Talk:Islamic State/Archive 7

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Establishment Date

Just in case this isn't clear, allow me to verify and explain the reasons the 2013 date is not used and the 2014 date is considered the establishment date. 1. In 2006 the group was a insurgency within Iraq. The insurgents during the Iraq War were never considered an unrecognized by anyone throughout the conflict (not even here on Wikipedia). At this time they were still part of Al Qaeda, which is a terrorist organization. 2. With the end of the war in 2011, the insurgency continued, and eventually what would become ISIS would join the Syrian Opposition. This group already has its own separate article, including an article for the political entity formed for the group. Since ISIL was operating with the rebels in 2013, that date isn't used, as they were working with other members of the opposition. 3. At the very end of 2013, ISIL began to fight the other members of the opposition, which angered the leaders of Al Qaeda. Then, on January 3, 2014, the ISIL took complete control of Fallujah and, as the source provided says, proclaimed an Islamic State. Soon after the takeover, ISIL's ties with Al Qaeda were severed. ISIL was now not only in control of parts of Syria and Iraq, but was also acting on its own, with no further ties to either the opposition or Al Qaeda. It was effectively independent and acting strictly for its own self-interests. It was now an independent unrecognized state.

This is also reflected within the template section. The 2006 and 2013 dates belong either within the text of the article itself or within the war faction infobox. Should further explanation be necessary, I will provide more info. Toolen (talk) 08:18, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

I'm sorry Toolen, but there are some serious mistakes in what you have written, this entity has always considered themselves to be a sovereign state, nothing unique or special happened in Jan 2014 beyond them taking over parts of Fallujah.

1. Firstly, the Islamic State of Iraq was declared in 2006 as a state. Contemporary media reports clearly show that this was their intention, regardless of whether any other parties recognised them (Much like their self proclaimed caliphate many years later).

Reuters 18 October 2006: Dozens of al Qaeda-linked gunmen took to the streets of Ramadi on Wednesday in a show of force to announce the city was joining an Islamic state comprising Iraq's mostly Sunni Arab provinces, Islamists and witnesses said. "We are from Mujahideen Shura Council and our Amir (Prince) is Abu Omar al-Baghdadi. God willing we will set the law of Sharia here and we will fight the Americans," said a man who identified himself as Abu Harith, a Mujahideen field leader. "We have announced the Islamic state. Ramadi is part of it. Our state will comprise all the Sunni provinces of Iraq," he told Reuters in a telephone interview.

As per New York Times shortly after this announcement: the group published a pamphlet laying out its vision for Iraq. It cited trends in globalization as well as the Quran in challenging modern notions of statehood as having absolute control over territory. Mr. Fishman referred to the document as the “Federalist Papers” for what is now ISIS. Under this vision, religion is paramount over administering services. Referring to citizens under its control, the pamphlet states, “improving their conditions is less important than the condition of their religion.” And one of the most important duties of the group, according to the pamphlet, is something that it has done consistently: free Sunnis from prison. “When you go back and read it, it’s all there,” Mr. Fishman said. “They are finally getting their act together.”

Anyone interested can read a lengthy translation and analysis of this document from the Combating Terrorism Center [1]

2. "since ISIL was operating with the rebels in 2013, that date isn't used, as they were working with other members of the opposition". This sounds like WP:OR to me. All sources [2] agree that on 9 April 2014, Abu Bakr al Baghdadi released an audio message announcing the formal expansion into Syria as the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant.

3. All the source says is "On Friday, al-Qaida militants raised their flag over government buildings .....and declared an independent Islamic state" No quotes or attribution. No details of what this state is called. A more detailed source [3] gives context: At Friday prayers, held outdoors and attended by thousands of people, a masked ISIS fighter took the podium and addressed the crowd, declaring the establishment of an “Islamic emirate” in Fallujah. There is nothing unique or unprecedented about this announcement, back in 2013 it regarded the Syrian towns it exercised exclusive control over as emirates [4]. An 'emirate', as used by ISIS, refers to towns and cities that are run by an emir. Gazkthul (talk) 10:53, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

First, who posted the last comment? Secondly, just to correct a slip, the date of the audio message referred to in 2. above and in the source quoted is 2013, not 2104. In that message, posted by al-Baghdad on 8 April 2013 (date given by [5]), al-Baghdadi announced the group's adoption of a new name, the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, so incontrovertible proof. --P123ct1 (talk) 10:10, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, signed the previous comment. Thanks for pointing out the typo, it was 2013. Gazkthul (talk) 10:53, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

I would like to know what reliable source or perhaps linguist told you that "emirate" in Arabic means "towns" or "cities"? Worldedixor (talk) 18:48, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Nobody told me that emirate means towns or cities, nor did I make such a claim. ISIS divides it's territory into provincial wilayah [6], with further subdivisions of emirates. When they took over the Syrian town of Azaz for example, they assigned an Emir to run it [7]. This is quite common for Jihadist groups, when al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula captured the Yemeni town of Jaar, they (re)named it the Emirate of Waqar [8]. I can't read Arabic to confirm for myself, but are you able to translate the following image that has been painted on ISIS controlled territory in Aleppo? [9] Gazkthul (talk) 23:49, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I can. Worldedixor (talk) 00:44, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, I meant I have read a translation that it says Jarablus Emirate, Wilayah Aleppo, Islamic State, but I can't confirm that is accurate. Gazkthul (talk) 00:55, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

I can understand your limitations. Who told you that further subdivisions of a "wilaayah" are called emirates? Also do you know how the United States is translated in Arabic? Worldedixor (talk) 01:03, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

I had been hoping that you would be able to translate the above image, as that could provide one possible example. Gazkthul (talk) 01:20, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

The above image is not a reliable source. It is also very tricky to get into its translation without a lengthy qualifying explanation of the mentality, tribal culture and the variations of something that is not nearly as clearly defined as black or white. I was asking whether you knew how the United States is translated into Arabic as that may possibly indicate your ability to understand a much more elaborate explanation.Worldedixor (talk) 01:33, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Gazkthul, Wikipedia doesn't consider every group that announces its intent to form a nation an unrecognized state. The argument you used above could also be applied to the Caucasus Emirate, which also declared the establishment of a Islamic state, and which is still considered a terrorist organization/insurgency. At the time of the 2013 announcement, ISIL was still affiliated with Al Qaeda and was also still part of the Syrian Opposition. If you require a more reliable source, here is a detailed account of the groups history and recommendations on US policy towards the group written by the United Muslim Association of America: http://www.umaamerica.net/sites/default/files/2014_06_19_UADV_TheIraqCrisis_FINAL.pdf Note how the document emphasizes the 2014 establishment date in Fallujah, while little is mentioned of the events of 2006 and 2013, which are defined as name changes only. I will go ahead and add the source to the article. Toolen (talk) 19:47, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Well, if that document isn't POV, I don't know what is. Are you suggesting Wikipedia should ignore what this group says about itself? Isn't Wikipedia about recording facts, and recording the views of others as just that, views? --P123ct1 (talk) 21:05, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Your source says "ISIL proclaimed to establish an Islamic state in Fallujah". I am not disputing that, whenever they take over territory, they seek to rule it as an Islamic state. This is no different to what they were doing in Iraq years earlier, when they were governing territory until the Iraq Sunnis got sick of them and rose up in the Awakening movement. They have established Islamic states/emirates in other areas they control like Raqqa, Syria.

In a background piece on the group from the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, the author writes: excitement surged online over the prospect of an Islamic state following ISI’s announcement of its own establishment. Since the announcement, all major online jihadist forums list the number of days since the Islamic state was formed (2,813 days, as of June 26, 2014) [10] Jihadists date the State back thousands of days, not a few months. Gazkthul (talk) 00:21, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes, the jihadist do Claim they have ruled for that long, but the problem with that is that there is a difference between what the Jihadist say and what really happened. Consider, for example, the way they view the Iraq War. They claim they won the war and that they defeated and pushed out American military forces. The truth, as I'm sure you're aware, is not that simple. The outcome of the fighting is largely up for debate, but it certainly wasn't a victory for the insurgents. The casualty count for both sides makes that perfectly clear. Furthermore, the United States left of their own accord, as popular opinion had turned against the war. They were certainly not defeated militarily by the insurgents. The Jihadist have a habit of twisting and stretching the truth to suit their own goals and needs. While they certainly make claims of triumphs and conquest in their videos, what they say isn't always the truth. Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not denying that proclamations were made on those dates. I've read the documents, and I've watched some of the videos. They definitely declared that they had created an Islamic State, but the truth is that they were still just an insurgent group at that time. Other, outside sources state that they didn't have as much control as they claimed. We need to differentiate between the propaganda and the truth. None of my sources come from the ISIL. They are outside sources, and they are neutral in the current conflict. They have no connection to ISIL or its associates. One of the sources is even from the UMAA, a Muslim organization. Furthermore, I have already mentioned the fact that they were still part of Al Qaeda at the time of the announcements, and that they were also part of the Syrian Opposition, rather than acting on their own. That changed in early 2014. The group cut its ties to both the Syrian Opposition and Al Qaeda, and they completely took over Fallujah and the surrounding territory, in addition to the areas it held in Syria, which it was now in sole control of (it was no longer working for the Syrian Opposition and the other radical Muslim groups that have sided with the FSA). I also wish to point out that the UMAA document mentions the 2013 date, but considers it merely a name change of the insurgent group. I also offered another example of a similar declaration made by the Caucasus Emirate, which Wikipedia still considers an insurgent group, not a unrecognized state. Like the ISIL, the Caucasus Emirate announced the formation of an Islamic State, but the announcement and the actual formation of a state aren't always the same thing. In the ISIL's case, when the 2014 proclamation was made, they actually had control over a set geographic area at the time, and they were no longer affiliated with the other major insurgent groups in Syria and Iraq. They were also in the process of severing what little connections they had left with Al Qaeda. By the time Al Qaeda announced that it was distancing itself from the ISIL in February, the ISIL was already effectively independent of Al Qaeda. That is part of the reason why the article uses the 2014 date. The 2006 and 2013 dates go in the war faction infobox. Toolen (talk) 18:41, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

I just don't see the events on 3 January 2014 matching the label of Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant declared. So I would suggest either that event be renamed to something else, or it be deleted entirely and we just have the Caliphate declaration, which is much more of a definitive and official date in terms of being an undeclared state. Gazkthul (talk) 03:22, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Gazkthul. Encylopaedias record events, they don't interpret them. History books interpret events, and the finer points listed by other editors above are to do with interpretation and history-writing, not writing an encyclopaedia. The plain event here is the audio message by Al-Baghdadi in April 2013 announcing the establishment of an Islamic state. Wikipedia should record that event and leave it to historians to quibble about when it actually became an Islamic state. --P123ct1 (talk) 21:33, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

New US-ally: Qassem Soleimani

Please add: The Iranian commander Qassem Soleimani, commander of the elite Revolutionary Guard's Quds Force, has been in the Iraqi city of Amerli, to work with the United States to push back militants from the Islamic State (IS). According to The Los Angeles Times, which reported that Amerli was the first town to successfully withstand an ISIS invasion, it was secured thanks to "an unusual partnership of Iraqi and Kurdish soldiers, Iranian-backed Shiite militias and U.S. warplanes". The US acted as a force multiplier for a number of Iranian-backed arm groups — at the same time that the head of the Revolutionary Guard's foreign operations was present on the battlefield.

Merci, --91.10.32.90 (talk) 07:28, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

1 revert per 24 hours - Reminder to new editors contributing to this article

In accordance with a July 2013 motion and community consensus on August 2013, all editors of this article are restricted to 1 revert per 24 hours when reverting logged-in users. Violations of this restriction will lead to blocks or other sanctions. Sanctions may include blocks for up to one year, page bans or topic bans. Worldedixor (talk) 09:19, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Change the name of the “Analysis” section

“Analysis” is too vague and many parts of the article rely on an analysis. The content of this section mostly describes the recent growth of ISIS. Perhaps rename this section “Growth and development” (can someone think of a better title?) and incorporate “Territorial claims” into it. Jason from nyc (talk) 15:43, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

I would recommend incorporating an expanded section on the Syrian government's role in creating ISIS into that and removing the section on relations with Syria. Could also mention Assad's extensive involvement in supporting al Qaeda in Iraq to kill American troops.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 15:52, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Equipment

I notice we now have 2 tables in the Equipment section, one for 'Assault rifles' and one for 'Armored fighting vehicles', complete with large photos of each type of weapon. The source appears to be some sort of rightwing blog. Is any of that necessary or adding anything that isn't already covered in the equipment section? Gazkthul (talk) 06:40, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

These pictures add very little of value to the article. --P123ct1 (talk) 13:31, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Agree with P123ct1. Pictures add wp:undue weight to equipment section.~Technophant (talk) 22:14, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

I, too, agree—honestly, I feel the tables themselves are pretty unneeded. A prose description of some of the equipment used would be sufficient; it need not be exhaustive nor laid out with photos and lots of details. Suomichris (talk) 22:26, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Oh man, just looked at the source used for those tables—yeah, all of that should definitely go. Suomichris (talk) 22:38, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

I just looked at the source again, and it doesn't even claim that these are weapons that ISIS has. It says "This is by no means meant to be an exhaustive and comprehensive list of weapon systems being used by ISIS, et al., but rather a list of some of the more commonly used weapons, and few rare ones as well." Given this, I've removed the tables completely. Suomichris (talk) 23:31, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

New wilayah

IS diclared a new wilayah in parts of Syrian Deir ez Zor (AL-Khair wilayah) and Iraqi Anbar. The new wilayah is named Furat Wilayah. the biggest cities are Al-Qa'im (Syrian) and Al-Qa'im (Iraqi). The reson of establishing this new wilayah is to Show the opposition to Sykes-Picot Agreement3bdulelah (talk) 17:49, 5 September 2014 (UTC) http://www.france24.com/ar/20140830-%D8%AA%D9%86%D8%B8%D9%8A%D9%85-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AF%D9%88%D9%84%D8%A9-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A5%D8%B3%D9%84%D8%A7%D9%85%D9%8A%D8%A9-%D8%AE%D9%84%D8%A7%D9%81%D8%A9-%D8%A5%D8%B9%D9%84%D8%A7%D9%86-%D9%88%D9%84%D8%A7%D9%8A%D8%A9-%D8%A5%D8%B1%D9%87%D8%A7%D8%A8/

I've added the new wilayah, I used the above source as I couldn't find any English language ones with the same level of detail. Gazkthul (talk) 03:06, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

2nd American journalist dead/murdered/beheaded

NPR broke in with breaking news that the terrorist organization that calls itself the I.S. has beheaded the other American journalist they held captive and released a video thereof. Sad. I'm sure the article will be updated shortly.HammerFilmFan (talk) 17:35, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Currently the text says the Aug. 19 'IS' video of James Foley's murder "promised that a second captured US journalist, Steven Sotloff, would be killed next if the airstrikes continued."

According to Reuters, AP, BBC and The New York Times, 'IS' on Sept. 2 issued a similar video purporting to show the murder of Sotloff. The article should be updated immediately. Sca (talk) 21:26, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

The article Steven Joel Sotloff has been updated. What nomenclature are we using to link to this article? Is [[Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant|Islamic State]] (IS/ISIS) the best way? We need to decide here so links to this page can be standardized or there's going to be issues like this. ~Technophant (talk) 00:04, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Too many cooks.... Sca (talk) 01:23, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

The link to the video of the beheading is faulty. It doesn't link to that. I couldn't find any video of it, as youtube censors everything. Please adjust it if you can.Teoporta (talk) 04:32, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Archive.org is the best place to find videos. here is video with German subtitiles.~Technophant (talk) 03:59, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Levant region

File:Levant (orthographic projection).png

From Wikipedia:

"The Levant (/ləˈvænt/), also known as the Eastern Mediterranean, is a geographic and cultural region consisting of the "eastern Mediterranean littoral between Anatolia and Egypt". The Levant today consists of the island of Cyprus, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Palestine, and part of southern Turkey (the former Aleppo Vilayet)."

It Wikipedia says Iraq is sometimes included. --P123ct1 (talk) 15:09, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Very true, but you can't use Wikipedia as a source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.23.134.189 (talk) 16:15, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

That was not intended. It was general guidance for editors. --P123ct1 (talk) 16:19, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Iraq is not part of the Levant. Who told you so? Worldedixor (talk) 16:47, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

I think what P123ct1 means is that the article Levant has a map where the legend for the medium green says "Countries and regions sometimes included in the Levant region. (Iraq and Sinai)". ~Technophant (talk) 17:42, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

This map is misrepresented. Sinai and Egypt are also not part of the Levant. This is one of the many misunderstood facts that I see regularly in Wikipedia because of certain editors Wikipedia-wide who can't understand articles that they're editing. When I have some time, I do what I can but when I see uninformed opposition, I just let it be.Worldedixor (talk) 18:09, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

To start with, use the Arabic term which is apparently "shaam" or the like. Wiktionary says it means Damascus or "Greater Syria". There's clearly a lot of room to figure out what they actually mean; I wouldn't be surprised (but have no idea) if the goal was simply to avoid using a word that refers to borders drawn by European powers. Wnt (talk) 22:29, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Note: we have an article on Greater Syria, to which I've added an old map of Bilad al-Sham for comparison. Wnt (talk) 07:10, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Successor or name change?

The lede claims that ISIS is the "successor" to ISI, but the text then says ISI changed its name after it started spilling over into Syria. We should nail down this point, because I feel like there is something of a misunderstanding in some sources (or is it?) that treat this as a "new group" that just materialized somehow, rather than recognizing that this is the same old Iraq resistance, same old beheading videos, nothing much changed except Syria has been vulnerable. Wnt (talk) 23:25, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Successor to Tawhid wal Jihad and Al Qaeda in Iraq would be fair, as in both cases it combined with other groups into a new group. However as you say the ISI simply expanded into Syria when the opportunity arose, it retained the same flag, media outlet, leadership when doing so. Gazkthul (talk) 04:44, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Metamorphosing is a better way of putting it than materialising! It is the same core group, which particularly in its early days combined with other groups at various stages, each time adopting a new name, and even when it became a stable entity continued to change its name. It is confusing at first, so perhaps there should be a sentence in the Lead making this crystal clear. I agree that the word "successor" is slightly misleading. The "Name & name changes" section makes these changes pretty clear I would have thought, though, and that comes straight after the Lead. --P123ct1 (talk) 02:49, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Agree with User:P123ct1.~Technophant (talk) 10:59, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

I think there is quite a problem with saying in the Lead that ISIS is the successor to Tanzim Qaidat al-Jihad fi Bilad al-Rafidayn (or Tawḥīd wa-al-Jihād, for that matter), and then saying in "Name & name changes" that ISIS began as Jamāʻat al-Tawḥīd wa-al-Jihād which then became Tanzim Qaidat. I don't think the word "successor" should be used at all, as all three are the same group but in different forms. --P123ct1 (talk) 18:21, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Revision deleted material

As WP:Oversight has been involved in this issue I've followed up by revision deleting a sentence added by I believe Technophant and the name in the section above. An article about this person has been deleted by someone on the Oversight team. Just to be sure my actions are correct I'll contact the appropriate people. As this was dealt with by people above my pay grade I am asking editors here not to try and restore it. Please folks. If I'm told I was wrong I will of course replace it. Note that 'NO other text was removed, although the history of who did what is inaccessible. Dougweller (talk) 12:37, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

I did not create or add anything to that sentence. --P123ct1 (talk) 14:02, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Oversight has stepped in and Oversighted the material I rev/del'd. The difference is that what I did could still be viewed by Administrators, but Oversight can suppress so that even Admins can't view the material. The family has requested that this person's name not be mentioned in the media, which makes this a BLP issue. We need to be very careful and remember that BLP applies to hostages and indeed to anyone executed as a hostage for 2 years after their death. Dougweller (talk) 13:41, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

The revdelete was done by Nyttend. The discussion about this has been placed on User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#Section_removed. Please don't add the name of the next hostage victim mentioned at the end of the Steven Sotloff video until this issue is resolved.~Technophant (talk) 13:45, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Not this rev/del however, I did the ones on the article and here. Oversight was also done with Nyttend's revdels. Dougweller (talk) 13:56, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

There's a related discussions going on regarding this matter at Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Archive 115#Guideline_for_crime_victims_of_world_wide_significance and Talk:Steven Sotloff.~Technophant (talk) 19:32, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

New section:Legacy/Influence/External support?

ISIS has clearly sent waves across the world, either positive or negative. Is it not right to have Legacy/Influence/External support sections, under which we can describe the support that it received among youth Muslims in UK, Europe,India and in Islamic countries. Also, we can describe pamphlet distribution supporting ISIS in UK[11] and Pakistan [12]. - Vatsan34 (talk) 14:40, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Agree, and not only youth support. This and this, for example, shows how much international support they are getting through recruitment. ISIS fighters are being widely reported as representing 81 nations now, not to mention the massive increase in their numbers since June this year, from an estimated 4,000 in Iraq in June to up to 100,000 in Iraq and Syria now, according to Iraqi observers. (See Lead and footnotes in infobox.) Even ex-Iraqi Army soldiers are joining ISIS now, apparently. --P123ct1 (talk) 15:41, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

I had been planning on creating a subsection giving more detail on their declaration of a Caliphate, and include the groups and individuals that have expressed support or pledged allegiance. At present the article really only gives info on those (albeit the vast majority) who have rejected the claim. Gazkthul (talk) 23:22, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Ideology and beliefs

It should be clearly stated at the top of the article that they believe in Sunni Islam. The end of the first sentence should be changed from: "is a jihadist group in the Middle East." to: "is a jihadist group in the Middle East that believes in Sunni Islam."

Now added to Lead and second infobox. --P123ct1 (talk) 17:42, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

I hope this is correct. There is no mention of "Sunni" in the "Ideology and beliefs" section either. --P123ct1 (talk) 18:00, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

I think adding "that believes in Sunni Islam" would be offensive to true Sunni Moslems. IS is using Islam as a whole as a pretext to commit the most evil and heinous crimes against humanity. Worldedixor (talk) 18:59, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

The way it is now is correct. Yes, they are a "Sunni" group in the sense that their pretext religion is Sunni.Worldedixor (talk) 21:06, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

@Worldedixor and P123ct1: I Agree with Worldedixor, they killed even sunni scholars and showed that they are misusing the name of Islam to perform their brutal actions. Yes, they are a "Sunni" group in the sense that their pretext religion is Sunni. Take a look at this. Mhhossein (talk) 03:13, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Someone has reverted "Sunni" and put "Kharijite (Sunni perspective)" in the second infobox, without giving any reason for it, though they could be referring to the fact that there is controversy over what their religion is. I have reverted back to "Sunni Islamism" and said refer to the Talk page. This will probably need to be discussed so consensus can be reached. In the "Ideology and belief" section there is no mention of "Sunni", and whether they are Kharijites (who are neither Sunni nor Shia) is a matter of opinion, as it states there. ISIS probably are using their religion as a pretext for this conflict (as in so many religious wars in history), but the article must state "Sunni" here, I think, and in the "Ideology and beliefs" section as well. I have contacted the editor who drew up this section. --P123ct1 (talk) 13:21, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Have put "Sunni" in the "Ideology and beliefs" section, as no-one wants to discuss this further. --P123ct1 (talk) 20:36, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Well, its very clear that their Ideology is Kharijtes from all perspectives, and they are considered to be Kharijtes by the vast majority [13], [14] . Also, its completely vague who is considering them as Sunni with no supportive resources. Therefore, unless there is something telling the opposite, I strongly believe the phrase Sunni Muslim shouldn’t be there as per Wikipedia procedures and guidelines. Ahmad2099 (talk) 19:04, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Ahmad 2009 had again reverted "Sunni" back to "Kharijite" and I reverted it back to "Sunni Islamism", as I know this is quite a controversial point. Earlier discussion on the Talk page about this is here. --P123ct1 (talk) 22:51, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

In the interests of consensus, I have notified Mhhossein and Worldedixor of this. Perhaps Gazkthul and Seyyed could look at it as well. --P123ct1 (talk) 23:16, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Re your message on my talk page, P123ct1, I don't have much time, but Ahmad2099 has brought a very informed and advanced insight that accurately describes the ideology and beliefs of the Islamic State that uses Sunni Islam as a pretext to commit all crimes that are not permitted by Islam, and the term Khawarij (also known as Kharijites) is accurate. The two Arabic sources he provided, support this. Now, the discussion is much more elaborate and when I get time, I may be able to contribute more. Worldedixor (talk) 23:47, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

I will also trust Ahmad2099's appropriately sourced research and insight and give support, in principle, to Ahmad2099's edit especially that the Kharijites declare other Muslims to be unbelievers and therefore deem them worthy of death. I may change position based on other informed and logical arguments. Worldedixor (talk) 23:52, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

I strongly oppose putting Kharijite as their ideology. Khawarij is being used as a general pejorative term by their opponents, basically saying that IS are extremists and outside the Muslim community. 1) The Kharijites revolted against and killed Ali, while the Islamic State considers Ali to have been one of the Rightly Guided Caliphs.[15] 2) IS base many of their actions on those taken in wartime by Abu Bakr ,[16] who was Caliph before the Kharijites even existed. 3) Islamic State follow the same ideology/methodology as Al Qaeda, AQAP, AQIM, Al Shabab and other Jihadist groups. If the first are Kharajite, then all the other ones would have to be also. 4) They follow the Sunni Hanbali school of jurisprudence, and come out of the tradition of Sunni scholars such as Ibn Taymiyyah and Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab.[17][18] 5) Abu Mohammad al-Adnani, the official spokesman of the Islamic State, has explicitly denied the group are Kharajites: "I swear by Allah we aren’t Kharijites."[19] Gazkthul (talk) 02:34, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Compelling insightful arguments by Gazkthul. To Ahmad2099 or anyone else insightful, please support or rebut their arguments. Worldedixor (talk) 03:22, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

It's hard to find an objective reliable source, but I found one that supports Gazkthul's arguments "And so it was that after the Battle of Siffin, the Khawarij became yet another political group to oppose the Islamic state" [20] Worldedixor (talk) 03:54, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

OK, I am leaning now to support Gazkthul's insightful arguments. This is why: In addition to what Gazkthul asserted, a. Al Khawarij is a sect that rebelled against Imam Ali Ibn Abi Talib after Abdel Rahman Bin Moljim killed him. b. Al-Baghdadi allegedly claims to be a decedent of Imam Ali Ibn Abi Talib. I have not found objective reliable sources to support point b. But if it's true, then that settles it. We need to include a reliable source that says that the Islamic State are using Sunni Islam as a pretext for there crimes which is a common knowledge, and that would be the end. However, there are some powerful Saudi fatwas that calls them neo-Khawarij, and that needs to be considered. Also to be considered is Wahabism and/or Salafism which may be the most accurate description if we dismiss their crimes. Worldedixor (talk) 04:25, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

First of all, consider that we are talking about two different issues. Kharejites and sunni Islam are not things to be compared. As we know, Al Khawarij were rebels and were against other muslims. At the same time, it does not mean they are not following sunni Islam. In other words we can say that, they are sunni muslims who have put steps beyond the religion boundaries and can be called "mutant generation of sunni muslims". Using same arguments as User:Gazkthul they are sunni muslims. But, what kind of sunni muslims are they? Kahrejites! We should not forget that Kharejites of Ali ibn abi taleb's era were muslims who separated Ali's army after Battle of Siffin, but still used to be considered as muslim because of believing in Allah. Now after thousands of years, a new generation of them which stem from sunni Islam (as it appears) has risen against others claiming to be the only one who deserves to rule the Islamic world. So considering the sect they are sunni but considering the ideology and beliefs they are Kharejites. Mhhossein (talk) 06:21, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

I also think that Kharejite is a label used in a pejorative sense by critics of ISIS (as pointed about above) just as Mutazilite is often used as a pejorative used by some Muslims to apply to other Muslims that follow more rationalistic or secular strains of Islam. Neither is usually self-applied (pointed out above) nor is the actual historical movement by those names used as a foundational source by the groups so labeled (pointed out above). It is not unusual for adherents to question the legitimacy of other adherents. When I was a little boy the nuns would say that Lutherans were heretics. This would not be in an info box on Lutheranism in an encyclopedia ... I hope! Sunni is more general (pointed out above) and the vast majority of sources leave it at that. Jason from nyc (talk) 12:03, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Based on analytic viewpoint I agree with Ahmad2099 that this group has too many similarities with Kharejites. We can consider the Kharejites as the first ones who promote Salafist jihadism. Please read these works to understand what I mean:

[21], [22], [23]. However, I think these are not sufficient to adding Kharejite in the infobox.--Seyyed(t-c) 08:41, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Amnesty report on ethnic cleansing

So far the article does not mention "ethnic cleansing". Amnesty International's reports that it is ethnic cleansing on history scale and that they operate on racist grounds, persecuting non-Arabs and non-Sunnis. The report has been featured in several news outlets: BBC, Independent, CBC etc. This could be worked on. --Pudeo' 16:04, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

I Agree and I have added a blurb. Worldedixor (talk) 22:46, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Shouldn't this and the UN's statement on war crimes go into the "Human rights abuses" section? --P123ct1 (talk) 18:51, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I think they should be in the lead as well as the "Human rights abuses" section. Worldedixor (talk) 22:45, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps this summary should go into the Lead (without footnotes as we are trying to cut them down in the Lead), "The United Nations and Amnesty International have accused the Islamic State of human rights abuse", with those two sentences with their footnotes moved to that section. Would that be a good idea? --P123ct1 (talk) 07:05, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Copied to "Human rights abuses" section. Summary needed for Lead, suggested above. --P123ct1 (talk) 10:46, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

 Done Have replaced the last sentence in the Lead with a summary statement, without footnotes. The footnotes have already been transferred to the "Human Rights Abuse" section. The Lead now uses "IS" in the first para and "ISIS" in the others. A decision will have to made on which name to use in the Lead; it cannot have both. --P123ct1 (talk) 15:00, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Turkey: Both an ally and an opponent??

Turkey is listed in the infobox both as an ally and an opponent! It can't be both at the same time!Mondolkiri1 (talk) 17:21, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

It's been removed from the allies. Someone has also added Qatar and Saudi Arabia to the allies too. Looks like someone has an agenda, or some dices to roll. Supersaiyen312 (talk) 02:25, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Saudi Arabia's government has designated ISIS as a terrorist organisation, but turns a blind eye to ISIS supporters in the kingdom. Plainly some editors don't bother to read the article (let alone Talk page discussion) to inform themselves before editing. That information about Saudi Arabia's designation is in the first para of the Lead, smh. --P123ct1 (talk) 14:32, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes I have removed it. Saudi Arabia and Qatar are known to provide support to fundamentalist groups but that doesn't mean they provide support to ISIS. I don't know why people are using "individuals in those countries funded ISIS" to equate that to the Saudi government. Qatar funds IF & FSA, both of which are enemies of ISIS. — ^talk § _Arsenic99_ 19:49, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

There is an interesting article here on the relationship between Saudi Arabia and ISIS by the respected and experienced Middle East correspondent Patrick Cockburn. There is an interesting analysis by him on the rise of the Islamic State and its relationship with Saudi Arabia and Syria on YouTube here as well. --P123ct1 (talk) 21:45, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

New section: Strategy and tactics?

There is an interesting Wikipedia article on the Management of Savagery, a kind of terrorist's or jihadist's manual (a bit like Machiavelli's "The Prince" for tyrants), which illustrates how the extreme and seemingly mindless violence of ISIS/IS is calculated and part of their long-term strategy. As one of the footnotes to it appears this article, which describes this as well. Should there be a specific section on their strategy? Obviously the goal is the widening of the caliphate, but the means to that end perhaps warrants description. This has become more than a conflict and should be treated more as war now, I think, especially as the West is slowly albeit reluctantly being drawn into it. --P123ct1 (talk) 16:15, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Interesting. "Strategy and tactics" could be a subsection to the Analysis section. I would support a "See also" link to Management of Savagery. ~Technophant (talk) 19:54, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't think anyone reading that article would disagree with having a "See also" link to it. --P123ct1 (talk) 23:53, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Have added link to Management of Savagery in "See also" section. I do not mind being reverted if editors think this is inappropriate. --P123ct1 (talk) 08:44, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

P123ct1, I think you've accidently put the page under external links rather than see also. Gazkthul (talk) 23:39, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

I did. Sorry. Rectified. --P123ct1 (talk) 01:27, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Regional Map

I think a simple map of the region showing the various countries and their borders (Iraq, Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Iran) with the main cities that are mentioned in this conflict would be of great help to readers. The Lead is crowded already, but I think a small infobox (that could be expanded) showing this would be invaluable. In any discussion of this conflict in the media, this is always done. Why not in Wikipedia? I don't think a wikilink for each city or province is enough; something visual is instantly informative. The same map could be usefully placed at the head of the new timeline article as well. The current maps showing the territorial gains in Syria and Iraq are very difficult to interpret without the borders being shown. --P123ct1 (talk) 07:03, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Something like this is worth many words. --P123ct1 (talk) 18:58, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Concern about a source

In the second paragraph under "Ideology and beliefs", one of the citations is from one Kevin Barrett ("Is ISIL really 'Sunni'? Not at all"). However, it's pretty clear that Barrett is far from neutral. Some of his other pieces at Press TV have titles like "Zionist Settlers Dig Israel's Grave" and "Child-killing sociopaths of Israel".

I was tempted to simply remove the reference, as most of the claims in the sentence appear to be supported by the other sources. However, I can't find any mention of Zaid Hamid in any of the other English-language sources; it seems to appear only in the Barrett source, of the English sources.

Could someone who can read Arabic check the two Arabic-language sources and see if they mention Zaid Hamid? The sentence in full currently reads:

However, there are some Sunni commentators, Zaid Hamid, for example, and even Salafi and jihadi muftis such as Adnan al-Aroor and Abu Basir al-Tartusi, who say that ISIS and related terrorist groups are not Sunnis, but modern-day Kharijite heretics serving an imperial anti-Islamic agenda."

Cheers! Suomichris (talk) 20:55, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Meh, just did a find in both Arabic sources for both Zaid (زید) and Hamid (حامد) and no dice—I'm removing the source along with Hamid's name. Suomichris (talk) 21:20, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't agree with your removal of "heretics" after "Kharijite". Of course it is redundant as you say in your edit summary, but for the general reader with no background on this subject I think it adds something for them. We have to think of the article's general readers at all times, IMO - after all, Wikipedia's articles are written for them and not for those in the know on a subject. I agree with your other change, however. --P123ct1 (talk) 09:26, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

You know, you're right—we probably should have a description of what a Kharijite is. However, I don't think it should be "heretic", which is an inherently biased term (a Sunni would say a Kharajite is a heretic, a Kharajite would say a Sunni is). What if we stay closer to the meaning of the Arabic and do something like: "...say that ISIS and related terrorist groups are not Sunnis, but modern-day Kharijites—Muslims who have stepped outside the mainstream of Islam—serving an imperial anti-Islamic agenda."

Would that work for you/other editors? If so, I can make the edit so no one else has to use their one revert on this. Cheers, Suomichris (talk) 16:38, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Agree Hadn't thought about the WP:NPOV aspect, and should have done, as I'm always banging on about it. --P123ct1 (talk) 17:54, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Updated! I'm working on restructuring/rewriting this section a bit, so might post some other suggestions here on Talk in the coming days. My main objection is that the current section says that ISIS are Sunni, then that they're Salafi, then that maybe they aren't Sunni after all. I think it could be written in a way that makes their ideology more clear to someone not familiar with the various groups. Suomichris (talk) 22:23, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Have just looked at the Wiki article on Salafis, where it mentions links to Wahhabism. Could you say something about Wahhabism and ISIS as well, please, as that goes in and out of the infobox under "Ideology" a lot as well. Could you also look at earlier Talk page discussions on the "Ideology and beliefs" section here . .? You will get an idea of what other editors' views are on ISIS's religion. It would be good to get a final consensus on what to put under "Ideology" in the infobox and in this section. --P123ct1 (talk) 23:37, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

PS You've set yourself a hard task, I think! --P123ct1 (talk) 23:45, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Suomichris, see also Brangifer's useful link to an article on Wahhabism and ISIS here. --P123ct1 (talk) 20:37, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Hah, yeah, I reckon I have my work cut out for me—thanks for the sources, though, as well as pointing me to previous discussion. Will definitely consult before I start reworking! Suomichris (talk) 16:15, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

A bit late to the party, but we shouldn't be using Press TV or Kevin Barrett at all. See for instance [24] - neoconservative Zionists behind 9/11!. Dougweller (talk) 16:31, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Agreed—I double-checked and it doesn't look like Barrett is cited elsewhere in the article. Suomichris (talk) 23:25, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Training of ISIS

I have removed the sentence The IBT reported: "As per several corroborated reports, hundreds of ISIS militia were indeed trained by US instructors for covert operations to destabilize Syrian President Bashar al-Assad's government, though the training was strictly for Syria." The source says reports have now surfaced that way back in 2012, the US Army had trained members of the same terrorist group in Jordan However the rest of the article refers only to training given to members of the FSA, not Islamic State. It's possible that some of these men would later defect to IS, but this is not stated in the article, and the sentence is WP:Fringe as written. Gazkthul (talk) 00:28, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

'House of blood'

Zeid Ra'ad al Hussein of Jordan, newly appointed UN high commissioner for human rights, on Sept. 8 urged world leaders to take action against 'IS' , which he said aims to create "a harsh, mean-spirited, house of blood." Sca (talk) 13:22, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

 Done Added to "Human rights abuses" section. --P123ct1 (talk) 10:50, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

QSIS

In § Name and name changes, this sentence is flagged for "importance?"

In late August 2014, a leading Islamic authority Dar al-Ifta al-Misriyyah advised Muslims to stop calling the group "Islamic State" and instead refer to it as "Al-Qaeda Separatists in Iraq and Syria" or "QSIS", due to the militant group's un-Islamic character.

With so many names in use for this group, especially over time, we should at least provide this much help for somebody who's seen mention of this name. I'm removing the flag. Thnidu (talk) 19:51, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

I support you in that. I think it is of importance, as indicative of the backlash that is happening now generally among many Muslims, which I am surprised wasn't more evident much earlier. --P123ct1 (talk) 23:12, 6 September 2014 (UTC

The statement represents the views of the military government in Egypt, which is less concerned about events in Iraq than the need to justify its suppression of the Muslim Brotherhood. Clodhopper Deluxe (talk) 01:27, 7 September 2014 (UTC) Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Kauffner

I do agree that this should be included, but I'm not sure it belongs in the "Name and name change" section, since these are, ostensibly, official names used by ISIS. Suomichris (talk) 23:35, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Since there is a great deal of news and discussion about this entity under many names both official and otherwise (quoting from the article)—

• The name is abbreviated as ISIS or alternately ISIL.
• ISIS was also known as al-Dawlah ("the State"), or al-Dawlat al-Islāmīyah ("the Islamic State").
• ISIS's detractors, particularly in Syria, refer to the group as "Da'ish" or "Daesh", (داعش), a term that is based on an acronym formed from the letters of the name in Arabic, al-Dawla al-Islamiya fi Iraq wa ash-Sham.
• On 14 May 2014, the United States Department of State announced its decision to use "Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant" (ISIL) as the group's primary name.[96] The debate over which acronym should be used to designate the group, ISIL or ISIS, has been discussed by several commentators.

—we should not leave it up to the reader to figure out whether or not the group officially uses or accepts the name, or ever did so, in order to find the name. At present we list them chronologically in one section, each with its provenance and status. We should keep it this way. I have added an alphabetical list of names as a subsection, with links to their first mentions in the section.

--Thnidu (talk) 16:57, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

That alphabetical list was a very good idea. --P123ct1 (talk) 11:54, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

US State Department - Anti ISIS Twitter, Videos etc.

It seems that the US Department of State has set up a Twitter account [25] and YouTube channel [26] with which they are apparently trying to dissuade foreign ISIS recruits. I believe that the reception so far has been mixed. [27], [28], [29], [30].

What do you guys think about adding this info in this article?Myopia123 (talk) 17:19, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I believe that an appropriately sourced blurb could be added. Worldedixor (talk) 22:31, 10 September 2014 (UTC)