Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive868

Continued Disruptive Editing and WP:PA

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

No action. Jehochman ^Talk 12:03, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

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P-123 (talk) reported by 23.27.252.213 (talk)

P-123 (talk) is under CBAN and TBAN sanctions. His talk page is being patrolled. He was blocked for editing other people's edit [1].

He is still editing other people's edits. [2] and [3]

He called another IP editor a troll (that IP is a troll,). This is WP:PA. [4]

P-123 needs to be blocked for 24 hours and asked to confirm that he will not continue his disruptive editing and WP:PA for which he has been blocked. 23.27.252.213 (talk) 11:52, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

How to deal with well-meaning user adding large chunks of illegible text in highly visible article?

The new user Quebecshoes is editing the highly visible article Montreal quite extensively. I believe the user is well-meaning, but some edits have been entirely in the form of unsubstantiated personal opinions (in 1980 ,The city "Ville De Montreal got cheap and stop investing and keeping this beautiful tradition.Less christmas decoration means less shopping, means less spirit.)[5] (Theres alot of Gay people that enjoy this neighborhood its very open and respected.) [6] (the neighborhood is verry vibrant with bars,clubs,restaurents,late night places,parks,festivals,Tam Tams every Sunday at Mont-Royal.) [7], (Students complain about tuition fees they should complain about this) [8] and so on. The other problem, already evident in those examples, is that the user writes very poor English. I'm not a native speaker myself and I don't think we should be too strict, but I fear this is too much. Some further examples Its also the area for artistic studios and gallery bistro cafes are verry popular here.
The Area aslo Part of the Biggest LGBT community in Canada and in The province of Quebec, There is 2 a Main streets s-Cathrine Ouest and Amherst
Montreal Is the most expansive of all canada and does not tolerate fees cheap for a day.
For 10$ is a day pas very ridiculous when you compare with other cities like Ottawa,Vancouver,Halifax,New york,Detroit,Boston and Toronto.
I don't know quite how to deal with this. I've reverted these edits because of the above reasons (strong personal opinions and improper English) and I've informed the user [9], but it just goes on. I do think the user has good intentions.Jeppiz (talk) 13:27, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

This is all just original research and, judging by the slightly off grammar, a slight competence issue. Hopefully, they'll respond to talk page messages and respond here too. Otherwise, a brief block for disruption may need to be levied. Blackmane (talk) 23:51, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

• Give them a little time to respond. If they don't, impose a block with the reason of block. They can then explain their behaviour. 23.27.252.213 (talk) 12:33, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Editor subverting "XfD" discussion and edit-warring

Unfortunately, it seems to be necessary to report the recent actions of User:Edokter. Please see:

• this "Redirects for discussion" thread;
• Edokter's contributions this morning (2 January 2015);
• This request and notification added to Edokter's talk page;
• Edokter's contributions this afternoon (2 January 2015);
• This warning added to Edokter's talk page (and, it now seems, promptly deleted).

Disappointedly, Sardanaphalus (talk) 15:43, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

You should have notified Edokter of your report here on his talk page with an ANI-notice template. Arfæst! 15:47, 2 January 2015 (UTC). I see that you have done it. Arfæst! 15:51, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Uh, they were notified before your message here. I, JethroBT ^{drop me a line} 15:49, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

It appears Edokter has been replacing a redirected set of templates under an RfD preemptively, as the discussion has not yet closed (in fact, it just started yesterday, by Edokter). I don't understand what the purpose of doing this is, other than the editor's assertion that these are completely redundant and There are too many [of them]. The justification is There is nothing wrong with restoring the previous template names to accommodate for a potential outcome from the template discussion. I'm sorry, but this rationale is not acceptable, and the behavior is disruptive as I see it. I, JethroBT ^{drop me a line} 15:55, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

There is also absoutely no justification for creating a redirect for an already existing template, purely out of personal preference (as I can't think of another reason), then going around slowly replacing all existing uses with the redirect! There is nothing wrong with restoring the previous version as I have done, RfD or not. I am well within my right to undo a series completely useless edits that otherewise only adds to the confusion in template naming, create a nightmare in template maintenance and landing everyone in navigation hell. Sardanaphalus has a history of bold template editing that do not always work, and his behaviour in moving templates has also created a slew of redirects that need to be cleaned up. I have warned him before about his template edits; I may well request that his template editor provileges be revoked. I have had it up to here about now. -- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}} 16:09, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Please allow the RfD to conclude. That is the proper venue for deciding whether to keep these redirects. I agree that your edits today have been disruptive. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 16:35, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Also agree, Edokter I understand you believe these redirects to be un-necessary. Let consensus make that decision, and if they are, then by all means, you have the rationale you need to remove them, but to do them ahead of time really looks disruptive. KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 16:50, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Not to mention Edokter is an administrator who should be well aware of the deletion procedures.--Jetstreamer ^Talk 21:55, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

• Edokter has continued removing/reverting these in spite of this discussion: [10], [11], [12]. What are you thinking, anyway? There's no urgency to remove all these, there is no compelling problem that requires this. I've seen no evidence of this "confusion" that Edokter repeatedly invokes. This is completely out of line for an administrator. I, JethroBT ^{drop me a line} 01:46, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
  • I don't understand why my actions are considered so controversial, while the initial change is not. But I will let the discussion run its course. Whatever the outcome, I do expect that (after the RfD) any reverts on my part are considered no more controversial; since the initial changes were unnecessary to begin with, I am simply restoring the previuous state. -- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}} 09:23, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
  • I'm concerned, with good faith, that Edokter's messages suggest he has lost good faith and perspective and may continue to edit disruptively. I note that reversions/deletions/etc seem prevalent in his editing history and I wonder how many are dogmatic rather than e.g. purely anti-vandalism. I don't know what actions have been found to transform such situations elsewhere in the past. Sardanaphalus (talk) 09:57, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
    • Don't try and make me the bad guy here... that is quite bad faith. Yes, I revert a lot; that is certainly not uncommon, for both editors and admins, and certainly not limited to fighting vandalism. Perhaps I should make some snide remarks about your edits being primarily in template space? My main problem with you is your lack of understanding the basic technical principles of Wikipedia; your multiple (too) bold edits of some core templates without testing them in a sandbox; reinstating your edits after a revert in the hope it will stick, showing a poor grasp of WP:BRD; your complete lack of regard for small or mobile displays judging from the many hardcoded CSS properties you use to fit your screen, and overuse of inline CSS in general to micro-manage template's display; moving templates multiple times leaving a slew of redirects behind for others to clean up; and the reason we're here: creating redirects to existing templates and then changing existing calls to the redirect. That is just bad practice; I see it as a very sneaky way to enforce a preferred name. If you really want a different name, request a move like anyone else would. I am very intolerant of these underhanded paractices and that is why I revert them. In short: you are a loose cannon in template space, and I have been monitoring you since I spotted you, reverting when necessary and averting some potential accidents along the way. I have had to explain some principles of template coding multiple times before you adhere to them, and sometimes you slip back into old habits.

Don't get me wrong... I really want to work with you, and not against you; I really hate that. But we both seem to have strong personalities and will result in an occasional clash. But Wikipedia should not suffer from that, and that is my first resposibility. I am one of the "technical" veterans here, and I know how MediaWiki works, quirks and all, and I am more then happy to share that knowledge. I do look out after most core templates here to ensure they are in proper working order. You happen to come across a few of them, so naturally you will find me acting slightly conservative around those templates. Div col is one of them. You have a lot of ideas, some of them good. Unfortunately, some of them not soo good, and when those are rejected, you tend to take it personally, which appears to others as being stubborn. So think about your contribution to these conflicts. Just know that Wikipedia is not your personal playground and your edits can have major impact on millions of readers. Once you adopt that mindset, I am absolutely positive we can have very pleasent cooporation. -- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}} 10:34, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

• I think there is some truth in User:Edokter's remarks. I have similar concerns with User:Sardanaphalus's editing. There is a number of points I would like to make.

1. Edoketer's reversions have not resulted in discussion on talk pages. Correction: some exchanges have taken place, but on user talk pages, which I didn't see. Suggestion: perhaps template talk pages might be more appropriate, if you want outside opinions? I have some of the concerned templates on my watchlist, and have seen some of the conflicts described. But I have not seen any discussions take place. Lets put it this way. Edokter has concerns about Sardanaphalus's editing on technical reasons, and reverts. Even if this is not correct, surely the thing to do would be to discuss the changes to allay Edokters concerns? But I have not seen this happen, and I really feel this needs to happen. The onus is on Sardanaphalus to do so, s/he is the one making the change. Instead Sardanaphalus sometimes seems to reinstate changes at a latter date, usually under the guise of fixing other perceived "problems". This is sneaky, and tantamount to edit warring.
2. Many of Sardanaphalus's edits feel they are purely change for the sake of change. There is an old adage: don't fix something that isn't broke. The reaason for this adage is that you are more likely to cause problems by fixing it then solve non-existent problems. For example, the recent moving of Template:Wikipedia Manual of Style to Template:Manual of Style. I mean really what is the point? It simply doesn't matter what it's called, the title is distinct from the page name. Moving the page is simply going to cause confusion on the matter by making things more complex, and possibly breaking things in the future.

Now I'm not saying all of Sardanaphalus's edits are without point. I'm sure many of them are constructive. But combined with an unwillingness to discuss other editor's fears I feel could cause danger to the project. Sardanaphalus really needs to justify his/her changes to a far greater extent. See correction above. ----Mrjulesd (talk) 11:48, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

• I'm willing to try to share what I make of the last two messages above, but I think doing so here would be taking this thread further off-topic. Unfortunately, it seems that there's still a fundamental misunderstanding. Sardanaphalus (talk) 12:20, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

• I understand your point. But please, after this ANI, try to make an effort to collaborate with Edokter. Nobody likes being reverted, but you've got to try to not take it personally, and try to build bridges between good faith editors. --Mrjulesd (talk) 12:41, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for your acknowledgement; I hope your sentiments also extend to Edokter. Yours, Sardanaphalus (talk) 12:33, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

• @Sardanaphalus: I'd like to correct my statement. I've checked both of your user talk pages, and it does seem many exchanges have taken place. I didn't see them as neither are on my watchlist, only some of the concerned templates were. Hence I'd like to adjust my statement accordingly. Apologies. Also my sentiments apply to you both. --Mrjulesd (talk) 14:52, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

The second point here, in the context of the rest of the thread (and previous discussions), indicates why much/most discussion has taken place away from where reversions were made. Regards, Sardanaphalus (talk) 09:20, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

I feel moved to lend my support to Edokter. As an editor of some 13 years' standing, I hope that support carries some weight.

As it seems to me, Edokter is being quite unjustifiably being cast in a bad light by Sardanaphalus ("I'm concerned, with good faith, that Edokter's messages suggest he has lost good faith and perspective and may continue to edit disruptively").

Sardanaphalus came to my attention when Edokter removed a hard-coded width from Theistic evolution, and had it re-inserted by Sardanaphalus, and was reverted by Edokter. This sent me to Sardanaphalus' user page to find out who it was who was so unaware of the deleterious implications of hard-coding widths. To my amazement (and amusement), I discovered that on a 1024 px wide display (which I use regularly for testing our own web layouts), the TOC on Sardanaphalus' own talk page overlaps and obscures content on the left, and his/her user page is a real jumble.

I pointed this out on Sardanaphalus' talk page. What ensued was a quite fruitless discussion - fruitless, because Sardanaphalus' pages remain stubbornly unreadable at widths narrower than his/her own 1680 px wide display..

So when Edokter talks to Sardanaphalus of "your complete lack of regard for small or mobile displays judging from the many hardcoded CSS properties you use to fit your screen", I say "Amen".

--Jmc (talk) 21:21, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

• Please consider the following:
  1. What prompted this thread;
  2. What you may have missed in the changes to Theistic evolution to which you refer;
  3. That my edit in response to those changes was to restore the status quo – whether "good" or "bad", hard-coded or not hard-coded, etc – due to 1.;
  4. That the context for that edit was indicated here;
  5. That I have indicated how User:Sardanaphalus has come to be and am aware that User talk:Sardanaphalus's ToC overlaps content (I am also aware both are in userspace and that the ToC has a [hide/show] link);
  6. That the discussion to which 4. and 5. refer is ongoing yet already (pre?)judged to be "fruitless";
  7. That there may have been some jumping to (or arriving with) conclusions, especially as regards "approach[ing] layout with the assumption that other readers also have 1680 px wide screens (and too bad if they don't" and your last sentence above;
  8. See 1. Are you sure, as an editor of some 13 years' standing, you wish to support this kind of activity..?

Sincerely, Sardanaphalus (talk) 23:34, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Didn't you read any of the comments I posted above? It clearly outlines the problems that I come across. You didn't address any of them. You have also been blissfully ignoring my proposal (on your talk page) to sent {{Div col}} to WP:Requested moves. And most of all, you continue to stick to old habits... Just now you have unilaterally updated {{Infobox university}}, adding more micro-managing inline CSS, without consulting the talk page; this has been a developing pattern for a long time. This type of template editing is heavily discouraged per WP:Template editor, and grounds for immediate removal of your template editor privileges. You have actually broken most of the rule outlined there already. Meanwhile, you perceive every revert and critisism on your actions as bad faith and question the other party's motives; a trait you now amply demonstrated below (stalking query).

Are you going to address the issues outlined above? -- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}} 14:07, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

• For the time being, I am witholding a response to the above for the same reason I am witholding a response to your most recent addition to that talkpage thread. (The response to your proposal there is the suggestion made in the first paragraph that follows it.) Sardanaphalus (talk) 18:41, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

I have removed Sardanaphalus's template editor right. Whether Edokter was right or not to make the reverts, it has been pretty clear for some time now that there are problems with Sardanaphalus's template editing. As well as the issues raised in this thread there have been several others raised on his talk page over the last few months. I've left a more detailed rationale at Sardanaphalus's talk page here. — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 11:02, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Query

Would the pattern of Edokter's behavio/ur toward my contributions – now, sadly, resumed – qualify as stalking..? Sardanaphalus (talk) 23:34, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

• While I'm not particularly knowledgeable on this area I'll attempt an answer. Any comments are welcome.

On the face of it Edokters behaviour suggests that of stalking. But there are a couple of caveats.

Firstly, you're probably aware of Edokter's admin status. Now admins quite often keep tabs on problem editors, I've seen comments suggesting this from admins. But whether you qualify for this is something I am uncertain of.

Secondly, Edokter has a strong interest in template editing, and I expect has many on his watchlist. Therefore you could expect him to keep tabs on many templates. So it is understandable for him to make reversions. Now, if he did the same reversions on your edits in an area he was not involved in, then that would make a stronger case for stalking.

About my earlier comments: do you think discussions on template talk pages, rather than user talk pages, might be helpful? Simply because you might have more input from concerned editors, meaning consensus building might be more likely. --Mrjulesd (talk) 14:24, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for your thoughts. Right now, I think it probably wisest if I don't respond further, except to reiterate my feeling that the patterns of those user talkpage discussions indicate it probably was best that they took place there rather than elsewhere. Sardanaphalus (talk) 18:41, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

No. The template talk page is always the first place to go to discuss changes and reverts. By going directly to my talk page, you only seek to convince me, and pre-emtively keep out input from third parties and that makes it impossible to create any kind of consensus. So you are the one making it personal. There is nothing to gain from that. -- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}} 20:33, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

• Some more context (bottom of diff). Sardanaphalus (talk) 12:57, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Closing without explanation or closing comment

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

My closure of the prior complaint as "No action" is self-explanatory. No action was required because the complaint didn't substantiate the need for a block. This IP is pushing the boundaries of WP:POINT and should now stop. Jehochman ^Talk 14:11, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

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IP editors feel discriminated against. Anonymous editors with an anonymous handle can ask a question to Jehochman ^Talk on his talk page but IP editors cannot. Why? If Wikipedia ask everyone to use their real names to make them accountable, then we will all comply. Until then do not use double standards.

In any case, Jehochman ^Talk, why did you close this [[13]] without action and without explanation or closing comment? and is it OK for me to edit other people's edits and call you a troll because I don't like your action or what you say to me? 23.27.252.213 (talk) 12:18, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

You were complaining about someone adding a simple comma to someone else's comment on their talk page, and calling an IP who you yourself admitted is a troll a troll, and you honestly think someone is going to be blocked over that? Why don't you do something constructive like helping us to build an encyclopedia rather than wasting people's time here? Squinge (talk) 12:37, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Squinge You misread my comment and I see why. I was quoting him saying "that IP is a troll". My mistake. I did not say that IP was a troll. I don't think he is. I am doing something constructive. That editor was blocked for editing other people's comments. He has not changed. he can delete another person's comment but cannot change it. Get it?. I am being constructive by reporting him. That's part of building an encyclopedia. 23.27.252.213 (talk) 12:43, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I get it - but it's only a comma! P-123 was never going to be blocked for a comma! Squinge (talk) 13:04, 7 January 2015 (UTC) (No, never mind. Squinge (talk) 13:17, 7 January 2015 (UTC))

I am glad you retracted your nonsense comment. Please refrain from making up your own wikipedia policy. It is not constructive. 23.27.252.213 (talk) 14:02, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

IP-hopping is likewise not constructive. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:04, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

• RESOLVED: I withdraw my complaint because P-123 showed that he now understands why he was previously blocked by PBS and reverted his edit of the other person's comment [14]. He also removed his personal attack WP:PA [15]. This can be closed after Jehochman ^Talk responds to my question. Thanks. 23.27.252.213 (talk) 12:54, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Overall disruptive user

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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User:Johnmylove has been overall disruptive. Seems to be engaged in making personal attacks,[16]-[17] violating copyrights and other types of disruptive editing.

With the a clear Pro-Christian agenda[18] and Anti-Hindu agenda,[19]-[20] this user has been engaged in insulting other editors throughout these years and engaged in making many other types of disruptive changes to different articles. It includes 'Parveen Babi', where the user has edit-warred for a long time and even after the detailed discussion, user seems to be lacking competence to understand our writing standards. Eventually removed my comment[21] from the discussion for no actual reason.

Like all articles and images of this user have been deleted, whether the subject of the article was non-notable or the article was violating copyrights. One of the article(Wesley Degree College) still remains, that I had nominated for deletion.[22] It had been ripped off from wesleydegreecollege.com/aboutus.htm. Even the current version is violating copyrights. While the 3 votes are in favor of deletion, I would recommend a quick deletion because it is still violating copyrights. Bladesmulti (talk) 16:12, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

I've also given him a warning. By the way, Blades, do we happen to be the same person? I just bring it up, before somebody else does. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 16:17, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Insert ref for Johnmylove (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Johnmylove, please can you present some kind of indication that you are not here just to push various religiously oriented POVs. On a personal level I would advise you to turn to your own religious teaching about treatment of others such as the good Samaritan and the like and on topics on not judging etc. should they apply.

Bladesmulti you will also need to place a notice of this AN/i on Johnmylove's talk page. GregKaye 18:59, 5 January 2015 (UTC) struck text just before this date stamp GregKaye 19:23, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Have you actually seen the user' talk history? I already had, right after I had started this section.

After so many warnings about the violation of copyrights, infringement is still largely visible, like whole article has been copied from the link that I have suggested above. Bladesmulti (talk) 00:01, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

• Was recently warned by Bishonen to refrain from making such comments on contributors.[23] Some of the recent examples of the same disruptive attitude..

Claims about me that:

He added Vulgar criticism against Christian and Jesus pages...

notorious for adding anti christian statements on Christian pages...

I have just removed them, as those were added recently by him....[24]

Recent changes:

Seem to me like heathen, Indian pagan, Indian stone worshipper, elephant worshipper, mischief.[25]

Who cares what a Hindoo thinks![26]

Bladesmulti (talk) 15:55, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Nice guy. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 16:44, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

I just took alook at his contributions-list: [ https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Christianity_in_India&diff=prev&oldid=579966048 diff] "Sitush is a Hindu Fundamentalist, a garbage community of sort and Jobless man who edits Wikipedia pages 24 hours without any work, and there is constant attack on Pages related to Christians of India by him. Mind your own business!"

Not a nice guy at all. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 16:50, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

• After a while, long term low grade chronic bigotry becomes worse than high intensity acute bigotry. Blocked indef. If he wants to try to convince someone he's going to stop criticizing other editors based on their perceived religion and ethnicity, he can do it inside an unblock template. --Floquenbeam (talk) 16:51, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks Floq. Bladesmulti (talk) 17:01, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Anonymous editor who only vandalises and trolls

My eye has fallen on User:96.251.137.43, who has been editing here for a year, and has contributions which are almost exclusively apologism for racism, although they're now branching out into transphobia. The entire user history is of interest, but these diffs are the most striking: [27], [28], [29], [30], [31]. I propose a block per WP:NOTHERE. AlexTiefling (talk) 09:00, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

@AlexTiefling: That's an IP address, the best we can do is short 24-36 hour blocks when they begin to vandalise or cause disruption. These can be requested via the usual method at WP:AIV. If there's any evidence that the same person is using more than one IP address, across one or more ranges, then we could look at a range-block, but that would be unusual for low level vandalism that should be reverted and ignored. Nick (talk) 12:11, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Some IPs are relatively stable. There's no reason it cant be blocked for longer if it appears that this is the only user on the IP. Jehochman ^Talk 12:21, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

This was my thought. It's a pretty consistent pattern. AlexTiefling (talk) 12:30, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Static IPs can be blocked for longer, but the IP in question is a dynamic Verizon IP address from their fibre broadband service, which always runs the risk of it being reassigned to someone else wishing to edit anonymously through that IP. It would need to be blocked, realistically, for 12 months or longer, to prevent even a small amount of vandalism. I suspect if you look through the rest of the range (96.224.0.0-96.255.255.255) then the same person will have been considerably busier vandalising, but short of blocking the whole range, they'll have been vandalising across far too large a range of IPs far to slowly to really worry too much about it. Revert and ignore is the sensible option here. Nick (talk) 15:15, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

I would be very wary of calling this editor a vandal and a troll. They may hold unpopular opinions and not be particularly good at editing here, but the user has been warned only twice with two very unhelpful templates. Maybe instead of running to ANI, discuss with the editor what they are doing wrong. Also you are obligated to notify the user that you have posted here. CombatWombat42 (talk) 23:25, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Agree with CW42. Further, the last of the "most striking" diffs, this one, doesn't seem racist, transphobic, or anything-ist. (It's unnecessary, and if done it needs a period, but it's OK.) It's definitely not vandalism, and its trollery is unobvious to say the least. It's not obvious to me that this person is an asset to WP, but the same thing could be said for thousands of people. Let's not further dilute the meanings of "vandalism" or "troll" (let alone use either for "putting in odds and ends with which we disagree"). -- Hoary (talk) 15:46, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Harrassment by Scarface1812 (talk · contribs)

Repeated replacing of User sub-page content with a copy of Users own deleted page. 1, 2, 3, 4. Note that I took no part in the Mfd of the users page but have taken part in Mfds of other similar user pages (which this user has contributed to) which have been deleted. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 09:12, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Harrasment, let me laught... who do this before.... you and other wiki bullies who don't have anything else to do...

In the past you attacked my work on supercentenarians saying it is a user page...

What's yours?

I don't like to play like that... but some person makes me play as you did. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scarface1812 (talk • contribs) 09:18, 7 January 2015

Two wrongs do not make a right. I propose both users should be blocked. Weegeerunner (talk) 22:44, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

I don't understand. What wrong did DerbyCountyinNZ do here, and why do you think they deserve a block? Also, for future reference, new comments usually go below older comments. Ca2james (talk) 00:16, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

This editor had also recreated their user page after it was deleted following an MfD discussion. The user page was deleted again after I tagged it for speedy deletion (speedy deletion tag notice: [32]). Ca2james (talk) 13:46, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Unauthorized bot

• 198.102.153.2 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

IP is making edits that reorder template parameters, with frequency up to 8 pages per minute. Fortunately it doesn't appear to be vandalism, at least at first sight. Manul ~ talk 20:26, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Given the articles concerned all relate to settlements in Turkey and are alphabetical, it looks like they've just opened a bunch of tabs and copy pasted the edits. Not hard to do and really, with a fast enough connection and typing speed they could do double that. Blackmane (talk) 22:13, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Given that the IP geolocates to Sandia National Laboratories, I say let 'em edit -- Diannaa (talk) 00:21, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Flagging a legal threat

User:Rachelmartin2015 has removed content from the Monsoon Accessorize article, claiming to be acting on behalf of the company and making the unhelpfully threatening edit summary of "taken off incorrect and libilious information about our company - we will sue if re-edited". Per WP:LEGAL I have raised this here. --McGeddon (talk) 17:16, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Before the admins indef the user, be sure the user's complaints are without merit. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:17, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

WP:NOTHERE may also apply in this case. However, we should allow the user to comment here first. George Edward C – Talk – Contributions 17:21, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

The merit of the edits are irrelevant - the threats are obviously designed to create a chilling effect where the editor should be attempting to seek consensus instead. That's the whole point of WP:NLT. Blocked. §FreeRangeFrog^croak 17:22, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

That's not entirely true, as it's important for Wikipedia editors to get their sourcing ducks in a row. Once that's done, then you've got a ready-made response for the one making legal threats. And of course he stays blocked until or if he recants and disavows his threat. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:02, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

The edit that removed the criticism section was probably reasonable. It referenced the Savar building collapse but did not have any direct relevance to the company. I haven't read the sources yet so at the moment I'm presuming that they don't mention the company either. As such, a first glance at the TOC would make the reader assume the company was linked to that tragedy. The legal threat is unfortunate, but as both Huon and FreeRangeFrog have discussed on the talk page, it would be possible for Rachelmartin2015 to be unblocked, and join the talk page discussion, provided they retract the threat. Blackmane (talk) 01:51, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

User refactoring others' comments and edit warring

Qxukhgiels (talk · contribs) has taken it upon himself to remove and strike through comments he disagrees with at a move move discussion he proposed at Talk:Woodstock. See: [33] [34] [35] and [36]. -- Calidum 21:34, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm making an agreement not to do this anymore, as I've already made three reverts. But I see this accomplishing little. The other comments are irrelevant oppositions, and I know what WP:TPO says, but I've WP:IAR'd here. I see nothing wrong with that.Qxukhgiels (talk) 21:39, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Also, at 170 & 171 I removed a personal attack by Calidum that wasn't even an opposition. But again, I'm not stiking anymore comments.Qxukhgiels (talk) 21:41, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

• @Qxukhgiels: I am not sure how you interpreted Calidum'a comment as a personal attack in the least. Sure, it was sarcastic, but in no way was it a personal attack. Steel1943 (talk) 21:44, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

"That was a nice try," is sarcastice and is near borderline, but is an attack, as most would interpret it as offencive & uncivil not to mention this user has done this before. Compare to, say, "fucking do this." That's not an attack, but is borderline. Nothing is lost removing it, anyways.Qxukhgiels (talk) 21:47, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

• @Qxukhgiels: Okay, it was borderline, but that still doesn't give you the right to remove their comment. In fact, if a comment like that was directed towards me, I would have actually left the comment there so that the proof of its existence is clear on the page and viewable to everyone instead of being lost in the page's edit history. (My $0.02 there.) Steel1943 (talk) 22:42, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes, but if it is removed, we can still look up the diff. Per WP:RUC, would it be okay to strike that comment?Qxukhgiels (talk) 22:45, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

• @Qxukhgiels: In my opinion, in regards to striking out comments, the rule I follow only allows striking out of the following two types of comments, provided that I also provide a description directly following the comment I strikeout:

1. My own comments
2. Comments made by sockpuppets, provided that they have already been declared a sockpuppet on another venue (such as WP:SPI.)

...Other than that, I would say that it is never okay to remove a comment unless WP:TPO allows it. (And, in the case of the comment you removed, per WP:TPO, I would consider that comment more along the lines of "uncivil" than a "personal attack", which WP:TPO specifically states should not be removed.) Steel1943 (talk) 22:58, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Okay, here we go. The problem I have with those comments is that they simply reference the previous move discussions (1, 2). At the current discussion, I am discussing moving to Woodstock (festival), when at the previous discussions, the requests were for different titles- Woodstock Festival and Woodstock Music & Art Fair. So, it is not a rehash of the previous discussions as some users have expressed. It's basically a use of WP:LASTTIME. Yes, I know that applies chiefly to deletion discussions (I created that redirect in fact, so I know), but its basically the same situation. That is definitely not a moratorium on the move possibility.Qxukhgiels (talk) 21:55, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

I just don't see how this festival that took place forty-five years ago is the WP:PTOPIC for everyone.. True, it may get the most hits, but it definitely would not be the dictdef (although Woodstock is a proper name). For instance people living in cities called Woodstock (several which are a decent size) that would be their PT. Similar discussions have been raised per the hit motivation at Something (Beatles song) & Yesterday (Beatles song). Most people would not expect to find these articles at "Something" & "Yesterday." The same thing goes for Woodstock. Nothing is lost adding the word "festival" in parentheses; that implies that "Woodstock" is the common name; "Woodstock festival," which most of the irrelevant arguments echo, does not.Qxukhgiels (talk) 22:01, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Irrespective of the substance in the article, apart from blatant personal attacks, copyright and BLP violations, you have no right to modify or remove another editor's comments. If it's not germane to the discussion, you could hat or collapse the comment. If an editor chooses to reference a previous move discussion in their !vote, that is their choice and not yours to moderate. Blackmane (talk) 22:08, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

I've made no personal attacks BLP, or copyvios at that article. But I've applied, I'm going to say it, WP:IAR there. But I'm, once again, not going to reinstate the strikethroughs.Qxukhgiels (talk) 22:19, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

I've not said you had done so, I said that you can only remove such edits, irrespective of who made them. As you've agreed to not continue to edit war over the strikethroughs, I believe this can be closed. Blackmane (talk) 22:38, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

I think the issue here is larger. I've explained below. Egsan Bacon (talk) 23:23, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Sorry for the misunderstanding. Like I said, I didn't think this would accomplish anything.Qxukhgiels (talk) 22:41, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm glad that Calidum brought this here. I believe the disruption here is larger than just striking other's comments. To begin with, it should be noted that the move request in question is making the same argument as one that was closed less than three months ago, on October 11, which was also started by Qxukhgiels [37]. (In both cases, the reasoning given was that there are many places called "Woodstock", specifically focusing on a claim that only people in the US thought of this Woodstock.) Despite several editors pointing this out, Qxukhgiels repeatedly insisted they were not the same. [38] (Edit summary: "dammit!"), [39], [40], [41], [42] He also called one argument "dickish". Then there was the striking of other's comments covered above. Also included with the striking was a rant about "self-centred Americans" [43] perhaps demonstrating the reason behind all this disruption. (See also this earlier comment, where they tell someone to "think outside the US".) And what to make of their most recent comment [44] on the talk page? ("They [the closer] better think about it and not just act." - emphasis in original - in response to being told "The closer will take their own action to determine the weight of those votes.") Ominous. Is it promising more disruption if the closer gets it "wrong"? Egsan Bacon (talk) 23:23, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Firstly, with regards to Calidum, they really should have brought this up on Qxukhgiels' talk page before bringing it here. All I see are a back and forth of templates and 'no real discussion before Calidum came running to ANI. Secondly, with regards to the move request, that may or may not be disruptive. A three month wait to determine a new consensus is not unreasonable. If Qxukhgiels had asked for another move request within weeks or even days after the previous discussion closed down then that might seem disruptive. The move request should run its course and if the consensus is against Qxukhgiels then they should abide by it. Blackmane (talk) 23:28, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

@Egsan Bacon:- I don't want this to escalate, but your being a bit of a dick yourself. Your repeated claims that essentially "slapping on parentheses" makes no difference appears to be a snow job. The title "Woodstock Festival" would imply that this is the WP:COMMONNAME, which it is not, and "Woodstock (festival)" implies that the article is about a festival called "Woodstock" that is not a WP:PTOPIC (I don't believe it is). So what I used the same arguments? At the last request I incorrectly concluded that "Woodstock Festival" was the common name, and I used that as an implicit argument. The "self centred Americans" argument is about Americans to whom the festival appears to be the primary topic and where I am encouraging them to think outside of their own little world (I should probably apologise for the tones). The move request was not disruptive. This is not the same as, say, nominating an article for deletion a second time after it was decided speedy keep. Just because you wholeheartedlly oppose the article being moved does not mean it shouldn't be moved and therefore doesn't make multiple move requests disruptive. I mean, can you not even see why some would oppose this title? If not then its probably because you've grown up knowing this as your PT- your opposition statement is a sign of being self-centred. WP:WORLDWIDE may be an essay, but it does prove a point. You might as well stop arguing here; this ANI request has already accomplished as much as it's going to. Qxukhgiels (talk) 00:50, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

• Comment Regarding the refactoring and editing others' comments, that should not be happening unless 1. It is an unambiguous (note unambiguous, not 'Oh I see it this way and there's room to disagree'.) personal attack, copyright violation, BLP violation or the like. It is not permitted to redact, strike, remove, or remove others' comments for 'irrelevant arguments', or because someone responded to you in a less than snappy way. It's a violation of WP:TPO and is a form of refactoring without the person's consent. Now there are exceptions, for example, redacting someone !voting twice in the same discussion, to avoid the illusion of two !votes, or the examples I cited. Qxukhgiels, those examples do not apply here and I'm sure I and others would appreciate if you stop trying to redact others' posts on the talk page. Tutelary (talk) 00:59, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
• (edit conflict) @Qxukhgiels: You are making it more and more difficult to justify your actions, as you seem to still be removing or editing other editors' comments, as you did here in your most recent edit on this page: [45]. Sure, you edited your comment and added a comment, but you also removed part of Egsan Bacon's comment. Steel1943 (talk) 01:03, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

@Steel1943:- sorry about that. I was going to copy-paste that and argue the citing of that summary as disruptive (if that was what he was doing), but decided not to. If he's not citing the ES as disruptive, I don't know what it's supposed to mean, as its not uncivil toward other editors. I'll won't revert it. And Tutelary, I've agreed not to do this anymore, did you miss that? I was using WP:IAR, but have decided to stop.Qxukhgiels (talk) 01:15, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm boldly closing this as the source of the original complaint has been settle with Qxukhgiels agreeing not to do it anymore. The rest is a content dispute. Blackmane (talk) 01:23, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

With respect, Blackmane, I don't think the issue of Qxukhgiels's WP:BLUDGEON-ing of the conversation, overly-aggressive tone, and the comments about "dickishness" and self-centeredness - which they're still doing above - qualify as a "content dispute", and I'd really prefer to leave this open for an admin to look at. The second move request so soon after the first is just a part of the overall disruption going on here. If it wasn't for everything that came after, I would have never considered it alone something to be discussed at ANI. Egsan Bacon (talk) 01:49, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Fair enough. In that case, it may be wise to await for other editors to comment rather than continuing the dispute. Blackmane (talk) 03:26, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Unauthorized Bot Use

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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User:HasteurBot is removing useful categories from all AfC articles which was not approved in its bot request. I found this category quite useful and find it harmful that it is being removed where it is needed. Thanks! EoRdE6^{(Come Talk to Me!)} 06:19, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Off-wiki legal threats?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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A new editor contacted me on my talk page stating that they had been the target of a legal threat by the subject of an article - I'm not sure for what, as they didn't go into the specifics, but the editor had added a critical statement and an incomplete AfD nomination, and then removed the addition after being contacted by the subject, apparently. I've got no opinion on the addition other than that it seems that it wasn't sourced correctly, or whether the article should be sent to AfD, but is there anything that we can and/or should do about this? The editor has indicated that they do not feel comfortable editing further. ansh666 21:17, 4 January 2015 (UTC) (Sorry for not including any links or notifications or anything, but I really don't know what to do here with respects to privacy, etc. Also, I'm not watching, ping me if anything important comes up.)

This is similar to what happened at Yank Barry, where the subject was personally attempting to sue Wikipedia editors. One person used their real name while editing and they were personally named in said lawsuit. However, said lawsuit was dismissed. For specifics, Tracey_Jackson was nominated for deletion by User:KatieVagnino and was subsequently threatened for lawsuit by the subject and ultimately decided not to continue the afd even though it was misnominated. Additionally, it seems that the subject also threatened the editor over material -inside- the article-. This is very troubling. Tutelary (talk) 21:58, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm actually not sure if the legal threat was related to the AfD or not, actually, as I removed the tag first per protocol (it was redlinked). Thanks for notifying, by the way. ansh666 00:32, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

So apparently proper procedure is to be ignored. Cool.... ansh666 19:49, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

In the interest of factual correctness: the Yank Barry suit was not dismissed (an action of the court) but withdrawn (an action of the person filing the suit.) And more than one editor who edited under recognizable names was sued. --Nat Gertler (talk) 20:34, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Hi, this is the editor in question, User:KatieVagnino. It's the AfD nomination they want to sue me for. But as other editors who have now been editing the page have noted, the page has some issues, so I don't think it was out of line for me to nominate it (and the irony is that I didn't nominate it correctly). Just to be safe, I sent an e-mail to legal at wikimedia outlining the situation and asking for advice. I have not been formally sued as of yet, but still want to have my ducks in a row if it comes to that. KatieVagnino (talk) 01:31, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Okay, if you emailed legal, I guess that's the best we can do for now...sorry that nobody else seems interested in helping. ansh666 23:30, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

• I'll work on cleaning the page. Hopefully Ms Jackson won't threaten me with a lawsuit. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡)
• I've cleaned the promotional prose out of the article. I'm going to post a light warning on the talk page for the original editor since this does give off the impression that it was done by a paid editor. If he is then that's fine as long as he openly states this on his user page. I see that he says freelance writer, but if he's a paid editor then he needs to write that as well - freelance writer is a bit too vague. In any case, I have found enough to where Jackson would pass notability guidelines so it's in no danger of deletion. It's just that the knee jerk reaction by whomever talked to Katie really bothers me- it's really poor form for someone to threaten to sue someone because the page was temporarily tagged (incompletely) for deletion and it's even poorer form for them to further threaten the person because they posted a negative review. (sighs) If I do get a nastygram then I'll send it to legal as well. I wish people wouldn't do this- it can often backfire ala the Streisand Effect and they get the type of attention they were trying to sue in order to avoid. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 09:57, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Unfortunate User Conduct

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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DocumentError (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I've been biting my tongue but there is only so much that a person can take. I've avoided this unpleasant user for months and wish they would leave me alone. I've previously been very clear I wish to have no interaction with them and asked that they stay away. Without going into older misconduct, here is the activity over the last day or so.

Wild unsubstantiated accusations - often edited and reedited over each other

1. [46]
2. [47] [48] asking for 1 year topic ban
3. [49]
4. [50]
5. [51]
6. [52]
7. [53]
8. [54]
9. [55]
10. [56]
11. [57]
12. [58]
13. [59]
14. [60]
15. [61]
16. [62]
17. [63]
18. [64]

Stalking and Canvassing editors I'm currently interacting with

1. [65]
2. [66]
3. [67]
4. [68]
5. [69]
6. [70]
7. [71]

Reordering my comments out of sequence and reverting an attempt to hat his off topic attacks

1. [72]
2. [73]

I'm not looking to engage in a debate and may choose not to respond to anything he says in this thread after I start it. I just want to put this activity out there rather then let him continue to spread unsubstantiated allegations about me. Happy New Year. Legacypac (talk) 03:22, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

It doesn't seem that bad to me. I guess you could ask for an interaction ban if you wanted. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 08:43, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time to read through all those NinjaRobotPirate. The monthly ANI he files against me usually averages 20-40 raw diffs, most of which tend to just be random comments culled from my edit history (like in junior high when you double-space your book report to plus-up the page count). DOCUMENT★ERROR 09:12, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

(inserted) Question: Can you provide diffs to the monthly ANi for evaluation (just the 3 last months will do, but feel free to provide more months). Legacypac (talk) 03:00, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Oh boy, here we go. So ... I have had zero interaction with LegacyPAC (LP) for months until today when, as an uninvolved editor, I commented on one of the numerous ANIs he has filed against other editors to make the WP:BOOMERANG observation that LP had savaged this editor with comments like "Are you a child?" and "your writing contains child like mistakes and your maturity level seems childlike" before he dragged the unfortunate newbie to ANI. [74]

After I made that observation, LP went to Requests for Permissions (!?) to declare that me observing that he had made a personal attack itself constituted a personal attack. Of course he didn't ping me when he started accusing me there, as he should have (my interjection into that sans-ping thread about me is one of the things he has characterized above as "stalking" [sic] him). MusikAnimal declined to give LP rollback permissions and archived his attacks against me at RfP, apparently prompting him to come here and file the fourth of the many ANIs he's hit me with (none of which have gone anywhere).

If anyone has specific questions about any specific diff above, don't hesitate to ping me, but I'm frankly exhausted at having to periodically spend hours pounding out defenses to these as he's clearly using the ANI as some kind-of cudgel to warn editors not to "cross" him. Corriebertus, Lukeno94, Mbcap, and countless other editors have been on the receiving (or observing) end of LegacyPAC's aggressive style of interaction and I hope will endorse my reasoning in not continuing to devote time to replying to these walls of text. LP has recently come off a one-year topic ban imposed by Drmies for similarly whirling dervish behavior [75] and dealing with his drama just isn't on my to-do list for today. DOCUMENT★ERROR 08:55, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

• Minor correction: I just closed that thread; the BLP ban was imposed by Salvio giuliano. Carry on, Drmies (talk) 15:35, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

• bigger correction - the BLPBAN was imposed in May 2013 and served out with zero incident during or since related to BLPs. Legacypac (talk) 17:07, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

I think it may be worth having a look into Legacypac's behaviour at Outing certain people at certain times when at the same time allegations against them have been made. Though i will add that We do not discriminate on age Lor^Chat 09:38, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Can someone explicitly remind me where I had a negative interaction with Legacypac? I've definitely observed some pretty inappropriate behaviour, and I evidently voted in favour of the topic ban, but I don't remember a direct interaction with Legacypac that was overtly negative. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 11:09, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

I apologize, I actually meant Martin451 (I get the two of you confused as you have similar rainbow sigs). Technically you have "been on the ... observing end of LegacyPAC's aggressive style of interaction," as you noted here [76] that I've seen Legacypac get away with these sorts of things far too often. They should consider themselves lucky it's not a lengthy block, to be honest. but, TBH, I didn't mean to invoke you at all and was thinking of a different editor entirely. My apologies again, feel free to strike your name from my comment, as well as this entire note, if you like. DOCUMENT★ERROR 11:59, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

There has been a ridiculous amount of arguing, minor personal attacks and accusations of sockpuppetry by so many people against so many others that I have completely lost track on Talk:Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant. Accusations of breaking policy are thrown by editors and called harassment/personal attacks which are responded likewise recursively ("his accusation of a personal attack is a personal attack"). Ridiculous amounts of ANIs for one talk page. 9356 words of argument over the question of POV in the title with arguments still going on about whether we should have a NPOV template in the article header. Pretty much every single WP:(insert something here) policy referred to which may or may not be playing policies off against each other. This isn't aimed particularly at any user or users. Is there some way we can get some kind of mediation to deal with the loss of good faith between pretty much everyone and pretty much everyone else which won't just make things worse? John Smith the Gamer (talk) 10:05, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Just for the record, I stopped editing ISIL articles three months ago after LegacyPac denounced me as an "Iranian anti-American" terrorist [sic] [77] after which my userpage started being vandalized by IP editors threatening to "nuke" me (here and etc. [78]). (Amusingly, my rather muted objection to LP calling me an "anti-American" is among the diffs he's listed above in his ANI against me ...). So this issue stems from my decision to make a BOOMERANG point about 5 ANIs up as an uninvolved editor and not anything related to the slow car wreck at the ISIL articles. I've been full-time on Wikipedia:WikiProject Fraternities and Sororities since self-extricating from the ISIL mess. DOCUMENT★ERROR 10:24, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

(inserted) Question: I never called you a terrorist at the linked page - or anywhere that I recall - so can you provide a correct link to my alleged calling you a terrorist? Legacypac (talk) 03:00, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

DOCUMENT★ERROR As you know I recently got in contact with you privately which was really in response to your reference to the "poisonous atmosphere" at ISIL and to another comment that you made in regard to toxicity. Honestly, if you make uncited and unreferenced remarks such as this I don't think that you should find it surprising that issues are brought to administration. In one comment you say "A lot of us are at our wit's end". Who? How? Please, if you want to make accusation about an editor, collect your references and present. I see inference from you regarding the supposed conduct of Legacypac on other users pages. What efforts have you made to address issues directly? I have looked through User talk:Legacypac and through history of deleted content and see no record of any confrontation of an accusation of being called "anti-American" or anything else. If you make an accusation you have to support. There are enough battles going on in the world without unnecessary conflict here. Please edit directly, deal with problems directly and don't canvass. While we don't agree on all issues, the things that I have generally seen Legacypac write have been justified. Where are your justifications? The last presentation of your talk page with a large content of input by admin PBS is found here. GregKaye 14:46, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

#1 All the diffs you've requested have always been included above, including the one to LP calling me an anti-American [79]. Diffs are indicated by numbers in brackets, or purple text to show a wikilink. Let me know if you are still having trouble finding anything and I'll be happy to post them to your Talk page to avoid any unnecessary scrutiny you might face as this brings the subject back into the ISIL topic area under which (I think?) you're currently on a no-warning topic ban (forgive me if I'm wrong, there seems to be a rather complex series of blocks and bans going on here).

#2 I'd strongly advise you visit LP's diffs he's labeled as "canvassing" before staking your flag in them as they are just random links to an edit discussion in which I was participating about the name of a Serbian town [80] (the article's primary author is on my watchlist as I've recently pre-nom'ed them for Admin). Like many of LP's "diffs" they are just random pulls from my edit history that don't relate to the salacious headers he's assigned ("Stalking," "Canvassing," etc.) I guess he thinks if he throws out enough random diffs an Admin will just assume guilt by volume of paper without clicking on them. (see also NinjaRobotPirate's comment above) If you now feel it's appropriate to remove your comment, I have no problem if you also delete mine. No hard feelings. Best - DOCUMENT★ERROR 14:50, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

DOCUMENT★ERROR:

#1 (note: this is not the first issue as I have presented but within the sequence of your response) I have asked, please, if you have accusations please give a direct presentation of diffs. Please don't just point to threads as if to say that there is something over there. It doesn't carry favour.

#2 In the listing of diffs entitled stalking and canvassing I consider the third and seventh diff to be very clear cases of canvassing. Some of the other cases I also think may well fit a description of stalking. You have mentioned supposedly salacious headers:"Stalking," "Canvassing," etc. You have used the uncited slurs "poisonous" and "toxic". Please take some perspective and some responsibility. For the good of the editing environment such uncited representations of other editors and other editing activities have to stop. Please either substantiate what you say or say nothing.

#3 repeating: You stated, "A lot of us are at our wit's end". Who? How?

#4 repeating: What efforts have you made to address issues directly? ...

issue, the thing that I am now most incensed about is that, after you raised contention of Legacypac rearranging comments rearranging of comments here, you then edited my AN/I edit here so as to cause the last paragraph of my text to slip into the tail of the paragraph above. This was the text that presented the strongest content that I presented: "The last presentation of your talk page with a large content of input by admin PBS is found here." I find it appalling that you accuse an editor of an activity and then do the same in an important Wikipedia location.

GregKaye 18:57, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, I consider another editor using terms like "cyber-terrorist," "your edits are childlike" and "anti-American" [81] [82] [83] to describe other editors to be "poisonous and toxic." I stand by that. DOCUMENT★ERROR 21:51, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

The first ref shows a lot of conflict both ways. Legacypac makes the uncited accusation "DocumentErrors edits from a clear pro-Iran, anti-American POV". I would personally like to see those accusations either justified or struck. There was no use of I think and this was stating opinion as fact.

The second ref shows Legacypac to either have communicated in blatant insensitive error asking an editor, who had come to his/her page to challenge a edit, with the question "are you a child?" or had been directly rude.

The third ref includes the text "Cyber-terrorists" which acted as a link to a thread now located at: IP NOTHERE except to promote ISIL in which "Pakistan based IP User:175.110.139.126" was banned for 6 months by Bishonen.

This is on one side. On the other side User:DocumentError you have pretty much ignored most of the issues I have raised. Please give response. GregKaye 23:11, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

I don't want to waste a lot of space refuting his rants, so I'll point to a simple case - easy to see - were he says above "LegacyPac denounced me as an "Iranian anti-American" terrorist [sic] [84]" but at the link you will see I never referred to him as a terrorist (there or anywhere). But DocumentError goes on to say at the link "If I had more time at the moment I would file a separate ANI about this as you've already been cautioned about race-baiting, LP, more times than I can possibly count. " which is an outright fabrication and we've never seen that ANi yet.The actual exchange, (note the poisoning of another editor against me) was:

I understand from DocError that Legacypac has had his way with DocError in scaring him away from editing certain pages by screaming and threatening him and whatever other aggressive interaction and unilateral editing style. If that would be true, we would seem to have in Legacypac an editor that basically threatens Wikipedia. --Corriebertus (talk) 10:18, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

DocumentErrors edits from a clear pro-Iran, anti-American POV and did engage in forum shopping, but his efforts to push the Iran intervention in Iraq over the American-led one were largely unsuccessful. I'll go so far to say that DocumentError specializes in error - I and quite a few other editors have spent far to much time refuting his erroneous accusations. I ignore him and yet he continues to HOUND me damaging my reputation (which is my job, thank-you very much). Legacypac (talk) 19:53, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Comment inserted by another editor

Thanks for denouncing me as "anti-American" (whatever that means) once again. I imagine we're just two more comments away from you declaring that I'm "pro-terrorist" and a "cyber-terrorist" as you've accused other editors who have disagreed with you. (here and elsewhere [85]) DOCUMENT★ERROR 21:29, 6 January 2015 (UTC) True, Corriebertus. This latest ANI is the result of me sticking up for a new editor whom he'd been ripping into. DOCUMENT★ERROR 21:51, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

And earlier in that discussion: "I think at this point Legacypac and @DocumentError: could benefit from a self imposed two way IBAN. ...-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 19:53, 24 November 2014 (UTC)" which I replied I was operating under such a self imposed IBAN, which I've continued to do until yesterday when I responded to DocumentError's breaking into a thread where I was seeking some friendly assistance for a new editor. He then proceeded comment on me on various talk pages as detailed above. I want the wild accusations and misrepresentations about me to stop - I've refuted them over and over but they just keep coming from his keypad. I have no idea what value this editor sees in stirring up trouble. I've lived to the self imposed IBAN. He has not. Legacypac (talk) 17:43, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Legacypac you initial edit was "No one threatened DocumentError, but he was editing from a clear pro-Iran, anti-American POV and did engage in forum shopping, but his efforts to push the Iran intervention in Iraq over the American-led one were largely unsuccessful. ..." See diff the wording was different from that you posted here. Did you change it subsequently and before another replied? -- PBS (talk) 18:18, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I expanded my comment here before anyone replied. Legacypac (talk) 18:25, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

More error above - Gregkeye is not the subject of an ISIL topic ban. Legacypac (talk) 19:10, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Question for DocumentError [86] here you say that unnamed (but possibly you mean me) editor(s) called you "an anti-Semite, anti-American, radical anti-American, pro-terrorist, cyber-terrorist, raving anti-American terrorist nutjob, raghead, liberal, etc. " and you added specific terms through a series of edits, like you found more of them. This is a very serious charge against whichever editor you are referring to. Can you specify which editor you think made these comments about you and can you provide diffs where these very specific statements are directed at you? Legacypac (talk) 19:23, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Propose a Community IBAN

Since a voluntary interaction ban between User:Legacypac and User:DocumentError either has fallen apart or was never in place, and since these two editors keep coming back to attack each other, it is time to impose a community interaction ban on them. The usual ban exceptions should apply, but we should note (since one editor tried recently to wikilawyer around a ban) that filing a WP:AN or WP:ANI thread against the other editor is a ban violation, not a ban exception. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:41, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

• Support as proponent who is tired of this feuding. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:41, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

I appreciate the sentiment - I'm here only because the unfounded accusations are way out of hand. If some editor actually called DocumentError a "raving anti-American terrorist nutjob" they should be dealt with. If in fact no editor said that, he should be sanctioned. My post here is not an attempt to bicker but done under WP:CONDUCTDISPUTE Legacypac (talk) 20:54, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

• Comment I appreciate the sentiment, I'd just note that prior to yesterday I had no interaction with Legacypac for 3 months; I have avoided him religiously for the sake of my own sanity. I happened to be in ANI yesterday and saw him using yet another new editor as his personal chew toy and made the mistake of sticking up for the guy after LP was ripping into him with "Are you a child?" and "your writing contains child like mistakes and your maturity level seems childlike." [87]. The savaging that's ensued was what I got out of it. As I told PBS I don't plan to make that mistake again. When LP begins his daily ANIs again tomorrow against a new editor I'll just bite my lip and keep walking. DOCUMENT★ERROR 21:35, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Question: Why did DocumentError just insert his comment in the middle of my comment in a way that makes my comment quite unclear now ? Legacypac (talk) 21:42, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

I believe the fact that the comment was indented but the second was not. This may have led him to believe that they were not intended to be connected and that the correct way to respond to the first would be to indent more. John Smith the Gamer (talk) 21:52, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Unless you sign your name in the middle of your comment and again at the end, I didn't insert it into the "middle" of your comment. Perhaps PBS can take a look at it. DOCUMENT★ERROR 21:54, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Edited for clarity. The copied text now has a yellow background and the inserted text is in a collapse box. -- PBS (talk) 02:35, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose for now, I don't see how this situation can work in the current situation. Personally I need to work trough the diffs to see what Legacypac is supposed to have done wrong. I do not think that it is right to put a sanction on an editor's record without there being evidence to support it. How would it work in the ISIL editing environment if two present editors can't communicate? GregKaye 21:55, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
• Comment I don't know if an interaction ban would be beneficial or not, but I do not think this would stop there from being another ANI revolving around Talk:Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant as I feel that there has been a loss of good faith. I'd rather not see just an interaction ban (or lack thereof), rather I'd prefer to see an attempt to find the cause(s) of the problem and solve it, with or without interaction bans. John Smith the Gamer (talk) 22:16, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

I agree with you but, just to clarify, however, I do not edit in that or any ISIL-related topic, nor have I for at least a few months as a personal choice (not as a result of a topic ban as I have a flawless disciplinary record unlike two other editors in this ANI). DOCUMENT★ERROR 22:21, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

I shall also clarify, then. I did not mean to imply that any particularly user may be to blame, including yourself and Legacypac. The perceived loss of good faith causes a loss of good faith, which needs to be addressed especially in light of an active moratorium on Requested Moves expiring on 7 January. I assume the "other two users" refers to Gregkaye and Legacypac? John Smith the Gamer (talk) 22:47, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Understood. As to your second question I was avoiding outing anyone, but I do need to apologize as I thought Gregkaye had received a block from Callanecc the other day (User_talk:GregKaye/Archive_3#Blocked_for_violating_interaction_ban) but it appears his block log is clear, so that must have been a misread by me. DOCUMENT★ERROR 00:20, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

• This is "WP:BULLDOZERING" all over again. RGloucester — ☎ 23:26, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Gaming ANI / Counter-Proposal

Background: Legacypac, in his most recent ANI against me, lists 21 diffs without explanation, giving each a broad header like "canvassing" etc. I didn't go through these one by one due to sheer volume; NinjaRobotPirate did and said "they didn't seem that bad to me" (above). I did check a few out though. This diff he describes as "canvassing" is a move discussion about an article on a town in Serbia [88] - the active thread is here - I was participating in as the article's main author is on my watch list as I've recently pre-nom'ed them for Admin). Many diffs similarly appear to simply be random points from my edit history he's pulled out to "plump up" the ANI, presumably to make it look as salacious as possible through sheer volume of "paper." This appears to be a rather blatant case of WP:GAMING. I further note that my supposed status as an "Iranian" "anti-American" [sic], which is one of LP's charges against me in this thread, is not an issue ANI exists to address.

Counter-Proposal: As a counter-proposal to the IBAN, I suggest Legacypac receive a topic ban on ANI reports about me. As I've mentioned elsewhere, this is the latest in a string of ANIs he's hit me with [among countless other editors who have crossed him], all of which have been dismissed and I would welcome the respite from having to devote my time to these. (I believe Supreme Deliciousness, Signedzzz and GB fan have commented in previous ANIs and may be able to add perspective.) I would not object to such a topic ban allowing him to file "proxy" ANIs against me via a second autoconfirmed editor (even just one level of vetting will, I think, trim these to a more manageable level). DOCUMENT★ERROR 22:11, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

User:DocumentError You are not owning up to any of your behaviours in this. Even the reverence you gave to cyber-terrorism above was linked to an apparently gainfully delivered AN/I case by Legacypac. The people you have summoned are Supreme Deliciousness (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Signedzzz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) GB fan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) GregKaye 23:46, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Greg - I need to again ask you to group your comments together (ideally using a single indent below the main topic proposal) instead of splashing them all over the page out of date order and pushing them above those of editors who have previously weighed-in. I appreciate you feel a sense of urgency in what you have to say and are frustrated at my lack of reply, but the reason I'm not responding is because this shotgun syntax is extremely difficult for me to follow. This thread shouldn't look like a Jackson Pollock painting. Please just take a minute to follow the sequence. DOCUMENT★ERROR 00:07, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

User:DocumentError It would be helpful if you gave straightforward responses to questions and statements at relevant points in the text. Pings help. GregKaye 05:21, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm trying to avoid getting too involved in this. I dutifully read through the linked diffs, saw they weren't egregious, and said so. I'm not too sure what I can contribute beyond that. Maybe a bit of advice? Stop accusing each other of wrong-doing and go back to ignoring each other. If you're both incapable of that, then agree to a voluntary interaction ban. This endless bickering will not end well. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 23:02, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

• I think Legacypac should be banned from Wikipedia. Very disruptive editor that forces his pov into articles without consensus.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:59, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

I think that both editors at this point should be given a 48 hour - one week ban to think about things. I have seen DocumentError make valued contributions when I have seen them and know that Legacypac has made strong contribution to ISIL. They both have broken guidelines. An IBAN will achieve nothing as far as real change is concerned. Both have got to see that rules need to be followed. DocumentError has broken numerous guidelines as especially noted on his/her deleted content from talk page. Legacypac, from edits that I saw, was acting with an occasionally exhibited abrasive side that s/he would be advised, I think, to curb. I would like to see DocumentError respond to the issues that I have raised above and for Legacypac to justify his/her statement "DocumentErrors edits from a clear pro-Iran, anti-American POV" GregKaye 23:17, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

I do not think that the bans need necessarily be in proportion as, by referencing DocumentError's talk page, I think that here is the greater wrong. However, I also think that there are valid issues raised that Legacypac too would do well to think through and, arguably, some time out may help. GregKaye 23:33, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

[Comment out of chronological sequence]

• I reject the claim that DocumentError is "Stalking and Canvassing" me. Having a quick glance over this, it is clear that this is a complex issue with a long history. As I do not have the time to fully consider the points here, I will not be able to contribute fully. However, I have to say that it is not for Legacypac to determine whether I am being stalked or canvassed.

Regarding Documenterrors comment on my talk page, I need to say the following to put my concluding sentence in context. The last few days have been the most difficult for me. I have literally had a miserable week (maybe more) at Wikipedia. As a new editor who's account is 30 days old, I have had to face 4 accusations of sock puppetry and 1 of being a duck. These accusations I feel are linked to my unwelcome work on the ISIL page. Add to this, the constant undermining which, I felt I was being subjected to on that page, I was seriously considering quitting Wikipedia. The great relief I felt on seeing Documenterrors heading above his comment ("have faith", he said) on my talk page, provided some calm to my state of mind which I felt I was loosing at the point. It was a relief to know I was not the only one to think the atmosphere there was poisonous as per my definition on the reply to his message. At a point where I was loosing faith, the comment by Documenterror was a very generous act. It is for this reason that I do ask the other editors to give due consideration for this one kind act.

Correction added after: Even though Decumenterror did not canvass in my case, Legacypac can raise his concern if canvassing is taking place. I withdraw my assertion above that it is not for him to determine if I am being canvassed.

03:07, 7 January 2015 Mbcap (talk) 03:36, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, and it's always my pleasure to try and assist new editors. DOCUMENT★ERROR 03:55, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Just by chance, I remember Documenterror defending me a while back when I was a new editor getting accused of sockpuppetry. I was waiting to see if Legacypac would answer Documenterror's reasonable question about his accusations that started this thread; no surprise, he still refuses. Here is Legacypac's latest report against me, from a couple of days ago: notice how, when I am forced to respond to his false accusations, he immediately shifts the goalposts ("missed a word"), refuses to explain anything, and finally claims that "Everything else is explained above", and accuses me of "harrassment". So, no surprise. zzz (talk) 04:21, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

• Mbcap FYI the association between you as a sockpuppet account that appeared on my page here has been linked by NeilN with an "IP who's been harassing Bish"/ Bishonen here. I don't know why you associate the sockpuppet activity to your work at Talk:ISIL and not to your contributions to Talk:Israel that you recently asked me to join.

Without prior contact, DocumentError arrived at your page to say, "From one "cyber-terrorist" [sic] to another, until you've been denounced as "anti-American," you've only just sampled the ISIL topics. I self-extricated from the ISIL mess as a result of the poisonous atmosphere. Good luck."

No mentioned of accusation has here been made to current editors as being cyber-terrorists. Legacypac had said "don't disparage the efforts of the many editors who have struggled to write a high profile article while cyber-terrorists come to wikipedia to push a POV." with reference being made to a Pakistani IP. GregKaye 04:56, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Gregkaye I consider it linked to the ISIL page because 2 of the 3 accusers who gave examples with their accusation, it was regarding an edit or discussion on the ISIL page. Eeven though I had decided to limit my input here, I am compelled to respond at great expense to myself to what I think is a concerted effort to pick on an editor as part of a bigger issue of controlling the ISIL page. I feel this way because of Gregkayes post above mine and Legacypacs post about commenting on said editor, that he is anti-american/pro-iranian. These strong statement will be explained later in my post.

Firstly, I will continue to defend DocumentError's contact with me. I believe that when you are able to do an act of kindness, it becomes your moral obligation to do so. I believe therefore, that not only was it appropriate for him to contact me but that it was necessary. I feel we need to do more for new editors to encourage them to stay and not to scare them off. Moving on, I can not judge Documenterro's intentions but the nature of his response suggested he was providing his support to a new user who he felt was given a hard time. This behaviour of aiding new editors seems to be a running theme as reflected via the comment by the other new editors expression of support.

Also I think I know why DocumentError said from one cyber-terrorist to another. It has been suggested that there are a lot of POV pushers around the ISIL related pages and a lot of effort has been taken to block "cyber terrorists". I am not sure if it was implied that the above 2 are mutually inclusive but that is the impression I got. I do not think someone should be labelled a cyber-terrorist with such great ease. That is a serious accusation to make and one I feel is on par with accusing someone of rape or child sexual molestation. The word is all together loaded and should not be used against a fellow banned editor unless someone is judged by a court of law to be guilty of cyber-terrorism and that information is fed back to Wikipedia. I think at Wikipedia we are here for one purpose only and that is to compile the sum of human knowledge and not to decide over the internet whether someone is a cyber terrorist or not. I too found this comment offensive and I also felt it was aimed at me.

I am surprised to see Legacypac comment on his allegation of said editor as anti-american or pro-iranian. I think that it is time for me to call a spade, a spade. I feel that, with all honesty legacypac is guilty of the same thing he accuses Documenterror of, because I think that his work on the ISIL page is barn door pro-american. I think his attempts to stop anyone with an opposing opinion to his, from contacting me demonstrates this case even further and illustrates his attempts to censor information. To declare such heavy statements (which are my opinion btw), I must give my reasoning for feeling this way. I hope I do not get banned for this post or get in trouble as I am doing this in good faith and with a view to improving the encyclopaedia. The ISIL article's lead constitutes what I feel to be propaganda. The content of the lead is very good. However it's arrangement and the narrative that it conveys, seem to reflect heavily and is in line with America's narrative of the issue. I will further explain:

• The US's insistence on not using their name (I mean Islamic State/IS), the media's insistence on not using the name, the arab nations insistence on not using the name, the Muslim scholars insistence of not using the name, has resulted in a total misunderstanding and misapplication, of due and undue weight and NPOV policy playing a role in how prominently the name should appear in the lead. The correct way to apply this policy in my view here is, to decide how prominently the criticism of the name feature in the article and in the lead. The difference between the two interpretation is important and because it has been mixed together so badly, it has taken me a good deal of time to distinguish them.

• The narritive in the lead without question is pro-american. The official name is mentioned in the 4th line. Compare this to the use of the word Da'ish (Daesh) which is mentioned immediately after the first sentence. This name America is trying to incorporate in their narrative in tackling this conflict and they wish it to be the new name/standard term for the group as part of their multi-pronged approach to the conflict. They use the name as it is a considered a pejorative. This is alluded to partly by John Kerry at the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, a transcript of which you may read here [[89]]. I know this is PO but the use of the name is better described in secondary sources anyway

Since this is an encyclopaedia, information should be compiled in line with wiki policy and not to help any particular nation or group of nations agenda. My attempts to address this narrative was met with resistance, one that was most severe. My impression was that it was seen as more important not to give any legitimacy to ISIL than to follow wiki policy on neutrality. The state of affairs with that page makes me very sad and my attempts to tackle the issue, were met with what I think are allegations such as "I think you may be here to defend ISIL".

Whilst I think the involved editors both past and present have acted in good faith, I think they have got carried away with their attempts to combine wiki policy and guidelines with an attempt to de-legitimize ISIL which is not the purpose of an encyclopaedia. It is for the reasons I have highlighted, that I feel Legacypac edits from a pro-american standpoint which when met with concerns, even if discussed at length on the discussion page, is met with stiff and perpetual resistance. In this effort of his, I feel that he is aided by Gregkaye; both of whome I feel form a duopoly that exert undeserved pseudo-control over the page. I would compare the relationship to the multiple-editor ownership described in WP:own, where Legacypac in my view is the dominant editor who is then consistently defended and supported by Gregkeye. For example my attempt to undo his pov lead-tag removal (which was not allowed to be removed as per pov-lead policy) on the ISIL article was, immediatley answered by a reaction which I felt was the start of an edit war. As expected Gregkaye, in my opinion was there to provide and bolster legacypac's position as the dominant controller of the page. Seeing the situation had turned "poisonous", I then started contemplating on whether I should quite Wikipedia all together.

All that I have stated here is my opinion but I believe it is an opinion that is based on reflection of policy which I have spent about 40 to 50 hours studying this week. I have also reflected at length on my concerns about the ISIL page to see if they are merited when looking at policy. I would like to state to the other editors that this post in not a reactionary one. From the moment I started writing it to the moment I have reached here, it has took me a total of 5 hours to state my concerns in a way that I felt was appropriate and proportionate. No single event that took place was in itself something that made me think something sinister was going on. However when combining all the various things that have happened together, the picture that was painted was a troubling one.

I do think though that his intentions have been good. The work he has put into that page deserve credit and he has done it with good faith. But with all the stuff in the news and the atrocities etc, it can be easy to let a particular narrative slip in (whether consciously or subconsciously), as it may look to be of benefit and worth. However the goals of the encyclopaedia can only be met by following policy and giving every editor an equal say in a conversation. As a new editor, I feel I have jumped at the deepest end of the pool. I ask all other editors here to give consideration to my points. I will off course respect any decisions in terms of penalty to myself as a result of this comment here. Mbcap (talk) 10:54, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

zzz, in the ANI you linked, Legacypac alleged you were illiterate in the English language ("this editor can't read english" [sic]) Here. Having observed some of your great copyediting work on the Magdalene asylum and Boko Haram articles I just wanted to say I think your English is excellent and flawless in case you felt at all deterred by that comment. Keep up the great copyediting work. DOCUMENT★ERROR 11:02, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

can't read English is not a reference to inability in the language but to inability or refusal to understand. Legacypac (talk) 16:27, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, DOCUMENT★ERROR. In the same thread, Legacypac claims I have been "pushing" a "similar point" in the article, but he point-blank refuses to give any further clues. I wonder what POV I am being accused of. zzz (talk) 18:30, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

I am extremely sorry about what I have written about you both. You have both taught me a lot about wikipedia in such a short time and I am grateful. However I found that it was incredibly difficult, no actually it was impossible to contribute on that page even with discussion. As I mentioned to you both on the ISIL talk page, nearer the end of my conversation there, I dreaded to even think about editing the article. I do not think I should be made to feel that way by anyone, ever. Contrast this to the Israel page which is under active arbitration remedies, where I found editors were a lot more considerate to other editors opinions even in the midst of a difficult conversation about inserting into the lead that israel is the longest military occupier in modern history. I have been in at least 2 other disputes in addition to this which have resolved amicably with me and the other editors working the situation out amongst ourselves. So it was a surprise to find that it was impossible to do anything on the ISIL page. 11:12, 7 January 2015 (UTC) Mbcap (talk) 11:18, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

This is not a content dispute, this is a discussion of DocumentError's conduct. The issues Mbcap brings up have been addressed elsewhere. Legacypac (talk) 16:27, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

More Questions

Question 3 can DocumentError explain how summoning editors that have crossed with me to this ANI is not a breach of Canvessing?
Question 4: this ANi deals with false disruptive allegations. Instead of substantiating the allegations, DocumentError has made more allegations and sought sanctions against me. Will he substantiate his allegations or not? If no one cares if he says inappropriate crap I'll drop the ANi and walk away. I'll just use the RPA tag instead and/or ignore him again. Easy. Not worth my time or effort to deal with a person so full of drama and error. Legacypac (talk) 23:27, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Great - thank you! I'm pinging Bishonen, because it appears she was online recently, to ask her to review this thread with the suggestion it be closed/archived since we've both indicated we'll go back to ignoring each other. DOCUMENT★ERROR 23:45, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I was indeed recently online, but I haven't followed this, and I don't have time to deal with it now. Even just reading the thread and all the diffs in it would take longer than I can spare; I'm about to go to bed. You suggest it's easy to close and archive it because you both agree to ignore each other, but it doesn't look quite that simple to me, so I'm not willing to close without having a proper read first. Legacypak's last comment can be taken in a different way (as simply indicating that he's very frustrated). Bishonen | talk 00:00, 7 January 2015 (UTC).

No problem! DOCUMENT★ERROR 00:11, 7 January 2015 (UlTC)

LP, you said I didn't "substantiate" the "false allegations" I made. The majority of your diffs are just random caps from my edit history you've dropped in here to plump-up your ANI, which is why I've characterized this as a blatant case of WP:GAMING. But there are 2 or 3 cases of actual accusations I've made. Your first diff, for instance, [90]. In it I said you had told another editor Update_stormtrooper"Are you a child? your writing contains child like mistakes and your maturity level seems childlike." Here is the "substantiation" that you said "Are you a child? your writing contains child like mistakes and your maturity level seems childlike." [91] Now it's my turn to question: were you really not aware you said that? Or was the point of this ANI just to throw some stuff against the wall to see if you could get it to stick? DOCUMENT★ERROR 01:03, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

@Gregkeye - my comment that he edits from a pro-Iran anti-American POV was made several months back and justified by the various actions he was taking at the time to push Iran into articles about the America-led group actions against ISIL. (later insert for clarity-see the rest of that post where I clearly said why). This is not something I am bringing here, he is entitled to hold whatever views he wants. I only brought it up to show how he was misquoting me right here. He self identifies as being from Iran on his talk page and I don't view Iranians or Americans or any other nationality badly. I live in the most multicultural part of Canada where I have a United Nations of friends. My own home is cross cultural, multi and mixed ethnicity and multi-citizenship. There are many Muslims and Christians in my extended family. Hence I take GREAT exception to anyone throwing around allegations that suggest I have acted in a racist manner because that is completely outside my personal belief system. Per my Question above I would like to see diffs for where anyone called him the nasty names he claims Wikipedians (evidently me) are using about him so we can run such nasty people off the site. Beyond that, I am going back to ignoring him. Legacypac (talk) 00:41, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

The only thing I've ever claimed you said is that you've called me, on multiple occasions, an "Iranian" "Anti-American." [92] (including as recently as today - your 19:53 post in this very ANI) LP - TTBOMK people of Iranian ancestry are allowed on WP and one's ethnicity doesn't make one "anti-American" (nor is being "pro-America" a prereq for contributing to WP). (And, for anyone who is still reading this, here is where I successfully spun my diabolical anti-American conspiracy.) Now, to your other question, yes there are IP editors in the past who have called me things like "a shithole" that should be "nuked" [93] but I haven't brought that up in this ANI - because this is your ANI against me. You brought that up here. Why? If you really want to help, what would be most helpful is if you just stopped calling me names, if you stopped calling other editors names, [94] and if you stopped calling other editors "terrorists." [95] DOCUMENT★ERROR 01:08, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Question: Near the bottom of this page you said today in response to User:PBS saying you were hounding "I can also see that LP has filed an astonishing two dozen ANIs in the last 8 months since his topic ban was lifted (100% regarding content disputes on ISIL topics), the overwhelming majority of which have resulted in no action, on top of numerous, frivolous SPI actions and direct threats of ANIs against (usually new) editors. I can see a pattern of intense intimidation being applied against new editors and a long history of tendentious edits when all else fails, including unilateral page moves and editing against RfC...." Can you provide links to the very specific number of 2 dozen ANis so that we can evaluate your statements about the number and result of such ANi's? Secondly, can you provide links to the numerous SPI actions so we can evaluate the frivolousness of those actions and results? The last SPI I filed resulted in several new socks of globally banned User:Operahome being banned. I don't remember what happened on the previous one. Legacypac (talk) 01:42, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Answer: You asked "can you provide links to the numerous SPI actions so we can evaluate the frivolousness of those actions and results." I don't understand - are you asking me to file an ANI against you? The topic of this sub-thread is Gaming ANI / Counter-Proposal. You came in here with a specific complaint demanding diffs. I provided them. [96] You went silent and moved onto something else not contained in your original ANI and demanded diffs. You got 'em.[97] You then went silent on that and have moved onto this latest demand for diffs on still an entirely different topic. This has, as per MO, gone from an ANI into a madcap fishing expedition. Are you going to offer an explanation regarding the misinformation in the original formatting of your ANI? Third request. DOCUMENT★ERROR 02:17, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

The diffs provided are examples, as you throw out more accusations I'm requesting you substantiate them. I've added a new heading to clarify where the next questions start. Please answer the question with diffs. Legacypac (talk) 03:00, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Legacypac, this is an ANI about me. And I've asked you to substantiate the accusations you made about me vis a vis the misinformation in the original formatting of your ANI (namely that I'm "stalking" editors with whom you interact). Are you going to do that or not? DOCUMENT★ERROR 03:09, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

I hope I now understand what you keep asking. "Stalking and Canvassing editors I'm currently interacting with" means a) Stalking me AND b) Canvassing other editors. I did not suggest you are stalking other editors. Sorry if that was unclear. Now answer the questions. Legacypac (talk) 04:44, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Comment User:DocumentError I got in contact with you here in context that you had made comment with wording "poisonous" and "toxic" with the thinking that, if you were able to edit with a more positive approach, your contributions might have a genuinely beneficial effect. I also wanted to broach things to try to understand your perspectives re the criticisms mentioned. There has been a notable amount of argumentatively presented content at talk:ISIL IMO which, if anything, needs to be discouraged and defused. I view your approaches here as incitement of a type that will encourage or otherwise justify a continuation or even an escalation of an argumentative approach. PLEASE consider this. PLEASE can all editors drop approaches that may be taken as incitement. Some of us want to get on with editing and will welcome inputs from non argumentative editors who come for genuine debate. GregKaye 05:56, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

• PROPOSAL: When AN/I is too long, people get tired of both. DOCUMENT★ERROR stated that he no longer edits the article, so impose a topic ban on him alone so the arguments can stop. Also impose a CBAN on both so they no longer interact. 23.27.252.213 (talk) 12:37, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

What article? While I appreciate 23.27.252.213 materializing to call for my head and Greg making this ANI one of his first major contributions after his return from his latest block, as I've noted repeatedly, I haven't edited any ISIL-related article for more than 3 months (due to total lack of interest and because I've been busy improving Delta Upsilon for a GA nom). That said, I concede it would definitely be ... interesting ... to impose a topic ban on someone who isn't involved in a topic. DOCUMENT★ERROR 13:39, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

"Now answer the questions."??? LP, this isn't HUAC. As many other editors have observed in this thread, you'll find people tend not to respond favorably to these types of barked interrogatories. With all due respect, this may be the genesis of these dramatic entanglements in which you frequently seem to find yourself. [98] Anyway, this is an ANI about me. And I've asked you to substantiate the accusations you made about me vis a vis the misinformation in the original formatting of your ANI. Were you trying to WP:GAME the ANI by "plumping" your list of diffs as observed here? What are your thoughts about Ninjarobotpirate's determination that he saw "nothing egregious" in any of the diffs you provided? Is being "Iranian" or an "Anti-American" [sic], as you've repeatedly denounced me for being [99], a violation of our guidelines? Thanks. DOCUMENT★ERROR 13:11, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Wrap-up

I came to ANi in accordance with the guidance at WP:CONDUCT to discuss:

1. Wild unsubstantiated accusations - often edited and reedited over each other
2. Stalking of me
3. Canvassing of other editors
4. Messing with my comments

In the course of this ANi I've provided diffs to support my complaints and asked specific Questions. In response DocumentError has:
a) made additional unsubstantiated accusations.
b) Canvassed right here by pinging editors from a list he appears to keep of editors that may not like something I've done
c) Messed with my comments right in this thread which User:PBS fixed.
d) failed to actually answer most of my Questions about things he has said or done.
e) failed to provide diffs that actually support his wild accusations.
f) failed to answer reasonable questions posed by other editors to him.

DocumentError can't answer the Questions because he can't provide evidence that does not exist. He's had a fair chance, his accusations have been heard by the Wikiworld, and he has made plenty of other responses. Time to cut off debate. I'd rather not see this circus go on for days. I want to be left in peace.

This is a user conduct issue, not a content dispute. Topic bans are not a relevant remedy. Yes, I can be abrasive. No I don't tolerate game playing and refusal to follow policy. Yes I've taken people to ANi, 3RR etc, but I don't think I abuse those processes. Yup I recently got a SPA IP from Pakistan banned for what I later called cyber-terrorism (editing in a way that was exclusively promoting the biggest baddest terrorist group in the world right now). If someone wants to call for sanctions against me they will need much better evidence then DocumentError has provided.

Proposed Resolution: For making unsubstantiated personal attacks, DocumentError be prohibited from posting any comment about Legacypac anywhere on Wikipedia indefinitely

If that happens, I'll very happily go back to ignoring his existence. Thank-you for reading and Happy New Year. Legacypac (talk) 17:30, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

• SUPPORT - First, that's not asking for too much and shouldn't need an ANI. Second, Legacypac presented a good case. 194.169.217.208 (talk) 17:44, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose any proposal by parties, drama makers, or the like Just close this darn thing, no action taken. Too long, too convoluted, too much 'he said she said' and frankly, too much drama. If there's some unambiguous proof that someone needs to be sanctioned, then that should be stated but otherwise, close this darn thing. Tutelary (talk) 20:23, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose I've shifted through the 18 "Wild unsubstantiated accusations" and whilst I think DocumentError should have used strike-through for some of those diffs, there are few accusations, none of which I would characterise as "wild". The most serious one for which he doesn't provide evidence for is "Yours is (as usual) simply alerting us to the latest personal wrong you believe you have suffered." which I do not believe to be anywhere near deserving a IBAN. His accusation of you not being civil is supported by the tone of your accusation of someone being a child. I therefore believe he did not make unsubstantiated personal attacks.John Smith the Gamer (talk) 01:08, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

(previously put in wrong section due to edit conflict)

• Oppose proposed resolution, DocumentError should have the right to comment but in a civil way with comments being substantiated. S'he should certainly not be allowed to go to multiple forums with allusions of wrong doing and general claim of poisonous toxicity at a talk page. If anything the problem has been that DocumentError was not specific enough. Talk:ISIL has had 434 distinct editors and specification has still not been certified as to the direction that all comments were targeted. Wikipedia should not be an place where a blunderbuss approach to targeting should be used. I do not necessarily support a specific topic. In my work in places like WP:RM I seem to recollect DocumentError giving helpful and insightful comment on various issues and, while I have not seen this at talk:ISIL, I have no doubt that this may have the potential to also happen here. No form of positive or negative prejudice should be tolerated and if DE has a tendency or anti-Americanism then, if this is not too well hidden, then such issues should be addressed specifically through administration. GregKaye 07:49, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

• Comment on ISIL, From my perspective I am tired of behaviour that I believe can be widely seen by viewing the ISIL and related talk pages. This is in terms of CIVIL, PA, stating opinion as fact, INDCRIT and attacking the person and not the argument. I would very much appreciate any intervention for such activity to stop. In a topic like ISIL I also think that it is reasonable to suspect the possibility of insurgent or Islamist terrorist sympathetic inputs and, for me, this has been confirmed or at least paralleled in a great number of against consensus edits on a range of topics. The ISIL conflict has been largely a Sunni-Shia / ISIL - Sunni/non-ISIL Sunni conflict. For instance, 'SIL's priority is to first tackle/defeat the Sunni Hamas organisation even before tackling Israel. Despite this there has been a concerted effort amongst some editors to highlight Israel's involvement. I think that US involvement (without reference to coalition) has also been inappropriately highlighted at times and I think that, for whatever motive and whether consciously or not, editors have been happy to editorially widen the conflict beyond actual realities.

Editorial canvassing has also been practised between editors to a substantial degree and, as in cases such as is being currently discussed, by an editor that I have seen make good contribution, this at least borders on incitement. I really believe that such inputs need to be dealt with in whatever way practicable for the sake of preserving the cordiality of discussion on a hotbed topic. I agree with Tutelary that there is too much drama but argue that, for this very reason, issues must be dealt with. If the drama is not sorted out here it will just continue elsewhere and AN/I will have failed. Admin cannot close this, for instance, with bland comment but issues must be addressed. GregKaye 07:49, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

• Comment on Legacypac, Legacypac has as far as I have seen widely steered clear of the issues stated above. S/he has also taken great responsibility in chasing down issues of user misconduct on the relevant pages with, as far as I have seen and IMO, largely extremely good effect. In general I also believe that Legacypac's comments have been amongst the more civil of those on Wikipedia. However, within an environment of a High level of confrontation, I have also seen some of your approaches at times to be unnecessarily confrontational. I have also frequently seen Legacypac address issues with a high level of civility which I believe is exemplified here and which I believe is also indicated in a view of general discussion. Please be aware of occasional breaches and I would ask you to review critical comments made. I appreciate, for instance, that the "are you a child" comment came in a context or a perceived context but, none-the-less, I think that you should consider the appropriateness of such comments as relatively rare as they may be. GregKaye 07:49, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Block

OK, now I've reviewed this thread, as requested by DocumentError. Something that stands out here (and also in posts made on other pages during this, timewise, quite brief ANI) is DocumentError's persistent and quite specific accusations against Legacypac and dancing around repeated requests to substantiate them. They either ignore requests for diffs or specifics or bat them away with rebuffs such as "I don't understand - are you asking me to file an ANI against you?… this is an ANI about me", or "This isn't HUAC" (yes, really, that was one). Or complaints about the way a question was formatted, in lieu of answering it. Also, it seems no amount of pleading will persuade DE to provide diffs, or reasonable-sized section links, instead of links to huge ANI threads. I will not spend the best years of my life reading those, but I used the "search" function, and often the claimed insult simply wasn't there. Such evasiveness is very disruptive. I have blocked DocumentError for 36 hours. DocumentError, I hope such uncollaborative mannerisms aren't typical of you in talkpage exchange, because they can wear out people. In case they are typical, please consider changing your ways when you return from the block. Bishonen | talk 01:00, 8 January 2015 (UTC).

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Question about practices

Apologizing in advance for not being overly familiar (or decent at all) with a lot of these practices. Made an edit on the gender section which was changed, in error in my opinion. I've gone to the Teahouse to ask about it, and asked for another philosopher from the Philosophy section (I'm a member) to take a look at the section's entry because I feel there are some problems. The editor who changed my edit seems to be following to these places and telling people I'm being misleading. I'm just asking if someone could take a look at some inconsistencies in an entry and straighten them out, and to be honest I'm feeling harassed by this behavior. Any help would be appreciated.Maxxx12345 (talk) 07:20, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

See here; I have nothing more to state to Maxxx12345. Yes, when an editor goes to a WikiProject accusing me of WP:Advocacy and then goes to Wikipedia:Teahouse/Questions stating I am ignoring him or her on the talk page, when I am not, then, yes, I am going to comment on those matters. Flyer22 (talk) 10:26, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Offensive unblock request by User:Phillip J Henderson

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I was patrolling recent changes and came across this offensive unblock request, which I have reverted: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Phillip_J_Henderson&diff=prev&oldid=641568858

Should we remove his talk page privleges? pcfan500 (talk) 12:33, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Don't do that. There's no need to revert something someone says on their own talk page just because it contains the word "fuck". Let an admin decline the request. --Closedmouth (talk) 12:47, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

It's a silly unblock request from a person that is simply here to waste time. I revoked the talk page access before he reverted the unblock request. WP:DENY and move on. Kuru (talk) 12:50, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Spurious claim from Urban Dictionary makes its through Wikipedia into The Guardian

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I am not sure where to put this, but I thought some here might find it interesting. A definition for London School of Economics on the Urban Dictionary website claims that LSE has 'produced a quarter of all nobel prize winners in Economics' [100]. Whilst a significant number of such winners have been associated with LSE, far fewer have been produced by LSE: from [101], I can count no more than five out of seventy-five. Nonetheless, this claim was forced into the lead of the article by single-purpose accounts [102], [103], [104], where it has stayed for around six months. Amazingly, The Guardian fell for this and repeated the claim on its website [105]. I am not sure who should feel most embarrassed: Wikipedia or The Guardian! 86.170.130.156 (talk) 13:50, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

So your quarrel isn't with the numbers (16 out of 45), it's with the description (produced vs. associated with), right? --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 13:58, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

There is not really a quarrel as such: it is just a typical bit of school/college/university vandalism that this time went undetected and was picked up by others. Would you mind closing this here, sorry? I was not sure where to let people know so posted here, but I remembered WP:RSN afterwards.86.170.130.156 (talk) 14:07, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

I have managed it myself. :) 86.170.130.156 (talk) 14:09, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

IP Editor evading ban

User: 46.208.228.150 has been blocked for 72 hrs for vandalism at the article Stop the Bus (see [106]). This person is a single purpose editor, and only seems to edit the above mentioned article ([107]) and the article Creature of Havoc ([[108]]). Further to this, the editor has a habit of automatically reverting edits by other users and is bltatantly rude about any perceived interference ([109]].

These blind reversions without discussion resulted in the block, however a simple check of the WHOIS feature reveals that the editor has simply resumed editing Creature of Havoc with another IP from the same address. The point of origin for User 46.208.228.150:[[110]] is exactly the same as it is for this user's new alias: User 83.216.142.251 - ([111]). The language is also a dead giveaway as this person is simply not interested in entertaining other contributions (the case at both articles). Given this blatent disregard for the block - which was minimal - I would respectfully request that the IP source be totally blocked. Otherwise, this behaviour will continue. Regards Asgardian (talk) 11:05, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

83.216.142.251 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) just removed this section, I've re-added it. — Strongjam (talk) 14:18, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Personal Attacks on IP

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Baseball_  Bugs (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log),

Baseball Bugs personally attacked me here [112] even after I asked him to be civil here [113]

I ask for a block or an official warning. 23.27.252.124 (talk) 15:34, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

You're an experienced user pretending to be a newbie. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:36, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

The fact that the IP editor knows to post the comment here currently suggests that BB is right. John Carter (talk) 15:42, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

The actual issue needs to be considered separately not speculating. 23.27.252.124 (talk) 15:46, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

The actual issue is that you're acting suspiciously. Straighten up and fly right, and you'll be more likely to be treated in kind. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:02, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

The actual issue here is that you personally attacked me. I prefer assumption of good faith not speculation.23.27.252.124 (talk) 16:05, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

I said you're not a newbie, which is obvious. That's not a personal attack. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:06, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

See the warning here: [114] Legacypac (talk) 16:09, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

What brought you here is this "You're being dishonest. Start being honest, and you'll get better treatment". This is a personal attack. Also, please be civil and stop speculation.23.27.252.124 (talk) 16:12, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

I see, we have 23.27.252.213 (talk · contribs) who is currently blocked until the 14th, and we have 23.27.252.124 (talk · contribs) who is obviously the same guy, evading his block. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:14, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Legacypac, what does that warning have to do with me? That was not me. Please would you stop the speculations? 23.27.252.124 (talk) 16:15, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

• No, I am not obviously the same guy. 23.27.252.124 (talk) 16:17, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
  • You talk the same way and you have the same complaints about the same user. Maybe a range block would be a good idea. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:18, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
    • Please stop the speculation and be civil. 23.27.252.124 (talk) 16:19, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Uncivil comments from the San Jose IP here [115] Legacypac (talk)

• • Oh fer crying out loud, this is ridiculous. I've blocked the range this roaming individual has been using via those particular two IPs, 23.27.252.0/23. They're static — fancy that — so I gave it a month. Feel free to close this thread. (I was going to say to remove it, but please don't just yet, as it throws some light on the thread above.) Bishonen | talk 16:28, 8 January 2015 (UTC).

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Harassment continues from Beyond My Ken

I have had a series of really bad interactions with the above named user, and was even banned for answering a question, from a 3rd user as he had claimed he request that I not post to his talk page, something I did not do, but he did not like my reply so he went running to a admin and had me blocked for 24 hours, and was told by 2 admins to leave me alone. So his reply was to review every file I have contributed, mostly in commons but many that are here, and he has renamed them and recat'ed then all on the basis that, as the user put it "we have a positive duty to rename files which are inaccurately named", it would appear that is his idea of a "Wide Birth" and he is clearly doing everything he can to annoy and antagonize me. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE place a LIFETIME INTERACTION BAN upon him as I want nothing to do with him, have tried in the past, he was told to leave me alone and he renames every file I have based upon this "we have a positive duty to rename files which are inaccurately named". Please get his to stop or I am done here. --talk→ WPPilot  13:17, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Do you have an example or two of a renamed file? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:21, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:Manhattan_Island_Ferry_Terminals_photo_D_Ramey_Logan.jpg&action=history https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?

--talk→ WPPilot  13:25, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

In the first link, I see that he pluralized the word "terminal". I don't understand what alteration the second link refers to. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:31, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

After being TOLD to just leave it alone by User:Bishonen (I don't see the convo in the archives but I have posted to her page a request as well) ‎he went about, modifying a whole series of my files changing names modifying cats and sent the last 2 days doing it to any file he could find, that I had contributed and is modifying them. My concern is the users willingness to create conflict, intentionally, in spite of being told not to, then adding to this buy editing my contributions, during the ban he obtained upon with is claim that I was not being nice in a reply to a third party. talk→ WPPilot  13:42, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Seems like a commons issue to me, based on the provided link. Hipocrite (talk) 13:47, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

The file rename is permitted by policy; see Commons:COM:RENAME point 5. The categorisation is likewise appropriate; Commons would be mostly useless if users couldn't add categories to others' uploads. Please note that we have no jurisdiction over Commons; complaints about Commons edits go to Commons:COM:AN/U, although your links here are nowhere near sufficient for any sanctions. Nyttend (talk) 14:10, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

• I've warned both editors on Commons, and I warned both here the other day. If this continues, I'm liable to block the person responsible on either or both wikis. Clearly they need to leave each other alone on both projects and find something else to do. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:31, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

• WPPilot, you won't see conversations on your page in any archives unless you archive the page yourself. (Frankly, leaving stuff on your page would be simpler; you're only creating difficulties for yourself by blanking everything.) But blanked posts can be found in the page history, which functions as a kind of archive. Here's the post from me that I think you meant; it was more about not posting on BMK's page, and about expressing my regret that you felt your uploaded aerial photos weren't appreciated; I'm sure they are, and I've seen BMK say so too. But the claim that you weren't being nice was true. I can't find where BMK edited anything of yours during your block, which would have been tactless; I think you may be mistaken about that. BMK's contributions list for the period is very long, though — he edits a lot — so it's possible I may have missed it. Please give diffs for the edits you complain of, or if you have trouble with diffs, at least give the time or the article or file name or something. (But see Simple diff and link guide.) He didn't edit anything you had started on Commons during those 24 hours, either. (Apart from the fact that you were never blocked on Commons.) In that instance, you complain of something that didn't happen.

I do understand that you're generally angry, and feel generally unappreciated, and then mistakes like that can happen. I hope you'll be able to realize that your contributions are valued, and will feel better about contributing to Wikipedia (and to Commons, which is a separate project). It often happens that users are initially uncomfortable with the very collaborative nature of Wikipedia, and protest about their edits and uploads being changed by others. It's human, and I actually don't think it helps to throw WP:OWN at them when they feel bad. But I hope you get used to it, WP. BMK is trying to improve matters in good faith. User:Beyond My Ken, I have no complaint of you, but please try to be as tactful as possible, as new users are sensitive. Bishonen | talk 15:47, 7 January 2015 (UTC).

Bishonen's comments are on the mark. They echo, in some measure, comments I have made elsewhere to WPP. WPP however has been an editor for 5 years, with more than 7,500 edits to his credit, and he has had a good deal of time to accommodate himself to the collaborative nature of the encyclopedia. Here's hoping that recent events, and Bishonen's comments, will help that process along. JohnInDC (talk) 16:16, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

WPPilot, I am concerned about your references. You quote a change in name within: Revision history of "File:Manhattan Island Ferry Terminals photo D Ramey Logan.jpg" in which Beyond My Ken made the not very significant title change from:

• File:Manhattan Island Ferry Terminal photo D Ramey Logan.jpg to
• File:Manhattan Island Ferry Terminals photo D Ramey Logan.jpg

Looking at the image in Google maps it seems that there are two terminals to me. I am wondering to what extent this may be an issue of WP:OWN.

On the face of it I have sympathy for the view that you quote Beyond My Ken as having: "we have a positive duty to rename files which are inaccurately named". Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia. You say: "Please get his to stop or I am done here". There is hopefully no reason for you to be done here. If Beyond My Ken inaccurately renames a file then you have the right to revert the renaming. Looking at your User page you seem to be a great asset to Wikipedia but, if another editor becomes involved to increase the encyclopaedic value of material, this is no reason to leave.

If Beyond My Ken has done genuine wrong then I would prefer block or ban on the belief that genuinely offending behaviours should be curbed rather than suppressed. GregKaye 16:46, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

@GregKaye: Yes, there are two terminals: the Staten Island Ferry terminal and the Governors Island terminal. Perhaps WPPilot thought it was one complex, South Ferry. Epicgenius (talk) 17:06, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

That is possible but take a look File:Manhattan Island Ferry Terminals photo D Ramey Logan.jpg. In a case like this civil communication might be encouraged rather than an IBAN imposed. With that information a title such as File:Staten Island and Governors Island ferry terminals, Manhatten photo, D Ramey Logan.jpg might even be used. GregKaye 17:12, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Sanction appeal

Per HJ Mitchell's statement here, I am officially appealing his sanction. The recent changes to WP:OUTING to include "any other accounts on any other web sites" have essentially codified a protection against harassment being coordinated or performed by Wikipedia editors on other websites, as I have been subject to by editors involved in the ongoing dispute at arbitration, which I've only discovered because I am participating on those other websites myself and their names keep coming up. This sanction effectively prevents me from reporting harassment when Occam's razor basically proves that User:John_Doe34 is the John_Doe34 actively calling me a "retard" on another website.

I've already forwarded such material to the arbitration committee when it was relevant to the case but both the evidence and workshop phases are closed so there's not much else thats going to come out of that, particularly when more attacks were made and my name is continually dragged through the mud because I dared to ask someone to correct a typo when the mere presence of my name in the page's editing history would start a new round of abuse.

In short, the change to WP:OUTING is BS and I shouldn't be sanctioned for trying to bring to light behavior that is obviously by other editors on other websites when it concerns their duplicity on Wikipedia.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:31, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

• Ryulong did not even wait 24 hours launching this appeal, and while the active Arbitration case is on-going. For a user admonished and threatened with sanction by ArbCom for off-wiki behavior, is Ryulong really saying that the change to WP:OUT is bullshit? ChrisGualtieri (talk) 21:59, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

  HJ Mitchell wrote "You may also appeal immediately to AN or ANI if you feel the sanction is unjust or unduly harsh, but please link to this comment", so I've done that. And I am under no restriction to do what I have done (particularly because you're linking to a workshop page entry and not the actual remedy which still lacks any actual "we will punish you if you do this" considering it's worded to only consider a particular editor). The point of the matter is that a recent addition to the wording of WP:OUTING effectively prevents anyone from raising any issue about easily identifiable behavior. It prevents us from going "I've discovered this user works for this company and has been heavily editing the article on that company and/or its competitors without a disclosed conflict of interest", "I've discovered this person has been involved in extreme harassment of this living person offsite and is actively participating in editing the article on that person", or in my case "This user has been harassing me off-site in regards to actions on Wikipedia". I had absolutely zero intention of discussing the behavior I had seen directed at me and I should not be prevented from bringing this behavior to the notice of the community at large should I come across it, nor should anyone else.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 22:05, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

  You should also link to when the rule was first changed as a result of a discussion on the functionaries mailing list before it was reverted for a time by an admin who disagreed with the rule change, you linked to when it was reinstated. Weedwacker (talk) 22:14, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

  Irrelevant because the talk page also happens to point out that the original editor was not on the functionaries list whatsoever.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 22:16, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

  That's true but the talk page discussion also shows the message did come from them. Weedwacker (talk) 23:20, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

• I disagree with the change to the outing policy as it creates this kind of absurd situation. Additionally, I would say that I do not believe this was outing even under the new policy as Logan admits to being the owner of an account under a similar name on Twitter and on Twitter he indicates he is the owner of a Reddit account under a similar name. There are many reasons for sanctioning Ryulong, but I don't think this is one of them, though the arbitration case is set to wrap up soon enough so we should await their decision. Depending on the outcome of the case, this matter can be revisited.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 23:25, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Logan also implicitly admits the reddit account to be his own in Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive858#Ryulong where he says "he looked up my twitter and reddit." (context: I was the one who found the reddit and twitter while casualy browsing gamergate sites, not Ryulong). Bosstopher (talk) 01:04, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

• "This sanction effectively prevents me from reporting harassment". No, this sanction prevents you from publicly reporting off-wiki activity regarding GG matters. You were directed that "should you feel the need, you may email the Arbitration Committee with any such comments. Should you feel compelled to make such comments on arbitration pages, you must obtain the prior permission of a clerk or arbitrator". In that case, I fail to see the problem. —Dark 23:34, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
• Per Dark, I fail to see what effect this would have. If there is a real offsite problem relating to GamerGate, email the arbitrators. If you really feel it needs to be aired, ask the arbs or the clerks when emailing them, but I can't see a situation where this would be the case. KonveyorBelt 00:47, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

  It's offwiki harassment directed at me performed by people who are also on Wikipedia with obviously similar usernames or admissions offsite. And I've reported what I did to the committee as part of evidence regarding several users but the attacks and negative behavior is unending. There are threads on Reddit as we speak now attacking me and other Wikipedia editors. Hell, there's at least two attacking Samwalton9 and there's a thread about this sanction and my appeal of this sanction.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 01:12, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

  And there are threads on Reddit as we speak now attacking me. Created by you. The sanction may have something to do with your persistent refusal to follow the very rules you demand others respect. Auerbachkeller (talk) 02:46, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

  Anything I may have posted there that you claim is an attack is not at all related to your behavior on Wikipedia as an editor which you barely qualify for as.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 02:59, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

  WP:NPA. Thank you for proving my point. Auerbachkeller (talk) 18:19, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

  All I've done is point out that you made one edit to any of our articles as every other edit you have made is to foment a dispute that did not exist until you arrived on Wikipedia. I am speaking of your actions here, which is not a violation of NPA. Maybe if you were being a more involved member of the actual aim of this project instead of focusing your time into trying to get me punished by any means possible I would think more highly of you here. But all that's been accomplished is furthering the divide despite attempts to extend an olive branch or at least call to the end of hostilities.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 20:16, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

  Saying that I "barely qualify for" being an editor on "the encyclopedia anyone can edit" sounds like a personal attack to me. What you think of me is irrelevant; the question is your conduct. Auerbachkeller (talk) 21:24, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

  I meant "as" instead of for and did not recognize this error until now. Considering you have one edit to the article space you barely qualify as an editor here.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 07:30, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

  That still reads as a personal attack as well. There was no need to say any such thing in the first place, bad grammar or no, and it continues the pattern of you responding to any criticism whatsoever by shooting the messenger. Consider that this very thread has turned into you arguing why I'm not qualified to criticize you. Auerbachkeller (talk) 16:06, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

  The fact here is that your contributions to the project are heavily based in responding to me and about me because you did not like how the sentence about you read that was edited and changed long after I had originally written it and you continue to foster this dispute with me and basically anyone that is not pro-Gamergate. This beef solely concerns our interactions which you instigated.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 22:41, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

  This account is false in many regards--not that I expect anyone to do anything about it. But I will note that this account is false, as usual, and end this thread here. Auerbachkeller (talk) 23:06, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

  You keep saying everything I've said regarding our interaction is a lie. You've only made one article edit and everything else regards Gamergate or me in regards to Gamergate. You have no intention of becoming a part of this project but want me gone because I happen to be singled out as the go to scapegoat for Gamergate and Wikipedia. All I did was originally write a section about someone's criticism of one of your articles and now you've been on my ass on this website for two months and whenever I call you out on this you say "I'm no longer participating in this discussion". It's bullshit.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 02:02, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Your definition of "attack" is pretty broad in my opinion, from what I can tell the thread you're referring to about admin SamWolton is just documenting that an account of the same name on reddit went on to an antiGamerGate subreddit and called people conspiracy theorists, which of course that subreddit celebrated. There's a thread on an account by you "attacking" (by your definition) journalist Milo Yinnopoulous calling him a "based liar", and that journalist Georgina of TechRaptor only writes articles for the money. If we're going to start documenting off-site behaviour you're not off grounds. Loganmac (talk) 05:50, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

I did not say she only writes articles for money. I said that TechRaptor is exclusively funded through Patreon and Gamergate advocates must obviously bankroll the website because they keep churning out pro-Gamergate pieces. And when someone calls me a "retard" that is definitely an attack.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 07:52, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

• I have no issue with the appeal or with its timing. Ryulong is quite within his rights to appeal if he thinks the sanction is unfair, and he did as I asked and linked to my notification so as far as I'm concerned, everything is above board and he's been perfectly fair to me. I will of course abide by whatever the community decides.

  From my perspective, this was not related to the recent change to WP:OUTING (of which I was vaguely aware, but have no strong feelings on). One of the (many, many) issues with editor conduct in this topic area has been accusations that editors have engaged in misconduct elsewhere on the Internet. While harassment etc is abhorrent, I can't see what good can come from alleging that somebody was rude to you on another website. I can see a benefit in noting, for example, off-wiki coordination of on-wiki disruption, but one can do that without alleging that the coordinator is a particular Wikipedia editor or vice versa. More to the point, Ryulong seems to have repeatedly brought up editors' activity elsewhere on the Internet where it has little or no relevance (in this case, one could argue that it was tangentially relevant, but it couldn't have affected the outcome of the enforcement request, so raising it was not helpful). Given that such allegations don't seem to serve any legitimate purpose for dispute resolution or improvement of the encyclopaedia, I felt that the restriction I crafted was reasonable in that it prevents discussions being derailed by allegations that are difficult to prove and almost certainly inactionable without being unduly punitive (bearing in mind that the wider issues of editor conduct in the topic area are currently being examined at arbitration, albeit at a pace that a giant slot would find sedate). Happy to answer any specific questions, but otherwise I feel it's best for the original admin to make their statement and then get out of the way. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 01:30, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

  I've seen more people trying to call me out for my comments elsewhere regarding the topic than I've done anything to say that any particular person has an account on another website and is using it to disrupt. And you've blocked me for this before. And when I asked (on IRC) how to notify anyone of misconduct privately I got chewed out by someone who said I'm toxic and need to be banned.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 01:34, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

  I blocked you for restoring unsupported allegation after I asked you not to, but I can see why you'd make the connection (I honestly didn't). It's not because I hate you (at least you're polite), but because I'm doing what I believe is best for the project. Anyway, the issue is the relevance of these allegations to Wikipedia. I can't go over to Reddit, Twitter, 8chan, etc, etc, and start blocking people for violating CIV or BLP or anything else. Nor could I get away with blocking people on Wikipedia because they were rude to you on another website (though as you've seen, I've taken an absolute zero-tolerance approach to dealing with harassment when it has come on to Wikipedia) so making the allegation on the wiki doesn't help anything. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 01:47, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

  But we should be able to say something like what happened with OverlordQ the other day.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 02:59, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

• There are a few aspects with the way in which this sanction was imposed which are not ideal. Firstly, the administrator who imposed this sanction (HJ Mitchell) has essentially asked the Committee to ban Ryulong from the project on the case workshop page. Secondly, this action was then logged at the proposed decision case page as "information" (but ultimately, by suggesting the committee take this into consideration, it is evidence being submitted at a time when evidence submissions were closed). Thirdly, the 'disruption' being prevented by this measure is unlikely to outweigh the discussion and drama that this appeal will generate as it can be seen as an attempt to pre-empt the decision he invites the Committee to come to (given that this was the natural consequence of taking this action just a few days before a proposed decision was to be posted and at a time when both evidence and workshop phases have formally closed). While it is commendable that HJ Mitchell has made a statement early on here and pledged to stay out of the way of whatever is decided here, I do think it would be more useful for the project if he takes the initiative to reduce the duration of the restriction until the committee's final decision is posted at the main case page (rather than force the committee to actively supersede the sanction in the circumstances I've just described). That is better than leaving it to us to amend or overturn the restriction, or to leave this added complication to the arbitration decision - either of which is unhelpful. Given the inherent difficulties with arbcom taking a quick and robust action in response to harassment (if it is occurring, or in terms of BOOMERANG if it is not), there is probably room for relaxing the restriction too. Finally, the assertion about Ryulong made by User:ChrisGualtieri is unhelpful in my opinion, as he (misleadingly) links to a proposal made in a workshop, and omits the fact that the actual case remedy revoked any "threat" of sanction. Ncmvocalist (talk) 10:48, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

@Ncmvocalist: - Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Ryulong#Ryulong_admonished is the right link. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:51, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

@ChrisGualtieri: Yes, not sure why you used the Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Ryulong/Workshop/ArbCom-PD#Ryulong_admonished link at the top of the discussion. Ncmvocalist (talk) 17:37, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

It was a simple mistake. I somehow got that from searching the ArbCom case and just didn't see it pulled from the workshop part. I didn't notice it until you pointed it out. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:39, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

• Yes, I contributed to the workshop page as an outside party and suggested such sanctions (against multiple parties on both sides) as I thought the evidence presented by others showed were merited. That doesn't make me a party to the dispute, which is itself rather ridiculous in my opinion. And the "in my opinion mild" comment was a simple factual statement—I felt that all my actions arising from WP:GS/GG/E yesterday (which I took after investigating a plea for more admins at AN) were mild because I deliberately looked at the narrow issue of the complaints and editors' conduct on that board rather than the wider issues with the topic area and took the mildest action I felt would address would address the immediate problem, precisely to avoid circumventing the arbitration case. But I see nothing improper in notifying ArbCom of (yes, mild) sanctions against parties in a case, especially since the sanctions may affect those parties' contributions to the case. The arbs can do as they please with the information; I'm sure even if they thought I was advocating for further action against any party (I wasn't, but for argument's sake...), they're intelligent enough to evaluate the situation for themselves and if they felt I'd acted improperly, I'm sure they wouldn't hesitate to make their displeasure known.

  Your suggestion of reducing the duration to the end of the case, though, is very reasonable, and I will enact that now and adjust the log accordingly. I will also inform ArbCom; feel free to accuse me of acting improperly again. After that, I can think of a great many things that would benefit more from my attention than this thread, so I won't be returning to it unless somebody pings me with a specific question. Once again I will of course abide by whatever the community decides, and this reduction is not intended to make this discussion moot. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 14:48, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

  Even though I have the benefit of having seen you admin many times previously and this sanctioned user being both harassed, and sanctioned for his conduct, the appeal comes down to the circumstances visible by just any person; that's the context in which I noted those three items. Yes, I also noticed the plea for more admins at AN, and it is an all too common scenario where an action might be needed or anyway taken before the case is finalised (in this particular instance the amount of disruption or drama caused by leaving things as they were for just a little longer is in doubt as I said, but I am not persuaded to go further than that now). The usual reason a case is with Arbcom after all is because the community did not sort the overall problem adequately and/or in time, so the decision will take all of that into account. An unpleasant feeling is generated when avoidable complications are added to a case involving users who have contributed usefully in some ways, but have not done so in others; it can unintentionally or otherwise prejudice the outcome both for the users and the project, even with the most brightest arbs ever.

  While you might not take issue with your actions being amended/overturned by admins in the community or arbs, I regret to note that not all sanction-imposing or sanction-enforcing administrators appear to share that value in practice. Historically, some arbs have avoided piping up over their displeasure so that the admin is not slighted or to provide silent encouragement. This does appear to becoming less of a frequency thankfully, but it is certainly not outlawed currently and does involve arbs and users taking extra time on that matter. Overall, for the reasons I just said and others I haven't, once a case is at final phase, I think the project benefits more when admins avoid situations where a question may be raised over whether they have acted improperly or not, and to avoid a dilemma arising as to whether and how the sanction dealt with in the final decision (unless unavoidable) or displeasure should be expressed. In any event, this is just background to address some of the matters you raise here; take from it what you will. Thank you for your assistance and the approach you have adopted as a sanction imposing/enforcing administrator during this appeal; I hope others learn from it also. Ncmvocalist (talk) 17:32, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

• The change to WP:OUTING really needs tweaking. If an editor with an anonymous name (say, Abcdef) on Wikipedia is behaving in a disruptive way, and linking to what their account (also called Abcdef) on, say, Reddit, is doing, then there is no OUTING issue. If, of course, their account on an external site is under their real name, then that's a separate matter. Black Kite (talk) 12:34, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

  I agree, and would be supportive of changes to the policy. I don't think it is consistent with the community's view as it currently stands. Ncmvocalist (talk) 12:46, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

• I guess I really don't understand how this sanction could raise this big a stink. It basically reads "stop trying to link people to off-site accounts", which is a rule everyone already should be following. Weedwacker (talk) 20:43, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

The situation at present appears to be that Wikipedia considers the absolutely anonymity of its accounts to be more important than the their egregiously bad behavior on other sites -- even behavior dedicated, as in this case, to intentionally causing harm to a Wikipedian. Let’s remember, for those of you not following along at home:

• A group of supporters of a fringe movement openly have coordinated to silence their Wikipedia critics and to take control over the process of revising pages concerning their movement and those it seeks to target.
• Ryulong is a priority target of these attacks
• One tactic planned by the attackers is to broadcast derogatory information and innuendo against their targets, making their continued participation in Wikipedia infeasible and/or securing their dismissal from employment. Ryulong has been subjected to particularly harsh treatment because his attackers believe him to be gay and Jewish; when he asked for financial help in an emergency on a non-Wikipedia site, the critics literally smelled blood in the water.
• Relentless offsite attacks, both anti-Semitic and homophobic, have been a particular feature of the campaign against this editor.
• Current policy makes it possible for a Wikipedian opponent to go to another site and post repeated, scurrilous attacks on a named Wikipedian with impunity, and to use that site to recruit new SPAs and to canvass for additional opponents. The victim, on the other hand, must scrupulously refrain from mentioning these attacks on Wikipedia -- even in Wikipedia's administrative and quasi-judicial functions such as ANI and ArbCom.
• The waters are further (but characteristically) clouded by loud appeals for sanctions on grounds that are irrelevant, absurd, or not germane -- such as here, where Ryulong is denounced for having appealed too promptly. Had he waited, of course, the editor would have complained that the matter was stale.

This gives the appearance that Wikipedia prizes the strict anonymity of its editors more highly than fairness, propriety or decency, and further advantages those who coordinate their wikipedia activities offsite. In fact, the coordination visible here was only identified because the offsite proponents wanted to flaunt it: had they used different names offsite, used the telephone or email to plan their attacks, and contacted the victim’s friends and employer privately rather than through a Web site, they would have gained the effect for which they had striven without the possibility of censure. However, they did not even take elementary precautions, and now Ryulong, having elliptically complained of this appalling treatment, is further sanctioned for that complaint. This is a very regrettable way to reward long, if sometimes controversial, service to the project. I write this most reluctantly as (a) I am topic-banned from GamerGate, which is a subtext here (as, it seems, in much of ANI these days), but which I have taken care not to otherwise allude to, and (b) I no longer contribute to Wikipedia, as its behavior is something I cannot countenance. But the alternative here is to remain silent, which would be invidious, or to discuss this offsite: the proper place for technical discussion of internal enforcement is not a journal or a newspaper, but here. I thank you for this indulgence. MarkBernstein (talk) 20:54, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Did you just imply that because Ryulong has been targetted off-site that anyone who finds faults with his behavior on Wikipedia must surely be A) an off-site harasser and B) anti-semitic? Weedwacker (talk) 21:05, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

No. MarkBernstein (talk) 21:21, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

If you're topic-banned, why are you commenting on this? Thargor Orlando (talk) 21:16, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

"Remaining silent in the face of injustice is the same as supporting it. -- Nelson Mandela. MarkBernstein (talk) 21:21, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Yeah I don't think Nelson Mandela was topic banned though. If we're going after "personal attacks" on your personal site you've admitted to owning you've called people defending to Keep the Cultural Marxism article "an infection" [116]. So that's calling ME an infection, as well on your linked twitter account that this was part of a "lobbying campaign" to Jimmy Wales [117]. You were previously topic banned for exactly this, stop accusing people out of nowhere, if you keep saying that criticism of Ryulong is part of an antisemitic and homophobe conspiracy you will probably get site wide banned sooner or later Loganmac (talk) 07:00, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

• While there is no question that Ryulong has been under attack off-site, I'm not convinced that there is any great injustice in the sanction here since these matters have little to do with productive editing. As User:Weedwacker says, it is "a rule everyone already should be following". Given that, @HJ Mitchell:, what do you think about extending this sanction to additional parties, specifically User:Loganmac and User:Auerbachkeller, or others? I'm seeing a lot of discussion of Ryulong's offsite activities here and elsewhere, and I don't see how that contributes to productive editing either, especially if one party is specifically prohibited from discussing them while other parties repeatedly feel the need to bring them up. Gamaliel (talk) 18:03, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

My intention in commenting about others was showing that people have done the same they claimed on others, just on admitted accounts. Not my intention to ever do this on talk pages as disruptive discussion though, consider it a one-off, I'll stop now Loganmac (talk) 02:18, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Works for me. Thank you. Gamaliel (talk) 03:29, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

• • No objection here. I agree completely that, as a general rule, it should apply to everyone by default. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 18:14, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
    • @Gamaliel: and @HJ Mitchell:; I think each of those additional parties have played their part, and it needs to be logged under general sanctions in the event that this persists. As to form, it can be a formal caution, or a restriction on the exact same terms as now-imposed on Ryulong. Once this has been done, there is nothing further needed under this appeal. Ncmvocalist (talk) 14:06, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

I have no idea why we're looking the other way when an editor has been stirring shit up on KiA for months, canvassing discussions, harassing editors or asking others to do so. I also have no idea why, given the obvious connection between the two accounts, we're forced to first pretend there's no connection between the two and when Ryulong (justifiably) gets upset that this constant obnoxious hectoring we sanction them instead of the person doing the shit stirring. If I wasn't involved I would indef loganmac right now. I implore uninvolved administrators to pull their heads out of their ass and treat this situation as though we're not deliberately trying to be as dumb as possible. Protonk (talk) 13:32, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

I've considered it, but I don't think there's enough evidence of on-wiki misconduct to make an indef stick, and the community has historically not supported on-wiki sanctions for off-wiki conduct, with a few exceptions for outing, most of which were handled by ArbCom. I don't think anyone is pretending that the two aren't the same person, but there's very little we can do about it, and repeatedly bringing it up in unrelated discussions on Wikipedia is unhelpful, which is the reason I imposed the restriction. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 14:33, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

There are literally dozens of posts riling up thousands of KiA members about Ryulong or the Gamergate topic area, an area we know to be rife with canvassing and outside involvement from 8chan and KiA. It's bizarre that we have an editor here responsible for the vast majority of the wikipedia related posts on KiA in a topic area that is at Arbcom largely because of disruption from the same sources (or gamgergaters more broadly) and we don't see that as impinging upon on wiki-conduct. What's unhelpful is that we continue to look the other way in service of...what, exactly? The fig leaf of an underscore? The need for some positive connection made on wiki (which has been provided by the devil's advocate and others on the arbcom case)? The tacit admission (in a discussion with PresN on the same case) that the accounts are basically the same? Do we need to wait for them to take umbrage at another editor and dig shit up about them on reddit? What's the point where we decide that this is intolerable as a community? Protonk (talk) 14:59, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm not unsympathetic, but making a block you fully expect would b overturned at ANI is at best poor form and, given that the subject is a party to an arbitration case, desysopping would not e out of he question. I quite like my admin bit—it means I can block the obvious trolls, even if I'm continually frustrated at what the community considers obvious. But admins are servants of the community; if we were as much of a law unto ourselves as in the popular meme, I'd have indef'd almost everyone who's been significantly involved with that article and deleted and salted it. Feel free to start a new subsection, though, or try to change policy in the appropriate fora—maybe this ridiculous "controversy" has given the community a greater appetite for the removal of tendentious editors though less messy means. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:59, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

I understand that, and I appreciate the fact that any admin looking at this situation faces the same general problem. Protonk (talk) 16:37, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

We don't need an indef—a topic ban can be imposed by any uninvolved admin and that would do the job as far as enwiki is concerned. Johnuniq (talk) 23:28, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

@Johnuniq: The trouble is uninvolved admins who are reviewing this discussion are not doing that either, which is disappointing. I also note that an arb said the PD may not be posted for yet another fortnight (and it seems no interim measures are being imposed), so clearly this isn't going to be resolved anytime soon. So great; over the many years we have all been here, there has been universal agreement by editors, administrators, arbitrator-elects, arbitrators, and so forth, that tendentious editing is not acceptable and better steps will be taken against it. Yet, I question what has changed in all of that time really. Even accepting the suggestion made by HJ Mitchell that desysopping would not be out of the question for imposing the indef block proposed by Protonk, it makes no sense to believe that a desysop threat exists by imposing a caution or restriction under general sanctions (as you, Gamaliel and I have proposed/endorsed here). Is it beneficial to leave this appeal so that the involved problem editors remain where they are, or was some form of action (however great or slight) warranted against them too? If it was warranted, is there a reason that action should not be implemented before closing this appeal? I don't think there is and think someone should act...but I pass the question back to HJM and others. (I can't reasonably expect Gamaliel to act in dual circumstances where this appeal concerns HJM's decision to only sanction Ryulong, and HJM had proposed in the case workshop against Gamaliel being an admin - even though I consider the latter was fundamentally flawed). Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:28, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Personally, given the scrutiny and hassle, at this time I won't consider anything stronger for Loganmac than the same restriction placed on Ryulong unless a case is presented at the sanctions enforcement page first or matters escalate significantly. Gamaliel (talk) 18:21, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Proposal for a 2 way IBAN (+gentleman's agreement) for User:Ryulong and User:Auerbachkeller

This is a silly argument about an even sillier dispute (between two people who should know better) within a sillier still "controversy" that has already sucked in far too much admin time. Ryulong/Auerbachkeller please for everyone's sake (including your own), give each other a wide berth—I don't care who started it. Everyone else, please move on and find a nice, no-controversial article to work on. Thank you. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 02:34, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I brought this idea up a week or so ago at Arbcom, after which both editors were given warnings about their interactions. [118] [119]. I would like to repropose the IBAN because it is still the case that nothing good ever happens when these two editors interact. However, I think an IBAN should only be put in place if the two editors can make a gentleman's agreement to stop talking about eachother off-site as well, mostly because so much of their dispute is in relation to offsite behavior. Bosstopher (talk) 23:04, 4 January 2015 (UTC) An excellent suggestion. I hope that User:Ryulong and User:Auerbachkeller respond to it, but if they do not and still continue to argue about matters that have nothing to do with productive article editing, then we should impose this IBAN upon them. Gamaliel (talk) 03:29, 5 January 2015 (UTC) @Bosstopher: and @Gamaliel: personally, I'm not convinced that this is going to change the state of disruption caused by these two interacting on any page in Wikipedia. Even prior to the edits by them at this noticeboard for this appeal, their interactions have been problematic. That said, the inability to enforce sanctions for breaches of any gentleman's agreement will bring all of us back here again in due course though under this proposal. So the only part of this proposal that could realistically go anywhere is an on-site mutual interaction ban; given the pending PD, a formal request for enforcement probably won't help, but I note as a reminder that any admin can impose this sanction under general sanctions - at least until the final decision is made. For clarity, I confirm I would endorse such an action. Ncmvocalist (talk) 14:06, 5 January 2015 (UTC) Yes, a gentlemen's agreement is unenforceable, but we can't force the mto stop being rude about each other elsewhere on the Internet. If they would both agree to declare a truce in this rather ridiculous spat, it would benefit everyone (except the manufacturers of headache pills!). HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 14:30, 5 January 2015 (UTC) It would probably benefit the project more if we topic banned Ryulong from GG-related articles/discussions and made it a one-way interaction ban on-wiki for Auerbach. He's going to write his articles anyway, so why give him the ability to dig for fodder by goading Ryulong? Meanwhile, nothing Ryulong does in this topic benefits us whatsoever, and every interaction he has with the topic is a net negative. While I'm hoping Arbcom does it for us, how much more disruption are we willing to take? Hasn't his rope run out yet? Thargor Orlando (talk) 14:40, 5 January 2015 (UTC) Since the matter is at ArbCom, it's up to ArbCom to evaluate wider misconduct. Perhaps you should post on the proposed decision talk page to courage them to get their finger out? At this point, the delay means the case is causing more problems than it has thus far solved. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:59, 5 January 2015 (UTC) Proposed decision is due on Wednesday, so the delay isn't really terrible. We don't have to wait on them to act, though. After all, if we can steamroll in community sanctions in less than a day, we can act after 2+ months to topic ban one of the most disruptive actors in the space, no? Thargor Orlando (talk) 16:06, 5 January 2015 (UTC) Wikipedia:General sanctions/Gamergate/Requests for enforcement is open to anyone who wants to post evidence to make a case for such a topic ban. Gamaliel (talk) 21:50, 5 January 2015 (UTC) I haven't even edited the article in two months. How am I disrupting the topic space in that manner?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 03:26, 6 January 2015 (UTC) For the record, I talked to Auerbach a day or two ago and he said he was gonna avoid talking further about Ryulong.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 21:43, 5 January 2015 (UTC) Not needed. Auerbachkeller only responds when Ryulong writes something. If Ryulong simply stops mentioning Auerbach, there is no problem. --DHeyward (talk) 00:03, 6 January 2015 (UTC) I did not mention him at all in this thread but he came anyway. I did not mention him in the arbitration case page sections and he came anyway. He instigates each time.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 03:25, 6 January 2015 (UTC) That does not appear to be consistent with what happened in the section above. Gamaliel (talk) 04:41, 6 January 2015 (UTC) It appears Auerbachkeller is reacting to what Ryulong wrote off-wiki. He noted the same thing happened to him off-wiki as Ryulong. Ryulong then made it a WP issue and personal. The sanction is enough and Ryulong should stop complaining on-wiki about his off-wiki problems. It's not helping. A two-way IBAN that allows one party to bring complaints that the other can't respond is unworkable especially when the IBAN would need to include off-wiki statements. --DHeyward (talk) 06:58, 6 January 2015 (UTC) Excuse me? I did not make it a Wikipedia issue. Auerbach came to Wikipedia because he did not like a sentence I had wrote about someone criticizing something he wrote and has been here since to insert himself into any and all discussions that happen to involve me. I do not go out of my way to find shit he's done. It comes to me regardless because he's famous and I'm nobody.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 20:15, 6 January 2015 (UTC) Given that you view this to be the case, would you welcome the solution proposed above? It would stop all the grievances you've listed. Bosstopher (talk) 21:43, 6 January 2015 (UTC) And Ryulong is reacting to what Loganmac and others have written off-wiki. What you have written applies in the opposite way as well. But since no one on either side seems willing to "simply stop", here we are. Gamaliel (talk) 23:34, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Massive POV/vandalism issues on Ali Curtis

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A various number of IPs are vandalizing The Ali Curtis page by inserting insults

Just one of the many vandal edits Weegeerunner (talk) 19:31, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

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got no help from admins last time i posted here, can someone please help now?

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original version

messed up version

there seems to be a problem with the aligment of text and result bars furthermore the bars are seperated too far apart vertically, last time i posted i did not recieve help that changed thay, can someone please help now Dannis243 (talk) 13:07, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

@Dannis243: try WP:VPT. --Mdann52talk to me! 13:58, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

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IP addresses removing content (possible sock)

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Three IP addresses, 108.31.156.228, 173.199.65.23 and 173.79.205.152, have been removing content on The Fosters (2013 TV series) in the Controversy section without previous discussion. They have been consistently removing content about One Million Moms dishonoring the show, saying it affects neutrality of the section or it has nothing to do with the show. The info there has been placed for many reasons, and it shows the point of view and goal of the organization. Neither IP address has the will to reach a consensus on the talk page. Warnings and requests have been placed on their talk pages, in hopes to stop it, only to no avail. One has even added content without citation, twice already, especially emphasizing the word fair, to prove their point. I have added a new section in the talk page, but neither have reached other editors through it before the current revision. I also believe it's a possible sock. They have been editing the section, the same edits, since the first IP started all of this. I would call this edit warring, but it's gone all over the place. And I do not know where else to put this in. Callmemirela (talk) 01:08, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

• @Callmemirela: You'd probably be better off first trying WP:RFPP to request temporary semi-protection of the page since these edits are being done by IP editors. If that doesn't resolve in an amicable resolution, the next place I'd take it would be WP:SPI to investigate the sockpuppetry. The temporary semi-protection will most likely resolve the issue, unless the problem had been happening longer than recently, which could justify a longer period of semi-protection. Steel1943 (talk) 01:16, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

@Callmemirela: By the way, I see that you use Twinkle. The quickest way to make the page protection request would be to go to The Fosters (2013 TV series), clicking the "TW" (Twinkle) tab, and clicking "RPP" (Request Page Protection). There, you can request "Temporary Semi-Protection" with the drop-down lists. After that, the request should be automatically posted on WP:RFPP. Steel1943 (talk) 01:24, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

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User making non sense edits on my talk page after I nominated non sense page for deletion

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Resolved

 – via indefblock. Materialscientist (talk) 00:13, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

USER:Lolgirlxoxo123 initially began making non-sense articles. After I nominated her article for speedy-delete, she makes further non-sense edits on my talk page such as this [120].

Kind Regards

NetworkOP (talk) 23:26, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

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Abusive user

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Can someone review Funkatastic (talk · contribs) contributions, I think at least this user needs a "Hey, that's not how we do things here" block. Attacks on users, edit warring. I didn't know where else to bring this up. The user's talk page is kept clean of most warnings given. Mlpearc (open channel) 00:42, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

The user is free to clear his talk page. The talk page history will retain it all. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:48, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

I know that, I just mentioned it so it doesn't get overlooked :) Mlpearc (open channel) 00:49, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Roger. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:53, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

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Need indef ban for NOTHERE by Beforyouwere and and IP

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Editor created acct 4 days ago and made a series of mostly minor edits to get autoconfirmed. As soon as they were autoconfirmed they [reverted] a large number of changes made to Momin Khawaja 4 days back to clean up a long term POV vandalism problem. 4 days ago the article was page protected by User:HJ_Mitchell and one IP was banned. Khawaja is the first convicted terrorist in Canada. He is serving life in a supermax in Canada, a sentence confirmed by the Supreme Court of Canada. The reverted content includes such gems " Legally and from the perspective of conventional wisdom and justice, it is questionable how could he be sentenced to a Life and 24 years under terrorism? ", he is a "hostage" in jail, and that his conviction was based on race and religion.

1. Increase the protection to WP:WHITELOCK since on Jan 4, 2015 I had to revert everything back to June 7, 2014 to cleanup all the POV junk.
2. the IP version User:69.196.129.102 edit warred, asked to have a different revert date - a point when the article was REALLY POV, and changed a large template from "People associated with terrorism who have lived in Canada" to read "Victims of torture by the Government of Canada".
3. A related short term blocked IP 108.161.126.189 (talk · contribs · deleted · count · AfD · logs · block log · lu · rfar · spi)

Please Indef both these accts under WP:NOTHERE or whatever other reason: Beforyouwere (talk · contribs · deleted · count · AfD · logs · block log · lu · rfar · spi) and 69.196.129.102 (talk · contribs · deleted · count · AfD · logs · block log · lu · rfar · spi) Thanks Legacypac (talk) 23:26, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Editor is continuing to edit war and has engaged on my talk page. I'm proud to be part of the "internet media Intelligence community." as at least they recognize my intelligence :) [121] Legacypac (talk) 00:46, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

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Legal Threat at Seph Lawless

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In cleaning the Seph Lawless article of publications that do not exist (ISBN numbers and publisher were non-existent) and of sources that did not match up to the sentence/paragraph, I ran into an unfortunate incident - that escalated after the article was placed up for deletion.

Seph Lawless contacted me via Facebook with what I perceive as a legal threat. I emailed OTRS about this; shortly after, one of the edits under Talk:Seph_Lawless by user:briancahal (a fake account created by I presume Seph Lawless) involved some sensitive and personal information. It was scrubbed by user:FreeRangeFrog.

On Facebook, Seth Lawless wrote:

• Seph Lawless 1/16 11:50am ;Sherman...we know what you have been doing for awhile. I was nice to you even knowing all along what you were doing. Don't mistake my kindness for weakness. Undo everything you did to the page. Your revisions will just be removed. The writer of the page is a journalist form the daily news and they tracked your ip address. You will remove your revisions and move on with your life and face the consequences of your actions. I'm giving you one last chance.

• Sherman Cahal 1/6, 11:50am ; (thumbs up)

• Seph Lawless 1/6, 11:53am ; I don't want to cooperate with the detectives in North Randall like I'm supposed too by turning people in to the police as part of my plea bargain.

• Sherman Cahal 1/6, 11:54am ; You are more than welcome to contest the deletion of your page.

• Seph Lawless 1/6, 11:58am ; It's not that the writer is taking care of that but you clearly removed stories not in accordance with wiki. The guy is a wiki administer that added that last story from Vice. We let you take out the Nikon comment months ago and you were quite until a day after meeting me. You will change it all back now or you will be arrested. i promise you.

• Sherman Cahal 1/6, 11:59am ; Oh good. Thanks for telling me that. I'm an administrator and it's nice to know there was a conflict of interest.

• Seph Lawless 1/6, 12:03pm ; Then you should know that we did that add that story. Sherman I don't think you realize the consequences. You have one hour. You are blocked. We know everything about your family. I recognized you as soon as you walked in that mall. We will be watching. I'm so sorry.

At this point, I looked at the revision history of the article and came across user:Bernie44, a paid editor for the New York Daily News. He identified himself as such here. These issues have continued with blocked calls from his cellular phone, traced to Joseph Merendez, that threaten action if I do not revert the page. He also wrote some other vague threats, which I'm not sure indicates physical harm or not.

I can provide screencaps and links to relevant information via email or other secure channels. A FYI - my name is Sherman Cahal, represented on Wikipedia as seicer. It's been years since I was heavily involved in the backend of WP and much has changed - so I'm not sure what the proper channel is anymore. Any assistance would be much appreciated. Thanks. seicer | talk | contribs 17:34, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

I suggest contacting wiki legal. @Philippe (WMF): may be able to help with that. Given that this also involves threats on Facebook, you may be able to seek help from Facebook itself. As they're beginning to harass you off-wiki, you might consider involving the FBI. Blackmane (talk) 22:41, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. I wonder if I should email Philippe_(WMF) directly. As for Facebook, it's been reported but there has been no action taken so far, which is not too surprising. As for the calls, they have been reported to the carrier, Sprint, and to the Cleveland PD. (There are some laws against spoofing and harassing.) seicer | talk | contribs 03:49, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

You can email me directly. :-) philippe@wikimedia.org. Philippe Beaudette, Wikimedia Foundation (talk) 06:17, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

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Canvassing and campaigning, aspersion, POV pushing, editing in edits and editing to shame by User:P-123

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• P-123 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), formerly P123ct1

Canvassing and campaigning P-123 is quite conscious of the issue of canvassing as indicated by edits of:

1 15:09, 29 September 2014 "then realised it could be seen as canvassing an edit and there are strict rules about this!"

2 22:19, 24 October 2014 "I have amended my comment ... so if there are any spies watching it's hardly a canvassed edit!"

Instances of canvassing and campaigning include:

3 12:07, 2 December 2014 to Felino123 "Your contributions are valuable"

4 12:46, 17 November 2014 Gazkthul reverts P-123's deletion of text at User talk:Gazkthul that read, "What about "diktat"? In history-writing this is a neutral term, but to me for a heading in "Governance" it is a POV, loaded word"

5 13:06, 6 December 2014 to Wheels of steel0 "The editor was banned. "... for his manipulations" is a WP:PA". The editor mentioned is Technophant (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). I was not pinged I have not been personally asked to account for my earlier edit.

6 11:38, 21 December 2014 to Gazkthul "I hope you can knock some sense into them. Good luck; you will need it." (typo - s/b GraniteSand Legacypac (talk) 18:24, 27 December 2014 (UTC))

7 09:54, 26 December 2014 repositioning and emboldening talk page announcement with content "I can no longer copy-edit this article as it is moving in a direction I disagree with too much."

[numbers added to match comments]

Aspersion, POV pushing and editing in edits
Can I also cite P-123's earlier content here, where it was stated: "All this must be very galling for you, given your peaceable stance on things (I have read your userpage). WP can be a bearpit and it has nearly stopped me editing in the past (before you arrived on the ISIS page). Just hang on in there. :):) 08:19, 24 October 2014 (UTC)" and here where the view was stated, "You and a couple of other editors have the best manners on the TP, IMO. ... 20:12, 10 December 2014 (UTC)".

All the same I receive comments such as this, in this case "I have been very concerned about your conduct on the Talk page with regard to some of the editing in the article for a very long time."

I think that issues on this regard are well covered in the thread Pro-ISIL and anti-ISIL as started by P-123 in which I believe that P-123 is well demonstrated as being the editor with the POV issues.

I think that it is also demonstrated in the thread: RFC: Lists of countries and territories, List of sovereign states, List of active rebel groups and ISIL. P-123 made this edit which I have regarded to break WP:OR, WP:RS, WP:NPOV and WP:INDCRIT. It was made on an important thread intended to reach a consensus as to whether entries on the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant should be barred from being entered into article pages and listings otherwise reserved for countries, nations and states yet, without any substantiation, P-123's content asserted, "Any lawyer can weasel out of it, but these are all hard facts, and they have to be dealt with as such in this article. These facts should not be twisted or denied with sophistries". With intention to save public discord or personal embarrassment I privately broached the subject and then challenged what I considered to be argumentative talk page content on a User talk page thread with final version here. (A reference that I saw but did not file in researching this AN/I relates to a comment by P-123 now in the archive of my talk page to the effect of P-123 stating that s/he would like editors to be more ~direct with him/her). None-the-less, I went too far in subsequent edits of this content to on one occasion say that "you continue to argue dirty" which, after thread deletion and reinstatement, I edited to say, "(add: in my view) you continue to argue dirty (add: unfairly)".

At this point, in contrast to all my efforts to present dealings with P-123, in with private approaches, my mail was hacked in this form so as to, I believe, present maximum personal embarrassment. I retrieved my text to original form with amendments made as here. P-123 has taken the view presented here saying "Have some respect for another editor's Talk page" to which I replied here saying "Have some respect for edits and threads". None-the-less, one of my article talk page texts was edited into here with the intruding text being removed by me here, which was followed by P-123 collapsing the content which I view to have been misrepresented as a "refactoring muddle" (the texts were only moved) here and with further additions to my text being added here which again claimed that the comments were refactored.

Just in the run up to Christmas I have had a number of threads started asserting criticising me in various ways on the talk pages of two separate admins: Lor and PBS. I have repeatedly asked and pleaded P-123 to desist from making unsubstantiated accusations and this can be confirmed by searching through any related content for terms such as "BEGGING" and "ASPERSIONS". Just for the sake of clarifying issues I even initiated a thread for the sake of clarification entitled My admission of wrong. Nothing seems to work. I have no problem with criticism but criticisms need to be substantiated. I really feel at my wits end with this and have no idea what will happen next.

Shaming
I have continually sought to raise issues privately with P-123 as this editor has repeatedly indicated a concern for reputation as indicated here with "I have a reputation to protect" and here with "What does that do for my reputation?"

However, when dealing with another editor P-123, despite having been in situations in which showed other ways of working, chose to headline a user name here on an article talk page which I reedited here.

Please see current Talk:ISIL threads: Ham fisted lead, The group's original aim, any other threads of your choosing and content on my talk page and recent archive for further information. Nothing except for items that P-123 has with drawn or, I think, one thing that I have immediately deleted is missing.

Please can something can be done in the current situations. If nothing else can be agreed I suggest a topic ban in relation to the Syrian Civil War and ISIL. From my perspective issues here are wasting too much time.

GregKaye 15:42, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

Comments (1):
I have put in a lot of time (over a period of nearly three weeks) into attempts to stop this dispute escalating (see our Talk page discussions, mainly on the editor's, some is archived now). I can provide evidence of this if needed. (I had prepared an IBAN request but this pre-empts that now). I am concerned about misrepresentation here, which has been one of my main criticisms of this editor in our dealings. Please refer to discussion on the Talk pages of admins PBS and Lor here and here for this. P-123 (talk) 17:12, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

• item 3 - this was intended to encourage an editor. Please read the whole paragraph.
• item 4 - this is my edit, not Gazkthul's. How is this canvassing? I was asking Gazkhtul's opinion.
• item 5 - has to be read in context (my comment was on Gregkaye.) (Why does Gregkaye give Technophant's (an old adversary) full details above, including link to his block log?)
• item 6 - please read in full context here. (wrong editor named, btw) P-123 (talk)
• "Aspersion ...", para 2 - this is disingenuous. Gregkaye has known since at least the beginning of October that I have had concerns about his editing, i.e. what I saw as POV-pushing. I have never made any secret of it, either in our exchanges or on the main Talk page. Until recently this was an amicable disagreement that did not interfere with our good working relationship. Please read the quote in its context in the link given, and note the missing "As you know" at the beginning. There is spin here. (added later)
• "Aspersion ... ", para 4 - Gregkaye seems to object to normal Talk page discussion. In the diff provided the main objection seems to be that he does not like the view I expressed in that particular discussion.
• "Aspersion ...", para 5 - I have explained before how that "hacking" came about. (The "Sovereign state" thread.) I had wanted to annotate that passage for my own records in preparation for the IBAN mentioned above but went about it in the wrong way (for further explanation please see PSB's Talk page here and search "annotated"). Gregkaye says in para 5, "At this point, in contrast to all my efforts to present dealings with P-123, in with private approaches, my mail was hacked in this form so as to, I believe, present maximum personal embarrassment." On PBS's Talk page where I explained this, Gregkaye was pinged, so he knew the real reason. More misrepresentation.
• "Aspersions ...", para 5 - second part of this para deals with Gregkaye's moving two of my comments, one of which was to counter a serious misrepresentation by Gregkaye about my editing practice. (See diff he quoted above.) By moving the comments out of context, their sense has been lost and the misrepresentation is left open (see near collapse box). I raised this with PBS as I am not clear about WP policy on an editor moving another editor's comments around but have not yet had a reply.
• "Aspersions ...", para 6 - I went to Lor and PBS in desperation asking for advice and help on how to deal with this escalating dispute that we could not resolve peaceably. See the links to their Talk pages above, additionally here and here, where this could not be clearer. More selection, more spin.
• "Shaming", para 2 - I own up to this. It was done in the heat of the moment and I readily agreed to Gregkaye's refactoring of the heading when he pointed out my error.

I am glad Gregkaye brought this to AN/I; I even suggested he do this myself, to clear the air. I am not sure of the best solution. I had thought a longish IBAN on both. (I have tried to self-impose one, but it does not work!) A sanction that would enforce us both to be civil to one other would probably work, but I haven't seen anything like this in WP. I am not against a topic ban, as I have already said on my Talk page that I no longer wish to copy-edit or edit the ISIS page. P-123 (talk) 21:05, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
(That should have just said "copy-edit", not "or edit" - see my notice on my Talk page) P-123 (talk) 11:48, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

• Note:, a point by point refutation of P-123's objections is presented further down the page. GregKaye 17:41, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Comments (2):
I formally request the imposition of an interaction ban on Gregkaye and myself for as long a period as possible. P-123 (talk) 01:03, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

After the questions raised by this AN/I have been settled. P-123 (talk) 11:48, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

End of P-123's Comments section

• P-123 Please qualify how any of your efforts have made any contribution "to stop this dispute escalating". The fact is that I have spent inordinate amounts of time with you on a variety of topics but which have included what I consider to have been attempts to diplomatically get past what I consider to be your wrong preconceptions of POV, to present other views and to present issues related to the application of other points in guidelines. I have often got responses that I view as IDNHT. For me personally the issues became very difficult on the issue of aspersion. You say of course it won't happen and then it just happens again and again and again. In the past, as you know, I have gone way out of my way to protect you but your last three week onslaught has broken me. I am no longer willing to collude with and otherwise tolerate your departures from otherwise standard Wikipedia behaviours.

At this point I will give you the same advice that you are familiar that I give to other alleged guideline departing editors. Choose. Either decide to try to prove why all the various accusations don't apply or admit to relevant wrongdoings and give assurances as to why they will not apply in the future. I honestly think that the issues mentioned are clear and that you will not be helped by taking the first route. Everyone has to follow the same set of guidelines. All the guidelines There are no exceptions. GregKaye 21:10, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

• Grekaye: It is a shame that I have only just deleted my reference here to WP:ASPERSIONS. This has been one of my main objections to Gregkaye's dealings with this dispute on our Talk pages, on the Talk pages of PBS and Lor (I have already provided links to their Talk pages which spell this out clearly), and lately even on the main ISIS Talk page. I have been particularly upset about this. I will let whoever adjudicates this make their own judgment from what they see there. I would add that this has happened only recently, since the dispute escalated.
  

Secondly, I have told Gregkaye repeatedly how this dispute has driven me to distraction and how I will not be pushed any more by the relentless questioning. One of the most trying aspects of attempting to settle this dispute has been Gregkaye's interminable requests for citations to back up every word I say. I have said to him repeatedly: that all the answers he seeks are in our Talk page discussions, that I have repeated them often, that he only has to read them again, that I am always straightforward (Gregkaye used to say he liked my directness) so he cannot miss them. It is unreasonable to expect someone to trawl through those endless discussions and extract the answers he seeks to place them before him when he can read them for himself. Even when I have attempted to answer them, the answers are unsatisfactory (see latest threads on his Talk page) so nothing is gained.

Thirdly, it is my opinion that Gregkaye is too sensitive to editorial criticism and too ready to criticise those who depart from WP guidelines and policy and give out advice to them. I will not comment on his customary hectoring tone as here other than to remark on it. There is a lot of rough and tumble in ISIS editing and editors need to be robust enough to take the knocks. Other editors do not have a problem with this. P-123 (talk) 22:27, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

P-123 You can't just make accusation without providing reference as this in many cases eliminates or at least reduces opportunity for resolution. I have regularly asked for justification for your on going accusation and get none. In the recent thread you cite misrepresentation at User talk:Lor#Some information while citing nothing specific. This leaves me to do all the work to attempt any resolution. I'm sick of it. Please understand.

Your second point has no relation to current issues and yet can be easily addressed. The majority of our communication has been conducted at your initiation on my talk page. The archives are open. I have previously cited that there should be ~"no censorship" but now view that topics of discussion should conform to the clear guidelines presented at Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines#User talk pages. What answers have you repeated? What you have often done is repeat accusation without reference or citation. What I perceive to be the spin in your edits to my talk page I find to be "unsatisfactory" as referenced to your edit here and my reply here. I still do not agree with your uncited and, I think, unjustified and continuing assertions. Again ask, plead, beg, for to end your use of uncited accusations that hamper any chance or reply or resolution.

You suggest "Gregkaye is too sensitive to editorial criticism" and pots and kettles immediately come to mind. I am totally fine with criticism if it is based on the fair application of the WP:guidelines that are meant to apply to all. This I believe is well demonstrated in this talk page comment. This followed a general criticism made elsewhere regarding edits that were made out of sequence and I took the unrequired move to make the noted public confession of this infringement activity which I have endeavoured not to repeat. I think that all editors should (ideally) be equally open to guidance as to how to better meet Wikipedia's standards. GregKaye 10:21, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

I have already outlined above and below my reasons for not acceding to your innumerable requests for explanation. I am never sensitive to genuine editorial criticism. No good editor would be. I am sensitive to ad hominem criticism, though. P-123 (talk) 10:51, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

I have also replied to your comment below, "Make your charges properly, or not at all". Please follow your own standards in this. You mention above ad hominem criticism. If you believe this then you are perfectly entitled to start your own AN/I. You have gone privately to one admin and one, presumably, suspected admin so as to start multiple threads regarding supposed issues and, as far as I have seen, you have cited nothing. I have cited the one bit of criticism above that, I think may have been most relevant to this argument. Again your lack of reference leaves me with all the work to do. GregKaye 15:13, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

• Gregkaye: Sorry, I was not referring to ad hominem criticism from you specifically. This next is to expand on the answer given below. On starting "multiple threads", I went to PBS and Lor over three issues, just before Christmas: (1) to PBS to ask for help in resolving the dispute and asking if he could impose an IBAN on both; (2) to Lor for the same thing; (3) to PBS over the collapsed discussion as I was very concerned about it; (4) to PBS over the moving (not refactoring) of text which I was also very concerned about. Unfortunately those four things came to a head at the same time. P-123 (talk) 23:43, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

In my "Comments" above I gave links to their pages which show I was seeking help on how to resolve this dispute, as I said. They had already been involved and knew the situation. There was another request to PBS for help on "Refactoring" with full citations. What is privately? I went to their Talk pages. I have no wish to pursue any sanction after this AN/I and have already let Gregkaye know this. P-123 (talk) 16:57, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

You say, "What I perceive to be the spin in your edits to my talk page I find to be "unsatisfactory" as referenced to your edit here and my reply here." How can an opinion be "spin"? You have called one of my editing views "spin" as well. That does not make sense. You seem determined to take nothing I say at face value. I have found this very trying. P-123 (talk) 23:31, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

P-123 I do take things at face value and object to the values that I think are unnecessarily presented. You now force me to again spend time in breaking things down. In the first of the references here You said:

• "That I "push" for consensus is petty misrepresentation." We can play with words but you had initiated with me to add comment to a thread to seal consensus against Felino123.
• "I see as attempts to control editors", but you say this with no reference that I am trying to get them to adhere to issues like WP:NPA. There have also been issues where I have disputed the way in which a case has been presented and, if you have any specific point of contention, you should bring it. Editors can argue any case they want but should do it within guidelines and in expectation of fair reply to content as presented.

Other points from that post shown to be repeated in the next content. See: hounding.

In the second of the references here I replied:

• "Collapsing a discussion that was way off topic and which continued regardless under the hat" to your assertion "Closing down discussion by collapsing discussion mid-flow as today on main Talk page". This was the issue about which you went to PBS to say, "Gregkaye has collapsed a thread in the middle of a very important discussion on NPOV" when in reality it was a thread proposing a reference to caliphate in the first the lead to which all our conversation was utterly unrelated. You also stated, "I cannot speak freely even on the Talk page now because of it." Anyone can talk freely but, if their content goes beyond the bounds of WP:guidelines, it can be challenged.
• "Remonstrating, when? how? in what way was my content wrong? What is wrong with quoting policy? This is something that you do yourself. Should it be disregarded?" to your assertion "Remonstrating with editors who disagree with you by quoting policy at them and trying to bring them to heel". Non judgemental words like protesting or preferably attempting to correct would be kinder. I am certainly not trying to bring editors to my heel. I have been attempting to call people to the standards presented in the Wikipedia guidelines. Support in this would be appreciated.
• "Requesting that editors behave according to WP:GUIDELINES" to your assertion "Telling editors who disagree with you how they should behave (Felino, Technophant, WheelsofSteel0, P-123)". I added: "Show instances where this was not the case. I think that editors, myself included, should behave. With regard to Technophant you said that you did not understand why he was acting to me as he was and I think that was in thread Guido in the archive of ALL my talk page content. With WheelsofSteel0 you said that s/he was full of PA." If someone's comments are full of PA don't you think that it is fair for these issues to be raised?
• finally you said, "Blackening of editors' reputations with scurrilous charges of manipulation and misrepresentation" to which I immediately replied "Please see all of the above". As far as I had perceived you had adopted a negative spin on everything I had done. Again, if you think that any particular "charge" has been "scurrilous" then you should raise issue on that particular case and in this you should state what was actually said while citing or otherwise referencing evidence that you think relevant.

In regard to blackening reputations are you referring to any of my User talk page discussions with you regarding Technophant (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)? Is there something else? You asserted that "T. would have had an IBAN imposed on you." Has he told you this by e-mail, is it your assumption or on what else is it based. Any editor can review my interactions with Technophant and come to their own conclusions as to who was in the wrong. A review of a thread, Guido, as would content on Technophant's talk page.

In all your presentations above I have interpreted that you have framed content in negative terms. I have said that I perceive this as being spin and this is how I interpret it to be. I find your approach as being extremely argumentative and time wasting. I don't imply that you intended the spin but have my interpretation on the result. From my point of view a negative interpretation of issues has been adopted in every case. Again, even in questioning my perception on this, more time has been wasted. I don't agree with your expressed opinion. Again, none of your content was cited or referenced. This has got to stop. GregKaye 13:20, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

• Misrepresentation: "to seal consensus against Felino123" is another disreputable slur on character. I was consensus-gathering and asking all involved editors to cast their "vote", as it were. It is a good thing WP is not real life.
• I view your wikilawyering with editors, which has been extremely frequent on the Talk page (and throughout this AN'I), as an attempt to control them.
• I do not believe that you closed the discussion because it had gone off-topic. I believe it was because you and Legacypac were disagreeing with my diametrically opposed views on NPOV. As I said to PBS, I believed it was censorship. I have asked PBS to look at this, but again have had no reply yet.
• I think you confuse the word "spin" with "opinion".
• Your ref to Technophant and IBAN: nothing has been said in email about it, this is a deduction from what he said to you on his Talk page.
• On "argumentative and time-wasting": (1) in editing on the main Talk page, this is how you sometimes interpret editors who disagree with your views, in my opinion; (2) on our Talk pages, this is how you interpret my attempts to sort things out with you; I find it difficult to understand what you are driving at a lot of the time and I cannot make myself understood to you. I have equally found you "argumentative and time-wasting", but this is more an observation than a criticism.
• I am not quite sure what this has to do with the ANI/I. P-123 (talk) 16:00, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

P-123 Neither am I sure what this has to do with the AN/I. The AN/I has been written to cover the serious contentions: "Canvassing and campaigning, aspersion, POV pushing, editing in edits and editing to shame by User:P-123". My edit above was in direct reply to your content. There is plenty that I could say in reply to the points above but I believe these should be addressed in an appropriate forum. You say that you want to are looking to present a request for an IBAN which, as I believe I have already said, you are at liberty to do. Any editor is able to review all the related threads themselves. They can do this both on my User talk page with minimal deleted content, on your relatively highly edited page, on talk pages of PBS and Lor and at talk:ISIL. GregKaye 05:55, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Greg: This undignified bickering has to stop. You have made your points, I have made mine. I will only comment if I see major misrepresentation, not minor misrepresentation. In "Comments (2)" I have asked for a comprehensive IBAN. I checked beforehand with the Help Desk which confirmed that an IBAN request could be made during an AN/I. Leave what is presented for others to judge and do not add more to it; that way others will be put off proper perusal of what is here, which will be to your disadvantage. P-123 (talk) 13:21, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

P-123 I have calmly stated my case in a straightforward way. You have offered your objections. I have disagreed. While there is plenty else that I could add the content here, I believe, will provide sufficient information for a reviewing admin to assess.

Did you check to find out whether further information could not be added to an AN/I before instructing "do not add more to it" or is that your opinion? GregKaye 16:54, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Gregkaye: No, I didn't. Just thought it was sensible not to. I am not trying to put you off adding new points, but if you do I would keep them succinct. What bothers me slightly is that others may be reading this now and making their assessments, missing anything that is added or skipping passages that look like more of the same. Shall we collapse this from "This undignified bickering"? I leave it to you. :) P-123 (talk) 18:15, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Comment:
I've been disappointed to see P-123, an editor I used to really respect, become argumentative and combative, seemingly for the sake of picking arguments, because when pushed there is no substance or objective to the point. P-123 fails to grasp NPOV focussing only on the neutral part to the exclusion of the balanced part. The encouragement of disruptive editors on article talk and personal talk to continue disruptive behavior is quite annoying. It appears to me they have been hounding Gregeye across various pages including my talk page [[122]] and [[123]] I've tried to stay out of this fight, but now that we are here, decided to comment. Seems to me P-123 could benefit from stepping back for a bit to get some useful perspective. Legacypac (talk) 18:24, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

• Legacypac is on the same side of the divide, as it were, over WP:NPOV as Gregkaye; they interpret it one way, I interpret it another. For my sin of raising this very important issue and pursuing it relentlessly, I am considered a nuisance and troublemaker by them. No other editor has engaged in this debate on the Talk page recently, although the editor in item 6 has similar views to my own as can be seen in that link. There are a few others, but it would wrong to name them here. Legacypac's "encouragement of disruptive editors on article talk and personal talk to continue disruptive behaviour" is a judgment for the AN/I arbitrator to make on the evidence presented, of course, but "they have been hounding" is inaccurate; that was strictly between Gregkaye and myself. I warn now that any misrepresentation of facts in this AN/I will continue to be exposed. P-123 (talk) 19:09, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

P-123 The other serious issues mentioned include: Canvassing and campaigning, aspersion, editing in edits and editing to shame. There should be no divide. Wikipedia has clear guidelines and indictions as to whether they are being followed are demonstrated in the quotes above as well as at Talk:ISIL#Pro-ISIL and anti-ISIL. 21:18, 27 December 2014. I am pleased that you acknowledge, "that any misrepresentation of facts in this AN/I will continue to be exposed". GregKaye 17:34, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Digression

Digression collapsed and some content deleted struck out as unnecessarily combative. P-123 (talk) I was away from discussion but agree with P-123's collapse was an appropriate move. GregKaye 16:37, 28 December 2014 (UTC) Gregkaye I would leave it to whoever adjudicates this to act as judge and policeman in this matter. I know you like these roles, but it is not appropriate for you to undertake them at AN/I. P-123 (talk) 22:27, 27 December 2014 (UTC) P-123 What exactly are you saying this time? As you have more often taken the punitive, legislative, "nipping in the bud" approach to editors I find your suggestion of roles to be particularly insulting. How have I overstepped my role in the AN/I? Any editor can reply to any other editor so as to highlight perceived issues such as WP:OR, WP:RS, WP:NPOV, WP:INDCRIT or any other guideline based issue. As I have repeatedly stated, in many cases I have even tried to avoid direct article talk page confrontation by raising issues privately. As you know my first attempt has always been to try to approach an editor personally with attempts to reason a matter through. GregKaye 11:22, 28 December 2014 (UTC) GregKaye: No, you are not having that. I took one editor to SPI for fairly obvious sock-puppeting, which action you agreed with and supported. I have never taken action against another editor. I do not take editors to task for infringing WP policy and guidance either (although I have supported you and Legacpac when you have taken editors to noticeboards). I do not feel it is my place to do that. P-123 (talk) 11:40, 28 December 2014 (UTC) I had forgotten about the RfC/U that I and another editor took out on one editor, although technically the first editor took it out and I joined in. P-123 (talk) 01:30, 29 December 2014 (UTC) P-123 And this was the same editor that you got me to take to AN/I despite my reluctance to do so. How many times have you (add: have) privately canvassed editors towards the taking of action with other editors, otherwise advocated such action or highlighted infringement publicly for instance on article talk pages or (add: and there is evidence suggestive that you have) arranged such action on the phone e-mail?. GregKaye ✍♪ 12:04, 28 December 2014 (UTC) GregKaye That is scurrilous and dangerous talk. It is defamation of an editor's character by insinuation. Again. Make your charges properly, or not at all. P-123 (talk) 12:45, 28 December 2014 (UTC) P-123 All I was trying in indicate in response to your policeman and judge comment is that, from my perception of things, you have a more "the punitive, legislative, "nipping in the bud" approach" than I. I did not think that this content was relevant to the AN/I as presented. I can search through and find the references if you wish. I would ask that you please hold to the sentiment, "Make your charges properly, or not at all". It is very representative of a point of contention that I have also various made on a great many occasions. GregKaye 14:29, 28 December 2014 (UTC) We both know what you meant by email contact and that you know the full story there. That was a deliberate smear tactic. P-123 (talk) 22:57, 28 December 2014 (UTC) I heard the story. You now assure that it is the full story. My initial question, "How many times have you ... arranged such action on e-mail" was genuine and placed in the context of a claim that I was especially the one who liked the roles of judge and policeman. A statement was then made, again in this context. There is no slur, only reply to the slurs that you have struck. GregKaye 17:30, 30 December 2014 (UTC) Fgs, Greg! Of course it is. It was gone into in enormous detail at the time as you know. Why so much paranoia? There has been no other such action apart from the sock-puppet case and no, there was no consulting by email there, I did it on my own. And re re policeman: touché. :) P-123 (talk) 18:43, 30 December 2014 (UTC) [above comments added out of chronological sequence]

Correct - relentless pursuit of an issue to the point of being a nuisance and troublemaker. It's very wrong to try to make an article about a terrorist organization - one that even al-Qaida rejects as too extreme - neutral. We need to have balance to all claims they make given the worldwide rejection of their claims and actions. To be clear, since I've been misinterpreted, I mean above that P-123 has been hounding Gregkaye, in my observation, for weeks. The editor in Item 6 that P-123 is encouraging to "knock some sense into them" was 3 month ISIL topic banned for being disruptive (recently lifted), which proves the point about "encouraging disruptive editors". And why has P-123 pushed my first comment out of order? Makes things hard to follow and confusing. Legacypac (talk) 22:04, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

Legacypac: Technical problem. I intended my "Comments" section to end where in fact it says 21:05. I had been accumulating them, broke off to respond to your comment, returned to adding to them and added signature at the end of it, at 21.05. Then I went on to answer Gregkaye's responses. I did not mean to push your comment to one side. My apologies. P-123 (talk) 22:58, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

Legacypac: To repeat, I view the WP:NPOV issue as crucial to the editing of this article. You do not, hence your view that pursuit of it was disruptive. You disagree with an editor over what NPOV is in this article, hence you regard them as a nuisance and a troublemaker. That type of attitude to editors who disagree with you both suggests something I do not intend to broach here. I did not agree with the editor in item 6 on his stance on an editing point that led to his ban, btw, though I did think the ban was too harsh; I told him so in a very brief exchange about that subsequently. I had no idea what his views were about NPOV or anything else (they were not voiced on the Talk page) until I saw his response to my comment, as you will see if you read those exchanges carefully. So the canvassing charge there does not hold water. On the "hounding" point I misinterpreted "they", which I now see you meant in the Wikipedian sense of "s/he", sorry. The hounding was mutual, btw, but I would not expect you to be objective about this given all I said ealier, though to be fair, it would be unreasonable to expect you to know this, as you probably have not followed the labyrinthine twists and turns of this dispute. (I defy any sane person to attempt it, unless really necessary, as there are screeds and screeds of it on our Talk pages.) P-123 (talk) 23:30, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

I DO view NPOV as important which is why I oppose all efforts to present highly disputed fictional positions taken by terrorists as factual in WP. My view of NPOV on this topic is pretty mainstream as seen here and here as a couple examples of efforts to keep WP NPOV. Legacypac (talk) 00:01, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

Legacypac I am very sorry, I misrepresented you there. I have struck out the comment. But who is right and wrong on this is not the issue at hand in this AN/I. The charge is of POV-pushing, which I hope I have answered. P-123 (talk) 00:38, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

The third of the five charges presented was of POV-pushing and, with the other charges mentioned, the closing admin will come to a decision. Your unsubstantiated accusations "You do not"struck and "you regard them as a nuisance and a troublemaker"not struck and your derision "I would not expect you to be objective" are again, I think, clear examples of the WP:ASPERSIONS of which I have been trying to make you aware. Those screeds are mainly on my talk page where you have regularly come to edit. Through it all there has been plenty of good and mutually beneficial material. However potential "eavesdroppers" may be well warned. GregKaye 18:42, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

More misrepresentation. I deliberately kept Gregkaye off my Talk page when this dispute was well advanced, having asked him not to post any more comments. Until then I would say there were roughly equal amounts covering this dispute on both Talk pages. That comment gives the impression I was hounding. Again, the facts are trivial, but the misrepresesentation is not. P-123 (talk) 16:49, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Point by point response to "Comments (1)" by P-123 above

• Item 4, the full quote here was "The quarrelling and walls of text on the Talk page now I think is driving editors away. I have only just seen your comments on the Talk page about the length of the article, and the answer to my question about criticism was there! Sorry about this. I am assuming you mean the emotive words in "Criticism". I have already gone through the article changing "massacres" and "executions" to neutral "killings". What about "diktat"? In history-writing this is a neutral term, but to me for a heading in "Governance" it is a POV, loaded word. ~ P123ct1 (talk) 11:26, 17 November 2014 (UTC)" I think that this is pushing opinion and canvassing on a debate that at this same time was underway on the talk page. See #Diktats
• Item 6, In whatever context, "I hope you can knock some sense into them. Good luck; you will need it", is canvassing. I also think that it counts as an encouragement of conflict of which we have already seen too much at talk:ISIL.
• Aspersion, POV pushing and editing in edits, para 2, The context is found here. There is nothing disingenuous. To put that in context the full quote was, "As you know I have been very concerned about your conduct on the Talk page with regard to some of the editing in the article for a very long time. The conflict between this and our otherwise good working relationship until recently has always put an enormous strain on me which you may not be aware of. I am afraid your latest aggression was the last straw and from now on I will be putting the article first. This is to inform you that I have added my concern to Anastaisis'" The alleged aspersion is within, "I have been very concerned about your conduct on the Talk page with regard to some of the editing in the article for a very long time." From my personal point of view I have felt it difficult to address issues related to NPOV with P-123 and had regularly deferred to discussing this editor's interpretation of my own alleged POV bias. More recently I have also began to challenge back but, as far as I am aware, this has always been in the context of my talk page. More recently still P-123 initiated the Pro-ISIL and anti-ISIL thread at Talk:ISIL and I gave a full presentation of how I viewed that the principles of NPOV were rightly applied in regard to the situations mentioned to which there was no reply. Despite discussion I still get comments alluding to some supposed concerning conduct of mine on the talk page. I don't think that this is good enough. I can understand that discussions may have "put an enormous strain" on P-123 but, again, the conversations were on my talk page. There was no hounding. From my perspective I simply replied as best I could to a great number of often drawn out conversations. As far as I can see the latest aggression mentioned was my reference to P-123's sophisms etc. text to which, in my second attempted private User talk page response I said "you continue to argue dirty" which at the time of the 'concerns' post had been refactored to "argue unfairly". That's what I think. I only wish I had developed the terminology of "scurrilous slurs" at the time. The informing of the concern was on Lor's talk page with new editor Anastaisis being pinged.
• Aspersion, POV pushing and editing in edits, para 4, the edit again mentioned contains the text, "Any lawyer can weasel out of it, but these are all hard facts, and they have to be dealt with as such in this article. These facts should not be twisted or denied with sophistries." I still regard the whole content to flagrantly break WP:OR, WP:RS, WP:NPOV and WP:INDCRIT. Again P-123's content was here entered on the 'important thread intended to reach a consensus as to whether entries on the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant should be barred from being entered into article pages and listings otherwise reserved for countries, nations and states' and yet, without any basis of logical support that I can see for the proposal, P-123 still I think alluded to lawyering weaseling supposed hard facts (certainly not established in talk page discussion and refuted in the "Pro-ISIL..." thread), twisting, denial and the use of sophistries. I responded with annoyance yes, but I would hope for better from Wikipedia editors than this.
• Aspersion, POV pushing and editing in edits, para 5, absolutely I think my edit was hacked. Wikipedia editor's have no right to edit into other editor's contents. I did believe that this edit was placed to provide maximum personal embarrassment. It was put on display with bold, bracketed and capitalised comment and drawing passing editor's attention to your IBAN proposal which should otherwise be presented in an appropriate forum. Such a forum would also permit the fair presentation to the, I believe, scurrilous slurs that were presented on the main article talk page.
• Aspersion, POV pushing and editing in edits, para 5, again you should not have edited into my edits.
• Aspersion, POV pushing and editing in edits, para 6, You say that you went to Lor and PBS in desparation. I had started the thread Sovereign state to you privately on your talk page partly to try to help you avoid potential conflict with another editor and then added to content with annoyance at the scurrilous slurs that I interpret that you had made and still not recognised on the article talk page.

While I admit to frustrated response I see that there is no excuse for the editorial activities mentioned. P-123 has been fully aware of topics mentioned and in some cases I have personally provided provided perspectives on the issues mentioned. Editor's are really obliged to edit according to practice presented in the guidelines and P-123 is no exception to this. Reassurances should be given that efforts will be made so that the editing practices mentioned will not be repeated. GregKaye 11:53, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Gregkaye: You are repeating yourself. The "Sovereign state" complaint was answered in para 5 in "Comments (1)"; you are being disingenuous about this, you knew what had happened. This petty sniping has to stop; it will not help your case. The IBAN I requested in "Comments (2)" is now beginning to look like a very good idea. , as you seem incapable of dropping this. I am prepared to forgive and forget and get back to editing, but I will not tolerate misrepresentation. P-123 (talk) 13:49, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

P-123 I have presented a case, you have offered limited objections, I have proposed refutations to your objections. In regard to the '"Sovereign state" complaint' please also see the question presented in my post of 16:40, 30 December below. Accusations of an editor being "disingenuous" and engaging in "petty sniping" are serious. I have presented what happened. My case is presented to specifically address guidelines based behaviours as related to content above. For me it is genuinely with heavy heart that I am pursuing this action. I find it ridiculous that things have come this far and yet I see no choice other than to follow through on an AN/I that was enacted upon at your suggestion. The sovereign state issue, for one, is clear to me. In this your content was, in my view and your wording, full of "scurrilous slurs". While it is always preferable to have tolerable relationships with fellow editors, you can do as you like with your forgive and forget. The only issue here is that everyone in Wikipedia has the same obligation to in every way practicable edit in according to guidelines. I have found your editing practice to be disappointing in my personal view is that and my interpretation is that your resistance to face up to some clear issues is symptomatic of the problem. GregKaye 18:20, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Obviously I cannot make you think what you don't want to think, Greg. It seems to me you are determined to think ill of me and impute mala fides to everything I do. How can it have gone from exactly the opposite to this, in one month? We were always frank with each other and it has gone sour, and I cannot even remember exactly what the trigger was now. I do not agree with your assessment and it is not through pride. Let others decide which guidelines I have gone against, from the evidence you presented. One thing I do regret is having cast WP:ASPERSIONS on you in this AN/I, for which I apologise. Let's stop, this isn't Jeremy Kyle. P-123 (talk) 19:25, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Lor is not an admin

Sorry, I just want to point out that User:Lor is not an admin, although he definitely looks like one. Asking Lor for help isn't going to solve anything. 172.56.16.152 (talk) 22:47, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

Pinging admin @PBS:. 172.56.16.152 (talk) 22:54, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

172.56.16.152 Thanks. Both have already been pinged, out of courtesy only, as the admin and editor involved in looking at the dispute before AN/I. P-123 (talk) 23:30, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

• Hold on, admin PBS hasn't been active a few days. Ping admin Bishonen instead. 172.56.16.152 (talk) 23:40, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
  • Yes, I had the impression PBS was away. It is not like him not to respond to posts, and he hasn't been doing for some days now. Not sure Bishonen can help, as s/he has not been involved in this at all. No other admin has. Unless you are suggesting Bishonen should adjudicate this; as a comparative newbie I don't know how these things work. P-123 (talk) 23:48, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

Bishonen or Dougweller should be able to help. 172.56.16.152 (talk) 23:56, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

172.56.16.152 May I ask who you are? You seem quite knowledgeable for an IP. P-123 (talk) 12:12, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

172.56.16.152, you need to answer P-123 when he asks you a valid question. Just say that you are Neil Chadwick aka Technophant aka Stillwaterrising. You also should not be sockpuppeting after being banned. 69.22.169.73 (talk) 21:39, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

69.22.169.73: May I ask you who are as well? No IP would have that kind of knowledge. P-123 (talk) 22:10, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

You mean you want to know my real name? Sure, what's yours first, Sir? 69.22.169.73 (talk) 22:55, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

69.22.169.73 No, I meant username, but it doesn't matter, you have explained to Legacypac. :) P-123 (talk) 10:26, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Comments by GraniteSand

I'll comment on the section in which comments directed at me on my talk page are characterzed as "canvassing". A cursory look by a reasonable outside person show that the comments provided are not canvassing. As a matter of fact, the body of "evidence" in that section in general is rather fevered. The blood between Gregkaye and P-123 has really gone bad over the past few weeks, with no small part being played by Legacypac, seen above, as well. The entire root of this conflict is the incredibly pugnacious climate over at Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant. Both this dispute and the article need outside intervention, preferably not by PBS, as he is both ill-equipped and, by this point, involved. GraniteSand (talk) 02:24, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

• I agree. The article is in serious trouble. P-123 (talk) 09:24, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

I've tried to steer clear of conflict between these two, even told them to calm down at one point. I've commented here because it got really out of hand and landed here. My advice (as I said above) is that P-123 take a break from the topic because it is evidently getting the best of the editor (based on the editor's various comments). Legacypac (talk) 02:32, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

1. GraniteSand Please see WP:OWNTALK, "While the purpose of article talk pages is to discuss the content of articles, the purpose of user talk pages is to draw the attention or discuss the edits of a user." The concept is that, if you see an issue with regard to a user's edits, you go directly to that user so as to raise issues directly. P-123's comments went well beyond these bounds and into canvassing.
2. Please strike your comment, "with no small part being played by Legacypac" or justify. Again see WP:ASPERSIONS. As far as I can remember the only time that Legacypac has made comment on our interaction was in the context of my previous attempt to clear up understandings with P-123 in my thread User talk:GregKaye/Archive 3#My admission of wrong. In that thread Legacypac added comment which I moved to subsection: Respectful interjection, and the comment read: "Respectfully in my opinion both of you have been taking a perfectionist "challenge everything" and eliminate anything that could be read as POV by anyone. Remember this is WP and anyone can edit." I know of no other interjection placed by Legacypac and give you opportunity to elucidate.
3. I agree that the blood has gone bad even to the point of actions being initiated against me here first thing on Christmas Day. This was all in response to P-123's newly acquired habit of editing my edits. We used to have a good relationship as perhaps evidenced by the 379 reverences to P123ct1 in my User talk:GregKaye/Archive 2 alone. In all this time I had tolerated what I have increasingly come to recognise as policy infringement and at this point I saw no reason not to take up the suggestion of initiate the AN/I. There is nothing fevered in the AN/I although the anger on both sides is there. The "entire root of this" AN/I is P-123's manner of behaviour in relation to his/her editing of this and related articles. You cite "the incredibly pugnacious climate over at Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant". I will in turn cite P-123's recent comment here stating, amongst other things, that "You and a couple of other editors have the best manners on the TP, IMO". The whole point of coming to AN/I is to get "outside intervention" which I think has been long overdue. I have no objection to the involvement of another admin but I am very far from an opinion that PBS may have taken any side. Your slurs against this administrator of being "ill-equipped" and "involved" should be substantiated. I suspect that your intervention here is only as a result of the selective canvassing by an editor that, I think, habitually refuses to get the point. If uninvolved people are meant to make contribution, why are you here? GregKaye 08:40, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) In response to Legacypac's comment, I would say it is getting the better of Gregkaye, based on the editor's latest comments on his Talk page. I believe all this has happened because for the very first time I have taken an uncharacteristcally strong line on editing in this article on the main Talk page. These two editors have never been seriously challenged. An editor who did challenge the status quo in the article I believe was driven from the page for his outspoken views. I do not think is right that I should name this editor. I have not met any serious opposition from editors apart from these two. I have always managed to work in harmony with other editors, with no exception, even when our views have been different.. I have even managed to persuade editors to come to consensus after long debate that was getting nowhere, on at least three occasions, and have never been criticised for that. P-123 (talk) 09:11, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

GregKaye: You say, "The "entire root of this" AN/I is P-123's manner of behaviour in relation to his/her editing of this and related articles." Which related articles? This is a very good example of the type of slurs on my editing that Gregkaye has been making recently, in five different venues. In my view, this is defamatory, and if it were not for this AN/I I would probably do something about it. This kind of talk would not be permitted in real life. P-123 (talk) 10:03, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

[next comment added out of chronological sequence]

And that is what I said above in the context of this current content. This comment was made by way of reply to claim that the "entire root of this" AN/I was within something entirely different which I view to be falacious. I have recently challenged Legacypac regarding accountability to the talk page. At the bequest of P-123 I took an editor to AN/I even though this editor had similar views to me. I reject any notion that this AN/I was initiated due to viewpoint issues on the page. It is presented in response to behaviours, behaviours that I think should be applied to this editor's contribution to article discussion and behaviours in relation to this editor's interaction to me. It is as simple as that. GregKaye 13:58, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

Gregkaye: I was referring to the slur about "and related articles". Which related articles? P-123 (talk) 21:36, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

• Gregkaye: You need to answer that question. Which related articles? Until you do, that sentence looks like another misrepresentation. P-123 (talk) 22:22, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

I need to amend what I said in my last comment but one. I said that the two editors had never been seriously challenged. In fact, Gregkaye was challenged over an editing matter at AN/I in October, but the result of the AN/I was inconclusive and he received no sanction. I said that I had managed to work well with all editors. There was an exception in August when there was trouble between myself and another editor who no longer edits in ISIS along with many others. At that time I was less vociferous and forceful than now. I do not think it right to name the editor, but can provide details to whoever arbitrates this AN/I if needed. P-123 (talk) 22:06, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

Further discussion

With regards to GraniteSand comment "preferably not by PBS, as he is both ill-equipped and, by this point, involved." see this topic ban on GraniteSand.As neither Gregkaye or P-123 has made any such accusation I will put those to one side.

The problem here is that two users are distressing each other, but compared to some wikidrams (see for example Auerbach, David (11 December 2014). "Encyclopedia Frown".) this is not a particularly insidious one.

ANI is suitable for dealing with clear breaches of Wikipedia policies and to a lesser extent guidelines. In this case problems are based on differences in points of view of a specific topic which is already subject general sanctions (see Wikipedia:General sanctions/Syrian Civil War and Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant), and as these points of view have not been reconciled despite good will on both sides to try to resolve tensions. These differences in points of view have lead to conflict and a gradual erosion of good faith.

The request for an IBAN is inappropriate while one of the editors are so narrowly focused on the topic area covered by the general sanctions mentioned in the previous paragraph (edit history of P-123, and edit history of Gregkaye. This is because the POV differences inevitably means that the two editors are going to come into conflict over that issue and specifically the article Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant. I see no reason to place an involuntary restriction on either editors at the moment but I would like to encourage user:P-123 to follow up on the statement made higher up this page:

• I am glad Gregkaye brought this to AN/I; I even suggested he do this myself, to clear the air. ... I am not against a topic ban, as I have already said on my Talk page that I no longer wish to copy-edit or edit the ISIS page. P-123 (talk) 21:05, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

If P-123 is willing to agree to such a voluntary restriction on all the pages covered by the relevant general sanctions and the talk pages of those articles for a period of three months, then we can close this ANI. This voluntary moratorium is only to come into affect with an explicit announcement by P-123 in this ANI, and on the understanding that it does not come into affect until Gregkaye agrees to withdraw all allegations listed at the start of this ANI. The self-imposed moratorium will not prevent P-123 voicing a single opinion of not more than 400 words on any "RfC" or "Requested move" on the article talk pages covered by the general sanctions. -- PBS (talk) 15:32, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

I have had responses from both Gregkaye and P-123 to this proposal on my talk page (see this diff). The most specific point is that P-123 states "I changed my mind about a topic ban". -- PBS (talk) 17:21, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks to User:PBS for making the effort to sort this out. He stated above that he'd like to get a voluntary agreement. For two editors like User:P-123 and User:GregKaye who have been active on a topic like ISIS, an IBAN poses obvious difficulties. This leads us to consider the wisdom of a topic ban. Should the voluntary agreement to a topic ban not be found (since P-123 now objects) the option of a mandatory topic ban under WP:GS/SCW should be considered. I suggest that other admins should wait until PBS has finished his efforts before imposing such a remedy. EdJohnston (talk) 18:11, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

Are we talking about topic bans for both editors or only P-123? Dougweller (talk) 22:01, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

Maybe editors could comment here on the merits of a topic ban on P-123 versus both P-123 and GregKaye. This entire thread was opened as a complaint by User:GregKaye. Following his statement, User:P-123 asked for a mutual interaction ban: I formally request the imposition of an interaction ban on Gregkaye and myself for as long a period as possible. A review of Talk:Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant shows that much of the page consists of back-and-forth disputes between the two editors. This shows the wisdom of User:PBS trying to negotiate a voluntary topic ban of both parties. But if one or more editors disagrees, and if we conclude that we might have to sanction just one party then somebody will have to read through all that stuff and weigh the claims. EdJohnston (talk) 23:14, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

• I am shocked that reading all that stuff and weighing the claims is not done routinely at AN/I. Gregkaye and I took a lot of trouble to present and defend the case as carefully as we have. P-123 (talk) 09:03, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

My concern is the edit pattern of P-123 as shown in the edit history I listed at the start of this subsection. Nearly all of the edits in article space are to Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant or related subjects with the exception of some edits to the article "The Fourteen Infallibles" and one edit to the biography article "Billie Whitelaw". The editing interaction of the two in article space can be seen here. Looking through their edit interaction on the talk pages I do not see one as much worse than the other, they both now tend to assume bad faith in what the other says and does. When one editor is editing such a narrow range of articles an IBAN is not an option (if editors were edit a wider range of articles with less overlap then IBAN becomes an option). @EdJohnston my proposed solution was based on what P-123 had offered near the beginning of the section, but that offer has been withdrawn. I had not suggested a voluntary topic ban for both editors as that was not an option that User:GregKaye had offered. Also on my talk page User:GregKaye has stated that "while I would go along with a voluntary restriction if that is what is chosen, my concern is that this resolves nothing". GregKaye is concerned that a break of 3 months interaction between himself and P-123 is only putting the issue on ice -- I tend to think that a cooling off period may help re-establish some good faith (or at least reduce the bad faith) and to encourage P-123 to start to edit wider range of articles. @User:P-123 given the postings by Dougweller and EdJohnston you should be able to see where this conversation is heading, please explain briefly why you have withdrawn you offer to take a wiki-break from editing "Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant". -- PBS (talk) 00:18, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

To clarify, my steadily growing concern over time and at every stage of this process is that nothing is resolved. There are issues related to content in this AN/I that I have raised with P-123 regarding editing behaviour (with these with these issues being firstly raised within the context of our long history of talk page discussion, then in response to discussion that spilled over into article talk page discussion as at here and then, when I did not see any other option available, in this AN/I. The issues that I am raising are "Canvassing and campaigning, aspersion, POV pushing, editing in edits and editing to shame". My concern here as elsewhere is that, as far as I have seen, there is a lack of admittance by P-123 in regard to the issues mentioned and no reassurance seems to be given that the same behaviours will not continue in the future. The issues mentioned, as I have mentioned, are not solely relevant to "ISIL" related topics but are general principles of Wikipedia and the more specific aspersions issue is not specific to me but may similarly be apply to other editors as well. P-123, for instance, declares knowledge of strict rules in regard to canvassing and yet still engages in these behaviours. This editor has a knowledge of guidelines but, as I see it, doesn't like it when an editor starts "Telling editors ... how they should behave" as per my talk page. (All editors should conduct themselves according to Wikipedia guidelines. I don't apply this solely [and with the apparently partisan approach of some editors] only to apply this to editors who disagree with me. This is shown in that I recently left a message with Legacypac relating to what I considered to be best practice here and have similarly presented messages at User talk:Mohammed al-Bukhari, an editor who has similar views as me on some issues, and I was still advocating guidelines based behaviour). Plain and simple, this AN/I is about editor behaviours that I am saying have to stop. Other issues can be dealt with elsewhere. GregKaye 05:03, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Response by P-123 to AN/I charges

I do not believe I have canvassed or campaigned or that I have broken any guidelines on WP:ASPERSIONS, but that is for the adjudicator to determine on the evidence presented. I think that Gregkaye has misinterpreted my intentions on almost everything. I think this is borne out by my detailed answers to his charges at the beginning of this AN/I. I think it is telling that none of these charges has been raised on our Talk pages and came as a great surprise, except the charges of WP:ASPERSIONS and of POV-pushing, which arises from our difference of view on WP:NPOV (which until recently was a long-standing amicable disagreement). I would add that the way I express my strong views on the Talk page which Gregkaye objects to as breaking the WP:ASPERSIONS guideline is nowhere near the level of WP:ASPERSIONS that other editors come to, and he has not taken any action there. Since the dispute started Gregkaye's hostility has grown apace, and mine in reaction, and has reached a pitch in this AN/I that shocked me when I first read his charges a few days ago. P-123 (talk) (signature added later)

Correction: Gregkaye has raised with me on his Talk page his objection to editing within edits. There were several instances of that in the past week or so on the main Talk page (as he noted I have not done it before) and I am still not clear whether it violates any guideline. There have been a couple of instances of the "editing to shame" - where I put the name of editors who had breached some guideline in a heading - but readily accepted the error when pointed out by Gregkaye. This completes the list of reprehensible behaviours that Gregkaye has raised, I believe. P-123 (talk) 08:52, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Further discussion (continued)

The edits to this sub-section since my last edit, by User:GregKaye and P-123 are a microcosm of the problems that this ANI highlights. Unsolicited GregKaye jumps in and muddies the water reiterating points that have been made several times (and given that it is addressed to three experienced edits/administrators teaching grandmothers to suck eggs). It was not helpful as it obscures the simple question I asked P-123. P-123 You have made three posts one of which is inserted out of chronological sequence "I am shocked...", one of which had no signature "I do not believe...", and not one of them did as I requested: given the postings by Dougweller and EdJohnston you should be able to see where this conversation is heading, please explain briefly why you have withdrawn you offer to take a wiki-break from editing "Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant" -- PBS (talk) 10:49, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

PBS: (a) I had not forgotten your question; (b) there is a time-zone difference here; (c) I could not see where the conversation was leading; (d) I was distracted by Gregkaye's digression; (e) last but not least, I was puzzled by your "please explain briefly why you have withdrawn you offer to take a wiki-break from editing "Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant". I had said, "I am not against a topic ban", did not offer a voluntary topic ban (if that is what you meant by an offer to take a wiki-break from editing). I changed my mind because like Gregkaye I would like this question of behaviours sorted out properly before any sanction is applied, voluntary or otherwise. Please make allowances for the stress that Gregkaye and I are under in this AN/I, not least because two once good colleagues have fallen out, which I know distresses us both. P-123 (talk) 11:29, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

• PBS: I can only presume that there are some AN/I conventions or maybe something more basic that I should have researched and followed on this. In this I guess I messed up in that I was trying to raise clarity, not to reduce it. I will happily take relevant direction to move or delete or take other action with content here. GregKaye 20:24, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

@P-123 My question was in reference to I am glad Gregkaye brought this to AN/I; I even suggested he do this myself, to clear the air. ... I am not against a topic ban, as I have already said on my Talk page that I no longer wish to copy-edit or edit the ISIS page. P-123 (talk) 21:05, 27 December 2014 (UTC) specifically as I have already said on my Talk page that I no longer wish to copy-edit or edit the ISIS page. Why have you changed your minded over a twice repeated statement that you no longer wish to copy-edit or edit the ISIS page? -- PBS (talk) 12:07, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Admin PBS has brought up a good point. P-123 should just answer the question. Also, P-123, have you noticed that this ANI is the longest on this page mainly because of your edits? 69.22.169.73 (talk) 21:53, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

I was surprised by that as it wasn't my impression so did a rough count. After the first part ending with my "Comments (2)": P-123 - 155 lines: Gregkaye - 235 lines. My comments were nearly always in response to Gregkaye's; surely self-defence is permitted. P-123 (talk) 12:06, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

PBS: In "Comments (1)", "I no longer wish to copy-edit or edit the ISIS page" was a mistake; "or edit" should not be there. I noted the mistake in small print just beneath that. I had twice said (in ISIS talk and own Talk page) that I no longer wished to copy-edit the page, nothing about editing. Editing is very different from copy-editing, which is what I mainly do in WP (see my userpage). I would like to continue editing ISIS as opposed to copy-editing it, if no IBAN is imposed (which looks increasingly unlikely). I hope that is clear now. P-123 (talk) 15:09, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Proposed Voluntary Resolution

Commenting as an editor with significant interaction with both editors, I would like to build on PBS's great suggestion while finding a way that both can continue to edit freely. Both have made excellent and almost always productive contributions to the articles, and there is minimal content dispute (no edit warring). The problems are in the talk page activity. My suggestion is that the two editors agree to the following terms:

1. No posting to each others talk pages

2. No discussions between the editors on other peoples talk pages

3. Limit interactions on article talk space to different threads except for votes. So if A starts or comments on a thread B stays out of it.

4. Anyone is welcome to participate constructively in any dispute resolution

5. If they breach these terms, anyone else can delete the comments without further debate.

If you both agree, the ANi and everything in it ends. How about that User:P-123 and Gregkaye? Legacypac (talk) 01:40, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Legacypac The AN/I is written to address: "Canvassing and campaigning, aspersion, POV pushing, editing in edits and editing to shame by User:P-123". Any other alleged issues can be dealt with in another forum. GregKaye 05:18, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

What Legacypac suggests is a kind of IBAN on both, and I think he has pinpointed where the problem is: in the actual interaction between Gregkaye and myself, not the editing, although there is obviously a clear divide on some important editing points. As this AN/I has proceeded and Gregkaye has made his views very clear, more so than in any exchanges we have had in our Talk pages - I am speaking only for myself when I say that - I can see that the fundamental problem is that we do not understand each other and probably never will, hence the clashes which started on our Talk pages and as the dispute worsened spread to the main Talk page. I have often been puzzled by the objections Gregkaye has raised on our Talk pages and as I see now have sometimes misinterpreted them, and through this AN/I I understand more now about Gregkaye's objections to my editing activity than I ever did before. I would agree to the solution Legacypac proposes but I do not think Gregkaye would agree to it. P-123 (talk) 07:28, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

This will not work. Lets game play it. GregKaye makes an edit to Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant P-123 reverts it with some comment such as "edit unbalances POV". GregKaye writes on the talk page in a new section "Oh no it does not unbalance the POV because..." P-123 can not post an explanation, GregKaye reverts. Now what? WP:BRD breaks down. Second case P-123 makes an edit and explains in a new section on the talk page "edit to improve the POV", GregKaye can not reply and if GK disagrees and reverts with no discussion WP:BRD breaks down. Also point five "If they breach these terms, anyone else can delete the comments without further debate." bad idea as the deleting editor can be seen as biased and it will shift the debate to one with a proxy. I could go through all your points one at a time, but in brief without good faith this will not work. -- PBS (talk) 10:49, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Well I tried anyway. I'm tired of reading this bickering all over my favorite pages and on my talk page. Legacypac (talk) 12:01, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

• Legacypac's 1 and 2 are a good idea, 4 and 5 not so much, but on 3: I would be prepared to not comment on Gregkaye's edits and/or discussion by Gregkaye of edits if they raise the dreaded NPOV lurgy. Going by past experience I don't think we are likely to clash on anything else, so I don't think other restrictions need be imposed on thread discussion. [First part of comment redacted as irrelevant] P-123 (talk) 14:40, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Ok - how about agreeing to Points 1 & 2 User:Gregkeye? At least that will confine the debate to article space and notice boards? Legacypac (talk) 19:42, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

I much prefer Admin Dougweller's adjudication to impose a 3-months IBAN and Topic Ban to give them time to reflect on their improper behavior. 69.22.169.73 (talk) 21:44, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

69.22.169.73: Could you define exactly the "improper behaviour", please? P-123 (talk) 23:02, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

I could, but I'd much rather you used the 3 months wisely in reflection. De Nile is not just a river in Egypt. Legacypac above noted them and I did a quick search of your contributions and saw this unsigned edit by you, right? [124]. 69.22.169.73 (talk) 23:17, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Further discussion

• P-123 From my point of view the very fact that you consider that the problem is "not the editing" is exactly the reason that the problem has come to this. I have presented, I think, some clear issues above and, to my eyes, I see deflection and avoidance of responsibility. For instance, after I challenged you on the content of your sovereign state edit you radically changed its content. Now you rationalise it as "normal Talk page discussion". From my point of view you have not taken the majority of issues mentioned on board and I consider IDHT. I have added a point by point response to your "Comments (1):" at the end of that section above. Please consider the content presented.

In this thread you promised me "of course"(your words) you would put "an end to the accusation without substantiation" (my words). You have consistently renegued on this promise. Your sovereign state edit was, I think, dripping with scurrilous slurs. That's how I see it and again I think that there is a need for you to put aside what I consider to be your combative approach to talk page editing where a range of non guidelines based tactics seem to me to be acceptable to you. After a long history of long drawn out discussion, after chasing after multiple administrator and suspected administrator threads regarding a User talk page thread which was in response to scurrilous content and after this length of AN/I, I have no faith that these activities will stop. GregKaye 12:11, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Gregkaye: Wake up. How that sovereign state edit came about is in para 5 of "Comments (1)": it was not meant for your eyes, I was annotating it for myself in preparation for an IBAN request, I made a mistake, I should have taken a copy and annotated that, I pinged you when explaining that to PBS, you knew this. Please do not routinely attribute mala fides to my every word and action. Again, the more you add to this AN/I the less likely it is you will get a fair hearing; who wants to trawl through all these repetitions and enormous detail? P-123 (talk) 14:05, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

P-123 One straightforward question. Please answer directly. Within a post in which you state, in a way that seems to be a statement of pure WP:OR, "Cannot justify this view, just seems common sense to me", is it then fair to then assertively state "Any lawyer can weasel out of it, but these are all hard facts, and they have to be dealt with as such in this article. These facts should not be twisted or denied with sophistries"? Full quote found here. Full archived thread, here. Please do not insult with introductions like "Wake up". Also this is English Wikipedia. If you want to make accusation you can do so in the language we all speak. My specific accusation was not of bad faith but stated my view that, in your words, your statement was dripping with "scurrilous slurs". Have a look. How do you read it? There is more that I can say but one thing at a time. GregKaye 16:40, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

I see we have been talking at cross-purposes when talking about "Sovereign state". I thought you were referring to the thread in para 5 in "Aspersions ..." which also is headed "Sovereign state". I cannot see how my comments about lawyers weaseling, etc are so offensive. That kind of talk is par for the course in ISIS talk. Editors can be far harsher and more damning than that, and often personally to other editors. Now I would call ad hominem comments WP:ASPERSIONS, but mine was a general comment, not addressed to any one editor. In my opinion you are over-analysing it, Greg. P-123 (talk) 20:06, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

P-123, I believe that you do not see how your comments about lawyers weaseling, etc are problematic, or how such sweeping criticism of all people that disagree with your arguments is unacceptable in any situation let alone a public article talk page. This saddens me but these arguments are now for a closing admin to assess though I would be happy to research and present other examples should anything further be required. The vast majority of editors at talk:ISIL stay well clear of the type of infringement displayed just in that edit. Its no justification to say I was not wrong because others have been worse than me. The purpose in Wikipedia is solely to develop good, accurate, well reasoned and well presented content. This is why fair presentation of views in a collegiate and not necessarily a combative environment is key. GregKaye 20:37, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Your counsel of perfection is unrealistic in my opinion, Greg. I think you would be better off editing than trying to hold editors to your high behavioural standards. That is the only polite way I can put it. P-123 (talk) 23:26, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

P-123 You do not get it. Here is the difference. In my second response I stated "you continue to argue dirty" which, when the content was placed back onto your personal User page, I edited back to "you continue to argue unfairly". In your public article talk page content you give WP:INDCRIT in a way that I allege infers lawyerism, weaselling, [denial of] "all [the] hard facts" and twisting facts or the denial of facts with sophistries. These scurrilous, unreferenced and unfounded slurs, as I see them, go way beyond anything that I have presented and yet it seems that you don't even see any of this content as wrong. You are happy to dole out your own often unreferenced criticisms yet when you get criticised in connection to this incredibly clear situation as presented, it seems to me that you deny the facts. You mention par for the course. Who are the people who you think have presented a higher level of non-guidelines based, unsubstantiated accusation than this? The standards mentioned are not my standards. They are the standards presented by this encyclopaedia, and encyclopaedia that also sees fit to organise itself with an administrative system to see that those standards are maintained. I had previously had hope, after expending effort elsewhere in trying to present these things to you, that you might come to accept these issues at AN/I and, again, I remain saddened that this is not the case. The primary goal of Wikipedia is to build an encyclopaedia and I do not agree that what I regard to be manipulative partisan presentation has relevance here.

We disagree on this which is fine but, believe me, I have heard everything that you have had to say on this but I do not agree. I have twisted nothing. Your previous angry attack to state ".. you are deaf" has no substantiation. It goes way beyond anything I have said. Thread context as here. GregKaye 09:03, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Gregkaye has often said editors with whom he has been in bitter disputes before are manipulative and misrepresent things, so I am hardly surprised at the above. (See item 5, for example, Gregkaye's comment on his adversary, that he had been "banned for his manipulations"). We have a clear difference of view and I think it should now be left to adjudicators to decide what should be done about this AN/I. I hope the result is acceptable to both of us. I have been driven to distraction by the difficulties between us recently and I apologise to Gregkaye for the criticism and hostility I have shown him during this dispute and during this AN/I. I hope that after this settles we can return to the good working relationship we once had. P-123 (talk) 10:23, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

As an uninvolved observer, I was reading the AN/I and I was thrown back by the length and the extent of this case. I don't see either one of the editors as capable of editing Wikipedia or have a future in editing the project. But, P-123, before I go any further, do you see nothing wrong in your edits on this page at all? 122.152.167.7 (talk) 02:00, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

122.152.167.7: If you mean edits on this AN/I page, yes, I do. I have infringed WP:ASPERSIONS and WP:CIVIL quite a lot when addressing Gregkaye here. I regret this and have apologised to him for it here as you will see. I have also struck through the worst of it. I do not normally behave like this, as my records will show (this dispute excepted). I regret very much that our dispute spilled over into the ISIS Talk page and disrupted it, although we did collapse the worst of our arguments there. Until this ANI and about ten (?) days before it, I think, our dispute was confined to our Talk pages. As to the length, my comments in this AN/I have mostly been in response to Gregkaye's; I had to defend myself against some inaccurate statements by him. I would point out that we were particularly good colleagues until recently (our Talk pages will show this) and have worked together, as a team of two, on ISIS talk on a number of major edits (reorganising the page, for example). When I first saw this AN/I I was quite shocked, as Gregkaye had never hinted before at some of the problems raised (canvassing and campaigning, for example) [Correction: sorry, he did.] I take a collaborative approach to editing, again as the Talk pages will show, and have even guided editors to come to consensus after long debate that was getting nowhere. Gregkaye is a good editor and as I say we have worked collaboratively and well together until this dispute, which started about a month ago, even though we have a very different view on one aspect of editing (NPOV). I am sorry if I have been repetitive as I have said some of this elsewhere in this AN/I, but cannot be sure that all of this long AN/I has been read by those commenting on it. P-123 (talk) 10:00, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Topic ban and Iban for both editors?

I'd suggest a 3 month topic ban for both, running concurrently with a 3 month Iban. Dougweller (talk) 15:50, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

I agree. I think Admin and ARBCOM member Dougweller is a very wise man. Both should use this time off to act in a civil manner and refrain from back and forth confrontation. If any of this is ever repeated, they should be banned permanently. 69.22.169.73 (talk) 21:33, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, but of course I was speaking only as an Admin/Editor, not as an Arb. Dougweller (talk) 21:56, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Little hard to take the IP's views too seriously without knowing which user is hiding behind the IP with 8 edits total, 4 in this thread? Legacypac (talk) 22:03, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

My records will show that in all the time I have been editing in Wikipedia, I have always kept to WP:CIVIL - until this dispute, which has lasted for about a month. P-123 (talk) 22:29, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Legacypac, you are one of the good contributors to Wikipedia, so I will not take your comment as a personal attack but rather a general misconception. Wikipedia allows you to call yourself Legacypac and allows me to call myself 69.22.169.73. Please assume good faith, one of the five pillars of Wikipedia. Thank you. Now, having seen what went on in this ANI, Admin Dougweller's adjudication is a wise one. I might only add that the topic ban should include talk pages where all the confrontation has taken place as well as related topics that may lead to a confrontation between the two editors.

69.22.169.73 (talk) 22:52, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

SUPPORT - There's a lot that justifies both bans on the two editors. 193.109.199.132 (talk) 02:50, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

193.109.199.132, whoever you are, what is there that supports a ban of my editing the article? GregKaye 10:04, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

• Comment Dougweller I definitely want the arguing and related disturbance to stop but had considered that this AN/I would be a positive way forward. My thinking was that an IBAN would, to use PBS the phrasing offered by PBS, do little more than put issues on ice. I would also be happy for comment on individual behaviours and would be pleased to follow any agreed direction given.

As I see it, I have honestly made sincere attempts to broach peace with P-123. I had previously proposed a resolution as shown in diff here In which I offered a badly written but well intentioned the two way proposal:

"...Please, if at any time you want to make accusations in the future, be specific and state the content concerned. If I then think I am wrong I will happily retract, apologise or whatever. You are quite entitles to think what you like and, in regard to any of your accusations, I will be quite happy to agree to disagree. In any case where an unjustified accusation of wrong is maintained regarding some unsubstantiated catalogue of offence or some such, I will respond.

In turn, if I make an accusation regarding a content that I(wrong pronoun/reference was added) think is unfair. An editor can either reply to say why s/he thinks the content is fair, give some other reply or not respond. There is no restriction. If you have a problem with this then please go to dispute resolution." (as at 11:50, 10 December 2014)

I would have welcomed a direct move to dispute resolution with cited references that could be discussed. I honestly believe that my proposal would have worked fine but would welcome any other views.

I reacted personally to P-123's article talk page comments. This was by far my strongest interaction that I have placed on another editor's private user talk page.

Was I wrong to raise issue with P-123's article talk page comments? Were the comments justified? How if at all should I have tackled this? I am really trying to make sense of this and request help.

All the same I don't see how my contribution to article content is being called into question. 08:05, 1 January 2015 (UTC) GregKaye 09:44, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

• Comment - I hope there is going to be some kind of judgment on the charges, as I would very much like to know for both our sakes whether they can be upheld. (I understand and accept the last two charges.) I say this as I want to keep within the policies and guidelines set by Wikipedia and some of them I am a little unclear about, e.g. on canvassing. I think it would help both of us to have some clarity on these things. I am going to keep repeating here that until this dispute, this editor and I had an excellent working relationship (as a casual delve into our archived Talk pages will show). P-123 (talk) 11:37, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
• Support for an immediate Topic ban and Iban, and, at this point, an indefinite ban. Let someone just end this saga. This is painful to watch. They are uncontrollable, highly emotional, vindictive albeit the intermittent appearance of moderation, stubborn, and disruptive. For example, P-123 would say something nice to Gregkaye on his Talk Page and then, with the same breath, blast him with a bunch of personal attacks on here. Their biggest problem is that neither one can see it. They cannot be trusted to edit Wikipedia like normal editors do. Their contributions cannot be an asset because their explosive personalities are a liability to Wikipedia and a waste of project time and space that trumps everything else they do. There is no ifs, ands or buts about this, these two aren't gonna change. The writing is on the wall, this saga will certainly repeat itself if not tomorrow, a week or 3 months later. 194.169.217.134 (talk) 13:28, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

• You are not taking it in context. Until this dispute, Gregkaye and I were good colleagues who in the past have collaborated well on the Talk page despite differences of view. In the past we have both acknowledged to each other that we can be explosive. The trouble only began a month ago, around the time when I started taking a strong line on some editing on the Talk page; I cannot say there was a connection though. As I say, take a casual look at our archived Talk pages in October and November to see how good that relationship was; we had long and interesting conversations about editing in Wikipedia among many other things. Our profound differences on some editing points were "professional" disagreements as we both said then, and they have not hindered this good relationship until now, so much so that when he was at AN/I in October I gave him moral support, although he was on the other side of the divide, as it were. All trouble began in December. I hope Gregkaye would agree with this summary. I am sorry hostilities broke out and want to clear up this mess so we can return to being good colleagues. Not having a judgment on the charges Gregkaye has brought will not help with this. (Neither one can see it? Why else do you think I struck out some of my harsher comments to Gregkaye in this AN/I?) P-123 (talk) 17:10, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

• Seconded Dougweller's three month topic ban for both, running concurrently with a 3 month Iban. This can be done through the auspices of the SCW-ISIL general sanctions. However, as I proposed before, I think that if there are any RfC or RMs they should be allowed to express an opinion with a brief explanation to support that opinion. To address User:GregKaye's concerns. Much of what you currently see as irredeemable flaws in the behaviour of P-123 will either become apparent if similar behaviour is exhibited against another editor, or prove to be transient. At the moment as there is considerable assumptions of bad faith between you both, and your accusations are not automatically substantiated when viewed with good faith. Having spent time going through your list of accusations, there is only one that I think is substantial enough on its own to warrant concern even when assuming good faith, and I will discuss that directly with user:P-123 on the talk page of P-123. -- PBS (talk) 16:27, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Expressing an opinion on an RFC or RM may certainly lead to confrontations. This is a Battleground. Let's hope that the behaviour of P-123 is transient but I see no guarantees. An indefinite block with the possibility to appeal has a better chance of getting a solid commitment and behavioural change and may lead to a final resolution of this chronic matter. The problem is that P-123's mood changes from one hour to another. GregKaye is more composed with transient outbursts. 194.169.217.242 (talk) 16:43, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

This chronic matter has subsisted for one month only. If you are going to make personal judgments, I suggest you look at my Talk page when talking to other editors and how I edit on the ISIS Talk page. Your judgment is made in a vacuum. I have wanted to show Gregkaye AGF, but it has been very hard when seeing what I regard as misrepresentations in this AN/I. from him. That comment rings a bell, btw. P-123 (talk) 17:22, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

P-123 I don't consider though that the admins here are not looking to take things personally and nor have I. I have taken what I have now interpreted to be your public slurs on the article talk page and regard that I have fairly but strongly raised these with you privately on your personal talk page. I honestly do not care of the judgement here if there is a chance that you will take this on board. I have chosen to do broach things on a personal basis and it has blown up in my face. I wish I had never bothered. Days of my life have recently been wasted pursuing this thing on multiple threads barely substantiated threads and I am resigned to whatever result may come about. At that stage quite frankly I was prepared to do whatever I thought it would take to gain resolution and get you off my back. Contrary to what PBS says I really hope, should you encounter other editors that take stands on issues such as unsubstantiated accusations and slurs, that similar behaviour to this will not be exhibited elsewhere, otherwise, from my point of view, this whole thing will have been an utter waste of time.

My planned suggestion now seems moot. I was going to suggest a form of IBAN suspended sentence might be in order in which any admin that could by any means be bothered might be given the auspices to enact judgement. In this condition a two way IBAN might be authorised to be imposed by a single admin at the raising of a valid contention by either editor at any later date. We are in a situation where you have habitually deleted my content from your talk page and in which I have made it clear that I don't want unnecessary contact from you on mine. Again all this now seems moot.

There are many ways in which resolution could have been sought. We may now get one that neither of us would have wanted. GregKaye 19:29, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

The comments here from many admin/editors on possible ways forward are based very much on judgments of the two parties as persons. It seems that this is a moral court of law as much as anything, which appalls me somewhat; you seem to think so as well from those last comments. I doubt that the two-way IBAN I was thinking of requesting before this as you know would have led to the bad result which looks likely here. You have indeed broached troubles privately on our usertalk pages, as you have done regularly with other editors in the past, that is your way, but you really cannot expect results if it is accompanied by slurs on the editor's bona fides and integrity which has been my experience, I'm afraid. P-123 (talk) 20:48, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Reasons for a topic ban on GregKaye

Dougweller has proposed a topic ban and PBS has seconded. I would appreciate an understanding of any argument that supports this. GregKaye 20:03, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

• Second a three, even more, months ban right away. There is too much hostility, slurs, disruption and rehashing of the same under the auspices of self defense and blaming everyone else but themselves. The disruption is clear to any uninvolved person but not to them. The thing is that they are still not getting it, and wondering why everyone is out to get them, instead of looking inside and re-reading the venom they spew at each other and at any other Wikipedian that expresses their opinion in this AN/I. This is not the norm. One editor keeps posting to the other editor's talk page even after he made it clear that he did not want any contact. This AN/I has become a hostility chat forum with no end in sight. A quick ban is now overdue. 208.123.223.161 (talk) 20:14, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

• I am acutely aware of the disruption this is causing, but if that is what it takes to settle this long-running dispute, so be it. I could have easily kept my mouth shut and shortened this, but any "defendant" at AN/I is entitled to represent themselves and matters would have been shortened if Gregkaye had not kept coming back on any comment I have made. I myself would have thought the first part of this AN/I would have sufficed as evidence. We both wish to thrash these charges out and have them judged properly by uninvolved admin/editors, but so far concentration has been on personalities, which I think is disastrous. P-123 (talk) 22:01, 1 January 2015 (UTC) [Comment added later]

Is that right? Who decided "if that (meaning disruption to the project, by your own admission) is what it takes to settle this long-running dispute, so be it"? You, P-123? You're not helping you case at all. No, it's not "so be it". The personality of an editor is the single most important part in Wikipedia's editing environment, and, more than anything else, it is the deciding factor as to whether an editor should be allowed or denied the privilege to edit on Wikipedia or not. 208.123.223.161 (talk) 23:02, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

208.123.223.161 Those arguments might be reasons supportive of an interaction ban. There has been no problem with regard to my conduct on the article talk page since my October inconclusive AN/I up until the point of the recent threads The group's original aim and Ham fisted lead. I did not initiate any contention here. GregKaye 20:46, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

I concur with this statement: "The problem is that P-123's mood changes from one hour to another. GregKaye is more composed with transient outbursts. 194.169.217.242" I support a 3 month ISIL topic ban for P-123 only, and an IBAN for both editors. Gregkaye has not handled this dispute very well but he sticks much closer to policy and has been more rational. Especially he does not encourage other editors to disrupt the article.Legacypac (talk) 20:50, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Come to think of it, this is a much better resolution, but, unfortunately, I see no end in sight for this AN/I. 208.123.223.161 (talk) 21:01, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Diversion off section topic

Legacypac your "Especially he does not encourage other editors to disrupt the article" and the implication there is your judgment. You are very much parti pris and have been supporting Gregkaye on Talk pages ever since the AN/I began. I would remind you that there not been any judgment on the canvassing/campaigning charge yet. I have suspected for some time, as I said earlier in this AN/I, that you and Gregkaye would like to see me off the ISIS page, as a troublemaker who disagrees too much with both your views on how the page should be edited. [Redacted] By the way, I am not suggesting that in this AN/I Gregkaye is doing anything more than trying to have an editor reprimanded for editorial behaviour he believes infringes WP guidance and policy, but there has been no judgment on this yet (and with my cynical hat on I am wondering if there will be now). P-123 (talk) 21:41, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

I strongly disagree with this attack. I've actually read ALL the back and forth, and I've gone to great lengths to defuse this situation, including proposing a solution above that would allow P-123 to continue to edit ISIL. Furthermore I'm posting as myself, not hiding behind an IP, so it is very bad form to attack my editing history with generalizations. Legacypac (talk) 21:59, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Legacypac It was wrong of me to go as far as I did, I am sorry. I feel embattled and supported by no-one and it is hard to keep a cool head. I have redacted my comments. You have indeed tried to defuse the situation, more than once, and I appreciate your efforts. I believe you when you say you have read all the back and forth, but if you don't mind me saying so, it is still only your judgment at the end of the day. I cannot understand why so many are apparently hiding behind IPs. P-123 (talk) 22:17, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

This is exactly what makes P-123 a liability. This is what I meant when I said "they are still not getting it, and wondering why everyone is out to get them, instead of looking inside and re-reading the venom they spew at each other and at any other Wikipedian that expresses their opinion in this AN/I". They don't know when to quit. Legacypac expressed a good testimony in good faith that did not merit confrontation, blame and personal attacks. I also have noted that Legacypac knows the two personalities a lot more than us uninvolved admins and editors and offered a good resolution to get this AN/I done and over with but someone keeps coming back like a bad penny for more and more confrontations with anyone that has a different opinion. My advice to P-123 is take a break already. 208.123.223.161 (talk) 22:18, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks IP 161. I suspect the use of IPs is to avoid attacks like the one just made on me. Perhaps I should switch to using an IP too, but that would reduce the relevance and credibility of my views. Legacypac (talk) 22:31, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes, this is one of the reasons that many editors choose to edit with their IPs. Mine is static. Nothing wrong with that on Wikipedia. There is no reduction in relevance or credibility. AN/I is a very high visibility page that thousands of admins and editors read and when an AN/I goes on forever, some editors start to get involved. No one wants to see this AN/I closed in the 22nd Century. The views that were expressed were based on what everyone could see and assess individually. It is becoming obvious that many admins and editors that thankfully got involved have reached the same conclusion. 208.123.223.161 (talk) 22:49, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

May I point out that your joint decision is not based on the grounds on which this AN/I was actually brought? Is that of so little consequence? I have not read anything from uninvolved admin/editors on whether the charges can be upheld. PBS is the only one who has hinted at a decision on this. I was shocked when an earlier uninvolved (?)admin said, "... if one or more editors disagrees, and if we conclude that we might have to sanction just one party then somebody will have to read through all that stuff and weigh the claims." I innocently thought that "reading all that stuff" was par for the course at AN/I. It seems I am very naïve about Wikipedia's disciplinary proceedings! I have only been here since February and there is clearly a lot to learn still. (Although I remember now that at Gregkaye's AN/I, I had the clear impression that some of the outside commenters had not looked at the case properly or grasped what it was actually about. That is just for the record, btw, and is not meant as criticism of the outside admins/editors involved in this AN/I.) P-123 (talk) 23:16, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

P-123, my advice to you is to stop Wikilawyering. 208.123.223.161 (talk) 23:40, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

• Not wikilawyering, genuinely puzzled. Clearly making the mistake of assuming Wikipedia justice is like justice in real life! P-123 (talk) 00:11, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

My summary below is based on my read of quite wide input by many editors, who weighed the evidence presented and the continued conduct in this thread and elsewhere. I did not mean to suggest anyone else's credibility was diminished by logging out, I was only referring to my choice to stay logged in because I will wear anything I say here. Legacypac (talk) 23:44, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Please close

My review of all this sees:

1. Universal agreement on a two way IBAN between Gregkeye and P-123 (including they have both expressed support for one)
2. Universal agreement on a 90 day ISIL topic ban for P-123 (including P-123 saying various times and places, including on the ISIL talk page, he was going to stop editing on the topic.)
3. Some support but not consensus for a ISIL topic ban on Gregkeye (I suggest this discussion is a pretty good warning, and can be considered if future problems arise).

Many editors have commented. Plenty of time has elapsed (6 days) and way too much discussion has occurred by the two involved editors. Can an admin close this off please. Legacypac (talk) 22:15, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

• Seconded. 208.123.223.161 (talk) 22:23, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Copyvio reverts being called edit warring

A normally gf editor has inserted text from this source at Uterine cancer (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). I reverted, the editor took exception with the way I did it, reintroducing close paraphrasing of the copyrighted text and now accuses me of edit warring. Can an admin please intervene before this gets any uglier? LeadSongDog come howl! 17:34, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Hello. Not sure why the editor "LeadSongDog" is having a problem with a good-faith and arguably good and needed addition and elaboration as to the "causes or risks" of Uterine cancer, since the article was lacking it completely. And why, frankly, he's violating WP policy of "modify, not remove", as I conceded that at first the addition was too "word-for-word", but then I CHANGED IT CONSIDERABLY, trimmed it big time, and re-worded it. He is of the (wrong) opinion that the addition is "not useful" but never explained just how. The article totally lacked a "causes or risks" information, so it's arguably warranted and useful and needed. Here below is what I wrote to the editor on his Talk page:

Hello. I received and read your comment on my page, and I appreciate your concern, but I was a bit surprised, as the content was not 100% word-for-word. Too much of it was admittedly though. Sorry about that. But some of it was "in my own words". But I think it was not really necessary for you to totally remove the addition, instead of (per WP recommendation) MODIFYING it maybe, or re-wording it somewhat. The content was good and arguably necessary, as the article was totally lacking as to "causes" or "risk factors". I restored the section, but considerably modified and trimmed it correclty now. Which, to be frank, is what you should have done. Instead of just whole-sale deleting. WP recommendation is to modify instead of completely removing, if there is a problem somewhere. Which I do admit there was. But anyway, I fixed it. It's NOT verbatim stuff anymore, but very shortened, re-worded, and paraphrased, and very brief now. Regards...Gabby Merger (talk) 05:04, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

then after he did a wholesale removal again, even after my big trimming and modifying to conform more so to WP policy, and avoid "copy vio", he I wrote to him again this:

Sorry, but you're reverted. I disagree with your assessment (and frankly with your disrespect). It's more than acceptable, and you're being uptight now. You had a point before, but if you find the modification still bad, then you're being a bit over-scrupulous and unreasonable, and I don't have time or patience to wrangle and debate the matter. You don't own the article, so stop acting like you do. Saying nonsense like "not very useful content". How is that? You didn't specifically explain just how it's "not useful. Causes and risks, which were TOTALLY lacking in that article, is "not useful"? Don't continue edit-warring, because I'll revert you again. You're going totally against WP policy now. The conversation is ended. Regards.

The re-worded and trimmed addition I put in the article is:

Causes

Causes for uterine cancer are not clearly known as yet, but it's been concluded that there are certain risk factors, such as hormone imbalance, and interaction with estrogen. Increased growth can result in cancer.[1]

That simply is NOT verbatim or "copy vio"...unless I'm missing something somewhere.

He's making a big fuss and deal over something that is not applicable. I admitted that he had a (bit of a) point initially, even though he still should not have totally removed the section addition, but per WP recommendation modify it. But he's going way overboard now, and violating WP policy of "No Own", and modify not remove. The thing is NOT "copy vio" anymore, yet for some reason he's insisting weirdly that it is (when it's not necessary or really applicable). And also saying "not useful content", when that's simply not true. The article (as I said) said NOTHING aobut "causes or risks". It (arguably) kinda needed it. He never explained how such points and conent and addition was "not useful". So yeah, at this point it has become an "edit-warring" situation (by him). He had (barely) a point before, I conceded, but not afterwards. When you carefully check things out. Regards. Gabby Merger (talk) 22:32, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

I have no idea where the wp:OWN accusation comes from. My only issue or interest with that article is the copyvio. When the copyrighted text is reintroduced and then edited, it becomes a derivative work, violating the original copyright. We can't permit that, which is why it's right in the [125]. If there's a policy statement somewhere to "modify not remove" that erroneous wording needs to be fixed. LeadSongDog come howl! 15:39, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

• For 2 sentences, it still seemed a little closely paraphrased, and in trimming it for copyright it lost a fair amount of its context. I've re-written it in a manner that will hopefully satisfy all parties. Crow^Caw 20:43, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

• Thank you, user:Crow. :) It isn't edit warring to address in good faith concerns about copyright, and in this case those concerns were justifiable. I appreciate your effort to rewrite this content, Gabby Merger, and have left a note at your talk page that I hope you will find helpful. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 12:39, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, that rewrite seems to address the problem of sufficient difference, but is it not still a derivative work by dint of leaving the intervening version in the edit history? We need clarity on this principle.LeadSongDog come howl! 16:44, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Legal threat by User:Worldchampion2014

See User talk:Wtmitchell#Please Delete the Page. This concerns the Samira Samii article. I have blocked Worldchampion2014 indefinitely pending resolution here. I am an admin but, as I have no background in handling legal threats, I am reporting this here for handling by others more experienced with this than I. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 12:10, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

The warning I put on their talk page appears to have made them understand about legal threats on Wikipedia because they removed their message from Wtmitchell's talk page (The legal threat can be seen here.) MadGuy7023 (talk) 12:19, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Is there anything in the article which could violate BLP rules? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:20, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Not in the now-current version as far as I can see. I'm no expert on anything related to the article or the topic; my involvement here grows out of this action from WP:Huggle. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 12:26, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

I pruned it back further and added another reference from Deutsche Welle. There is definitely a viable claim to notability in the article and the information is quite innocuous. However, it looks as if the subject (or her representative) does not wish to have an article for whatever reason. Hence the page blanking, and this attempt at nominating for speedy deletion. I left a note on User talk:Worldchampion2014 pointing them to Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Help. In my view, such messages should always be left in situations like this. Voceditenore (talk) 13:36, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Sigh. No good deed goes unpunished. The editor appears to be evading their block by editing as an IP to add piles of puffery in broken English. I've cleaned it up and left a note re these various no-no's on their talk page. Don't know how much effect it will have... Voceditenore (talk) 11:04, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Have you tried asking for semi-protection? That should fend off the gnats. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:03, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestion. The IP (91.39.92.182) has now repeated their shenanigans after being reverted by a second editor. I've requested temporary semi-protection. We'll see what happens. Voceditenore (talk) 18:08, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Edit Warring IP

An ip is adding non notable content to the Sharon Lee page. This IP has already violated 3RR

Proof of the edit warring Weegeerunner (talk) 18:09, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

This is a static school IP that has previously several times been blocked for a year at a time for persistent vandalism, once for two years. The current individual is editing poorly but not quite vandalizing, so I've only given them a 60-hour block for edit warring. Favonian had fortunately warned them. Thank you for reporting, Weegeerunner. For another time, note that there's a dedicated noticeboard for 3RR violations: WP:AN3. Bishonen | talk 19:54, 9 January 2015 (UTC).

IP making legal threats in Rafael Pérez (police officer), possible COI

2605:E000:4EC9:6500:98C3:EA3:820F:1715 (talk · contribs) was removing information from Rafael Pérez (police officer) under the summary 'lies' [126][127][128][129]. I reverted the removal, and warned him. Then the IP proceeded to remove further information under the edit summary of My valid reason for deleting this is that you have posted lies about my father and I did not consent to having my name up on wikipedia. Take this down or I will take legal action.[130]

I would like an admin to take a look at this situation. -- Orduin ^⋠T⋡ 21:40, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

It is probably worth pointing out that significant parts the article appear to be entirely unsourced, and that regardless of the actions of the anon IP, they need to be removed per WP:BLP policy. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:47, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

I've removed unsourced material from the 'private life' section, per WP:BLP - I've not looked at the remainder of the content. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:51, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Good point, however, most of the content that was removed was cited. (I will add the BLP citations needed tag.) -- Orduin ^⋠T⋡ 21:53, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

User:Snappy removing cited content

At Statues in Dublin, User:Snappy has been repeatedly deleting cited content. Their rationale is that the content is "silly." I have tried discussing the issue with them on the talk page, to no avail. Even though I've added an additional ten references to the page, they continue to unilaterally remove significant amounts of content from the page. 79.97.226.247 (talk) 23:54, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

I believe this article is under 1RR (per Ireland related topic), so I hope you both are respecting WP:BRD. -- GoodDay (talk) 23:57, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Repeated attacks on the article Buxton Community School

Resolved

The article Buxton Community School has been under attack by vandals all day.[131] As soon as one username gets blocked, another one surfaces. The first was User:TopQualityBanter, now blocked, together with User:TopQualityNotch, also now blocked. Then along came User:TheGmiester who not only vandalized that article but created two fake new mirror articles, Buxton Community SchooI (with a capital "eye" in school instead of a lowercase "ell"), now deleted, and Banter Community School, still here but tagged for G3. TheGmiester has also been blocked. Now comes User:George 4457856, repeatedly vandalising the article[132] [133], warned but not yet blocked. Each user block was by a different administrator, so no one has looked at the big picture. Considering the persistence of this vandal or vandals, I think semi-protection of the article might be warranted, in addition to blocking the vandals. (I haven't bothered notifying the various vandals about this ANI report; hope that's OK.) --MelanieN (talk) 23:56, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected by HJ Mitchell and blocks handed out. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 00:24, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Yep, and I salted the two fake articles. I think we're done here. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 00:28, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Boko Haram Proposed Topic Ban

Related 3RR reports: [134], [135] and others.

A single editor is guarding the Boko Haram article like a junkyard dog, making it impossible for any other editor to make meaningful contributions. Since all efforts to reason are met with insults, WP:IDONTHEARTHAT and more edit warring, the only solution I can see it a community imposed topic ban for Boko Haram and all related topics.

Examples:

1. [136] wholesale revert of changes by User:Koyos
2. [137] remove POV and Factual tags added by User:Lipsquid and adjusted by User:Charles Essie
3. [138] remove POV and Factual tags added by User:Legacypac
4. [139] wholesale revert on changes to Names section by User:Legacypac
5. [140] makes large edit with summary "(many unexplained changes to text)"
6. [141] editwarring over Background section with same revert about 9 times. Results in 4 trips to 3RR board and a comment by User:EdJohnston that he believes Signedzzz will never stop.
7. [142] removed word "men" from types of people (men, women and children) kidnapped in the lead and good source added by User:105.184.160.62
8. [143] [144] [[145]]] reverted additions of ISIL under allies by User:Jurryaany, an IP, and User:Jackninja5. first time it is ref'd, second time he says it needs a ref, third time in breach of his ISIL topic ban, .
9. [146] even undoes minor spelling variation by User:LightandDark2000
10. [147] good addition by User:MelvinToast
11. [148] took out timeline section, left article with only a link under see also
12. [149] reverted the addition of "nearly" by User:Shii in front of an approximation of refugees.

And if you go back further there are more examples.

User contribution tool found an astonishing 2443 edits by User:Signedzzz on Boko Haram (54.75% of the total edits made to the page).

Just as I am finishing this report I see the post below on 3RR, which may solve the problem. However, since I did all the work to put the report together I'm putting this up anyway to call editors attention to the problem with the Boko Haram article and as a back-up of information to support a topic ban imposed by the community or an Admin.Legacypac (talk) 04:53, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

(Quoted here) Blocked – Signedzzz is blocked four days for long-term edit warring at Boko Haram, as well as a 3RR violation on 8 January. The closure of this complaint was delayed due to discussions which took place both here and in a report above. It appeared for a while that Signedzzz was agreeing to take a break from the article, but he made this controversial edit on 10 January which removes article tags, showing that he has not stopped editing at Boko Haram. This block can be lifted if Signedzzz will accept a topic ban from Islamic extremism and Boko Haram, which will apply everywhere on Wikipedia on articles, talk pages and noticeboards. Signedzzz is already banned from editing on WP:GS/SCW per an earlier complaint. EdJohnston (talk) 03:25, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Raheja Developers

I'm writing here because there are still ongoing disputes with the page for Raheja Developers. This was previously brought to ANI because of edits made to the article for Navin Raheja as well as the company page, but didn't really get any attention from anyone that wasn't already involved with the whole scenario.

Long story short, back in November User:Bhaskargupta269 came on to BLP/N to say that someone was adding defamatory content to the article for Navin Raheja. ([150]) I went to the article and saw where the user (User:Leoaugust) had been adding things that came across as having a specific viewpoint, but I also saw where the article was incredibly promotional. ([151]) After doing some cleaning and some small discussion on the article's talk page with User:Sitush I figured that Raheja didn't have any true coverage outside of the company itself. The controversies are about the company but once you took that away you have some appointments that aren't really notable per Wikipedia's guidelines and some minor coverage of him- nothing that would really show he merits his own article. ([152])

I posted on ANI about my concerns with COI in either direction (positive and negative) and nobody responded in general other than Leoaugust, who stated that any negative bias on his part was unintentional and that he'd wanted to include the stuff about the legal issues because it was in the media and he wanted the page to encompass everything about the company. During this time I was also talking to Bhaskargupta269 on my talk page where I flat out asked him if he was a paid editor, which he said he wasn't. User:Yunshui had been trying to talk to Bhaskargupta269 on his talk page and explain why the edits were seen as promotional, which at first Bhaskargupta269 seemed to understand.

However there have still been promotional edits and edit warring on the article. Recently there have been repeated attempts to remove anything negative about the company from the article under various claims like a writer for Forbes India being specifically against the company, the page being used to advertise against the company, and so on. This has been done by a series of editors that have made a large amount of edits to Raheja related articles and various promotional type articles and after one of the editors (User:Sanjeev.08) scrubbed the article of any negative coverage, Bhaskargupta269 came back on and re-added various promotional content that had been in the article earlier on. ([153]) I also note that there have been similar articles made for another of the Rahejas, Nayan Raheja.

I've opened up a SPI to see if this is a case of meatpuppetry or sockpuppetry, but at the very least this looks like it's a case of someone hiring paid editors to make articles for them and scrub articles of any negative coverage. This post on Gilliam's talk page by User:Amrishtyagi makes me even more concerned that this is a case of organized paid editing and if this is so, then I'm concerned that it's a case of paid editors possibly trying to hide that they are paid editors or at least hide their conflict of interest.

I know that this may not necessarily be the right place for this since there is an SPI open, but this is getting slightly too large to be done just at SPI (and isn't really a BLP/N issue alone) and that there seem to be more people coming out of the woodwork just makes me want to have some other admins and editors keep their eye on the page. One of the major complaints from the people trying to remove the negative content seems to be that the information is defamatory, negative, or is spam. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 09:27, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

• I want to say something... leoaugust is accusing me in SPI discussion for writing advertising content for this article. But now I also found one thing. leoaugust have posted all the content/facts/incidents/controversies that have been posted in Qubrex.com website. Everyone can check the website. It seems like that it has been created to post negative against this company. So is leoaugust being paid by qubrex to write only negative? If so then i request here to take action against this page because according to the discussion till now, everyone is posting intentionally here.(as you all are thinking that i am posting positive for the company)Sanjeev.08 (talk) 08:15, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

• I fail to understand the logic of (User:Sanjeev.08) charges against my editing. Qubrex.com has on its website mentioned about the Black Money sting operation on Raheja Developers (RDL), and the filing of legal cases against RDL by 43 of buyers in Raheja Atharva project, amongst many other things. So? Qubrex reported lots of news, and I reported some news, and just because some of the news we reported is same, I am supposed to be getting paid by Qubrex? The allegation makes no sense. And by the way, Qubrex is a well respected name, and they were deeply involved in Indian Real Estate's landmark case in which DLF (the biggest builder in India) was penalized 6.3 billion Indian rupees by the Competition Commission of India. And for the record, I have never removed anything positive or laudatory that you or anyone has put into the Raheja Developers page; I have just added what I think is very very important news about the company which should be part of a fair profile of it anywhere. I had disclosed earlier, when a particular slant in my writing was pointed out, that in the real world I am an real estate expert with over 9 years of experience in India, and my aim is to improve wikipages from being stubs to something substantive. I want the wikipages to reflect the Indian real market and its players more accurately, rather being one side and mis-leading to the readers. Please (User:Sanjeev.08) stop worrying about the positive/negative and report the important news about Raheja Developers as it comes. Leoaugust (talk) 20:47, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: The Raheja Developers article is clearly beset by, possibly opposing, set of SPAs and COI/paid-editors, eg see related SPI, and the prod-reason here. Can some admins/CUs:
  • semi-protect the page,
  • block the confirmed socks, and also the latest SPAs Tunish123 (talk · contribs), Jojaf2002 (talk · contribs) etc as ducks (or run a CU if thought necessary)

Pinging @Yunshui:, who ran the last CU and may be familiar with the issue. Abecedare (talk) 21:15, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

I've added some further results to the SPI; there are several distinct groups active here, though my suspicion - based on their editing, not on the CU results - is that there is some degree of collusion between them. I think there is a good case for semi-protecting the page and will do so now; I'll also block the confirmed socks. Yunshui ^雲_水 08:10, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks Yunshui.

Also noting for future reference that some other editors on the page, such as Sandeepvishnoi (talk · contribs), have likely COI with the article subject. No immediate action needed, but if they resume editing, they should be made aware of wikipedia's policies in the area. Cheers. Abecedare (talk) 18:30, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

• If I could give you guys a big sloppy kiss right now, I would. Thanks for all of this! I took a small break to catch up on sleep and come back to find this- (hugs) Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 05:37, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

References

User:TheCampaign

• TheCampaign (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

This user created Allen L. Ellison, a highly promotional "article" that was copied and pasted from the candidate's campaign biography. In contesting my deletion, the user has shown quite convincingly he is not here to build the encyclopedia, username notwithstanding.

As I am now being accused of admin abuse, I would like someone else to wield the banhammer. MER-C 08:39, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

I don't see anything about this guy in Google except for campaign-like materials. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 08:54, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Cullen328 has given them some good advice and they've agreed not to post the article again for now so I'm not sure a NOTHERE block would achieve much. Sam Walton (talk) 09:34, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

I too have left TheCampaign a message. -- Hoary (talk) 05:41, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

User:Andcarr

User:Andcarr has restarted babysitting the David Ross (businessman) article again and is deleting any content that he has not added himself. He apears only to edit this article, yet he has accused me of adding PR to the article. Please can he be stopped, at least from editing this article? Bleaney (talk) 16:33, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Actually User:Saskia2309 also appears to be babysitting this article, it may be better to look at protection for the article - Bleaney (talk) 16:51, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

I'd say there a definite case of ownership going on. I just tried to remove a self-published blog from the BLP, and I got reverted. Annoyingly, there's also an accusation of COI in the edit summary when I was merely trying to follow policy, as I linked in my own summary. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 17:52, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

And Saska2309 made a similar accusation against Bleaney in this personal attack. It seems we've got a pair of POV-pushers owning an article on a person they don't like. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 18:10, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

He is also using the Daily Mail as a blp source now [154] Avono (talk) 18:18, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Andcarr has reverted the article at least four times today. I gave him a warning for edit warring. If he keeps this up, we'll have to take it to WP:ANEW. I'm guessing that he's not going to let anyone else edit this article but Saskia2309. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 19:24, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Andcarr (talk · contribs) blocked for 24h by Nyttend. Going off the history and user talk comments, expect resumption of disruption in 24h + 1m. - Sitush (talk) 00:46, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

He has a confirmed block evasion (with this IP) extending his block to 48 hours. Also, with this edit User:Saskia2309 just inadvertently admitted to block evasion. -- Orduin ^⋠T⋡ 20:31, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Since both Andcarr and Saskia2309 (talk · contribs) have been linked to the same IP, they're either socking or one of the alleged links is incorrect, possibly due to meatpuppetry or possibly because I & Nyttend have actually got it wrong. That said, the behaviour of Saskia2309 over the last 24 hours, and of the 101.* IP, increasingly give me the feeling that these SPAs may be pushing the limits of what is acceptable behaviour. - Sitush (talk) 02:18, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

I thought it best to take no more action in the situation, both because I've found it confusing, and because further activity might be construable as WP:INVOLVED. Given Saskia's admission to socking (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=641471602, linked by Orduin), I think a block definitely appropriate, but I don't know how long (either for account or for IP address), and I'm not sure what other actions would be helpful. Any solid action from an uninvolved admin would be appreciated. I have, however, unblocked Andcarr, since his original 24-hour block would have expired by now if I hadn't lengthened it. Sitush, please note that I haven't "confirmed" it in a technical sense; the IP and Andcarr were making edits so similar that I linked them on behavioral grounds. Treating Andcarr and Saskia as socks of each other, based solely on my actions and statements, would be inappropriate; please decide on behavioral grounds or request checkuser. Nyttend (talk) 02:26, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

I didn't say you had confirmed it, Nyttend. That was Orduin, whom I was trying to correct. - Sitush (talk) 02:35, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

I was attempting to respond to "have been linked to the same IP"; I misunderstood you, thinking that you took it as some sort of technical confirmation that you could trust. Glad to see that you already understood correctly. Nyttend (talk) 02:45, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

This is getting silly now. See the warring over this stuff and also this section. I'm trying hard to sort out the content and am responding to queries/raising a few questions, but the Andcarr account is simply a SPA POV-pushing thing. - Sitush (talk) 21:12, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

And now this massive attack from Saskia2309. Andcarr has already acknowledged on their talk page that these two account users know each other. - Sitush (talk) 00:13, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

That was so nonsensical, Saskia2309 should be blocked for that. Bladesmulti (talk) 06:53, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

WHY was my previous account DELETED

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Why was my previous account "Chilli lover" deleted? I did not get any information or warning or guidance! Just gone! Why? Please explain to me! — Preceding unsigned comment added by NEW Chilli lover (talk • contribs) 05:47, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

@NEW Chilli lover: Accounts cannot be deleted, could i get a link to your old account please? Lor^Talk 06:22, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Could your old account be:

• User:ChileLOVER (no edits) or
• User:Chililover (no edits) or
• User:Chililover15 (no edits) or
• User:Chililoverboy (no edits) or
• User:Chillielover (no edits) or
• User:Chilli92lover (one edit in 2008) or
• User:Chili lover 435 (blocked yesterday by @Materialscientist: for block evasion by Vgleer)?

BMK (talk) 10:44, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

YES YES YES! SORRY! I forgot, my account was "Chili lover 435" not just "Chili lover". BUT still. Deleted is DELETED. Why this "Materialscientist" barges in like that?! Please educate me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by NEW Chilli lover (talk • contribs) 06:52, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Please see Special:Contributions/Chili_lover_435. This says that Materialscientist blocked Chili lover 435 "with an expiry time of indefinite (Block evasion: Vgleer)". I infer that you too are Vgleer and I've therefore blocked you as well. If you believe that this is unjust, log in as Vgleer and carefully follow the instructions at User talk:Vgleer. -- Hoary (talk) 07:14, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The Rambling Man forgets the IBAN once again

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Extended content

No sooner do I use the word iconic to describe a nomination at ITN does The Rambling Man quote me directly "iconic" but seems to do so tit for tat. Certainly an admin and sysop who's been blocked by Laser brain (talk · contribs) for previous violations of the IBAN can withdraw his comment or deal with a new block. I'd welcome an admin either notifying The Rambling Man of this comment or advising me I can do so myself in contravention of the IBAN. previous evidence for last block of TRM Well, once again, in violation of our iban, User:The Rambling Man has quoted (with quote marks!) and responded to me directly at ITN nominations: "For the fiftieth time". diffs re TRM's disruption Apparently the last ANI was entirely ignored, as were User:Newyorkbrad's warnings today to TRM to stop the personal comments: that you should stop sullying this page with gratuitous personal comments As a sidenote, the personal comments on this page have to cease and these edits and their edit summaries of TRM's: oh dear Jayron oh, what a surprise do what Brad says, he's Arbcom after all you're the pest which show a pattern of unnecessary incivility. Note also this comment by User:SemanticMantis on the Ref Desk talk page: I don't know what you do elsewhere on WP but when you seem only show up on the ref desk to disparage said desk. Let us note that on his user page, TRM first blanked it in response to this complaint, then restored it with the comment he'd be away for two days, during which he himself expects a block: "restore and add note regarding intermittent availability, should i be blocked in absentia" Meanwhile, on his talk page he dismissed (and deleted) notification of the ANI case and his fellow editors and admins with: "more hilarity, more circus games, i'll continue to make decent articles while the parade continues" And on Newyorkbrad's homepage (NYB has expressed his wish to remain impartial) TRM describes himself as "disagreeing" and me as "abusing": "It'd be rewarding to see how such esteemed members of the hierarchy treat content editors who just vocalise their disagreement, while completely ignoring others who directly abuse people." That is, he is just talking civil, while I am attacking him and admins are ignoring me? When NYB merely asks for civil discussion, TRM responds "if you didn't just wade in and act like a schoolmaster" This sounds like a confession and a retreat mixed with, "It's not me, it's Medeis and the admins." See "you're the pest" above. μηδείς (talk) 07:10, 21 November 2014 (UTC) I'm loathe to respond to these kangaroo proceedings, but given the plethora of false assumptions and incorrect assertions I see (yet again), and given the absolute stone cold intensity with which some users wish to see me "punished", I felt compelled, even today, my son's first birthday, to say a couple of things. I (as well as many many others) have become sick and tired of the self-centred approach, the "why always me?" claims, the incorrect assumptions being hurled around so often at ANI. Some users wish to have their cake and eat it, as evidenced in the multiple responses to the last time I was dragged here. I'm certain if Jayron or NYB have a real problem with me, they are more than capable of doing something about it themselves. Jayron and I frequently have robust discussion, no-one dies and everyone survives to the next time. NYB on the other hand appears from time to time to believe he can sweep into ITN and do exactly as he pleases (usually regarding posting poor quality articles on recently deceased Americans from the movie industry). Indeed, NYB's insistence on threatening to make illegitimate posts has been rejected by four, maybe five different admins in the past. When it comes to ITN, he's just an editor, nothing more. Regarding the policy issue, some users need to be continually reminded that claiming specific policies at ITN is actually factually incorrect. We have policies, guidelines, essays etc. There is a clear difference in the significance of each of these, it's worthwhile understanding that. Finally, I added the holiday notice to my page because, yes, I'm taking my son out for his first birthday and wanted people to know that I'd be unlikely to respond to the current pack of misrepresentations, leave alone any more incorrect claims which may be dug up throughout the day. I restored some of the content with something of an ironic edit summary. Sorry if some users didn't understand that, I must try harder to ensure our "global" audience gets it. Finally, unlike one of the bogus claims above, I have never named any user as being "abusing". If some users wish to assume it to be in reference to them, that is entirely their problem, and they should try hard to address their insecurities. It was, in fact, with reference to those editors who swear at others, who edit war with them etc. If a user believes they meet that profile, bingo. Have a good day all, I'm going to the big smoke for lunch with the little 'un. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:26, 21 November 2014 (UTC) Looking at the first accusation re the interaction ban violation (that this edit was a direct response to Medeis), it doesn't look to be the case. I read the response as being directed at Masem, and actually supporting what Medeis said. Number 57 13:47, 21 November 2014 (UTC) Of all the diffs above, two are allegedly violations of the IBAN. The rest are alleged incivility, to other editors than μηδείς, and pretty tame by the standards we see here. Am I right? Of the diffs regarding the IBAN, I'm struggling to see the violation in the first one - TRM and μηδείς are making similar points about the lack of policy, but I'm struggling to see it as TRM interacting with μηδείς. The second one might be construed as a violation, I guess - responding to NewYorkBrad who was responding to μηδείς. It's not exactly smoking gun material, though. I've a great deal of respect for both these editors, and a TBAN for both from ITN would be a great loss to ITN. But it seems that the IBAN hasn't helped cool things down between them. Any suggestions for other ways of cooling things down? GoldenRing (talk) 13:55, 21 November 2014 (UTC) There is no justification for a TBAN. First, there's no complaint against me, no diffs, and no reason to ban me, since I have not commented once on TRM, while he has on me, as well as reversions, etc. Second, TRM is perfectly capable of doing good work on ITN, all he needs to do is stop addressing me. Third, any such TBAN would be pointless, as we still both edit many overlapping pages. The solution is clear and simple: enforce the IBAN that's already in place. μηδείς (talk) 19:39, 22 November 2014 (UTC) I'm not seriously suggesting a TBAN, just thinking out loud about how to cool the situation down. It needs cooling down, on both sides. This is the second time this has ended up at ANI in recent times, both times because you've perceived a violation of the IBAN where other editors have said either the violation is not clear or that you have to work very hard to read it as a violation. And this report has a long list of diffs completely unrelated to you or the IBAN tacked on. It reads a lot like you're on the lookout, just waiting for the slip up that you can bring to ANI and get him blocked/banned. On the other hand, TRM'S response is not exactly conciliatory. Both of you remain unprepared to work in a collaborative, collegial way, then. Ideally, tips both take a long, hard look at yourselves (not each other), let the past go and get on with building an encyclopedia which, so long as you don't cross paths, you both do well. Since that seems unlikely to happen, sadly, I'm trying to think about other ways of making the situation less explosive and, largely, coming up empty-handed. GoldenRing (talk) 09:54, 23 November 2014 (UTC) Since I was summoned, I might as well make some brief comments. It would be nice if TRM tried to influence discussions by the strength of his arguments, and could also quietly let other people have opinions which differ from him. It's only the ad hominem diversions that create a problem, that and his deliberate attempts to poison the well against people who don't hold the identical opinion he does. Otherwise, I don't really care what happens. TRM makes himself more and more irrelevant the more he behaves in uncooperative ways. It would be nice if he could become a more effective person who was able to actually create the important changes he wants to; but his treatment of others prevents him from being successful in ways that would benefit the encyclopedia. --Jayron32 14:16, 21 November 2014 (UTC) ^I'll support this. I only know TRM from the ref desks, and it seems he could be a big help there, but he doesn't choose to. That's fine, we spend time where we want. Whatever his abilities and skills are, it seems that TRM has managed to step on a few toes. Then again so has Medeis. If I could hand out sentencing I would give TRM and Medeis both a trouting, remind them both to respect the IBAN, and hope that they learn that a more cooperative attitude would make both of their efforts more productive. SemanticMantis (talk) 15:38, 21 November 2014 (UTC) You people created your own monster. The Rambling Man, a productive editor and an admin, is perfectly justified in expecting the Rule of Corbett (i.e. productivity means you can be as rude as you like) to apply to him as well, and I can't say I blame him. The only difference is he doesn't appear to have the squads of acolytes and fawning admins ready to fall on their swords in his defense. What a joke! --Drmargi (talk) 19:13, 21 November 2014 (UTC) No, the rule defines a "valuable contributor" as one with acolytes. Hawkeye7 (talk) 19:30, 21 November 2014 (UTC) I won't be able to comment at length or research the diffs for about 12 hrs from now, but the issue here really is violations of the iban by TRM. The incivility is just part of the pattern. There have been previous iban violations by TRM, and a previous ANI that documented them in October. I'll search the archives tonight. The "for the fiftieth time" and quotation of the word policy in the edit above was directed at me. He quoted me, and my occassional use of the word policy has been a bugaboo of his apparently for over a year now, hence his "for the fiftieth time" statement. I'll look for these comments tonight, can someone tell me how to search for the use of the word policy by TRM on the ITN nomination page only? I find searching the history of that page very difficult. Bottom line, TRM has repeatedly been warned not to interact with me and continued to do so, I have made no comments regarding him. He should be treated like any other editor would who violated an IBAN. μηδείς (talk) 19:34, 22 November 2014 (UTC) μηδείς (talk) 01:32, 2 January 2015 (UTC) He used the same word as you? How about we don't notify him, and we just close this? NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 02:44, 2 January 2015 (UTC) Take a look at the second diff. He didn't just coincidentally use the word "iconic", he put scare quotes around "iconic", indicating he was quoting (and disparaging) what someone else wrote. Medeis' use of "iconic" in his own statement is right above TRM's comment. It's hard not to see this as a -- admittedly minor -- violation of the IBAN. Whether it's block-worthy I'll let an admin decide -- that's why they get the big bucks. BMK (talk) 03:00, 2 January 2015 (UTC) I failed to note that Medeis' comment was to oppose TRM's ITN nomination. Like Laser Brain below, I would consider that a violation of the IBAN as well, which makes TRM's violation (which, despite the comments below, it quite clearly is -- the use of "iconic" was a choice and not an accident, and the scare quotes make his POV about the Medeis comment obvious, so I'm not sure why that is not being seen by other commenters) a response to Medeis' violation. So if anyone is considering any kind of sanction here, Medeis would seem to be the party who should be sanctioned. The IBAN requires him to stay away from TRM, including his nominations etc. BMK (talk) 04:11, 2 January 2015 (UTC) I've had multiple disputes with The Rambling Man (some evidenced in the collapse box above, which I hadn't even realized until I entered the editing window), but this complaint strikes me as petty. Newyorkbrad (talk) 03:06, 2 January 2015 (UTC) I half expect Medeis to start pointing and saying, "he's looking at me!" This is beyond petty, and bordering on harassment by Medeis. The word at issue was iconic. It's hardly inappropriate for TRM to put it in quotes, given the context, and his statement was nothing close to disparaging. It's long past time for Medeis (and one or two other folks) to stop seeing IBAN violations in every edit Rambling Man makes, and start assuming a little good faith. I've seen third graders more able to ignore another's behavior. --Drmargi (talk) 03:26, 2 January 2015 (UTC) Who are these "one or two other folks"? If you mean Baseball Bugs (talk · contribs) and the host of other users like Snow Rise and Phoenixia1177 or Drmies, etc., who've chastised him please mention and notify them. μηδείς (talk) 03:50, 2 January 2015 (UTC) Let's eliminate the IBAN because it's causing more trouble than it could possibly be solving. Jehochman Talk 03:29, 2 January 2015 (UTC) Does this mean I am free to violate the IBAN as I see fit? Shall I take the "leave the cesspool to the shitheads" comment currently on TRM's talk page as read? When someone directly quotes me with quote marks around a word no one else has used but me, I take that a explicit violation of the IBAN. Given the last time he was blocked he promised to quit the project, threw a fit on his talk page, and I personally asked that he be unblocked I take comments like Drmargis' as uniformed and insulting. Either there is an IBAN or there isn't. PS, has anyone notified TRM? And no, Jehochman, let's enforce the IBAN since only one party keeps breaking it, and you were the last to unblock TRM, so your recusing yourself would be appropriate. μηδείς (talk) 03:35, 2 January 2015 (UTC) This does not seem to be a clear violation. Even if this was a subtle jab at you which I don't think it is, then your reaction would be the exact sort of thing wanted. I recommend you ask this complaint be closed and move on. Chillum 03:48, 2 January 2015 (UTC) If anything, the only violation I've seen of late is Medeis's constant running to this noticeboard to stir up trouble. --Drmargi (talk) 03:49, 2 January 2015 (UTC) responding to a violation of the IBAN is explicitly allowed under the terms of the IBAN. μηδείς (talk) 03:54, 2 January 2015 (UTC) Just out of curiosity, Medeis, would you consider opposing TRM's ITN nomination a violation of your IBAN? Because I would. And that occurred before the needling you are here to complain about. I agree with Jehochman that the IBAN is pointless. --Laser brain (talk) 04:02, 2 January 2015 (UTC) No, we both comment on the same threads on ITN and at the Ref Desks and that fact was directly addressed in the three ANI's that were initiated to get the IBAN put in place. Had I said something like Nergaal when he opposed TRM's nom a few weeks ago because it was TRM's nom, then yes, that would be a violation, as would directly quoting him or trying to do so surreptitiously. But both TRM and I have agreed and disagreed on various nominations, and TRM has even thanked me several times since the IBAN via the thank function for my comments saying he should have been unblocked, and in support of his nominations. The only question here is the very obvious violation with a direct quote of my comment, using quote marks. Given I am explicitly and happily banned from responding, I have brought it here. I don't expect that to be ignored. I just want TRM to watch what he's doing and stop testing the limits as Drmies expressly forbade him to do. μηδείς (talk) 04:18, 2 January 2015 (UTC) What was reported is not a violation IBAN, this is however. Given the pettiness of the report I'm considering blocking Medeis. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 04:22, 2 January 2015 (UTC) Would it be feasible to keep the iBan, but prohibit Medeis from reporting violations? Mellowed Fillmore (talk) 06:33, 2 January 2015 (UTC) Prohibiting an editor from openly reporting an alleged violation of an interaction ban would tend to encourage behind-the-scenes or off-wiki discussion instead. Is that really preferable to openness? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:02, 2 January 2015 (UTC) * Knock it off Medeis - you're obviously trying to get a Rambling Man blocked. How about we ban you from mentioning his name anywhere on this encyclopedia. I fully support such a ban KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 12:07, 2 January 2015 (UTC) struck out, Bugs is correct KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 11:50, 5 January 2015 (UTC) Uh, that's already there. It's called an Interaction Ban. And again, if you try to impose such a ban, you'll encourage behind-the-scenes behavior, which I can't see as an improvement. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:42, 2 January 2015 (UTC) Question - As a "compromise" between lifting the IBAN and preventing Medeis from reporting violations, how about making it one-way? TRM should no longer be prevented from interacting with Medeis (but warned that the IBAN may be reinstated), but Medeis is prohibited from interacting with TRM? Since TRM would no longer be prohibited from responding to Medeis, any further reports of ban violations would no longer fall under an exception, and the community would no longer have to deal with these petty reports. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:32, 2 January 2015 (UTC) Let's just get rid of the IBAN and tell both editors not to needle each other. If there's needling or worse, block shopping like this thread, whoever is causes disruption will get a series of escalating blocks. That should put an end to it. Jehochman Talk 14:40, 2 January 2015 (UTC) An IBAN is usually an imperfect solution, but it actually works a reasonable amount of the time. For it not to work, you need: Two editors of sufficient usefulness that we don't just want to apply the banhammer (or, the topicbanhammer) to one or both and say good riddance; One or both of whom have sufficient dislike of the other that they just can't seem to let go; One or both of whom have sufficient lack of concern for everyone else that they don't care that continuing this feud is a pain in the ass for everyone else; Both editors active in one or two areas (in this case, ITN and Ref Desk), where replying to other editors is an integral part of the process. I agree with Jehochman that the IBAN isn't working here, and is actually leading to an increase in annoyance for everyone. I disagree with many here that it's all Medeis' fault. I think it's partly her fault for being ultra-sensitive to perceived slights, some of them minor but real, others imagined; partly our fault for not making clear whether we want the IBAN to apply to talking about the other editor personally, or making comments that specifically disagree with the other's comments; partly TRM's fault for not being able to resist directly quoting remarks by someone with whom he has an IBAN; and partly the world's fault for being imperfect. I suspect that just repealing the IBAN and telling them both to stop picking at scabs won't work. But we should either: Try that first, see if it works, and do something below if it doesn't; Go the bureaucratic route and try tweaking the wording of the IBAN to make clear that specifically disagreeing with each other is allowed, or disallowed; Go with a more Solomonic cut-the-baby-in-half-to-piss-them-both-off approach, and ban Medeis from ITN and TRM from the Ref Desks; or Go with the blunt force approach, and ban them both from ITN and the Ref Desk. I suggest the first (even if I fear it has a low likelihood of success), but any of the four would work for me. --Floquenbeam (talk) 15:23, 2 January 2015 (UTC) Comment: I'd like to point out that today happens to be the one-year anniversary of when I first engaged this issue and tried to "tell both editors not to needle each other" (Jehochman) and "stop picking at scabs" (Floquenbeam). Anyone who doesn't see how thoroughly that approach hasn't worked out has got their head in the sand. The IBAN hasn't worked either, because here we are a year later. Jehochman tried opening an arena for a Festivus-style airing of grievances but that doesn't seem to have had any effect. Baseball Bugs seems to have been far more successful than Medeis or TRM in putting this in the curbside garbage can, but I fear nothing short of issuing topic bans for Medeis and TRM from ITN and Ref Desk is going to solve this issue. Or, we can continue to let it fester and we'll see everyone at ArbCom a few weeks or months from now. --Laser brain (talk) 15:44, 2 January 2015 (UTC) Ok. Let's try both editors banned from ITN and the reference desk and if they want to figure out a detente they can ask for the restrictions to be lifted. My arena page is open for them if they want to talk about it. Otherwise they can't interact in any way, broadly construed. It's just tiresome for the rest of us to have to endure this constant sniping. Jehochman Talk 16:35, 2 January 2015 (UTC) So, to be clear, we'll both be banned from ITN and the Ref desks indefinitely? Could someone please send me a note if this is the case as I'm one of the few admins left at ITN posting stories and I guess a ban from there would stop me doing that. Presumably it wouldn't stop me from updating the stories nominated? Thanks all. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:22, 2 January 2015 (UTC) Comment - I concur with the proposal to temporarily suspend their IBAN and see if that makes things better. (As for my own IBAN, keep it in place. It's not a problem for me.) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:42, 2 January 2015 (UTC) Comment I'm of similar mind to BMK here. I find it hard to believe TRM wasn't at least partially thinking of μηδείς's comment when replying, particularly given the history here of TRM pushing the boundary of the Iban. I do however agree with some others that considering how indirect it was, even with the history here, it was probably the sort of thing best left be, regardless of whether that's only going to mean more of the same. However it also seems to me that μηδείς opposing TRM's initiated ITN candidate was also problematic, even if it had had other supports so μηδείς may be partially replying to those comments (and the support/oppose is ultimately related to the candidate anyway). I'll admit I've never really understood how the iban was supposed to work on ITNC. My assumption a while ago based on comments they made was they would work it out, but it seems clear this hasn't happened. I therefore agree that going the bureaucratic route is worth considering. I have the nasty feeling we're still going to end up with discussions about boundaries just more complicated ones (or a 10000 word iban notice) but I'm not totally sure if there's any other good alternative. I do agree that it's not simply μηδείς who is at fault. μηδείς does seem oversensitive, but TRM does seem to like to push the boundaries (although μηδείς also has too). (Let's not forget in the early days of the iban TRM seemingly admitted to still watching the talk page of μηδείς over a month after the iban Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive260#.5BMoved from ANI.5D Possible interaction ban violation and I think, didn't seem particularly interested in removing it at the time User talk:The Rambling Man/Archive 45#Watchlist. Sadly that seemingly just set the tone, and since I rarely visit ITNC where the problem seems to occur, I'm guessing I haven't even seen half of it, and I'm thinking on both sides.) Nil Einne (talk) 19:46, 2 January 2015 (UTC) Yep, you're right, you're not clear on it at all. If by "pushing the boundaries" you mean "providing a cited response to counter an outlandish claim which happened to use a single common word" (I'm guessing I can still use "the" and "and" and "it" etc in responses) then you're right. Otherwise you're way off mark. Let's just ban us both from ITN and other similar locations, like the Ref Desk, or else let's just use some common sense and agree that this, amongst the other seven or eight complaints, is complete bollocks. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:41, 2 January 2015 (UTC) The history suggested 'happened' is highly misleading. It's hard to believe that you were not thinking of μηδείς claims when you were responding, just as with all the other times. BTW, whether or not μηδείς claims were outlandish is a moot point, you're forbidden from responding to them in any way on wikipedia per the iban although you're free to respond to other comments like the person who started that candidate. Nil Einne (talk) 12:12, 3 January 2015 (UTC) Fuck me, is this still rumbling on? May I suggest that you all just start the new year with a new slate and move the hell on! CassiantoTalk 19:56, 2 January 2015 (UTC) Indeed. Utter bollocks, but hey, what do you expect here these days? It's odd that around 3pm UTC we have such a barrage of outrage.... I wonder why.... The Rambling Man (talk) 21:41, 2 January 2015 (UTC) I propose that we close this thread with no action other than warning that any sort of frivolous reports about this IBAN in the future can result in a block and will result in a look into the reporters behavior. This is a silly waste of time. Chillum 20:02, 2 January 2015 (UTC) You really think it's better to encourage behind-the-scenes complaints instead of openness? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:10, 2 January 2015 (UTC) Did I say it's better to encourage behind-the-scenes complaints instead of openness? I am fairly sure I did not. Chillum 20:37, 2 January 2015 (UTC) I assume by the "behind-the-scenes complaints" you are referring to Medeis and not me? Please make this clear in your response. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:11, 2 January 2015 (UTC) I wouldn't know what either of you might do off-wiki. I'm merely saying that the proposal of some here, in trying to pre-empt every possible complaint, is not an appropriate solution - either for this case or any case at ANI. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:18, 2 January 2015 (UTC) It's really important you're clear here as both you and Medeis have been in regular email contact, along with various admins. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:35, 2 January 2015 (UTC) I can't speak for either you or Medeis. I myself have had very little contact with any wiki users off-wiki, for any reason. To put it another way, I am not in "regular" contact with any Wikipedia user. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:46, 2 January 2015 (UTC) Not that it matters, but you and Medeis have both had communications with admin(s) in relation to this. To deny it would be wholesale lying. On the other hand, I have never attempted to circumvent the "system" with any kind of off-wiki emailing. Neither of you can say that, and you know it. Medeis has admitted as such. So, please, clarify the point, that you and Medeis have already resorted to such off-wiki tactics. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:54, 2 January 2015 (UTC) I have asked this at least three times now, and no one has answered yet: Is the off-wiki approach better than being open about it here? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:17, 2 January 2015 (UTC) And I have suggested that, in this complaint, only you and Medeis are guilty of off-wiki attempts to manipulate Wikipedia. She has openly admitted it, you cannot deny it. Stop trying to cover your tracks. Admittedly you are just part of a game, and you have shown on numerous occasions that you wish for the best for Wikipedia, but sadly the double-teaming off-wiki campaign is all too clear and painfully obvious. I'm sorry that you ended up being associated with her, other editors have suggested that she should be banned, not just from the Ref desks or ITN, but from the site as a whole. I'm sure you don't want to end up in that situation. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:29, 2 January 2015 (UTC) I have no way to know whether you're telling the truth about your own off-wiki activities, if any. However, I interpret your comments to mean that you would prefer any complaints be made here, in the open, rather than behind the scenes. Yes? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:01, 2 January 2015 (UTC) All communication should be on wiki unlike those between you and Medeis and other admins, yes. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:06, 2 January 2015 (UTC) So any and all complaints should be brought here, and the notion of censoring such complaints, as promoted by some here, is non-operative. Sounds good. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:10, 2 January 2015 (UTC) I think you've said more than enough Bugs. Sorry! The Rambling Man (talk) 22:13, 2 January 2015 (UTC) Bugs I said frivolous complaints, not every possible complaint. There is a big difference. Chillum 20:39, 2 January 2015 (UTC) How is Medeis supposed to know ahead of time, how you're going to judge a given complaint? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:46, 2 January 2015 (UTC) She could base it on the other seven (or so) complaints that came to nothing. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:56, 2 January 2015 (UTC) Using the mighty power of competence to judge if the complaint has merit before making it. Chillum 21:33, 2 January 2015 (UTC) Trying to guess how you're going to interpret something would require ESP. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:01, 2 January 2015 (UTC) Or a level of common sense, competence or understanding of what has gone on before. Clearly that is not applicable here. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:09, 2 January 2015 (UTC) Or one might question the competence of those who claim the complaints are frivolous. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:12, 2 January 2015 (UTC) Or not admitting to your own off wiki collusions? Do us all a favour, do something else. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:26, 2 January 2015 (UTC) I am most pleased that you agree that off-wiki discussion should not be necessary. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:35, 2 January 2015 (UTC) Indeed, so if you and Medeis could stop doing it, that'd be great. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:26, 3 January 2015 (UTC) I am happy to have my competence reviewed by the community at any time. Chillum 22:15, 2 January 2015 (UTC) It's already on display here. >:) In any case, since TRM agrees that complaining off-wiki is an undesirable approach, then he has tacitly approved bringing all complaints here. Then you and your equally-competent pals can decide on a case-by-case basis whether the complaint is actionable or not. OR, you could fix this by abolishing or at least suspending their interaction ban. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:21, 2 January 2015 (UTC) Baseball Bugs is derailing the discussion in order to deflect from the problem highlighted by Callanecc above at 04:22, 2 January 2015. Callanecc pointed out that Medeis had violated the IBAN by opposing (diff) TRM's nomination, while the issue Medeis complains of in this report is highly trivial. Baseball Bugs knows how to keep out harm's way and is only disruptive when one of these discussions starts. The solution is to topic ban Medeis only as they are the source of the conflict. The situation can be reviewed if that remedy is insufficient. TRM does good work at those venues and should be encouraged to continue. Johnuniq (talk) 23:43, 2 January 2015 (UTC) A violation is a violation. Either there's an IBAN or there isn't. To dismiss one item as meaningful and the other as trivial suggests bias on your part. As to your personal attack on me, please note that I have no current problems with either editor, nor do I anticipate any. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:42, 3 January 2015 (UTC) Wait, what? We aren't allowed to distinguish between meaningful issues and trivial ones? Please. Also, it seems to me the lengthy "discussions" in this thread between Baseball Bugs and TRM are violating the spirit of the iBan. Finally, a question: if it's (apparently) okay for the iBanned users to talk to each other in this thread, does it make any sense for Medeis to not be allowed to notify TRM when one of these threads is opened? Mellowed Fillmore (talk) 01:56, 3 January 2015 (UTC) We're allowed to discuss the matter here. And you raise a good question about the awkwardness that's a consequence of an IBAN. That's why their IBAN should be modified or abolished. OR, there needs to be a solid, consistent mechanism for reporting and notification, i.e. a list of exceptions built into the definition of an IBAN, so that the victim can handle it openly instead of having to sneak around back of the house and pass notes to an admin. The apparent need to do that kind of stuff undermines the (presumed) intended purpose of an IBAN, or any ban for that matter. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:10, 3 January 2015 (UTC) Do you think there is any real chance an admin would have blocked Medeis for posting a notification on TRM's talk page? Mellowed Fillmore (talk) 02:29, 3 January 2015 (UTC) Yes. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:40, 3 January 2015 (UTC) There's been a death in my extended family which has been a big strain as my sister was visiting from 300 miles away for the holidays and that has been upset with the need to care for her young children and plan for the viewing and funeral tomorrow. Hence my unwillingness to stop by here for what is unpleasant enough in normal circumstances. Editting WP should be a pleasure. To summarize, a year ago, after three ANI's and with a huge consensus among dovens of commenters in favor of an IBAN it was instituted, and all the parties were formally warned not to address or interact with each other directly or indirectly. Over that period one editor has regularly flouted the IBAN, been warned for it and blocked for it. And there's really not even been a good reason like an edit war of religion to violate the IBAN, just a feeling the admin involved is above it. When this happens in regard to me I can remain silent in the face of criticism, I can respond and face a block for violating the IBAN myself, or I can bring the complaint here and hope an admin will at least deliver a talk-page warning. There's no need for any other action if this IBAN is actually enforced. Given coming here is the proper course of action, I come here. I don't expect editors who don't want to be bothered looking into the reasons for the IBAN to tell me my complaints are a nuisance, they needn't comment. The nuisance is one editor who can't seem to go a month without violating the IBAN. There's something extremely wrong when making goodfaith edits in favor of an ITN nomination gets you abuse from both a user who should know better and from people with a duty of care given their position who just don't want to be bothered. μηδείς (talk) 04:06, 3 January 2015 (UTC) Replace IBAN with very strong warning I propose that the IBAN be lifted, since it is not working except to facilitate gaming, but instead replaced by a very strong warning that any incivility be dealt with by a block of one week, escalating on second offense to two weeks. Support as proposer. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:27, 3 January 2015 (UTC) Please stop dropping "let's be nice to everyone" messages into contentious topics. We all know that Medeis is more "civil" than TRM (and is only disruptive by cluelessness, not by language), so the proposal is not addressing the issue. Medeis needs to stop doing the things that TRM feels duty bound to highlight, and Medeis needs to stop bringing minor issues to ANI. As shown above, there is an IBAN violation, namely Medeis opposed (diff) a nomination by TRM. That is what needs to be sanctioned, although no one here really cares about the IBAN—we just want the silliness to stop. The solution is to topic ban Medeis and let them propose a solution to return to that area if they want. Johnuniq (talk) 06:37, 3 January 2015 (UTC) It was my understanding, when this general question was raised about a year ago, that the normal course of business at ITN was not to be considered a violation. If Medeis had instead said "Support", would that still have been a "violation"? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:53, 3 January 2015 (UTC) If this is true then the entire premise of this particular ANI is fallacious and should be closed immediately with a warning not to repeat such behaviour. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:44, 3 January 2015 (UTC) That's a major "if", because I may be remembering incorrectly. The question is whether, if users X and Y are in an IBAN, and if user X proposes something, is user Y allowed to comment on the proposal? I thought so, but maybe not. Someone needs to clarify that detail, as there seem to be opinions both ways here. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 09:52, 3 January 2015 (UTC) Indeed, but it's certainly something I recall Medeis herself saying. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:24, 3 January 2015 (UTC) Perhaps you're thinking of μηδείς's comment in the discussion I linked above which I'll relink here Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive260#.5BMoved from ANI.5D Possible interaction ban violation where μηδείς said "Please note the other editor has voted in opposition to my nominations in the past, for example diff without my objection then or now, just as I am accused of here. Please note the other editor has acted directly on the same thread on which I have just commented, with no objection by me or any other user. diff" and "I am not interested in stopping the other editor from acting on or voting on ITN threads with which I have been involved, and I don't see any reason for any restriction on my addressing such matters objectively without regard to the other editor. On occasion we disagree on the issue at hand. Neither of us has to address the other to do so." At the time, I didn't think was going to work, nor did I think this was really in tune with how ibans are supposed to work. However as mentioned above, I decided to trust that you'd all somehow work it out (also I was more concerned about the watchlist issue). Since I don't visit ITNC much at all, I presumed for a long time this was mostly happening. However the recent ANI threads suggests it's not. I don't know if μηδείς has changed their mind, it appears their complaint is not that you commented on a proposal which had been started by them, but that your commented appeared to be addressing a specific comment they had made, which is a somewhat distinct point and seemed to be specifically precluded by their earlier comment. (They also suggested it was addressing their comment in a retaliatory or tit for tat way.) This may be why μηδείς felt their reply to the candidate started by you was acceptable, even if they felt yours wasn't. (Although I find it hard to believe they too weren't thinking at least of your comment, although of course it's difficult comment on a candidate wording if without at least partially replying to the person who proposed it, one of the reasons I felt this wasn't going to work.) Of course since the iban is community imposed, your view, that of μηδείς or BB is ultimately not that important compared to the communities view on what the iban entails as I think you agree. Nil Einne (talk) 14:24, 3 January 2015 (UTC) I agree that it is certainly not the first time that one of them has commented on an ITN proposed by the other. However, I agree that doing so doesn't seem to be in the spirit of IBAN, nor does it seem to be very workable in practice. I would favor a clarification of the IBAN that says that parties can not comment on (or take action on) ITN candidates proposed by the other party. Dragons flight (talk) 18:34, 3 January 2015 (UTC) The clear and obvious difference being I never drag Medeis here every two minutes when she comments on any of my proposals. Yet it seems fine, even commonplace for it to work the other way round. She can't have her cake and eat it. Having said that, if the community wish to block me, please make sure the block is evenly handed out this time. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:26, 3 January 2015 (UTC) The interactions in this section indicate to me that the IBAN is still needed to prevent disruption. So I'd much rather see the IBAN enforced with an iron fist (which I'm happy to help with) than a civility parole (which have proved ineffective in the past). What about adding a clause preventing them both from commenting on each other's enforcement requests and from making any comments other than the initial report on their own enforcement requests. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 06:50, 3 January 2015 (UTC) That kind of leads up to what I was pondering earlier today. A given party could report a complaint, and then let the admins here decide whether it's a valid complaint or not. No further comments by the complaining party and none by the one being complained about. That might work. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:58, 3 January 2015 (UTC) I seldom respond to these endless requests, so mandating that I shouldn't in the future will make little or no difference to me. This was an exceptional circumstance as the double-teaming (as is clearly evident) has kicked off once again. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:42, 3 January 2015 (UTC) You are mistaken about the "double-teaming". I have no quarrel with either of you. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 09:47, 3 January 2015 (UTC) How are you, Bugs, not violating your IBAN by chiming in here? Jehochman Talk 09:56, 3 January 2015 (UTC) I was under the impression that ANI was a safe haven for reasonable discussion of IBANs and the like. And as you may recall from your "arena" (i.e. "sandbox") page a month or two ago, there are no real issues between TRM and me. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 09:58, 3 January 2015 (UTC) You two need to officially shake hands and end the IBAN before you join a thread like this one. Please cease commenting here about TRM and Medeis until that happens. Thanks. Jehochman Talk 10:13, 3 January 2015 (UTC) How should I go about doing that? Should I ask here for the IBAN to be revoked? OK, I will. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:16, 3 January 2015 (UTC) For clarity, are you saying you don't normally respond to the ANI requests by μηδείς calling for some intervention due to alleged violations by you of the iban? Nil Einne (talk) 12:19, 3 January 2015 (UTC) A rough review of the archives seems to indicate that TRM has participated in more than half of the IBAN complaints initiated by Medeis. Dragons flight (talk) 19:10, 3 January 2015 (UTC) I'm mildly surprised by that, but, as most threads deteriorate into hysteria and inaccuracies, I am sometimes obliged to correct them. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:33, 3 January 2015 (UTC) I found the same thing so wanted to make sure I understood what was being stated. While it's possible I've missed some (in particular if they were hatted or otherwise not findable by searching the displayed page, or if they were removed, or if they didn't happen at AN//I or simply if I didn't noticed that μηδείς was complaining about TRM somehow), my finding was in these two Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive863#Further violation of interaction ban and incivility by The Rambling Man at ITN, etc & Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive865#IBAN violations by User:The Rambling Man, further evidence, TRM did reply. In Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive863#IBAN violations by The Rambling Man, further evidence (although this appeared to be a sort of follow up to the earlier complaint) and Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive861#IBAN Violation between User:The Rambling Man against User:Medeis TRM did not reply. TRM also replied to Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive865#IBAN Revisited: The Rambling Man, Baseball Bugs, Medeis although that was a general discussion of the iban and not initiated by μηδείς. I didn't look for these and if μηδείς didn't participate I may not have seen them (as people may refer to μηδείς as medeis). There's also the request a long time ago I mentioned above although that was against by μηδείς and not initiated by them or TRM. Finally there was the original discussion to implement the topic ban as well as Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive258#Community sanctions and block. Nil Einne (talk) 08:40, 4 January 2015 (UTC) Support replacement of an IBAN that clearly isn't effectual with warnings backed immediately and in threat of future action of more relevant blocks and topic bans. IBANs resolve nothing. If an editor is being obnoxious and refusing to change then what are they doing in Wikipedia. There is no purpose in just silencing people. Judgement should be made on any clear infraction of CIVIL and PA with sentences that may mean something. GregKaye 20:11, 9 January 2015 (UTC) Counter argument You know what, in all the bluster and guff above, I had actually failed to read that Medeis had used scare quotes and commented (using exactly the same words as me) on one of my proposals, just here before I'd even added a factually accurate and sourced comment to an item that she didn't nominate. I have no problem at all with Medeis commenting however she likes on any ITN item I nominate, nor have I ever made any claim to the contrary. I firmly believed that we could work together on ITN items, albeit mainly in opposition to one another. But now it's clear that Medeis is taking every possible opportunity to get me blocked, banned, whatever. I am sick and tired of her constant harassment and nitpicking and sad stories. I am out of this discussion, frankly I'm sorry I even commented in the first place. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:32, 3 January 2015 (UTC) Comment Given the ongoing disruption caused by the frequent unfounded visits to ANI by Medeis, and by this new, spurious thread based on something Medeis has previously done themselves, I think we need to consider the possibility of a topic ban for Medeis from ITN. Several other editors have now complained of the disruption here by Medeis constantly filing reports, all of which have been refuted, and this has to end. - SchroCat (talk) 23:02, 3 January 2015 (UTC) I think it's a mischaracterization to say they have all been refuted. TRM was blocked last month (and Medeis received no sanction) after an admin was sufficiently convinced of her claims of harassment. Having been introduced to TRM by that incident and having no prior experience or opinion of him, I can tell you it seemed pretty cut and dry to me as well. That block was only overturned (bizarrely) after Medeis and Bugs advocated for it to be set aside. And most of the rest of these ANI's have ended with the community here just throwing up their hands in exasperation at what to do about these two (and to a lesser extent the issues between Bugs and TRM); that's a very different thing from refuting that there is an issue with the behaviour of one of the three parties. However, I do agree with you that, as of this filing, things have clearly gone to an unacceptably hyperbolic place. This is why I view IBANs as counter-intuitive and inconsistent with the spirit of our most important behavioural policies -- because they excuse unacceptable behaviour on the part of one or more of the involved parties as a mere matter of context, when clearly if an editor is capable of violating the collegial spirit of the project with regard to one person, they are capable of doing it with another or (as in this case) finding ways to lob broadsides at the original party from a distance anyway. But all of that being said, it seems the community is still not yet ready to invoke longer-lasting and more general blocks -- though I'm increasingly convinced this acrimony will not ultimately stop short of such sanctions. So, until I got diverted into addressing issues of personal attacks between these parties in the section bellow, I was about to suggest something along the lines of what you have above, but on a more voluntary, mutual, and equitable basis. I was wondering -- though I very much doubt both parties will agree to it -- if Medeis would be willing to voluntarily abstain from contributing to ITN if TheRamblingMan agreed to stay out of the Reference Desks, the other area where they sometimes cross paths with explosive consequences. I think TRM might be amenable to that solution, but I'm more dubious about Medeis, since ITN seems more central to her activities than the Ref Desks are to TRM. Still, if neither party can entirely respect the IBAN, I think carving up the areas the two operate on (ridiculous as that is), is the only option short of blocking one or both. Personally my observation has been that one party is much more inclined to instigate these little meltdowns, but the other is rarely far behind in responding to these passive-aggressive overtures. So, if they can't find a way to stay out of eachother's way (and stop wasting all of our time), it may just be the case that both being asked to take a break from the project will be the only solution remaining. Snow talk 01:20, 4 January 2015 (UTC) The repeated complaints by Medeis certainly seem to suggest a vendetta on her part and this does not favorably impress me. I think Medeis needs to do some soul–searching and ask herself why she continues to open these threads. Mellowed Fillmore (talk) 23:28, 3 January 2015 (UTC) Proposal to strengthen IBAN Proposing this in a new section for discussion. The discussions between Medeis and The Rambling Man at ANI (as well as the various bits of evidence) have shown that an IBAN is still needed as they don't seem to be able to work collaboratively. So I propose that What about adding a clause preventing them both from commenting on each other's enforcement requests and from making any comments other than the initial report on their own enforcement requests be added to the wording of the IBAN to prevent the disruption evident in this section. In addition that they both be warned that the IBAN will be strictly enforced with blocks (which I'm happy to help with, assuming people don't consider me INVOLVED given my comments here). Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 02:11, 4 January 2015 (UTC) Support as proposer. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 02:11, 4 January 2015 (UTC) Support it would probably be easier to anaylze these complaints without the involved parties getting off on lengthy arguments that hinder any actual resolution. Mellowed Fillmore (talk) 02:25, 4 January 2015 (UTC) Oppose With due respect to Callanecc, my take-away from the past few ANI's (and the events at ITN and elsewhere which have prompted them) has been distinctly different; from what I have observed, the more the IBAN has been stressed as a solution, the more drama has resulted as more editors (in an every increasing number of project spaces) become unwitting proxies for their issues. This results from the fact that the increasing focus upon the IBAN causes one of the parties to react to provocation that is increasingly minute in nature, be it perceived or real. Meanwhile, the other editor seems prone to launching passive-aggressive comments that either attack the disliked qualities of his perceived opponent in broad terms or else target large groups of editors in the spaces they share, such that he can continue to criticize that party without being said to be directly engaging him. I can't escape the conclusion that the IBAN has served no purpose but to greatly exacerbate the existing drama between the two, spread the ill-will to encompass many more parties, and draw more and more editors into the the effort to parse just who is more at fault, to the detriment of several highly-important spaces. I have little faith that adding more specific conditions to the IBAN will do much to reform the approach and attitudes of the involved parties in a long-term manner, which is really the issue that ought to be addressed here. I think the IBAN should be removed or that we should at least stop trying to lean on it as a solution reasonably likely to bring closure to this issue. I think the next time there's a conflict between the two, a single, uninvolved administrator should be asked (by every party present at the time, to make sure it gets due attention) to investigate the issue, make his best determination as to who was the real provocateur and block that user for two months. I daresay nothing short of that message will disentangle this pair. Alternatively the two could come to a mutual understanding between them as to who will operate where on the project, with no overlap, but given just how little they can agree on, I don't see that as terribly likely either. Snow talk 03:12, 4 January 2015 (UTC) Comment Wouldn't this proposal just encourage more of these time-wasting complaints? And let's be clear, it is time-wasting. Medeis seems to feel completely free to flaunt the IBAN when it suits her (eg this diff pointed out above) but then comes running here when TRM does more-or-less exactly the same thing. If anything, Medeis actions are a considerably worse violation of the blockban - if the IBAN is really phrased so that one can comment on the other's ITN nominations then whoever drafted it deserves a largish trout. I just can't see how that isn't a violation of the ban in and of itself. Given that background, only hours before the edits that spawned this complaint, it's pretty hard to see this complaint in good faith. I think the time has come to stop tinkering with the terms of the ban and hand out some hard porridge - either a block each way for IBAN violations, or a TBAN for Medeis that will stop this nonsense. Or both. GoldenRing (talk) 05:48, 4 January 2015 (UTC) There is no TBAN, GR, and the issue of a TBAN on any editor was argued directly and roundly rejected in the Jan 2014 ending ANI. Both TRM and I are allowed to oppose and support and work on each other's nominations and those of third parties, simply without quoting each other directly, reverting, etc. We've done so repeatedly, and to his credit he has thanked me for my comments, although I don't believe I have thanked him. I have defended him though. Had TRM complained here like I did above I would probably have simply removed the comment out of good will, as it was a side matter. (Has he complained about this? I realize that sometimes noms I oppose are posted anyway, so I do try at least to improve their blurbs) I commented along with others that the blurb was inaccurate (at least in American English, I don't know if stampedes in Britain are called crushes) but opposed it on notability grounds. I did not quote, immediately after he used it, a word which only TRM had used. In other words, I did not quote, immediately after he used it, a word which only TRM had used. You are simply not comparing like to like. He was quoting mine and only my rationale in support of a nomination, I was criticizing the wording of a blurb as a blurb. μηδείς (talk) 06:12, 4 January 2015 (UTC) ...a blurb that TRM had proposed, yes. TBH, I think, given the sorts of proposals being made above, that you should stop commenting here. But that's my non-admin $0.02 and you're free to ignore it. GoldenRing (talk) 06:46, 4 January 2015 (UTC) Comment The TBAN was not "roundly rejected" - it was initially _accepted_, and overturned on a technicality. Here is the relevant discussion. I would certainly support re-opening that case. Tevildo (talk) 21:25, 4 January 2015 (UTC) There was 2 to 1 support for the IBAN and almost no support whatsovere for a TBAN. The first closingadmin realized his mistake, and asked that his closure be reviewed, at which tim it was shown there was no significant support for a TBAN. Not that that has anything to do with this proposal, which accuses TRM of disrupting the thread with his responses. I think that's absurd. I started the thread with only one complaint, but he should still be free to say whatever is civil and suppported by diffs to support himself. I find it spooky that commenters here think the only option is for TRM and myself to be deathly enemies, and to think we mist want each other indeffed from the project. I simply want the standing IBAN enforced, and feel it's been violated by TRM often enough for admins to take notice. 06:53, 5 January 2015 (UTC) The TBAN was overturned because the closing admin used the word "overwhelming". Roger Casement was hanged on a comma - this is an example of the process going the other way. However, that was last year, it's water under the bridge, the cat has not been belled. I would merely ask those persons in authority to consider the whole history of the case, not merely each individual incident, before making a decision - and to _make_ a decision, not just to put it off eternally. Tevildo (talk) 19:17, 5 January 2015 (UTC) Support I think that in this case neither user should communicate about or to each other including violations. It should be permissible for them to leave a single message to an admin if they think it has been violated, that admin can act or bring it here if they see it has merit. Chillum 06:31, 4 January 2015 (UTC) Oppose Like Snow, I think that the IBAN has not helped matters. I don't see making it more stringent as the way to go. This proposal would prevent the user who has been reported from providing relevant information in his or her defence. That seems unfair to me. Neljack (talk) 22:47, 7 January 2015 (UTC) Oppose as per Snow. If these two editors are regularly interested in the editing of Wikipedia than a relevant sanction for relevant infraction relating to against guidelines practice would be the application of blocks and topic bans. IBANS resolve nothing and would only serve to hamper communication with regard to editing content. We should be able to resolve things without merely telling people shhh. I think that discussion of IBAN here is a cop out of actually trying to deal with a potential problem. GregKaye 20:21, 9 January 2015 (UTC) Medeis/TRM Discussion Note: This sub-section was refactored from another thread which concerned the IBAN between Baseball Bugs and The Rambling Man and placed here as the section solely concerns Medeis and TRM. My thanks for the patience during my unforseen absence. I don't seek any further sanctions as would be implied by the stronger IBAN proposal above. I won't comment on any disruptiveness, but everyone here needs free speech if its factual and civil. I can also understand that someone only just coming upon this might think that TRM's quoting my "iconic" and directly arguing against in itself it wasn't a big deal. But that's only true on its own, and when it's seen in the context of more than two years of hounding now, it's kind of like saying somebody's violating parole is not a big deal. The disruption is wanton, willful, and one sided. And very simply addressed by nothing more than taking the already hard-fought IBAN seriously. I think this comment of TRM's about secret campaigns and off wiki-emailing is telling in the extreme. First, is this "campaign" the reason why TRM felt it necessary to violate the IBAN this time? Does TRM even deny that he violated the IBAN by directly quoting me? Yes, I have emailed BBB and various admins in the past, and I welcome them to release the entire text of my emails to them, so long as they are complete and unaltered. You'll see I emailed an Admin last spring who had placed a stern warning on TRM's page and asked him to enforce it when TRM ignored it. That admin said he was already in a conflict with TRM and didn't want to be seen as piling on. It's why I have been bringing violations here, Most recently you will see me emailing BBB and suggesting that we ask that TRM's 48 block be removed, and me making Jehochman aware that I had done so and supported BBB's request that TRM be unblocked. But I haven't waged any sort of secret campaign that I haven't stated openly, and I did not contact BBB or any admin re this complaint off-wiki, or even want to, or expect to have to file this complaint. It's clear from the above diff that TRM thinks the entire process, including the ANI concluded last January with his support, has been a conspiracy against him, that he's the victim, that he deserves better, that he shouldn't face the consequences of his actions, that I am 'doing this to him' and that you are 'doing this to him' [my scarequotes-not TRM's actual words]. Note that all I asked for from him was that he withdraw the comment in the first sentence of this complaint. I still ask that. μηδείς (talk) 04:11, 4 January 2015 (UTC) Medeis, I'm of two minds on this issue. On the one hand, you are absolutely right about the personal attacks. Putting aside for the moment the question of whether his activities at ITN and elsewhere have or have not violated the IBAN (and whether they constitute him hounding you), there is no question here on whether his behaviours have violated WP:NPA repeatedly in these very ANI threads. Point in fact, for the last couple of months, he has made dozens of vocal and unambiguous accusations against no fewer than seven different editors that I've seen (some of whom had just met him) that they are a part of a conspiracy/club/plot/scheme/bandwagon to get him banned. And he has insinuated that this secret cabal is utilizing all manner of underhanded tactics and that they are violating any number of specific policies, but in all of these accusations, he has yet to once provide a single diff, link, or other piece of evidence to support a single one of these claims. There are no two ways about this; these are absolutely classified as serious personal attacks under WP:NPA. And yet, somehow, despite the fact that he is blatantly and repeatedly launching personal attacks from ANI itself, over an extended period, he has not received so much as a single warning from a single admin. I am nothing short of astonished that the community and admins here have let this fly right in front of their faces, and it raises serious questions about the efficacy of our administrative process at present and the willingness of our admins to engage with a problem editor once he's passed a certain bar of tenaciousness. He seems utterly immune to sanction at this point, no matter what behavioural policy he violates, unambiguously and in our most active forum for behavioural oversight. On the other hand, look at how you've behaved over the same period. Last month, you filed two ANIs against him for IBAN violations and hounding. Then, unless I'm remembering this wrong, after he was blocked for this behaviour, you and Bugs both petitioned to have that block removed (!?), and it was. For a certainty you and Bugs then both bent over backwards insisting that the problem had been blown out of proportion and that all parties had proven that they could work together constructively. Meanwhile, other concerned editors, attracted by your request for assistance in this matter who were trying to establish exactly what had happened and what should be done about it suddenly were getting no help from you in straightening things out; in fact, you were working very much at cross-purposes to that effort. You were asked repeatedly whether you felt that TRM had followed you to the Reference Desks to hound you, a question which directly ignored, all while you and Bugs insisted that there was no problem that you couldn't work out with TRM and that, if anything, the IBAN should be dropped, in the middle of a thread you opened to get it enforced more stringently. More than willing to be done with the matter, the community allowed the discussion to expire on your and Bugs' insistence that it was a non-issue. A day or two later, Bugs had opened a new ANI again TRM, which was quickly shut down in disgust by the community here. Now, here we are, not three weeks later, with yet another ANI lodged by you, this time on an issue that you yourself stipulate was not a significant violation. What we have her is a girl who cried wolf situation, if ever I've seen one. This bipolar behaviour has got to stop. You don't like TRM's behaviour? Well guess what, you're the one who is both encouraging his worst behaviour and enabling him to get away with it. You've created an atmosphere here where everything has been reduced to a discussion of the IBAN and the issues between the two of you, when there are actually much larger issues at work. Without this IBAN smokescreen, discussion here would be concentrated on the fact that there has been an insane number of civility violations that we could have, and should have, been talking about all along. So here we are, at the place you've brought us to. I don't think your behaviour has been nearly as objectionable as TRM's -- but that being said, if you get blocked or topic banned, it's going to be more your fault than his. So I'm asking you, as a last-ditch effort to find a compromise solution to this nightmare of a situation, to be the bigger person and to pull back from one of the areas you two share in common and see if maybe he wouldn't be willing to do the same, removing the contexts in which you two are likely to cross paths and (inevitably) begin to flame one another. It's not a thing any editor should be asked to do, but then, no editor who has the best interests of the project in mind should have let the situation get this far. So I'm asking you this favour. I can't ask TRM; he'll just treat the request as a sign of weakness and go on the offensive, as he did when I tried a similar approach in the last ANI. So, though I have doubts that TRM will agree to it himself, is there any posibility you'd be willing to give up editing on ITN if TRM will agree to stay out of an area important to you, say, for example, the Ref Desks? Because, short of that, I don't see this resolving without a block or topic ban for someone, and at this rate, I'd say it's 50-50 which one of you it will be. Snow talk 08:08, 4 January 2015 (UTC) I have asked for TRM to revert his obvious violation. Look at the first sentence of the above thread. That request still stands, but he won't even admit that he's quoted me, nor comment on the fact that until Jehochman reverted his block at mine and BBB's requests (we wanted the end of misbehavior, not his punishment, blocking, or banishment) that he was crying he was taking his ball and going home during the last sanction against him. This is not the state I have brought anyone to any more than a rape victim is wasting time judges could spend golfing. If this is closed without his comments being reverted and without a block, then simply expect me to bring the next violation tio this board if it happens, and expect me to expect admins to do their job and enforce existing community sanctions. TRM is an adult, a sysop, an admin, a parent and a post grad from what I am aware. let him act like one, and dont't blame me for reporting his misbehavior. See blaming the victim. See TRM's edits promising to quit, saying we got him, and wallowing pity while not amending his behavior: TRM's playing the victim in response to his last block The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. (cur | prev) 14:38, 5 December 2014‎ Fyunck(click) (talk | contribs)‎ . . (475 bytes) (+475)‎ . . (→‎Sat it ain't so: new section) (undo | thank) (cur | prev) 13:12, 5 December 2014‎ The Rambling Man (talk | contribs)‎ . . (empty) (-9,105)‎ . . (←Blanked the page) (undo | thank) (cur | prev) 11:52, 5 December 2014‎ Martinevans123 (talk | contribs)‎ . . (9,105 bytes) (+251)‎ . . (→‎Unblocked: also, it takes much longer to get up north, the slow way) (undo | thank) (cur | prev) 11:32, 5 December 2014‎ Jehochman (talk | contribs)‎ . . (8,854 bytes) (+648)‎ . . 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(4,415 bytes) (+235)‎ . . (→‎what happened. John?: no, I'm Spartacus, sorry to disappoint you!) (undo | thank) (cur | prev) 04:32, 5 December 2014‎ SineBot (talk | contribs)‎ m . . (4,180 bytes) (+284)‎ . . (Signing comment by 217.43.221.251 - "") (undo) (cur | prev) 04:30, 5 December 2014‎ 217.43.221.251 (talk)‎ . . (3,896 bytes) (+27)‎ . . (undo) (cur | prev) 03:47, 5 December 2014‎ The Rambling Man (talk | contribs)‎ . . (3,869 bytes) (-43,104)‎ . . (remove the work) (undo | thank) (cur | prev) 03:46, 5 December 2014‎ The Rambling Man (talk | contribs)‎ . . (46,973 bytes) (-813)‎ . . (they got me) (undo | thank) (cur | prev) 03:39, 5 December 2014‎ The Rambling Man (talk | contribs)‎ . . (47,786 bytes) (+265)‎ . . (→‎what happened. John?: who are you and what is your purpose?) (undo | thank) (cur | prev) 03:37, 5 December 2014‎ The Rambling Man (talk | contribs)‎ . . (47,521 bytes) (+684)‎ . . (→‎Blocked: thanks luke) (undo | thank) (cur | prev) 03:26, 5 December 2014‎ Lukeno94 (talk | contribs)‎ . . (46,837 bytes) (+670)‎ . . (→‎Blocked) (undo | thank) (cur | prev) 03:23, 5 December 2014‎ SineBot (talk | contribs)‎ m . . (46,167 bytes) (+284)‎ . . (Signing comment by 217.43.221.251 - "") (undo) (cur | prev) 03:22, 5 December 2014‎ 217.43.221.251 (talk)‎ . . (45,883 bytes) (+53)‎ . . (undo) (cur | prev) 03:01, 5 December 2014‎ The Rambling Man (talk | contribs)‎ . . (45,830 bytes) (+215)‎ . . (→‎Tense?: no, time's up for me) (undo | thank) (cur | prev) 02:59, 5 December 2014‎ The Rambling Man (talk | contribs)‎ . . (45,615 bytes) (+337)‎ . . (→‎Blocked: ok) (undo | thank) (cur | prev) 02:45, 5 December 2014‎ ChrisGualtieri (talk | contribs)‎ . . (45,278 bytes) (+318)‎ . . (→‎Tense?: new section) (undo | thank) (cur | prev) 22:12, 4 December 2014‎ Laser brain (talk | contribs)‎ . . (44,960 bytes) (+880)‎ . . (→‎Blocked: new section) (undo | thank) (cur | prev) 16:30, 4 December 2014‎ The Rambling Man (talk | contribs)‎ . . (44,080 bytes) (-305)‎ . . (Undid revision 636663975 by Medeis (talk) nein danke, you can't have it both ways) (undo | thank) Note, Snow, TRM hasn't provided a single diff to prove that everyone who's criticized him is part of some vast wide ring conspiracy to have him banned. Note that not a single person has provided a single email showing I have wanted, initiated, or conspired to attack TRM in any way. I promise never to file an ANI against T if he never violates the IBAN again. I also promise to return if necessary. TRM can end this now by reverting the personal comment or any admin who wants can let him serve out his 48 hr sentence and warn him further violations will win him further sanctions.μηδείς (talk) 07:19, 5 January 2015 (UTC) Well, to expound upon your (certainly hyperbolic) allusion, do you know what happens when a rape victim changes their story multiple times? The attacker walks free. It doesn't matter that the victim might have had a good reason (intimidation, being manipulated, or any other cause to which one might be sympathetic), it's still going to handicap anyone trying to make sure the right thing gets done. That's not victim blaming, that's just the reality of the situation. Several times you have brought ANIs, drawing large numbers of editors into the drama, many of whom then run afoul of TRM and are subject to many of the same behaviour you are complaining of (especially concerning his conspiracy theory personal attacks). And then suddenly (and invariably) you're saying the whole situation is overblown. And all of those parties who have made (often torturous) efforts to engage him or try to document his misbehaviour for the community and admins (which requires HUGE efforts in diffing, because he will otherwise happily call one a liar, a conspirator, or someone just out to get him banned because they don't like him) are left holding water for you. Then the thread just pewters out, and the issue fades from view...until you bring the next complaint a few days or weeks later. That is maddening after a few cycles. And I can easily provide a list of links (not unlike yours above) that demonstrate you perpetuating this cycle. I want his personal attacks and general incivility to stop too. Like you say of yourself, I don't want him banned per say, I just want him to reform his behaviour in this area. Hell, at this point I'd settle for him admitting that his behaviour has ever been a problem -- that would be a start at least, to be able to make even the slightest critical observation about his behaviour without him resorting to personal attacks, accusations of conspiracy, playing the victim, and just generally engaging in misdirection. The problem is, your behaviour is not getting us there, because you're jumping on trivial IBAN violations now, which focuses the discussion in a way that the community here is just look to stamp out the latest flare-up of what most have come to view as incessant but petty squabble. Then when you change your tune, for whatever reason, most feel like that's been accomplished, and glad to be done with the newest iteration of this toxic issue, someone closes the thread. And reasonably enough, really -- if not for the fact that the issue has come to a "close" in this manner so many times, which not everyone may be aware of. But of course the situation is just going to go Groundhog Day on us again, ad nauseum. Look, if you really want to do this -- if you really just want a just and lasting solution to this mess, you need a change in strategy. What you've done in the last post is a good start. Provide evidence, not your perspective. If you feel hounded, use diffs to hold up a mirror on his behaviour so the community sees him through his own words. Some people, if you engage you in a "he-said/she-said" style of discussion, are more than happy to turn that to their advantage. So don't provide that support. If he hounds, or otherwise hassles in a personal way, show us. From every angle. A diff is a small little link on it's own, so he can't even cry "wall of text" and eventually dedicated users (hopefully an admin amongst them) will look through them. Let his voice speak for himself and then he can't claim everything that is being said about him is a lie. If you want a leg up on this process, go back to this ANI. I posted dozens of diffs and links there of him acting inappropriately aggressively towards other editors (including numerous example of doing so with people he had just met). And as to him constantly crying "conspiracy" any time people try to suggest his behaviour is becoming uncivil, you can find unending examples of that in ANI threads themselves, as well as the Ref Desk talk page discussions about a month back. In short, don't threaten to bring this issue back here yet again; instead commit to handling it the right way now. Just stick to the facts; that's one of the beauties of Wikipedia -- generally speaking, no event is entirely lost to the past. You can let people see what happened, exactly as it happened, rather than engaging in accusation. Don't get into a mudslinging fight with him, I promise you will lose -- either because he outsmarts you or people just get sick of it. Snow talk 13:29, 5 January 2015 (UTC) I am not trying to be contrary, Snow, but I find your statement just to commit to handling it the right way now confusing. Not including this post, I count 6 total statements by me above; the first one giving the diff where TRM quoted me directly at ITN. (I'll bold it and pipe it from the word "ironic" to make it easier to spot. There were no other diffs to provide unless someone wanted a link to prior complaints, all of which have been diffed-- because I wasn't about to wait for continued provocations. I don't come here complaining about TRM when he isn't quoting, addressing or reverting me. Having been accused of conspiring to get TRM banned it seems to me bringing complaint here is the only proper thing to do. Nor do I think sending the message that TRM can get away with "minor" infractions is at all proper, leaving me to document them (where? it would be an IBAN violation) until they reach critical mass. Given the IBAN is in place, any violation is a violation. If you or some other admin is volunteering to deal with any future complaint I'll gladly accept that offer, and they can archive this thread. μηδείς (talk) 02:01, 6 January 2015 (UTC) Look, even with the dimn view I've taken on much of TRMs behaviour the last month and a half, when I look at that link, I honestly don't see a glaring issue. Yes, technically it did violate the IBAN in a miniscule manner, but he didn't do so in order to attack you or engage in tendentious behaviour, but rather to address a content matter in a factual way -- and you're the one who has repeatedly stated (in the previous two ANI threads and the section above) that you and TRM can share spaces and collaborate in a collegial manner, whether the IBAN is in place, so why are you complaining about a minor violation of the ban when it doesn't seem to be a continuation of the hostility between you that necessitates the ban in the first place, and you're more than willing to argue that this need has been overstated to begin with, when it suits your purposes? Now, the personal attacks, those are very much a different matter altogether. Other than the advice I've given (document it in a clean, transparent, and organized fashion, so that those here can't help but see how it has transpired), I don't know what to tell you. As I've said previously, that is a glaring issue, especially taking place as it has partly on ANI itself, without so much as warning from a single admin, despite his persistence in these behaviours. Laser brain was the last admin to show a willingness to address his behaviour with a formal sanction, and Jehochman, who reversed that block (in consult with LB), can't have been happy to see this issue arise again almost immediately. Both of those admins, to their credit, have stayed moderately involved with this issue, but as the discussion above clearly demonstrates, you're nit-picking back-and-forth over the IBAN has monopolized the time they may have otherwise spent addressing the WP:NPA concerns (which to my mind are a much bigger issue for the community at large). Though I don't know how much either knows about said issues, it's clear that the both of them (like myself and a growing number of other commenters here) see the IBAN for what it is; a waste of everyone's time and energy that is exacerbating the problems it was meant to resolve. You've wasted opportunities when both have engaged here by arguing picayune points about the IBAN, on which your own arguments have hardly been consistent. I've said it before and I'll say it again -- the IBAN needs to go, or at least be disregarded as the central issue here. Then we can see if you and TRM can get on together. If that proves unfeasible (and I rather suspect that could end up being the case), then at least we can address the underlying behavioural issues and we will at least be talking about what is really wrong the user(s) behaviour. And before you take aim with my claim that you've been inconsistent, let me show you exactly what I mean. I could pull up many examples from the previous ANI's but the fact of the matter is you are presently engaged in sending out mixed messages right now. You started this discussion with the header "The Rambling Man forgets the IBAN once again", implying that you are the victim of habitual harassment. Two posts up in this section, you likened your relationship to that of a victim and attacker and suggested that some of the community response here represents "victim blaming"; and yes I know your exact wording was just exaggeration for effect, but at the very least you are presenting him as an aggressor who just will not leave you alone. But then, in posts that run parallel to these claims and are sometimes written within hours or minutes of them, you claim the community here are misinterpreting the situation and are making mountains out molehills! Let's look at two of your claims, made so close together that you barely have to scroll the page to get from one to the other: 04:11, 4 January 2015: "It's clear from the above diff that TRM thinks the entire process, including the ANI concluded last January with his support, has been a conspiracy against him, that he's the victim, that he deserves better, that he shouldn't face the consequences of his actions, that I am 'doing this to him' and that you are 'doing this to him' [my scarequotes-not TRM's actual words]." 07:19, 5 January: "Note, Snow, TRM hasn't provided a single diff to prove that everyone who's criticized him is part of some vast wide ring conspiracy to have him banned. Note that not a single person has provided a single email showing I have wanted, initiated, or conspired to attack TRM in any way." Compare these against... 06:12, 4 January 2015: "Not that that has anything to do with this proposal, which accuses TRM of disrupting the thread with his responses. I think that's absurd. I started the thread with only one complaint, but he should still be free to say whatever is civil and suppported by diffs to support himself. I find it spooky that commenters here think the only option is for TRM and myself to be deathly enemies, and to think we must want each other indeffed from the project." [Note: bolding mine.] So one minute you're citing the fact that TRM has persisted in these personal attacks labeling you to be a major part of a conspiracy to get him sanctioned as major issue and violation of policy (and they certainly are), but then the next minute you're saying it's "spooky" that any editor would draw the conclusion that either of you is that suspicious/critical of the other. And then back again in short order. This is just one example of one area where you seem to be presenting two entirely different stories depending on whether or not the comments are made in the context of discussing the present IBAN or a potential TBAN. I know you feel that you are parsing distinct issues with regard to both, but the fact of the matter is the tone of your comments and the nature of how you present the relationship between the two of you (and the complications it presents to the community) shifts wildly depending on which of these contexts you are commenting in. So is it really any wonder that the community here become increasingly confused and some have begun to view your complaints as petty? Look, if you want action taken to see to it that the accusations that you are heading a conspiracy against him stop, that's one thing. I certainly support you in that, and if you manage to attract the attention of an uninvolved administrator, I will certainly corroborate that this has been a persistent and blatant issue, with him leveling similar accusations against numerous editors. I'll further provide evidence of other violations of WP:Civility and WP:AGF that I've noted during the same period. But this IBAN nonsense has got to stop. It's not getting us anywhere. It's jsut obsfucating the root issues. And I'll be honest; at the point where I started following these ANI's, I really did see you are the more innocent party and the one most willing to let the issue drop if at all possible. That's started to change in a big way though. Your reaction to him has become like an autoimmune disease; it's doing more damage than the issue it was meant to address. And can I ask you again, since you didn't respond before, is there any possibility that we can end this with a compromise solution wherein you agree to withdraw your participation from ITN in exchange for TRM doing the same with regard to the Ref Desks? (A suggestion I now see has been independently suggested by Floquenbeam in a post that neatly summarizes all of these issues and exactly why we've put up with both of you through all of this, so far). Of course, you shouldn't have to do this, but maybe it's time to put the good of the project (and your own peace of mind) above your freedom of action as an editor in this instance. Snow talk 05:57, 6 January 2015 (UTC) I appreciate, Snow, that you told me to handle it the "right way", but you don't say what the right way is. Now you tell me to make sure accusations of conspiracy aren't raised against me. But all I have done here is bring this complaint directly to the one public forum open to me, with an uncontested diff, and not contacted anyone privately. I haven't talked about socks and proxies and off-wiki conversations. I find determining how to stop people from making accusations of conspiracy (without diffs or evidence) impossible. I've asked and still anyone who received an email or other communication from me conspiring to have TRM banned or from me regarding this last complaint to bring it forward in full. I can't prove a negative. I've also asked that some admin step forward and volunteer to handle future complaints if my reporting here is against policy; that would still be appreciated, assuming they'll be willing to act if there's a violation. At this point any such admin can leave me a message on my talk page. Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 02:25, 7 January 2015 (UTC) I'll tell you what, if you find it agreeable, I'll make this deal with you. Since I know you are concerned about the issue being twisted against you vis-à-vis the IBAN if you go directly to an administrator concerning the accusation-of-conspiracy personal attacks, I will do that on your behalf -- though specifically only in the event that I see TRM make any further accusations of conspiracy and of conduct violations (against you, Bugs, or anyone) without providing any evidence. Not just in defense of you, but in the interests of the community at large. What I'd like to ask in return is that you take a more reserved approach with regard to the IBAN and not file more complaints here unless TRM's comments in your general direction/vicinity are unambiguously personal and harassing. While that may have been the case in the past, I just don't see it as being the case in this most recent filing. I think you let your past experience with TRM cause you to jump-the-gun by quite a bit on this one. I've had my fair share of qualms with TRM's conduct with regard to you, but I don't begin to see the transgression in this case that you seem to have perceived. I'd also very much like you to consider the proposal that has been made that you and TRM divi-up your areas of interest and try not to inhabit the same places -- or at least that you give us some indication as to your initial feelings on this possibility. I know any editor is loathe to obstruct their freedom of movement on the project, especially with regard to an area they feel useful in, but couldn't the benefits outweigh the losses here? After-all, with all the time you've had to waste in these discussions, you're already losing out on a great deal of useful editing. And if you'll excuse some outside judgement, I think your contributions to the Ref Desk are more valuable than work on ITN. And consider also that this solution has been proposed as a type of sanction above, meaning it would be binding. If you voluntarily leave ITN be at present time and TRM ever goes dormant as an editor or goes a long time without contributing there, you can always choose to go back, knowing you won't be prevented from doing so. On the other hand, if this keeps coming back to ANI, there's a good chance the community may decide to slap both of you with TBANs or blocks, and you could end up facing big community resistance if you ever want to return to that area. So I'm asking again -- any chance you'd consider this trade-off as a reasonable compromise solution? Of course, there's no guarantee TRM will be amenable to this approach, but he didn't dismiss it out of hand when it came up as a possibility as a community sanction, so maybe that's a good sign that he might be willing to agree to it. Your thoughts? Snow talk 07:40, 7 January 2015 (UTC) I have no interest in abandoning ITN, since it was a dispute there between TRM and myself that brought him lurking to the ref desks and attacking me, and various other editors. Again, not a single person has shown diff or email where I have gone after TRM as a chat whore or a muppet character or in need of banning, etc., and so forth.. But I will gladly bring any future complaints to you first, Snow, and request this multi-thread be closed at this point. μηδείς (talk) 21:36, 7 January 2015 (UTC) No, I'm concerned you might have misunderstood me in a very significant way. I don't wish to hear about any IBAN violations. If you really must, bring them to ANI, though I think the comments here should be good evidence to you that doing so again when there is not a significant personal attack involved will probably be straw that broke the camel's back leading to a TBAN separating you two. My offer was only to speak to an admin in the event I observed a personal attack here, and even then I won't need (or consider it good form) to get a message from you about it, since whenever I am active on the project, I check ANI every day or other, and will see if the issue arises again. And as with the last message, any such communication will surely cause TRM to raise his hackles at a perceived "piling on". I'll report a personal attack made between the two of you (same as I would consider doing for a like attack between any two other editors), but I don't wish to become the pivot point between you two over the IBAN accusations. As I've tried to make perfectly clear here, I think the IBAN is a waste of everyone's time and has become a major part of the cause of (rather than a part of the solution to) this recurrent furor. I do wish you'd reconsider the option of voluntarily staying out of eachother's way by dividing up your editing spaces, since that's the form I see a sanction taking next time anyway, but I can see you've made up your mind. Snow talk 22:30, 7 January 2015 (UTC) Medeis, Snow Rise has said several times, in different ways, that you go back and forth between filing complaints against TRM's behaviour and saying that TRM's behaviour isn't so bad, and that this back and forth is confusing and ineffective. It seems to me (as an uninvolved non-administrator) that you're bringing these complaints to ANI because you want a specific remedy (for TRM to acknowledge violating the IBAN, maybe?), but when discussion turns towards dealing with the problem in a different way, you balk and begin to minimize the issue. Therefore, my interpretation of the "right way" Snow is referring to is to pick one perspective about TRM and stick with it: in other words, to either make the complaint and let the community deal with it or to defend TRM. Ca2james (talk) 17:08, 8 January 2015 (UTC) Thanks. I guess the best way to describe my position is "good fences make good neighbors". I don't want him provoking me, but I don't want him arrested or his house burnt down either--there's no behind the scenes or even in front of the scenes desire to get him banned, and that needed saying. I've had enough life experience to know that co-workers can have disputes but still be good coworkers when certain boundaries are respected. At this point I suggest this entire thread be archived. μηδείς (talk) 17:28, 8 January 2015 (UTC) I understand your perspective. However, from an outsider's point of view, this whole situation is not unlike that of a victim, who, each time they are beaten by an abuser a particular person violates a restraining order, comes forward and presses charges; but as soon as the abuser person is arrested, says that the abuser isn't they aren't so bad and shouldn't go to jail... meanwhile, the abuser person is getting into fights in the police station. Coming to ANI each time TRM violates the IBAN only to then try to minimize the situation isn't building good boundaries between the two of you and isn't changing TRM's behaviour with respect to those boundaries. All these ANI threads do is show TRM that he can get away with IBAN violations. Ca2james (talk) 16:57, 9 January 2015 (UTC) Enough of the comparisons of me being some kind of abuser or rapist. Thanks. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:39, 9 January 2015 (UTC) Apologies. I've struck that phrase out and tweaked the example slightly. Ca2james (talk) 17:50, 9 January 2015 (UTC) Sure. Damage done. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:55, 9 January 2015 (UTC) Bold proposal to nip the problem in the bud This problem between The Rambling Man and Medeis has gone on far too long, with repeated arguments that continually come up at ANI. It simply seems as if the two are unable to work together. The current interaction ban has been unsuccessful because the two editors are active in the same areas: In The News and the Reference Desk. From past history, it seems as if The Rambling Man is more active at In The News and Medeis more active at the Reference Desk. To nip this problem in the bud, I boldly propose a community ban for Medeis from In The News and a community ban for The Rambling Man from the Reference Desk. This way, the two editors can focus on their own respective pages without all of this trouble. If they decide in the future that they can get along, the bans can be lifted. 86.170.130.156 (talk) 10:53, 7 January 2015 (UTC) Support as proposer. 86.170.130.156 (talk) 10:53, 7 January 2015 (UTC) Comment Had this proposal been made sooner (in a "put to vote" fashion, that is; a few editors have suggested it previously), I'd probably have supported it without reservation. However, just at the moment, as per discussion above, I would not mind waiting to see if both parties could be convinced to voluntarily endorse this course of action, or at least to hear their perspectives on this proposal. There will presumably be less ill-will this way, as they will part from the issue without a further community sanction. I have to think that must be worth something to them (and us). Failing some sort of agreement between the two to reduce the drama, though -- and it need not necessarily be the one proposed above -- this would certainly be the least punitive of the the TBAN options. Snow talk 13:38, 7 January 2015 (UTC) Comment Since it is now clear that Medeis will not agree to this measure voluntarily, but it also seems there is too little community interest left in this thread to get a proper consensus on enforcing it as a sanction, I suggest we pick up exactly here next time, if this issue returns to ANI; I hope it won't, but fear it almost certainly will. If TRM genuinely hounds or Medeis brings a frivolous ANI, discussion next time should center from the start on a TBAN solution of some sort, since it is abundantly clear that the IBAN is generally ineffectual and has only become a means of exacerbating and prolonging this conflict. Snow talk 22:47, 7 January 2015 (UTC) Oppose Medeis is pretty active at ITN. My view, as an ITN regular, is that on the whole she is a valuable contributer there (as is TRM). I'm not convinced this is the way to go. I'd be more inclined to opt for the alternative course of ending the IBAN (which I tend to think has done more harm than good) and just blocking for any sufficiently problematic actions by either party. Neljack (talk) 22:42, 7 January 2015 (UTC) That might work too. Might even be more appropriate, given neither of them actually has a problem with the topic area (which is what TBANs are usually reserved for). Problem is, last time there was a block (against TRM), Medeis and Bugs actually requested it be lifted (despite hosting concurrent threads to get such an administrative action) and no lasting improvement of the situation resulted. If blocks are utilized, they will need to be escalating blocks that are not reversed without serious cause. Otherwise the issue will persist, clearly. Snow talk 22:56, 7 January 2015 (UTC) Support any relevant form of topic ban that affects both parties. All editors should contribute productively to Wikipedia and those contributions may be made in various ways. Even if one editor who had made great contribution to WP came into conflict with an editor that had done relatively little, this should not be a reason to favour one editor over another. The issues here are guidelines and right behaviours. The IBAN can be dropped and, if genuinely errant behaviour is exhibited in regard to NPA, CIVIL, wasting editor time, etc. then heavy penalties may be applied. GregKaye 20:40, 9 January 2015 (UTC) Oppose I don't comment too much at ITN (I nominate stuff way more than I comment/vote) although I do read over a lot of the comments. I believe that although Medeis sometimes makes inane and erroneous remarks, her input at ITN is definitely quite valuable, and her banishment from ITN would be quite a disservice. Having said that, I do believe they need to somehow be separated from associating with each other, as this has gone on far too long. Andise1 (talk) 04:24, 10 January 2015 (UTC) Andise1 the purpose of a WP:IBAN is "to stop a conflict between two or more editors that cannot be otherwise resolved from getting out of hand and disrupting the work of others." If you want to see disrupting the work of others then look at the above thread. This is all about a set of quotation marks and an innocuous reference to something Mendeis had said. If Mendeis cannot point to any wrong being done to the point where a block/ban is appropriate and if Mendeis is happy to initiated this type of disruption with administration then a logical solution would be for Mendeis to take a temporary step back from topic area. At present there is no possibility of reconciliation because an interaction ban is in place. GregKaye 06:30, 10 January 2015 (UTC) Oppose per Greg's compelling reasoning. Legacypac (talk) 06:35, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

IBAN request (Users Baseball Bugs and The Rambling Man)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I would like to ask that the interaction ban between me and The Rambling Man be ended, effective on the anniversary of its imposition, of which I'm not sure of the date, but I think it would be about January 15. [It appears to have been January 4, 2014.] The discussion a month ago, and here currently, indicates that I can work harmoniously with the editor in furtherance of Wikipedia's goals. Thank you for your kind consideration. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:27, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Erm, The Rambling Man (talk · contribs), this will not really work unless it's a mutual request - so your comments on this proposal are invited here. Ncmvocalist (talk) 13:30, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

I thought it was nothing to do with the participants, someone above has clearly stated it's a community-based sanction so it should be for the community to decide. Frankly there seems to be nothing to discuss between the two of us, no issues until the double-teaming starts up again. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:24, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

The community should hear your opinion. If both parties say they can get along, the IBAN should be lifted. Bugs, will you agree not to get involved in any dispute between TRM and Medeis? I think that's what TRM wants to hear. Jehochman ^Talk 19:34, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Well the irony is that Medeis notified Bugs of this discussion, he stated he'd rather not get involved and then waded in, up to his neck. So no, I don't think that'll be possible. As I said, the double-team are back in force, using all methods, including off-wiki communications and emails to admins etc to further the cause. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:24, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

TRM, do you have any evidence to support your accusations of off-wiki collaboration this time, or is this more of the same policy-violating speculation of a nefarious conspiracy against you that we've seen you make repeatedly against the two of them (and indeed many others who call your conduct into question after getting sucked into the gravity-well of drama the three of you generate between you) in past discussions here and elsewhere? Because if you don't have any evidence to support these notions, we are well past time for these accusations to stop; such accusations are not to be made without significant evidence, and are considered a personal attack under policy when they are -- and this is far from the first time this has been pointed out to you. Snow talk 21:56, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Oh good. More walls of text. I can't be bothered to find it but yes, Medeis has mentioned in the past that she has emailed, at the very least, Bishonen in regard to this. You go find it. It is, however, entirely irrelevant to this complaint. I look forward to another 2,500 characters in response. But note, I won't be continuing with this discussion, as I mentioned above. This response is purely to note that, once again, the bandwagon is rolling and you're going to make it a thousand times wordier than it ever needed to be. You are also someone who is desperate to see me blocked/banned etc, so I'm not all surprised to see you here, courtesy of a "note" from Medeis. I hope you view her transgressions in an equitable fashion, but I very much doubt you will. Do your worst, but please, spare the community your endless ramblings (ironic!!). The Rambling Man (talk) 22:11, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

See, this is rather exactly what I'm talking about. You've clearly (and I suspect strategically, based on similar behaviour in the previous two ANI's on your conduct) misinterpreted the behaviour I was referencing as a violation of our civility, assume good faith, and no personal attacks standards. Medeis, as any other editor, is well within her rights to discreetly contact an administrator about the behaviour of another editor. For you to accuse her of doing that is not a personal attack on your part, because it is not a policy violation or behavioural issue for her to be making that contact.

What I asked of you (clearly and un-ambiguously) was that you either provide proof of this supposed conspiracy to get you banned (which supposedly includes many bad-faith activities and policy violations) or that you just stop making these accusations against anyone you think doesn't like you. The members of this alleged conspiracy grow with every ANI filing or contentious discussion you are involved with, of which there are no shortage. In your head (or at least your explicit accusations), I and numerous other editors became members of this plot literally immediately upon meeting you, simply because we had the audacity to point out that your tone towards another group of editors had grown uncivil and antagonistic. From that point on, you made no secret of the fact that you viewed each of us (despite having just met you) as members of this conspiracy and that you could dismiss our concerns about your behaviour accordingly, just as you did in the post I am responding to now. The truly inane part is that I got added into the conspiracy for telling you that it was inappropriate to accuse others of being a part of it.  :/

Now you can continue to frame any oversight of your actions as "walls of text" simply because it tends to (by necessity) become rather drawn out, but I'm pretty sure that the experienced contributors of ANI can see that discussion for what it really is: walls of links. Links that are only barely adequate to summarize a long history of you blowing your (incredibly short) fuse, accusing others of bad-faith behaviour without a shred of evidence, finding ways to try to side-step community sanctions that have already been leveled against you, and generally trampling all over the project's most central (and least negotiable) behavioural policies.

Now you may wish to try to suggest that I'm here because of Medeis' message (which was unsolicited and unnecessary, as I had already seen this thread), but you'll note that she left that message yesterday and despite the fact that I've been actively editing, I never commented here until I saw you begin to violate WP:NPA again. Because frankly I have zero interest in your vitriolic and frequently petty little feud with her and Bugs (aside from the fact that it incessantly burdens ANI). Medeis had every opportunity to speak up about whether she felt you were hounding her in the last ANI, but she let herself get intimated into staying quiet due to the threat of a mutual topic ban for both of you from the reference desks -- this after filing the previous ANI herself -- so she can live with the consequences of that decision as far as I'm concerned. Though, for the record, I think you clearly were hounding her, and if you insist, I'll provide the diffs to show why. But my concern is not with the conflict between the three of you, but rather with incivility and personal attacks in general, which is why I only commented once those issues became germane again. The fact that you happened to be the one engaging in those activities is not on me or any other editor who might choose to take issue with them, so you can just shelve your "bandwagon" comments along with your conspiracy theories.

But given that even my two-sentence long post above was dismissed by you as a wall of text, I'll distill this down into a bite-size message that is as small as I can possibly make it: WP:C, WP:NPA & WP:AGF; read them and adhere to them or leave the project. Those are your options. Snow talk 23:53, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

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Note: A discussion about Medeis and TRM originally followed the above and prompted the following request for closure. The discussion was refactored into the subsection #Medeis/TRM Discussion since it was not dependent on the above discussion. --RAN1 (talk) 06:34, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

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(Comment from uninvolved editor) There's no headway on the IBAN on TRM/Bugs to be seen here, this should probably be closed. --RAN1 (talk) 03:47, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Go ahead. I might ask again in a month or so. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:25, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

I agree with BBB and User:RAN1, the entirety of the above should be closed, and BBB should be allowed to ask separately for a removal of the ban between himself and TRM if he wishes. This assumption that BBB and I are joined at the hip (we disagree on almost everything) has been most pernicious, and the above Shining-like maze of text unhelpful to anyone. μηδείς (talk) 21:29, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

"BBB should be allowed to ask separately for a removal of the ban between himself and TRM if he wishes." Uh, that's exactly what this thread is. That's presumably eactly why Bugs opened a new thread instead of making a subsection in the above discussion, which you filed. This thread was meant to be about his request only, but after I asked TRM not to begin to engage in conspiracy theory personal attacks again, you chimed in and the thread quickly became about the issues between you and TRM, same as the one above. But RAN1 saw the need to disentangle the issues and refactored all discussion that followed after your involvement into the thread above, so this thread really has nothing to do with you any more, aside from addressing TRM's accusations of collusion between you and Bugs. Mind you, this thread is good-to-go for archiving at any point, I think, since no one seems to have any interest in commenting further and Bugs has given his blessing to defer the issue of revisiting his IBAN with TRM. But nowhere here is there an implication that you and Bugs are attached at the hip (except in TRM's implication of conspiracy, but he has been advised not to repeat and he's now been disengaged from both this thread and the above one for days now). Snow talk 00:19, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Again, this entire series of threads should be closed per the multiple suggestions above. Comments about what this thread 'is' are entirely bollixed after RAN1 redacted the series, and posted mine and other peoples' comments under headings we did not create or post under. The original discussion is moot and no longer exists. The current discussion is falsified, and should immediately be closed. It does not represent what the participants actually posted in their original contexts.

Please close this immediately, per myself, RAN1, BBB and others. μηδείς (talk) 02:10, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

RAN1 didn't redact anything -- all he did was move a section of comments concerning your conflict with TRM from this thread (which concerns Bugs and TRM). He left the section itself unaltered and intact; all of those comments occur in the same order they were originally posted in, without any change to attribution or formatting. All that has changed is what thread they can be found under. Refactoring in this manner was completely appropriate to the circumstances, so that, in the event this thread was archived, valuable discussion relevant to the above thread would not be moved as well, an effect that was entirely beneficial. I'm sorry Medeis, but even if I felt empowered to, I wouldn't close these discussions at this time. I'm sure they probably will be closed in short order, but it's not going to be done at your request. You don't get to post endless ANIs about these issues and then hastily have them closed whenever they seem to be taking a turn that makes you nervous; its very transparent when you spend days demanding that action be taken and then suddenly when there's a proposal to establish a TBAN against you, you want all discussion shut down immediately. And given that you've stated more than once in recent posts that you will continue to bring this issue to ANI if you continue to feel harassed (when the consensus seems to be that you overreacted in the case of posting the above thread, though maybe only in that case), we don't have much motivation to close this discussion, do we? Why shut it down just so we can wait for the next complaint in a few days/weeks, starting over from scratch, rather than trying to find a lasting solution now, finally?

Look, I wouldn't panic, it seems these discussions are destined to pewter out soon same as the last...what...SEVEN on this issue? But I don't think anyone's going to close it at your request, under these circumstances. Snow talk 05:43, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

I am also curious to know how your comments here are not a violation of the IBAN. GoldenRing (talk) 06:56, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

TRM accused her and Bugs of conspiring in an off-wiki effort to get him banned, something he's done quite a bit of lately. Medeis was partially responding to that. Medeis also was away for a couple of days and may not originally have realized that this was a an altogether separate thread (originally the thread was just titled "IBAN request", and the clarifier was only added after Medies had returned and responded). Her comments picked up exactly where he left off, so I suspect she thought at the time she was just replying at the end of current discussion, without realizing Bugs was trying to make a request separate from the original discussion. I don't think she was meaning to get in the middle of the Bugs/TRM issue, but separating those issues was exactly why her comments (and the responses which followed it) were refactored into the above thread, under the section "Medeis/TRM Discussion". Snow talk 07:12, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Fair enough. I've also been away and missed the stage in the discussion where these two threads were mingled. GoldenRing (talk) 08:46, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

In order to avoid confusion, it would have been better to put the text in a separate sub-section of the previous section, labeled "moved from following separate section" or something like that. As regards Medeis and him/her, I don't know what Medeis' "gender" is, so I just say "Medeis" instead of a pronoun. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:47, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Neither do I, with a certainty, but a great number of editors use "she" without correction from Medeis herself, so I've tended to assume it was accurate -- though to be fair, I don't know if it ultimately originates from any confirmation from Medeis. How I wrote an entire post without realizing I was using masculine pronouns, I don't know; it could be because the Greek phonology and orthography of her username/sig always remind me of King Midas. Anyway, your suggestion on noting where the refactoring starts in the above thread makes sense; I've added such a notation, complete with a diff for the unlikely event anyone cares to see where the section once resided. Snow talk 11:41, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Not that it's relevant here, but medeis means "no one" in Greek. Technically it's masculine in gender, but it was intentionally chosen because I had a rather disturbing stalker when I previously posted under my real name. Given I am quite queer and a former typesetter for Christopher Street Magazine I can hardly object the other way or one. That being said, I did not post under the heading this "TRM v Medeis" section now has, and I suggest the whole multithread be closed since it is serving no purpose other than to invite further useless comment. My sole desire has been an end to pestering, and this entire multithread seems to have been an invitation to pestering. μηδείς (talk) 02:50, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

I actually did recall getting the impression somewhere that you identify as transgendered (though without indication as to which was your biological sex, nor what your preferred gender identity, if any, is), but without being able to remember for sure that it was from the horses mouth, I didn't think it was my place to repeat that impression here. As I said, I've just tended to go with a feminine pronoun set as it's what most everyone uses for you and I've never seen you object. Glad to know for certain that I'm not giving offense in any event. As to the thread, commentary seems to have stopped, so I expect archiving may come at any time, though I am disappointing to see discussion come to a close yet again without any form of stable resolution. In the meantime, is there something in particular about the title of that subsection which you do not like? I believe I've explained to the best of my ability why that section was refactored, from necessity, and that the discussion itself was not in any way altered, but if there's some reason you object to your comments being in a section with that title, we can perhaps alter it (since it was added after the fact and no significant comments have been made to it by new commenters since). Snow talk 06:22, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I messed this page up by accident!

Hi.

I was just on the Wikipedia page for the bodybuilder Flex Lewis. I noticed that under the competitions section there some missing completions. So I went to add them in and after I clicked save page something went wrong. The page is now displayed as dispersed lines of text pertaining only to a certain section of the article, all the information is there but it just doesn't get displayed. Please understand I did not mean this as a form of vandalism I was simply trying to update the page! Please help!

The link: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flex_Lewis

"32.210.191.72 (talk) 03:41, 9 January 2015 (UTC)"

You could have just reverted. Which is what I did. You could try again, only hit "preview" first, rather than "save", to be sure it works (or not). ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:54, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Also, I went to Flex Lewis. I don't know what "en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki" is. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:55, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

For the record, the formatting problem was the result of an unclosed (and unnecessary) <gallery> tag added at the very top of the article. I'm not sure how or why that got there, but that's what caused the page to be reformatted into a series of small squares. Meanwhile, en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki is the mobile version of the project. Squeamish Ossifrage (talk) 03:58, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

That happened with this edit, presumably a screwup of some kind. That's actually pretty funny, turning the entire page into a "gallery". But is it possible that there's something whacko with the mobile version of the software? Like maybe it generated that "gallery" automatically somehow? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:11, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Technical question: The IP here is the older style, while the edits to the article are by IP's in the expanded style. Are those expanded IP's standard for mobile phones, or is it certain carriers? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:56, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

With regards to the first question, there doesn't seem to be anything in the mobile version of WP that should allow this. I just checked it on my phone. Perhaps the IP had copied the <gallery> tag from somewhere else. On Android at least, if you hold a spot down in a field that you can type, it brings up a paste pop up option. Blackmane (talk) 05:03, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

I just did some poking about. With regards to your second question, it looks like that IPv6 address is in a range registered to SNET-FCC - Southern New England Telephone Company and SNET America, Inc. Blackmane (talk) 05:07, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

And that's consistent with the location of the OP's IP. Makes sense. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:13, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

[Digression: confusion with IP addresses and mobile devices is one reason why I think Wikipedia should only be edited by registered users have a traceable track of contributions and who have a fixed point of reference for conversation. GregKaye 07:14, 9 January 2015 (UTC)]

Good luck with that. They'll allow that around the time pigs start flying. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:41, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

How are editors supposed to have a track of contributions if only editors with a track of contributions are allowed to edit? It precludes any new editor from being able to edit and Wikipedia is not sustainable without a continual influx of new editors who share their knowledge and experience to enhance Wikipedia articles. Every new editor has a learning curve, sometimes lasting months, other times years. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 22:39, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

I think what GregKaye means is that registered editors build up a track of contributions whereas unregistered editors using changing IP addresses don't. Squinge (talk) 23:10, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Note that the IP didn't say they used the mobile site to make the edit. They copied the mobile site link here, which may have lead some people to believe this was the case but I suspect this is incorrect. Firstly AFAIK, any edits from the mobile site should always be tagged by the wikimedia engine, similar to [155]. Secondly, AFAIK it's still not possible to edit from the mobile site without using an account. Definitely whenever I try to edit an I'm not logged it, it forces me to including when I tried just now. As was established, the edit [156] came from an IP and was not tagged. It's possible the edit was from the wikipedia app, but I'm fairly sure these are tagged as well. If the edit was from the bog standard edit interface, it's relatively easier to accidentally add the gallery tag. For example, if you have the advanced menu option, click on the picture between "insert" and the redirect arrow. This will add a bit more including a closure tag, but it's possible the OP realised these are something wrong and deleted the rest without deleting the opening tag. It's also possible you can add a gallery tag in some other way. Nil Einne (talk) 11:56, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

User:Tanishqsh Removing deletion templates (AfD and Speedy), interfereing with an AfD, interfereing with an SPI

• [157] 2015-01-08T13:23:35 User:Tanishqsh removed Speedy Deletion Template from Captive Of Thoughts
• [158] 2015-01-10T04:59:33 User:Tanishqsh removed Afd Template from Reet Sharma
• [159] 2015-01-10T04:59:02 User:Tanishqsh blanked Afd for Reet Sharma
• [160] 2015-01-10T04:47:25 User:Tanishqsh removed text from SPI
• [161] 2015-01-10T04:49:03 User:Tanishqsh removed text from SPI

Also see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Tanishqsh  ^B E _C K ^Y _S A ^{Y L} E _S  05:33, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

I've given him a 31-hour break from editing WP, even before considering the puppetry allegation. I'm a bit tired and otherwise preoccupied, so I invite somebody else to consider the latter. Any admin proposing to extend the block (e.g. to indefinite) needn't consult me about this. -- Hoary (talk) 05:55, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

• His file uploads look like copyright violations too, so I've nominated them for deletion at Commons. Squinge (talk) 12:30, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

  Actually, no, I'm wrong about that - I've been discussing them with him at Commons and he's a professional photographer and they really are his pictures. Squinge (talk) 14:59, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Evaluative diversity

Could admins familiar with copyvio and COI please have a look at Evaluative diversity? History:

1. Text was added to neurodiversity (an article in the autism suite) about evaluative diversity by Langchri that was based on a number of primary sources and some that did not even mention the term neurodiversity,[162] so I removed it. See talk page discussion.
2. Upon examining evaluative diversity, I found the same issue with primary sources and sources that didn't mention that topic. I do not have time to clean up that article, and tagged it.[163] See talk page discussion.
3. Langchri removed the tags, saying "moved to talk", but with no followup on talk.
4. Subsequently, in reading the talk page, I encountered a post from December 2013 from Langchri, stating that another article had been published first, which was the source for most of the Wikipedia article. So, I went searching for that article on the internet.
5. I found a personal website hosting what appears to be that article,[164]Christopher Santos-Lang. It is written by a Christopher Santos-Lang (Langchri??), and our article copies the structure. So I tagged the article copyvio and raised the issue of WP:COI on talk.[165]
6. IP 165, active at that article, removed the copyvio tag, saying it was published first on Wikipedia, but the talk page of our article indicates otherwise. That IP resolves to Madison: see website above on Christopher Santos-Lang.

So, this is above my payscale. If Christopher Santos-Lang is Langchri, and if the article was first published elsewhere by him, what is done here about copyvio or coi?? I'm thinking it might be an OTRS issue, and if permission is released for the content, the copyvio tag can be removed, leaving the COI and sourcing concerns, but I really don't know. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:37, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Help! The evidence that copyright was not infringed seems pretty clear, but we need an administrator to actually remove the copyright tag. It would also be really nice if editors who believe they have encountered an original thesis would specify that thesis on the Talk page and ask the community to shape it or identify the particular passage in the cited sources which support it (rather than just leave page-level tags claiming to have discovered that sources are generally bad). I believe I can help improve this article, but it already cites sources throughout, many of which include both primary and secondary research (e.g., scientific papers which include literature review sections), so the path forward at this point requires shaping specific theses to match the cited sources. I would appreciate any advice on how to keep the editing actionable. Langchri (talk) 03:02, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Pinging @Moonriddengirl: as copyright is her specialty. Blackmane (talk) 12:37, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

I hope MRG examines the whole mess, because there has been more info on article talk, and now Langchri says the material was published first on Wikipedia, then on Springer, so I don't know who owns the rights or how to fix this mess, which now includes the possible issues to be sorted of WP:COI, WP:USERNAME, WP:MEAT, and WP:COPYVIO. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:47, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Springer puts the issue to bed at [166] when they date the publication to September 2014. Copyright is not a problem, as it looks like the content was here first. I'm not sure I understand the COI issue. Is he citing himself? We do permit that, in moderation of course, as per WP:SELFCITE. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 14:04, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

I don't agree with Moonriddengirl's analysis. There is ambiguity as to when Langchri assigned copyright to Springer, as there is a lag between manuscript submission and copyright assignment, and publication. If he posted here first (meaning he licensed the content to Wikimedia) then Springer has to include reference to WP's license in the book (which would mean withdrawing it and republishing it with the amendment); if he assigned the copyright to Springer before he posted here, then he didn't have the right to grant the license to Wikimedia, and our content infringes Springer. We have no way of knowing what happened. The most elegant solution would be for us to assume he assigned to Springer first, and to treat the content here as COPYVIO. Otherwise we have to tangle with Springer. Jytdog (talk) 15:37, 10 January 2015 (UTC) (striking, bad analysis Jytdog (talk) 23:45, 10 January 2015 (UTC))

Moonriddengirl, we don't know if he's citing himself; he hasn't said. We also don't know if WP:USERNAME is an issue (misleading). What we do know is a) there is a large amount of original research going on in articles edited by Langchri, and Langchri extensively adds content (to many articles) based on Christopher Santos-Lang sources. That is, Langchri appears to be using Wikipedia to publish original ideas, and he often cites Christopher Santos-Lang as well. If he is citing himself, the work does not seem to conform to WP:SELFCITE.

And there is the Madison IP issue. [167]

I am interested in understanding the copyvio concern per Jytdog's followup, for my own education about copyvio; could you please expand? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:59, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Hi, User:SandyGeorgia. I've explained at the talk page, but in a nutshell there is no such thing as "WP's license." The owner of the license of content on Wikipedia is the contributor who adds the content. Contributors are within their rights to submit content they have published on Wikipedia elsewhere under any terms they like. If Springer has an issue with Langchri having published a version of some material he submitted to them under liberal license elsewhere, that's between Langchri and Springer and has nothing to do with us. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 22:04, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Moonriddengirl, it looks like the entire evaluative diversity article is being reduced in a very big way so quickly that it is difficult to believe the edits are being made with care. If there were no copyright issue under investigation I suppose I would be asking administrators whether the page is being vandalized, and what I should do about it. Is there a way for me to confirm that these deletions are being imposed with administrator authority? Am I free to rebuild the deleted sections (hopefully better, but covering the same content) without COPYVIO concerns? Langchri (talk) 22:46, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

User:Langchri, what you're seeing in the article is normal editing. User:Jytdog is not an administrator, and even if you are editing an article alongside an administrator, they are simply acting as editors in most cases. As Wikipedia:Administrators notes, administrators are part of the community like other editors. What I would recommend you do here is engage in dispute resolution, discussing changes to the article on the talk page and reaching out to the broader community as necessary to reach agreement that content is within policy. There are no demonstrated copyright problems with the content, although I do have to caution that while there is no reason you cannot restore content that is common to the Springer article that was published here before (assuming consensus supports it), you can't add content that is published in the Springer article that wasn't already on Wikipedia prior to that publication. Apologies if that's convoluted, but at that point we need a verifiable license release such as those described at WP:DCM. If you have any more questions about that, you're very welcome to stop by my talk page. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 22:59, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

True, I am not an admin! And I am striking my comments above here, as I did on the article talk page. It still comes to a question of whether Christopher Santos-Lang/Langchr (again assuming they are one) assigned to Springer before he uploaded to WP. If he did, he didn't have the right to grant Wikimedia the license. If he uploaded here first, he probably has issues with Springer and those issues have nothing to do with us. That's what it comes down to. I guess the simplest thing for us to take it on good faith that he owned the copyright when he added the content here. We have no good reason not to believe him.Jytdog (talk) 23:45, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks again, MRG; although not at all intuitive, it is clearer now. As I understand it now, when Langchri added the content over a year ago, it failed WP:V because it had not been published anywhere. Langchri was advancing an original thesis on Wikipedia. That the information was subsequently published, and if there's a problem it is between Langchri and Springer, or Christopher Santos-Lang and Springer (we don't know, since Langchri hasn't addressed/answered on potential COI or USERNAME issue) is a separate issue from the original research, synth, and off-topic problem that is pervasive in Langchri's contributions, but it is evidence of the earlier same issue as with his current editing across numerous articles (where Langchri cites Christopher Santos-Lang) that the content added in 2013 was advancing an unpublished (then) thesis.

Original research and synthesis is the problem that continues in his work, and is how this came to my attention: I monitor neurodiversity as it is part of the autism suite, of which both autism and Asperger syndrome are featured articles.

Langchri, the cleaning up of the article (thank you, Jytdog, because I wouldn't do it, and there are half a dozen articles citing same) is unrelated to the copyvio concern: it is because of the off-topic, original research, synthesis that is documented at both Talk:Neurodiversity and Talk:Evaluative diversity. [168] You take primary sources, completely unrelated to the topics, that don't even mention the topics, and draw conclusions from them: classic synth. At Neurodiversity, you took a primary source (fails WP:MEDRS) PMID 23418419, that mentions neither autism nor neurodiversity, and draw a conclusion from it. And this post indicates you don't understand that Wikipedia is not a place for advocacy or advancing unpublished agendas or theses.

And I disagree that the editing is proceeding without care: there is still well documented synthesis in the article, that Jytdog hasn't apparently gotten to yet, as he seems to be processing from the top down. Separately, it can be said: the articles are indecipherable gobbledygook, as raised months ago by another editor. I suggest that you consider carefully whether you have a COI, and whether you understand WP:V and WP:OR before re-adding text. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:25, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

User Zaczac178 and images

Hi,

I came across a user uploading several images (under licences date years ago with images from this season). Images seem to be copyright. Dont know were to turn so went here.

The images are:

• File:Falcao MU15.jpeg most likely from mirror.co.uk and added in this diff
• File:Di María MU.jpg most likely from football.co.uk and added in this diff
• File:Luke Shaw england.jpg most likely from [169] and added in this diff
• File:Steve Smith 2015.jpg most likely from [170] and added in this diff

And those are the only ones I looked at, I am sure they are all the same. Could someone take a look at it? QED237 (talk) 01:36, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

I've nuked all their uploads as blatant copyvios. MER-C 01:52, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

@MER-C: Great. Thanks! Lets hope the editor dont continue and update more. In that case a strong warning and/or block may be only way to stop him/her. QED237 (talk) 01:55, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Now the editor has continued. Claims to be his own images.

• File:Joe burns2015.jpg most likely from [171] and added in this diff
• File:S.mata'utai.jpg most likely from [172] and added in this diff
• File:M.MarshODI.jpg most likely from [173] (press on ODI above image/player info) and added in this diff

The second also reported here by an other user. QED237 (talk) 23:22, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Anyone please help, I ping @MER-C: who responded last time. QED237 (talk) 23:23, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

I have deleted these three and issued a custom-made final warning on their talk page. I will watch -- Diannaa (talk) 02:15, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Leighton Hall, Powys

Could you please look at the repeated reversions to the text and removal of the standard infobox to the “Leighton Hall, Powys” entry. All of the information that has been removed is readily available on other sites on the internet as well as on Google earth, and can hardly be considered a security threat. Tyssil Tyssil (talk) 23:17, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

I agree that posting publicly available info should not represent a security threat, and have restored a previous version of the page. If the owners of the building need any of the content removed for security reasons, they should contact the OTRS team. -- Diannaa (talk) 01:54, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

I performed a Google search and couldn't find any mention of a recent robbery. Granted it was cursory so I would be interested to know if there is any validity to the edit summary. MarnetteD|Talk 02:17, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Legal Threats from User:Wikiuser124

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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User:Wikiuser124 has threaten legal action on my talk page. [174]. - McMatter ^(talk)/_(contrib) 04:32, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Liana K vandalism and AFD

There's an recent incident where User:MBPLY, a clear single purpose account (see Special:Contributions/MBPLY), has carried out several acts of unambiguous vandalism and linking to an attack site ([175], [176], [177]) against the Liana K article (a BLP article), and then started an AFD to delete the article. So far, the three responses in the AFD (including my own) note that the article should be kept and that the AFD is without legitimate basis. Given the circumstances, that the AFD was started by a clear vandal to a BLP page, I think the AFD should be closed. Also, even though I have only just left a warning on their talk page, I think that the user should be blocked from editing the Liana K article entirely, if not be subject to even stronger sanctions. Iamcuriousblue (talk) 02:33, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

I've closed the AfD as keep. I came close to indeffing the user, but I decided to wait to see if they stop (they have a final warning).--Bbb23 (talk) 06:25, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Redrose64 is stalking me over "forumshopping"

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Resolved

Redrose64 is stalking me over "forumshopping", i posted on the template talkpage and nothing happened, how do i supposed to get help then if i dont request it on users which has the knowledge to fix the problem because if i did an edit request on the template talkpage i will be required to say that i want y changed to x, and i dont know that! so if some users dont want to help me i have the right to ask others Dannis243 (talk) 16:35, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

All i wanted is a fix to infobox political party, after alot of effort no one is helping me Dannis243 (talk) 16:41, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm not stalking you: after more than five years around here, I've accumulated quite a long watchlist. In the last week or so, I've noticed you posting basically the same message to several user talk pages. When you took it to WP:VPT (which is a page where I assist often), and I spotted the same two images that you'd used elsewhere, I decided it was time for comment. Prior to doing so, I reviewed some of the user talk page threads that I had previously noticed, and it didn't take long before I found that you'd been advised that the best place for discussion was Template talk:Infobox political party, despite which, you continued to post to various user talk pages, and WP:AN (twice). This multiplicity of threads, if not WP:FORUMSHOPPING, then is certainly against WP:MULTI.

Advice has been offered: but it is you who is ignoring it. --Redrose64 (talk) 17:00, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

If you are going to make allegations about other editors, you ought at least to provide a diff or a link to the behavior about which you are complaining. I guess that this may refer to WP:VPT#please help? --David Biddulph (talk) 16:54, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Redrose64&diff=prev&oldid=641885863 Dannis243 (talk) 16:59, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Not only does User:Redrose64 have the right, like all other editors, to decide what stays on their own Talk Page, you were also being offered advice in good faith. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:07, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

The OP, from the start of his work last summer, has been obsessing over the spacing in an infobox, as noted in Talk:Party of the Swedes (and farther up this page, too). Whatever the reason for the extra spacing, one would think the OP could fix it himself. One way to do it without immediately affecting everyone else would be to create a scratch copy from the appropriate point in the history of Template:Infobox political party and make sure it works, rather than fiddling with the "production" version. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:27, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

As I understand it, it's a problem of visual alignment as well as spacing. I'm currently giving the OP the benefit of the doubt and assuming that they want the infobox to have a clean and professional appearance for everyone, as opposed to simple self-interest. I've noticed that people who have higher-than-average standards in matters of form (usually because they notice such things more than the average person does) often have a rough time of it on en-wiki, and I think that's wrong and bad for the project over all. ‑‑Mandruss ☎ 17:47, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm not that good with HTML. What change was made to the template which altered its appearance/ ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:53, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

There's been no change to the Infobox political party template. The problem is that the {{Infobox political party/seats}} template is a bit too tall to fit nicely onto the | seats1 = line of the Infobox political party template. There's no point asking random people to help with this problem, as most do not have the underlying template chops to help. The place to post is Template talk:Composition bar, or Wikipedia:Village pump (technical). -- Diannaa (talk) 18:00, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

OK, I see. Then something was changed in the template. So he could create his own copy of both the infobox and the template. He was previously advised to go to VPT. Apparently they couldn't help him. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:15, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

It's hard to get help without a clear idea of what the problem is. The best bet is to post first at Template talk:Composition bar, and if no one responds there, try WP:VPT. I will try to get help -- Diannaa (talk) 18:28, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Okay, I have posted at Template talk:Composition bar and pinged a couple of people with template skills. -- Diannaa (talk) 18:35, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

• I don't see this as being a discussion I need to be involved in, yet I was summoned here anyways. The only thing that is needed here is the OP spending some time playing with the |style= parameters of the sandbox version of infobox that is the cause of the spacing. I already explained in great detail why (strictly technically speaking - despite not knowing if there was an actual discussion where there was a consensus for it to be that way) the spacing is the way it is. I have way too many much more important projects I'm working on (like debugging why xtools is constantly locking up and crashing) to invest any time into researching and fixing this particular issue. I wish the OP the best of luck. Please ping me from here if you need me further. Happy editing! — {{U|Technical 13}} ^{(e • t • c)} 21:34, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

@Dannis243: You can also try adding {{help me}} to the infobox talk page. GoingBatty (talk) 22:39, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

A user has now implemented a solution, and the infobox for Party of the Swedes is now nicely aligned. Thanks to everybody who took the time to look at this problem. -- Diannaa (talk) 22:57, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Resubmitting Case Archived by mistake without any discussion

Re-opening SPI of Derwick Associates activity

Greetings all,

I believe there is need to review the closed SPIs into the Derwick Associates pages. In light of recent findings it is safe to assume the original suspected sock masters of each investigation are not correct. Nonetheless there is substantial evidence that several of the users named in the overall investigations are connected. Below are these previous SPIs:

• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/FergusM1970
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Majogomezsz

Despite the overwhelming behavioral evidence (no edit overlap, the same edits being made, similar edit summary wording between several accounts, an abundance of single-purpose accounts, etc) and even a CheckUser discovery that some of the accounts were linked, the admin believed the accounts were not linked. They also stated that its not fair to assume someone with a differing view is necessarily being paid to make edits. But given that Fergus has openly admitted he was a paid advocate for Derwick (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive867#Full_disclosure) and that he was hired by a PR firm (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:FergusM1970) we now know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Derwick hired at least one PR agency to protect its image.

There is a ton of behavioral evidence to suggest many of these accounts are linked. IP addressed might be harder to prove but a simple VPN is not that hard to set up. If I were running a PR firm that was contracted out by a very large and wealthy, albeit legally troubled, company to protect its online image including on Wikipedia, I would invest in a VPN. Its troubling that no one can consider this; I use them for personal reasons sometime.

I am willing to contribute any needed evidence to support my claims here, but I hope the knowledge that Derwick paid for a PR firm to edit this page is enough evidence to perk others interest in this incident. Righteousskills (talk) 02:15, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

User Poeticbent is disclosing IP location information about an editor

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On the CheckUser Sockpuppet investigations/WKS Śląsk Wrocław request, Poeticbent is disclosing material that is revealing personal data about an editor. In an edit dated (cur | prev) 20:43, 10 January 2015‎ Poeticbent (talk | contribs)‎ . . (9,063 bytes) (+416)‎ Poeticbent disclosed the location of my IP address E-960. This is completely uncalled for, and goes against WP rules. Please take immediate action before this gets out of hand. --E-960 (talk) 17:43, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

If you edit without logging in you are revealing your IP address yourself, and the geolocation of IP addresses is public knowledge and easily discovered. Squinge (talk) 18:01, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

I log in under E-960, this also shows that I'm the NOT sockpuppet and as discussed above in the earlier section. User Poeticbent is acting in a hostile way against me just because of a simple content dispute. --E-960 (talk) 18:07, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Well, you've just edited logged out and confirmed where you are - you then logged in and resigned it, but it's still in the edit history. (I have no comment on the sockpuppet charge, but surely that can be resolved at the SPI itself rather than bringing it here too?) Squinge (talk) 18:12, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Heavy long term abuse by sock army.

For several months already, articles related to Uzbeks and to Tajiks have been under attack by a never-ending list of socks of a nationalist Uzbek. This time he calls himself KanishkaKagan and is again performing exactly the same kind of nationalist vandalism in infoboxes (inflating Uzbeks and deleting Tajiks) [178], [179] that he has already been doing under the names of Turan22, AlexUzb, YulbarsTiger, George$653, and Izzy.neon. As per WP:DUCK, I dare say thatO.Turani is also the same user. This has been going on for several months, and temporary protections and blocks do not really help as the user just continues to create new socks to repeat the same nationalist POV.Jeppiz (talk) 13:47, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

You are wrong at all I'm O.Turani an Uzbek from Afghanistan and all my edits are based on sources. I don't have any relation or contact with above mentioned users. It's better to say there is anti-Uzbek army probably origins from Iran vandalizing Uzbek Identity. User:O.Turani (talk) 14:05, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Absurdity, it you misbehave. I always on sources refer. You in my opinion HistoryOfIran? Tell me what relation has to Tajiks of Al-Biruni, Al-Khwarezmi and other great scientists? Yours faithfully KanishkaKagan KanishkaKagan (talk) 14:12, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

• Jeppiz, are you aware of WP:SPI? I recommend you go and file a case there, as that will help establish who is a sock and who isn't. Feel free to ask for help on my talk page if you need it :) Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 14:52, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Lukeno94, that's what I usually do (asking for as SPI]] but I took it here as it gets very tiresome to file requests and when the socks are banned, the user already has a few new socks ready to continue. It's an example of how a dedicated puppetmaster can impose his POV by creating enough socks. Creating an account takes much shorter time than filing an SPI, so those trying to keep tracks of the socks have to spend more than the puppetmaster does. I think it's a bit of a flaw in Wikipedia, actually. As I said, this has been going on for months on several uzbek-related articles. And it's not just keeping track of this user there, he also has "delightful" surprises like this one for people disagreeing [180].Jeppiz (talk) 15:11, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

• Correct; however, do they usually target the same articles over and over, or are they different each time? If it's the former, then you can file a RFPP request citing the sockpuppetry. Also, if CUs are able to confirm the accounts, then rangeblocks of the underlying IPs might be able to be applied. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 15:14, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

I filed an RFPP last time and it helped for a short time. However, the puppetmaster has around ten articles they target long term. PP is helpful against occasional vandals but does not do much against a dedicated puppet-master who carry on for months.Jeppiz (talk) 15:39, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

• If the master keeps coming back to the same articles over and over, particularly if BLP comes into play, then I think you have a good case for very long term protection, maybe even indefinite, if you present the evidence of how long the abuse has gone on for, and how quickly it started again after the previous protection(s) ended. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 16:52, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

• Update As a case in point, here is yet another account that obviously is the same user (performing exactly the same actions again, and accusing all others of "vandalism"). [181], [182]. It's clear that the user has a large number of low-activity socks. Honestly, what can we do? RFPP is no good as the user has a very large number of socks (here is just a small list of some of those blocked, but note that several socks of the same user is not include). The sockmaster can quite happily revert four times, as he's currently doing, with some of the socks, and normal users undoing it would risk being blocked for 3RR. Even if some of the socks are banned, it's obvious there are a large number out there.Jeppiz (talk) 16:57, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Do you really pay attention to my references? For example I believe [Temur] is Uzbek I have reason for this claim and provided reference about him to prove that he was Uzbek. 1rst his tribe is called Barlas, and Barlas is one of 92 tribes of Uzbeks. 2nd eveyone knows that his birth place is located in current Uzbekistan kish city, currently all the population of this city is native Uzbeks. Besides according to his own notes we can understand that his language was Uzbek dialect of Turkic language. So please do vandalize Uzbek historical figures. O.Turani (talk) 17:15, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

O.Turani, I said I wasn't sure about you. As for the others, I have absolutely no doubt that KanishkaKagan and Amir.Temur are just the current socks of Turan22 as they are performing exactly the same actions with the same words and the same summaries as the already blocked socks AlexUzb, YulbarsTiger, George$653, and Izzy.neon.Jeppiz (talk) 19:51, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

{{checkuser needed}} Jehochman ^Talk 16:58, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

I think it's best to create an SPI case if there are additional concerns. Mike V • Talk 17:47, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Best thing to do is to get the complete list up on an SPI so that we have a record that we can refer to next time. Then we can evaluate the pattern and decide if any further action (like protection) is needed, and a CU can determine whether rangelocks are plausible and so on. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:14, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

O.Turani has been blocked before for sockpuppeting. (See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/O.Turani/Archive) They have also repeatedly added unsourced claims that certain historical figures are Uzbeks to the Uzbek article. (See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Turan22/Archive) O.Turani did post saying that a source supported their claim that several Timurids were Uzbeks,[183], but the source directly contradicts that claim, say the Timurids were "rivals and opponents of the Uzbeks.[184] In spite of this,O.Turani has repeatedly added claims that the Timurids were Uzbeks.[185][186][187] [188] [189] [190] just like the blocked sockpuppets listed above. Edward321 (talk) 00:35, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

It is quite clear that O.Turani is not here to build an encyclopedia, since any statements regarding sockpuppetry, edit-warring, and the like garner a repetitious response consisting of, "... all my edits are based on sources". And yet O.Turani has never posted anything on the Uzbek talk page! Best to block/ban and protect the article(s) in question from disruption. --Kansas Bear (talk) 01:14, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

I have full respect to your idea but in case you want to write about others identity and history you should reall be careful. You should rely on sources that these people provide to you. I claim that Temurid are Uzbek because their origin is barlas tribe and Barlas is one of 92 tribes of Uzbeks. Edward321 states that Temurid and Uzbeks were rival, well it doesn't prove that they were not Uzbeks. Uzbek nation has big diversity by it's 92 tribe, in the past there was contests with each others. I give you a different example, the achaemenid and Median Empire was rival to each other do you consider the Medians non Iranian? The important issue here is the name of tribe which is Barlas if you ask from any Uzbek he/she states that Barlas and is Uzbek tribe. Besides we all know Mirza Abdul Qadir Bidel he is considered as Uzbek why? Because he is belong to Barlas tribe too. So I suggest you to be logical and do not try to conserve the facts. Also I'd like to say, whatever you try, generate violence, vandalize Uzbeks identity and history you will not achieve anything because Temurirds are Uzbeks and Vandalism cannot damage this fact. if you are considering sock users, then I'd like say that real sock is Edward321. Because he directly reverts my edits without discussing my references on talk page. You can check his edits on Uzbeks and Tajiks page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by O.Turani (talk • contribs) 05:22, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

O.Turani ^Talk 4:25, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

The large number of reverts to the article on Uzbeks by O.Turani show that he/she is edit-warring, with a variety of editors reverting him/her. The talk page history shows that O.Turani has not been discussing his/her edits on the talk page.-- Toddy1 (talk) 07:01, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Report made to Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring#User:O.Turani reported by User:Toddy1 (Result: ) since he/she continued to edit-war after receiving a warning.-- Toddy1 (talk) 16:32, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Comment: User has been blocked for two weeks for edit warring. Bjelleklang - talk 23:51, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

And less than 12 hours after O.Turani's block, an IP has restored their edit.[191] Already reported at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/O.Turani Edward321 (talk) 17:42, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

• I see no reason not to extend the block to indefinite. Wait, that's what I just did. If O.Turani wants to explain on their talk page how they are going to play along in the future, they are welcome to do so. Drmies (talk) 18:26, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Block evasion by Prisonermonkeys

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Resolved

I have found Prisonermonkeys to be evading a one month block implemented by administrator Anna Frodesiak through the use of an IP. IP 203.38.105.161 has been editing all the time through Prisonermonkeys' block and has self identified as Prisonermonkeys in the past. Tvx1 (talk) 18:58, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

I've reset the block to one month from today and hard-blocked the IP address to match. Thanks for the report. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:17, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

You're welcome. I just did what I thought was justified. Tvx1 (talk) 19:40, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

67.82.6.190

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I have tagged the ip 67.82.6.190 for vandalism. He has responded to put harassment on my talk page and continue to vandalise wikipedia. He has also been blanking sections of my talk page. He has also claimed that 'viruses' have caused him to be disruptive.TheMagikCow (talk) 19:59, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Ban proposal for User:Hum1969

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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On behalf of User:Alexhead8835, I suggest we propose to ban User:Hum1969, who edits and damages articles to public transportation in the Greater Toronto Area as per here. Any suggestions? 135.23.145.164 (talk) (c/o Alexhead8835 (talk)) 05:43, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure what this IP's game is. See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Hum1969 and see also this.--Bbb23 (talk) 05:50, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Isn't the user de facto banned what with having their main account indeffed and no hope of being unblocked? WP:BANBLOCKDIFF Some of our irritants might bask in the glow of a "banned" label. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 09:30, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

There is another account set up by him using this one: User:Acerdellrules1961. Can't you guys file the long term abuse report? 135.23.145.164 (talk) 16:05, 11 January 2015 (UTC) (c/o Alexhead8835 (talk))

I have reinstated this thread which was deleted by User:Acerdellrules1961 - presumably trying to cover his tracks - Arjayay (talk) 16:23, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Support - Guys, could we vote on the ban of User:Hum1969 from the English Wikipedia? I am fearing more socks are coming up. 135.23.145.164 (talk) 18:51, 11 January 2015 (UTC) (c/o Alexhead8835 (talk))

No formality necessary - User is de facto banned per WP:BANBLOCKDIFF and there is no reason to reward the behavior with a badge of "banned". I say this, having previously proposed the ban of a vandal and being told this very same thing, which made sense to me. WP:DNFTT Cyphoidbomb (talk) 19:52, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Comment - Despite this, A long-term abuse report could do. Otherwise, a topic ban could be easy. 135.23.145.164 (talk) 22:06, 11 January 2015 (UTC) (c/o Alexhead8835 (talk))

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Aknaqvi repeatedly removing speedy deletion templates from pages it created

• [192] User:Aknaqvi created Ali Kamal Naqvi
• [193] User:Aknaqvi removed Speedy Deletion Template from Ali Kamal Naqvi
• [194] User:Aknaqvi removed Speedy Deletion Template from Ali Kamal Naqvi
• [195] User:Aknaqvi was warned about removing speedy deletion templates
• [196] User:Aknaqvi was warned about removing speedy deletion templates
• [197] User:Aknaqvi removed Speedy Deletion Template from Ali Kamal Naqvi
• [198] User:Aknaqvi was warned about removing speedy deletion templates
• [199] User:Aknaqvi removed Speedy Deletion Template from Ali Kamal Naqvi
• [200] User:Aknaqvi created Bollywood chugly
• [201] User:Aknaqvi removed Speedy Deletion Template from Bollywood chugly

• [202] User:Aknaqvi was warned about removing speedy deletion templates — Preceding unsigned comment added by Becky Sayles (talk • contribs) 15:32, 8 January 2015‎ (UTC)
  • Just a reminder, a Wikipedia editor is not an "it". BMK (talk) 23:07, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
    • Unless it's a bot. Neuman, Alfred E (talk) 18:44, 9 January 2015 (UTC) (Sorry, but I just couldn't resist commenting)
      • Would a bot really create pages? Epicgenius (talk) 18:52, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
        • There's special software available for it, and bots have created literally millions of articles (in some cases based on the content of public-domain encyclopaedias, in other cases based on on-line data bases) on several Wikipedias, so yes, bots can, and do, create articles. I don't know the extent of it on en-WP, though. Neuman, Alfred E (talk) 20:00, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
          • On en.wp, I don't think bots can create articles, though on other wikis, I'm sure the bot creates articles by translating them from other languages. Sv.wp's 2.7 million bot-created articles are, in fact, actually created by Sverker Johansson, a real person who operates a bot, so it's not totally automated, either. Epicgenius (talk) 05:06, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Let's get back to the topic. The user received the last warning (User talk:Aknaqvi). He/she did not make a disruption since than. If he/she removes the speedy tag once again, should be blocked. Vanjagenije (talk) 13:36, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

I agree, but the user hasn't edited since this report, so it shouldn't really be a problem. Epicgenius (talk) 23:22, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Edit war on Israeli Jews

I used to edit under the account User:Mr. Sort It Out, but since then forgot my password and was editing from my dynamic IP. Just clarifying it so the administrator could see that I was not being a sock, but simply not registering to my account.

We have formerly achieved a consensus regarding what images to use on the collage: Talk:Israeli Jews#Proposing a new collage. The Israeli Jews had a long history of edit wars and that was a very good consensus/compromise, which actually worked.

Today I noticed that on the 14th of December someone made changes to collage without discussing them first on the talk page, an honest mistake some people make. 14:09, 11 January 2015‎ I returned the original consensus version and notified the user on his wall that in order to make changes to a collage one must discuss it first. I thought it is over, but then a new user arrived!

User:Ashurbanippal arrived, decided that Ilan Ramon should be in the collage (I actually agree with that, but it needs to be discussed and agreed first), and reverted me.

For the rest, you can take a look at the page history: [203]

As you can see, I (from my IP) am repeatedly telling him that if he wants any changes he must use the talk page for discussion. In one of the edit summaries he wrote: "I see no consensus on the talk page for this". I gave him the link to the discussion in my edit summary, but he simply reverted me again and wrote: "No, no consensus". In his next revert he wrote to me: "I'm a registered user, you are an IP vandal. Stop this edit-warring or I'll report you."

If you take a look at the edit history of the user, you shell see his whole edit history is edit warring: [204]. He is edit warring on Lehava, on Zionist political violence, on History of antisemitism... the user obviously is unwilling to respect the fact that he is not the final decision maker on Wikipedia and that on Wikipedia it is important to use the talk page and achieve consensus.

Can an administrator please get involved? Mr. Sort It Out2 (talk) 02:44, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Now you suddenly "remembered" your password. Very convenient. You have been engaged in edit-warring despite you didn't gain consensus to change the collage. Who agreed with you on the talk page? As I told you before, the changes you made exclude notable Israelis like Ilan Ramon (first astronaut), Casspi (basketball player), Bar Refaeli (the most famous Israeli model) and others.--Ashurbanippal (talk) 03:09, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

I did not "suddenly remember", I opened a new account. Can't you see it says Mr. Sort It Out2 now?

You really can't be real. I gave you a link to the consensus: [205]. I already gave you that link. The page you are reverting to are changes done without a discussion in the first place few weeks ago, and you know that perfectly well because I already told you that.

You really need to learn the meaning of the word "exclude". Omri Casspi was considered for the collage but was declined due to the fact we already have a sportsperson in the collage (Benayoun), Bar Rafaeli was considered but it was decided at the discussion that there are more fitting personalities, and about Ilan Ramon... I actually agree with you! But you know something?? Whoever you think should be in the collage, you need to go through the talk page.

Did you see the people you deleted?? People that had a consensus achieved about them ON THE LINK I GAVE YOU. Kishon, nominated for the Oscar and Golden Globe winner... are you serious removing him?? Common.

The version I am reverting to is the one which was the consensus version (and you know it because I gave you the link). Is it perfect in my opinion? Close to perfect. I would personally add Ramon instead of Gelfand, but you know something? I would NEVER dare to do this change without discussing it first and the talk page.

Looking at your editing pattern it's easy to tell that edit warring is simply the only way you know. Talk pages are a wonderful way to avoid edit wars and achieve changes which are acceptable with everybody, use it. Many before you had tried the tactic of edit warring "until the other side gets tired", and I can assure you it never worked. Mr. Sort It Out2 (talk) 03:18, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Ashurbanippal, using multiple accounts and IP addresses is permitted when you do it openly. You'll note that the basic examples of illegitimate sockpuppetry are all situations where the same person's using multiple accounts in a deceptive fashion. Since Mr. Sort It Out, whether accounts #1 or #2, has clearly linked the two accounts and the IP address, and since they've been sequential (not overlapping), it's not possible for this situation to be a sockpuppetry violation. Nyttend (talk) 03:25, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Ok, my apologies. I didn't notice this and the fact that some kind of consensus was achieved on the talk page. I'll stop changing the collage of the article, although I find very problematic that Refaeli and Ramon aren't there.--Ashurbanippal (talk) 03:29, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

I think you did notice it, I gave you the link and I spoke about it numerous times. I think you thought you can get away with it as you thought I was an inexperienced anonymous IP user. I also think that what stopped you from edit warring is the fact I opened this thread (and pointed out your editing pattern on other pages). But it doesn't matter anymore (to me, anyway).

I agree with the consensus about not including Refaeli (she was considered). But about Ramon... I personally think he should be included, and if you want, no one is preventing you from starting a new discussion on the talk page regarding the inclusion of Ilan Ramon. No one said that a consensus can't be changed, but it can be changed only through discussion. Mr. Sort It Out2 (talk) 03:34, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

It's done. I replaced Nini for Ramon and opened a discussion on the talk page. You are more than welcome to give your opinion.--Ashurbanippal (talk) 03:50, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

"It's done"? No, it is not done as you obviously still don't get it and choose to edit war. FIRST you discuss, and only THEN depending on the decision you do the change.

And he is back to edit war, after he said "I didn't notice this and the fact that some kind of consensus was achieved on the talk page. I'll stop changing the collage of the article", User:Ashurbanippal again does changes to the collage without any discussion or agreement. Mr. Sort It Out2 (talk) 03:54, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Ok, I thought you wanted Ramon. I won't make a single edit in that article unless you agree with me. Happy?--Ashurbanippal (talk) 03:56, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

It's not about me, I am not a decision maker. I am only a voice in the discussion. My point is make a proposal on the talk page first, and only after a decision was achieved make the change. I don't own the page. Mr. Sort It Out2 (talk) 04:06, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

I personally welcome a range of non-disruptive influences in Israel related topics but Ashurbanippal may currently be more disruptive than is the ideal. See also current: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring#User:Ashurbanippal reported by User:Cathar66Cathar66 (Result: ).

It is respected that an editor can change views even only when a case is brought to administration but IMO some sanction should still be given. Editors on these articles should be able to work together so as, where relevant, to jointly work out ways forward. GregKaye 08:06, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Homosexuality page is completely blocked to any editors, including the Talk Page, except for a select few

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The homosexuality page is biased and one sided, and any atempt to make changes or suggesting any research work which are contrary to the editors wishes (many of whom are homosexuals, I have checked) is inmmediatly flagged as vandalism, people get blocked, etc. This site is run like a dictatorship, all opinion, views or suggestion contrary to those in charge are inmediatly suppressed. There is plenty of research on homosexuality, many of which are negative and equate it to a psychiatric illness, some of which are positive (and typically done by homosexual psychologists) which are cherry picked. Wikipedia in general encourages people to edit, to be bold, but there is not such thing on the homosexuality article. On the contrary, homosexuals in charge run the show, disspelling half-baked research which gives a wrong impression of the issue at hand. I suggest that everyone be allowed to edit this article, toguether with the talk page, instead of discriminating against researchers just because what they say does not conform to the homosexual agenda (even if it is true).201.217.40.2 (talk) 15:58, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

I stopped reading your post toward the end of your first sentence, when you expressed surprise and outrage that gay people are permitted to edit Wikipedia. Then I thought that maybe I was being unfair to you, so I went ahead and read your whole post, which confirmed my initial instincts. It's ironic that you couch your appeal in terms of freedom for everyone to edit, because by allowing people like you—people with powerful and loudly expressed prejudices—to edit, we actually make Wikipedia less free and open by implicitly excluding the people who, through no fault of their own, are the targets of your prejudice and disdain. I don't think that Wikipedia is a good fit for what you apparently want to accomplish, and I'd endorse the actions of the admins who have dealt with your editing thus far. MastCell ^Talk 16:10, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Why was this closed without explanation (add: and prior to reply) by a non-admin? I am all for protection and don't object the closure but, when faced with seemingly bigoted views, I would think that a demand for substantiation, diffs and logging on might help a questionable editor resolve issues. GregKaye 16:26, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

• Have a look at [206], [207] and [208]. Rangeblocks for homophobic trolling already handed out. Black Kite (talk) 16:35, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Black Kite I agree that points raised are very wrong and the diffs you raised are horrendous. I don't doubt that you and other admins have experience in dealing with similar matters. It may be naive but I would have thought that the IP could have been required to present diffs and be shown how wrong they were. An editor had questionably raised issue here and behaviours could have been openly refuted as required. Your diffs point to an editor that had been advised to go to AN. Again this may be Naive. GregKaye 17:06, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Administrator Black Kite agressively blokcs several users in an unreasonable manner, violating several wikipedia rules

It has come to my attention that over a minor dissagrement with a wikipedia user, administrator Black Kite has blocked a whole range of IP addresses shared by several users who are potentially good editors of wikipedia and may do significant contributions. Some of the allegations, like troll or no recent contributions of one particular user, are irrational in my view.201.217.40.2 (talk) 14:51, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

This sheds a clue. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 15:26, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Moved to subsection of original thread for clarity. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 15:41, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

No rule was broken, and the range block was entirely appropriate under the circumstances. Wikipedia is not a platform for homophobic bigotry. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:45, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Friends of gays should not be allowed to edit articles. Bishonen | talk 15:56, 13 January 2015 (UTC).

"Several users" ... who mysteriously post the exact same homophobic diatribe on multiple pages. I'm guessing it's "probably come to your attention" because you are that one user. Am I right? Let's have a look at the IP geolocation ... yep. Black Kite (talk) 18:48, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

TBAN Violation by P-123

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Block evasion by IP. Disregard complaint. If there's a problem, somebody who isn't so obviously a troublemaker will notice and report it. Jehochman ^Talk 16:34, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

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P-123 (talk) reported by 199.255.211.33 (talk)

P-123 (talk) is topic banned for three months (expiry 12:00, 2 April 2015 (UTC)) from all pages broadly related to Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant. He is not allowed to talk about Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant or link to it.

P-123 (talk) is pushing the envelope. After he was banned just a few days ago, he started again poking holes through his TBAN by talking about Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant on his user page and then linking to it in defiance. [209]. This was his user page just before his edit today [210]. 199.255.211.33 (talk) 13:26, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Later, he talked about and then linked to Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, also in defiance. [[211]]. 199.255.211.33 (talk) 13:40, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Comment: P-123 posted a revised version of his note at 11:18, 28 December 2014 during the ANi The TBAN was enacted on 00:29, 2 January 2015. He then started cleaning up his talk page while playing with a new autoarchiver script. He managed to archve and restore the post from his archives on 11:49, 8 January 2015. Let's not kick the guy for reorging his talk and archives. Legacypac (talk) 14:05, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

I am very sorry about this. There was no defiance intended. I was restoring what had previously been on my userpage (and included the other reference mentioned above) and just didn't think of the implications of what I was doing. It was a stupid and terrible mistake. I am trying hard to keep to the terms of the TBAN/IBAN and it was a genuine slip-up through oversight. I was cleaning up my userpage and not meaning to communicate anything in those edits beyond general information. I will remove those edits now. ~ P-123 (talk) 13:55, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

When under a topic ban, your best bet is to take any pages related to that topic off your watch list. That way you won't be tempted. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:11, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: No opinion on the merit of this TBAN evasion but I noticed a sneaky WP:Forumshop at [212] that was neatly hidden at [213] 23.27.252.124 (talk) 14:15, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

• There was nothing sneaky about what I did. The two admins have answered some queries I had post-ANI on how to communicate with ex-colleagues without violating the TBAN. I pinged them here and then thought better of it. I would really appreciate it if others did not automatically assume bad faith. ~ P-123 (talk) 15:14, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

I was pinged here, presumably because I have dealt somewhat with these bans before, but my name has apparently now been removed. In any case, I think it's best left to User:Callanecc to review the matter. I'll mention that I rather suspect the 199.xx IP, editing from an open proxy, represents the same individual who has made it something of a sacred mission to bait/troll P-124 with regard to their TBAN/IBAN, and to always assume the maximum of bad faith. It can't be much fun to have them constantly treading on one's heels, and I don't think it should be encouraged. That said, no doubt the actual issue needs to be considered separately. Bishonen | talk 14:16, 8 January 2015 (UTC).

I was severally threatened with a block for interacting with P-123 when I was trying to help the editor in very good faith - told not to poke the bear. Hard to believe that the IP started a thread on this when there are much bigger bad behavior out there to deal with. Legacypac (talk) 14:26, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

• Bishonen is right to say the actual issues need to be considered separately but we must assume that 199.255.211.33 is bringing this matter in good faith rather than protect an evader and an apparent admin shopper by demonizing all IPs. We also cannot speculate as to who is who without evidence as this discourages editors from reporting to AN/I. 23.27.252.124 (talk) 14:25, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

• Please, I did not try to evade the TBAN - as I explained, I made a stupid mistake, for which I am sorry. ~ P-123 (talk) 15:28, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

• Where do you see anyone "demonizing all IP's"? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:44, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
  • It's not safe to assume good faith regarding IP's like the OP here and like yourself, who show up from nowhere and make complaints. Even so, though, no one can be "baited" without being a willing participant. If an editor is topic-banned, he needs to stay away from that topic. End of story. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:36, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Baseball Bugs: I have studiously kept away from the topic, and have nothing on my watchlist, but still somehow managed to make this stupid mistake. I am not sure whether you meant I was a willing participant in some baiting. The way I saw it was that I had make a mistake and felt I needed to explain it here, and not excuse myself. A TBAN violation, of whatever kind, is a serious matter. ~ P-123 (talk) 14:50, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Forgetting is different from being baited. I have made the same kind of slip myself from time to time. You just have to be careful. I, like you, have various "friends" watching, all too eager to pounce when a mistake is made. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:54, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

P-123 is right. A TBAN violation, of whatever kind, is a serious matter, and so is admin shopping especially when done the way he did it. This should be also considered when imposing sanctions on him. One question: Who baited P-123 and where? 23.27.252.124 (talk) 14:59, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

• Please see my response above to your interpretation of my action and the manner in which it was done. ~ P-123 (talk)

First tell me what your actual user ID is. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:08, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

I don't have one. So, do you see any baiting here? 23.27.252.124 (talk) 15:12, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Only by you and the OP. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:14, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Please be civil not rude with me. 23.27.252.124 (talk) 15:21, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

You're being dishonest. Start being honest, and you'll get better treatment. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→

There are two previous attempts by one of these IPs to attack P-123 a little higher up the page. A good comment to consider - Quoted: (My closure of the prior complaint as "No action" is self-explanatory. No action was required because the complaint didn't substantiate the need for a block. This IP is pushing the boundaries of WP:POINT and should now stop. Jehochman Talk 14:11, 7 January 2015 (UTC) end Quote. Referring to 23.27.252.124 Legacypac (talk) 15:31, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

• Referring to 23.27.252.124? Where? 23.27.252.124 (talk) 15:39, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

• 23.27.252.124, as for your question about who baited P-123, I for one am not willing to do the diff-digging for you; you'll have to see their talkpage history. (Hint: look for IPs.) Of course you're quite new to Wikipedia, aren't you, and just prefer not to get an account? And you're righteously indignant at the way we treat IPs as second-class citizens? (Which we don't, at least I don't, as long as they don't show any other signs of being in bad faith.) And you're by no means the same as 199.xx? Am I right? @Legacypac: that's an interesting quote from higher up the page. Pinging Jehochman. Bishonen | talk 15:41, 8 January 2015 (UTC).

• No, I am not any other IP. 23.27.252.124 (talk) 15:44, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

• No one starts editing Wikipedia by going to the ANI page. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:46, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
• Noted, 23.27.252.124. I asked three questions, please consider addressing the other two as well. Bishonen | talk 15:55, 8 January 2015 (UTC).

• Bishonen, please would you be civil in asking questions? Yes, I prefer not to get an account for now. Yes, I prefer that IPs are not treated by anyone as second-class citizens. I also prefer assumption of good faith rather than speculation. 23.27.252.124 (talk) 16:02, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

• The vast majority of IP's edit in good faith and are treated well. You act suspicious, so it's reasonable to treat you with suspicion. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:05, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

• No comment. There is an AN/I below. 23.27.252.124 (talk) 16:07, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Given the trolling report here by an out-of-the-blue IP, and its continual support by another trolling, out-of-the-blue IP [who's evading a block], both of them should be blocked and this section should be boxed up. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:09, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

I asked you to stop speculation. I have already started an AN/I of my own below. 23.27.252.124 (talk) 16:22, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

And it is now finished, as you are blocked. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:31, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Indeed, and you've already been blocked. See that thread. Bishonen | talk 16:30, 8 January 2015 (UTC).

• Thank you, Jehochman. I don't suppose my range block will inconvenience them much. I ask all admins to please block all static IPs with a similar hostile agenda re P-123 on sight, per WP:DUCK. They can't get at the user's talkpage now, as it's been semi'd, so please keep a lookout in other arenas. Bishonen | talk 16:44, 8 January 2015 (UTC).

Agreed. I've seen similar problems with other ranges and a number were blocked earlier today after a CU. Dougweller (talk) 15:54, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

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79.121.221.157

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This I.P. continues to revert changes on Chris James (racing driver) to a non-encyclopedic sales pitch. I have reason to believe this user is Chris himself as he is notable in the Motorsport community for being somewhat of a keyboard warrior. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pinkd56 (talk • contribs) 16:28, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

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IP Editor evading ban

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User: 46.208.228.150 has been blocked for 72 hrs for vandalism at the article Stop the Bus (see [214]). This person is a single purpose editor, and only seems to edit the above mentioned article ([215]) and the article Creature of Havoc ([[216]]). Further to this, the editor has a habit of automatically reverting edits by other users and is bltatantly rude about any perceived interference ([217]].

These blind reversions without discussion resulted in the block, however a simple check of the WHOIS feature reveals that the editor has simply resumed editing Creature of Havoc with another IP from the same address. The point of origin for User 46.208.228.150:[[218]] is exactly the same as it is for this user's new alias: User 83.216.142.251 - ([219]). The language is also a dead giveaway as this person is simply not interested in entertaining other contributions (the case at both articles). Given this blatent disregard for the block - which was minimal - I would respectfully request that the IP source be totally blocked. Otherwise, this behaviour will continue. Regards Asgardian (talk) 11:05, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

83.216.142.251 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) just removed this section, I've re-added it. — Strongjam (talk) 14:18, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

• Re-adding this entry as it was not resolved due to a backlog and then subsequent archiving by a bot. Although the block period has expired, this editor's breach and overall behaviour need to be addressed. There was also an attempted removal of this entry by the editor, which was restored by another user. Thank you. Asgardian (talk) 09:36, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

• There isn't enough activity on this article to really resort to anything more drastic, such as page protection. If it does occur again, please file a new report either at WP:AIV or WP:ANI. seicer | talk | contribs 16:35, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

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More eyes needed at Charlie Hebdo shooting

We could use some more help at Charlie Hebdo shooting and its talk page in order to develop a better consensus about a number of issues. Abductive (reasoning) 07:46, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Hmm, maybe this page can use some (more) protection. Epicgenius (talk) 21:08, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

I looked, I saw an editor complaining about this post, and I agree more eyes are needed. Legacypac (talk) 02:24, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Continued spam in lede & edit war at Big data

An IP user, 90.50.49.149, & a registered user, Fgtyg78, have continually been adding material about Lablanche & Co. to the lede of Big data. Fgtyg78 refuses on the talk page to acknowledge that the material may appear to be WP:COI at worst & WP:PROMOTION at best. 90.50.49.149 has signed the Talk:Big data with the straight text "Fgtyg78", then has been identified as the IP address by SineBot. These users are currently involved in an edit war, having added the material back into the article after it has been removed 5 times by NewEnglandYankee, McSly, & myself, Peaceray. The promotional material is prominently placed in the 2nd paragraph of the lede. No other company is mentioned in the lede. I believe 90.50.49.149 / Fgtyg78 needs to meaningfully engage in discussion to address any perceived problems on the talk page. Engaging in an edit war obviously will not resolve this. I am thus requesting a temporary block on the Big data article of this registered editor / IP editor, who already would have been blocked through the 3-revert rule had the editor(s) been reverting instead of manually replacing the problem edits. Finally, I have placed the {{subst:ANI-notice}} template on 90.50.49.149 / Fgtyg78 talk pages.Peaceray (talk) 17:47, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

comment: I'm seeing multiple IPs involved at Compressed sensing (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) doing the same advert linkspam additions, dating back over six months (see edits by 90.50.181.188 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), 90.50.55.232 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), 90.45.70.142 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), and 90.50.174.191 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)). These additional IPs all geo-locate to the same region as the IP listed above. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 19:38, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

• I'm semiprotecting Big data and Compressed sensing for a month each. User:Barek has already blocked User:Fgtyg78 for spamming. EdJohnston (talk) 02:34, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

• Thank you, Barek, EdJohnston, & Kuru, for your attention to this & for the work that you do. Peaceray (talk) 06:38, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

User:Enkhzaya.b

The account Enkhzaya.b (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) primarly exists for the purpose of removing inconvenient (but well sourced) information from the pages Nambaryn Enkhbayar and Mongolian People's Revolutionary Party (2010). Her user contributions should suffice for documentation. After about half a dozen ignored warnings, any hope of her learning seems misplaced. --Latebird (talk) 23:44, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

24-hour block levied, with a reminder that recidivism will lead to longer future blocks. Nyttend (talk) 12:30, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Could an Admin Revdel...

the section I just blanked? It was nonsensical idiocy. -Ad Orientem (talk) 03:34, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Done. Acroterion (talk) 03:36, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. -Ad Orientem (talk) 03:37, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Aha. I see there's more admins trying to hide the truth. And kittens. Drmies (talk) 03:39, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Only the red kittens. Acroterion (talk) 03:47, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

This version still has that section. --User talk:Vigyani 03:45, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Gone now, missed the checkbox. Thanks, Acroterion (talk) 03:48, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Editor calling me a twit

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Earlier today User:Mike hayes (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) made an edit on Tappan Adney (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), in which he left an edit summary apparently calling be a "twit" (diff). I fixed the problem and left a message on his talk page, hoping to clear it up. He left a reply, again calling me a twit (diff2) and then blanked the section, with the edit summary "you twit" (diff3). Can something be done about this? I would like to know why this person insists on calling me this name?--Auric talk 21:23, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) I suggest a warning about personal attacks. Epicgenius (talk) 21:28, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Alternatively, you could see it as a friendly jibe. Text based communication isn't very good at conveying tone. Blackmane (talk) 21:59, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

You shouldn't do drugs and edit, Blackmane. Especially on ANI. Auric, best advice is to just be the bigger person and let it go. Some people are only as good as the fantastic jabs they come up with.--v/r - TP 22:39, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

TP this "You shouldn't do drugs and edit, Blackmane." is well out of line. AnonNep (talk) 22:43, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Context is a magical thing.--v/r - TP 22:54, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, and so is editing while high. That really messes up your perception of things. You can even perceive personal attacks that aren't there. Epicgenius (talk) 23:36, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment)Auric, I was trying to come up with my own witty retort, but TParis gave you IMO the best advice. I would just laugh off their limited vocabulary and move on... :) --Scalhotrod (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 22:51, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

ANI is the best high. Between TParis's "drugs and edit" and AnonNep's "out of line", there are surely great misconstruals (is this even a word?) to be had :) NE Ent below says it best. To avoid any misunderstandings it's best not to use a word that can be taken as an insult or a friendly jab. Blackmane (talk) 02:41, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

It's not appropriate for Mike hayes to be calling other editors "twit" and hopefully he'll agree to stop doing so. NE Ent 23:10, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Can we just call this whole thing childish, close this, and move on? As someone once told me here there are editors with thick and thin skins, let it go. If you encounter the editor again and he/she goes after you then come back here. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:25, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Seeing as there seem to be special WP:NPA exceptions for special people maybe there should just be a special WP:SNOWCLOSE on this? AnonNep (talk) 01:10, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

I don't think anyone here is being treated special and agree it is wrong but a template warning on their page would have done the job as well. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:26, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

User:Auric, I would take it as a compliment because it is such a minor insult he must think quite highly of you. Scroll up the page and read up on the things I've been called. Legacypac (talk) 02:20, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Really, people. The proper response to an editor seeking assistance is not to tell the editor to suck it up. If you don't want to deal with the issue, leave it to other people who will. User:Bearian managed to deal with the issue without feeling compelled to blame the victim for not having a thicker skin. Gamaliel (talk) 04:11, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

If they had said twat instead of twit, maybe that would be worth worrying about. Maybe get one of these in the meantime. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 19:13, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

The fourth pillar is well and truly fallen. The general consensus is that this sort of incivility is fine. StAnselm (talk) 20:07, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Unbelievable. Anybody who thinks twit is uncivil is a twit. If there are reprimands of any kind over this, it would be a disaster for this project. -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 20:12, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

You're a twit if you can't admit it's uncivil. It's a negative remark about another person. The only matter of debate is whether it rises to the level of offense worthy of action and I think we all agree that it's better if Auric let it go. But it takes a real twit to run around telling everyone that calling others names isn't offensive and completely civil.--v/r - TP 20:43, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

I think for minor offenses the line can be drawn though, how long do you propose the block be for the editor who calls another editor a twit? I saw the exchange this has not been over a period of time but just two encounters. WP:CIVIL can still be intact but it should deal with major problems or long term abuse (Is the editor calling everyone a twit?, Has the editor engaged in long term harassment of the user? Has the editor said anything personal about another's family? Ect....) - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:17, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

This is Gawker levels of mundane. Holy shit. And for Wikipedia, thats saying something. Close this and trout OP. --DSA510 Pls No RE 21:10, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

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Requesting an indefinite block

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I don't know why it is so hard to get blocked around here. Please, would some administrator block me indefinitely? I'm "not here", or anywhere, for that matter. I've been requesting such a block all day, but I just can't seem to get anyone to oblige. I was unblocked without my consent, earlier in the day, and it is really quite angering. I cannot believe that such an injustice is acceptable. Is anyone around here capable of doing what needs to be done? RGloucester — ☎ 23:43, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Please see my suggestion on your page, which I posted before I saw this. Bishonen | talk 23:51, 13 January 2015 (UTC).

Retiring, would be less fuss. GoodDay (talk) 00:09, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

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User:Gegigie

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While patrolling new userpages, I noticed that the account Gegigie (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) created a userpage that evidently indicates that this account is a block evasion of indef-blocked user Janagewen (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). --SoCalSuperEagle (talk) 00:20, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

• I've blocked Gegigie as a  Confirmed sock of Janagewen.--Jezebel's Ponyo^{bons mots} 00:37, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

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Harassment

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This issue: An ANI was filed against me by LegacyPac. [220] This was the fourth ANI Legacypac has filed against me, all previous ones being unactioned. In this most recent ANI I received my first block ever, for 36 hours, not due to anything LP brought up in the ANI (NinjaRobotPirate, John Smith the Gamer and others commented that, after reviewing my comments, there was nothing egregious), but because of my exceptionally dismissive treatment of the ANI itself ("evasiveness"), for which I take full responsibility; indeed, I lodged no appeal of the block. (I blamed my sheer exhaustion at defending myself from ANIs that go nowhere but I accept that is no excuse for not giving a thorough treatment to each ANI LegacyPac files against me and to fail to do so is disruptive.)

Immediately after the above occurred, LegacyPac began reviewing pages I had created on topics on which he has never previously edited, leaving notes on my Talk page. [221] In response, Only had to pull Legacypac's rights as a reviewer. Though Legacypac was now under caution not to directly contact me, he was apparently undeterred as I began receiving a flurry of notifications from Legacypac that every recent page I'd authored he was now patrolling: (screen cap: [222] | diffs: [223], [224]). Again, all of these were on broad subject areas on which he has no past edit history.

Background: My edits on these articles are unimpeachable so I don't really care about WP:HOUND in itself. The issue of the above described "needling" becomes specifically problematic for me in view of a long and ongoing pattern of persistence that indicates an intent to carry a grudge to the bitter end for anyone who has disagreed with LegacyPac in an article related to ISIL, which is why I'm raising it. LegacyPac, who has recently finished a one-year topic ban on BLP imposed by Salvio_giuliano, has exhibited a specific modus operandi with respect to his interaction with both myself and other editors, to wit -

• (1) after a RfC I proposed was supported over his objections, began to repeatedly denounce me as an "Iranian" "anti-American," the aggressively chilling effect of which motivated me to completely disengage from topics related to ISIL several months ago and remove a nationality userbox from my userspace.[225], [Edit for clarification - it was brought up by a third-party editor in LP's most recent ANI against me that, after the first instance in which LP denounced me as Anti-American, my userpage was vandalized by IP editors saying I should be "nuked" ... so there's no misunderstanding on this point, I in no way believe LegacyPac was responsible for that and do not support any such implication he was.]
• (2) requested Rollback rights and, on being denied them, surreptitiously - albeit unsuccessfully - began lobbying to have my own rollback rights pulled (IOW without pinging me) [226]
• (3) consistently leaves aggressive and threatening notes in his edit summaries or talk discussions impugning the GF of other editors and threatening to barrage them with ANIs, such as this one where he tells Corriebertus revert utter nonsense edit by user pushing some agenda [227] or here where he threatens I will report you to the same editor, [228], or in one of his many recent ANI filings where he described Signedzzz as "this editor can't read english" [229], or when last week he blasted a new editor with whom he was recently in an edit conflict Are you a child? your writing contains child like mistakes [230] & [231], or here where he threatens that he will try to get Drmies de-admined with the note "You lost to other editors on the Chinese vics name and lost to other editors on Suspects ... Perhaps Drmies should not be an Admin anymore. How do we arrange that? [232], or here where he dramatically declares his edits are to defend WP against "terrorists" who have infiltrated it (he's also used the term "pro-terrorist" in his past ANI filings which, suggests to me, he is WP:NOTHERE but is rather here to defend mom, baseball and apple pie) [233]
• (4) routinely edits against consensus to make WP:POINTs in a very destructive way, requiring substantial editor time to clean-up the pieces ([a] here [234] he moved the entire page "2014 Military Intervention against ISIL" even though a move discussion on that very topic had just opened two hours before [which ultimately was closed as opposing the move], [b] here [235] he unilaterally blanked the entire page Siege of Kobanî; Kkj11210 had to revert his unilateral decision to remove all sourced content, [c] he unilaterally moved the page Iranian-led intervention in Iraq (see: [236]) even though a discussion about that move (that, in fact, he initiated) was ongoing and no one had registered a !vote in support of such a move. (see: [[237]]). He left the parting shot "Iran leads no one." before taking this action. Another editor had to undo it, [d] other examples not listed here for sake of brevity.

Note: This is not a question of an IBAN as (a) the issues are not limited to me but are indicative of a demonstrable style of intercourse with other editors, and, (b) I have had no contact with Legacypac, of my own volition, for several months until - briefly - last week in ANI. (While I have no plans to interact with him again, since he's now indicated his intent to follow me around mainspace, at this point the only possible way I can guarantee I'd have no interaction with him in the future is if I deleted my account. Out of a preponderance of caution, however, I will file a request for WP:RENAME.) Document★Error 09:48, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: I currently have issues with Legacypac's New Page Patrolling and may shortly be asking him to do something less demanding, such as vandal patrol instead. He provides an earlier explanation to PBS at User talk:Legacypac#Auto reviews but he is clearly trying to patrol new pages with far too little experience and ostensibly not having first read WP:DELETION and the tutorial at WP:NPP. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 10:51, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Kudpung กุดผึ้ง, while LegacyPac's explanation to PBS that he simply came upon the five articles I created in the routine course of new page patrolling is certainly possible, I find it a little improbable that he randomly stumbled upon 5 articles I'd authored within a space of 3 minutes on the same day his ANI against me was closed, particularly as all five of them were several weeks old so were not showing anywhere near the top of the New Page Feed. (Honestly, I would find it improbable that he'd randomly encounter even one, let alone five.) If I am mistaken, and this is something that is quite likely to happen, then I of course would ask to close this ANI as a non-issue and apologize for any implication or accusation contained within it. Document★Error 11:19, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Reply: Ping Bishonen. Kudpung happy to discuss your concerns on my talkpage. Legacypac (talk) 11:07, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

User:DocumentError Please fix the link above which I have marked as "wrong link" (please provide proper diffs) -- PBS (talk) 11:25, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

@Legacypac:, as far as your page patrolling is concerned there's not much to discuss , all you need to do is read the instructions you were pointed to and patrol accordingly. As far as the rest of the claims against you are concerned, I'll wait for more input from other editors. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 11:33, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for noticing, I've updated and corrected. Document★Error 12:00, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Bishonen summing up the LegacyPac, ANI (Unfortunate User Conduct) said among other things "OK, now I've reviewed this thread, as requested by DocumentError. Something that stands out here (and also in posts made on other pages during this, timewise, quite brief ANI) is DocumentError's persistent and quite specific accusations against Legacypac and dancing around repeated requests to substantiate them. They either ignore requests for diffs or specifics or bat them away with rebuffs such as "I don't understand - are you asking me to file an ANI against you?… this is an ANI about me",... Also, it seems no amount of pleading will persuade DE to provide diffs, ...I will not spend the best years of my life reading those [long sections". Yet here you are again providing links to the same long sections and not providing diffs. Take for example your first accusation, instead of providing a diff you have yet again linked to a section. Provide diffs which include your quoted text in all cases and provide diffs for specific accusations (not just section).

I notice that in your first accusation, Bishonen's review and the date of your block (8 January 2015) was after the text which you have yet again misquoted (26 November 2014), so why are you bringing up something which Bishonen has already reviewed? As to the rest please strike anything which pre-dates your block as you had a chance at the last ANI to bring all those accusations up if you had thought them relevant. That I think leaves the new page patrolling which I think is a legitimate area for concern.

I suggest that you do not ask for a rename as that in itself is not a new start, and the problems with new starts is that you have to keep away from areas which you have previously been involved. It also means that if Legacypac were to act in bad faith then Legacypac has the defence that I did not know that the new name was the old DocumentError. -- PBS (talk) 12:02, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

please strike anything which pre-dates your block ? That's ridiculous. There's no wikilegal statue statute of limitations on documenting problematic behavior. DocumentError was blocked for not providing diffs; clearly an efficacious block as they're now doing so. NE Ent 12:17, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

I agree. It is patently absurd for an editor to be blocked for failing to provide diffs on one occasion, then be criticised for providing diffs on the next occasion. Reyk _YO! 12:28, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Reyk I was asking for diffs what makes you think I was not? -- PBS (talk) 12:31, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

You're asking DocumentError to strike the diffs he was blocked for not providing earlier. Reyk _YO! 12:49, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

No I am saying that if DocumentError insists on re-presenting the same complaints, then DocumentError should have taken heed of the block and presented them as diffs. However as Bishonen has already dealt with these complaints I do not think they need to be examined again, and doing so can be see as trying to find another parent, so I suggest that those old complaints from before the close of the recent ANI are struck out and AFAICT that just leaves the page patrolling issue. -- PBS (talk) 13:33, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

If I may diagree with the greatest respect and deference; I don't want to put words in Bish's mouth, but my understanding, when she said "I will not spend the best years of my life reading those" was that she had not read them (due to my linking to sections instead of diffs for which she wisely blocked me for 36 hours and which I have here corrected).

Second, 9 of the 13 diffs you've requested be struck were not actually included in LP's ANI against me.

Third, as I noted, these are presented for purposes of context only for the benefit of editors who are not familiar with the details of the background, as I was previously blocked for not providing detailed of background (thank you for teaching me how to link to archived diffs so I don't make that same error). This is why I labeled them "background" and the issue being raised "this issue." My block-free record and history clear of disputes with other editors was something I was very proud of and it was very painful to see that erased forever. If these explanations do not makes sense and, in trying to "CYA" (CMA?), I have gone too far in the other direction I will make whatever changes directed. My obeisance is total and the preceding explanation is not an attempt to challenge you but simply a clarification in case of misunderstanding created by my own inferior ability at explanation. Document★Error 15:08, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

PBS, thank you, you are correct. There are two instances where I linked to sections instead of diffs. I will have those corrected and edited within the next 10 minutes. Edit: the two instances of links to sections instead of diffs have been corrected; in these cases they were archived discussions and I'm not 100% sure how to link to diffs within a sigmabot archived discussion, but I think I did it correctly - if I did not, please give me a heads-up. Thanks. Edit2: I added two more diff links and struck the corresponding section links as requested. I think that's everything. Sorry for my technical issues. Document★Error 12:24, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

GoldenRing's summary below belies what you say and if for example we now take your first allegation for which you have now provided a link the link does not support you summary of " began to repeatedly denounce me as an "Iranian" "anti-American,"" an accurate quote is ...[DocumentError] was editing from a clear pro-Iran, anti-American POV and did engage in forum shopping" No "Iranian" there (or in the rest of the diff) and you would have had to had produced multiple diffs for the "repeatedly" accusation. -- PBS (talk) 11:54, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

A bit of explanation. When I tried NewPagePatrol I had read (what I now realize today) is only some of the instructions (which are spread across various pages I now learn). Seeing the massive 90+ day general que I set the filters to Unpatrolled+Created by Blocked Users and started from the oldest ones thinking that such pages have a somewhat higher chance of being junk/vandalism etc. and I'd be less likely to offend some new well meaning editor if I made a mistake since the editors are (I thought long-term/indef) blocked anyway. Because I was working from a much much smaller pool, and DocumentError was currently blocked but evidently had some of the oldest unreviewed pages, it is easy to see how I inadvertently encountered his pages. The two I looked earlier, I just green checked since they were 10 times better developed then most of the new pages and had obviously had experienced editor attention already. Legacypac (talk) 12:21, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

• • Legacypac, can we hear you say that you will make an attempt to not appear to be hounding DocumentError? Drmies (talk) 17:06, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Of course, I've been avoiding him for months because I find his behavior unpleasant. The last ANi was launched because he butted into another ANi thread, and started making inciting comments to other editors about me in various locations as detailed in that ANi. Legacypac (talk) 19:17, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

• Legacypac did indeed call for my mop, a year and a half ago. On the one hand, I am not sure how that old business relates to the present case. On the other, it is of course true that Legacypac should be blocked indefinitely for being wrong (but I'm pleased that DocumentError brought it up, since now I know that they're good). Also, I am very happy that experienced masochists admins like PBS and Bishonen are here to read through the court files; when they have done so, I will gladly sign off on whatever version of "non-actionable; will you please learn to get along like big kids should" they endorse. Drmies (talk) 14:34, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

I confirm I made an ill advised comment in a content dispute when I had a lot less experience and I still regret that. I hope Drmies is not holding a grudge because I recognize him to be a good admin and I don't think we have ever tangled since. Legacypac (talk) 19:17, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

• Comment, Whatever happens PLEASE can involved parties make interventions that aim to reduce the drama within and around ISIL related topics. DocumentError please can you edit in a way that reduces drama on ISIL related pages. You are raising issue with Legacypac. Why are you pinging other editors all around? You have done this before and a fair objection was raised on the grounds of WP:Canvass. I previously got in contact with you on your talk page as one of five editors that you pinged on PBS's talk page regarding your allegations of Legacypac's "toxicity". I was the only editor to respond: making note of Legacypac's good faith edits which after I justifiably objected to them, were quickly removed. I raised content with you here in the context of another comment of yours where you had spoken of a ~"poisonous" atmosphere in ISIL related discussions. You spoke of 'I made a conscious choice to stay away from ISIL-related topics several months ago after being called an "anti-Semite," "anti-American," "radical anti-American," "pro-terrorist," "cyber-terrorist," "raving anti-American terrorist nutjob," "raghead," "liberal," etc. by a tightly coordinated duo of editors.' You were asked to justify these claims. You speak of Legacypac holding a grudge and of hounding but seriously. Any AN/I can go both ways and at any time you were brought to AN/I you were entitled to argue your case. I do not think that you are entitled to fan flames by inviting editors left right and centre to discussions with claims of wrong. You mentioned two editors that apparently had made all the cited remarks which, on there own, would be worth of an AN/I. Instead you raise issue on behalf of other editors who, from your account, are familiar with AN/I.

Any genuine accusation of Legacypac's activities can, of course, be looked into. I raised my own comment in the last AN/I and elsewhere and I believe that Legacypac has given consideration to this content. Overall I can comment that I have seen Legacypac face great hostility at times in his efforts to defend against disruptive editing on various wiki pages and that his approach has often, but not always IMO, been exemplary. Comments made have been factually based. GregKaye 15:36, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

GregKaye (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) You said "please can you edit in a way that reduces drama on ISIL related pages" - as you know I have not edited any ISIL-related page in 3 months and, during the time I did, was never cautioned regarding any "drama." So I don't know what your request is in reference to or what it has to do with the issue of patrolling Seattle Metropolitan Credit Union and other pages. To your other point, many editors have commented on the "toxicity" of the ISIL pages right now. That's not a secret. I don't know what this has to do with Legacypac as he was never mentioned in the conversation you're referencing, nor do I understand what it has to do with the issue of patrolling Seattle Metropolitan Credit Union and other pages. You broached these same points in LP's ANI against me in identical verbiage and I similarly expressed my confusion. I'm sorry I can't help you. Document★Error 16:46, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

DocumentError Simply that you have gone to editor's talk pages making IMO provocative usages of words like wikt:poisonous and wikt:toxicity and have made uncited accusations. I am asking you to consider these issues. Please do not canvass. Feel free to raise your own arguments and points as needed. If you see wrong done in regard to such issues as misrepresentation then raise issue. Please support efforts to reduce drama on the page. You have made some fair edits but I have regarded your word use as being prone to incitement. I have asked Legacypac to consider issues and ask you to do the same. GregKaye 17:29, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

GregKaye (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), every "accusation" I've made in this ANI is supported by a diff, as shown above. Diffs are indicated by purple numbers inside brackets. You raised the same question in LP's ANI against me. All other editors, with the lone exception of you and editor "23.27.252.213", disputed that characterization with John Smith the Gamer observing that my "accusations" were supported by diffs and firmly stating "he did not make unsubstantiated personal attacks." (all linked at the top) In light of the strong consensus against the idea that I ever made "unsubstantiated attacks," it would be warmly appreciated if you and 23.27.252.213 reconsidered your decision to shop that claim. Best wishes - Document★Error 17:54, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

This is another extraordinary claim unsupported by diffs. Start with the closing admin's comments. Legacypac (talk) 19:17, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

So DocumentError is here, where DocumentError has lived, for months, on their own, and many unrelated issues, with many, many words, I'm sure all of which were wise and sincere, to suggest that now that they are back from their block, which happened because they were here a lot, and they got tired, we should block someone who came here a lot, for making them tired. Is that right? If so, there are probably other ways to solve this. Off the absolute top of my head, there's "not coming here a lot" - but I'm sure there are other solutions, too. Begoon ^talk 15:59, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Just a minor point of correction, prior to last week, the week in which LP filed an ANI against me (which was found non-actionable, like the many previous ones he's filed against me), I had not been at ANI since October 3 (and the only reason I was here then was to respond to one of the various ANIs Legacypac had filed against me [which, like all others, was dismissed]). So I'm not sure it's technically correct to say I've lived at ANI "for months, on [my own]" and been raising "many unrelated issues, with many, many words" considering I haven't visited ANI for 4 months have posted zero words to it in that time. Other editors party to this ANI may have been more frequent visitors to this section of WP. Thanks - Document★Error 16:46, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

That's a fair correction, and I apologise. However, it would be true to say that the only reason I recognise your username at all is from your posts here, and that's interesting in itself, I think. You have been prolific here, and not always for the right reasons. Congratulations if you are staying away now. --Begoon ^talk 17:06, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

No hard feelings, but I think you may have me confused with a different editor. I joined WP in November 2013, my first post to ANI was 1 September 2014 and my last post (prior to last week) was, as mentioned, one month later on 3 October 2014, with the exception of 4 short comments over 48 hours in November in this thread [238] to which I was not party but providing uninvolved comments. Document★Error 17:54, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

There seems to be confusion over why DocumentError was blocked. I understood it was for his behavior in making unsubstantiated accusations, but over here he says ...I do understand that was the reason I was blocked; not that I was claiming things that didn't occur but that I incorrectly linked them. So he comes off the block and makes more unsubstantiated allegations but with better diffs. Since he believes he only made a technical violation, clearly the block did not have the desired effect of modifying his behavior.

Question: In the last ANi you were asked to provide diffs for the extraordinary claim you were called an "anti-Semite," "anti-American," "radical anti-American," "pro-terrorist," "cyber-terrorist," "raving anti-American terrorist nutjob," "raghead," "liberal," etc. by a tightly coordinated duo of editors.' It appears, based on the context and timing, that you believe I was one of those two editors because you level some of these accusations directly at me in the ANi. Before anyone worries about a frustrated innapropriate comment I made in April 2013 to an Admin I disagreed with in a content dispute, or an old BLP topic ban served without a whisper of an issue or anything else unrelated to my or our interaction, how about helping us all find where any editor called you these atrociously inappropriate names (other then the anti-American comment about your editing style which was discussed). That is actionable, the rest is noise. Legacypac (talk) 19:17, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Comment (Want no part in the ANI) I have kept away from DocumentError after they pretty much stopped editing any ISIL related articles and I really want no part of this ANI but considering that they accused editors during their time on ISIL articles of calling them that and I was an editor who DocError accused of other things like canvassing, I would like to see those diffs because I did not do any of that. - SantiLak (talk) 22:04, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Comment Is it only me that thinks a two-way IBAN would stop this nonsense once and for all? Neither editor is exactly covering themselves with glory here. Black Kite (talk) 20:24, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Black Kite, I hope that it is. IBANs provide no resolution to actual issues and instead may hamper any possibility for resolution to be achieved. There is no reason why these two competent editors cannot work well together if that is needed and if Wikipedia guidelines are followed this could happen. These editors have not been involved in the editing of similar article topics for a while but, if editors are in contact, rules should apply. GregKaye 07:40, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

• I've been through the diffs DocumentError provides in the complaint above, and it seems clear that he hasn't got the message from his 36 hour block. Specific issues:

• Background point 1 - DocumentError characterises this diff as repeatedly denounce me as an "Iranian" "anti-American." The actual quote is editing from a clear pro-Iran, anti-American POV. So not only is it misquoted, I'm pretty sure that doesn't amount to denouncing repeatedly.
• Background point 3 - objects to the summary on this diff, revert utter nonsense edit by user pushing some agenda. The summary might not be the most civil out there, but the edit he was reverting was very clear vandalism, and very likely POV-pushing vandalism at that. Some might think the summary justified in this case. Note that he also apologised for the attitude.
• Background point 3 - DocumentError still doesn't seem to know how to find a diff correctly. There is some complaint about this diff, which covers more than 17 hours of changes at WP:AN/3RR. Not very useful.
• Background point 3 - DocumentError objects to [239] and [240], only one of which is Legacypac's edits because DocumentError still can't produce an accurate diff. As much as we might feel sympathy for the poor, new editor who was 'blasted', it's worth noting that he has since been indeffed as a sock. Not such a poor, new user, after all.
• Background point 3 - the difference with Drmies is now approaching two years old and this is starting to look a lot like throwing mud to see what will stick.
• Background point 3 - once again accuses Legacypac of using the term 'pro-terrorist', complete with a link to a diff which does not contain the term.
• Background point 4a - here 199 he moved the entire page "2014 Military Intervention against ISIL" even though a move discussion on that very topic had just opened two hours before which ultimately was closed as opposing the move - this is outrageously misleading, verging on completely false. The first link is to a diff of Legacypac moving the page on October 6; the second to a move discussion which ran from 11 August to 31 August, in which the debate was between including 'American' or 'United States' in the title.
• Background point 4b - he unilaterally blanked the entire page Siege of Kobanî; Kkj11210 had to revert his unilateral decision to remove all sourced content. However, even a cursory glance through the page history at the time shows this was part of a useful attempt to sort out two pages about the same subject and not intended as vandalism. Again, we're throwing mud to see what sticks.
• Background point 4c - the dispute about the article name seems pretty ridiculous, but nonetheless the move has since gained consensus and the current article title reflects what Legacypac did back in October.

I'd suggest a somewhat longer block is now appropriate. GoldenRing (talk) 03:58, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Thank you GoldenRing for your appraisal. -- PBS (talk) 11:54, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

I note that, according to User:DocumentError, the user is 'grounded by their parents from using the computer.' It's a little hard to know how literally to take this, since the user page also went through 'retired' and 'semi-retired' versions earlier the same day that template was posted. It always seems, to me, tricky to know how to handle these situations; closing this with no action seems to serve as encouragement, while advocating sanctions against the user seems like grave-dancing. Suggestions? GoldenRing (talk) 05:50, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

While looking up the last retirement when faced with possible sanctions (a retirement that lasted less then 2 minutes and consisted of doing over 1000 edits that month) I found where an already blocked IP did say some very inappropriate things, but not at all like he claims two editors on ISIL said though. If he really is a kid, I don't know what to say. It's not fun being on the receiving end of his unsubstantiated attacks. If he acts like this in school I bet he's a punching bag. Legacypac (talk) 08:50, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

How about an Admin closes this as follows (an idea anyway):

• 24 hour block so it gets recorded in his block log for future reference
• Clear statement that the accusations against me in this ANi and the last one were found to be largely unsubstantiated and that he should never launch another unsubstantiated ANi again if he wants to continue editing on Wikipedia. Legacypac (talk) 09:04, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

See this ANI (closed 8 January 2015).

I am closing this ANI. It was initially brought by DocumentError because while DocumentError was temporarily blocked Legacypac placed two messages on DocumentError's talk page (while LP knew that DE was blocked) which could be seen as harassment, particularly as there was a lack of good faith between these two editors. Legacypac has explained that they were autogenerated by the "New Page feed tool" and that it was carelessness and not maliciousness that caused Legacypac to review new pages created by DocumentError. I have weighed the issue and I am satisfied that if one assumes good faith then Legacypac's explanation that the interaction was due to carelessness is acceptable (for the details see here). So there is no point in taking further administrative action over the careless use of this tool. However Legacypac if you are careless in future with additional tools and privileges expect further administrative action (fool me once shame shame on you, try to fool me again and its "malleting" time.^{To use British Army slang})

Legacypac the recent posting which starts "While looking up the..." was unnecessary and inflammatory and indeed could read as a personal attack. It also undermines your defence that you actions during DocumentError's block was just due to carelessness. Although I am closing this ANI, I expect you as a sign of good will to strike thorough you two most recent postings to this section with the time stamps of 08:50 and 09:04, 13 January 2015 as they do more harm than good.

DocumentError this ANI has to an extent boomeranged on you. The chief reason for this is that you have totally ignored the block placed on you by Bishonen and repeated similar allegations in a similar way, particularly in linking to huge slabs of previous ANIs and not the precise diffs you were asked to do in future by Bishonen. Now assuming good faith and that this was because you did not "have the technical knowledge of how to link to diffs within a page that has been archived by sigmabot, and now I have given you a detailed explanation of how to do this (see here), you will have no excuse in future for not providing accurate diffs of talk page conversations. This does not however excuse you for misquoting what someone else has written (as I and GoldenRing) have detailed in this ANI (you must re-read and quote what a person wrote not what you remember them as writing as the two may differ -- eg "pro-Iran" and "Iranian" are not one and the same thing). As GoldenRing has detailed, all your additional accusations against Legacypac did not warren the time to read through them. Remember that administrators are volunteers and usually they have other things they would rather be doing. Wasting their time with voluminous complaints will not endear you to them (also remember the parable of the Peter and the Wolf). In this case, if you had just raised Legacypac's carelessness/maliciousness while you were blocked the ANI would have been focused on that, a resolution would have been quickly found and this ANI would not have boomeranged on you.

If either of you bring an ANI against the other in future neither of you are to refer to perceived wrongdoings of the other before the closure time of this ANI. If you do then expect administrative action.

As Legacypac already has a voluntary interaction ban with DocumentError I expect that to continue (including no interaction with semi-automated processes), Likewise I would expect DocumentError to respect the interaction ban and not make edits like this one. I would also advise DocumentError to continue to stay away from the pages covered by the Wikipedia:General sanctions/Syrian Civil War and Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant for the next six moths, to reduce the likelihood of needing to breach the voluntary interaction ban. Either party may ask another editor to act as a go between to request of the other that the voluntary interaction ban is lifted once they feel that it is no longer serving a useful purpose.

Both editors are to leave a message on my talk page within 24 hours of their next edit on Wikipedia to inform me if they agree to all these voluntary conditions on which I close this ANI. If either party does not agree then I will bring an ANI to allow the community to decide what to do.

-- PBS (talk) 15:51, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Disruptive editing, POV Pushing, User attacks after last warning, Editwarring.

The user Gsfelipe94 is disruptively editing wikipedia.

Last Edit War Warnings

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Gsfelipe94/Archive_1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Gsfelipe94

Edit wars after last warning

• https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2014_Copa_do_Brasil&action=history (shows no intent to resolve dispute)
• https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=UFC_Fight_Night:_Machida_vs._Dollaway&diff=prev&oldid=639013191 (POV pushing with user attack)

User attack warnings

• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Gsfelipe94/Archive_1
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Gsfelipe94

User attacks after last warning

• https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=UFC_182&diff=prev&oldid=641979120
• https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=UFC_Fight_Night:_Machida_vs._Dollaway&diff=prev&oldid=639013191

This user has ignored warnings and will probably continue to ignore warnings. This user needs to know that their pattern of editing is unacceptable. I'm also only showing edits that I have found after the first "last warnings". There are probably others before then.

Statements from other users

• I've been a victim of a personal attack from Gsfelipe94 and I feel that a 14 day block would be the right amount of time for him to rethink his actions and learn how to be a better peer to his fellow Wikipedians. An indef block would not be necessary as his contributions to Wikipedia have been useful. However, a block over a period of time should spark him to learn better etiquette when in diagreement with fellow Wikipedians and not resort to personal attacks and disruptive edits. WWE Batman131 (talk) 19:35, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

See also

• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Disruptive_editing

"Disruptive editors sometimes attempt to evade disciplinary action by using several practices when disrupting articles:

• Their (disruptive) edits occur over a long period of time; in this case, no single edit may be clearly disruptive, but the overall pattern is disruptive.
• Their edits often avoid gross breaches of civility, by refraining from personal attacks, while still interfering with civil and collaborative editing meant to improve the article.
• Their edits remain limited to a small number of pages that very few people watch.

Nonetheless, such disruptive editing violates site policy."

Please leave a talkback on my talk page if you wish for me to respond. Gamebuster19901 (talk) 15:56, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Didn't post anything here, but all of my current statements are on Gamebuster19901's talk page. Thanks. Gsfelipe94 (talk) 15:57, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Admin intervention needed for Jackthomas321

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Admin guidance need with regard to user Jackthomas321 who has a prior history of assuming bad faith of other editors [241]. User recently accused Krimuk90 of being a member of a pro-Hindu extremist group, simply because Krimuk tried to scale back excessive puffery, specifically the excessive attention Jack was giving to the various politicians who spoke out in favor of PK (film). From my perspective it came off as highly promotional.

I had to chastise him about his attack on Krimuk, and I thought that my subsequent responses in the discussion helped him to understand the matter. Later, he called another user "fool", which I again admonished him for. He backpedaled and then apologized in an edit summary, although I'm not convinced his explanation is genuine, given his propensity to sling insults like, "u don't need to tell a smarter person than u about it", "idiot. I'm genuine, not phoney like u. Take ur phoneyness & stick it up ur A**, loser." "Flyer22, I only edit pages which has greatness written on it. Ex, Hercules=real man, true strength&courage,has heart. But You, loser FlyerLucy(opposite of greatness=low life shit). U r only good at putting shit on greatness. Ok dung, carry on with it Oh, and there was this jewel in August 2014. It's a cringe inducing must-read.

Most recently Jack has accused TheRedPenOfDoom and myself of being paid to remove second week and third week box office gross content from PK (film), a claim that is entirely emotionally motivated, not rationally motivated. We were in the process of discussing the matter, and I was actually starting to reconsider my stance when Jack jumped right to personal attacks. User is now resorting to incivil "internet tough-guy" language that runs completely against WP:CIVIL and WP:AGF. I don't think it gets more clear that this user has serious, perhaps insurmountable difficulty understanding the "community" aspect of community, which is best exemplified by this comment: "When something is wrong, a Real Man gets angry whereas a coward behaves polite." Thanks, Cyphoidbomb (talk) 00:33, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

In that last diff, this editor goes beyond personal attacks to physical threats: " ... but it actually would be a hard punch on his face if the wrong person is in front of me & making such silly arguments ...", I think a line has been crossed. Administrators? Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 09:06, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

...and "I know ur response will be "I am telling admin to block user Jack". I don't give a shit. I've been blocked before. I will never stop punching wrong people" sounds very problematic too. Cavarrone 09:36, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

we are here to collaborate with other editors This sentence is the joke of the day. I will tell u the meaning of "not co-operating/dictatorship' which is exactly u guys are doing. A User added completely valid stuff on the film page PK Film, u named it 'fancruft' & deleted it. When he added again, u named it 'fancruft' & deleted again. Then when i brought up the issue on the PK film Talk page, TheRedPenOfDoom & Cyphoidbomb are giving me the most silliest excuses imaginable for 'why we will not add it.' This is the meaning of 'not co-operating'. Bottomline is.. wiki editors do not allow certain things to be added if it doesn't meet their hidden/cunning agendas. Cyphoidbomb, regarding your complaint here on Admin's page, that's another joke. It further proves my claims. The topic of discussion here is "deleting film records for no reason." But here, You are talking about the way i talked several months ago for which i have already been blocked before. & also instead of talking about adding records, you guys are talking about "it would be punch on his face if someone makes such silly arguments with me" This further proves that, "you guys have no intention in doing the right thing" & u resort to meaningless comments & excuses. Jackthomas321 (talk) 10:05, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

The purpose of a block is to prevent the behavior from happening again. You didn't seem to learn from your previous block, since once again, you are requiring us to address your significant problems with incivility. We would otherwise be having a normal discussion with disparate opinions, if the discussion hadn't been derailed by your quick, irrational temper. A smart person, which you have no shyness of claiming to be, might notice that the common variable in the unpleasantness you've experienced over the months...is you. There is no dictatorship. One user, TRPoD, had a strong reaction to the content you were adding, I expressed an opinion that unless the content was noteworthy, (and it may have been), then it probably shouldn't be included. You've mushed two different users' different opinions into a conspiracy pudding, and then worked yourself up into a red hot lather about it. And now there are multiple confused ideas in your head that I simply do not have the time or energy to go down the list to correct. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 10:43, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Cyphoidbomb, Please spare me from this alleged polite talk. You & TRPoD clearly pushed the matter sideways stating "It(2nd&3rd week records) will not be added on wiki". & When i've shown proof that they are added on wiki at several places, user TRPoD again pushed the matter sideways(ignoring it altogether). If someone raised a valid point, what should u do? You must say "You have made a valid point. Sorry for the inconvenience. We will add it immediately". That's called polite conversation. Instead of that you said (1) I don't see the value of listing the collections.... (2) Stop wagging your angry little finger..... its an apples-to-oranges comparison (2)lots of crappy fancruft articles that need to be cleaned up... (3)start your own fanpage website off Wikipedia and you can primp and fluff all of the movies you want to (4)Nobody cares about week by week updates except for fanboiz....and many more (when infact it wasn't week-by-week updates, they were records created which were added in many other film pages too, which i have shown). When you have no sense in how to talk politely, then do not expect it from others. Your comments clearly shows that "I do not care about those records. I will not add it". I being a smart man can sense the intentions when somebody is saying something. Since your intentions were wrong(which is... i will not add it), i made accusations. I am on the right side of the conversation & u guys are on the wrong side. I don't care what u think/perceive about me. Finally, if anyone in their right mind, reads the whole conversation on PK Talk Page, then they will know that you two guys dismissed adding records in each of their comments. And my 2nd last comment on the talk page which starts with I am not here for a conversation.... shows all evidence of my claims. Jackthomas321 (talk) 11:45, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

It's not a matter of "right" and "wrong" sides, it's a matter of being able to work collaboratively with others, especially when you disagree with their editorial judgements. If Jack Thomas is not willing to make a immediate, significant adjustment to their behavior, admin sanctions are appropriate here. NE Ent 12:08, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

I guess u can't understand english. I have made it clear that... PK Talk Page conversation proves that they are the ones who are not co-operating & not doing the right thing. I've done everything right from my side. I added records on PK film page & when deleted repeatedly, i brought it up on Talk page with valid points, but they said "they will not add it". In english, that is called "NON COOPERATION". If editing Wiki Is not a matter of "right" and "wrong" then there is no meaning for anything in life, let alone a conversation. You make such statements which makes me think "Do these people even have brains?" "Right" & wrong is the only important thing in every aspect of life. When one can't identify what is right & wrong, its not possible to do any work, let alone editing wikipedia. Even after my accusations, the accused haven't shown any signs whatsoever to do the right thing & Instead they resorted to putting the blame on me & asking some admin to block me, when the right thing to do is.. to block them. If i start deleting everything on wikipedia from this moment, just because i don't feel its important to me, is it not wrong? Who should be blocked? People who are deleting or people who are questioning them? What a bunch of Pathetic people. Looks like they will never learn to become better. Go, Do whatever pleases you. Jackthomas321 (talk) 14:43, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

1) I initially misunderstood what you were complaining about, because I only glossed over your note. Sloppy on my part. I should have read it more clearly, and I apologize. I chalk that up as a natural human resistance to someone I'd already experienced as being quick to anger, being irrational, and having a propensity for over-promotion of this film. This is why my response reads "If nothing noteworthy happened in the second and third weeks, I don't see the value of listing the collections." Record breaking would be noteworthy, ignoring for a moment the rampant corruption that makes verification of record-breaking in Indian cinema very difficult, or even the disparities with PK's Rentrak-blessed box office figures as detailed in this article from The Telegraph.)

2) You, unaware that I had misinterpreted your comment, because you too were hastily reading, built a cognitive wall and jumped right to your own conclusions: "I don't buy a thing you said... Nobody is a fool here...people are hell bent on trying to delete records of this film every day."

3) By your third post, you were warming up the personal attacks. "That page has so many records mentioned that it puts you two into shame for trying to delete records on this page."

4) By your fourth post, you were well into the personal attacks, and the train was derailed. "You people are paid to do such illegal acts." " Its just like every other website with corrupted regular editors" At this point we had a new focus for our attention, your anger. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 19:39, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

I've blocked this user indefinitely. Previous blocks are mentioned by editors above but I didn't see any in the logs. Protonk (talk) 22:45, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Blocks were on IPs, predating their creating a registered account. NE Ent 22:56, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Note: NE Ent and others, looking at Jackthomas321's previous IPs, including this one, I don't see where he was blocked before this indefinite block. Flyer22 (talk) 08:44, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Flyer22 Maybe we have a sock operator? I'm open for ideas. My first thought while sparring with him was that it might be Wiki-senetor, but the behavior didn't quite match. Although I do have a faint memory of Wiki-senetor bragging about how smart he is. (Rolling eyes). Cyphoidbomb (talk) 09:08, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Now socking. [242] Cyphoidbomb, can you or another admin tidy up? --NeilN ^{talk to me} 16:30, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

I would love to, @NeilN:, but I am not an admin. My RfA was a failure. Thanks for opening old wounds, dude! Cyphoidbomb (talk) 16:41, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

@Cyphoidbomb: Ack. Oops, sorry. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 16:43, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

User:Sayerslle

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

User:Sayerslle has conflict of interest in Dieudonné M'bala M'bala. 85.241.122.28 (talk) 16:28, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

what are you talking about? what conflict of interest? I am adding RS material to an article and being met with a form of censorship. There is a report in the independent, I think is relevant and notable to this mans biography. what conflict of interest ffs? Sayerslle (talk) 16:34, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Reporting IP user is engaging in edit warring, and deems a COI exists if an editor is Christian or a member of of the EU- which is neither here, nor there[243]. Boomerang, anyone? ScrapIronIV (talk) 16:56, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Yup. The IP seems to think that being 'possibly Christian' creates a conflict of interest. Just plain nuts. Block the IP on competence grounds as well as for edit-warring... AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:05, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Wp:personal attacks, wp:harassment and WP:TPNO violations by User:E-960 continue

See also, earlier report: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive866#Personal abuse and anti-Australian slurs by User:E-960

High visibility article Poland has been marred by disruption for months by fringe nationalists. Some of the accounts were confirmed as sockpuppets recently, therefore, caution is in order. The last on the scene is User:E-960, an account created 2014-08-19 specifically for edit-warring in Eastern Europe. (Ping @ User:Sandstein who keeps track of it.)

Only a few weeks earlier, on 20 December 2014 User:E-960 was reported to ANI by User:Nick-D for abuse of editing privileges (see above) and on the same day warned by User:Calidum for violations of 3RR. User:Diannaa warned him again on 21 December 2014 about possible sanctions for his WP:OR/3RR. His notorious abuse of editing privileges therefore, prompted me to file a new SPI report as soon as his bullying extended to Talk:Poland where a slew of socks operated earlier. User:E-960 went berserk as a result of my report,[244] which makes me think that he might be a sock of someone other than the ones mentioned, and therefore feels immune to the outcome of the report. Also, because he wasn't sanctioned earlier, his bullying got really extreme this time: with repeat attacks on my talk page,[245] [246] massive, abusive WP:SHOUTING in Talk:Poland,[247] [248] [249] lying through one's teeth,[250][251] belittling editors who warn him of possible consequences,[252] (ping @ User:Iryna Harpy), misrepresenting facts,[253] outright vulgarity,[254] and defacing talkpage posts whenever possible.[255] Please do something, because this is simply unbearable. Thanks, Poeticbent talk 19:22, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Er, I'm not keeping track of anything here. After a brief look at the diffs, there may well be grounds for admin action here, although the tone of your request is also concerning. You may request discretionary sanctions per WP:AC/DS and WP:ARBEE, if you make a request at WP:AE and the other editor has previously been alerted as described at WP:AC/DS. If not, you can alert them now and request sanctions if any problems reoccur.  Sandstein  19:49, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks Sandstein. Please explain. Should I file a request for discretionary sanctions even before this report is addressed? I'm still waiting for the results of my CheckUser request. E-960 is new account with only a handful of edits, all of them in the area of WP:ARBEE. It might be a sleeper account for edit warring elsewhere, i.e. with User:Lute88 and others. I'm not sure whether to wait for feedback. Much obliged, Poeticbent talk 21:44, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

That's up to you.  Sandstein  22:39, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

• I'd like to say something in my defense. All I did was update a couple of images on the Poland page in the Military and Transportation sections (just better pics of same subject matter, no major changes) and fixed one of the "stats" in the Infobox. Right away, user Poeticbent reverted all my edits. These were not major alterations that caused POV or Undue Weight. When a strong debate ensued, user Poeticbent started to link me to past sockpuppet cases and filed a Checkuser request where I was openly accused of homophobia, vandalism, promoting my hometown (not sure how I did that, when I only added a picture of a train, an airplane and a military vehicle) and sockpuppetry linked to 3 past cases. I'd like to say that false accusations are also a form of personal attacks. I'm sick of "senior" edits who protect their their past edits, or bully new editors even when the material like the "stats" I fixed were previously incorrect! --E-960 (talk) 20:12, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

• This is one of the problems in WP; new users are not joining the Wikipedia project or dropping out; one cause of that are "senior" editors who squat on articles and challenge even the most basic updates made by new users! The changes I made, were in no way controversial in nature! This is Wikipedia, right? Change is part of the process. --E-960 (talk) 20:44, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

And here's a selection of quotes from the most recent posts by User:E-960 (re: Poland): "WHAT PART OF THAT IMAGE CAPTION DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND", "What the heck?????", "Stop embarrassing yourself!!", "Stop screwing up the article!" So much for a "debate". Poeticbent talk 22:26, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Stop being a bully, why did you just now insert your comment before mine at 21:44, 9 January 2015 (UTC)??? How about following Wiki etiquette, if i wrote a statement don't write yours in front of it, but add it in the order in which it was written? Form the start your behavior has been directed at instigating other users, and then trying to get them blocked. What you just did now is a perfect example you belittling and instigating new users. --E-960 (talk) 22:37, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

I'd like to endorse this report - E-960's standard conduct seems to be to abuse editors who disagree with him or her in fairly extreme terms and accuse them of forming some kind of conspiracy of which he or she is the victim, and there's a clear Polish nationalist element to this (the issue I reported here a couple of weeks ago included E-960 edit warring to preserve the supposed "native name" for the Allies of World War II in the article on the topic). This is classic WP:ARBEE type conduct, and is entirely unhelpful. There are more examples of this at Talk:World War II#Discussion and Talk:World War II#Infobox Debate: "Collapsible List of all the Nations" option (also Poland-related in that the change to the infobox under discussion included the removal of Poland from it). E-960 has been repeatedly asked to moderate their language, but seemingly with no effect. Nick-D (talk) 06:23, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

(That said, I see no reason why this has to be address through the cumbersome AE process: I think that its entirely within the scope of responses from an uninvolved admin given it boils down to gross and sustained incivility and POV pushing) Nick-D (talk) 09:22, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

• I am also a little annoyed at the tone of this request, the diffs given are much tamer than the accusations you have levelled. Also I would caution you against labelling E-960's edits as "homophobic" unless the checkuser results turn up positive, as it is an extremely unnecessary and serious accusation. That being said, I also hold serious reservations about E-960's behaviour since the last ANI thread; he has shown little to no behavioural improvements and seems to have a combative attitude that is not compatible with this project's aims. —Dark 11:00, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

What is happening here is a deliberate attack agains my profile. This is down right malicious to accuse me of being a Polish nationalist, because I changed a couple of images on the Poland page (same subject matter only better quality pics) How is that at all controversial? (see the talk page of what I actually debated) These "senior" editors are simply protecting their past edits and trying to use underhand methods of trying to get a new user blocked by throwing labels at me… user Poeticbent and Nick-D already called me a "nationalist", "homophobe", "sockpuppet" and "liar". When is this going to stop? I will remind everyone that user Nick-D is the editor who objected the use of the word "Genecide" in the WWII World War II/Archive 49, opting for a more ambiguous term "mass killings" (and my past disagreement with him last month was also due to his efforts to remove/sanitize another WWII related article)! If not for new users like myself, Wikipedia would be a collection of "established" editors who push their views on the entire WP, and with the Wikipedia scandal which included paid editors, government agencies, and special interest groups/individual pushing POV, you should not simply take the word or accusations of these "established" editor, but look at the actual facts on the Talk:Poland page of what was debated in this case. If I started to lose my temper I can apologize, but this should in no way suggest that I accept the bullying tactics of these "senior" editors. --E-960 (talk) 11:23, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

This is exactly, how the manipulations by User:E-960 (during his WP:ARBEE wars) have been performed from day one; a textbook situation where the culprit would not stop the abuse even if confronted by his victims but instead, would accuse them of being the "real" abusers. User:E-960 keeps on edit-warring while trying to defend himself: WP:OR, WP:OR with a lie in summary, R/V with ad hominem and a lie in summary, R/V, same lie, and on-and-on ... all brand new violations. His blanket reverts – coupled with more personal attacks – go on while he writes his defense. But here's where it gets more tricky: User:E-960 claims he only inserts "better quality pics" while, for example, replacing a major Polish seaport in Szczecin with a private company in Wrocław (home-base of Globetrotter1918, see below). BTW, I never called User:E-960 a homophobe. I spoke of homophobia only in defining the interaction between two accounts suspected of sockpuppetry of which the first one (!) – a sock master with grisly history – belonged to a homophobe. The second one being investigated (User:E-960, see below), was the subject of my inquiry. Please read the quote from my SPI report:

Interaction between Globetrotter1918 and E-960

1. 9 September 2014 Globetrotter1918 removes the photo of the Pride Parade with a summary: homosexual propagande (sic)
2. 6 January 2015 E-960 makes exactly the same edit by removing the Pride Parade but this time, removing also the founder of Feminism in Poland. The user seems to be learning fast how to better game the system, and this time around, adds a convoluted and dishonest edit summary to diffuse the suspicion of sockpuppetry. (end of quote)
   

More from Globetrotter1918 SpI archive

...see how far he's willing to go for revenge.[256], [257], [258]
Meanwhile, the E-960 abuse goes on even as we discuss his case. Please note, I'm not a professional investigator. It took me days to compile the report against Globetrotter1918 a.k.a. Retrone a.k.a. Germania Breslau ... all of whom edit-warred in WP:ARBEE for months across several projects, not one, promoting extreme-right politics. E-960 is new on the scene. He seems to know way more about Wikipedia than a new user would. It might be a throw-away account trying to do as much damage as possible in minimum time just to have it memorialized in the article edit history. I've seen it before. Poeticbent talk 18:25, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Old: Port of Szczecin

New: PKP Intercity train

• These accusations are a nonsense. This is the image of the Port of Szczecin that I replaced… why? Because it shows a highway overpass in the foreground not a port, and the port is only mentioned in a list, not discussed in depth. I replaced it with the image of a high speed train, because this item is discussed at length in the article. Also, only images of the train in the Wroclaw train station are available for use in Wiki Commons, others are not of good quality [259], so it should not be interpreted that I'm promoting a town just cause I used this image. This is absurd... how is this proof of "nationalist" leaning or suckpuppety on my part? Also, what does user Poeticbent even mean by the term "Interaction", I never interacted with those sock puppets, and I'm not one. --E-960 (talk) 10:33, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

@ DarkFalls and Sandstein. Could I request the closure of this incident, the above mentioned CheckUser did not yield any definitive evidence of me being connected to past sockpuppets. Also, in the CheckUser discussion Poeticbent (who checked my IP's location) did state that my address is in a different location than the past sockpuppets, who were from the city of Wrocław. Thus, proving that I'm NOT a sockpuppet! As I stated earlier, I'm willing to apologize to the Wiki Community for losing my temper in this debate. But, I would also like to see user Poeticbent receive a warning for personal attacks against me and for reverting en masse edits made to the Poland page, by assuming that every new editor is somehow connected to a past sockpuppet, especially in edits that were in no way controversial in nature. --E-960 (talk) 21:40, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

E-960, I have already commented on your talk page that I'm not particularly concerned by whether you are a sock, but I am concerned as to your behaviour even as the sole contributor editing from your account. Despite my issuing a warning after uncivil behaviour and casting aspersions as to the character of Poeticbent (which were met with further assumptions as the motives of anyone who didn't 'side' with you), you continued your unabashed diatribes on the Talk:Poland page.

As regards it being impossible for you to be a sock because you live in another city: I've lived in a lot of places, and not all in Australia, much less the city I currently reside in in Australia. It's the editing pattern and tone that is more likely to set off regular editors as feeling that your behaviour is reminiscent of a previous blocked editor. It's not unusual for regulars to be justifiably unsettled when a relatively new user with little experience charges at articles that have been edit-warred over many times over the years. At this point I'm still only hearing remonstrations from you and a desire for punitive actions against someone you've decided is a bad faith editor, despite your having said that you are prepared to apologise to the Wikipedia community. I'm sorry, but that strikes me as being an ingenuous attempt at any form of apology. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:45, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

@ Iryna Harpy , User Poeticbent accused me of nationalism, homophobia, sockpuppetry and lying. What I edited was in no way connected to the edit warring issues regarding the city of Wrocław from the past. That alone proves I'm, NOT the sockpuppet. BTW: I made edits back on October 24th (see Talk Page) they war all reverted by User Poeticbent. And guess what I just left it at that and did not make a battle out of it. Now, I won't back down when a "senior" user keeps reverts any and all edits. Even when they are not controversial in any way. User Poeticbent is not acting in good faith towards other editors accusing everyone of being a sockpuppet, and then mischaracterizing the issue. As noted above my edits are not all that controversial either. Finally, why didn't the other "senior" editors who regularly edit the Poland page, also disagree with my edits, and voice their disapproval on the talk page, why no one else thinks that my edits may be related to a sockpuppet? These reverts are only being pushed by user Poeticbent. --E-960 (talk) 05:42, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

• Follow up including Who's Who, at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/WKS Śląsk Wrocław Poeticbent talk 18:04, 13 January 2015 (UTC)