Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2008 December 14

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The result was keep. (non-admin closure) Ron Ritzman (talk) 01:32, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Captain Advocate Fazlul Karim

He has significant role in the Hisory of Bangladesh

We respect him, but do u think a separate page can be created?
This is not just a biography of first class constructor but family history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Abdullah Harun Jewel (talk • contribs) 00:13, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Nominator made b0rked afd which said "We respect him, but do u think a separate page can be created? This is not just a biography of first class contructor but family histry.". Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • ^{(Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP)} 00:31, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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Weak Keep Mayor of a small city of 50,000 (Cox's Bazar) That's arguably sufficient for notability. The contents is probably over-detailed, but that's for editing. DGG (talk) 16:28, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep As the subject was first chairman of cox's bazar, founder of Tamarisk Forest and pioneer in developing Cox's Bazar,([1]) sufficiently asserts notability. The contents are now in better shape.--NAHID 19:15, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Nahid, the link you gave above is a mirror of the Wikipedia article Cox's Bazar. --Ragib (talk) 15:46, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Weak keep - the article lacks references. I only voted keep for the claim about the mayorship, but my vote depends on the availability of a reference to back that information. Most of the article sounds like a personal memorial written by a family member (First under DawoodKarim nick, and now under the sockpuppet indranidutta). --Ragib (talk) 20:59, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. NAHID has pointed to a reference that he was "the first Chairman (after independence from the British) of Cox's Bazar". If you didn't keep removing it that reference would be in the article. Phil Bridger (talk) 14:28, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Did you *Read* the linked page? It is a mirror of the Wikipedia article Cox's Bazar. I will definitely remove any such mirrors from the article, as well as other unrelated external links. --Ragib (talk) 15:46, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Yes, I did read the page but I didn't compare it with Cox's Bazar. I see you are right. Maybe if you had pointed out that the link was a mirror in your edit summary when you removed it an edit war could have been avoided. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:24, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Weak Keep per DGG. But it definitely needs more refs. Maybe the creator has some newspaper clippings lying around that we could use. Graymornings_(talk) 21:46, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Cox's Bazar may be a small town, but its with the longest beach in the world (which is already in the natural seven wonders list), and Captain Advocate Fazlul Karim started developing it as a tourist spot from the forties with his own money and money from foreign donations collected on his own identity. He had donates land worth millions for the benefit and well being of the people of Cox's Bazar. So people should know him. May be the article can be edited, as I am not experienced in doing so. I have news paper cuttings, his personal diaries etc to support them. If people do not know him, how can we tell them by printing books while politicians are always snatching the credits for others' work. But I don't know how to present them. Please advice me on this. Thanks.--Dawoodkarim (talk) 18:53, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Great. I think everyone agrees here that Mr. Karim is notable. All we need are references for the article. Newspaper cuttings are fine as reference, just mention the news article title, (author name if available), date and the name of the news paper. --Ragib (talk) 19:27, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - and allow time for sources to be found. The other issues can be dealt with through editting. And if kept, the name needs to be changed to conform to the manual of style. Note a Fazlul Karim already exists so disambiguation will be needed. -- Whpq (talk) 17:29, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was redirect to Sudden Impact. Stifle (talk) 11:06, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Jennifer Spencer

Character in single movie; little character development given therefore little chance of article expansion. Best incorporated in the page for the movie Sudden Impact. —Goodtimber (walk/talk) 23:56, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Merge per nom. Unlikely that there will be substantial new material for this article. --Patar knight - ^chat/_{contributions} 01:39, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Be bold and merge You don't need to a deletion discussion to do it, especially in such an obvious case as this one. =- Mgm|^(talk) 09:35, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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Delete as already covered in Sudden Impact. AfD is notthe place to request a merge. The nom might best have gone to Help:Merging and moving pages and then tagged the article for a proposed merge. An AfD is not required unless a deletion is the sole request. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 21:40, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merge & Redirect: per nom. Ryan4314 (talk) 04:38, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to Sudden Impact and merge at editorial discretion. Eluchil404 (talk) 08:09, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Delete by User:TheCoffee. Lenticel ^(talk) 01:41, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

CCNSHS Graduates Around the World

A list of people with no indications of notability. I am aware that there are many other articles on alumni of other institutes on Wikipeda, eg List of Harvard University people, but they are restricted to people who reach a standard of notability, and who for the most part have Wikipedia articles. This article may qualify for speedy deletion under A7 gadfium 23:38, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy delete - clearly not something that should be on Wikipedia. No demonstration of notability whatsoever. dramatic (talk) 23:49, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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Delete Non notable graduates of non notable school. Doc Strange^MailboxLogbook 02:22, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Wikipedia is not a webhost. See the lead section.--Lenticel ^(talk) 05:44, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, it does seem that the school is using Wikipedia as its webhost for this project. Wikipedia is not your personal webhost. Doc Strange^MailboxLogbook 05:58, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per all of the above. WP:SNOW? Bearian (talk) 18:00, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Please make it quick before they sign it with dedications a la yearbook. Starczamora (talk) 22:10, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Or for that matter, before they even start listing the medals and awards they received during their last year in high school :P --- Tito Pao (talk) 00:55, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was speedy keep. Clearly notable, references added and no negative content. the wub "?!" 12:29, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Charlie McCoy

Entirely unreferenced biography of a living person. Marked for reference problems for more than a year with zero improvement. Mikeblas (talk) 23:30, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy keep per WP:SOFIXIT. Being an unreferenced BLP isn't alone a reason to delete. He's won a Grammy Award, which means at least one criterion of WP:MUSIC is met. According to this he's been inducted into his state's hall of fame, which is certainly notable too. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • ^{(Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP)} 23:40, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: per TPH. Schuym1 (talk) 23:44, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy Keep singer has had eight top 40 hits on the Billboard country charts, that doesn't fail WP:MUSIC. --Caldorwards4 (talk) 23:50, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy keep. There is no contentious or potentially harmful information in this article which is what BLP was designed for. WP:SOFIXIT applies too. It's clearly a valid article, so it should be improved by providing those sources rather than taking the easy way out. - Mgm|^(talk) 09:34, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy keep for the bold editing from TPH and crew. Grammy Award winner, easily passes WP:MUSIC#C8. Esradekan Gibb ^"Talk" 11:42, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy keep meets WP:MUSIC Eric444 (talk) 12:28, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Delete. The consensus below is that his cited accomplishments are not quite sufficient for encyclopedic notability, but that could change if additional, third-party sources can be found. Eluchil404 (talk) 08:13, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

David Karle

This article is marked for deletion discussion at the request of the author (Clarification note: not because the author requests the page be deleted, but because I offered to put the page up for discussion rather than CSD because I'm not a military expert), who is also the article's subject.

I feel the article fails to meet basic notability criteria. The subject has received the Bronze Star, Army Commendation Medal (with Valor Device), and Combat Infantryman's Badge, though I can't independently verify these. It's my understanding that these awards alone are not enough to establish notability for a soldier, and that bronze stars are awarded to a such a large amount of people that the person must have done something else notable. Other than the awards, the subject has written an article. So, what we have is a bronze star and an article written, and a COI case. I propose speedy deletion, but welcome comments (especially from those familiar with the notability of military decorations). FlyingToaster 23:04, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Note - I added a "reference" section so the references could show up for review. Ottava Rima (talk) 23:07, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - There is a vague possibility that notability under other grounds may be argued for or established. Currently it seems to go on him having served in a military and we don't give automatic notability to staff sergeants or to the medals he has received, to do so would open us up to a veritable deluge of articles. Obviously this is not to take away from what the staff sergeant has achieved, just an unfortunate limitation on what we can reasonably do. --Narson ~ Talk • 23:12, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep/weak Keep the notability is not as as sergeant, though the Bronze Star is the 4th highest US combat decoration; the notability is for the report Winning on the Ground. Based on the talk page, the implication in the nomination that the subject desires to have the article deleted is not correct. It appear that he is rather asking for afd rather than simply accept the speedy deletion, which is something else entirely. In any case, while the claim to an award such as this may or may not be enough for afd, it is certainly enough to prevent speedy. I urge the nominator to correct his nomination and remove the sentence at the top which gives the incorrect impression DGG (talk) 23:33, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

DGG, you are correct that the author requested discussion rather than a CSD, and I apologize if this was not clear in my summary - I have corrected this with a note. It was not my intention to mislead on his intention. Regardless, I feel we should be looking at this for notability criteria rather than intention. I consider the author of this article to be a highly biased party, as it is about himself, and would like to look at his medals and the article on their own merit. So DGG, my question would be if this article is notable. Writing one article in general is not, but if the article truly has wide influence, it could be argued. FlyingToaster 23:44, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would question how notable it is to write a briefing paper/policy paper, which is what that looks like. How many civil servants write similar papers every week? It is on a few reading lists, indeed, but the journal itself is pretty non notable. --Narson ~ Talk • 23:56, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Note: Narson is referring "Winning on the Ground," which is the article subject's claim to fame. It appears to be a publication for internal military use, and "for official use only" is stamped on every page. You can see it at Wikileaks. FlyingToaster 00:56, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete The Bronze star is widely awarded, and simply because someone was awarded one doesn't mean that that person should get a whole page to themselves. Also, an Official use only book is not a claim to fame. Many People write books and get them published yearly. --Riotrocket8676 (talk · contribs) 02:13, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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Delete Notability not demonstrated. Multiple reliable sources establishing notability would help. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 02:12, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Hmmm I'm really on the fence with this, if someone can provide a source on the cultural impact of the article he wrote, then I'm a keeper. Ryan4314 (talk) 08:49, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The article was for internal use by the military only, so I doubt we'll see much cultural impact. Maybe military policy impact, but I'm not sure how we'd establish that. FlyingToaster 10:16, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The impact would be expected to come from the effect of the leaked article after it was leaked-- Karle subsequently became a conservative commentator as Dave Karle, not David: see [2], and I think is possibly notable as such. But third party sources for notability of this are needed. Changed to Weak Keep as I have not yet looked for the sources. DGG (talk) 16:46, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Toaster, an impact on the military would make it notable too, although you're right I'm not sure how you'd establish that. Yes, I too am leaning towards a keep. Just another thought, if the article is kept it might be worth reporting this situation to BLP or wherever it is they deal with people contributing to articles about themselves. Ryan4314 (talk) 17:11, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think the article has to make the case for the notability. It doesn't. If he was clearly notable and the article was just so flawed as to not show that, that would be one thing, but I think his notability is pretty borderline anyway. --Narson ~ Talk • 11:43, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I echo what Narson said. David Karle might have an internally published Military Article, but tons of people do. There is a complete lack of notability here. Delete! Riotrocket8676 (talk) 03:02, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Delete. Tiptoety ^talk 05:14, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Glype

Only sources are its own site. No reliable sources, google news hits, etc. No alternatives have their own articles.... _David ^WS _(contribs) 22:41, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, no reliable sources -> no article. --fvw * 22:45, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: Does not show notability per WP:NOTABILITY. Schuym1 (talk) 23:28, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete No reliable, third-party sources in the article, nor any available on the web (Google News) to assert its notability. Arbitrarily0 ^(talk) 23:33, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. BJ^Talk 04:38, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

List of Minnesota rap musicians

Overly narrow list, myspace spam. Was tagged {{db-bio}} but clearly isn't A7 material. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • ^{(Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP)} 22:18, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete per WP:SALAT. Way too narrow of a topic. Tavix (talk) 22:58, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete part persoanl essay, part very narrow list. Redundant to several categories. Doc Strange^MailboxLogbook 23:28, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - rap should probably be included in this. Eóin (talk) 00:54, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - A list of rappers who were born in the state of Minnesota... Extremely useless listcruft _David^WS _(contribs) 01:37, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- List of US rappers is obviously too large to be useful. How would you suggest to subdivide those rappers?- Mgm|^(talk) 09:30, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. BJ^Talk 05:05, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Bearclaw Coffee

Non-notable chain, founded in 2002 with only a very small # of locations in Ann Arbor. No reliable sources found. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • ^{(Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP)} 21:58, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per WP:CORP. --fvw * 22:00, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: Doesn't show notability per WP:CORP. Schuym1 (talk) 22:14, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete, fails notability per WP:CORP. Esradekan Gibb ^"Talk" 23:09, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Fails notability. Can it be rescued? Only if it's really notable. Geoff ^T ^C 19:40, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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Comment: I did not see anything wrong with this over a year ago, but now I see some issues. It could use some better sourcing. Rescue it? Bearian (talk) 18:04, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See 19 Google news hits, for example. Bearian (talk) 18:06, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Keep - although local in nature, it does appear to have attracted some amount of press coverage (that aren't press releases). It has been noominated for a local business award, and covered [3], [4]. -- Whpq (talk) 17:44, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was A7, nac. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • ^{(Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP)} 04:16, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Search For Terrestrial Intelligence

I can't find any reliable sources that show notability. Fails WP:CORP.Schuym1 (talk) 21:39, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete Agreed, Google news brings up nothing, the record label doesn't meet notability guidelines. Rtyq2 (talk) 21:58, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
A7 Three red link acts signed to it. If not for the roster list I'd say it fails the TenPoundHammer rule of effort. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • ^{(Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP)} 23:36, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was redirect to List_of_Silent_Hill_characters#Cybil_Bennett. (non-admin closure) Ron Ritzman (talk) 05:01, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Cybil Bennett

Article fails notability and verifiability, save for a brief mention by Gay Gamer. Remaining article content is a summary of plot details from other articles and original research. Kung Fu Man (talk) 21:40, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Well, I assume the silent hill game itself could be considered a source for verifiability. As for notability however... redirect to Silent Hill. --fvw * 22:03, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to List of Silent Hill characters#Cybil Bennett for now, no burning need for a separate article. Someone another 00:36, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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Redirect to List of Silent Hill characters#Cybil Bennett, as noted there doesn't appear to be a benefit in having this character in a separate article, as well as the notability issues. Icemotoboy (talk) 22:28, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to List of Silent Hill characters#Cybil Bennett, due to a lack of coverage in reliable third-party sources. Can't meet our guidelines. Randomran (talk) 08:56, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see any harm in the Cybil article staying. She wasn't a one time character. She did appear in the movie and Silent Hill: Play Novel. I don't want to start a ten year edit war. If you decide to delete it, let us know. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.106.54.27 (talk) 01:52, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was speedy delete under WP:CSD#G3. Ioeth (talk contribs twinkle friendly) 21:39, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Habolgotten

Some made up word that has literally no sources outside of Wikipedia. I attempted to have it speedied, but apparently it's not speedy criteria for some reason and was replaced with a prod. Predictably, said prod was removed by an SPA account. So...I'm nominating it here. CyberGhostface (talk) 21:39, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete as something that really shouldn't have made it this far. Junior high kids playing around on the internet. This is the first time I've ever Googled a new article and found exactly zero hits besides those on Wikipedia. Graymornings_(talk) 21:53, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete as it seems like the idiots are invading. Tavix (talk) 00:40, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Clearly made up and unverifiable. The listed sources do not mention the topic either. I'd delete as vandalism. - Mgm|^(talk) 09:28, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy delete (G3/G11) — blatant misinformation, which equates to pure vandalism. Some students need to find better stuff to do with their free time. Oh yeah, and obvious conflict of interest as this was created by Habolgotten (talk · contribs), so this can also be considered spamming your own term. MuZemike (talk) 21:08, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. BJ^Talk 04:56, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Revive Energy Mints

Non-notable product, per Wikipedia:Deletion_policy/Brand_name_products: If the article is obvious advertising for an item that most people otherwise wouldn't have heard of, it should be deleted. --fvw * 21:38, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete I nominated this article for a procedural deletion. The original contributor removed the PROD tag, hence this nomination. --Call me Bubba (talk) 21:58, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep I surely do not think this article should be deleted. While, it is a relatively new product, as noted in the article, it is on shelves in stores, sold online, and has been featured in several magazine articles.Energyfreak (talk) 22:07, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete If there are any magazine articles on this, there certainly isn't any evidence on the web; the only news ghit is a press release, and there are exactly 121 ghits otherwise, many of which are adverts for vending distributorships for these. Pretty clear failure to satisfy WP:N and WP:BURDEN. At best, per WP:PRODUCT, this should be merged to an article on the manufacturer, if one existed. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 01:47, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete The product’s supporters have shown a pattern of abusive “contribution” to multiple Web fora, as a search like Mendaliv’s shows, and zero evidence of satisfying notability. — crism (talk) 06:56, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Keep This product is licensed to private distributors. The conduct of its distributors does not reflect that of the product's sponsors. To anyone questioning the verifiability of the claim that the product has been featured in several publications, please contact the parent company and they will gladly provide you with a reprint of a recent copy of TrueWealth Magazine, in which the product was featured. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.176.50.114 (talk • contribs)
Delete or Merge into the general article Energy mint. I agree that this article does not satisfy WP:N and WP:BURDEN. Insufficient third-party references found to support notability. Geoff ^T ^C 20:28, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Stifle (talk) 11:06, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Porscha Coleman

Appearances all look like bit parts. Non-notable actress. Fails WP:ENTERTAINER Blowdart | ^talk 21:17, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete': Does not show notability per WP:ENTERTAINER. Schuym1 (talk) 21:43, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Although my admin judgment on this one led me to decline the initial speedy tag, I certainly don't see any indication that she's actually notable — it's just not, strictly speaking, a speedy candidate since it does make a notability claim (albeit a weak one). Creator should be given a fair chance to improve the article if notability can be shown, but given the creator's username I actually suspect this may be a WP:COI case. Keep if genuine notability can be shown before closure, but I won't be holding my breath. Delete otherwise, which is far more likely. Bearcat (talk) 22:06, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Living people-related deletion discussions. --Erwin85Bot (talk) 00:06, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Bearcat, I reviewed the WP:COI case page that was stated above. Thank you for the information. But there is NO affiliation between myself and Porscha. So there should not be a conflict of interest in me creating a wikipedia page for her. My username is PorschaPorsche simply because my name is PORSCHE Kennedy and some of my friends call me PorschaPorsche for fun/ as a nickname. I do like PORSCHA Coleman's work and wanted to start a page for her, but there is no affiliation nor relationship with the two of us. I just wanted to clear that up.

Thank You PK Porschaporsche (talk) 08:05, 15 December 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Porschaporsche (talk • contribs) 08:02, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete - no coverage in reliable sources to establish notability -- Whpq (talk) 17:48, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was merge to Nikolai Stepanovich Chernykh. Stifle (talk) 11:06, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

List of asteroids discovered by Nikolai Stepanovich Chernykh

I think this page really fails notability. I have no idea who this guy is or why his asteroid discoveries, as opposed to, say, those of Clyde Tombaugh or David Jewitt, should be worthy of their own list. Serendi ^pod ous 21:05, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. -- Rtyq2 (talk) 22:33, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merge with Nikolai Stepanovich Chernykh, which is the main article for him. I don't see a reason to have a separate article just for the list of discovered asteroids, but merging with the main article on him seems like a way to keep the content of the article without having an unnessary second article. Rtyq2 (talk) 22:36, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merge per Rtyq2, the article can take up the extra data. --Lenticel ^(talk) 22:42, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Why Chernykh and not some other astronomer? I could see this as a category, and it would still have (almost) the exact same data. Tavix (talk) 22:56, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A category would allow the reader to search for a comet by date. - Mgm|^(talk) 09:25, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Why him and not some other astronomer? Probably because this article is the first time someone had the idea. Since having this in the original article would obviously look bad I'd prefer keeping it separated, but a merge would be my second choice. Anyway, if the astronomer is notable, we should obviously cover their discoveries somewhere, so there are no valid grounds for deletion. - Mgm|^(talk) 09:25, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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Merge — The article is only a 25k list, which could easily be merged along with the main guy. - NuclearWarfare ^{contact me}_{My work} 20:29, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merge into the main article Nikolai Stepanovich Chernykh. Absolutely oppose deletion of a list of documented discoveries by a notable scientist. --Zlerman (talk) 14:16, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. The list is too long for the main article, and categories cannot hold all this information due to the redlinks. --Itub (talk) 19:16, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was merge to list of Zoids. SNOW MBisanz ^talk 03:40, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sabre Tiger

This fictional weapon does not establish notability independent of Zoids through the inclusion of real world information from reliable, third party sources. Most of the information is made up of original research, trivial model details, and unnecessary plot details. There is no current assertion for future improvement of the article, and this is too trivial to require any separate coverage. TTN (talk) 21:04, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete no notability and a vehicle for unencyclopedic fancruft. Eusebeus (talk) 22:38, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to a list of Zoids. There's clearly too much plot details. But a lack of sources doesn't mean it's unverifiable. It means it's unverified. I cursory glance on Google would easily find enough information to merge a basic stub into a list. (If it's already there, it should be redirected so people actually find it). -Mgm|^(talk) 09:21, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merge as none of the reason given would apply if the content or a suitable part of it were merged into a combination article on these weapons, or at least redirected, there is no case for outright deletion. I note the nominator never even tried to suggest a merge in the proper place, and his repeated insistence on bringing these here seems POINTY. I further note that he has taken account of this, on a recent posting on his talk page[5], and has started redirecting without discussion, something for which he was previously blocked, with the declared intention of going to afd if the merges are reverted. The way of dealing with disputed merges is dispute resolution, not afd, and this nomination, along with all of the similar ones for mergeable/redirectable content, is an abuse of deletion process. DGG (talk) 16:59, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merge as per Mgm, DGG. Edward321 (talk) 23:51, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was merge to list of Zoids. SNOW MBisanz ^talk 03:40, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Molga

This fictional weapon does not establish notability independent of Zoids through the inclusion of real world information from reliable, third party sources. Most of the information is made up of original research, trivial model details, and unnecessary plot details. There is no current assertion for future improvement of the article, and this is too trivial to require any separate coverage. TTN (talk) 21:03, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete no notability and a vehicle for unencyclopedic fancruft. Eusebeus (talk) 22:38, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to a list of Zoids. There's clearly too much plot details. But a lack of sources doesn't mean it's unverifiable. It means it's unverified. I cursory glance on Google would easily find enough information to merge a basic stub into a list. (If it's already there, it should be redirected so people actually find it). -Mgm|^(talk) 09:20, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merge after discussion on the appropriate talk page, as none of the reason given would apply if the content or a suitable part of it were merged into a combination article on these weapons, or at least redirected, there is no case for outright deletion. I note the nominator never even tried to suggest a merge in the proper place, and his repeated insistence on bringing these here seems POINTY. I further note that he has taken account of this, on a recent posting on his talk page[6], and has started redirecting without discussion, something for which he was previously blocked, with the declared intention of going to afd if the merges are reverted. The way of dealing with disputed merges is dispute resolution, not afd, and this nomination, along with all of the similar ones for mergeable/redirectable content, is an abuse of deletion process. He has his own view of what is appropriate content, and apparently intends to try every possible route to bring this about. DGG (talk) 17:01, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merge as per Mgm, DGG. Edward321 (talk) 23:54, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was merge to list of Zoids. SNOW MBisanz ^talk 03:39, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Marder (Zoids)

This fictional weapon does not establish notability independent of Zoids through the inclusion of real world information from reliable, third party sources. Most of the information is made up of original research, trivial model details, and unnecessary plot details. There is no current assertion for future improvement of the article, and this is too trivial to require any separate coverage. TTN (talk) 21:03, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete no notability and a vehicle for unencyclopedic fancruft. Eusebeus (talk) 22:38, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to a list of Zoids. There's clearly too much plot details. But a lack of sources doesn't mean it's unverifiable. It means it's unverified. I cursory glance on Google would easily find enough information to merge a basic stub into a list. (If it's already there, it should be redirected so people actually find it). -Mgm|^(talk) 09:20, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merge after discussion on the appropriate talk page; as none of the reason given would apply if the content or a suitable part of it were merged into a combination article on these weapons, or at least redirected, there is no case for outright deletion. See above for additional comments. DGG (talk) 17:02, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merge as per Mgm, DGG. Edward321 (talk) 00:22, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As with everybody else I'm using the same rationale as at the other AfD. Delete due to a lack of notability of the subject matter. Nothing in google news, google scholar, and nothing notable that I see on a regular google search, as I can only find user-submitted content (like wikipedia) and stuff for sale. Articles about fiction have to demonstrate notability in this world. Themfromspace (talk) 03:28, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was merge to list of Zoids. SNOW MBisanz ^talk 03:39, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Mammoth (Zoids)

This fictional weapon does not establish notability independent of Zoids through the inclusion of real world information from reliable, third party sources. Most of the information is made up of original research, trivial model details, and unnecessary plot details. There is no current assertion for future improvement of the article, and this is too trivial to require any separate coverage. TTN (talk) 21:02, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete no notability and a vehicle for unencyclopedic fancruft. Eusebeus (talk) 22:38, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to a list of Zoids. There's clearly too much plot details. But a lack of sources doesn't mean it's unverifiable. It means it's unverified. I cursory glance on Google would easily find enough information to merge a basic stub into a list. (If it's already there, it should be redirected so people actually find it). -Mgm|^(talk) 09:19, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merge after discussion on the appropriate talk page; as none of the reason given would apply if the content or a suitable part of it were merged into a combination article on these weapons, or at least redirected, there is no case for outright deletion. See above for additional comments. DGG (talk) 17:03, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merge as per Mgm, DGG. Edward321 (talk) 00:25, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete due to a lack of notability of the subject matter. Nothing in google news, google scholar, and nothing notable that I see on a regular google search, as I can only find user-submitted content (like wikipedia) and stuff for sale. Articles about fiction have to demonstrate notability in this world. Themfromspace (talk) 03:26, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was merge to list of Zoids. Stifle (talk) 11:06, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Iron Kong

This fictional weapon does not establish notability independent of Zoids through the inclusion of real world information from reliable, third party sources. Most of the information is made up of original research, trivial model details, and unnecessary plot details. There is no current assertion for future improvement of the article, and this is too trivial to require any separate coverage. TTN (talk) 21:01, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete no notability and a vehicle for unencyclopedic fancruft. Eusebeus (talk) 22:38, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to a list of Zoids. There's clearly too much plot details. But a lack of sources doesn't mean it's unverifiable. It means it's unverified. I cursory glance on Google would easily find enough information to merge a basic stub into a list. (If it's already there, it should be redirected so people actually find it). - Mgm|^(talk) 09:18, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merge as per Mgm. Edward321 (talk) 00:50, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Delete. Eluchil404 (talk) 08:16, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Phobos (computer game)

Game in development with no release date and no assertion of notability. Fails WP:CRYSTAL. Ros0709 (talk) 21:01, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. It does fail WP:CRYSTAL and no WP:RS can exist to establish WP:N. Perhaps after the game is completed and released.. MURGH ^disc. 21:13, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: Fails WP:CRYSTAL. Schuym1 (talk) 21:48, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of video game related deletions. MuZemike (talk) 23:34, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I remain very wary of calling for deletion, this was nominated a mere 30 minutes after creation. I would have at least given the creator a few days to try to establish notability. I'm also somewhat wary that its a new user we're dealing with, its a very good way of discouraging any further participation by immediately nominating their first edits for deletion. -- Sabre (talk) 12:14, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep — Give the article a chance. It hasn't even gotten one. MuZemike (talk) 15:21, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete The game's site describes it as "a Massively Multiplayer Online Role-playing Game (MMORPG) created by a team of volunteers from all around the world. Phobos is the first product of “Myth Entertainment” and though it's still in development, it already has a strong community." IE it's a low-fi indie effort, the likes of which almost never gain notability, the lack of sources coming up in a search illustrates this, articles can't be built with "ever heard of this..?" message board posts. Though I don't like the idea that someone's first contributions are up for deletion so quickly, nobody likes their contributions being deleted regardless of how long they've been on WP. Dismissing this process due to that alone is not a kindness in the long run, much as I would like the article's creator to feel welcome. Someone another 16:51, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral - Viable for deletion per WP:CRYSTAL, however I agree with Sabre and MuZemike. Allow the article to develop further before ringing the bell. -- Jelly Soup (talk) 19:54, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - basic WP:V requirements seem unlikely at the moment. If the contributor somehow fulfills this policy during the duration of the AfD, then I will review my !vote. Marasmusine (talk) 16:23, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - There are no reliable sources to establish notability or satisfy verifiability. And you aren't doing the creator any favours by letting him spend time building the article when it fundamentally fails inclusion criteria. -- Whpq (talk) 17:52, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Merge some of it somewhere. Action to be taken by interested parties outside of AFD. Jerry delusional ¤ kangaroo 02:46, 20 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Terranotron

This character does not establish notability independent of Transformers through the inclusion of real world information from reliable, third party sources. Most of the information is made up of original research and unnecessary plot details. There is no current assertion for future improvement of the article, so extended coverage is unnecessary. TTN (talk) 21:01, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete no notability and a vehicle for unencyclopedic fancruft. Eusebeus (talk) 22:38, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep It makes pleanty of references to unrelated sites, and it's been expanded on several times. I took particular care to delete some fancruft from the article, like fan theories on the character's origin, and made sure to site varied sources. It should be good now. Mathewignash (talk) 00:04, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to a List of Transformers characters 76.66.195.159 (talk) 08:12, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That page doesn't exist. I oppose merging or deleting, but if you merged it, shouldn't it be with pages more like Dinobots? Mathewignash (talk) 12:20, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Merge to list of characters. I'll dissect the nomination:

"This character does not establish notability independent of Transformers" That means it shouldn't get a separate article, doesn't say anything about deletion.
"through the inclusion of real world information from reliable, third party sources." It includes information on the real world toy. Whether the source is reliable is up for debate.
"Most of the information is made up of original research and unnecessary plot details." Apart from a single sentence, everything is referenced. (no OR) and you can't describe something fictional without plot details. I would say this article keeps plot details to a bare minimum (a lot less than most of the articles you nominate).
"There is no current assertion for future improvement of the article, so extended coverage is unnecessary." There doesn't need to be (WP:DEADLINE) and again, no extended coverage does not equate no coverage at all. - Mgm|^(talk) 09:14, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Merge or Delete - not enough notability established for a separate article. Mgm: I fail to see how the existence of a toy conveys any additional notability. Siawase (talk) 14:01, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Merge after discussion on the appropriate talk page; since none of the reason given would apply if the content or a suitable part of it were merged into a combination article on these, or at least redirected, there is no case for outright deletion. I note the nominator never even tried to suggest a merge in the proper place, and his repeated insistence on bringing these here seems POINTY. It seems he has taken account of this, on a recent posting on his talk page[7], and has started redirecting without discussion, something for which he was previously blocked, with the declared intention of going to afd if the merges are reverted. The way of dealing with disputed merges is dispute resolution, not afd, and this nomination, along with all of the similar ones for mergeable/redirectable content, is an abuse of deletion process. He has his own view of what is appropriate content, and apparently intends to try every possible route to bring this about, regardless of policy. DGG (talk) 17:01, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see where he was blocked. [8] All I see is an admin saying he would be blocked unless he began attributing merges correctly. Siawase (talk) 17:17, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
His long block waaaay back earlier this year which was probably removed from the block log. MuZemike (talk) 21:16, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to appropriate list article. --Polaron | Talk 15:09, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. There's no appropriate list to merge to, and I suspect that if one were created, it would be listcruft. Stifle (talk) 11:07, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Merge some of it somewhere. Action to be carried out by interested editors outside of AFD. Jerry delusional ¤ kangaroo 03:01, 20 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Airraptor

This character does not establish notability independent of Transformers through the inclusion of real world information from reliable, third party sources. Most of the information is made up of original research and unnecessary plot details. There is no current assertion for future improvement of the article, so extended coverage is unnecessary. TTN (talk) 21:00, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete no notability and a vehicle for unencyclopedic fancruft. (I will x-post this same point to other relevant AfDs) Eusebeus (talk) 22:39, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep It makes pleanty of references to unrelated sites, and it's been expanded on several times. I took particular care to delete some fancruft from the article, like fan theories on the character's origin, and made sure to site varied sources. It should be good now. Mathewignash (talk) 00:05, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to a List of Transformers characters 76.66.195.159 (talk) 08:12, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That page doesn't exist. I oppose merging or deleting, but if you merged it, shouldn't it be with pages more like Dinobots? Mathewignash (talk) 12:24, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Merge to list of characters. I'll dissect the nomination:

"This character does not establish notability independent of Transformers" That means it shouldn't get a separate article, doesn't say anything about deletion.
"through the inclusion of real world information from reliable, third party sources." It includes information on the real world toy. Whether the source is reliable is up for debate.
"Most of the information is made up of original research and unnecessary plot details." Apart from a single sentence, everything is referenced. (no OR) and you can't describe something fictional without plot details. I would say this article keeps plot details to a bare minimum (a lot less than most of the articles you nominate).
"There is no current assertion for future improvement of the article, so extended coverage is unnecessary." There doesn't need to be (WP:DEADLINE) and again, no extended coverage does not equate no coverage at all. - Mgm|^(talk) 09:14, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fictional characters-related deletion discussions. -- the wub "?!" 12:38, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merge or Delete - not enough notability established for a separate article. Mgm: I fail to see how the existence of a toy conveys any additional notability. Siawase (talk) 14:02, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It doesn't but it suitable for inclusion in a list because it would help coverage of a toy line that is notable. - Mgm|^(talk) 12:41, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merge after discussion on the appropriate talk page; since none of the reason given would apply if the content or a suitable part of it were merged into a combination article on these, or at least redirected, there is no case for outright deletion. See above for further discussion. DGG (talk) 17:01, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to an appropriate list article as this is not a major or recurring character. --Polaron | Talk 15:02, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. There's no appropriate list to merge to, and I suspect that if one were created, it would be listcruft. Stifle (talk) 11:07, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. Merging is also mentioned, but a suitable target article was not given. Mgm|^(talk) 12:40, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Override (Transformers)

This character does not establish notability independent of Transformers through the inclusion of real world information from reliable, third party sources. Most of the information is made up of original research and unnecessary plot details. There is no current assertion for future improvement of the article, so extended coverage is unnecessary. TTN (talk) 20:59, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Merge to a List of Transformers characters 76.66.195.159 (talk) 08:12, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That page doesn't exist. Mathewignash (talk) 12:19, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep This character has appeared in comic books from 3 different companies over the 20+ years it existed, and is voiced by a actress who had an extensive article when they appeared as a regular in a TV series that had been broadcast in at least two different languages. It's signifigant. Mathewignash (talk) 12:29, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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Merge or Delete - not enough notability established for a separate article. Mathewignash: all the sources in the article seems to be either first party (hasbro) or fansites. Find some secondary WP:Reliable sources to WP:Verify the WP:Notability you claim it has. Siawase (talk) 14:08, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Seems to be nothing will make you happy. Any site I find mentioning Override you will dismiss as a "fan site". It's a fictional character from a comic book and TV show who had a couple toys produced. It won't be mentioned on cnn.com's news. It will be mentioned on web sites that cover news and reviews about cartoon characters and toys though, and those are the ones I mentioned. Mathewignash (talk) 16:02, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Merge or possibly keep if the sources are sufficient. Even when there are conventional sources for characters, those trying to delete the articles usually object that they are in some way inadequate. But as none of the reason given would apply if the content or a suitable part of it were merged into a combination article, there is no case for outright deletion. See above for a more extended discussion of these nominations. DGG (talk) 16:59, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep While not a major character, the newer character has appeared in multiple series and has potential for expansion. --Polaron | Talk 15:08, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Does not establish notability through significant coverage of real world context in reliable, secondary sources independent of the subject. Jay32183 (talk) 10:42, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per Jay32183. There's no appropriate list to merge to, and I suspect that if one were created, it would be listcruft. Stifle (talk) 11:08, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. While most of the commenters opposed deletion, there's no clear consensus if and where it should be merged, so I'm leaving that open for further discussion on the talk page. Mgm|^(talk) 12:38, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Motormaster

This character does not establish notability independent of Transformers through the inclusion of real world information from reliable, third party sources. Most of the information is made up of original research and unnecessary plot details. There is no current assertion for future improvement of the article, so extended coverage is unnecessary. TTN (talk) 20:58, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep It makes pleanty of references to unrelated sites, and it's been expanded on several times. The character himself is voiced by a famous personality, and had appeared in a TV series and comic book series by three different companies over the 22 years of his existance. The prototype for a variant of the toy of this character sold on ebay for over $2000 and made the toy collecting news. The article is also part of various projects, and links to and from many pages. Mathewignash (talk) 00:04, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to a List of Transformers characters 76.66.195.159 (talk) 08:12, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That page doesn't exist. Mathewignash (talk) 12:25, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. The article mentions the voice actors who played this character, the character is not a walk-on, they appeared in multiple works of fiction and the toy sold for a high amount on eBay. I agree that some sources need to be improved, but claiming there's no real world information is blatantly false. - Mgm|^(talk) 09:05, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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Comment - Just about every single Transformers article should almost certainly be trimmed of non-free images, trivia, cruft and speculation and amalgamated into a substantially trimmed List of Transformers characters. But it's just so onerous a task with so many uber-Transfanboys that would oppose, that I'm not touching this with a ten-foot pole. Bottom line, though, is I'm not sure a piecemeal AfD process is the best way to go. --EEMIV (talk) 12:54, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merge or Delete - not enough notability established for a separate article. (urbandictionary as a reference? seriously?) But per what EEMIV said, this is one of those areas of wikipedia that'd need a lot of sustained efforts to harmonize with policy, and not many people willing to put in that effort. Siawase (talk) 13:58, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merge or perhaps keep, depending on discussion at the talk page. Possibly the references are sufficient for an article by itself--but even with stronger references, in convention RSs, articles of this sort are still nominated for deletion on the basis of being unsubstantial, or whatever other reason can be given. See above for further comment on this series of deletions. DGG (talk) 16:59, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to Stunticons. The subgroup article is a more appropriate place to discuss as the notability of Motormaster is as part of the combining robot subgroup. The information on this and other members of the Stunticons can be summarized and turned into a table and inserted into the Stunticons article. --Polaron | Talk 15:04, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete due to lack of reliable sources independent of the subject. There's no appropriate list to merge to, and I suspect that if one were created, it would be listcruft. Stifle (talk) 11:08, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. Mgm|^(talk) 12:35, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Vok

This fictional race does not establish notability independent of Transformers through the inclusion of real world information from reliable, third party sources. Most of the information is made up of original research and unnecessary plot details. There is no current assertion for future improvement of the article, so extended coverage is unnecessary. TTN (talk) 20:56, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Merge to a List of Transformers races 76.66.195.159 (talk) 08:13, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep It's a stub that is expanding, and it needs work, but there is no time limit on articles being worked on. The characters have appeared in several TV series, and comic books by at least 3 companies, and are notable. Mathewignash (talk) 13:34, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep or possibly merge, but after discussion on the appropriate talk page; I agree with the above analysis. I can think of no reasonable meaning for "There is no current assertion for future improvement of the article, so extended coverage is unnecessary.", unl;ess the nom means that nobody is presently working on it--which is not a reason for deletion. almost no article cannot be improved. See above for further discussion. DGG (talk) 17:01, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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Keep Not familiar with this series but this appears to be instrumental to the overall plot. --Polaron | Talk 15:10, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. There's no appropriate list to merge to, and I suspect that if one were created, it would be listcruft. Stifle (talk) 11:08, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Redirect to Monster (1999 novel). Foxy Loxy ^Pounce! 06:20, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Monster (book)

Non-notable. Just a book written to make some cheap money off of a truly tragic event, and the author doesn't even have his own article. Juvvaglott (talk) 19:53, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: Doesn't show notability per WP:BK. Schuym1 (talk) 20:06, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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Redirect to Monster (1999 novel). It seems that's what it redirected to before, until suddenly 2 years later this editor changes it. Definitely fails WP:BK (obviously). Rtyq2 (talk) 22:07, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to Monster (1999 novel). No indication the newer book has achieved notability. 23skidoo (talk) 04:52, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to Monster (1999 novel). The new entry lacks content. It merely asserts the book exists without providing further information. - Mgm|^(talk) 09:01, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - it already WAS a redirect to Monster (1999 novel), but it was changed. Intothewoods29 (talk) 23:09, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was no consensus. Mgm|^(talk) 12:34, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Crowne Plaza Izmir

A 20-story building in a large city is not usually notable. Article is unreferenced, but looking up references turns up nothing notable about this building other than it's a nice hotel. ArglebargleIV (talk) 19:11, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per nom. Completely not notable. Quid Pro Quo²³ 22:07, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merge & Redir - to InterContinental Hotels Group until such time as its is more than a sub-sub-stub. Exit2DOS2000^•T•C• 23:26, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - If a former major nation president is going to attend its anniversary, it's got to be notable. It's difficult to translate Turkish language sources. Besides the Turkish Daily News source in the article, there's also this recent Turkish one that seems to be primarily about this property. Prodding this article for deletion within 13 minutes of its creation [9] was not productive. --Oakshade (talk) 02:44, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep or merge I can see a case being made to keep the article based on the president attending its anniversary. If consensus decides that is not enough, it can be merged. (I also agree that prodding 13 minutes after creation is premature. For all we knew the creator could still have been working on it). - Mgm|^(talk) 08:59, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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Delete unless there's something unique about it like architecture it really shouldn't have an article. I oppose redirect as we'll start having to create redirects for every hotel of a major chain. Michellecrisp (talk) 05:37, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A building does not have to have unique architecture to be notable.--Oakshade (talk) 06:41, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Architecture that is well cited is just an example, the main thing is significant third party coverage as per WP:GNG which this subject seems to lack, see Google news search. Michellecrisp (talk) 06:43, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Move to Crowne Plaza İzmir. Stifle (talk) 11:09, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was no consensus. BJ^Talk 04:48, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

List of Jews in sports

This is a case of overcategorisation in list form. Why is it relevant that these sportspeople are Jewish? We do't have lists of Christian or Muslim sportspeople, and nor should we. Cordless Larry (talk) 19:07, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Strong delete per nom.-Juvvaglott (talk) 19:55, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment -- note that User:Juvvaglott's vote should not count since his/her account was just created a day ago, probably for the sole purpose of trying to delete this list. --Wassermann (talk) 05:14, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

~~Delete~~ changed to merge, but still per this: WP:NOTDIR, no. 5. "Non-encyclopedic cross-categorizations, such as 'People from ethnic/cultural/religious group X employed by organization Y' or 'Restaurants specializing in food type X in city Y.'" Graymornings_(talk) 21:56, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete as overgategorization of the list variety. Besides, wasn't that just a leaflet that the one lady ordered from the stewardess offering something to read to the passengers in Airplane! ("Do you have anything light?")? MuZemike (talk) 23:38, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. The role of the Jew in sports has been a subject of considerable scholarly and popular attention over the years. It is a significant topic within the discipline of Jewish studies. The Airplane! joke is a reference to an old stereotype, which Jewish studies scholars have taken pains to confront.[10] There are numerous books on the subject. Just a few examples off a quick Google Books search (there are plenty more): Encyclopedia of Jews in Sports by Bernard Postal, Jesse Silver, Roy Silver (1965) (a book that I, and lots of other Jewish kids of my generation, had on the bookshelf); Great Jews in Sports by Robert Slater (2003), ISBN 0824604539 ; Emancipation Through Muscles: Jews and Sports in Europe by Michael Brenner, Gideon Reuveni, (2006) ISBN 0803213557 ; Jews, Sports, and the Rites of Citizenship ed. Jack Kugelmass (2007) ISBN 025207324X; Ellis Island to Ebbets Field: Sport and the American Jewish Experience by Peter Levine (1993) ISBN 0195085558 ; Judaism's Encounter with American Sports by Jeffrey S. Gurock (2005) ISBN 0253347009 .--Arxiloxos (talk) 00:20, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, the relationship between Jews and sports is notable, but probably not in list form. Could we create an article about Jews in sports and merge this list (perhaps in abbreviated form) into that article? This seems to be over-listing rather than creating content. I'd be more than happy to work on such an article. Graymornings_(talk) 22:13, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - That sounds like a sensible idea to me. Cordless Larry (talk) 23:05, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Outside sources consider this a notable intersection, as Arxiloxos demonstrates. Jewish athletes do face unique dilemmas; consider the case of Sandy Koufax and other baseball players, who refused to pitch on Yom Kippur. Zagalejo^^^ 04:06, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep in order to oppose the ongoing efforts to censor lists, categories, and articles dealing with Jews and Jewish issues here on Wikipedia. --Wassermann (talk) 05:11, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Please assume good faith with other editors. I doubt the people here siding for deletion have anything against Judaism or censorship henceforth. MuZemike (talk) 21:19, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - Correct - my nomination has nothing to do with Judaism per se. I just don't see how the sportsperson-Jewish intersection is relevant. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:36, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    - On the refusing to pitch on Yom Kippur point, I see that that would be worth mentioning on specific articles such as the one about Sandy Koufax, but I don't see how that justifies a list such as this. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:38, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. I considered this a trivial intersection when I first looked at it. But Arxiloxos clearly demonstrated I was mistaken. - Mgm|^(talk) 08:56, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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Keep per Arxiloxos' research. LinguistAtLarge 17:55, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Sólyomszem (talk) 20:04, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

User has provided no reason behind rationale. MuZemike (talk) 21:17, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Keep. The Jews are an ethnic group (who have endured mainly through the cohesion of those who kept the religion). So this is not a simple intersection of religion and occupation. I think occupation is as significant in terms of the makeup of an ethnic group as it is for any given nationality. (Related page: Category:Sportspeople by ethnicity.) --Eliyak T·C 03:05, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete because I agree with the nominator. Definitely a violation of Overcategorization: Non-notable intersections by ethnicity, religion, or sexual preference, and indeed "Jewish mathematicians" is cited in WP:OC#CATGRS as one such pointless effort at listifying or categorzing Jews with no real purpose and with real basis whatsoever. There have been at least twenty such lists deleted over the years, and this one is no different. Pure Wikipedia:Listcruft at its worst. See:
- Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/List of Jewish Nobel Prize winners (September 2004) (Deleted July 2007)
- Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish engineers (October 2005)
- Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish Fellows of the Royal Society (2nd nomination) (November 2005)
- Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish American criminals and victims (March 2006)
- Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jews in the media (June 2006)
- Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish Peruvian activists (and other trivialised lists of Peruvian Jews) (February 2007)
- Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of atheist Nobel laureates (2nd nomination): List of Jewish Nobel laureates (July 2007)
- Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Messianic Jews and Hebrew Christians (July 2007)
- List of people of Polish Jewish descent (July 2007)
- Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of religious leaders with Jewish background (August 2007)
- Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish American social and political scientists (August 2007)
- Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish American engineers (October 2007)
- Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish American fashion designers (October 2007)
- Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish Foreign Ministers (October 2007)
- Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish Orthodox anti-Zionists (October 2007)
- Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish jurists (2nd nomination) (May 2008)
- Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jews in the history of business (August 2008)

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The result was redirect to Valley Stream 13 Union Free School District#Elementary schools. BJ^Talk 05:04, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Howell Road Elementary School

Poorly written article about non-notable school. Call me Bubba (talk) 18:48, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Non-notable school" would probably have been sufficient. Generally, elementary school articles are submitted by students whose writing skills will continue to improve as time goes on. Given the topic, the level of skill, and that the editor's screenname ends with "99", I gather that this is a younger contributor. Mandsford (talk) 14:17, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete — Elementary schools are not notable unless there is something specifically notable about the specific school, which there doesn't appear to be. NW's Public Sock (talk) 20:01, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep and redirect to Valley Stream 13 Union Free School District, the school district which operates the school. -- Eastmain (talk) 23:54, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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Redirect to Valley Stream 13 Union Free School District#Elementary schools. This could just have been boldly done. TerriersFan (talk) 03:12, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to Valley Stream 13 Union Free School District#Elementary schools. This should have been boldly done. Victuallers (talk) 15:51, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Stifle (talk) 11:09, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Shokolat

Only vauge assertions of notability given, and the references are only partially specified. I've been unable to verify the notability claims independently. --fvw * 18:40, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. I looked unsuccessfully for notable outside references and couldn't find them. Fails WP:MUSIC. Graymornings_(talk) 22:00, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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I tried searching Google News archives, and also tried a library database of newspaper and magazine articles, but have not found any sources that would help to establish WP:N notability. Delete unless sources appear before the end of this deletion discussion. Paul Erik ^{(talk)(contribs)} 23:31, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: article fails to establish notability, as per WP:MUSIC. JamesBurns (talk) 05:13, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is without question that notability criteria 11 has been met WP:MUSIC. The artist features on rotation on a major national radio station as pointed out by Sararigby below (www.classicfm.nl - playlist search for shokolat, under "zoek naar"). It would be in the spirit of wikipedia fairness if JamesBurns and Graymornings took the trouble to confirm this and withdraw their delete recommendation on this basis, and to confirm the validity of this. One wonders what the point of notability guidelines is if wikipedians ignore them! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Classicalmusiclover (talk • contribs) 16:06, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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"This artist should not be deleted due to the "notabaility Criteria" for musicians number 11: This artist is on rotation on Classic FM Netherlands, THE major national FM radio broadcaster in Holland for classical music. This can be verified on a search at http://www.classicfm.nl under playlist / zoeken searching for "shokolat" in the box "zoek naar". This artist also often appears on rotation on national classical radio station in germany (http://www.klassikradio-shop.de/playlist/?suche=shokolat) amongst others. Also in Holland he often receives radio airplay on Concertzender National radio e.g. http://www.concertzender.eu/programmagids.php?date=2008-04-23&month=-8&detail=28777 or http://www.concertzender.eu/programmagids.php?date=2008-04-02&month=-8&detail=28774 as examples, one of which lasted more than 30 minutes, which is again NOTABLE under BOTH wikipedia musician criteria numbers 11 and 12. The assertions that "fails WP:music" is therefore incorrect - although the verification of these claims has been impeded by language barriers (german, dutch), and furthermore these links do provide verification. In general terms wp:music states: "in a nutshell Notability is met if the musician has been the subject of a broadcast by a media network". The verifiable information provided confirms at least 3 media networks in at least 2 countries, at least one of which is a weekly broadcast. Deletion would be contrary to wikipedia guidelines." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sararigby (talk • contribs) 12:58, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Stifle (talk) 11:09, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Neil Patrick Carrick

Article does not meet Notability Guidelines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability) This article is about a guy with a personal vendetta against a church, and added this article just to inflate a non-issue. Oh and he happens to be a lawyer so he thinks he's somebody.JustGoAway (talk) 17:17, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - sources given in article not sufficient to demonstrate notability.--Boffob (talk) 17:33, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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Speedy keep — Article nominated by an IP, according to the history; user registered to work around the AFD nomination. This violates the spirit of the policy that users must be registered to nominate articles for deletion. MuZemike (talk) 18:24, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Furthermore, the IP/registered user in question has made a bad-faith nomination, quoting that This article needs to be removed for being pointless and useless. MuZemike (talk) 18:32, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - Disagree with speedy keep Surely this is all irrelevant if the article does deserve to be deleted? Furthermore it will achieve nothing, since the AfD nominator can simply re-nominate correctly. I suggest that a courteous and dispassionate discussion here would be the best way forward. Springnuts (talk) 18:52, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete not finding significant covereage in 3rd party references. No google book hits, only google news hits are a mention in a obit. This wikipedia article is the first hit in a google search, that's rarely a good sign of notability.--Rtphokie (talk) 19:05, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, wikipedia is practically the first hit for everything that has an article these days, it's scary. cf. [11] [12]. --fvw * 19:09, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete for lack of significant coverage. At best he would be notable for just one event - but I don't think there is evidence even for this. Springnuts (talk) 19:12, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. The subject's claim to notability is unclear; the article doesn't explain it. The supporters of this article would be better off editing this article so that the notable aspects of the subject's career are highlighted; an article half the current length might be preferable. There is also some personal information in the article that may merit removal under WP:BLP. Contrary to the nom, the article doesn't say anything about the subject being a lawyer, and contrary to MuZemike, there is nothing wrong with someone registering in order to complete an AfD nomination. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 20:28, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete -- Quite apart from the article being badly written (with repeated use of "would", rather than a simple past tense), the whole notability seems to be a minor scandal in a small network of churches. Seems NN to me. Peterkingiron (talk) 22:56, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - WP:NOTNEWS, WP:OR, etc. Bearian (talk) 18:09, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
merge to Greater Grace World Outreach. Some of this content looks relevant to that organization. JoshuaZ (talk) 03:37, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Keep. Schuym1 (talk) 23:22, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Over Ashes

I can't find any reliable sources that shows notability. Fails WP:MUSIC. Schuym1 (talk) 00:15, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete: notability not established, as per WP:MUSIC. JamesBurns (talk) 00:29, 13 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep seems to have some notability. The article shows http://www.thechristianpulse.com/index.php/20071210374/Music/Artist-Spotlight/Artist-Spotlight-Over-Ashes.html, looks like third-party coverage. I've found a review by Christianity Today for the album Begin Again: http://www.christianitytoday.com/music/reviews/2007/beginagain.html. Other than that didn't find anything else worth noting on the web though. --PeaceNT (talk) 14:48, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 17:10, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, some notability perhaps, for very small values of some, but nothing approaching WP:MUSIC. --fvw * 17:21, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
New content added to article - some reviews. Springnuts (talk) 17:44, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - just meets the requirement for criterion 1 of WP:MUSICBIO. The key for me is that the reviews are not simply gushing praise; ie they are independent. Springnuts (talk) 17:44, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, in the context of their genre, the jesusfreakhideout.com, christianitytoday.com, and thechristianpulse.com are reliable, third-party, sources, thus they pass WP:MUSIC#C1. Esradekan Gibb ^"Talk" 23:05, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Delete. Tiptoety ^talk 05:16, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ben Alekzsander Williams

A non notable bit part actor and band member. No evidence towards notability provided or available on searching. Nuttah (talk) 16:49, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The band might just pass the muster if some more links are dug up, but in the current state delete it all. --fvw * 16:58, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment could I ask what you believe is on the road to notability? Nuttah (talk) 17:12, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Mostly this link. It's just a regional bbc page, but it looks like it isn't user submitted content. Mind you, if we were discussing the band with just the links listed here, I'd still say delete. --fvw * 17:19, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Apart from the disclaimer on the index Alphabetical guide to bands submitted to the site. Nuttah (talk) 17:23, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well yes, apart from that obviously, duh. (Also: oops) --fvw * 17:36, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: article fails to establish notability. JamesBurns (talk) 05:25, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. I say the same as Fvw, and want to add this one comment: Two of his songs are linked. One is a redlink, the other links to something totally unrelated to the article. TopGearFreak 17:02, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Has own IMDB page and is due to sign to SONY BMG record label. EnjaBenja (talk) 20:09, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Agreed that more verifiable sources are required to establish notability. (I couldn't even access existing refs, except IMDb.) Article looks more like promotional advertising. Snowy 1973 (talk) 17:09, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
'Delete I had it tagged for CSD, but it was declined as borderline. No reliable sources could be found. Of its current sources, one is non-existent, one is to a blog, and one is to an IMDB article which only fleetingly mentions the subject. Fails WP:RS. --Patar knight - ^chat/_{contributions} 17:31, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
KEEP. Looking very notable with very detailed references, with his own IMDB page, it should stay.CrackersTeam (talk) 00:19, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. Sandstein 17:03, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Greg Giametta

Non-notable person, zero reliable references. Article is full of self-promotion and advertising (unsourced and unreferenced phrases such as "First Computer based Guitar-Amplifier-Software", "one of the most respected top-selling", "state of the art", etc). Article was first created by "Audiowarrior", and, incidentally, article mentions a company named "Audiowarrior" that this person created. I guess, clearly a WP:COI. Article is clearly written in non-encyclopedic tone, badly formatted and uncategorized. GreyCat (talk) 17:15, 6 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This AfD nomination was incomplete. It is listed now. DumbBOT (talk) 19:08, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - article is promotional in nature and heavy on the name-dropping. There are no reliable sources found in searching that write about the subject. -- Whpq (talk) 17:47, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 16:45, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy Delete. Per nom. TopGearFreak 16:49, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete or speedy, just get rid of it. --fvw * 16:51, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. (non-admin closure) Foxy Loxy ^Pounce! 06:33, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Idha (singer)

I can't find any reliable sources that show notability here, here, here, and here. Fails WP:MUSIC. Schuym1 (talk) 16:15, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. I can't find notability either, and the only relevant reference I can find links to YouTube. Not a great reference. TopGearFreak 16:42, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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Keep, passes WP:MUSIC#C1 for multiple reviews, check out her Allmusic profile for details. There you will also see 2 releases from Creation Records so also passing WP:MUSIC#C5. WP:GOOGLEHITS is not a reason for deletion. Esradekan Gibb ^"Talk" 23:00, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I was not going by google hits. I actually looked at the sources. Schuym1 (talk) 23:04, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - And please don't ever point me to a stupid essay again. Schuym1 (talk) 23:09, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    - Sweet as, it's a deal, as long as you don't quote ghits as your reason for deletion, I wont quote ghits in my replies. Esradekan Gibb ^"Talk" 11:29, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. In addition to the sources mentioned above, she has a bio and discography in Martin C. Strong's book The Great Indie Discography. Two albums on Creation Records also - no way it should be deleted.--Michig (talk) 08:43, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Passes WP:MUSIC through multiple non-trivial mentions in reliable sources, plus 2 albums released on Creation Records. sparkl_!sm ^hey! 13:46, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Creation records was (until its dissolution) one of the best-known indie labels. They had Oasis, Ride, Teenage Fanclub, My Bloody Valentine, the Jesus and Mary Chain, and a ton more bands on their roster and were later picked up by Sony. Anyone with a couple of albums on that label deserves to have an article, imo. -- Hux (talk) 09:38, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Stifle (talk) 11:09, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I.M.P.S.: The Relentless

Non-notable fan films - the only possible sources seem to be a) mirrors of the article and b) the use assortment of NN blogs and fansites. Cameron Scott (talk) 15:51, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Weak Keep. It should be kept, just to make sure that the Star Wars franchise articles are complete. And I suppose they are notable, in a way. TopGearFreak 16:45, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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DELETE No references, no mentioned notability, generally a weak article. At the least move it into the Troops one since it says this is a follow up to that. 74.13.109.25 (talk) 19:25, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: Doesn't establish notability like the other fan-films we allow on here i.e. Chad Vader. Ryan4314 (talk) 20:27, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. John254 00:03, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Melville Sewell Bagley

No material claim of notability. Unable to find any significant coverage of the subject. Bongo matic 15:34, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Weak keep - Notability possibly established by inventing Hesperidina. Totnesmartin (talk) 18:43, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep First registered trademark in Argentina for Hesperidina. Most of the relevant support probably in Spanish. I will see if I can find some. Yes it is just like I thought it is there but in SpanishRichardBond (talk) 00:29, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep It does appear that much of the information about him is available in Spanish, but there is enough information in a quick Google search in English to suggest that he meets WP:N. A good article for expansion and addition of references. Geoff ^T ^C 20:05, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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Keep. He's covered by history books [13], so should be covered by Wikipedia. Phil Bridger (talk) 16:12, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Stifle (talk) 11:09, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Astriga Film Industry

Non-notable company (WP:N), has been speedily deleted twice. Previous incarnations and earlier sister articles indicated that this is a person who has produced a few films that have been exhibited to people in a couple of apartment buildings. Promotional. —Largo Plazo (talk) 14:36, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete: No chance of passing WP:CORP. Schuym1 (talk) 19:39, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete as no searchable notability. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 03:36, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete:The article does not cite references and looks like a promotional article.It should be deleted.Aaditya 10:26, 15 December 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Avs dps (talk • contribs)

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The result was speedy deleted, copyvio --fvw * 14:39, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Madhur mittal

Fails WP:ENTERTAINER. Has appeared in a single notable film till date. Also copyvio with [14]. ^LeaveSleaves _talk 14:30, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. WP:SNOW MBisanz ^talk 03:41, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Arvydas Novikovas

Contested PROD, tag removed with no explanation at all. The subject is a 17-year old footballer contracted with Hearts FC, of which he is not part of the first team [15]. He appeared to have played only with some Lithuanian teams (I say 'appeared' because no sources were provided regarding these claimed appearances), nonetheless the Lithuanian top flight is not fully professional, so he fails WP:ATHLETE by any stretch of imagination. Have your say. Angelo (talk) 13:57, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete per nom. – Pee Jay 14:04, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. He is in the Hearts under-19 squad per the Edinburgh Evening News.([16]) The under-19 squad of an SPL club is two levels below the first team (first team, reserve team, then under-19s). Jmorrison230582 (talk) 14:28, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete and re-create when (and if) he plays in a fully professional league. Jogurney (talk) 15:41, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete yep, and recreate if he does make a pro game. Govvy (talk) 16:50, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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Delete per nom. Giant Snowman 19:32, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was speedy deleted by Jerry as a creation by a banned user in violation of ban. the wub "?!" 12:46, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Miley Cyrus Singles

Completely redundant to discography. —Kww(talk) 13:17, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There does seem to be some info there that's not in the main article. It could be merged and redirected, but as the main article's already pretty big, I'd say Keep. --fvw * 13:23, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Redundant to Miley Cyrus discography and her singles pages. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • ^{(Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP)} 16:06, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect (and Miley Cyrus singles too. When I checked the first single in the discography and compared it with this article, the release dates didn't fit. A merge should only be done if this can all be backed up (most of it is duplication from existing articles anyway. - Mgm|^(talk) 16:13, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, redundant to Miley Cyrus discography. Esradekan Gibb ^"Talk" 22:49, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Submitted as speedy delete. Author was just another sock of Brianyau323. See Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Brianyau323 (4th) for details.—Kww(talk) 01:09, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete as redundant to the discography article. Cyrus has hardly been around enough nor been prolific enough to justify a singles list. 23skidoo (talk) 04:54, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. The consensus is that while there may possibly be a good article on this topic, this isn't it. Stifle (talk) 11:09, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Trad rock

Delete per WP:NOR. YeaH, Ino (talk) 12:57, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. The term itself is definitely not an OR. A simple Google search yields multiple legitimate sites using this term. You can also find articles such as this using the term. What the article needs is an encyclopedic treatment and not deletion. ^LeaveSleaves _talk 16:55, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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Delete if you get rid of the unreferenced parts, you'll have nothing left. I would, however, be willing to support recreation if an expert on the subject can get together a nicely well put together article on the topic. Tavix (talk) 02:17, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Seems to me the British end of this movement is already covered in Brit pop, with the US bands in Grunge. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 05:18, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: original research. JamesBurns (talk) 05:02, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, the current article is quite poor, but as shown, this is a real term and a decent article could be written about it. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 05:09, 19 December 2008 (UTC).[reply]

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The result was delete. WP:SNOW MBisanz ^talk 03:41, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hell's Bell

Non notable "e-novel", I was considering {{db-web}}-ing it, but I wasn't sure if it qualified, so went with the safe option. Might as well give the author some time to improve the article. Closedmouth (talk) 12:33, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - I agree with Closedmouth. I can't find any sources that would qualify, per WP:BK.--OliverTwisted (talk) 13:42, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Non-notable - no sources or claim of notability. Springnuts (talk) 13:40, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom --YOWUZA Talk 2 me! 13:58, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete': Does not show notability per WP:BK. Schuym1 (talk) 14:25, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy delete as G11 - spam. Half the article is about the author rather than the book. It just a run-of-the-mill selfpublication. No impressive sales record either. - Mgm|^(talk) 16:07, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - As I have been saying for a couple of days, there is little to support the inclusion of this in Wikipedia. Google hits are almost nil. ttonyb1 (talk) 16:17, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was Keep. Closing early due to the withdrawn nomination and the now irrelevant original objection. Thanks to User:Valenciano for translating this. Philosopher ^{Let us reason together.} 13:24, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

José David Name Cardoso

Another page that has hung around on WP:PNT for more than two weeks untranslated. -Yupik (talk) 12:21, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete and commend the people who clean up WP:PNT for their efforts. --fvw * 12:28, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete as per above. Was deleted as self-promotion at es:José David Name Cardoso. Andreas ^(T) 14:33, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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Comment. This person passes WP:POLITICIAN as a member of the Colombian Senate.[17] I don't know the what happened in the Spanish Wikipedia or WP:PNT, but removing the fluff and making a NPOV stub doesn't look like an insurmountable task here. • Gene93k (talk) 17:02, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: I've just done a short translation. As Gene93k points out, he passes WP:POLITICIAN and we need more of such articles not less to counter WP:BIAS Valenciano (talk) 19:57, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Strong keep per Valenciano. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 21:42, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. The criterion for this debate was not that he wasn't notable, but that this is the English wikipedia and we can't keep these articles around indefinitely while waiting for them to be translated. The time limit for translation is two weeks at WP:PNT, which is why it was listed here. That said, thank you for the translation and I would be pleased if you would start participating in WP:PNT so we don't have to list these articles here, especially with a common language like Spanish. I highly doubt, for instance, that we'll be able to find anyone to translate the article in Maltese hanging around by the time its two weeks is up. But again, thanks and I think this AfD can be closed now with the result of Keep. -Yupik (talk) 23:44, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would also like to extend that invitation to anyone willing to go through already translated articles and copyedit them. We have quite a backlog of those, too, but those can't be AfD'd. -Yupik (talk) 23:49, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. I didn't think I should close this yet, despite the withdrawn nomination, as there were some other negative !votes. But it seems a clear pass of WP:POLITICIAN as Gene93k said. —David Eppstein (talk) 01:33, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was A2 Non-admin closure. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • ^{(Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP)} 21:49, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

가스정제기

Page has yet to be translated after 2 weeks of being listed at WP:PNT. -Yupik (talk) 12:15, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Seems fair. delete. --fvw * 12:20, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete If you enter the text into Babelfish, it comes out as a nice block of text but fails to make much of a point. If it remains untranslated for this long, I'd recommend deletion. —Cyclonenim (talk · contribs · email) 12:44, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Untranslated possible advertisment for a "gas clarifier" (according to Babelfish translation). Doc Strange^MailboxLogbook 15:51, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy delete (A2) — foreign-language article already in the Korean Wikipedia as shown here. MuZemike (talk) 18:41, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy delete - A2 added. — neuro^(talk) 20:17, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. John254 00:03, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Cococinel

Non-notable. No reliable sources, only an IMDB entry. YeaH, Ino (talk) 12:09, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, could use some more references but appears to be notable. --fvw * 12:13, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep as per Fvw. Edward321 (talk) 14:47, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep A second source has been added; it could use more, but appears to be notable. --Fullobeans (talk) 14:49, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - right, well if it is notable, then how come it doesn't have an entry in the French Wikipedia? After all, these kinds of things tend to have articles in their own languages relevant to the article's topic first, right? Also, I don't see that anything here meets WP:RS. IMDB is just a user-generated content website and may not be reliable, and the second source I don't know about either.-YeaH, Ino (talk) 16:24, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

French Wikipedia=738,189 articles. English Wikipedia=2,659,859 articles. Presumably this will be among the next million or two articles written in French.--Fullobeans (talk) 06:36, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Weak keep, seems marginally notable.-Juvvaglott (talk) 19:55, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Also a note - the nominator has been indef blocked. — neuro^(talk) 20:21, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Delete. Stifle (talk) 11:13, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Five Keys of the Sphinx

Does not meet the criteria at Wikipedia:Notability_(books) --fvw * 11:32, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Does not meet the requirements of WP:BK, since it has not recieved any coverage in non-trivial publications, nor has it won any awards and it isn't of historical importance. —Cyclonenim (talk · contribs · email) 11:53, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: Doesn't show notability per WP:BK. Schuym1 (talk) 16:29, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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Delete. A minor author's minor book by a minor publisher. Neither has any third party coverage. ^LeaveSleaves _talk 17:09, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per Cyclonenim. Quid Pro Quo²³ 21:57, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: Does not meet the requirements of WP:BK at this time.--Oliver Twist ed 09:16, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Cirt (talk) 02:10, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Pierre-Mathieu Strube

Doesn't meet WP:BIO criteria --fvw * 11:04, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is it better now ? more links and data linked. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Seokjae (talk • contribs) 13:29, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, but please have a look at WP:BIO. You need references to third parties writing about him, newspaper articles or that sort of thing. --fvw * 13:31, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete: Doesn't show notability per WP:BIO. Schuym1 (talk) 17:14, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Weak delete as there do seem to be some sources... but not many. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 03:40, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
delete fails WP:Notability based on given info. While a search on the subject gives room for notability to be granted based on more research, the article as it stands can not be verified with sources presented in article, and a quick search provides little information in English-based textMrathel (talk) 15:47, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. Stifle (talk) 11:10, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Immediate Gratification Players

Fails to meet WP:GROUP, only media references are in the university paper. --fvw * 09:33, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - there are 14 references, only 5 are from the university paper. --SMSpivey * 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but the others aren't about the subject of the article, but rather about people tangentially related to it. --fvw * 10:31, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The notability of an improv group is usually measured by the quality of the people it produces. The most famous professional groups are only notable because they were created by or produced successful comedians (UCB: Amy Poehler, Second City: Bill Murray, etc). Having successful alumni is much more important than having a mention or two in a major newspaper as a direct indicator as to how influential a given improv troupe is. --SMSpivey (talk) 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Keep - I reckon these people deserve a mention. Please note that for comedians, different rules apply for notability standards. CD album sales can be measured and charted, but the success of an improv group has to be measured differently. - Richard Cavell (talk) 10:31, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect - as of right now, in that the group is mentioned and referenced in the Harvard article. However as it states in the Harvard piece: “…are among the oldest collegiate Improvisational comedy groups in the nation”, can be verified (Sorry to say I could not find any source to substantiate this claim, searching for over an hour), I will definitely change my opinion to Keep. ShoesssS ^Talk 14:59, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - Added non-Harvard sources for the information in the article. Couldn't find any evidence outside of the Harvard College article that the group is one of the oldest, so I removed that. In general, it is pretty difficult to find media articles related to improv groups outside of the top few professional ones (Upright Citizens Brigade, the Second City, Groundlings). SMSpivey (talk) 09:48, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was speedy delete. MBisanz ^talk 03:41, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Smart Beat

Completely lacks any notability, no references or citations, frankly sounds more like an ad than an encyclopedic article. Quid Pro Quo²³ 08:01, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Might well be a speedy due to lack of any assertion of notability, though you'd have to check the exact wording for articles of this type. delete. --fvw * 09:34, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy delete as spam. Alexius08 (talk) 12:19, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, highly notable, I was going to create an article about this myself.-YeaH, Ino (talk) 12:56, 14 December 2008 (UTC) — YeaH, Ino (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

Comment: Keep in mind that this user has been blocked indefinitely for disruptive editing. Quid Pro Quo²³ 23:50, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete as spam. Edward321 (talk) 15:04, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy lack of content. - Mgm|^(talk) 15:58, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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I Speedy Delete, therefore, it's spam. PhishRCool ^{Talk / Contribs / Secret Page} 23:00, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy delete (A1) — it is not spam (nor is it A1 Steak Sauce), it is cheese, and not this cheese. In either case, no context. MuZemike (talk) 23:43, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy delete (A1) No context. Also, if it has context, it's spam. Also, it's not notable. Geoff ^T ^C 19:25, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was deleted by Jerry.. (non-admin closure) — neuro^(talk) 20:20, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Crazy Monster's Party!

Self-contradictory, unreferenced and impossible to find references to on imdb and google. --fvw * 08:00, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - this is a test or a hoax or vandalism. The IMAX version was released two years before the first IMAX theatre existed. It includes characters that Disney did not have rights to use, most notably King Kong, who was the subject of an intense intellectual property dispute at about that time... if Walt Disney had got involved in that dispute we'd know about it. - Richard Cavell (talk) 10:08, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, notable.-YeaH, Ino (talk) 12:58, 14 December 2008 (UTC) — YeaH, Ino (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
- Comment: This user has been blocked indefinitely for disruptive editing. Robert Skyhawk ^{So sue me!} (You'll lose) 17:01, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Seems like a hoax, per nom. Created by User:CrazyMonsterPartyMovie1967. Lugnuts (talk) 13:36, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete as hoax. Edward321 (talk) 15:27, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
G3 hoax, vandalism, misinformation. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • ^{(Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP)} 16:12, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Note This is a classic User:Lyle123 hoax. Creator now blocked indefinitely as a sockpuppet. NawlinWiki (talk) 23:02, 20 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep per the snowball clause. Non-admin closure. MuZemike (talk) 21:23, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Brian Cushing

Wikipedia has come to an understanding of what constitute notable athletes. These guidelines have been discussed and debated extensively and used repeatedly as the foundation for AFD discussions conerning non-notable athletes. Per WP:ATHLETE athletes generally have to fit one of the following two categories to warrant their own article:

People who have competed at the fully professional level of a sport, or a competition of equivalent standing in a non-league sport such as swimming, golf or tennis.[9]
People who have competed at the highest amateur level of a sport, usually considered to mean the Olympic Games or World Championships.

This means that eventhough an athlete may receive coverage in their local paper or play at a collegiate level, where they receive coverage for their involvement in a team, they are generally not notable until they play at the highest level. There are several HS and College players who have existing articles.

This is a non-notable college football player who hasn't done anything. He is no more notable than your local newsreporter or councilwoman. Just because there are some articles, doesn't make the player notable. ---Balloonman ^PoppaBalloon 07:01, 14 December 2008 (UTC) As there appears to be a debate at wp:athlete, I notified them of this ongoing afd[reply]

Keep Sources check out, passes WP:N §hep • ¡Talk to me! 11:53, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep WP:ATHLETE is an exception to general WP:N requirements, not a replacement of them. There may well be professional athletes that would not meet general notability requirements, see Keith Cash and Kerry Cash but they get in despite no references or reliable sources other than them having played in the NFL. Conversely, there are athletes who do not meet WP:ATHLETE but do get in under general notability standards. See Brian Orakpo and Colt McCoy as examples of athletes who have not played at the professional level but have garnered enough notability at the college level to be included.--2008Olympian^chitchat 12:19, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: Passes WP:NOTABILITY. It doesn't matter that he isn't a professional athlete, because the sources show notability. Schuym1 (talk) 16:58, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Meets general notability guidelines, which generally take precedence over specific conditions listed under WP:ATHLETE (which are meant to help establish notability if the general conditions aren't met). --ZimZalaBim ^talk 17:31, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Subject is covered by LA Times, USA Today, and other news sources in addition to sports-specific media. WP:ATHLETE is a non-issue here; I'm not going to go through all the other Balloonman nominations below, but superficially it sure seems there is pointyness afoot. Townlake (talk) 19:20, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Passes WP:N, which is merely supplimented by WP:ATHLETE. — neuro^(talk) 20:23, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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Keep, scrolling up from WP:ATHLETE we find that "should a person fail to meet these additional criteria, they may still be notable under Wikipedia:Notability." Juzhong (talk) 10:00, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy Keep. --Bobak (talk) 17:21, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep WP:N trumps WP:ATHLETE. I expect every competent administrator to know this. SashaNein (talk) 19:30, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was WITHDRAWN - Nominator endorses early closure. ZimZalaBim ^talk 04:43, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Joe McKnight

AfDs for this article:

Articles for deletion/Joe McKnight

Wikipedia has come to an understanding of what constitute notable athletes. These guidelines have been discussed and debated extensively and used repeatedly as the foundation for AFD discussions conerning non-notable athletes. Per WP:ATHLETE athletes generally have to fit one of the following two categories to warrant their own article:

People who have competed at the fully professional level of a sport, or a competition of equivalent standing in a non-league sport such as swimming, golf or tennis.[9]
People who have competed at the highest amateur level of a sport, usually considered to mean the Olympic Games or World Championships.

This means that eventhough an athlete may receive coverage in their local paper or play at a collegiate level, where they receive coverage for their involvement in a team, they are generally not notable until they play at the highest level. There are several HS and College players who have existing articles.

This is a non-notable college football player who hasn't done anything. He is no more notable than your local newsreporter or councilwoman. Just because there are some articles, doesn't make the player notable. ---Balloonman ^PoppaBalloon 07:01, 14 December 2008 (UTC)As there appears to be a debate at wp:athlete, I notified them of this ongoing afd[reply]

Delete. Per nom. Kittybrewster ☎ 08:56, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep USC's leading rusher. 100% future NFL player. ––bender235 (talk) 10:57, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. (Balloonman has nominated several college football players for deletion with the same rationale, so I will post my same rationale to all of his AfDs.) WP:ATHLETE is considered to be an additional criterion to notability, as indicated here: (Should a person fail to meet these additional criteria, they may still be notable under Wikipedia:Notability.) Whether this player may or may not meet WP:ATHLETE should not be the question. The basic criteria, as outlined by WP:BIO, is that these players must be the subject of published[3] secondary source material which is reliable, intellectually independent,[4] and independent of the subject.[5]. It also says that if the depth of the coverage is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be needed to prove notability. Take a look at the sources referenced by the article - do they not meet these requirements? I think they do. BlueAg09 (Talk) 11:24, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Easily notable. Also meets WP:ATHLETE as competing in the highest amateur level of his sport (even by the strictest possible definition: a BCS bowl). Oren0 (talk) 11:38, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Sources check out, passes WP:N §hep • ¡Talk to me! 11:52, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep WP:ATHLETE is an exception to general WP:N requirements, not a replacement of them. There may well be professional athletes that would not meet general notability requirements, see Keith Cash and Kerry Cash but they get in despite no references or reliable sources other than them having played in the NFL. Conversely, there are athletes who do not meet WP:ATHLETE but do get in under general notability standards. See Brian Orakpo and Colt McCoy as examples of athletes who have not played at the professional level but have garnered enough notability at the college level to be included.--2008Olympian^chitchat 12:18, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Meets general notability guidelines, which generally take precedence over specific conditions listed under WP:ATHLETE (which are meant to help establish notability if the general conditions aren't met). --ZimZalaBim ^talk 17:31, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Passes WP:N, which is merely supplimented by WP:ATHLETE. — neuro^(talk) 20:23, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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Keep Another pointless AfD. Tool2Die4 (talk) 02:59, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy Keep and possibly reprimand. --Bobak (talk) 17:19, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep WP:N trumps WP:ATHLETE. I expect every competent administrator to know this. SashaNein (talk) 19:29, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete SNG guidelines should be viewed as exclusionary rules: a way of preventing certain topics from overrunning their reasonable prominence. In WP:MUSIC, it's bar bands that may have gotten two reviews, in WP:ATHLETE, it's college football players. I firmly believe that topics have to meet both the general notability guideline and any subject specific guidelines that apply.—Kww(talk) 22:30, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - This reveals a weakness in WP:ATHLETE, in that many college players are actually more notable than a large number of NFL players in real life. Our guidelines don't reflect that, though. McKnight passes the general notability guideline with ease. Giants2008 (17-14) 22:49, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Great college player, probably will be star in NFL and per WP:ATHLETE which does include college players at the D1 level it must stay.--Iamawesome800 23:51, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Keep - Passes WP:ATHLETE: plays at the highest amateur level for his sport - Division I American college football. Grsz ¹¹ 03:53, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. WP:SNOW MBisanz ^talk 03:42, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Terrelle Pryor

AfDs for this article:

Articles for deletion/Terrelle Pryor

Wikipedia has come to an understanding of what constitute notable athletes. These guidelines have been discussed and debated extensively and used repeatedly as the foundation for AFD discussions conerning non-notable athletes. Per WP:ATHLETE athletes generally have to fit one of the following two categories to warrant their own article:

People who have competed at the fully professional level of a sport, or a competition of equivalent standing in a non-league sport such as swimming, golf or tennis.[9]
People who have competed at the highest amateur level of a sport, usually considered to mean the Olympic Games or World Championships.

This means that eventhough an athlete may receive coverage in their local paper or play at a collegiate level, where they receive coverage for their involvement in a team, they are generally not notable until they play at the highest level. There are several HS and College players who have existing articles.

This is a non-notable college football player who hasn't done anything. He is no more notable than your local newsreporter or councilwoman. Just because there are some articles, doesn't make the player notable. ---Balloonman ^PoppaBalloon 07:01, 14 December 2008 (UTC) As there appears to be a debate at wp:athlete, I notified them of this ongoing afd[reply]

Keep Hall Trophy (U.S. Army Player of the Year), PARADE National Player of the Year and All-American, Pete Dawkins Trophy (U.S. Army All-American MVP), received national news coverage. You're generic argument you're using for all of these Afds is absurd. §hep • ¡Talk to me! 08:52, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The US Army Player of the Year = Hall Trophy, it has been awarded since 2000. The Pete Dawkins award has been awarded since 2001. While the awards may have reached the level that the awards have minor notability, winning them doesn't equate to notability (yet.) Being recognized by PARADE Magazine as player of the year, however, might be---while I know that PARADE is a reputable magazine, I don't know the value of that particular award.---Balloonman ^PoppaBalloon 09:20, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, I'm quite aware of how college football awards work. How's my mod? I also don't understand the logic that winning a notable award doesn't equate to some notability in and of itself. §hep • ¡Talk to me! 09:43, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So you're assessing the value of those awards based on what - your opinion? Note that these are national awards given to only select football players in the country. There are a large number of teenagers who play high school football, and only about 60 players, for example, earn the Parade honor. BlueAg09 (Talk) 10:25, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Per nom. Kittybrewster ☎ 09:01, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. One of you tried to google him? In order to figure out how notable he is, I mean. Try it! ––bender235 (talk) 10:55, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Keep per Stepshep above. Previous consensus has been that NCAA FBS football players meet WP:ATHLETE, and being starting QB for a major school certainly qualifies there. The independent sources on him are staggering. Also keep in mind that WP:ATHLETE is just about presumption of notability; an athlete can be notable without meeting it. Oren0 (talk) 11:13, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. (Balloonman has nominated several college football players for deletion with the same rationale, so I will post my same rationale to all of his AfDs.) WP:ATHLETE is considered to be an additional criterion to notability, as indicated here: (Should a person fail to meet these additional criteria, they may still be notable under Wikipedia:Notability.) Whether this player may or may not meet WP:ATHLETE should not be the question. The basic criteria, as outlined by WP:BIO, is that these players must be the subject of published[3] secondary source material which is reliable, intellectually independent,[4] and independent of the subject.[5]. It also says that if the depth of the coverage is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be needed to prove notability. Take a look at the sources referenced by the article - do they not meet these requirements? I think they do. BlueAg09 (Talk) 11:25, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep WP:ATHLETE is an exception to general WP:N requirements, not a replacement of them. There may well be professional athletes that would not meet general notability requirements, see Keith Cash and Kerry Cash but they get in despite no references or reliable sources other than them having played in the NFL. Conversely, there are athletes who do not meet WP:ATHLETE but do get in under general notability standards. See Brian Orakpo and Colt McCoy as examples of athletes who have not played at the professional level but have garnered enough notability at the college level to be included. Pryor seems to be one of those who has reached general notability standards even in high school. Sergio Kindle is such a player. Sometimes these players don't make it to the pros, see Robert Strait sometimes they do, see Adrian L. Peterson.--2008Olympian^chitchat 12:14, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. I don't like Ohio State. However, Pryor is one of what I expect would be a handful of players who have been so thoroughly covered before entering college to have achieved notability. I support WP:ATHLETE, but players who meet the GNG should have articles as well. Pryor is one of those. Xymmax ^{So let it be written} _{So let it be done} 13:13, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Meets general notability guidelines, which generally take precedence over specific conditions listed under WP:ATHLETE (which are meant to help establish notability if the general conditions aren't met). --ZimZalaBim ^talk 17:29, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Passes WP:N, which is merely supplimented by WP:ATHLETE. — neuro^(talk) 20:25, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep If this person did nothing, then how could he have won all the awards that he won? Tavix (talk) 22:54, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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Comment. Please stop referring to a nonsensical guideline. Taken literally, it means that, say, a standing champion of Europe in marathone who has not yet appeared at Olympics is non-notable, but a #99 in Europe who was spotted at one of countless professional competitions is notable. It may be relevant for indigenous American sports, but hardly for anything else. NVO (talk) 00:31, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You're missing the point of WP:ATHLETE. It doesn't say that anyone who doesn't meet it is not notable, only that anyone who does meet it is presumed notable. Also, if you think the guideline is "nonsensical" then go to WT:BIO and try to get it changed. Oren0 (talk) 01:39, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Then what is it doing here, used as a basis for deletion? Maybe I'm not the only one missing the point? Maybe it's not the first time that "guideline" is used as a kill tool? Yes, everybody agrees it's a supplement to WP:N just like WP:N is supplement to WP:RS... in real life it's a kill tool. P.S. If you haven't noticed - both BIO and ATHLETE have been tightly packed lately, - I did speak out there. NVO (talk) 13:39, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think that's an excellent question. Baloonman has nominated several pages like this that he deems to fail WP:ATHLETE even though IMO they all easily pass WP:N. Why he is doing this is anyone's guess. Oren0 (talk) 18:28, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
An AFD like this is actually good for the article... I regard Balloonman's AFD as a call to improve the text and to insure against further DRs. But it's no excuse for a failed rationale. NVO (talk) 20:07, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Please see my comment below, I was going on what appears to be an outdated mode of thinking. ATHLETE/BIO was, at one time, interpretted much stricter---there have been articles of people who were drafted deleted in the past because they hadn't played at a professional level. That appears to have changed, and I'm fine with these being closed as consensus seems to have changed.---Balloonman ^PoppaBalloon 20:12, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep These are getting absurd. Tool2Die4 (talk) 02:58, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Extra Strong Keep Ask yourself one question here. Is Terrelle Pryor a notable athlete? In this era of sports, is the number one high school player in the country a notable athlete? IS THE STARTING QUARTERBACK FOR THE OHIO STATE UNIVERSITY A NOTABLE ATHLETE? I THE FRESHMEN OF THE YEAR A NOTABLE ATHLETE? The answers to all these questions are beyond obvious. This is not an exception, being an exception has nothing to do with it. And to delete this based on an interpretation of rules would be to say college football players are not notable athletes. That would say Heisman trophy winners who are still playing (ala Tim Tebow and Sam Bradford, the quarterbacks playing for the national championship) are not notable. And you cannot tell anyone, with maybe the exception of the Olympics, that there is higher level of amateur competition than Division-1 college football. So the idea of deleting an article on Terrelle Pryor based on notability is ridiculous.
Keep WP:N trumps WP:ATHLETE. I expect every competent administrator to know this. SashaNein (talk) 19:21, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Keep - "This is a non-notable college football player who hasn't done anything." While Balloonman is a fine editor, I vehemently disagree in this case. Just being the starting quarterback for Ohio State, one of the top teams in the country, means that he's done something. College football is nearly as popular in the U.S. as the NFL, and saying that he hasn't done anything doesn't reflect what people who follow sports here think. Anyway, Pryor meets the general notability guideline easily, so he should be kept. Perhaps the guidelines should be looked at. Giants2008 (17-14) 22:58, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Super Strong Keep Come on now this definetely meets WP:ATHLETE.--Iamawesome800 23:54, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. WP:SNOW MBisanz ^talk 03:42, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Jimmy Clausen

AfDs for this article:

Wikipedia has come to an understanding of what constitute notable athletes. These guidelines have been discussed and debated extensively and used repeatedly as the foundation for AFD discussions conerning non-notable athletes. Per WP:ATHLETE athletes generally have to fit one of the following two categories to warrant their own article:

People who have competed at the fully professional level of a sport, or a competition of equivalent standing in a non-league sport such as swimming, golf or tennis.[9]
People who have competed at the highest amateur level of a sport, usually considered to mean the Olympic Games or World Championships.

This means that eventhough an athlete may receive coverage in their local paper or play at a collegiate level, where they receive coverage for their involvement in a team, they are generally not notable until they play at the highest level. There are several HS and College players who have existing articles.

This is a non-notable college football player who hasn't done anything. He is no more notable than your local newsreporter or councilwoman. Just because there are some articles, doesn't make the player notable.

Jimmy Clausen is arguably the more notable of the people I've nominated due to his arrest. It should also be noted that his first AFD resulted in a delete.---Balloonman ^PoppaBalloon 07:01, 14 December 2008 (UTC)As there appears to be a debate at wp:athlete, I notified them of this ongoing afd[reply]

Delete. Per nom. Arrest doesnt make him notable. Kittybrewster ☎ 09:00, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Just like Terrrelle Pryor. Clausen is Notre Dame's starting quarterback. Does he have to win a freaking Heisman to be considered "notable", or what? ––bender235 (talk) 10:56, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Strong keep - Previous consensus has indicated that playing D1 sports qualifies per WP:ATHLETE. This means that any D1 FBS football player is presumed notable. Clausen is more notable than 95% of them. Being the starting QB for a school like Notre Dame easily qualifies one to be notable. Oren0 (talk) 11:10, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. (Balloonman has nominated several college football players for deletion with the same rationale, so I will post my same rationale to all of his AfDs.) WP:ATHLETE is considered to be an additional criterion to notability, as indicated here: (Should a person fail to meet these additional criteria, they may still be notable under Wikipedia:Notability.) Whether this player may or may not meet WP:ATHLETE should not be the question. The basic criteria, as outlined by WP:BIO, is that these players must be the subject of published[3] secondary source material which is reliable, intellectually independent,[4] and independent of the subject.[5]. It also says that if the depth of the coverage is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be needed to prove notability. Take a look at the sources referenced by the article - do they not meet these requirements? I think they do. BlueAg09 (Talk) 11:26, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Sources check out, passes WP:N §hep • ¡Talk to me! 11:51, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep WP:ATHLETE is an exception to general WP:N requirements, not a replacement of them. There may well be professional athletes that would not meet general notability requirements, see Keith Cash and Kerry Cash but they get in despite no references or reliable sources other than them having played in the NFL. Conversely, there are athletes who do not meet WP:ATHLETE but do get in under general notability standards. See Brian Orakpo and Colt McCoy as examples of athletes who have not played at the professional level but have garnered enough notability at the college level to be included.--2008Olympian^chitchat 12:19, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Strong keep - Nominator's own use of the condition "generally" reveals that the 2 conditions presented aren't the only factors to consider. Division 1 starter for team with national coverage; ranked #1 high school player by various national media; obvious notability. --ZimZalaBim ^talk 16:12, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy keep Is this serious? Let's get real. Tool2Die4 (talk) 16:31, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Keep -- Why are we even legitimizing this ridiculous argument? Balloonman is promoting a deliberately absurd interpretation of the WP:ATHLETE standard in order to make what amounts to a political statement. If this behavior has no consequence, then 95% of the articles on Wikipedia could be flagged for deletion by a similarly impertinent user with an axe to grind. Trowbridge (talk) 16:35, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Passes WP:N, which is merely supplimented by WP:ATHLETE. — neuro^(talk) 20:25, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Living people-related deletion discussions. --Erwin85Bot (talk) 00:05, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Strong keep - The question here is whether college football players are notable athletes (which is ridiculous to even be arguing over, why is Reggie Bush a celeb right now? Not because of what he's done in the NFL)? Since the answer is yes, then any nominations to delete college football players should be denied, because there is no question there are notable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.241.151.68 (talk) 06:52, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Keep WP:N trumps WP:ATHLETE, and Jimmy boy passes it. This wave of controversial (and WRONG) AFDs from the nom are bordering on disruptive. I now have very serious doubts that the nom can close any AFD in a competent matter anymore. SashaNein (talk) 19:18, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Passes general notability guideline easily. Giants2008 (17-14) 23:02, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Keep Per WP:ATHLETE.--Iamawesome800 23:55, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was WITHDRAWN - Nominator endorses early closure. ZimZalaBim ^talk 04:44, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Marc Tyler

AfDs for this article:

Articles for deletion/Marc Tyler

Wikipedia has come to an understanding of what constitute notable athletes. These guidelines have been discussed and debated extensively and used repeatedly as the foundation for AFD discussions conerning non-notable athletes. Per WP:ATHLETE athletes generally have to fit one of the following two categories to warrant their own article:

People who have competed at the fully professional level of a sport, or a competition of equivalent standing in a non-league sport such as swimming, golf or tennis.[9]
People who have competed at the highest amateur level of a sport, usually considered to mean the Olympic Games or World Championships.

This means that eventhough an athlete may receive coverage in their local paper or play at a collegiate level, where they receive coverage for their involvement in a team, they are generally not notable until they play at the highest level. There are several HS and College players who have existing articles.

This is a non-notable college football player who hasn't done anything. He is no more notable than your local newsreporter or councilwoman. Just because there are some articles, doesn't make the player notable. ---Balloonman ^PoppaBalloon 07:01, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The notion that NCAA Div 1 players are automatically notable as having played at the highest level of amateur sports is a relatively new one. Now I am not opposed to consensus changing in this regard, but I do take exception to the assumption of bad faith or other allegations made to me here and via email. The college football program doesn't even make the claim that playing for a Div 1 team makes a player notable. In fact, according to their criteria, one needed to go on to the pro's, win one of a handful of awards, or be inducted into a the college football hall of fame. Furthermore, there iz an extended history wherein college players and even minor league professionals (NFLE, IHL, minor league baseball, etc) are not considered notable. I reviewed about 4 months of AfD's and couldn't find a single occurance wherein those claims were supported. In fact, the precidence is that it doesn't matter if they have some coverage at a lower level, they aren't generally considered notable unless they go on to the pros. See the following as just a sampling of the precidence.

Again, if consensus has legitimately changed over the past few months, I am fine with closing these now. But I do take exception to allegations of bad faith or pointiness. Consensus WAS that College players and Minor League Professionals were NOT notable. The highest level of amateur sports WAS considered to be the case only if there were no professional levels or we were talking about world championship/olympics.---Balloonman ^PoppaBalloon 22:00, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Look man, these all of these example articles are athletes that failed both WP:N and WP:ATHLETE. The fact that some of the participants only said "fails WP:ATHLETE" doesn't mean that you should go find a bunch of players that fail WP:ATHLETE but meet WP:N to put up for deletion.--2008Olympian^chitchat 03:59, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

First, I posted them as an example of the fact that apparently consensus has changed. *I* made a good faith nominations based upon what I understood consensus to be on the subject, apparently it has changed. There was a time where players who were drafted, and had college resumes were deleted per ATHLETE. But it appears that consensus has changed, and I'm fine with that... hell I encourage that. Thus, my note, and let me bold it this time: I am fine with closing these now. I don't need the rude look man and other inuendo of bad faith that I've seen here, at my talk page, and via email.---Balloonman ^PoppaBalloon 18:58, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As there appears to be a debate at wp:athlete, I notified them of this ongoing afd

Delete. Per nom. Kittybrewster ☎ 08:57, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. (Balloonman has nominated several college football players for deletion with the same rationale, so I will post my same rationale to all of his AfDs.) WP:ATHLETE is considered to be an additional criterion to notability, as indicated here: (Should a person fail to meet these additional criteria, they may still be notable under Wikipedia:Notability.) Whether this player may or may not meet WP:ATHLETE should not be the question. The basic criteria, as outlined by WP:BIO, is that these players must be the subject of published[3] secondary source material which is reliable, intellectually independent,[4] and independent of the subject.[5]. It also says that if the depth of the coverage is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be needed to prove notability. Take a look at the sources referenced by the article - do they not meet these requirements? I think they do. BlueAg09 (Talk) 11:27, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Meets WP:ATHLETE (competed in D1 FBS football, the highest amateur level of his sport) and WP:N (awards and sources from the article). Oren0 (talk) 11:39, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, in the past the highest level of amateur sports has been read not to include division 1 sports. This may have changed, but previously, that criteria was used for sports wherein there were no professional levels.---Balloonman ^PoppaBalloon 18:23, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Read the guideline. It says "highest amateur level." It does not say "highest amateur level if there is no professional level." Not to mention that every college athlete you've nominated easily meets WP:N independent of any presumption of notability from WP:ATHLETE. Additionally, many of your AfD's are from some time ago when WP:ATHLETE was very different than it is now. In June, the line on amateurs was: "Competitors and coaches who have competed at the highest level in amateur sports and who meet the general criteria of multiple secondary sources published about them." Clearly things that failed that guideline could pass based on how the policy reads today. Oren0 (talk) 23:50, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Additionally, your examples above are from baseball, hockey, and soccer. In none of those instances is NCAA D1 competition the highest level of amateur competition (all three are Olympic sports). There is no Olympics for football, so D1 FBS competition is the highest amateur level. Oren0 (talk) 04:05, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Sources check out, passes WP:N §hep • ¡Talk to me! 11:50, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Meets general notability guidelines, which generally take precedence over specific conditions listed under WP:ATHLETE (which are meant to help establish notability if the general conditions aren't met). --ZimZalaBim ^talk 17:30, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Passes WP:N, which is merely supplimented by WP:ATHLETE. — neuro^(talk) 20:26, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Living people-related deletion discussions. --Erwin85Bot (talk) 00:05, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Passes WP:N does not matter that it fails WP:ATHLETE.--2008Olympian^chitchat 04:02, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy Keep and possibly reprimand. --Bobak (talk) 17:20, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep WP:N trumps WP:ATHLETE. I expect every competent administrator to know this. SashaNein (talk) 19:21, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Keep WP:ATHLETE--Iamawesome800 23:55, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Keep - Passes WP:ATHLETE: plays at the highest amateur level for his sport - Division I American college football. Grsz ¹¹ 03:47, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was WITHDRAWN - Nominator endorses early closure. ZimZalaBim ^talk 04:41, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Darrell Scott (American football)

AfDs for this article:

Articles for deletion/Darrell Scott (American football)

Wikipedia has come to an understanding of what constitute notable athletes. These guidelines have been discussed and debated extensively and used repeatedly as the foundation for AFD discussions conerning non-notable athletes. Per WP:ATHLETE athletes generally have to fit one of the following two categories to warrant their own article:

People who have competed at the fully professional level of a sport, or a competition of equivalent standing in a non-league sport such as swimming, golf or tennis.[9]
People who have competed at the highest amateur level of a sport, usually considered to mean the Olympic Games or World Championships.

This means that eventhough an athlete may receive coverage in their local paper or play at a collegiate level, where they receive coverage for their involvement in a team, they are generally not notable until they play at the highest level. There are several HS and College players who have existing articles.

This is a non-notable college football player who hasn't done anything. He is no more notable than your local newsreporter or councilwoman. Just because there are some articles, doesn't make the player notable. ---Balloonman ^PoppaBalloon 07:01, 14 December 2008 (UTC)As there appears to be a debate at wp:athlete, I notified them of this ongoing afd[reply]

Delete. Per nom. Kittybrewster ☎ 08:52, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Do you consider the New York Times your average local newspaper? ––bender235 (talk) 11:00, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Regardless of WP:ATHLETE, how can you deny that the 12 sources in the article are more than enough to meet WP:N? Oren0 (talk) 11:18, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. (Balloonman has nominated several college football players for deletion with the same rationale, so I will post my same rationale to all of his AfDs.) WP:ATHLETE is considered to be an additional criterion to notability, as indicated here: (Should a person fail to meet these additional criteria, they may still be notable under Wikipedia:Notability.) Whether this player may or may not meet WP:ATHLETE should not be the question. The basic criteria, as outlined by WP:BIO, is that these players must be the subject of published[3] secondary source material which is reliable, intellectually independent,[4] and independent of the subject.[5]. It also says that if the depth of the coverage is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be needed to prove notability. Take a look at the sources referenced by the article - do they not meet these requirements? I think they do. BlueAg09 (Talk) 11:27, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Sources check out, passes WP:N §hep • ¡Talk to me! 11:50, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep WP:ATHLETE is an exception to general WP:N requirements, not a replacement of them. There may well be professional athletes that would not meet general notability requirements, see Keith Cash and Kerry Cash but they get in despite no references or reliable sources other than them having played in the NFL. Conversely, there are athletes who do not meet WP:ATHLETE but do get in under general notability standards. See Brian Orakpo and Colt McCoy as examples of athletes who have not played at the professional level but have garnered enough notability at the college level to be included. Scott seems to be one of those who has reached general notability standards even in high school. Sergio Kindle is such a player. Sometimes these players don't make it to the pros, see Robert Strait sometimes they do, see Adrian L. Peterson.--2008Olympian^chitchat 12:16, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Meets general notability guidelines, which generally take precedence over specific conditions listed under WP:ATHLETE (which are meant to help establish notability if the general conditions aren't met). --ZimZalaBim ^talk 17:30, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Passes WP:N, which is merely supplimented by WP:ATHLETE. — neuro^(talk) 20:26, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Living people-related deletion discussions. --Erwin85Bot (talk) 00:04, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep WP:N trumps WP:ATHLETE. I expect every competent administrator to know this. SashaNein (talk) 19:29, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Super Keep One policy: WP:ATHLETE.--Iamawesome800 23:58, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Keep - Passes WP:ATHLETE: plays at the highest amateur level for his sport - Division I American college football. Grsz ¹¹ 03:54, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was WITHDRAWN - Nominator endorses early closure. ZimZalaBim ^talk 04:39, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Jermie Calhoun

AfDs for this article:

Articles for deletion/Jermie Calhoun

Wikipedia has come to an understanding of what constitute notable athletes. These guidelines have been discussed and debated extensively and used repeatedly as the foundation for AFD discussions conerning non-notable athletes. Per WP:ATHLETE athletes generally have to fit one of the following two categories to warrant their own article:

People who have competed at the fully professional level of a sport, or a competition of equivalent standing in a non-league sport such as swimming, golf or tennis.[9]
People who have competed at the highest amateur level of a sport, usually considered to mean the Olympic Games or World Championships.

This means that eventhough an athlete may receive coverage in their local paper or play at a collegiate level, where they receive coverage for their involvement in a team, they are generally not notable until they play at the highest level. There are several HS and College players who have existing articles.

This is a non-notable college football player who hasn't done anything. He is no more notable than your local newsreporter or councilwoman. Just because there are some articles, doesn't make the player notable. ---Balloonman ^PoppaBalloon 07:01, 14 December 2008 (UTC) As there appears to be a debate at wp:athlete, I notified them of this ongoing afd[reply]

Delete. Per nom. Kittybrewster ☎ 08:58, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. It's not up to you who has or has not "done something." WP:ATHLETE is only about presumption of notability, and the seven non-trivial sources on this page and the dozens more one finds when googling make this meet WP:N, which is what really counts. Oren0 (talk) 11:16, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. (Balloonman has nominated several college football players for deletion with the same rationale, so I will post my same rationale to all of his AfDs.) WP:ATHLETE is considered to be an additional criterion to notability, as indicated here: (Should a person fail to meet these additional criteria, they may still be notable under Wikipedia:Notability.) Whether this player may or may not meet WP:ATHLETE should not be the question. The basic criteria, as outlined by WP:BIO, is that these players must be the subject of published[3] secondary source material which is reliable, intellectually independent,[4] and independent of the subject.[5]. It also says that if the depth of the coverage is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be needed to prove notability. Take a look at the sources referenced by the article - do they not meet these requirements? I think they do. BlueAg09 (Talk) 11:27, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Sources check out, passes WP:N §hep • ¡Talk to me! 11:51, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Meets general notability guidelines, which generally take precedence over specific conditions listed under WP:ATHLETE (which are meant to help establish notability if the general conditions aren't met). --ZimZalaBim ^talk 17:30, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Passes WP:N, which is merely supplimented by WP:ATHLETE. — neuro^(talk) 20:26, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Living people-related deletion discussions. --Erwin85Bot (talk) 00:06, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep WP:N trumps WP:ATHLETE. I expect every competent administrator to know this. SashaNein (talk) 19:27, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep WP:ATHLETE--Iamawesome800 23:59, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Passes WP:ATHLETE: plays at the highest amateur level for his sport - Division I American college football. Grsz ¹¹ 03:55, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was WITHDRAWN - Nominator endorses early closure. ZimZalaBim ^talk 04:48, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Russell Shepard

AfDs for this article:

Articles for deletion/Russell Shepard

Wikipedia has come to an understanding of what constitute notable athletes. These guidelines have been discussed and debated extensively and used repeatedly as the foundation for AFD discussions conerning non-notable athletes. Per WP:ATHLETE athletes generally have to fit one of the following two categories to warrant their own article:

People who have competed at the fully professional level of a sport, or a competition of equivalent standing in a non-league sport such as swimming, golf or tennis.[9]
People who have competed at the highest amateur level of a sport, usually considered to mean the Olympic Games or World Championships.

This means that eventhough an athlete may receive coverage in their local paper or play at a collegiate level, where they receive coverage for their involvement in a team, they are generally not notable until they play at the highest level. There are several HS and College players who have existing articles.

This is a non-notable highschool football player who hasn't done anything. He is no more notable than your local newsreporter or councilwoman. Just because there are some articles, doesn't make the player notable. ---Balloonman ^PoppaBalloon 07:01, 14 December 2008 (UTC)As there appears to be a debate at wp:athlete, I notified them of this ongoing afd[reply]

Delete. Per nom. Kittybrewster ☎ 08:49, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
~~Neutral~~ Only one source in the article, needs a few more before I could vote Keep. But I didn't look to see if sources could be added so I can't vote Delete. §hep • ¡Talk to me! 11:57, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have added more content that is supported by additional sources. BlueAg09 (Talk) 12:21, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Change to Keep in light of the new sources. §hep • ¡Talk to me! 21:45, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep WP:ATHLETE is an exception to general WP:N requirements, not a replacement of them. There may well be professional athletes that would not meet general notability requirements, see Keith Cash and Kerry Cash but they get in despite no references or reliable sources other than them having played in the NFL. Conversely, there are athletes who do not meet WP:ATHLETE but do get in under general notability standards. See Brian Orakpo and Colt McCoy as examples of athletes who have not played at the professional level but have garnered enough notability at the college level to be included. Shepard seems to be one of those who has reached general notability standards even in high school. Sergio Kindle is such a player. Sometimes these players don't make it to the pros, see Robert Strait sometimes they do, see Adrian L. Peterson.--2008Olympian^chitchat 12:16, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. (Balloonman has nominated several college football players for deletion with the same rationale, so I will post my same rationale to all of his AfDs.) WP:ATHLETE is considered to be an additional criterion to notability, as indicated here: (Should a person fail to meet these additional criteria, they may still be notable under Wikipedia:Notability.) Whether this player may or may not meet WP:ATHLETE should not be the question. The basic criteria, as outlined by WP:BIO, is that these players must be the subject of published[3] secondary source material which is reliable, intellectually independent,[4] and independent of the subject.[5]. It also says that if the depth of the coverage is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be needed to prove notability. Take a look at the sources referenced by the article - do they not meet these requirements? I think they do. BlueAg09 (Talk) 12:21, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Meets general notability guidelines, which generally take precedence over specific conditions listed under WP:ATHLETE (which are meant to help establish notability if the general conditions aren't met). --ZimZalaBim ^talk 17:30, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Passes WP:N, which is merely supplimented by WP:ATHLETE. — neuro^(talk) 20:27, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Living people-related deletion discussions. --Erwin85Bot (talk) 00:05, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep WP:N trumps WP:ATHLETE. I expect every competent administrator to know this. SashaNein (talk) 19:26, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep How about WP:ATHLETE--Iamawesome800 00:00, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was WITHDRAWN - Nominator endorses early closure. ZimZalaBim ^talk 04:47, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Matt Barkley

AfDs for this article:

Articles for deletion/Matt Barkley

Wikipedia has come to an understanding of what constitute notable athletes. These guidelines have been discussed and debated extensively and used repeatedly as the foundation for AFD discussions conerning non-notable athletes. Per WP:ATHLETE athletes generally have to fit one of the following two categories to warrant their own article:

People who have competed at the fully professional level of a sport, or a competition of equivalent standing in a non-league sport such as swimming, golf or tennis.[9]
People who have competed at the highest amateur level of a sport, usually considered to mean the Olympic Games or World Championships.

This means that eventhough an athlete may receive coverage in their local paper or play at a collegiate level, where they receive coverage for their involvement in a team, they are generally not notable until they play at the highest level. There are several HS and College players who have existing articles.

This is a non-notable highschool football player who hasn't done anything. He is no more notable than your local newsreporter or councilwoman. Just because there are some articles, doesn't make the player notable. ---Balloonman ^PoppaBalloon 07:01, 14 December 2008 (UTC)As there appears to be a debate at wp:athlete, I notified them of this ongoing afd[reply]

Delete. Per nom. Kittybrewster ☎ 08:47, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. First HS junior in 20+ years to win the Gatorade Player of the Year Award. If that ain't notable than what? ––bender235 (talk) 10:51, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. (Balloonman has nominated several college football players for deletion with the same rationale, so I will post my same rationale to all of his AfDs.) WP:ATHLETE is considered to be an additional criterion to notability, as indicated here: (Should a person fail to meet these additional criteria, they may still be notable under Wikipedia:Notability.) Whether this player may or may not meet WP:ATHLETE should not be the question. The basic criteria, as outlined by WP:BIO, is that these players must be the subject of published[3] secondary source material which is reliable, intellectually independent,[4] and independent of the subject.[5]. It also says that if the depth of the coverage is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be needed to prove notability. Take a look at the sources referenced by the article - do they not meet these requirements? I think they do. BlueAg09 (Talk) 11:28, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Sources check out, everythng looks good. §hep • ¡Talk to me! 11:48, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Living people-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 16:20, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Athletes-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 16:20, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of American football-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 16:21, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Meets general notability guidelines, which generally take precedence over specific conditions listed under WP:ATHLETE (which are meant to help establish notability if the general conditions aren't met). --ZimZalaBim ^talk 17:29, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Passes WP:N, which is merely supplimented by WP:ATHLETE. — neuro^(talk) 20:27, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy Keep. --Bobak (talk) 17:19, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep WP:N trumps WP:ATHLETE. I expect every competent administrator to know this. SashaNein (talk) 19:26, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep D1 player means WP:ATHLETE--Iamawesome800 00:01, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was WITHDRAWN - Nominator endorses early closure. ZimZalaBim ^talk 04:46, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Devon Kennard

AfDs for this article:

Articles for deletion/Devon Kennard

Wikipedia has come to an understanding of what constitute notable athletes. These guidelines have been discussed and debated extensively and used repeatedly as the foundation for AFD discussions conerning non-notable athletes. Per WP:ATHLETE athletes generally have to fit one of the following two categories to warrant their own article:

People who have competed at the fully professional level of a sport, or a competition of equivalent standing in a non-league sport such as swimming, golf or tennis.[9]
People who have competed at the highest amateur level of a sport, usually considered to mean the Olympic Games or World Championships.

This means that eventhough an athlete may receive coverage in their local paper or play at a collegiate level, where they receive coverage for their involvement in a team, they are generally not notable until they play at the highest level. There are several HS and College players who have existing articles.---Balloonman ^PoppaBalloon 07:01, 14 December 2008 (UTC)As there appears to be a debate at wp:athlete, I notified them of this ongoing afd[reply]

Delete. Per nom. Kittybrewster ☎ 08:50, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Appears to be nonnotable. Keep, in light of new information, passes the notability guidelines that are in good standing. §hep • ¡Talk to me! 11:39, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Meets requirements. ––bender235 (talk) 10:52, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. (Balloonman has nominated several college football players for deletion with the same rationale, so I will post my same rationale to all of his AfDs.) WP:ATHLETE is considered to be an additional criterion to notability, as indicated here: (Should a person fail to meet these additional criteria, they may still be notable under Wikipedia:Notability.) Whether this player may or may not meet WP:ATHLETE should not be the question. The basic criteria, as outlined by WP:BIO, is that these players must be the subject of published[3] secondary source material which is reliable, intellectually independent,[4] and independent of the subject.[5]. It also says that if the depth of the coverage is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be needed to prove notability. Take a look at the sources referenced by the article - do they not meet these requirements? I think they do. BlueAg09 (Talk) 11:28, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Sources check out, passes WP:N §hep • ¡Talk to me! 11:54, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep WP:ATHLETE is an exception to general WP:N requirements, not a replacement of them. There may well be professional athletes that would not meet general notability requirements, see Keith Cash and Kerry Cash but they get in despite no references or reliable sources other than them having played in the NFL. Conversely, there are athletes who do not meet WP:ATHLETE but do get in under general notability standards. See Brian Orakpo and Colt McCoy as examples of athletes who have not played at the professional level but have garnered enough notability at the college level to be included. Kennard seems to be one of those who has reached general notability standards even in high school. Sergio Kindle is such a player. Sometimes these players don't make it to the pros, see Robert Strait sometimes they do, see Adrian L. Peterson.--2008Olympian^chitchat 12:10, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Living people-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 16:17, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Athletes-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 16:17, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of American football-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 16:17, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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Keep - Meets general notability guidelines, which generally take precedence over specific conditions listed under WP:ATHLETE (which are meant to help establish notability if the general conditions aren't met). --ZimZalaBim ^talk 17:28, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Passes WP:N, which is merely supplimented by WP:ATHLETE. — neuro^(talk) 20:28, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - as per above. --Bobak (talk) 17:30, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep WP:N trumps WP:ATHLETE. I expect every competent administrator to know this. SashaNein (talk) 19:21, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep WP:ATHLETE--Iamawesome800 00:02, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Keep - Passes WP:ATHLETE: plays at the highest amateur level for his sport - Division I American college football. Grsz ¹¹ 03:46, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. WP:SNOW MBisanz ^talk 03:43, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sergeant Troy

Delete - Started with a promising template, but got worse when information was added. This article is going nowhere fast. Digital Mischief 06:37, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Article about a 14-year-old rapper sourced only to non-reliable sources such as MySpace and YouTube. The claim that "he was also the first artist to have a article in the Billboard magazine as a Indie Artist" is doubly implausible; I can't find any evidence that he has ever been mentioned in Billboard magazine or on its web site, and Billboard was probably covering indie artists before the subject's grandparents were born. No clear indication that he satisfies any of the WP:MUSIC criteria. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 06:47, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

How is "and Billboard was probably covering indie artists before the subject's grandparents were born." relevant to the discussion? - Mgm|^(talk) 15:51, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think that was a reference to the article, which stated at one point that Sergeant Troy (at 14) was the first Indie artist ever interviewed in Billboard magazine. It seemed like a mild funny. --OliverTwisted (talk) 16:00, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Right. The article still does say, In September 2008, he wrote his hit single "Slide (Sergeant Troy)" he was also the first artist to have a article in the Billboard magazine as a Indie Artist.^{citation needed} I can't find any evidence that there was an article about him in Billboard, and I also suspect that Billboard has written articles about numerous other indie artists over the years. The magazine is over 100 years old, after all, and has been focused on music coverage since the 1930s. Admittedly, I don't know when Troy's grandparents were born so I can't literally confirm that statement. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 20:09, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions. -- Undead Warrior (talk) 07:14, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - when your personal websites are your primary sources, you don't have the foundations for notability, nor for an objective view of the subject. - Richard Cavell (talk) 10:29, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete for excessive use of primary sources and notability concerns. Alexius08 (talk) 12:29, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. No third party notability whatsoever. Pretentious notability with primary sources and fake Commons link. Could we {{db-band}} this?. ^LeaveSleaves _talk 14:17, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: There are many sources in the article, but none of them show notability. Fails WP:MUSIC. Schuym1 (talk) 16:54, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

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The result was Complete trainwreck. However, there was no consensus to delete the article, and that results in a keep outcome by default. I would expect this article to be back here within a few months if it isn't significantly improved in the meantime, and if/when it is, I heartily recommend long comments and discussions are placed on the AFD talk page. Stifle (talk) 11:12, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Bishop–Keisler controversy

Current title: Criticism of nonstandard analysis

Proposed title: Impact of nonstandard analysis or Impact of nonstandard mathematics

Article seems to be a freely written essay about one adverse review of an out-of-print textbook. It does not treat the general topic of teaching of Non-standard analysis to undergraduates, which is a subject that has been discussed at length by reputable educationalists in the academic literature. The Non-standard analysis article should have a section on the teaching of NSA, including a merge of the material from here related to Bishop's book review (part of the content has already been merged). Mathsci (talk) 05:20, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Update. The AfD debate seems to be converging on the proposal to broaden the scope of the article according to one or other of the proposed titles above. (Impact of nonstandard analysis or Impact of nonstandard mathematics). The article would discuss the impact of nonstandard analysis on mathematics, theoretical physics, economics and teaching and include a summary of criticisms. Please add your comments (or further comments) below. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 02:22, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The Update seems to be a fantasy of the nominating editor as nobody else seems to support what he describes as "convergence". Katzmik (talk) 09:36, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - Please refactor this personal attack and read the discussion below more carefully. Mathsci (talk) 09:55, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Note: Somewhere in this discussion someone says the deletion policy mentions merge and delete as a possible outcome. I quote: "Note that an outcome of "merge and delete" may potentially cause GFDL problems if attribution for contributed content is lost in the process. The essay Wikipedia:Merge and delete discusses this." Seeing how this can cause possible problems, I don't recommend doing it. Beter would be to move to talk space and merge and redirect from there if the title is really a problem. - Mgm|^(talk) 15:49, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merge and ~~delete~~ redirect with a more apt title. Mathsci (talk) 06:49, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: AfD should primarily address the suitability of the topic for inclusion in the encyclopedia. The current state of the article only matters when it is argued that there is some problem in principle with ungrading to article to meet inclusion standards. If it is being argued here that the scope of the topic is too narrow, as defined by the chosen title, a request to move may be more appropriate. Charles Matthews (talk) 07:48, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep, based on Michael Hardy's research on sources below. This seems to be a typical case where there are "reliable sources" that can establish notability of the required kind, and the rest of the discussion is largely irrelevant once that is shown. The sources can be used to place the "controversy" (not an inept choice of title) in context. Charles Matthews (talk) 08:13, 16 December 2008 (UTC)s[reply]

Remark. Michael Hardy has provided single-sentence references to this "vitriolic" book review, but that does not warrant a separate article on the negative review nor can it be used to justify the title. That is WP:SYNTH. This case is not "typical", even if the dismissive bluster is. Mathsci (talk) 08:40, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Remark² I don't see that you can talk about "advancing" a proposition based on those sources, until they have been added and properly integrated. In other words, please don't over-intepret WP:SYNTH. If the article is properly expanded, and a suitable scope and title found, it seems to me that there is every chance that the material involved has a home here on Wikipedia. But the work should be done, so that the position can be assessed. Any novel and tendentious synthesis can be zapped, but you are prematurely assuming that there must be such a proposition. Often it is a plain writing issue, to get round that type of problem. Charles Matthews (talk) 13:44, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Move, Merge and ~~delete~~Redirect (aka merge & redirect with more apt title) I also support a move, merge and ~~delete~~. The way the article is written, including its title, imply there was a serious controversy over this book review. After reading the sources provided and attempting to find more, I feel this article is solely about the negative book review. The one response listed in the article is a 10-page practical guide written by Keisler (the author of the book that was reviewed). But it is no way clear that this guide is a response to Bishop's review. Giving this review the status of controversy has cased it to be listed in the articles Mathematics, Foundations of Mathematics, giving it the illusion of being a major foundational controversy. Thenub314 (talk) 06:26, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment It was pretty famous, for a book review. The article doesn't seem to mention the role of Halmos, who intentionally assigned the review to the constructivist Bishop, basically to provoke controversy. (He had a habit of doing such things - more power to him. :-) ). A merge somewhere might be best, but there might be enough to support an article out there, e.g. in Halmos' autobio.John Z (talk) 09:34, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Keep Non-standard analysis is an important topic of research in mathematics and an article on a discussion as to whether it should be included in the teaching of mathematics is definitely a necessity. This is a very famous controversy with a lot of books on it. Topology Expert (talk) 10:09, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Don't Merge (or keep) (on behalf of Katzmik) I don't agree with the merge as I think such a discussion is premature. If you consult the talk page of the article, you may notice that it is an article in progress. Once the text stabilizes, it may be possible to have a meaningful discussion of the desirability of a merge. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Topology Expert (talk • contribs)

"Keep" is apparently what was meant here, if we judge by Katzmik's comments below. "Don't merge (or keep)" could be taken to mean "don't do either", so the bolded opinion was written quite ambiguously. Michael Hardy (talk) 02:43, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. I put the tag asking for inline citations on the article. I doubt that in the restricted time for an AfD we will get a reasonable result. Personally I tend towards keeping, although merging might make sense as well. It really depends on how well this dispute is covered in the sources, and I don't have the time to read them all. (Formally, "merge and delete" is not a possible result, and forcing a merge with a deletion discussion is a bit unorthodox and should be restricted to really problematic cases, e.g. related to nationalism.) --Hans Adler (talk) 10:21, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. The "dispute", if there was anything beyond a negative book review, does not seem to be covered in any recognized sources. Certainly none of the articles by Tall et al refer to a dispute. They refer to a debate and an "experiment" that was conducted in some universities in the US and at one university in England and describe the subsequent impact on undergraduate teaching in mathematics. However, this does not seem to be what the article is about. At the moment it seems to be an essay on NSA vs constructivism. Mathsci (talk) 12:06, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - Comment Indeed. In addition I don't think there was ever a direct conflict between NSA and constructivism. Bishop made clear in his '75 article that his comments were not about NSA because he did not study it. He was strongly criticizing the way NSA was being taught in calculus courses for encouraging students to perform formal manipulations (in his opinion). Thenub314 (talk) 13:03, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Please stop being obnoxious (applies to User:Thenub314 and User:Mathsci). First of all, ‘merge’ and ‘delete’ are different things. You can’t do both (I learned this the hard way). If you want to delete, then keep a redirect to the article into which it is merged. Don’t delete just for the fun of it (which seems to be what these two editors are doing). This article will expand and it is notable (I have read about this controversy in many places). Stop being obnoxious and refocus on the project. Topology Expert (talk) 10:59, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Request I request an administrator to close this discussion because:

a) This article should not be deleted. Originally these two editors wanted to merge it (and keep a redirect) and now they want to delete. In any case, this article is important enough for at least a redirect to the article into which it is merged.

b) You can’t ‘merge’ and ‘delete’. A merge implies that a redirect must be added but if you delete, this cannot be so.

The discussion should now be restricted to whether this article should be merged or not. Deletion is ridiculous. Topology Expert (talk) 11:06, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I do not intend to be obnoxious. Merge and delete is one of the possibilites mentioned at Wikipedia:Deletion policy as something that can occasionally happen. I feel dubbing this as a controversy leads to confusion and undue weight, which is why I would like the redirect deleted. Other titles might be more appropriate, but I feel the current title is harmful for the reasons stated above. Thenub314 (talk) 11:21, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Request Let's keep the discussion civil. Being called obnoxious comes across as a personal attack. I promise I am not here for fun, nor am I enjoying this, but I feel it should be done. Thenub314 (talk) 11:21, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I am not really convinced that you are 'obnoxious' but from previous experience, User:Mathsci is generally obnoxious about such things (he once put references to his own work on many articles and there was a discussion about this). Anyhow, it is highly unlikely that this article will be deleted as you two are the only ones in support of it. Topology Expert (talk) 11:38, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. Even with a short summary of the teaching of Non-standard anaylsis (it is described in the references I added as having had a weak impact educationally after a small number of experiments), there does not appear to be sufficient material for one article. There will be no loss of knowledge if the content appears in the parent article, which is where most people would look anyway. As other people have written, it is very hard to write about NSA outside the context of the original article, which is another good reason for a merge.Mathsci (talk) 11:56, 14 December 2008 (UTC) No personal attacks please: I have never added references to my own work in any wikipedia article that I have edited - TE might possibly be confusing me with Katzmik. Other mathematics editors, with unquestionable credentials in RL, have added references to my work before I started editing wikipedia.[reply]
Comment Personally attacks anyone are inappropriate. It's not constructive. Let's focus on the issue at hand. I do not feel this particular book review is notable, but I certainly will look at Halmos's autobiography as soon as the library's open. Thenub314 (talk) 12:05, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I did not wish to make personal attacks but the circumstances left me no choice. I remember that there was a dispute between User:Mathsci and User:Arcfrk where User:Arcfrk accused the other user of adding references to his/her page. I would advise User:Mathsci not to deny this when I can provide evidence easily (by asking User:Arcfrk for example). Anyway, it is unlikely that this article will be deleted and currently, the odds are against User:Mathsci and User:Thenub314 because ‘non-deletion’ is more favored (except for them, no one is voting for deletion). Topology Expert (talk) 12:30, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If you are referring to this thread, then please read it, and then remove your absurd accusations and this response. An apology to Mathsci (and one to Katzmik, who perhaps didn't want to be reminded of this once more in a place where it just doesn't belong) might also be a good idea. --Hans Adler (talk) 13:09, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If I remember correctly, Katzmik had nothing to do with the issue. It was only User:Arcfrk and User:Mathsci. I am not bothered enough to actually go and find this thread but User:Arcfrk accused User:Mathsci of referencing his own work (which I believe is against several policies) and several users agreed with these accusations. I think this will 'ring a bell' for User:Arcfrk at least but I can't (and won't) trust User:Mathsci's word.

And my 'accusations' are not absurd: you should calm down, take a deep breath, and perhaps start refocusing on the project as I will do know. I too don't want to remind anybody of that incident (and I regret that I had) but I won't apologize because the incident with User:Mathsci (and again I note that User:Katzmik had nothing to do with it) was real. I won't say anymore about it but if people want to challenge it (which of course they have every right to do), I can personally ask User:Arcfrk and waste my time searching for that thread. Topology Expert (talk) 15:23, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment The other problem with ‘merging and deleting’ is that the history will be lost. So you won’t know who actually created the content which is a problem. Why are you so keen (and excited) to delete this article anyway? The only thing absurd here is this ‘deletion’ and I request an admin to close it before people start losing their heads (figurative language). Topology Expert (talk) 15:59, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Strong keep per WP:SNOW and WP:SK Topology Expert (talk) 15:59, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Education-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 16:15, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merge and delete: Keep the history in a comment on the talk page. Do you really want to know who fixed the typos? You just want to get the gist of who wrote the main stuff. It's just one or two contributers, so say: Bishop-Keisler controversy used to be free standing, and the content is based on contributions of User blah blah and User blah blah who did such and so.Likebox (talk) 16:52, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- There's a much better solution: replace the contents of the page with a redirect, don't delete the page, and leave the talk page and history intact. Going to the redirect page and looking at the history will allow anyone to reconstruct what happened.Likebox (talk) 18:03, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment User Topology Expert keeps attempting to dissuade us from discussing this further because there is (in his opinion) little chance the article will be deleted. But we should at least focus on actually discussing the merits of the article. I have stated the case for why I think a merge and delete is appropriate in this case. The argument that this is very famous and in lots of books is not particularly persuasive without mentioning which books. I care for the only reason anyone cares, like Topology Expert, I would like to improve Wikipedia. Can we simply discuss this rationally instead of trying to get administrators to close the discussion out of hand? Thenub314 (talk) 16:54, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment TE, aside from Mathsci and Thenub314, you are the only one voting (EC: now Likebox also votes to delete), which you have done twice, although Katzmik has given tentative support in absentia. Fully a quarter of the discussion now has been about your rash comments towards other participants, followed by hasty attempts at closure. Other than the personal attacks, you have expressed your strong opinion largely by unsupported assertion and casual dismissal of the opposition. I do not apprehend what events impelled you towards insult, but it doesn't look like anything someone else said. A newcomer to this discussion could be excused for thinking that your comment and request for speedy keep are a desperate attempt to obscure the self-embarrassment you've accomplished, since it is clear that the discussion is not, otherwiwse, done. Maybe you are the one who should calm down. Ryan Reich (talk) 17:01, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merge with Non-standard calculus I have already given three arguments in support of a merge on the article talk page, to which no one -- especially, no one against the merge -- has yet responded. Accordingly, it is hard for me to understand why someone would be passionately against grouping the material of this article with other cognate material, in an article that seems more stable and less likely to be deleted in the future. Plclark (talk) 17:37, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I think that "deletion" is not the right word to describe this process. The article should of course be left as a redirect, as geometryexpert says, in case someone searches for "Bishop Keisler". Perhaps nonstandard calculus could have a "pedagogical debate" section, and if the interesting history of this debate grows so long that it distracts from the topic, then it can be forked off again. But I think a more inclusive title for the fork might be "Pedagogy of non-standard calculus", and then the rest of the people involved can be included. I don't like going through the deletion process, because nobody is arguing that the content should be included in the encyclopedia.Likebox (talk) 18:00, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

<obligatory>No one is disputing it, you mean.</obligatory> Ryan Reich (talk) 18:12, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment As I said above I think leaving a redirect from Bishop-Keisler Controversy is not a great idea, as I said above it seems to lead to the idea that this is one of the major controversies in mathematics, (for example it is linked from the Mathematics page). There is no clear evidence to me there was controversy, which was the reason I suggested to delete. Thenub314 (talk) 18:23, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

- Comment. I want to add 2 further comments about the article. (1) It was originally entitled "Bishop vs Keisler". This was not an encyclopedic title (it sounds more like "rumble in the jungle"), so was changed to the "Bishop-Keisler controversy" by Charles Matthews, without, however, verifying that this was supported by secondary literature (it appears not to be). (2) The secondary literature is by educationalists, following the experiment to teach calculus through NSA. Here is the article by Michèle Artigue cited in the references of BKC, an example of a good secondary source. (The author is professeur at Paris VII.) In this article on the teaching of analysis, Artigue devotes one page to "NSA and its weak impact on education", page 172. Here is a slightly shortened version of what she writes:

1.4 The non-standard analysis revival and its weak impact on education. The publication in 1966 of Robinson's book NSA constituted in some sense a rehabilitation of infinitesimals which had fallen into disrepute [...] [Robinson's proposal] was met with suspicion, even hostility, by many mathematicians [...] Nevertheless, despite the obscurity of this first work, NSA developed rapidly [...] The attempts at simplification were often conducted with the aim of producing an elementary way of teaching NSA. This was the case with the work of Keisler and Henle-Kleinberg [...] [Keisler's work] served as a reference text for a teaching experiment in the first year in university in the Chicago area in 1973-74. Sullivan used 2 questionnaires to evaluate the effects of the course, one for teachers, the other for students. The 11 teachers involved gave a very positive opinion of the experience. The student questionnaire revealed no significant difference in technical performance [...] but showed that those following the NSA course were better able to interpret the sense of the mathematical formalism of calculus [...] The appearance of the 2nd book of Keisler led to a virulent criticism by Bishop, accusing Keisler of seeking [...] to convince students that mathematics is only "an esoteric and meaningless exercise in technique", detached from any reality. These criticisms were in opposition to the declarations of the partisans of NSA who affirmed with great passion its simplicity and intuitive character. [...] However, it is necessary to emphasize the weak impact of NSA on contemporary education. The small number of reported instances of this approach are often accompanied with passionate advocacy, but this rarely rises above the level of personal conviction.

Mathsci (talk) 18:50, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Please. I said that we would drop the matter about Mathsci, but since people do not wish to, I am going to fish through the archives and hopefully people will calm down once I find my fish (just the people who are obnoxious but I am not going to mention who, this maybe an empty set). Anyway, I have already suggested (also what User:Likebox said) that we keep a redirect and merge the article into non-standard calculus. I don't understand why User:Mathsci (not User:Thenub314 anymore, I apologize to him for calling him obnoxious) is hell-bent on deleting the article and is not accepting to reasoning. My reasoning is that: why not keep a redirect and merge (what is the apparent enjoyment that this user gains by deleting this article?)? In this case, this AfD should be closed and a discussion as to whether this article should be merged, should begin. Of course,User:Mathsci is an important contributor to Wikipedia, but the fact that he gets involved in these discussion and does not follow policies (I do not claim I do) leads me to believe that he should stick to contributing his knowledge rather than wasting his time here. Topology Expert (talk) 19:07, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Then perhaps we can rename the article to "Bishop vs. Keisler", and make that page a redirect either to nonstandard calculus or to a free standing page on pedagogy of nonstandard calculus. Seeing that this is very notable in the mathematics education community, from the quoted source above, perhaps there should be a free standing article on NSC pedagogy.Likebox (talk) 18:59, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'd lean toward KEEPing this article. Consider:

In the community of mathematicians there seems to be some folklore surrounding this episode. As someone said above, "pretty famous, for a book review".
Errett Bishop was a major figure among those taking a certain minority position in philosophical foundations of mathematics. He would be a notable mathematician even if that were not the case, but he wrote a detailed book showing how to rewrite the principles of mathematical analysis from the constructivist point of view.
Jerome Keisler may be the only person to bring Abraham Robinson's non-standard analysis down to the freshman level, and his textbook doing that is what this is about. I think it is deplorable that infinitesimals were banished from the freshman calculus curriculum. I don't necessarily think that means one should follow Robinson's approach with most undergraduates learning calculus for the first time, since I don't think logical rigor fits very well with non-math majors (e.g., I wonder why the mean value theorem should be included at all, since its actual role can only remain quite obscure given the way the first-year calculus course is usually done).

I think the main difficulty at this point would be in documenting my "folklore" statement above. Michael Hardy (talk) 19:24, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I have a few things to say about the User:Mathsci issue. For a start, Hans' link was the correct one but I did not think it was so I did not look at it. Sorry for that. Second of all, after re-reading that, I see that it was not User:Mathsci who was referencing his work so again I am sorry for not remembering correctly (and making false accusations). However, the actions of User:Mathsci there were not appropriate (in particular those insults) and were obnoxious (in my opinion). I won't say anymore since that issue is irrelevant to this discussion. Topology Expert (talk) 19:27, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Score so far: 3 Keeps and 2 Deletes. Every other vote is merge and redirect. Since this is an AfD discussion, this AfD should first be closed and then there should be a discussion as to whether this article should be merged or not. I encourage User:Mathsci to read WP:SNOW. Topology Expert (talk) 19:30, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This discussion is not a vote, it's an attempt to get everybody's opinion and come to consensus. If it were a vote, you could lump all the "merges" with either keep or delete, creating a voting paradox. I think this article should be kept only as a redirect, because it prevents a real article on NSC pedagogy to be written. Bishop's book review constitutes a pretty sorry attack on NSC, it is mostly attacking the book itself. The surrounding issues need to be brought out, and that's not going to happen when the article is so narrow in scope.Likebox (talk) 19:39, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I can well believe the folklore statement about Halmos deliberately choosing Bishop as reviewer, but I think it is unlikely to have got into print (I searched for it a little because it would be extremely amusing if he had in fact put it into print). He was also slightly allergic to topological K-theory, at least if it was used to prove results in single operator theory :) Mathsci (talk) 20:16, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In connection with one of Michael Hardy's other points, there is also Henle and Kleinberg, referred to by Artigue (see above). It was reprinted by Dover. On mathscinet the reviewer described it as "charming". Mathsci (talk) 20:27, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment (On TE's post) I feel I should point out that many people on both sides have not chimmed in yet. Very notably Katzmik (who is in favor of keeping the article) has not have a chance to contribute, nor has Dominus who (judging form the talk page) had some concerns about the article. And there may be many others. I don't see any reason to close the discussion early. As others on both sides may point out to you, this is not case of counting votes. We should listen to arguments and do what is best, which hopefully will be clear after we have discussed it a bit. In such a situation a better argument should carry more weight. Thenub314 (talk) 21:37, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. I have corresponded with TE and have, it seems, gotten him to agree to stop negatively participating in this discussion. There is no hurry and plenty of people yet to hear from. In particular I hope that TE's comment "on behalf of Katzmik" will be replaced by an actual comment by Katzmik, who has contributed the most content to this article. Plclark (talk) 22:29, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Per WP:NOT - this is simply an unnotable and unencyclopedic topic. Eusebeus (talk) 23:15, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Weak delete. I find the evidence of notability unconvincing and largely based on primary sources. While a brief mention of this may have a place in a survey article on NSA, it is simply not notable enough for an article of its own. The only independent source listed in the references section of the article, "Advanced Mathematical Thinking", only mentions this purported "controversy" in passing, and in a way that does not seem to establish notability for an encyclopedia article. siℓℓy rabbit (talk) 01:48, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Merge, leaving a redirect. I agree entirely with Geometry guy's assessment below, and have changed my vote accordingly. Let me also comment to the closing admin that it does not establish notability of a controversy that Alice writes a book and Bob writes a critical review of that book. This material is fine if situated in an article in the appropriate context. For now, that context appears to be the Nonstandard analysis article, which already has a section into which the material could easily be merged. In the future, an article on Nonstandard analysis in education could be forked off (there is certainly enough notable material). But today is not that day. siℓℓy rabbit (talk) 19:04, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. I feel that this AfD discussion was started prematurely. There is simply not enough information available to make a good decision about this article. For me, the decision hinges on whether there really was a significant controversy in 1977, or whether, as some claim, the article is merely Katzmik's personal essay about a single book review. This is a question of fact, and right now the facts are unavailable. More discovery is needed.

(continued) If there really was a controversy worthy of the name, then one would expect to be able to find evidence of that, in the form of multiple contemporary and later discussions of the controversy in third-party sources. So far, not one source has been produced to support the argument that this was a notable controversy. But it is not clear that anyone has tried to produce one. I think the burden of proof here is on the people who want to keep the article, but I also think they deserve a chance to meet that burden.

Michael Hardy mentions that this is part of the mathematical folklore. Fine, but that does not satisfy the WP:V policies. If this affair was truly of historical importance, it ought to be possible for an interested reader to follow it up in the literature. But the article at present gives one no way to do that.

Comment. Michael Hardy has provided some references below. I had seen some of these before, and I think they illustrate my point: someone trying to follow up the matter would learn little from these sources other than that Bishop wrote a negative review of Keisler's book. The matter is mentioned briefly and in passing. If there was more to the matter than that, these sources do not hint at it, and better sources should be found. If not, then I think the topic fails to meet the notability standard. —Dominus (talk) 19:59, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest that the AfD be closed immediately with no decision and without prejudice, and that the interested parties be given time to establish notability. If they fail to do that, then an AfD is in order. -- —Dominus 04:47, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Having scoured the literature for some time now, there seems to have been no evidence of a controversy. Katzmik has had over six weeks to provide secondary sources concerning this, since being asked on November 1st [18], and that is a reasonable period of time. What does appear to be the case is that the book was part of an experiment to see whether it was possible to use NSA in the teaching of calculus. This was tried elsewhere with different books and was analysed and debated by academics in mathematics education. It is easy to find secondary sources about this, like the one above. The particular teaching experiment with Keisler's book was analysed at the time by Sullivan; there was also an experiment at the University of Essex. The book review was written while these experiments were being conducted. However, the notoriety of this negative book review, which is undisputed, does not merit a separate article. As for mathematical folklore, like many others I know that the science author Gary Taubes and the mathematician Cliff Taubes are brothers, but this does not appear to be recorded officially, so it cannot be added either to their BLPs or on the Taubes disambiguation page. Mathsci (talk) 08:02, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

References in the literature:

Advanced Mathematical Thinking by David Orme Tall, D. Tall, page 172:

The appearance of the second book by Keisler (1976) led to a virulent criticism by Bishop (1977) in the Bulletin of the American Mathematical Society, accusing Keisler of seeking the goal of modern mathematicians: to convince students that mathematics is only "an esoteric and meaningless exercise in technique", detached from any reality. These criticisms were in opposition do the delarations of the partisans of non-standard analysis who affirmed with great passion its simplicity and intuitive character.

"A nonstandard proof of a lemma from constructive measure theory", by David A. Ross Mathematical Logic Quarterly, volume 52, number 5, pages 494–497, (2006):

To some constructivists nonstandard analysis represents the worst extreme of nonconstructive (i.e. classical) mathematics; see, e.g. Bishop's review [2] of Keisler's calculus text.

"Intuitive infinitesimals in the calculus", by David Tall:

Meanwhile, Bishop [1] fiercely criticised Keisler’s text for adopting an axiomatic approach when it is not clear to the reader that a system exists which satisfies the given axioms. Although Bishop’s review adopts an extreme viewpoint, the benefits reported by Sullivan have failed to convince the vast majority of mathematicians to switch to infinitesimal techniques.

"The Burgess-Rosen critique of nominalistic reconstructions", by Charles Chihara, Philosophia Mathematica 2007 15(1):54–78.

... development of the calculus within the framework of nonstandard analysis. For example, Errett Bishop, in his review of H. Jerome Keisler's Elementary Calculus ...

(I haven't been able to get the whole quote on this one yet.)

"Natural and Formal Infinities", by David Tall:

Criticism of the use of the axiom of choice in the non-standard approach however, draws extreme criticism from those such as Bishop (1977) who insisted on explicit construction of concepts in the intuitionist tradition[.....]Bishop, E., 1977: "Review of ‘Elementary Calculus’ by H. J. Keisler", Bulletin of the American Mathematical Society, 83, 2, 205–208.

Michael Hardy (talk) 06:32, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

*keep. Wikipedia aught to be allowed to reflect the true stature and influence of Robinson's theory in the real world, as exemplified by the whopping 974 cites of "Non-standard analysis" at Google Scholar (for the sake of comparison, note that Mikhail Gromov's wildly successful "Hyperbolic groups" lags behind at 965 cites). Robinson's theory has certainly had its detractors and sceptics; indeed, it is the purpose of the page under discussion to reflect one such dissent. The page could be expanded to reflect Halmos' sceptical reception of the proof of his conjecture by Robinson. Katzmik (talk) 10:40, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. This article is about a book review, not about Halmos' views on Robinson's NSA proof that every operator on a Hilbert space with compact square has an invariant subspace. What is the relevance to this article, apart from the circumstantial evidence that Halmos was Bishop's Ph.D. supervisor and was in charge of book reviews at the Bulletin of the American Mathematical Society at the time? Please provide secondary sources that describe a controversy between Bishop and Keisler, rather than continuing to produce WP:SYNTH, WP:OR based on mathematical hearsay. Perhaps you had in mind an article entitled Reactions to non-standard analysis. Mathsci (talk) 11:10, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Circumstantial evidence that Halmos was Bishop's Ph.D. supervisor"? Geeez, doesn't Halmos say that explicitly in his autobiography? And doesn't it say so explicitly here? With the genealogy project, how can anyone speak in such terms? And how can there be doubts about whether Halmos was or was not in charge of book reviews in that journal at that time? Can't you just look it up? Michael Hardy (talk) 07:24, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think what Mathsci meant is: the fact that Halmos was not a supporter of non-standard analysis, and he was Bishop's thesis adviser is weak circumstantial evidence that Halmos is connected to the subject of this article. As you say, it is easy to verify the fact that Halmos was the supervisor of Bishop. His objection I think might be summed up by the question: Why a page titled "Bishop-Keisler controversy" should talk about "Halmos' sceptical reception of the proof of his conjecture by Robinson"? Thenub314 (talk) 09:55, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - topic is not sufficiently notable to merit its own article. Gandalf61 (talk) 11:21, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Science-related deletion discussions. -- the wub "?!" 12:57, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to me that the main goal of this article is to discuss a certain criticism of nonstandard analysis. So I think this material should be merged into nonstandard analysis. We generally put criticism sections directly into the main article, unless they become so long that they have to be split off. But that would mean an article on criticism of nonstandard analysis, not an article about this particular book review (this seems to agree with what Katzmik and Mathsci say above about expanding the article to include other criticism). Overall, I favor "merge the content, save the edit history, delete the redirect" — Carl (CBM · talk) 13:14, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Seeing that numerous editors object to the word "controversy" in the title, perhaps the page could be renamed "Bishop-Keisler incident". This would retain the name of the two protagonists and therefore give a good indication of the contents of the page (as noted several times in this space, the incident can be described as "famous"). Additional material can be added here without any serious contradiction; the reader readily recognizes that the page deals with powerful philosophical objections to NSA, even without replacing the title with a bland "criticisms of NSA". Katzmik (talk) 16:00, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I still don't get it. A textbook received a negative peer review. It happens in academia every day. What makes it famous? IMO the Galileo affair is famous, but not this incident. If, indeed, there was something important behind the case, the article fails to present it. NVO (talk) 22:50, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- (I agree with name change/keep history but I like redirect to NSC or criticism of NSC) The point of the "criticism of nonstandard calculus" idea is that Bishop's article is not very good as a representative of criticisms of NSA. His book review is just a touchstone for people who want to talk about less well documented clashes over the topic. These clashes came from many sources, with different points of view, and I believe they should be discussed together in one comprehensive article, without singling out Bishop. Bishop's review is most notable in the larger context of criticism of NSA.Likebox (talk) 16:41, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - If it is a touchstone and if there are "many such sources", as you mention, why shouldn't there be a separate page on this? Katzmik (talk) 17:08, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    - Comment One could equally well ask why should there be a separate article on Bishop's book review (I assume that is what Katzmik means by this). This question by itself is not so helpful. I think the reasons for the merge and delete because of notablility concerns, which would be solved by putting this in a broader context, and we certainly could add a redirect from Bishop-Keisler (review, incident, exchange?, or something more appropriate then controversy). So people searching for it specifically could find it. I think Criticisms of NSA (while maybe bland) is neutral, clear, and effective at communicating what the article would be about. Potentially the article could expand to give a much better picture of exactly the difficult reception that NSA has had to deal with. Thenub314 (talk) 18:53, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merge, leaving a redirect. I don't see sufficient secondary source material for an article, but the issue is notable enough for a redirect to a broader discussion which includes the primary source material cited here. Geometry guy 23:07, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect and merge as per Geometry Guy. Many thanks to Michael Hardy for posting those quotations above. It looks like this incident isn't notable enough for an article of its own, but does deserve a mention in a discussion of non-standard analysis. Ozob (talk) 00:59, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
A comment in response to mathsci: Your remarks above allege WP:SYNTH and WP:OR violations on my part. On the contrary, I fully support the guidelines contained in WP:SYNTH, and all the more so WP:OR. On the other hand, I feel that it is germane to the current discussion that Non-standard analysis is a legitimate viewpoint of a significant minority. This fact is reflected in what I described poetically as the whopping 974 cites at Google Scholar. I am aware of the opinion of certain wikieditors who believe NSA to be marginal. Such a viewpoint is heard in tearoom conversations in pure math departments with no hyperreal presence. Wikieditors should be aware of the fact that, with all due respect to Halmos, the "marginality" slur is merely a debatable viewpoint. As far as secondary sources are concerned, there is no shortage of them as we saw above; at least one secondary source, added to the article by Charles, has been removed (twice) by one of the editors who initiated this AfD. Katzmik (talk) 13:02, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. One of the two editors involved is continuing his hostile edits at Bishop-Keisler controversy, I would appreciate administative input. Katzmik (talk) 13:10, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Note: I have by now revised the lead paragraph in such a way that it is clear that the Bishop-Keisler episode is the touchstone that sparked an important controversy (rather than the controversy itself), so on the whole I think the title can be left in its current form without change. Katzmik (talk) 14:04, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I disagree. I don't find the current title very encyclopedic, and I don't think it is nearly as good as Criticism of nonstandard analysis if that is actually the topic of the page. However, there is not enough material there to justify a separate criticism article - it could just be merged into the main article on nonstandard analysis. — Carl (CBM · talk) 14:22, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: On the talk page of the article, the nominating editor is indicting me not just for being completely unencyclopedic, but no fewer than on WP:NPOV, WP:RS, WP:V, WP:OR, WP:SYNTH. Could someone please comment? Katzmik (talk) 14:29, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Remark. What you write above is inaccurate. It concerns one of your latest edits, which was exceptionally poorly written and totally unsourced. The main issue remains that you seem completely unconcerned with providing secondary sources. Have you made any attempt at all to find secondary sources? Mathsci (talk) 21:38, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
one adverse review of an out-of-print textbook? The original AfD submission describes the page in an unflattering fashion. I feel the page deals with an important meta-mathematical issue that transcends the boldfaced description. The term "meta-mathematical" has been recently defined on the talk page as applying mathematical methods to understanding of mathematics itself. Now Robinson brought tools of modern logic to bear on the foundations of analysis. Bishop objects to NSA, certainly on constructivist grounds (there have been claims on the talk page that my claim is unsubstantiated, I would like to get some input from fellow editors). In this sense this controversy can be viewed as meta-mathematical as per the above definition. Now it is possible that professional philosophers of mathematics would object to using the term "metamathematics" in reference to this debate, but I think we should defend our right to use the term in its lay meaning. I would like to get some input from fellow editors on this point, as well. Katzmik (talk) 05:44, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Additional secondary source. An editor recently requested an additional secondary source on this controversy. P. R. Halmos writes in "Invariant subspaces", Amer Math Monthly 85 ('78) 182-183 as follows:

the extension to polynomially compact operators was obtained by Bernstein and Robinson (1966). They presented their result in the metamathematical [emphasis added--MK] language called non-standard analysis, but, as it wasa realized very soon, that was a matter of personal preference, not necessity. Katzmik (talk) 05:56, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment How is this an additional source? It mentions neither Bishop nor Keisler, nor is it about the teaching of non-standard calculus. Thenub314 (talk) 09:40, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment By some mistake I don't understand, I accidentally deleted a comment of Micheal Hardy in this edit. I would like to call attention to it, and apologize. He is an excellent editor whose opinion I value and I will do my best to be more careful in the future. Thenub314 (talk) 07:53, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Section break

Criticism of nonstandard analysis One of the key administrators above has committed himself to a position that such an alternative title is much better than the current one. I don't see much explicit support at this page for retaining the current title. The new title does have the advantage of being broader, so that one can include Connes' criticism as well as Halmos' scepticism (documented above). At any rate, even if the original title is ultimately reinstated, it is worth retaining the "criticism" title as a re-direct as it is certainly a valid possibility. I hereby modify my position in support of the new title. Katzmik (talk) 09:44, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Now my opinion is Keep and Delete. I like the place of the new article much better, the history has been preserved, so everything works with GFDL, but I am still in favor of deleting the redirect from Bishop–Keisler controversy for my initially stated reasons. Thenub314 (talk) 09:59, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
epsilon, delta The current version of the article contains a direct quote from Bishop concerning the epsilon, delta definition of limit. I would like to add the following material to elaborate on this comment on Bishop's (note that my proposal here differs significantly from earlier versions that were criticized on the talkpage). I would like to present two definitions for the benefit of a reader not familiar with technical aspects of infinitesimal calculus: the standard one that Bishop refers to, as well as the infinitesimal one contained in Keisler's book. Then I would like to point out that according to the secondary source Davis, Bishop's opposition to infinitesimals stems from his constructivism. Furthermore, I would like to add that Keisler claims in his book that the two definitions are equivalent. The boldfaced material is my attempt to avoid issues of OR and POV that seem to have bothered editors earlier. Please comment. Katzmik (talk) 09:58, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I think this is a discussion better suited to the talk page, but here goes. I difficulty I had with presenting two definitions and stating their equivalent is that it seems to try to make a point Bishop is incorrect or he misunderstood. The quote which you want to relate this to is one where he says mathematics (including the delta epsilon definition of limit) are common sense. I don't think "Kiesler claims" is a necessary clause, it is just not clear what equivalence has to do with anything. Bishop (and this is synthesis on my part) presumably felt that one definition was common sense, while the other definition was not. He never mentions equivalence. It seems out of place to bring it up. Thenub314 (talk) 10:15, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment 2Davis doesn't say that Bishop's opposition to infinitesimals stems from his constructivism. I believe your referring to the quote "[Bishop] objects to Keisler's description of the real numbers as a convenient fiction (without informing his readers of the constructivist context in which this objection is presumably to be understood)." He is speaking about a specific objection in Bishop's review. Thenub314 (talk) 10:27, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Controversy Contrary to the title, I do see support on this page for a sentence that has now been deleted in the current version: "A review by Errett Bishop of a textbook on nonstandard calculus by H. Jerome Keisler served as the touchstone for a debate among mathematicians in the 20th century concerning the role of nonstandard analysis in mathematics." I would like to reinstate the sentence if there is support for such a move in this space. Katzmik (talk) 10:05, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- As per Thenub's comment: I am neither claiming that the two definitions are equivalent, as I was careful to point out, nor that Bishop is incorrect. In fact, I think Bishop is correct. From the constructivist viewpoint, not only are the two definitions not equivalent, but in fact the infinitesimal one does not make any sense (AC, etc). I hasten to add that I do think think the last sentence should go into the article, merely that Bishop is correct but from Keisler's foundational viewpoint (as well as the standard foundational viewpoint), the two definitions are equivalent. Katzmik (talk) 10:23, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - I am still unclear why we are bringing it up? Thenub314 (talk) 10:38, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Remark. The new form of the article is no better and perhaps even more problematic, even though the new material was lifted from the NSA article. Connes has expressed himself at length about NSA on his blog (I believe I'm some kind of superuser there). He makes it clear there that it's not a polemic and that he is not interested in controversy. The last time I saw him he was a living person, so we should be careful not to misrepresent him. He used McDuff's ultraproduct construction in his classification of injective factors, for which he was awarded his Fields medal. He developed the Dixmier trace as a uniform method for explaining the residue of Guillemin and Wodjicki for pseudodifferential operators. As far as I remember it can be constructed using invariant means on an ax+b group. It applies to operators which just fail to be trace class usually because of a log term in the partial sum of eigenvalues; for specific classes of operators it can be constructed effectively. It's not clear that it has anything at all to do with NSA. Mathsci (talk) 11:22, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Misleading I believe mathsci's comment above is misleading. Connes expressed himself on the subject of NSA not just on his blogpage, but in print, and repeatedly. I understand he did so in the Bourbaki from 96, though I have not seen this yet. Saying that Connes criticized NSA is not the same as saying that he is interested in a polemic. Katzmik (talk) 14:10, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Axiom of Choice: The point of mentioning the ultraproduct stuff is that it also involves choice. Connes NSA criticisms are about overreliance on choice, and here is Connes using choice. It seems that both NSA and this operator business you're talking about can both be given a reasonably effective description, so the parallel is not inappropriate.Likebox (talk) 14:41, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
mathsci's contribution I find your contributing to the article by developing the reference section, very helpful. It is all the more puzzling that you have chosen to devote so much energy to this unwise AfD attempt. When an editor resorts to slurs of lifting from other articles, it is a sure sign that he has run out of good arguments. I see a reasonable consensus on this page in favor of keeping the article under the new name. I would greatly appreciate it if an administrator could close this discussion with a "keep under new name", as this somewhat unnecessary controversy about a controversy has taken a toll on everyone's time. Katzmik (talk) 15:59, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment As per my original comments, I think we should delete the redirect. Was mathsci accusing of lifting? I interperated his comments to mean "I have a problem with this, even though it came from some other article." I think we all agree that we may borrow material form other articles as necessary. Having now gone and read some of the posts on Connes blogs he doesn't come across as a critic of NSA. He has comments like "I don't want controversy" and "I fell in love with NSA." Could we be taking his quote out of context? Do we have a secondary source that talks about his critique? Thenub314 (talk) 16:14, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Although not under the name Keisler-Bishop controversy. Nonstandard analysis is the subject of enough criticism that a separate article is justified.--CSTAR (talk) 17:19, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
autobiography: John Z made the following comment above: "there might be enough to support an article out there, e.g. in Halmos' autobio". The current version of the article contains a section on Halmos' scepticism. If you are aware of relevant material related to NSA, please expand the section. Katzmik (talk) 18:27, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

To belatedly answer, and with the title change somewhat irrelevantly, I am quite sure that Halmos did somewhere write that he deliberately chose Bishop in order to create a tempest in a teacup, but thousands of miles from my books and files, I can't be of much help tracking it down. IIRC he wrote he had been criticized for making this selection but said it was intentional and he did it in other cases, that philosophically opposed reviewers would be likely to produce thought-provoking reviews, essentially, that there is no light without heat.John Z (talk) 05:30, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. With the page move and the generally shifting sand, this AfD is rapidly turning into a waste of editors' time and should probably be closed. However, I stand by my view that a separate article should not exist without reliable secondary sources. Who discusses the significance of Bishop's review? Who says Halmos is sceptical of NSA? Who says Connes is a noted critic? Without attributing these assertions to secondary sources, the article engages in original research by synthesis. The only source that comes close to being secondary is Davis, but the article deploys it as a primary source instead. Geometry guy 18:38, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. I think you are being too demanding of an article under construction by demanding perfection. Who discusses it? Michael provided a series of secondary references. Who says Halmos is sceptical? Halmos himself, when he describes Robinson's NSA proof of the famous conjecture as "a matter of personal taste" (not that I think there will not be an abundance of additional sources). Who says Connes is a noted critic? You must be kidding. If you get a chance please respond to my query about the two definitions, but be lenient if you can :) Katzmik (talk) 18:53, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  These references all consist of one sentence. They support the assertion that the review generated controversy and little more. They provide no analysis of the review. Halmos is not a secondary source for his own scepticism: we cannot assert that "a matter of personal taste" amounts to scepticism unless we can attribute that statement. I regard the use of nonstandard analysis as a matter of personal taste, but I'm not sceptical of it, despite generally agreeing with Connes position on the axiom of choice and non-measurable sets. If Connes is a noted critic, then someone must have noted he is a critic. That someone should be cited. Suppose we cut all of the analysis in this article for which reliable secondary sources are not provided. There would, essentially, be nothing left. I'm not asking for you to cite every statement right now. I'm simply asking for evidence that secondary sources actually exist to support an article on this topic. Geometry guy 19:36, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

References in the academic literature do not have to be long to be significant. They are coded calls for attention--- they say "I belong to this side" or at least "here's a notable reference for this side". Each one provides great evidence of notability, academics don't cite frivolously--- they cite when they feel they must acknowledge another's contribution.Likebox (talk) 20:11, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Coded", according to whom?

I feel somewhat misunderstood, and I think Katzmik does too! Of course those references are significant, but they support a one line article: "Bishop's review of Keisler's book was critical and contributed to a controversy about nonstandard analysis and the teaching of it". I want to see a case that there are sources which allow us, at Wikipedia, to say more. We don't engage in analysis here. We can't interpret or speculate. Where are the sources we can cite to write an article on this topic? Geometry guy 21:24, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry for misinterpreting. What I meant to say is--- it's bad form to repeat arguments--- if you want to acknowledge something, you cite it. When there's enough cites, you can use the original as sole reference for the argument contained in it, and also as a basis for notability for what people use it for. The word "coded" was a bad choice on my part, it should be "by universal unspoken agreement". There's nothing secret about it.Likebox (talk) 21:59, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep as Criticism of nonstandard analysis (edit: or Impact of nonstandard mathematics) per CSTAR. CRGreathouse (t | c) 19:39, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Suggestion. I think that a better title might be Impact of non-standard analysis. It is more positive - certainly a lot of physicists have tried to use it - also it would make the discussion of the teaching experiments fit in better. I think Katzmik could have done a better job of cutting and pasting my typed out version (yes, that's what I did!) of Artigue's article. Mathsci (talk) 21:15, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent suggestion. In addition to physicists, economists have used it to model markets with large numbers of consumers. --CSTAR (talk) 04:43, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Impact: The idea of an article on the impact of NSA is an excellent one. It certainly goes in the direction of my remark above concerning the 974 Google Scholar cites. However, I think we are talking about a different article here. As far as impact is concerned, I would be very interested to read such an article if anyone has a patience to go through the 974 and write some sort of a synthesis. Katzmik (talk) 07:48, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Primary versus secondary as per Geometry G's comment: there is a bit of a problem with infinite regression here, to the extent that every secondary source becomes a primary one once a third source comes in and comments on it. The main primary material here is NSA. I would argue that Connes himself can be viewed as a secondary source, particularly since Abraham Robinson was no longer around when Connes came in. Katzmik (talk) 07:53, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oh my, you seem to have no understanding of what a secondary source is. Sources can be both primary and secondary, depending on how they are used. Bishop's review can be used as a secondary source for facts about Keisler's book and NSA. Connes can be used as a secondary source for Bishop's opinions. However, neither Bishop nor Connes are secondary sources for their own opinions. If you can't get that straight, there is no hope for this article. Geometry guy 12:13, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

User mathsci who nominated this page for deletion has now unilaterally moved the page to a title that has not been agreed upon. I ask for administrative assistance in restoring order. Katzmik (talk) 07:59, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is noted that "Moving the article while it is being discussed can produce confusion", at Wikipedia:Guide to deletion. It goes on to say that "If you do this, please note it on the AfD page, preferably both at the top of the discussion (for new participants) and as a new comment at the bottom (for the benefit of the closing admin)." I believe that the title may be an improvement; but it would of course have been better to discuss the scope and title before bringing a deletion proposal, and much better if Mathsci had followed the indicated guideline. Confusion certainly has resulted. Further, the creation of a POV fork under a "criticism of" title is a retrograde step here, from a "controversy" title. Therefore an "impact" title would be better.

The solution here is surely for the nominator to withdraw the nomination in the light of discussion, and debate to adjourn to the talk page of the article. Charles Matthews (talk) 08:06, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Ahem, Katzmik has already changed the title himself during this AfD, without consensus, so these remarks are best addressed to Katzmik. Katzmik might indeed be exercising WP:OWN. His copy-pasting of my hand-typed transcript of Artigue's article (including my abbreviations and possible errors) seems like lazy editing. Returning to the quote from Connes, perhaps people should look at the original article. The remark prefaces an explanation of how the classical integral can be quantized using Connes' own version of "infinitesimal", part of his theory of noncommutative geometry. He makes a passing reference to nonstandard analysis. Connes made it quite clear in his subsequent blog that his remarks on NSA were not polemic or designed to be controversial. The original content was written in 2004 before the blog came into existence. Given Connes' own subsequent clarifiaction, continuing to use these remarks out of context in an article on controversy/criticism seems to be a violation of BLP. Mathsci (talk) 09:21, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal I am very happy that Charles likes the suggestion for a broad article on Impact of non-standard analysis, including its impact in mathematics, theoretical physics, economics and teaching. Criticisms should be included, provided they are not plucked out of context. If Katzmik could agree to such an article, which would need carefully written and properly sourced encyclopedic sections on education and applications in mathematical physics - rather than editorialising commentaries on logic and analysis - then it would be quite appropriate to bring this AfD to a close, as this seems to be the consensus of all these discussions. If Katzmik (and others of course) can agree to the new title and proposed enlarged encyclopedic content, then this AfD will have served its purpose. If we can have a useful encyclopedia article instead of an irritating OpEd, that would be great. Mathsci (talk) 09:52, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately Katzmik does appear to be exercising WP:OWN, by only allowing his own edits. He has restored all of the irrelevant content on noncommutative geometry and the BLP violations. I hope that he will reverse these edits and please respond positively to my proposal; otherwise we'll be back to square one. Mathsci (talk) 10:25, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Impact of nonstandard mathematics seems like a fine title to me. I would be happy to help edit such an article. Thenub314 (talk) 10:26, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Since I have never visited or edited Noncommutative geometry, I consider the above allegation by user:mathsci as yet another violation of the guidelines at WP:SLUR. As far as the current title Criticism of nonstandard analysis is concerned, there was wide support on this page for the change and no objections were voiced after the change was made. Katzmik (talk) 13:35, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think mathsci is not suggesting you edited Noncommutative geometry, but rather you put the information from Connes (which was about Noncommutative geometry back into the articles on Nonstandard analysis and the article we are currently discussing, what ever its current title, I have lost track. Even if I didn't object (I saw it as an improvement over what we had) doesn't mean I don't like the new suggestion much better. And there seems to be a bit of a consensus supporting the Impact of nonstandard mathematics. I made no specific commentary on an exact title before Katzmik moved it the first time. Thenub314 (talk) 14:40, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What happened was that User:Mathsci carried out radical deletions at an established page non-standard analysis. This material has been worked on by numerous editors over the years, including myself. Radical deletions here were inappropriate. I therefore reverted the deletions, explaining my reasons in the edit summary. As the superuser at Connes' page, it may be inappropriate and a conflict of interests for user:mathsci to carry out deletions of material related to Connes. Katzmik (talk) 16:10, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete? Sigh It seems that a page title Impact of nonstandard mathematics treads painfully close to the newly created page Influence_of_non-standard_analysis. So shall we delete the old one and keep the new one? Thenub314 (talk) 14:32, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I would oppose an AfD attack against Influence_of_non-standard_analysis as I opposed the current unwise AfD. Katzmik (talk) 16:12, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - Katzmik, please stop gaming the system in this way. It is a very ill-advised thing to do. At present you are being uncooperative by creating new articles to prove a point. This seems highly disruptive. I won't bother asking why you have duplicated sections in the new article that you also recently introduced into the article of this AfD. You have not been taking any notice of what other editors have been writing, including Charles Matthews. Please calm down. As for being a superuser on Connes' blog, I have never used the account: the creation of the account was suggested by Alain at his 60th birthday conference where I was one of the invited speakers. I suggest that it might be an idea to drop your current line of argument as I can't see it leading anywhere. I know quite a lot of Feilds medallists in RL, which is probably true for lots of mathematicians. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 16:59, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    - Contrary to the WP:SLUR above, I did not duplicated sections in the new article. Rather, your colleague user:thenub duplicated it. You're welcome. Katzmik (talk) 18:39, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I hadn't realised the duplicated material was added by someone else. The stub [19] you created was unencyclopedic with no relevant inline citations for the main text (Nelson, economists). The suggestion of Charles Matthews for an expanded article with a new title was excellent. Perhaps you could explain why you have apparently rejected it? I took it to be a very insightful and sage way of ending this AfD. Why did you disregard it? Mathsci (talk) 22:03, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

New sweeping deletions by user:thenub

A section of criticism of nonstandard analysis was just deleted by user:thenub. I find these continued antics by both user:mathsci and user:thenub increasingly tedious, and hereby request administrative help. Katzmik (talk) 16:16, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Could you be more specific about what you think an administrator should do? As an admin, the only thing I would suggest is that participants tone down the occasional personal characterization (for instance a "you don't understand" upstairs somewhere). Aside from that the discussion seems to be in good faith in my opinion. As far as shutting down this AfD, I don't see a clear consensus as to what should be done. Am I missing something? Anyway a non-participating admin should do this.--CSTAR (talk) 16:39, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Just like to point out that this is all way off-topic for an AfD page. Content issues should be discussed (civilly, of course) at the article's talk page; requests for admin intervention should be taken to WP:AN/EW, WP:ANI or similar noticeboard if appropriate. FWIW, this AfD now seems to be FUBAR, and should probably be closed. Gandalf61 (talk) 16:37, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Could people please comment on the change of title suggested by Charles Matthews (Impact of non-standard analysis)? That seems the best way forward. Mathsci (talk) 17:02, 18 December 2008 (UTC) I see that Katzmik has already created the unhyphenated title as a redirect.[reply]

It seems slightly less general than impact of non-standard mathematics you suggested above, but maybe more useful. I suppose non-standard mathematics could be (potentially) construed as mathematics which deviates from normal practice. But I really am indifferent to one or the other.--CSTAR (talk) 17:57, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In my haste I made a slip, but it's quite unimportant. Either one is fine by me :)Mathsci (talk) 22:28, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As I said I like the title and support the change. Thenub314 (talk) 18:15, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There is already an article Influence of non-standard analysis which is more precise than "impact" (we are not talking about car crashes here, nor about K-T boundary). As far as the deletions at Criticism of nonstandard analysis, these should be discussed on the talkpage. A case can be made that education-related material belongs at "Influence", but a case can also be made that education-related material belongs at "Criticism" if it contains an element of criticism. I was hoping an administrator would remind editors that drastic deletions should be discussed at the talkpage first. Katzmik (talk) 18:34, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Non-standard mathematics" is too vague and may cause confusion. There is a wiki page on non-standard decimals which has nothing to do with NSA. Katzmik (talk) 18:36, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Deletion of Connes' critique

The nominating users have deleted Connes' critique from the article under discussion. I don't see how an article entitled "Criticism of nonstandard analysis" can fail to mention Connes. mathsci and thenub, what is going on? Katzmik (talk) 18:51, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I did not delete the quote from Connes from the article. Please provide the diff. In answer to your questions:

(1) Connes is not a critic of NSA, as he has publicly stated since the original content was added to WP in 2004. In the light of these intervening public statements, it is a BLP violation to suggest otherwise.

(2) Connes' use of the Dixmier trace in noncommutative geometry has nothing to do with nonstandard analysis.

(3) The quote from Connes' paper was taken out of its original context, where it was a parenthetic side remark, prefacing a description of Connes' own work.

If you need fuller technical explanations of any of these points, I will be happy to provide them by email. Mathsci (talk) 22:17, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please do, but this should be discussed before you try to impose your viewpoint on the article. Katzmik (talk) 08:37, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Criticism of nonstandard calculus is different than criticism of nonstandard analysis. This article is about pedagogy, not about mathematics. Connes critique is mathematics. The Bishop-Keisler debate is pedagogy. This is reflected in their sources and cites.Likebox (talk) 00:40, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, such finetuning can be ironed out on the talk page of the article itself. I feel that a strong case can be made that both Connes' and Bishop's criticisms are appropriate at this page. It is true that Bishop's criticism has a component in pedagogy. However, secondary sources noted by Hardy clearly point out that the source of Bishop's opposition is his rejection of the axiom of choice due to his constructivist foundational outlook. This is principled opposition to NSA and not just NSC. Now Thenub disagrees with the contention that Bishop rejects AC. This may or may not be true, but his personal opinion is irrelevant until he brings secondary sources. Once such sources are found, they can be cited in the section on Bishop's criticism, as well. I don't see how we can choose which secondary sources to follow and which to ignore. Katzmik (talk) 08:35, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - I reproduce the following interesting comment by John Z, made above in a place where it is virtually impossible to find unless you know it's there. His comment shows that there is secondary literature corroborating the fact that we are dealing with a philosophical challenge to NSA, rather than just a pedagogical debate: "To belatedly answer, and with the title change somewhat irrelevantly, I am quite sure that Halmos did somewhere write that he deliberately chose Bishop in order to create a tempest in a teacup, but thousands of miles from my books and files, I can't be of much help tracking it down. IIRC he wrote he had been criticized for making this selection but said it was intentional and he did it in other cases, that philosophically opposed reviewers would be likely to produce thought-provoking reviews, essentially, that there is no light without heat.John Z (talk) 05:30, 19 December 2008 (UTC)"[reply]
    - I wonder if Katzmik could respect the subdivisions he created? (Halmos and Bishop have nothing to do with "Connes' critique".) Secondly CSTAR, who wrote the original material on Connes in 2004 that Katzmik copied-and-pasted from another wikipedia article without checking things for himself, has agreed that he does not wish to misrepresent Connes' views or work on wikipedia and that this material can be updated as appopriate (see his talk page). In the intervening four years, Connes has given far more detail on why he should have mentioned NSA. Mathsci (talk) 09:03, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Consensus?

Consensus now seems to have been reached - the new broader title and scope mentioned at the top of the AfD Impact of non standard analysis (or some minor variant). So far nobody seems to have raised an objection and almost everybody seems to have agreed that this is the way forward. It is true that yesterday, deliberately or not, Katzmik chose to create a redirect page with almost the same name. However, that technical detail is irrelevant to this discussion; any confusion that this might have created can easily be ironed out by an administrator. Mathsci (talk) 09:03, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It so happens that I wrote most of the material at the page Influence of non-standard analysis, to which both Impacts are now a redirect. The consensus is reached that a separate article is needed for the influence of non-standard analysis. However, this is irrevant as far as the current AfD is concerned. If you would like to change influence to impact please discuss it at the talk page of Influence of non-standard analysis. Katzmik (talk) 09:09, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Correction: I wrote most of the material, which ~~you~~ was copied and pasted from the Artigue quote here. Mathsci (talk) 09:25, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Correction to correction I already mentioned above that the material from Artigue was copied by thenub, not by me. All the other material at Influence of non-standard analysis was written by me. I consider this a further WP:SLUR on your part. Katzmik (talk) 09:30, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, you're quite correct. MY BAD. It's quite hard to keep track of the new articles and redirects being created during this AfD. Regards, Mathsci (talk) 10:17, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As far as Criticism of nonstandard analysis is concerned, I see only one serious criticism of it on this page, namely Geometry Guy's objection to my broad definition of what constitutes a secondary source. I am not sure how he feels about the article itself with its current title and scope, but I see broad support for retaining it and closing this page with a "keep under new title Criticism of nonstandard analysis". Perhaps it would be better to add a dash in line with Non-standard analysis but this can be ironed out later. Katzmik (talk) 09:13, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(noindent) I have read what CSTAR, Charles Matthews, Thenub and others have written and am waiting for comments. Katzmik's creation of yet another redirect just now seems to indicate that he is actually disrupting the normal functioning of wikipedia. I wonder whether he could please calm down and let other editors comment. I think by now we are all aware of his views, his methods of checking material and for creating articles. Please could he allow other editors to make their comments, rather than trying to crowd out this final request for comment. This is exactly the proposal of Charles Matthews. Please could Katzmik stop disrupting this AfD. Mathsci (talk) 09:22, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You must be reading a different talk page. Here is what I read at this page: "The solution here is surely for the nominator to withdraw the nomination in the light of discussion, and debate to adjourn to the talk page of the article. Charles Matthews (talk) 08:06, 18 December 2008 (UTC)" Katzmik (talk) 09:27, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(unindent) Charles Matthews wrote:

Further, the creation of a POV fork under a "criticism of" title is a retrograde step here, from a "controversy" title. Therefore an "impact" title would be better.

After you have taken this in, and read what CSTAR, Greathouse, etc, have written, please refactor the comment you have added at the top of the page, which is some kind of personal attack on me. Please stop making personal attacks like this, where rather than commenting on my edits you are calling into question my "sanity". Read other people's comments more carefully before speaking in their place. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 09:53, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was redirect to Tiger Cruise. Nothing sourced, nothing merged. Cirt (talk) 02:10, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My Hero Is You

Non-notable song. Didn't chart, no sources. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • ^{(Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP)} 04:46, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect and merge to Tiger Cruise Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 05:13, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions. -- Undead Warrior (talk) 07:14, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Albums and songs-related deletion discussions. -- Undead Warrior (talk) 07:15, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect & Merge: As per above user.--SkyWalker (talk) 14:07, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

*Keep 203.218.142.28 (talk) 05:31, 15 December 2008 (UTC) This is Brianyau323, see WP:Suspected sock puppets/Brianyau323 (4th)[reply]

Delete.—Kww(talk) 13:12, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: non-notable song, as per WP:MUSIC. JamesBurns (talk) 04:48, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was speedy delete (spam) by Jerry. Non-admin closure. MuZemike (talk) 18:38, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

American home enterprises

Strong delete - I see no reason to assume this company has met, or can meet within the next 30 days, the guidelines of WP:ORG. There are no references and a google web search returns nothing but ads. I am open to discussion. Digital Mischief 04:37, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Strong delete I would say speedily. ChildofMidnight (talk) 07:01, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Business-related deletion discussions. -- Undead Warrior (talk) 07:15, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Strong delete - Fails WP:ORG, also blatant PR material. — neuro^(talk) 08:55, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - of no value to wikipedia. - Richard Cavell (talk) 10:10, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy delete: the primary sources given were not enough to elevate the article from spam-class. Alexius08 (talk) 12:33, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Finish AfD rather than speedy in order to avoid it from being recreated. Bongo matic 12:47, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was no consensus. Stifle (talk) 11:12, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Special Entertainment

AfDs for this article:

This article was afd'd before with the debate result being delete. Recently, there was an afd for a supposed subsidiary of this company. You can check that afd here.[[20]] During that debate, there was some consensus that the subsidiary was more notable than the parent company. Since that article was deleted, I think it follows that this article should be removed as well. Additionally, the article is not substantially sourced and it does not assert notability. Delete. SERSeanCrane (talk) 03:16, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am also nominating the following related pages because they attempt to draw their notability from their production company, the aforementioned Special Entertainment:

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Film-related deletion discussions. -- Undead Warrior (talk) 07:16, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Business-related deletion discussions. -- Undead Warrior (talk) 07:16, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Living people-related deletion discussions. --Erwin85Bot (talk) 00:04, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Keep ~~Delete~~ Special Entertainment as barely notable.. but notable. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 03:44, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Andrew Swant as his notability is drawn from his works and not Special Entertainment. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 03:44, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - (From WP:Creative)

Scientists, academics, economists, professors, authors, editors, journalists, filmmakers, photographers, artists, architects, engineers, and other creative professionals:

The person is regarded as an important figure or is widely cited by their peers or successors. Fail

The person is known for originating a significant new concept, theory or technique. Fail

The person has created, or played a major role in co-creating, a significant or well-known work, or collective body of work, which has been the subject of an independent book or feature-length film, or of multiple independent periodical articles or reviews. Fail

The person's work either (a) has become a significant monument, (b) has been a substantial part of a significant exhibition, (c) has won significant critical attention, or (d) is represented within the permanent collections of several notable galleries or museums, or had works in many significant libraries. Fail

Response With respects to the nom, per the significant attention toward Hamlet A.D.D, and sources covering the subject himself at MKE Online #1, MKE Onlne #2, Outside In, Milwaukee Journal Sentinal, Vital Source Magazine, UWM.edu, Bobby Ciraldo Passes WP:CREATIVE. Its a squeeker... but he passes. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 22:53, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment With regard to these sources:

MKE Online #1 & MKE Onlne #2 - Per WP:LIVE#Reliable_sources, Zines are not reliable sources. With that said, the first entry details the duo's internet meme, but, per WP:ONE, this doesn't cement Swant as wiki-notable. The second entry is about another artist collaborating with Ciraldo; nothing important, really.

Outside In & Milwaukee Journal Sentinal - These two links refer to the same entry and are about Swant, not Ciraldo.

Vital Source Magazine - Per WP:LIVE#Reliable_sources, Zines are not reliable sources.

UWM.edu - This is nothing more than a fellowship announcement. Also, College Newspapers are a weak source for establishing notability as they tend to have very circulation.

SERSeanCrane (talk) 02:39, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Bobby Ciraldo as his notability is drawn from his works and not Special Entertainment. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 03:44, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - (From WP:Creative)

Scientists, academics, economists, professors, authors, editors, journalists, filmmakers, photographers, artists, architects, engineers, and other creative professionals:

The person is regarded as an important figure or is widely cited by their peers or successors. Fail

The person is known for originating a significant new concept, theory or technique. Fail

The person has created, or played a major role in co-creating, a significant or well-known work, or collective body of work, which has been the subject of an independent book or feature-length film, or of multiple independent periodical articles or reviews. Fail

The person's work either (a) has become a significant monument, (b) has been a substantial part of a significant exhibition, (c) has won significant critical attention, or (d) is represented within the permanent collections of several notable galleries or museums, or had works in many significant libraries. Fail

Response With respects to the nom, per the significant attention toward Hamlet A.D.D, and sources covering the subject himself at On Milwaukee, MKE Online #1, MKE Onlne #2, Outside In, Milwaukee Journal Sentinal, Vital Source Magazine, UWM.edu, Andrew Swant Passes WP:CREATIVE. Its a squeeker... but he passes. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 22:53, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment With regard to these sources:

On Milwaukee - ~~I'm not sure how this would qualify as a reliable source. I may be wrong, though.~~ See below.

MKE Online #1 & MKE Onlne #2 - Per WP:LIVE#Reliable_sources, Zines are not reliable sources. With that said, the first entry details the duo's internet meme, but, per WP:ONE, this doesn't cement Swant as wiki-notable. The second entry is about another artist collaborating with Swant; nothing important, really.

Outside In & Milwaukee Journal Sentinal - These two links refer to the same entry. There, the writer notes: "So, as you may know by now, several artists and readers and friends called into the Art City phone line to make suggestions about what to see this Gallery Night -- tomorrow night already! Andrew Swant had a few ideas. Click here [omitted] to listen to his voice message. How does this source establish notability?

Vital Source Magazine - Per WP:LIVE#Reliable_sources, Zines are not reliable sources.

UWM.edu - This is nothing more than a fellowship announcement. Also, College Newspapers are a weak source for establishing notability as they tend to have very circulation.

SERSeanCrane (talk) 02:39, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Rebuttal: "On Milwaukee" promotes themselves as "Milwaukee's Daily Magazine" and is a reliable source independent of the subject. Had the nom followed the links in the proffered ref, he would have found this and this which specifcally speak toward the notability of Special Entertainment and its filmmakers. MKE has just last week been proven notable and survived an earlier attempt from this nom to delete its article. Their reports are reliable and independent of the subject. MKE was a weekly (PAPER) magazine published in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, by Journal Communications and is not a "zine". MKE Online is simply an archive of past stories. Notability is not temporary, dispite the different format of its presentation. Vital Source is also not a "zine", despite the nom's claim, as it has both a hardcopy print edition and an online version. The proferred story covered Bobby Ciraldo, Andrew Swant, AND Special Entertainment. Multiple sources of various strengths were offered to refute the nom's continued claim of non-notability. If the nom continues to have a problem with these sources, he may wish to bring his concerns to the Reliable Sources noticeboard, as his opinion of their reliability is not supported by consensus. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 20:35, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I goofed on the OnMilwaukee.com reference. My apologies, it is reliable. That said, the two articles you referenced do not establish notability, rather, they point to the groups participation in a local film festival (they competed amongst 70 total submissions), and a report on a spoof of what what (in the butt). 'What what' is notable, however, as was explained to in the Brownmark Films afd [[21]] notability is not inherited. SERSeanCrane (talk) 04:51, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment With regard to the MKE diatribe, the latter comment still stands: "the first entry details the duo's internet meme, but, per WP:ONE, this doesn't cement Swant as wiki-notable. The second entry is about another artist collaborating with Swant; nothing important, really." SERSeanCrane (talk) 04:57, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Finally, with regard to vital source, zine or not, it republished a press release (which is available word for word at the UWM.edu link) from an art fellowship award that details the recipient's resumes (independent??). While somewhat impressive, it is not a claim to notablity. If it were, we should go ahead and start the list of Rhodes Scholars. SERSeanCrane (talk) 05:11, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Special Entertainment - normally this should be redirected to prostitution or strip show. 76.66.195.159 (talk) 08:11, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete as no evidence of notability. --Gavin Collins (talk) 14:42, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Note to closer: Please review what comments are directed toward Special Entertainment and what comments are directed toward filmmakers Andrew Swant and Bobby Ciraldo, as different coverages for different reasons would make it difficult to paint all three with the same brush. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 23:03, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Special Entertainment doesn't have a lot of news coverage, but it looks to be a legitimate company with verifiable films in production. Either way, Swant and Ciraldo both have noteworthy accomplishments outside of Special Entertainment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.30.186.104 (talk) 06:48, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please name the noteworthy accomplishments. SERSeanCrane (talk) 18:13, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Gee... the assertions of notability ARE in the article, after all... but since you want it relisted here: "whose works include Hamlet A.D.D. and William Shatner's Gonzo Ballet, as well as work on the film Modus Operandi." If the the works of a writer/filmmaker are notable, then that notability is also the filmmaker's for creating the notable item which would have otherwise existed. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 19:56, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Are they notable? Let's save that debate for another day. SERSeanCrane (talk) 05:15, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Weak keep all three. Some evidence of notability. A merge discussion after AfD would be appropriate. ChildofMidnight (talk) 08:26, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please discuss this evidence. SERSeanCrane (talk) 18:13, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

??? That's what the article's discussion page are for. Here, editors read the articles, look at the proferred sources, and offer their opinion toward reaching a consensus. You ask editors qualify their opinions if they disagree with you... but they have read the same informations you did and have simply reached a different conclusion. With respects, wouldn't it be better to simply let the AfD run its course? Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 22:03, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I was under the impression that afds are not a vote and, to me, the above statement constitutes nothing more than a vote. With that said, I don't think it's better to just let it run its course. The point of these is to generate a discussion so that consensus can be achieved. What did he find notable about the articles? Why is this a weak keep versus a normal keep? For the deletionistas, what is the article's major shortcoming? Meaningful participation is all I ask for. Feel free to chastise me on my talk page from here on. SERSeanCrane (talk) 04:17, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmmm... looked over my words carefully and did not see that I used the word "vote". Sorry you take my opinions at this AfD as such even though AfD is not a vote. I will not rebut your comments at this AfD anywhere but at this AfD. Transparency is best. Other editors who are more succinct in their opinions certainly have that right and a closing admin will make of it what he or she will. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 06:06, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I was referring to ChildofMidnight's ~~vote~~ statement. SERSeanCrane (talk) 06:49, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Understood. ChildofMidnight may have been succinct, but the opinion seems based upon having seen the sources and read the article and discussion. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 07:19, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment This isn't a case of self-published work on youtube and myspace. The business and the individuals have been involved in notable projects, participated in major film festivals, and been recognized for their work. It's not a clear cut case, we're not talking George Lucas here, but I think it makes the encyclopedia better to include the articles in some form. ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:55, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Snow delete, but actually there's no reason why a similar article couldn't be written with proper sourcing - after all we have Films considered the greatest ever. Black Kite 09:50, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The greatest goalkeepers ever

From the PROD: Unreferenced, subjective list Terrillja _talk 01:33, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete as inherently subjective. WillOakland (talk) 01:38, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Totally subjective. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • ^{(Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP)} 02:34, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Not so fast--just look at Lev Yashin, for instance, and the link found in that article. The article is bad, no doubt, but inherently subjective, well, I don't really think so. Undoubtedly, Schmeichel and Yashin are better goalies than me, and those kinds of things can be judged, and are judged (if only by transfer sums; just ask Gianluigi Buffon). One might ask what the point is of such a list, of course. Drmies (talk) 02:53, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Note From the link: "considered by many to be the greatest goalkeeper", so even Britannica uses weasel words. No way to tell who feels that he is the greatest goalkeeper. Britannica could be referencing his best friends for all we know. --Terrillja _talk 03:01, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, seriously, it is Brittanica, not some blog, and it's not likely they use his friends. Besides, European Footballer of the Year is not nothing. I won't deny those are weasel words, but Brittanica's entries are generally shorter than WP's. That 40 or 50 years after his career he would still be called this, even in weaselish words, is meaningful. Then, Buffon transfers for 52 million Euros, that's meaningful, and sources could be found to corroborate that--and they would probably say something about him. Listen, I'm not on a mission to save this really poor list, but 'inherently (or 'totally') subjective' is a stretch. Drmies (talk) 05:55, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Subjective list. Doc Strange^MailboxLogbook 03:09, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Subjective, unsourced, and unnecessary list to boot. Doesn't meet WP:SALAT. Graymornings_(talk) 22:06, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete subjective, unsourced, and unsalvageable--a rename wouldn't help. JJL (talk) 03:30, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Agree with others that page is naturally subjective, and lacks references. Giants2008 (17-14) 04:33, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
DeleteNot needed Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 05:07, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - This list's very title & topic is subjective; "The greatest goalkeepers" could be judged by any criterion. This completely fails WP:NPOV and cannot be viewed as encyclopedic content. I would go so far as to suggest premature deletion per WP:SNOW; I just don't see this list as being able to become encyclopedic. Robert Skyhawk ^{So sue me! (You'll lose)} 05:11, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merge its useless, has no point, and overall is just a waste of an article, its most likly a new editor who needs a guide, his him time, then merge to Goalkeeper —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dappl (talk • contribs) 05:26, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Disagree I see no reason to merge this, since it is all subjective and wouldn't really add to goalkeeper. And please try to remain civil. --Terrillja _talk 05:40, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Strong delete - Subjective, likely OR, unsourced, and undeserving of a merge. — neuro^(talk) 08:56, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - and put this snowball out of its misery. Richard Cavell (talk) 10:27, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete as useless unsourced weasel-filled article. Alexius08 (talk) 12:36, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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Delete as complete fancruft, unless some reliable sources exist for lists of greatest keepers ever. Does FIFA keep such a list? What of the various football magazines (and not just British ones who think football began in 1992)? Totnesmartin (talk) 18:58, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
BJAODN per all of the above, blizzard conditions, and what is an excellent candidate for the WP:DUMB list. MuZemike (talk) 23:55, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per all of the above. The initial edit to this page made it clear that it wasn't even what it says on the can (it was for the 20 best GKs ever in the English premier league - which instantly rules out such greats as Yashin, Banks, Jennings, and Zoff). In any case, ask 20 different people who the greatest goalies ever were and you'll get 20 different answers. Oh, and MuZemike - BJAODN doesn't exist any more, sadly. Grutness...wha? 00:29, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. Cirt (talk) 02:09, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Chaos Corporation

NN per WP:MUSIC. Only source given is Encyclopaedia Metallum, which is obviously non-RS given its wiki-ish nature. A google search turned up no notable reviews or articles. roux 17:48, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete Per lack of sources, I not encountered any review, in addition to this EP was sold only in the band's concerts. Canniba loki 22:53, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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comment I've seen it that albums by notable artists are inherently notable and I've seen it said that notability is not inherited. So what's the story?ChildofMidnight (talk) 07:03, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - from WP:MUSIC: "In general, if the musician or ensemble that recorded an album is considered notable, then officially released albums may have sufficient notability to have individual articles on Wikipedia" (emphasis mine). It's an officially released album, sure, but there's nothing notable about it whatsoever. //roux 15:30, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Thanks Roux for clarification of policy. The band itself has no independent references, so their notability isn't well established. This part of discography can be included in their article, perhaps it helps establish notability for the band? But I don't think the album is notable on its own based on policy guidelines. ChildofMidnight (talk) 20:03, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: notability not established, as per WP:MUSIC. JamesBurns (talk) 02:29, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. Cirt (talk) 02:08, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fatali

not notable, per WP:MUSIC or WP:BIO - should be deleted and redirected to Fatali Khan Khoyski, Azerbaijani prime minister. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 18:23, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Keep - I've never even heard of Fatali Khan Khoyski, but I've sure heard of Fatali! More antipsytrance on Wikipedia. We lost Texas Faggott last week, let's not lose another important psytrance band shall we? They don't chart; psytrance doesn't chart. But find me a psytrance fan, anywhere in the world, who has not heard of these bands or seen them countless times. Now perhaps people will agree that there is an attempt, for god knows what reason, to eradicate psytrance from Wikipedia. Enough is enough. 29,800 pages on Google list BOTH "Fatali" AND "trance". Can we stop this nonsense, now? I live in London and Fatali was one of the reasons I went to Turkey 2 years ago, to see the live set. One of the highlights. So please, stop this antipsytrance rubbish. Tris2000 (talk) 12:13, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete. First of all, there is no conspiracy, even though you claimed that in the Texas Faggott AfD process. At least, I'm not in it; I still don't know what psytrance is (although if it is what I think it is, I probably like it). Charts, that's one of many ways of establishing notability--don't go claim some anti-commercial stance here for this genre; I'm sure Fatali gets paid for his many venues and festivals. I looked at some sixty or seventy Google-hits, and none of them, not a single one, is what might be called independent, objective, in-depth. Sure, Google proves he exists, but that's not the point. Not notable. Drmies (talk) 03:02, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
~~Comment~~ Delete- Article doesn't provide verifiable sources to establish notability. --Jmundo (talk) 16:26, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Delete: As is, the article fails WP:BAND and is deletable IMO. But, if enough references actually exist, I don't see this as beyond saving. If references could be found to establish notability, this article would just need NPOV work. But, if the references don't exist to give this topic some ground, I'd say delete. By the way, when an editor puts similarly worded !votes on multiple AfD's, it tends to reduce their impact. Just a tip. Robert Skyhawk ^{So sue me! (You'll lose)}
Delete - At this particular point in time, the artist fails WP:MUSIC. — neuro^(talk) 08:57, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: article fails to establish notability of this artist, as per WP:MUSIC. JamesBurns (talk) 03:08, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Cirt (talk) 02:08, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Augustus Mancuso

One mention in a specialist text is probably not enough to assert notability. Listed here as speedy was declined. roux 18:14, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete. Aside from being an alleged relative of a mob boss, it is not clear what notability is even asserted. Interest from multiple reliable sources not found in search. • Gene93k (talk) 04:41, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete. Is this person in this article a psychological case study? Is it two different people? This article is such a mess that I can't really figure out what I am reading--though I think I am reading a (bad) book report. Drmies (talk) 03:16, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Looks like a summary of case study from a notable book. No presence found in any other media. ^LeaveSleaves _talk 14:05, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. MBisanz ^talk 03:43, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dark Soho

band fails WP:BAND, sourced to their myspace page and nothing seemingly making them notable.

Carlossuarez46 (talk) 18:26, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Keep - more antipsytrance on Wikipedia. We lost Texas Faggott last week, let's not lose another important psytrance band shall we? They don't chart; psytrance doesn't chart. But find me a psytrance fan, anywhere in the world, who has not heard of these bands or seen them countless times. Now perhaps people will agree that there is an attempt, for god knows what reason, to eradicate psytrance from Wikipedia. Enough is enough. "Dark Soho" gets 136,000 ghits Tris2000 (talk) 12:07, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Myspace band.—Kww(talk) 13:25, 13 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: insufficient notability per WP:BAND. JamesBurns (talk) 00:56, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete: No 3rd party sources, no assertion of notability. Robert Skyhawk ^{So sue me! (You'll lose)} 01:18, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Another band with lots of hits, and they're all MySpace, blogs, fansites, and discographies from online stores. Tris2000, please have a look at WP:NM. Drmies (talk) 03:25, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete both per nom. Quid Pro Quo²³ 07:38, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Insufficient sources, fails WP:MUSIC. — neuro^(talk) 08:57, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. John254 00:04, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In-Quest

Fails WP:MUSIC Canniba loki 13:47, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete No references or assertion of notability. Ancemy (talk) 21:57, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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Keep. OK, this isn't Sepultura. But they have six albums now (and not their own releases), they've toured and played with a couple of not so smallish bands. I know, this isn't the argument to use, but we've got worse in our encyclopedia. Drmies (talk) 04:26, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment if deleted, redirect to Inquest 76.66.195.159 (talk) 06:40, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep There were a few references added to the article, but there was no reflist. Several albums, substantial history, probably more references out there for those willing to find them. ChildofMidnight (talk) 07:10, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, my mistake--forgot to add that after some editing. There may be more references--their albums have been reviewed by Aardschok, but I don't have access to that. And when I have a moment, I may rewrite the whole thing, if it survives of course. Thanks Child, Drmies (talk) 15:58, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Notability established by above users. Chubbles (talk) 19:57, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. Cirt (talk) 02:08, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Aaron Lane

Non notable former college football player who was released before playing a game in the NFL, fails WP:BIO, prod removed Delete Secret ^account 12:53, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Keep Although he didn't play an actual game, he was signed by a pro-football team, which is the highest level one can play at that sport. Lorty2 (talk) 02:21, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Uhh, WP:BIO requests that he needs to play one game. Secret ^account 13:06, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - WP:BIO says "People who have competed at the fully professional level of a sport". This is a little unclear. Some third-string quarterbacks have articles who did not play a game. Because Lane was on the roster, he should be kept.
Delete WP:BIO says "People who have competed at the fully professional level of a sport". Lane has not competed at NFL level. Duffbeerforme (talk) 10:23, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete Not notable. ChildofMidnight (talk) 07:07, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Cirt (talk) 02:07, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hazelbury Green

Per PROD note (open since March with no objections), subject substantially fails the general notability guideline for coverage. Beyond this, while there is no confirmed criteria for places (just the odd essay), there doesn't appear to be anything notable or unique about this housing estate. That would warrant an article. Towns possibly have inherent notability. Even the odd street - given certain conditions. But a non-unique, un-sourced, un-cited, housing project with no coverage? Probably not. Guliolopez (talk) 12:21, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete - Non-notable housing estate which happens to be located in Dublin.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Balloholic (talk • contribs)
Delete - Nothing notable at all about this housing development: it is not historic, no connection to anything notable, nothing that separates it from any other of the millions of housing developments. —Noah 04:22, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete Could be speedied no? ChildofMidnight (talk) 07:22, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Based on which criterion? - Mgm|^(talk) 15:34, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was no consensus. Stifle (talk) 11:13, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Techno-mathematics

Neologism, OR --fvw * 06:56, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Keep - seems like a valid subject. Offered by the Lund University and the University of Karlsruhe, to name a few [22] [23].
Keep - I know nothing about mathematics, but this is clearly not Original Research as there are five references. To get round the Neologism (if it is one), perhaps someone could ask Wikipedia:WikiProject Mathematics for a better title. Totnesmartin (talk) 09:44, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- References don't mean original research, after all research papers have references too. The fact that it is a course name at multiple universities is a more compelling argument to keep. --fvw* 09:58, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - Hmm, hope this doesn't sound like sour grapes, but it's actually a copyvio. Will tag it as such and leave it for someone else to clean up or rewrite. --fvw* 09:59, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    - Thanks for discovering the problem. :) I have zero familiarity so will not weigh in on this AfD, but I wanted to note that the copyvio issue has been addressed by an IP contributor who rewrote the material. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 13:14, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment I suspect this subject has much more to do with mathematics education than mathematics. Ray (talk) 17:42, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete or redirect to applied mathematics, which is what this is. This page is the source of the copyvio; that the University of Kigale has come up with a snazzy new name for its app. math. major is nice, but does not justify this waste of space. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:46, 12 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Applied mathematics"? This is more about teaching than about mathematics. Michael Hardy (talk) 23:59, 13 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete Beside the fact the article is currently unusable... it is clear that the topic is merely a non-notable term for a teaching concept that is a minor attempt at attracting students to a single focus of applied mathematics. The title itself is meaningless, specific and is indeed a neologism, one used by a few notable but desperate Universities, and nothing that is soon to enter the mainstream. - Jimmi Hugh (talk) 04:17, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep (if copyvio is resolved; if not we're wasting our time). It's not a neologism. The International Council for Industrial and Applied Mathematics (ICIAM, formerly CICIAM) decided to award a 1999 Pioneer Prize to Helmut Neunzert for: "his work over the last twenty years in developing the "techno-mathematics" both as a scientific discipline and as a curriculum, now offered in more than twenty-five universities, and in developing the specialization of industrial mathematics through active consulting and modeling, playing a leading role in the European Consortium for Mathematics in Industry,and founding and directing the Fraunhofer Institute for Techno- and Econo-mathematics at Kaiserslautern." So it looks like the term is about thirty years old. I suspect that there will be enough sources to establish notability; my only worry is that the article may not grow beyond a dictionary definition. A merge to applied mathematics may well be in order. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 13:59, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. As far as I can see, the first paragraph (on ethnomathematics, education and dialectics) is not supported by the references, thus Original Research and it should be deleted. My "keep" comment above pertains to the second paragraph, which seems to be about something different. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 16:46, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Cirt (talk) 02:07, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

MonoX

No evidence of notability given. --fvw * 10:07, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

More content and more secondary references than many of the articles in the "parent" article List of content management systems Monosoftware (talk) 13:30, 9 December 2008 (UTC) — Monosoftware (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
- That doesn't mean that this article is notable. It just means that no one bothered to nominate the crappy articles in that list for deletion. Schuym1 (talk) 17:03, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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Delete. A quick Google news search turned up lots of hits for "MonoX", but none that I could see were related to this piece of software. I don't think it's going to be possible to establish notablity. LinguistAtLarge 04:24, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: Doesn't show notability per WP:NOTABILITY. Schuym1 (talk) 17:03, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was merge to University of Texas at Austin. Mgm|^(talk) 15:28, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Tejas Club

Fails criteria of notability for organisations listed at WP:ORG. dougweller (talk) 06:58, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete as above. In addition to not claiming any notability, the article doesn't even say what the group is or what they do. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 09:04, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merge/Redirect - To University of Texas at Austin under student activities. The club/fraternity has actually generated quite a bit of local coverage, as noted here [24]. Enough for its own article no. But enough that I believe it would be a welcome addition to the University of Texas at Austin piece and falls well with in the guidelines as shown at 3.1 Non-commercial organizations

. Thanks ShoesssS ^Talk 14:31, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Merge with University of Texas at Austin per ShoesssS' excellent research. LinguistAtLarge 04:26, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merge Worth including, perhaps not as its own article. ChildofMidnight (talk) 07:18, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merge - to University of Texas at Austin. — neuro^(talk) 08:58, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Cirt (talk) 02:05, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Options for Britain II

Academic project with no particular notability. Cordless Larry (talk) 01:02, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete--despite the number of words in the article, the number of participants in the project, and the number of books and articles penned by some of the members, this project itself is not notable. There are plenty of hits on google to prove that this project exists, but all of the hits I looked at are either press releases (or sound an awful lot like it) or notes on the project by contributing organizations. I didn't see a single newspaper or magazine article. Drmies (talk) 02:38, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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Delete Notability nto established. ChildofMidnight (talk) 07:15, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
comment http://www.egovmonitor.com/node/17762 isn't a bad source, but it is all I can find. Hobit (talk) 14:57, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. For something which seems, on the surface, so important, it surprisingly seems to have received no public notice whatsoever that I can find. --CalendarWatcher (talk) 09:09, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. This has been relisted twice and while there has been quite a bit of work on the article during its listing, the delete !votes are still coming in. As such, clearly the improved sources have been weighed in the balance and found wanting. Stifle (talk) 11:16, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Animal Behavior (Praxis single)

It doesn't appear to meet WP:MUSIC. Rockfang (talk) 14:59, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

KEEP: Article was listed for deletion on day of creation, with far less content. Why should it not meet WP:MUSIC? It is the first and only single of supergroup Praxis (legends like Bootsy Collins, Bernie Worrell, Bill Laswell plus then young musicians Bryan Mantia and Buckethead). The single and its video once were the main promotional tools of record label Axiom. A search on Google gave 18,400 results including some notable and reliable sources like Discogs. Of course the video section has to be rewritten and additional sections (on the lyrics or production) may be included. --Say Headcheese!-hexa Chord ² 18:10, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, fails notability per WP:MUSIC#Songs. It hasn't charted, no awards, no notable covers. Esradekan Gibb ^"Talk" 22:02, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Did Gesang der Jünglinge chart, did it get any awards, were there any notable covers? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.228.86.51 (talk) 22:48, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: WP:MUSIC#Songs says that it's preferable to include the information about a single in the artist's article or in the album's article, but in this case the text neither really fits into Praxis (band) nor was the single extracted from an album (only one version from Transmutation (Mutatis Mutandis)). --Cyfal (talk) 22:45, 5 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: notability not established, a non-charting single. WP:MUSIC. JamesBurns (talk) 22:46, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete Didn't chart, no reliable sources (Discogs doesn't count I'm afraid). Keep !voters are crazy; there's nothing here to say about it, almost all hits are lyrics.Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • ^{(Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP)} 00:33, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't know if personal attacks are useful in this debate and will not discuss about why you needed three attempts to make your statement. I didn't find even one link to lyrics and really searched for them because nothing is said about Bootsy's words in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.228.59.136 (talk) 20:21, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Didn't chart. Fails WP:RS. Fails WP:MUSIC#SONGS. Lyrics don't confirm notability. Undead Warrior (talk) 00:53, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Here you may have your sources:
  - Alternative Press (12/92, p.66) - "..Most contrived jam records are comatose on the couch of ego but the Praxis project works because it works on the same principle John Zorn applies with Naked City: if you don't like it, hang tough, it's gonna change soon anyway.."
  - Vibe (Fall/92, p.32) - "..master bass plucker Bootsy Collins and grand keyboard wizard Bernie Worrell perform a mind-boggling feat of musical alchemy...[they] stretch boundaries and cross borders with ease...applies blast after blast of funky heat to solid hard rock.."
  - Reflex (12/15/92, p.73) - "..A tasty amalgam of hip-hop, funk, house, and stone virtuosity, these musicians just jam.."
  - NME (Magazine) (10/10/92, p.40) - "..Bootsy Collins and company all thundering the funk out of a set of tunes that sound as though they were composed on mars...could be the biggest thing since Disposable Heroes Of Hiphoprisy.." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.228.59.136 (talk) 21:09, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete: Fails WP:MUSIC. Schuym1 (talk) 17:44, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why? — Preceding unsigned comment added by HexaChord (talk • contribs)

Because it hasn't charted and there is no reliable sources that show notability. Schuym1 (talk) 22:55, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What's wrong with the sources mentioned above and used for the article? BMI and Allmusic are listen on WP:Music, NME, Alternative Press and VIBE are notable enough to have an article here. Shall I really list songs that also did not chart? One was mentioned above. Man, what kind of discussion is this? It seems more like "Oh, I don't know it, oh, let's delete it..." ---hexa Chord ² 23:49, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The BMI link and the Allmusic link is trivial and I can't read the sources mentioned above so I can't tell if they are trivial or not. Schuym1 (talk) 23:53, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep it as simple as: Tell me what you want (in clear words!) and I'll bring. I'm getting tired of playing hide and seek. ---hexa Chord ² 00:41, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm getting tired of replying to you because you won't understand. I thought that I made it clear on your talk page. Schuym1 (talk) 00:49, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've already read WP:NOTABILITY. There is significant coverage, the sources are reliable and independent. Tell me if not. ---hexa Chord ² 01:11, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The sites are reliable, but it isn't significant coverage. A list of publishers and a list of songs is not significant coverage. I'm done explaining it because I don't care if you understand, I only care if the closing admin understands so I am done replying to you. Schuym1 (talk) 01:33, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You want the article to be deleted, at least you have to explain why. It's a discussion and not a simple voting. And you have to give me a chance to improve the article to a point that it will not be deleted. We came from "no sources at all", had "no reliable sources" and now it's the coverage which is "not significant enough". That's a good way. ---hexa Chord ² 02:13, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would continue to explain, but I don't think that I can explain it in a way that you can understand. I know that's it's not a simple voting. Don't tell me that I didn't explain because I did, you just don't get it. Schuym1 (talk) 02:46, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe you just tell me how many sources you think are needed to justify "significance". How many do we have already? Keep it simple! ---hexa Chord ² 06:37, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep WP:MUSIC#Songs just because it dindt make it into any charts does not means that it doesnt care, just menas it cares to less people, also the single was so rare that if someone expects to find a source that is reliable why dont you look on Bill Laswell page on his page he has a large ammount of his discography and the single does appear, there isnt anything more reliable that the page of one of the artist himself. I think that the "mainstream" thinking that you have wont let you make a fair desition, will you also tell me that every album that wasnt charted on lists, didnt win an awards, or didnt have notable covers will be erased too, every of this singles are part of the informartion abou the album and the artist. Too bad that they didnt get recognized for this single but also you want to delete information that maybe other people would want to know.--Pachon (talk) 20:18, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

NOTE TO ADMIN: When the article was nominated for deletion it looked like this, when it was relisted it had changed to this and now it looks like this. It should be clear that the main editors are willing to improve the article as best as they can. Additionally there is a will to improve the article further if only we are told what exctly has to be improved or changed. Thanks. ---hexa Chord ² 08:43, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Comment I still see no substantial coverage of the song. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • ^{(Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP)} 02:35, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- What do you call substantial? How many more sources do I have to deliver before you call it substantial? BTW: Where are the "almost all hits are lyrics" from above? I still am looking for one. ---hexa Chord ² 13:42, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Praxis are awesome, however, this particular single has had no coverage from any source outside of the band members or there personal labels influence. When it hits a notable chart, in any format, it'll definetly become noteworthy. - Jimmi Hugh (talk) 04:13, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- If MTV and this book plus the already mentioned sources are "no coverage from any source outside..." - ehm - what sources do you want? The Pope? Forget about "charts", we all know Praxis is not mainstream. Does this change their notability? If it's not notable as a single (in commercial terms) it still can be notable as a song in its own right. ---hexa Chord ² 13:42, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - Comment What mention by MTV? As for the book, a trivial passing mention is great as a source of information for the article, but something substantial, and specifically dedicated to the single would make for a much better reference to notability. Praxis are indeed not mainstream, however, they still establish notability, just as the single can without becoming mainstream. The status of the band is not in question, simply this single. Also, unless you Pink Floyd songs don't usually get separate articles, and that required significant notability for each song. - Jimmi Hugh (talk) 15:23, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    - It was played on MTV which is clearly against your "no coverage" thesis. With the book it's the same. This is clearly not "no coverage". ---hexa Chord ² 22:06, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      - Comment Time on TV does not make for significant coverage. A huge number of bands without articles (and not deserving of articles) have had time on TV, nevermind the specific singles. That is not "coverage" of the band in the sense that establishes notability. As for the book, I haven't read it, but clearly there is no section dedicated to the single, it's name is simply dropped in a passage. "Coverage" isn't just a matter of existence of facts or use of a name in passing mention, it's a dedicated and significant reference, aimed directly at, and existing for the purpose of the topic. - Jimmi Hugh (talk) 22:56, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        STOP: You talked about "no coverage" and nothing else. See your statement above! And that's what I answered because I couldn't foresee your last statement. ---hexa Chord ² 20:11, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: I still think the information is both noteworthy and can't be moved to any artist's or album's article, therefore it meets WP:NSONGS. I think the sources are independent enough. --Cyfal (talk) 11:19, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Again keep because there still is no legit argument to delete it. ---hexa Chord ² 13:46, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- This is the user's second !vote in this discussion. Please only one boldface "keep" per AFD. MuZemike (talk) 23:58, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - This is the third round of voting and I'm not the only one voting for a second or third time. BTW: It was my first "boldface keep", plus I wrote "again". ;-) ---hexa Chord ² 18:15, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    - You misunderstand. It pertains to the entire AFD discussion, regardless of how many times it gets relisted. All arguments on the initial listing carry the same weight as it does now. MuZemike (talk) 21:31, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      - I still see only one "boldface keep". ---hexa Chord ² 17:33, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - sources given offer no evidence that subject passes WP:NSONGS.--Boffob (talk) 15:08, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Ok, one more: ~~http://www.screenhead.com/funny/music-video/praxis-animal-behavior-159161.php~~ ---hexa Chord ² 23:37, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - I have struck out the above link and delinked it per WP:COPYLINK.--Rockfang (talk) 02:08, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    - Removing links (like the NME link in the article) won't make this better. BTW: Do you want to keep me busy by nominating all articles and files I created? Can't you wait until I'm gone (=> after this AfD)? Or are you on a mission? ---hexa Chord ² 18:15, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      - I removed the NME link because to me, it appeared to violate Wikipedia policy. If you would like to discuss other files that you had a part in that I found something wrong with, I suggest you talk about it on my talk page. I don't think this AFD is the right place.--Rockfang (talk) 19:32, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        I don't like playing hide and seek. If you're on a mission it is the right place. ---hexa Chord ² 20:11, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Merge and redirect: Charting is not the only notability criterion for music. I quote: "Most songs do not merit an article and should redirect to another relevant article, such as for a prominent album or for the artist who wrote or prominently performed the song. Songs that have been ranked on national or significant music charts, that have won significant awards or honors or that have been performed independently by several notable artists, bands or groups are probably notable. Notability aside, a separate article is only appropriate on a song when there is enough verifiable material to warrant a reasonably detailed article; articles unlikely ever to grow beyond stubs should be merged to articles about an artist or album." 1) There is enough material available to write a reasonably detailed article. 2) The song didn't chart, win any awards or get performed by several notable bands. 3) The band article does not yet suffer space constraints. Therefore, I believe merging it to the band article is best. - Mgm|^(talk) 15:27, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Merging is the best offer I've read so far on the whole page. That's miles away from "Let's delete this avant-garde garbage asap." I still think the song deserves an own article and am pretty sure it could be a very good article if a native speaker would spend a few minutes on it. ---hexa Chord ² 22:06, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Sufficiently referenced and sufficiently informative to keep here. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 08:50, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment The fact the topic is sufficient to be here is the usual reason for a keep argument... however, do you have any actual reasoning? Like some references that weren't added to the article and which don't appear on google when I search it? This isn't really a vote, people put forward reasoning and it's discussed. - Jimmi Hugh (talk) 17:25, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - That's what I'm talking about a whole week now. You gotta dismiss lots of delete votes now then... ---hexa Chord ² 18:15, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: Fails WP:NSONGS as all the ~~reliable~~ sources (apart from the Allmusic one) are self-published sources which fail the reliable sources guidelines. The remaining Allmusic reference discusses an album which contains the single and doesn't discuss the single "directly in detail" per the general notability guideline. --JD554 (talk) 10:58, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- All reliable sources fail reliable sources guidelines? M'kay... ---hexa Chord ² 16:52, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Cirt (talk) 02:05, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Kinergy power

Non-notable company. Headbomb {^ταλκ_{κοντριβς} – WP Physics} 03:12, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This AfD nomination was incomplete. It is listed now. DumbBOT (talk) 14:38, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete--though I wish the nominator had added a bit of content. This article suffers from a bunch of things: it's pretty blatant advertising, it is unverified, and the subject is not yet notable. A google search reveals nothing but blogs submitted, probably, by the "Westchester business executives" who are on the team (the article is almost a carbon copy of an attempt at swaying green-minded folks on an energy site, at http://www.alternative-energy-news.info/harnessing-power-highways/). So, there's no independent third-party coverage that I can find, and a look at the page's history shows pretty easily what's going on: marketing. Maybe, as the creator of the article claims, this is all on the up and up, and maybe this will save the world (I cite the Talk page), but I'll wait till I read about it in the paper. Drmies (talk) 15:36, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete I would've tried to speedy or prod. :) ChildofMidnight (talk) 07:13, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete as fails WP:CORP for lack of sourcing. Interesting idea, nobility to come perhaps. --Gavin Collins (talk) 14:28, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. The article has been around for well over a year and has never progressed beyond the same vague content and non-notable sources. Searches on the company and its people still fail to produce anything of note. Flowanda | Talk 11:09, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. Stifle (talk) 11:16, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Impending Doom (German band)

Fails WP:BAND Canniba loki 00:42, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy Delete - Article fails criterion A7. -- Nomader ^(Talk) 00:58, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete -- struck speedy vote. Thought about it some more and though it does not show enough for WP:BAND, it does attempt to indicate why the subject is important. My mistake. -- Nomader ^(Talk) 01:42, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Weak Keep. They have released two albums on Napalm Records, a label with a decent roster, which per WP:BAND#C5 makes the band notable. I notice that allmusic has them mixed up with the US band Impending Doom, and that band also makes it very hard to search for significant coverage. I don't find anything, in fact, but since they split up in 2001 web news are biased against them. A weak opinion to keep from me, which only relies on the criteria in WP:BAND, not on WP:NOTE. --Amalthea 16:43, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete: insufficient notability per WP:BAND. JamesBurns (talk) 00:54, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, passes WP:MUSIC#C5, multiple albums from a notable label. Esradekan Gibb ^"Talk" 01:28, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep Band existed for a while and is in that other encyclopedia. I think it makes our encyclopedia more complete to include them. ChildofMidnight (talk) 07:14, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Passed the fifth criterion of WP:MUSIC. Undead Warrior (talk) 07:18, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Meets WP:MUSIC. — neuro^(talk) 08:59, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Where does the satisfying criterea 5 come from? The article says the bands albums were released by Voice of Life Records which is supported by the supplied reference (which is not a reliable source). I see nothing that makes them an important indie label. I also can't see where the suggestion of two albums on Napalm Records comes from. Duffbeerforme (talk) 11:53, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- See the allmusic link in my comment above the relisting. I just removed the the part from the article where it said that they were signed with Voice of Life throughout their career, that is almost certainly wrong. Even the metal-archives.com site (not a RS) does not confirm that, and I believe this is where most of the information in the article came from. They BTW give Perverted Taste as the record label that produced Caedes Sacrilegae and Signum Of Hate, which makes me a bit uneasy since I can't find a reliable source confirming the allmusic information. One might be wrong, or it might have been released on both labels.
  This article has an extreme WP:VERIFIABILITY problem. --Amalthea 16:23, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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Comment Amazon.com credits the band's first two albums with Perverted Taste while Amazon.de credits the same two albums with Napalm Records: links here, here, here and here. I suspect that Napalm was simply the distributor for the two albums in Europe and that they were never officially signed to the roster. Unlike Allmusic, Rockdetector has a biography for the band here and while it mentions the group signing onto Perverted Taste and then Cudgel Agency for their third album, there is no mention at all about Napalm Records. That's the sort of detail that Rockdetector tend to note in providing biographies for bands and I find it hard to believe that the website has somehow neglected to mention the band signing onto the more notable and bigger Napalm Record when it mentions them signing onto two little-known underground record labels. --Bardin (talk) 10:17, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Hmm, since amazon.com lists them as imported albums I'd rather suspect the opposite, that Napalm Records is in fact the producing label, and Perverted Taste the overseas distributor. --Amalthea 12:28, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - If Perverted Taste is an "overseas distributor", then Amazon would not list it as an import. That's the whole idea of the import label: there's no distributor in the USA so Amazon has to directly import it from elsewhere. Perverted Taste is a German record label while Napalm Records is an Austrian label. Whichever one Amazon gets it from, it would be imported. There's no mention anywhere on the Napalm Records website of Impending Doom. Searching for the same band on Perverted Taste reveals several results, including the CDs and a shirt. There's no evidence whatsoever that the band was ever signed to Napalm Records and jumping to that conclusion based on what we've got here is quite a stretch. --Bardin (talk) 19:00, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Cirt (talk) 02:05, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Home of the Bold

Notability. Seems to be a minor game, google returns ~2000 hits for "Home of the Bold" game. Unencylopedic, and seems to fail Wikipedia:Notability (web). Prodego ^talk 05:22, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete: Absolutely no context for game itself, and no assertion of notablility whatsoever. Nothing indicating widespread acclaim. Robert Skyhawk ^{So sue me! (You'll lose)} 01:30, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Merge Seems to have enough notability to be worth including somewhere. ChildofMidnight (talk) 07:17, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete Their references include a book they publish themselves which isn't mentioned anywhere other than their sites. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%223D+Programme+Book%22&btnG=Search It also includes a news article from the same website that sells it and this book. Is there any reference outside itself? Shouldn't one of the major game review sites have at least some mention of it? A site that doesn't just review every single thing by a certain company that sponsors it, or lets anyone load up their own review to anything at all. Dream Focus (talk) 09:08, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Cirt (talk) 02:04, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Matthew Croxton

Some claims for notability given, but I don't think the bands mentioned (which don't have articles) or the film credit as "Camper #1" quite pas the muster for the respectiving inclusion criteria. --fvw * 11:11, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete Notability not established. ChildofMidnight (talk) 07:19, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Edit Conflict Delete Fails WP:RS and WP:N. The band redirects to an index. Undead Warrior (talk) 07:20, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Not a whiff of notability until MySpace is considered a "reliable source", and the "independent" criterion is dropped from WP:N.

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The result was delete. Cirt (talk) 02:04, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So Plush (band)

Non-notable band, fails WP:MUSIC. Disputed prod. SummerPhD (talk) 18:27, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete, article fails to establish notability as per WP:MUSIC. Esradekan Gibb ^"Talk" 17:36, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete: Doesn't show notability per WP:MUSIC. Schuym1 (talk) 01:07, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep On major movie soundtrack. Appearances on television shows. I think there's enough notability to preserve the stub. ChildofMidnight (talk) 07:26, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: notability not established, as per WP:MUSIC. JamesBurns (talk) 00:06, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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Delete Fails WP:MUSIC. -- Alexf^(talk) 09:14, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. BJ^Talk 05:01, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Off the subject

Non-notable local public access TV program. Was originally PROD'ed, but the PROD was removed by the author with no explanation, so here we are at AfD. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 18:30, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete. Not notable. Does not have any notable third-party mentions, and no participants on the program are notable. Graymornings_(talk) 03:24, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep But Improve just because it has no notability or isent famous dosent mean its not worth having an article, cause people DO watch it. Does The Game (mind game) have much notability? no, but does it get an article? yes. --Dappl (talk) 05:34, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Please read over WP:N. The game is referenced with reputable, 3rd party sources. Just because people watch something doesn't make it notable. --Terrillja _talk 05:46, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You're confusing notability with verifiability. Something that is not verifiable might still be notable. You just can't prove it. (That's why we have the WP:GNG). - Mgm|^(talk) 15:15, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The Game does have much notability, as it has received a good deal of popular press coverage as an internet meme. And even if it doesn't, that is a discussion for that article. This article needs to be able to stand on its own notability. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 15:09, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Merge Merge with UPTV. This article does not establish notability for a stand alone article. ChildofMidnight (talk) 07:21, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment The UPTV article does not have any other information about any particular programs, except for one particularly notable episode of a controversial program. There is not enough notability (or verifiable notability) for this show to merit mention on the UPTV page. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 15:11, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The UPTV article is two paragraphs long. So discussion of its programming would be a welcome improvement. No? ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:59, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Only if such discussion can be properly sourced and notable. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 19:19, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know if it's notable enough for its own article, but it's certainly verifiable.

"Slackers working for yuks on Urbana public TV show

Author: FRANK R. PIEPER

Date: June 21, 2008

Publication: News-Gazette, The (Champaign-Urbana, IL)

Page: C-3

Document ID: 120080623071442000

They're not exactly Monty Python or the Kids in the Hall – although they have a name now (Slackers Selection) – but St. Joseph-Ogden alumni Ben Foutch, Kyle Frederick, Ian Hastings, Alex Schopp, Andy Schopp and Derek Clem do have their own television show, "Off the Subject," airing at midnight Saturdays on Urbana Public Television, Channel 6. Being public access TV, this half-hour sketch comedy program is more in the vein of... Click here for complete article ($2.95)" ChildofMidnight (talk) 20:11, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There has never been any question of the verifiability of this show -- clearly it DOES exist. But one write-up in a local newspaper does not confer notability. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 20:13, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, a non-notable and unremarkable public access television programme. Might be a good watch, but it needs third party sources. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 03:26, 19 December 2008 (UTC).[reply]

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The result was delete. MBisanz ^talk 03:44, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Atomic Pulse

fails WP:BAND, has been marked for cleanup for 2 years without any action as typical on articles about nn subjects. Their 15 minutes are up. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 18:31, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete No references and with 2 years of waiting, it doesn't seem likely there'll be any. Ancemy (talk) 21:57, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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Delete, fails notability per WP:MUSIC. Esradekan Gibb ^"Talk" 01:25, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete': Doesn't show notability per WP:MUSIC. Schuym1 (talk) 02:17, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Fails WP:MUSIC, and hence fails to show notability. — neuro^(talk) 09:01, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. MBisanz ^talk 03:44, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Cosma

fails WP:BAND, nn, article has been tagged for 2 years and nothing has been done to fix it. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 18:33, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete, fails notability per WP:MUSIC. Esradekan Gibb ^"Talk" 01:25, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: Doesn't show notability per WP:MUSIC. Schuym1 (talk) 02:22, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Does not meet notability guidelines. ChildofMidnight (talk) 07:22, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Fails WP:MUSIC, and hence fails to show notability. — neuro^(talk) 09:01, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. MBisanz ^talk 03:44, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

J.Viewz

nn, fails WP:BAND. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 18:37, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete, fails notability per WP:MUSIC. Esradekan Gibb ^"Talk" 01:25, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Does not meet notability guidelines. ChildofMidnight (talk) 07:24, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Fails WP:MUSIC. — neuro^(talk) 09:02, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: Doesn't show notability per WP:MUSIC. Schuym1 (talk) 17:11, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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== i raff, i ruse == —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.71.165.42 (talk) 03:37, 15 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was no consensus. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 03:25, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The New York Pizza Connection

First of all, "New York Pizza Connection" gives only 899 results on Google ([25]), many of which are about other "pizza connections", not this one, so it is not quite notable. Secondly, this article is terribly written and includes not only weasel words but also a rhetorical question. dicttrshp (talk) 17:05, 5 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This AfD nomination was incomplete. It is listed now. DumbBOT (talk) 19:09, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Weak keep It's sourced. ChildofMidnight (talk) 07:28, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It looks like this theory was adopted by a bunch of journalists who heard it, but not very widespread outside the articles they wrote. Perhaps a brief mention in the article on the New York Subway is a better idea? - Mgm|^(talk) 15:12, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep but Rename to "Pizza Principle" which is also discussed in article. Pizza connection has a very different connotation. Article is souced and the phrase looks like the sort of thing that's going to keep showing up in the New Yorker (or some future book by Malcolm Gladwell), and which out-of-towners will need to look up in WP. Squidfryerchef (talk) 02:13, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete as this crackpot scientific theory fails WP:SPECULATION. --Gavin Collins (talk) 09:54, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep had had third party coverage [26]. Michellecrisp (talk) 05:48, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was merge to List of political parties in Serbia. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 03:23, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Serbian Party

No sources or references, absolutely no proof that this party even exists. Buttons (talk) 00:59, 8 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This AfD nomination was incomplete. It is listed now. DumbBOT (talk) 19:09, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Keep - a minor party but exists.--Avala (talk) 17:05, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. This confirms that it exists and is registered. Phil Bridger (talk) 17:57, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Merge I think it if it's kept it should be merged with the broader party it is in alliance with that also won no seats. ChildofMidnight (talk) 07:25, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merge per above. --MaNeMeBasat (talk) 18:13, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merge, but to List of political parties in Serbia rather than to an article on an alliance - alliances between parties can shift continually so shouldn't be the basis of our organisation of articles. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:44, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was merge to List of political parties in Serbia. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 03:23, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Serbian Justice

No sources or references, absolutely no proof that this party even exists. Buttons (talk) 00:59, 8 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Keep - a minor party but exists.--Avala (talk) 17:05, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. This confirms that the party exists and is registered. I have no opinion yet on notability. Phil Bridger (talk) 17:50, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Merge Stick this in a list somewhere. There's not enough here for an article. ChildofMidnight (talk) 07:27, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merge per above. --MaNeMeBasat (talk) 18:13, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merge. The appropriate target is List of political parties in Serbia. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:45, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was merge to List of political parties in Serbia. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 03:22, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Our Home Serbia

No source or references given to indicate this party exists. Buttons (talk) 01:13, 8 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This AfD nomination was incomplete. It is listed now. DumbBOT (talk) 19:08, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Keep - a minor party but exists. According to this article they hold a mayoral position in Trstenik so I added that information to that article too. "Radovan Raka Radović, kandidat Grupe građana ,,Naš dom Srbija", novi je predsednik opštine Trstenik.". [27]--Avala (talk) 17:05, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Merge They exist and should be included in some fashion but they are not notable per guidelines for their own article. ChildofMidnight (talk) 07:31, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merge per above. --MaNeMeBasat (talk) 18:14, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to List of political parties in Serbia. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:09, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Cirt (talk) 02:03, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ian Winwood

Ian_Winwood (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - ([[{{subst:FULLPAGENAME}}|View AfD]])

No reliable third-party sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cowboy1939 (talk • contribs) 2008/12/09 13:03:21

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Delete Fails WP:N and WP:RS as of now. I cannot find any sources that mention him except for Kerrang. (He did write for them, but that does not establish any notability on it's own.) The article contains a nice amount of original research. The only real claim of notability is that he was invited to ride the Zamboni, but I don't think that passes any criteria on Wikipedia. Undead Warrior (talk) 07:24, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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Delete Insufficient notability per guidelines. ChildofMidnight (talk) 07:29, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was merge to List of political parties in Serbia. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 03:22, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Democratic Movement of Serbian Romanians

Democratic_Movement_of_Serbian_Romanians (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - ([[{{subst:FULLPAGENAME}}|View AfD]])

No source or references given to indicate this party exists. Buttons (talk) 01:09, 8 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This AfD nomination was incomplete. It is listed now. DumbBOT (talk) 19:08, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Keep - a minor party but exists.--Avala (talk) 17:04, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. This confirms that it exists and is registered. I have no opinion on notability. Phil Bridger (talk) 17:21, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Merge I would boldly merge all of these non-notable entities into a list of some sort. They exist, let's include them in the encyclopedia, but not as stand alone articles. ChildofMidnight (talk) 07:30, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merge per above. --MaNeMeBasat (talk) 18:16, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merge. The "list of some sort" is List of political parties in Serbia. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:46, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. Merge was considered but eventually disregarded in light of the lack of a good target. This should not stop someone merging the article at a later date if a good target is identified. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 03:21, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Democratic Fatherland Party

Democratic_Fatherland_Party (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - ([[{{subst:FULLPAGENAME}}|View AfD]])

No source or references given to indicate this party even exists.Buttons (talk) 01:05, 8 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This AfD nomination was incomplete. It is listed now. DumbBOT (talk) 19:08, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Comment The party did exist, as a very minor party. It ran Radoslav Avlijaš for president of Serbia in 2003. See, for example, <http://arhiva.glas-javnosti.co.yu/arhiva/2003/11/06/srpski/P03110506.shtml> An interview with Radoslav Avlijaš. In 2003 Radoslav Avlijaš received 20,872 votes, or .8% of the vote, last in a field of six. See <http://www.politikolog.com/SrbijaPredsIzbori.pdf> Election results in Serbian presidential elections 1990-2004. The party was part of the Independent Serbia (political alliance). It is moribund. --Bejnar (talk) 07:50, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - a minor party but exists. Hopefully the upcoming erasing of inactive parties from the registry will help us out.--Avala (talk) 17:02, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Keep If it ever ran an candidate, it remains notable. the article may need expansion, not deletion. DGG (talk) 05:02, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merge This non-notable Serbian party cruft needs to be merged somewhere into a useful catlog of non-notable parties with no seats. ChildofMidnight (talk) 07:40, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merge per above. --MaNeMeBasat (talk) 18:15, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 03:20, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Custom House Quay

Custom_House_Quay (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - ([[{{subst:FULLPAGENAME}}|View AfD]])

Delete - Non-notable Quay.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Balloholic (talk • contribs) 2008/12/09 16:05:17

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Keep It's not just a quay, but like all of the "quay" names of the same two continuous streets, this is a long part of the main north bank thoroughfare along the River Liffey in central Dublin [28], full of historic buildings and an integral part of Dublin history. --Oakshade (talk) 05:43, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - Thanks for the map, but I know where it is and where it is does not make it notable. Just because this quay is located in the capital city does not make it notable. Sure, every street is historic but that does not make it encylopedically notable. The Old Quay in Ballybunnion is not notable, even if there is a historic building located on it. --Balloholic (talk) 18:51, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Being an historic street to many is considered notable. Dublin isn't the village of Ballybunnion, but the capital and largest city of a nation and thus part of national Irish history. As there seems to be about 20 "Quay" designations for the same two continuous streets, I wouldn't be a opposed to a merge/redirect to a new Quay streets (Dublin) article.--Oakshade (talk) 19:28, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

- Interesting, the merge, but there are also many streets which are not notable enough for there own article. Maybe they could be merged also. Streets like O'Connell, Grafton, Henry, Parnell, Dame are notable to have there own article, but I feel that there are two many others. It is almost as if articles arebeing created for every street in the city. According to that wiki street rule thing there should only be an article for a certain number of streets per town/city population --Balloholic (talk) 19:38, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Comment if this article is kept, it should be renamed to Custom House Quay (Dublin) as there are multiple places known as Custom House Quay. For example, there is a road with that name in Weymouth, Dorset, UK, and a quay (rather uniquely) with the name in Falmouth, Cornwall, UK. A disambiguation page could then provide a list of them. JulesH (talk) 11:18, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. A prosified map does not constitute substantive content as described in WP:CSD#A3. - Mgm|^(talk) 15:05, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 03:19, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

City Quay (Dublin)

City_Quay_(Dublin) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - ([[{{subst:FULLPAGENAME}}|View AfD]])

Delete - non notable quay

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Balloholic (talk • contribs) 2008/12/09 16:07:05

This AfD nomination was incomplete. It is listed now. DumbBOT (talk) 19:08, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Keep It's not just a quay, but like all of the "quay" names of the same two continuous streets, this is part of the main south bank thoroughfare along the River Liffey in central Dublin [29], full of historic buildings and an integral part of Dublin history.--Oakshade (talk) 05:39, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - Thanks for the map, but I know where it is and where it is does not make it notable. Just because this quay is located in the capital city does not make it notable. Sure, every street is historic but that does not make it encylopedically notable. The Old Quay in Ballybunnion is not notable, even if there is a historic building located on it. --Balloholic (talk) 18:56, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete. Lacks substantive content. (speedy a3). All the info in there can be read from a map, there's no actual content describing any historic material or even something more recent. _ Mgm|^(talk) 15:04, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per Mgm. You may say it has notable and historic places on it, but they are not listed in the article, so what good are they? Unless this information is added, this quay is just as notable as any other street in the world. Quid Pro Quo²³ 06:10, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Cirt (talk) 02:01, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Angela MacLean (News Reader)

Contested prod. A journalist for a regional BBC channel. No evidence of meeting WP:BIO offered in article and no independent sources appear available on searching. Nuttah (talk) 19:54, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete per as an unnotable newsreader. Eusebeus (talk) 00:21, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete: Doesn't show notability per WP:BIO. Schuym1 (talk) 01:10, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Insufficient notability. ChildofMidnight (talk) 07:38, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Speedy Deleted as G12. Non admin closure. Rockfang (talk) 04:28, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hendley Associates

AfDs for this article:

Whole sections are either poorly paraphrased or copied directly from The Teeth of the Tiger. Nolookingca (talk) 23:08, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete In universe plot summary. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • ^{(Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP)} 23:58, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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Speedy delete as a copyright violation. Most of the text of this article is copied directly from the novel. Even ignoring that, there's absolutely no contextualization in this article - it's a purely in-universe description of a non-notable plot element. Zetawoof_(ζ) 00:54, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: agreed. I didn't have the book on hand at the time of the original nomination, and didn't realize how much of was done word-for-word. Nolookingca (T | C) 02:19, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - Google Books is an excellent tool for finding copyvios from books. Zetawoof_(ζ) 03:33, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per copyvio. No evidence that this is notable outside the world of the novel. Doesn't need its own article. Graymornings_(talk) 03:29, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was no consensus. Stifle (talk) 11:16, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

DeltaV

AfDs for this article:

Articles for deletion/DeltaV

No secondary sources, fails notability requirements. 208.69.57.189 (talk) 23:16, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment if deleted, redirect to Delta-v (disambiguation) 76.66.195.159 (talk) 05:27, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Keep It has info, its a widely used program, keep the article. --Dappl (talk) 05:08, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete NOtability not established. ChildofMidnight (talk) 07:38, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. The product is definitely notable, it's been used for process control by many notable companies [30] and has won many industry awards [31] that can be cited. It meets WP:Notability, there are secondary sources that discuss it. The article just badly needs a rewrite to sound less like an advertisement and more like an encyclopedia article. Deletion isn't warranted, just a lot of maintenance tags. I've added some secondary sources to indicate its notability and will add more. —User2059 (talk) 01:17, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Both links you've cited are to the company itself. Not a good sign of independent notability. ChildofMidnight (talk) 06:30, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The second link is a list of independent sources, all of which can be cited (for the purposes of this discussion I didn't list them all here). The fact that it's on the company's website doesn't negate its validity. The first link indicates that the product has widespread distribution which means that additional sources are likely to be found. —User2059 (talk) 13:56, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Cirt (talk) 02:00, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hank Hightower

The article is poorly sourced and the subjects appears to fail WP:PORNBIO Tatarian (talk) 00:17, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete. Nothing notable even asserted here, let alone established. Anyone can be listed on iafd or imdb. That alone does not mean the performer ought to be the subject of a Wikipedia entry. David in DC (talk) 19:04, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete Insufficient notability. ChildofMidnight (talk) 07:36, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete no independent reliable sources. Descíclope (talk) 23:59, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. WP:SNOW MBisanz ^talk 03:44, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

BooM! Records

A very confusing article on a non-notable recording company. I could not find any reliable sources on the company and therefore fails WP:CORP. Tavix (talk) 00:09, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: Doesn't show notabiliy per WP:CORP. Schuym1 (talk) 01:13, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, fails notability per WP:CORP. Esradekan Gibb ^"Talk" 01:17, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom. Quid Pro Quo²³ 07:34, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
~~Keep and disambiguate~~ Cab Calloway? If that can be verified it seems like a major label to me. Not sure on the other label. Maybe just delete that one? ChildofMidnight (talk) 07:35, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure if that is true. I couldn't find anything about any record labels from Cab Calloway. You are welcome to prove me wrong though. Tavix (talk) 21:30, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete I removed the information about Bang and Shout records, article subjects covered elsewhere with no indication they are known as Boom record. I don't see a good indication of notability for the remaining record company. Perhaps it can be mentioned in the respective artist articles.ChildofMidnight (talk) 21:55, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
For the first mentioned company: Delete the text relating to this company - it is unverifiable. CoM correctly identifies that if Cab Calloway were published on this label, it would be notable. But I think the first company is made up. For the second mentioned company, I think it probably is notable, but I am not a WP:MUSIC expert. - Richard Cavell (talk) 10:20, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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