Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard/Archive 38
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Archive 35 | Archive 36 | Archive 37 | Archive 38 | Archive 39 | Archive 40 | → | Archive 45 |
Berber people
![]() | No discussion for four days. Guy Macon (talk) 23:56, 15 July 2012 (UTC) |
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Filed by Dzlinker on 11:26, 11 July 2012 (UTC).
Dispute overview
Some users are opposing the proved fact that some well known people are of berber descent (Augustinus, Apuleuis..). Users involved
Jayjg, RobertMfromLI and Omar-toons are not cooperative about this, they just revert with the repeated "no consensus" tag, although more and more arguments were given.
Yes.
Resolving the dispute
Yeh! like 100 times.
Help to decide wether it should change or still the same Dzlinker (talk) 11:26, 11 July 2012 (UTC) Berber people discussionDiscussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.
Hello everyone, I'm Mr. Stradivarius, a volunteer here at the dispute resolution noticeboard. This doesn't give me any special power or privileges - I am just here as a neutral third party to try and help you all to work things out. Actually, if it's all right with all of you, I'd like to try a different approach with this dispute than the one we usually use at this noticeboard. We have been talking about getting editors involved in disputes to leave a short statement here, rather than diving straight into discussion. (We have had a few problems where editors use the noticeboard as an extension of the talk page, creating large amounts of discussion before any neutral third parties get involved.) Please understand that the following is only a request, and not a requirement in any way, and you should feel entirely free to ignore it if you so choose. So, here goes: if possible, I would like all of the involved editors to leave a short statement below about the dispute. Please try and keep it below 400 words. Your statement can cover any/all of the following:
If you like, you can include a couple of diffs if you think that would be appropriate. To Dzlinker - you have already provided a summary of the dispute, so you don't have to add a new statement if you don't want to. But also, your overview was very short, so if you do want to include a statement, then feel free. To the others, if you decide to include a statement, then thank you very much for your cooperation. If you're all ok with doing things this way, we will start the dispute resolution process proper when we have collected everyone's statement, or after a set period of time has passed. (Maybe three days?) Let me know if you have any questions about any of this. Best regards — Mr. Stradivarius (have a chat) 13:06, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
Filer, have you listed any reliable sources to indicate that your additions are Berber?Curb Chain (talk) 23:17, 11 July 2012 (UTC) Statement by Amazigh-cause Apuleius is Berber. He said that he is half Numidian half geltulian. Numidians and Getulians were Berber groups. Semptimus is not prooved to be Berber. Augustine is disputed among scholars. He was romanized and confused the Libyans/Numidians with the Phoenicians. Amazigh-cause (talk) 14:46, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
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Colonial Athletic Association Football members
![]() | This can not be dealt with properly unless it is filed properly.Curb Chain (talk) 01:41, 19 July 2012 (UTC) |
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Looks like I'm in a bit of a pickle with User:Superman7515. I was attempting to complete the football members on the page timeline, but Superman7515 pointed out the all-sports conference is a separate non-profit entity to the football only members with separate 990's. Superman7515 is insisting on a separate page for the football conference similar to the set up of the Missouri Valley Conference and the Missouri Valley Football Conference. There are differences. The Missouri Valley set up not only separates the business end (legal forms, etc), but also separates the marketing end by having separate web pages and separate copyright notices listed on the web pages. The Colonial Athletic Association only lists the separate legal filings (see Talk:Colonial Athletic Association. All the marketing, including the web site for the conference lists them as merged entities, and lists the football members as associate members. Any history like this with other conferences? Anyone know how to resolve? I'm OK with either a separate football conference page or one with all the sports team info, Superman 7515 evidently is not.........Seems a little bit of unnecessary duplication on the face of things if we go with separate pages....Pvmoutside (talk) 18:17, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
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Nuclear fuel cycle
![]() | Stale or resolved. — TransporterMan (TALK) 16:57, 23 July 2012 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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Filed by Jpritikin on 08:22, 12 July 2012 (UTC).
Dispute overview
Talk:Nuclear fuel cycle#It's not a cycle Users involved
NPguy never tried to improve my summary. He only reverts it in total. I have repeatedly revised to try to meet his objections.
Yes.
Resolving the dispute
I have discussed this issue on the talk page.
Not sure Jpritikin (talk) 08:22, 12 July 2012 (UTC) Nuclear fuel cycle discussionDiscussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.
I am a regular volunteer here at DRN. I'm afraid that I agree with NPguy on this one, point by point, in his comments at the article talk page, including the non-usability of the Caldicott Twitter post currently included in the article. A source which appears to be reliable and which says exactly what you are trying to say can, however, be found here and it appears there are any number more which can be found through this search. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 18:12, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
If there is no response, this thread will be closed 24 hours after this time: July 16, 2012 at 13:47 (UTC) Reason: Appears to be resolved. — TransporterMan (TALK) 13:47, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
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General Welfare clause
![]() | Stale or resolved. — TransporterMan (TALK) 16:59, 23 July 2012 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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Filed by Foofighter20x on 05:20, 13 July 2012 (UTC).
Dispute overview
At the beginning, the article text was factually correct, though the section in dispute was poorly cited (an error I've corrected). It appears the crux of the dispute is that editor Esplainin2do did not or does not understand the context of stating that the GWC in the U.S. Const. does not confer upon the federal government of the U.S. a general police power. This is widely-held consensus among constitutional historians and lawyers. Users involved
It appears Esplainin2do intends to impose a hyper-narrow view onto the article in hopes of what I'm not sure. However, Esplainin2do's hyper-narrow interpretation is not entirely correct, as the secondary source cites I've inserted demonstrate. Esplainin2do chooses to view those sources as cherry-picked evidence, opting to rely upon primary sources instead, which I'm not sure conforms to WP:OR. Outside of that, Esplainin2do is being belligerent, antagonistic, and accusatory; put another way, I feel like I'm being trolled. I've tried to get Esplainin2do to go back to the status quo ante and build consensus, but time and again he's refused. Trying to work with him on this has not yielded fruit.
Yes.
Resolving the dispute
Discussion on the talk page has not worked. I've even requested assistance from two other editors, but their engagement was highly transitory.
Impose order. Provide guidance. Foofighter20x (talk) 05:20, 13 July 2012 (UTC) General Welfare clause discussionDiscussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.
If there is no response, this thread will be closed 24 hours after this time: July 20, 2012 at 13:19 (UTC) Reason: Appears to be stale or resolved. — TransporterMan (TALK) 13:19, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
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Mylo Xyloto
![]() | No talk page discussion. — TransporterMan (TALK) 17:09, 23 July 2012 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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Filed by Victor Lopes on 21:10, 18 July 2012 (UTC).
Dispute overview
A few days ago, I added a review from the Brazilian edition of Rolling Stone at the Mylo Xyloto album article. However, the editor mentioned below removed it, saying it was "pointless and stupid". I've added it back, but he kept removing it, stating also that the source wasn't notable (even though it is the Brazilian edition of one of the most important music publications of the world) and also said there was no need for it since there was already a review from the main Rolling Stone magazine (although the reviewers and the opinions were different). Some IPs also seemed to disagree with the content I was trying to add. Users involved
Yes.
Resolving the dispute
After I realized I was edit warring, I created a section at the article's talk page and informed the user about it, but neither him nor other users have shown any interest in discussing the matter in the past three days.
I just want someone to clarify if adding more reviews in a two-paragraph critical reception section is wrong, even if written in another language. There is nothing here that suggests I shouldn't add that content only because there are already other reviews, and I assume there's nothing to discuss regarding the notability or the verifiability of the source. Even though it is said in the end of that project page that English sources are preferred, I've only added that material because it was saying something quite different from the other ones. I know few people may understand it, but I'd like editors to assume that I'm editing in good faith, that is, I'm adding correctly translated material written in my mother language. Victão Lopes I hear you... 21:10, 18 July 2012 (UTC) Mylo Xyloto discussionDiscussion about the issues listed above takes place here. Remember to keep your comments calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.
I am a regular volunteer here at DRN. I hate to be so cynical, but I doubt that this request will do much good. It should, actually, be closed because there has been no discussion on the article talk page, which is generally required before requesting content dispute resolution (and I may still do so). The bigger problem is that Jak Fisher has almost a thousand edits here at Wikipedia and has never, ever, posted to a talk page or anywhere else on WP other than in articles and has only occasionally even given edit summaries. There is no set Wikipedia procedure to address that situation. You might make a request for page protection at WP:RPP or complain about him for continually reverting without edit summaries or discussion at WP:AN. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 01:07, 20 July 2012 (UTC) PS: While I don't think that your proposed edit is either particularly useful or particularly objectionable (but I'm no expert on which reviews are appropriate for inclusion and which not), Wikipedia rules say that when an edit is objected to that it is the obligation of the proposing editor to either not make the edit or to obtain consensus for the addition (see this policy. You might want to try an request for comments to get consensus for inclusion of your edit. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 02:15, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
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Hart of Dixie Season Splitting, List of Episodes
![]() | Discussion still ongoing at Talk:List of Hart of Dixie episodes; bring it back here if that fails. - Jorgath (talk) (contribs) 21:26, 23 July 2012 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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Filed by B.Davis2003 on 07:46, 23 July 2012 (UTC).
Dispute overview
Other users do not think it is appropriate to split up the article in seasons. Have "claimed" that articles for TV shows should only be split after 4 seasons..... I feel that by splitting up the article it provides the reader with more understanding about the season and gives them extra information of features such as DVD Details. Users involved
Yes.
Resolving the dispute
Talk page of List of Episodes
Provide an opinion and explanation and resolution. B.Davis2003 (talk) 07:46, 23 July 2012 (UTC) Hart of Dixie Season Splitting, List of Episodes discussionDiscussion about the issues listed above takes place here. Remember to keep your comments calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.
Way too soon for this. The discussion on the talk page was started (by me) a few hours ago to head an edit war off at the pass. The discussion there is ongoing, and I will discuss there. --Drmargi (talk) 08:08, 23 July 2012 (UTC) I am a dispute resolution volunteer. Since the discussion hasn't been ongoing very long, I recommend the course of action suggested here by Drmargi - that you discuss the matter further on the article talk page(s). If that discussion does not result in consensus, by all means feel free to return here. - Jorgath (talk) (contribs) 21:17, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
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École nationale de l'aviation civile
![]() | Stale or resolved. — TransporterMan (TALK) 18:41, 24 July 2012 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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Filed by 80.13.85.217 on 08:53, 17 July 2012 (UTC).
Dispute overview
McSly and Racconish are for this version : http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=École_nationale_de_l%27aviation_civile&diff=502689914&oldid=502688867. I am more for this one : http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=École_nationale_de_l%27aviation_civile&diff=502688867&oldid=502687945. The goal is to make this article a good article. Users involved
We have started a discussion on the talk page of the article.
Yes.
Resolving the dispute
Discussion on talk page
By giving other opinions on which version is the best, by comparing with good articles on the same subject. 80.13.85.217 (talk) 08:53, 17 July 2012 (UTC) École nationale de l'aviation civile discussionDiscussion about the issues listed above takes place here. Remember to keep your comments calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.
Hi! I'm a volunteer here at the DRN, and I'll be attempting to assist you all in this dispute. My first question is simply, have you considered a Wikipedia:3 request? Theopolisme TALK 14:33, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
If there is no response, this thread will be closed 24 hours after this time: July 23, 2012 at 17:05 (UTC) Reason: Appears to be stale or resolved. — TransporterMan (TALK) 17:05, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
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List of conspiracy theories
![]() | It seems like what can be done here, has been done here. Anything else can be dealt with in the appropriate forums. - Jorgath (talk) (contribs) 20:47, 25 July 2012 (UTC) |
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Filed by Validuz on 13:11, 24 July 2012 (UTC).
Dispute overview
I changed a word that wasn't a NPOV from "canard" to "conspiracy" in this sentence: "A related conspiracy is that Jews control Hollywood or the news media." Dougweller immediately reverted the change and posted on my page threatening to block me from being able to edit the page. Ironically and hypocritically, he claimed I was the one not being neutral. "Canard" means false, as obviously does "myth." Neither are NPOV when referring to conspiracy theories. Users involved
What concerns me is that I believe he's an administrator. I don't know how that could happen with someone that doesn't know that stating "a conspiracy is false" is not a NPOV.
Yes
Resolving the dispute
Once I've been threatened, I'm not sure what to do past edit wars.
Explain to him what NPOV means, because he clearly doesn't know. This seems to be a reoccurring theme when it comes to anything to do with Israel. Validuz (talk) 13:11, 24 July 2012 (UTC) List of conspiracy theories discussionDiscussion about the issues listed above takes place here. Remember to keep your comments calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.
I gave him an NPOV warning, not the same as a threat to block him. He didn't simply change canard to conspiracy theory, he made that sentence read read " A related conspiracy is that Jews control Hollywood" - which looks as though the article is asserting that there is a Jewish conspiracy. He also added "by pro-Jewish groups" to "Holocaust denial is generally considered to be an antisemitic conspiracy theory"saying in his edit summary "The cited references are only from pro-Jewish organizations" - which is simply not true, check them out. After rolling him back I looked at the paragraph again and changed 'canard' to 'myth' (as used elsewhere in the paragraph) and added sources saying 'myth' which he reverted to his earlier version, "A related conspiracy is that Jews control Hollywood or the news media" which looks like pov wording. Note that a number of sources do use the word 'canard' [1] and that he was blocked for edit warring over exactly this last year (when it was pointed out at the now deleted article that there were sources for canard.[2] Dougweller (talk) 13:30, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
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Conflict of interest and protecting the intergity of Wikipedia.
![]() | Not a dispute resolution noticeboard filing. Please follow instructions at the top of the page. Guy Macon (talk) 14:59, 25 July 2012 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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Macclesfield Bank, South China Sea Islands
![]() | No discussion for over 5 days. Guy Macon (talk) 01:27, 27 July 2012 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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Dispute overview
The Macclesfield Bank is notable for being a disputed territory. The dispute in the article seemingly started when I added references in a particular statement about the claimant countries in order to make the content in the article verifiable (because there weren't any citations there before that edit). In the succeeding edits, Namayan removed the referenced Philippines claim as he is not convinced that such claim exists. He argues that a primary source is needed and that according to his research on documents from the UN website, the supposed citations for the purported Philippine claim misrepresents Philippine government position on the issue. The following are current sources used for the Philippine claim:
The dispute is centered on the issue on whether the above mentioned independent sources were inaccurate or not in publishing such information. These sources, being recognized news agencies or in the US State Dept source's case, an official body of another sovereign state, are highly unlikely, in my belief, to post information of such magnitude if these weren't well researched or are downright false. I believe looking over at documents at the UN website and drawing conclusions from it without authoritative supporting sources constitute original research, more so by assuming that the information posted by the US State Dept, et al are not accurate nor true until proven otherwise. Users involved
I believe Namayan erred in making presumptions that just because he didn't find any mention of the territory in what he believes is the best source for the subject (the UN website, among others), means that such claim by the Philippines is non-existent. At least 3 of the references above have been published recently. His assertions that the Philippines as the country does not claim the territory, citations are contrary to Philippine territorial laws and submissions to the United Nations is original research as it is not supported by any other source that disputes the accuracy of the information published from the 4 sources. He has also yet to disprove that the sources posted false or inaccurate information, their credibility were questionable, or the information is contrary at all to what the official Philippine government position is. He is insisting that the information posted from all the references are inaccurate because he did not find any mention of the territory in any of the laws/treatises/etc. he researched on. The South China Sea Islands article is also being listed since Namayan has already been reverting edits there under the same assertion. If the claim of the Philippines is non-existent at all, the Phil. government would have already issued a notice to all these agencies that they posted wrong information or the US State Dept, et al would have already withdrawn such information through an erratum. Any of the two scenarios did not happen. For an issue of such magnitude, I find it unlikely that the Phil. government is not aware of the content of such references (1 is a paper from the US, 2 are nationally recognized newspapers, and 1 is a news publication from another country).
Yes
Resolving the dispute
I started a topic at his talk page in order to clarify my addition of my sources and to have his actions clarified. A long discussion has ensued. Seeing no consensus on the issue, I suggested that the matter be elevated to the Philippines topics noticeboard where yet another long discussion followed. I restored my references to the M. Bank article with a {{better source}} tag in order to reach an impasse with the understanding that my edit will be construed that such claim by the Philippines is backed up with reliable and verifiable sources but better sources are being desired. Namayan still removed the Philippines as a claimant country even when references were clearly supplied with his understanding that such information is not supported by official government documents.
Third opinion from other parties is earnestly needed in order to identify whether the given sources pass the standards of WP:V and WP:RS. If the sources qualify as such, the claim can be included in the article. Third opinion is also desired in determining the validity of the information of the articles. Four different sources were already cited in order to support that such a claim by the Philippines exists. I believe that: to regard their content as inaccurate, or their credibility questionable in the absence of or non-access to a primary source; and to interpret the primary sources (UN documents, laws, treatises, etc.) available without evidence of being an expert or being an authority of the subject constitute original research. Thus, third opinion is also being sought in order to determine whether such is true. Xeltran (talk) 14:37, 1 July 2012 (UTC) Macclesfield Bank, South China Sea Islands discussionDiscussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.
Being an editor of Wikipedia for over 6 years, who has also done extensive gathering of references for Philippine content to be provided in Wikipedia, I am very well aware of the requirements needed for an article. This disputed information stemmed from the citing of news articles and a U.S. State Department publication in absence of an any official information from the Philippine government, which is the most reliable source on territorial claims of the country. On the other hand, I have cited and listed laws that define Philippine territory, which are likewise deposited with the United Nations [3], yet it is not being recognized by the other editor, saying that as a non-expert on the issue, I should not be interpreting these laws. These laws are explicit in determining the extent of Philippine territory and identifies the extreme points (land features) of the nations borders/baselines being an archipelago. It has also identified areas outside of the defined baseline as regime of islands in compliance with UNCLOS, in this case Kalayaan Group of Islands (Philippine claimed portion of the Spratlys) and Scarborough Shoal. It is illustrated by this map. The other editor insists that secondary references should be the basis for an article to be verifiable, which I subscribe too, PROVIDED, in this case being a State matter, there should also be primary information to base it upon, and this "purported" territorial claim must be sourced from an official government publication. Unfortunately, the other editor has not presented any though. The other editor also insists that I provide information, that refutes the articles that he/she has presented. Why would a government bother to publish something it doesn't have a stake on? It should not take an "expert" on the matter (a cartographer) to pin point the geographic features on a map, if one will just look at the map of South China Sea one can already see, that Macclesfield (close to Paracel Islands, off Hainan, China) is not being identified as a territory claimed by the Philippines, as in the map I have cited above. During the deliberations in Congress of the Philippine Baseline Law (in time to meet the U.N. deadline as per UNCLOS), there were various discussions that were published in reference to this, let me cite this one. This by GMA News Network (one of the two largest broadcasting companies in the country) also illustrates the definition of the country's territory. In a case brought before, and decided by the Supreme Court of the Philippines, which contested the constitutionality of the Philippine Baselines Law (Republic Act No. 9522), the petitioners argue, that the law which declared Kalayaan Group of Islands (Philippine claimed portion of the Spratlys) and Scarborough Shoal as regime of islands instead of enclosing them in the Philippine baselines, has weakened the claim of the Philippines over these territories. The non-mention of Macclesfield Bank, could be construed that it is not a territory that the Philippines claims. This is not rocket science. Why would these petitioners against the Baseline Law, who are concerned about territorial diminution of the Philippines, not voice their concern about the non-inclusion of Macclesfield Bank, if it were indeed a territory the Philippines claims? Plain logic and common sense do not constitute original research. A thesis in the University of Wollongong by a Filipino expert on the matter, studied this issue, and no where would he indicate that Macclesfield is claimed/should be claimed by the Philippines by properly enclosing and defining it in its territory. It is hard to conceive that the non-mention of Macclesfield Bank as a territory claimed by the Philippines, should not be construed that the government of the Philippines does not lay claim to this land feature. I'd also like to pose questions to guide those who will comment on the matter:
Also, if one has to go by official maps, though trivial it is used by governments as a propaganda arm to illustrate its territory and the areas they claim, one can just go to the National Mapping Agency of the Philippine government and download the "Philippine Administrative Map with the Kalayaan Group of Islands" located at the bottom right side of the site. One will find that Macclesfield is not even identified as a feature in the map. -- Namayan (talk) 03:02, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
I am a regular volunteer here at DRN. While I stand to be corrected, I am unfamiliar with any Wikipedia policy or guidelines which supports Namayan's claim that, "The other editor insists that secondary references should be the basis for an article to be verifiable, which I subscribe too, PROVIDED, in this case being a State matter, there should also be primary information to base it upon, and this 'purported' territorial claim must be sourced from an official government publication." He/she may believe that is the way that Wikipedia should work, but the way in which to achieve that is to propose that standard as a policy or guideline using the procedure set out in WP:POLICY. Until then, reliable secondary sources are sufficient to include an assertion in Wikipedia and at least some of the sources offered by Xeltran appear to be reliable (but not including the US State Department source, which as a self-published source cannot be used as a reliable source for claims about a third party). In light of that understanding, whether or not Namayan's sources require original research is a moot point. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 01:42, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
This discussion is pointless because the answer to Namayan's question, "Unfortunately, the secondary sources contradict the Philippine territorial laws from which it should derive its information, which shall then prevail?" is that under Wikipedia policy, the secondary sources clearly prevail unless you can produce a primary government source which expressly says that they make no claim to these places. (And even then, even if there was a government document which expressly says that they make no claim to the area, since other reliable secondary sources say that they do, that would not prevent an assertion being made in the article that they make the claim. Instead, it would merely require that both the assertion that they make such a claim and the assertion that they do not make the claim being reported in the article. Wikipedia does not weigh or attempt to reconcile conflicting sources, it merely reports both claims.} The fact that there are some government documents which do not include or mention it requires interpretation of the purpose and scope of those documents and such interpretation is forbidden by the WP:PRIMARY policy. The fact that some documents or laws say what territories the government claims for certain purposes does not necessarily mean that the included places are all the places claimed by that government for other purposes and, further, does not mean that new claims have not arisen since that document or law was written. (I'm not saying that is what has happened here, but only saying that the mere possibility of such eventualities prevents the use of proof-by-silence. However, the mere existence of this discussion User_talk:Namayan#Sources_for_Phil._territorial_waters_map on your talk page over the meaning of the baseline law illustrates that the scope and purpose of the baseline law are a matter which are less than apparent on its face. For a primary source to be usable under WP:PRIMARY, the assertion for which it is being used must be absolutely apparent on the face of the source. Indeed, in this edit, you tell another editor, "It will help you if you would read documents about UNCLOS, and why countries have to docket their territorial limits and submit it before the UN deadline of May 13, 2009." If it is necessary for a person to do such reading in order to understand the scope and import of a document, then that document cannot be used as a reliable source in Wikipedia under the WP:PRIMARY policy for anything which arises out of that scope or import.) I see absolutely no support in Wikipedia policy for Namayan's position in this matter. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 20:12, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
If there is no response, this thread will be closed 24 hours after this time: September 3, 2024 at 05:27 (UTC) Reason: This appears to be either stale or resolved. — TransporterMan (TALK) 14:49, 10 July 2012 (UTC) I will try to contact the Inquirer article authors. I've been reading up on the Philippine territorial claims and this is the first time that I have ever heard that the Philippines is claiming Macclesfield Bank. I believe this is sloppy journalism on the part of Inquirer. --seav (talk) 16:53, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
After posting the closing note, above, I noticed that even though Namayan is an experienced editor here with 9,000+ edits since 2006 that he has not edited since July 6. While he may have decided to walk away from this discussion or, indeed, from Wikipedia altogether, I'm disinclined to jump to that conclusion without giving it a few more days. I'm going to leave this thread open through the weekend until at least 13:00, 30 July 2012 (UTC), and will then close it as stale or resolved if it has not picked back up. — TransporterMan (TALK) 17:25, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
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Template:Braille
![]() | No discussion for over 5 days. Guy Macon (talk) 01:42, 27 July 2012 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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Dispute overview
We have been in a long dispute over which braille systems should be included under the heading of "unified braille". Specifically, the main contention is over Tibetan braille. I have already requested a 3rd opinion, and I waited for several weeks for those recommendations to be accepted by the other editor. When it finally became clear that the other user in the dispute would not be implementing the third opinion, I did so in the most neutral way possible, and was reverted within minutes. Users involved
Yes.
Resolving the dispute
talk page discussion 3 May - 12 May. 3rd opinion requested 18 June, answered by Coastside 18-19 June.
Given that Kwamikagami is an admin, and that this has had a chilling effect on my editing, I think that simply having more editors who are willing to stand for policy would be a help. VanIsaacWScontribs 08:10, 10 July 2012 (UTC) Template:Braille discussionDiscussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.
This is not the dispute. The dispute is what to call the family of French-based braille alphabets. It is only by contravening this convention that Algerian braille is notable. At first we had "Latin based", but Vanisaac objected that wasn't accurate. Then we had "Universal braille", and Vanisaac was happy with it for a while, but then changed his mind. I don't really care what we call it, but I do object to Vanisaac's OR that certain braille alphabets are "unclassified" because he can't find them in a list, despite the fact that they are transparently based on the nearly universal French order, as he himself admits. That would be like arguing that the Latvian alphabet is "unclassified" because it doesn't appear in a list of Latin-based alphabets. We seem to be confusing the title for the topic. Nav boxes, like articles, are based on their topic, and the title needs to be chosen to fit, not the other way around. — kwami (talk) 08:34, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
(Comment from uninvolved editor) I am a volunteer here at DRN. The primary dispute here seems to be pretty clearly addressed by WP:BURDEN: The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. What material is being added or restored here? The previous status quo was without the use of "unclassified" - ergo, the burden of evidence lies with the editor who wants to change that status quo. Sleddog116 (talk) 13:06, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
Here are some passages from the 1953 doc that VanIsaac places so much importance in:
[This only applied to the 26 letters of the Basic Latin Alphabet. The extra French, German, and English letters and contractions were never unified, as can be seen at a glance in the WP-fr article,[6] which contrasts them.]
This is the Unified international braille of which VanIsaac speaks. It is not actually a unified system, but rather a family of partially compatible systems. Even English, French, and German, the original three brailles, diverge from each other to a large degree. How much divergence is too much would of course be a judgement call, and would need to be sourced to not be OR. — kwami (talk) 23:55, 10 July 2012 (UTC) (Comment from uninvolved editor) Okay, thank you; that summarizes the locus of the dispute, I think. Now, VanIsaac, how do you maintain that your proposed additions are not original research? Remember, OR is anything that can't be verified by the letter of outside sources (i.e. not simply your interpretation of outside sources, but what the sources literally say). Sleddog116 (talk) 01:14, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
PS, Kwami has taken the opportunity of this process to again thwart consensus by adding the invented "Category:French-based braille alphabets" to the contested articles [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] and [18]. I consider it to be extremely counterproductive, antagonistic, and acting in bad faith to push non-consensus actions while in the middle of a dispute resolution process. Kwami, you did the same sort of thing (contested page moves) back when we had people trying to come to a consensus on Writing Systems article naming conventions last year, and I consider it to be taking advantage of my refusal to edit war with you while this dispute is ongoing. VanIsaacWScontribs 09:05, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
Nobody has contributed for three days. If you guys can't help mediate this dispute, where do I go from here? VanIsaacWScontribs 02:11, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
I, DePiep, got involved in a discussion, nothing special, that started by Kwami at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Writing systems#Braile again July 20, so 10 days after this thread started. I think I joined constructicvely with Kwami, and vanisaac contributed too. (I just created a /sandbox example!). Only now I discovered this active DRN thread. Later on I may choose to be an involved editor. For now, I feel deceived and disappointed. -DePiep (talk) 21:57, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
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Talk:Fascism#democracy
![]() | Discussion stale; issue appears to be resolved. Lord Roem (talk) 23:00, 27 July 2012 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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Dispute overview
The problem is involving a dispute over fascism's political relationship with democracy. The article titled Fascism currently says that fascism rejects liberal democracy but says that fascism denies that it is entirely against democracy. Two users, Yiddi and The Four Deuces (TFD) have claimed that fascism did not claim to be democratic and that it was opposed democracy entirely. The user Trust Is All You Need (TIAYN) noted that fascism has claimed to support a form of democracy. TFD made a statement that caused the dispute to solidify, TFD said: "Fascism was not democratic even in theory" - the bolded part is the part that I and others have contested is not accurate. I agreed with TIAYN that fascism did indeed claim to support democracy, and I provided evidence of fascists declaring that fascism supported a form of democracy. Italian Fascist theorist Giovanni Gentile in the Doctrine of Fascism that he ghostwrote for Mussolini, declares support for an "organized, centralized, authoritarian democracy". I utilized the World Fascism encyclopedia by Cyprian Blamires as a reference for the quote, and furthermore the source goes on to explain fascism's claims to being democratic, see here: [19], Blamires' source is a reputable source that is available at English language university libraries, including Harvard University's library, see here [20]. Note that I am not saying that fascism is democratic in practice, I am saying that fascism claims to be democratic. What I am saying is that the issue of fascism being undemocratic in practice does not mean thereby that the ideology opposed democracy or was not democratic in theory. TFD responded that sources by scholars were needed to verify this. I provided sources from preeminent scholar on fascism Roger Griffin and A. James Gregor (I initially forgot that I used Gregor's source and said it was by another scholar on fascism, Emilio Gentile, out of confusion, because the authors have two books that are visually similar). Both these sources clearly showed scholars acknowledging fascism's ideological claim to be democratic, see here for Griffin's source: [21], see here for Gregor's source: [22]. TFD responded by saying that WP:WEIGHT applied. I responded that the issue of TFD claiming that "Fascism was not democratic even in theory" is factually inaccurate and that that claim cannot hold WP:WEIGHT because the sources I provided demonstrate that fascism did claim to be democratic in theory. I suggested that TFD accept a compromise involving a statement along the lines of: "fascism is widely regarded as undemocratic in practice in spite of claims by fascists that they are democratic". TFD did not acknowledge this. The argument continued, and I and the users TIAYN and Collect have grown frustrated over what we view as stubbornness by TFD to admit that his argument that "Fascism was not democratic even in theory" is not factually accurate and is thus an untenable argument. TFD claims that I am promoting an obscure claim.--R-41 (talk) 19:38, 11 July 2012 (UTC) Users involved
Yes.
Resolving the dispute
Have attempted Wikipedia:Negotiation to seek a compromise. The compromise was involving an acceptance by TFD and users on a phrase we could both agree upon, basically along the lines of the following: "Fascism is widely regarded to be undemocratic in practice in spite of claims by fascists that they support democracy". Wikipedia:Negotiation failed, frustration between users has grown.
There needs to be a resolution on the specific issue of TFD's continued claim that "Fascism was not democratic even in theory", that TFD is using to justify an argument that fascism was entirely, and without any qualifications, "opposed to democracy", because I have presented evidence that contradicts this claim. As I have said, TFD is refusing to accept the material as disproving her/his argument. He/she claims that WP:WEIGHT applies to justify her/his claim, I claim that WP:WEIGHT does not apply to her/his claim because it is factually inaccurate. Her/his claim needs to be reviewed as to whether it is logically tenable to uphold, given the fact that sources I have have been provided that appear to completely refute it. R-41 (talk) 19:38, 11 July 2012 (UTC) Talk:Fascism#democracy discussionDiscussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.
I just want to commend User:R-41 for writing a well detailed but striaghtforward file and Dispute Overview.Curb Chain (talk) 23:41, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
Absent from R-41's exposition, which presents only support for his/her position re. the disputed content (and yet is eulogized somewhere above as "dispassionate" and highly commendable!), is any material that might support TFD's position. E.g. Jackson J. Spielvogel, associate professor emeritus at Pennsylvania State University, in Western Civilization: Since 1300 (Cengage Learning, 2011), quotes Mussolini/Gentile: "Fascism combats the whole complex system of democratic ideology, and repudiates it" et seq. [24]. Writegeist (talk) 01:46, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
Note: the only Highbeam source for a review of Riley's work is at [28] and quite contrary to TFDs assertion about every review - does not disparage Riley at all.
Clearly does not support TFDs blanket assertion about reviews. Other reviews include This brilliant comparative study of the rise of fascism in Italy, Spain, and Romania brings Tocqueville and Gramsci into a novel and surprising conversation. It will change the way you think about civil society, fascism, and democracy.(William Sewell, the University of Chicago 2011), Make no mistake, this is much more than comparative fascisms. Dylan Riley not only rethinks and meshes the legacies of Tocqueville, Arendt and Gramsci; he sobers us up to the actual history of civil society and democratization in continental Europe. This theoretical lesson seems still gravely relevant elsewhere in the world today. (Georgi Derluguian, author of Bourdieu's Secret Admirer in the Caucasus: A World-Systems Biography 2010) etc. (Amazon.com listing of 9 reviews - none of which is what TFD implies all reviews are) When asserting that all reviews are antithetical to a book, it helps if one is actually dealing with facts. Collect (talk) 00:52, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
Riley's book was published by Johns Hopkins, prima facie a reliable source. [30] He has received multiple awards, including the Seymour Lipset Award. [31].
To get back on topic, as I said I think TFD is ignoring that Riley is acknowledging the fact that fascists claimed be democratic. I actually agree with TFD in that I disagree with Riley that fascism was in practice democratic - the two prominent fascist regimes were led by narcissistic individuals, Mussolini and Hitler, who sought to make sure that no one could challenge their vision of what Italy and Germany should become. But that is just my personal review of Riley's view. That being said, I will summarize my points by saying that TFD's argument based on this statement: "Fascism was not democratic even in theory", is inconsistent with this Italian Fascist declaration that fascism involves an "organized, centralized authoritarian democracy" [35]--R-41 (talk) 15:48, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
Volunteer Comment: I would like to offer some advice, from a logical standpoint. I have no in-depth knowledge of any of the "claims" made here. As stated in WP:Fringe_theories page, "Ideas should not be excluded from the encyclopedia simply because they are widely held to be wrong." I believe R-41's claim could also fall under an "exceptional claim." If there is verifiable proof that fascists have claimed fascism to be similar or variant of democracy, it should be included in the article. If it is also the minority opinion, it should be stated as such. I believe that User:R-41 has provided sources to back up his claim, and if such sources are verifiable and acceptable under WP policy, he has met the conditions necessary for inclusion. I also think it would help to have a clear, simple statement as to why TFD feels the claim in question should not be included, if worded properly. Sources to support your statement would be very useful as well. Arguments over the viewpoint of any author are not necessary. If the statement was made, it deserves to be included. If it is widely viewed as incorrect, it should be noted. Acronin3 (talk) 19:33, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
Let's focus on content, shall we? R-41 has suggested proposed wording, which it seems to me is worth discussing properly. But there is quite a lot of proposed wording here, and each point will have to be worked on separately. R-41, each point will need its source. I am going to advise on sourcing myself here below, as that is one of my main interests in the encyclopedia. Weight should also be carefully considered. Pulling the proposed wording into its component parts:
I hope this helps, also that you will get some more non-involved comments. Itsmejudith (talk) 15:20, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
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The Zombie Diaries, World of the Dead: The Zombie Diaries
![]() | No discussion for over 5 days. Guy Macon (talk) 01:55, 27 July 2012 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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There's been a non-stop edit war going on at these two articles between User:Bradswanson2010 and various IPs (who may or may not be related) regarding the two films in question. Basically it comes down to the budget of one film and how wide the release was for another. Taking a look at the history pages it's non-stop "Undid revision by so and so." Users involved
I'm going to guess that the IPs might belong to the same organization/person and may be involved with the films in question.
Yes.
Resolving the dispute
I left a message on Bradswanson2010's page as well as a notice on the film Wikiproject.
I suppose an experienced editor can take a look at the two pages and come to a conclusion as to what direction should be taken. CyberGhostface (talk) 19:27, 12 July 2012 (UTC) The Zombie Diaries, World of the Dead: The Zombie Diaries discussionDiscussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.
My immediate thought when looking at this case was, "let me check the article talk pages." I saw no comments on the talk pages, and it appears that none of the editors involved have communicated with each other outside of edit summaries. Is this correct, or am I missing something? Because I think our first step is simply for said editors to "sit down" and talk about it - not fight about it, please note, but just communicate. If, after this, nothing comes out of it, we can move on to our next steps in this - potentially at WP:3 or something of the like. Theopolisme TALK 20:16, 12 July 2012 (UTC) Yes, both 217.33.166.226 (talk · contribs) and 81.105.0.14 (talk · contribs) are makers of the films in question and are attempting to hide the low budget of the first and the fact that the release of the second was limited to only three cinemas in the UK. The budget of £8,100 is widely known, referenced frequently online and has even been verified in the page discussion thread by Michael Bartlett - one of the directors. For the makers to now attempt to edit the page to try to present their films in the best light is not representative of the truth - that being that The Zombie Diaries budget was £8,100 and that the The World of The Dead was released at 3 UK cinemas for 3 days before the DVD release. Bradswanson2010 Bradswanson2010 is completely incorrect in a number of his assumptions. There is no evidence that the film World of the Dead: The Zombie Diaries was screened at only 3 cinemas. Bradswanson2010 has provided a dead link as evidence. It was a limited release before the dvd release, but to state 3 screens without evidence cannot be accepted as true. Also, the evidence to support the budget of £8,100 for The Zombie Diaries is based upon posts on messageboards, blogs and not from any official source. The imdb budget entry states £500,000! I don't believe this is correct either, however it demonstrates that it is more accurate not to state the budget, as it is clearly unknown at this present time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.105.0.14 (talk) 21:08, 12 July 2012 (UTC) Kevin/Michael, as you know, filmmakers inflate their budgets on imdb, much the same as your two alter info on here to make your films appear more successful than they actually were. The £8,100 budget is consistent across all the references and a widely known figure. You also know that your film was released at 3 cinemas for 3 days before the films release on DVD complete with spectacularly misleading cover. Bradswanson2010. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bradswanson2010 (talk • contribs) 23:26, 12 July 2012 (UTC) Clear case of edit warring. On World of the Dead: The Zombie Diaries the budget isn't even stated so why are you making an issue?Curb Chain (talk) 06:42, 13 July 2012 (UTC) Based on the evidence, it cannot be certain what the budget for Zombie Diaries was, nor the number of screenings World of the Dead had. Based upon that, they should not be referenced on Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.105.0.14 (talk) 07:28, 13 July 2012 (UTC) The evidence that the budget to The Zombie Diaries is £8,100 is referenced five times. Based on what you say, there is no actual evidence that The World of the Dead was released in any cinemas. Bradswanson2010. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bradswanson2010 (talk • contribs) 07:44, 13 July 2012 (UTC) Alright - thank you all for responding. 1st note, please remember to always sign your comments with 4 tildes (~~~~) - it makes it easier to see who's who and what's what. Now - as Curb Chain said, this really seems like just a huge edit war. This may be a case for Wikipedia:AN/EW - as I don't think you two(three) are agreeing on anything over this medium. Rather, you're letting this stretch out in a great number of reverts. I looked at the references, and it appears that Bradswanson2010 is correct - the references that are not dead links do say that the budget is £8,100. However, as 81.105.0.14 will not accept this, and as both of you are in the wrong for WP:EWing... I recommend that, if you two can not come to a consensus, this dispute be brought to the Wikipedia:AN/EW. Another final note to CurbChain - on World of the Dead: The Zombie Diaries, it appears the debate is regarding the number of screenings. Theopolisme TALK 12:12, 13 July 2012 (UTC) I believe the point on the dead links was to do with the '3 cinema screenings' reference. As it has been agreed that is not reliable as it is a dead link, it should remain as 'limited' as it is common knowledge the film released a very minor theatrical run. Regarding the budget, the links provided by BradSwanson2010 are blog sites and not from any official source. So it is unreliable information. If you notice Bradswanson2010's recent amendment to World of the Dead to do with misleading cover art, it is clear he has an agenda to try and stoke up anything that tries to paint the film-makers and the film in a bad light. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.33.166.226 (talk) 12:45, 13 July 2012 (UTC) As it is now appears evident that you two can not come to a consensus, I believe that this dispute should be brought to the Wikipedia:AN/EW - I really don't have any other suggestions at this point, as it appears that you both are acting hostile-ly towards each other and it is not as much a content dispute as a personal battle between you. Thanks, and please let me know- Theopolisme TALK 14:55, 13 July 2012 (UTC) 217.33.166.226/Michael/Kevin, you cite "common knowledge" for stating the film had a limited theatrical run. It is also "common knowledge" that the run was three screens. It is "common knowledge" that the budget for the first film was £8,100. It is also quite clearly common and referenceable knowledge that both films had misleading cover art. There's no agenda there - just adding to the facts here on Wikipedia. Bradswanson2010 Bradswanson2010 (talk) 16:23, 13 July 2012 (UTC) Edit warring report filed - this is not something we can help you with over here. See Wikipedia:AN/EW] Theopolisme TALK 16:49, 13 July 2012 (UTC) I would welcome a resolution, but one that is based solely on the evidence available. Although there is no official budget confirmed by the production company, then perhaps the term 'rumored' should be used if £8,100 is stated on wikipedia. Regarding the number of screens, there is no evidence at all to support the number of screens being 3, so it should not be stated as a fact on wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.33.166.226 (talk) 16:31, 13 July 2012 (UTC) Agree with the above. £8,100 should remain but only with a "(rumored)" and the 3 screens should be removed completely as there are no facts at all or evidence to back it up. Again, please remember to sign your comments - anyhow, that's two of you - however, might I note that Bradswanson2010 claims that both of your are representing the same entity (which could, in some circumstances, be considered a WP:SOCK). Another note, I have requested page protection on these pages in question in order to potentially "quell the storms" for a bit and let you rationally figure this out. Theopolisme TALK 00:15, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
Judging by the lack of verifiable sources, I would have to agree that "rumored" should be added to the budget, or the number itself should be taken out completely. Basic WP policy states that any information must be verifiable, and the current 3 links on the page are not pointing to anything discussing the budget, nor to any trustworthy source. Before attempting to claim that it is "common knowledge", I would recommend that Bradswanson2010 read WP:Common_knowledge. Acronin3 (talk) 20:23, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
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Autobiography of a Yogi
![]() | No discussion for 4 days. Guy Macon (talk) 06:23, 27 July 2012 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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Filed by Tat Sat on 05:23, 13 July 2012 (UTC).
Dispute overview
This article is about a book that was published in 1946 and is in public domain. Instead of having the book's original cover, the page advertises a subsequent edition of the book published by Self-Realization Fellowship, one of the 5 or 6 Publishers of the same book. The trajetory of this book publication has many disputes and controversial issues since after the author's death, Self-Realizatin Fellowship made nearly one thousand changes in the original text and forged the author's signature. Red Rose supresses reccurrently all the contoversy from the article. There was even a lawsuit in which SRF accused Ananda, another publisher of the book, of violating its copyright . SRF lost the lawsuit: . "We hold that SRF was not entitled to renew its copyrights in books authored by Yogananda." - The legal case is posted in Wikisource. Thank you. Users involved
Yes.
Resolving the dispute
I tried to discuss the changes made in the article but it is impossible to reach a consensus when there is sectarism. Also Red Rose provides innacurate information given him by SRF.
It would help to have an editor with experience in book pages who is also familiar with ethics in publication. Tat Sat (talk) 05:23, 13 July 2012 (UTC) Autobiography of a Yogi discussionDiscussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.
Hello everyone, I'm Mr. Stradivarius, a volunteer here at the dispute resolution noticeboard. This doesn't give me any special power or privileges - my role here is to guide you towards a compromise, not to make binding decisions about content. I have read through the discussion here and on the talk page, and first I want to echo what Sitush has been saying about personal attacks. Personal attacks are never acceptable on Wikipedia, and if we are going to successfully resolve this dispute we need to stop them right now. From this point on, I would like all the involved editors to avoid talking about each other at all. Talking about the edits that another editor has made is fine, but speculating about another editor's motivations or affiliations is not. Can you all agree to abide by this for the duration of this dispute? Now, about the content. I see two basic issues in this dispute - the first is which image we should use in the infobox at the top of the article, and the second is how we cover the controversies about the book in the article itself. (Let me know if there are any issues that I have missed.) I propose that we deal with these issues one by one, starting with the issue of which image to use in the infobox. After reading through all the suggestions for the image, the one that made most sense to me was to use the original 1946 cover. And when I say the original cover, I mean the cover of the very first edition that was actually available in the year 1946, not the cover of a reprint made later by another publisher who merely said "this is the original edition". To me, the original 1946 cover seems the most representative of the topic as a whole, and using it would avoid any problems about Wikipedia appearing to favour one publisher over another. Does everyone think that using the original 1946 cover is a reasonable suggestion? Let me know your thoughts below. Best regards — Mr. Stradivarius (have a chat) 00:58, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
PS I would like to add a third issued in the infobox: The name in the book cover is spelled Paramhansa Yogananda - without the "a", not Paramahansa. Only much later SRF changed the spelling of the name and forged the author´s signature. This should also be corrected. I can upload any page of the 1946, the edition princeps but there are many facsimiles in the Internet, for free. It is easy to verify this information. Later editions and the explanation why they were published should be in the article itself, not in the infobox. First editions of famous books are so important that they cost a fortune. Thank you Tat Sat (talk) 16:41, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
To answer your question, Mr. Stradivarius, I think you are talking about the first edition book published by Philosophical Library as requested by Yogananda shown on eBay. This cover is duplicated by Crystal Clarity (even though their version looks newer) as you have pointed out in your illustration. So to post the original would favor the CC Publisher. When you google Crystal Clarity Publishers Autobiography of a Yogi, this is where you are taken.http://www.crystalclarity.com/yogananda/ Please notice the commercial links to purchase their products. The subsequent editions I am referring to are the changes the author made himself including to his third edition, published in 1951, where he made significant changes — including even adding a new Chapter #49 and new footnotes. Some further revisions made by him after the third edition were not able to be incorporated until the publication of the seventh edition, which was released in 1956. So you see, this edition which included edits by the author, is different from his first edition in 1946. I hope this information provides more clarity on the subject. http://www.yogananda-srf.org/ay/Yogananda%E2%80%99s_Wishes_for_Later_Editions.aspx Here are links to some of the other covers involved because we need to represent them as well.
Of the books mentioned above the most common picture on the cover is the Standard Pose of Yogananda – The 1946 version published by Yogananda, Crystal Clarity, Sterling, General books and Self-Realization all use the same pose. So again I propose that we use the Standard Pose of Yogananda on this page and list in the info box that he is the author of this book. Before we delve into more details on this page, let us first decide on whether we are even going to have an info box or not and if we are, what picture, then we can discuss the other things that need correcting. I would like to remind everyone that we were also discussing whether to even have a info box.Red Rose 13 (talk) 16:44, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
These two are paperbacks which at first glance seem to be from Empire or Grange but are actually from Crystal Clarity Publishers – when you click to view the book click on the back page to see Crystal Clarity information:
Red Rose 13 (talk) 07:13, 15 July 2012 (UTC) Thank you for your further posts, everyone. The discussion seems to have veered off track a little - let's try and deal with the issues in this dispute one at a time, starting with the question of which image to use in the infobox. Someone asked which Wikipedia guidelines govern the use of infobox images, so let's look at that first. The particular guideline that is most relevant here is Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Images#Choosing images, especially the section on choosing images for the lead. Here is a quote from it:
From this, it would seem that a version of the book's cover would be most appropriate; however, this advice is quite general, and the guideline allows us some leeway in interpreting it. As well as this guideline, there is the non-free content criteria. The most relevant criteria there is number one, "no free equivalent": this basically says that we cannot use a copyrighted image in the article if there is a free image that could do the job just as well. This means that we must be very careful in determining which images are copyrighted and which aren't, as it would be pointless for us all to agree on an image only to find out that we can't include it due to this criteria. So, from these, it would seem we need to come to a consensus about which image best represents the topic as a whole, and we also need to make sure that we don't get caught out by the "no free equivalent" rule. It seems that we're all in agreement that the current image is not the most representative of the topic, so that is a good start. Red Rose 13 doesn't seem to want to use the original 1946 cover that I linked to above, so let's see if we can agree about another image. Red Rose suggested using File:Paramahansa Yogananda.jpg; this would not be as representative of the topic as a book cover, but does have the advantage of being neutral, and appears not to be in copyright. Tat Sat, NestedVariable, what do you think about using this image? — Mr. Stradivarius (have a chat) 11:05, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
I've noticed that this has appeared at WP:ANI in my absence, and I see that a lot of editors have been using the word "vandalism". I think you should all take a moment to reread WP:VANDALISM - you will find out that the definition is very strict. Just because someone does something you don't agree with does not mean that it is vandalism. Saying that other editors have performed vandalism, if they have not, is an example of a personal attack - "Accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence" - and is only going to make it harder to resolve this dispute. Please think again about my advice on personal attacks above - we want to do things that will help resolve this dispute, not things which escalate it. Regarding the infobox image, I have left a post at the media copyright questions board. Let's wait for an answer to that, and then set up a request for comments. We can deal with the other content issues after that. Best — Mr. Stradivarius (have a chat) 14:52, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
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16:10
![]() | Closing due to lack of discussion. Recommend that filing editor seek resolution from other channels such as WP:3O or WP:RFC. Sleddog116 (talk) 18:44, 26 July 2012 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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Filed by Indrek on 12:32, 14 July 2012 (UTC).
Dispute overview
The dispute is over a part of a sentence, shown in bold in the quote below (word-wrapped and refs removed for legibility, original revision is here): While the lower cost of 16:9 computer displays, along with the convenience of having the same aspect ratio in different devices, has been seen as a positive, many consider 16:9 to be inferior to 16:10 for productivity-oriented tasks (such as Internet browsing, editing documents or spreadsheets, and using professional design and engineering applications), which benefit more from vertical resolution, rather than horizontal. Urklistre's objections to this statement have, over the course of the dispute, been the following:
I have made a number of suggestions to reword the statement in a way that addresses any legitimate concerns, but Urklistre either outright rejected or simply ignored all of them, including one version that was in response to his own sole attempt at compromise [57] [58]. Further, Urklistre was unwilling to refrain from editing or removing the disputed content until the dispute is resolved, immediately reverting back to his preferred revision after the temporary protection expired [59] and insisting that, quote, "Everything that there is no consensus about should be removed" [60]. He also implied ulterior motives [61] behind my recommendation (which was based on WP:CONSENSUS and WP:PREFER) to keep the article as it was when it was protected [62]. Some examples of Urklistre's conduct during the discussion:
Users involved
Yes.
Resolving the dispute
Tried to discuss the issue on the talk page, filed an edit war / 3RR report, filed a request for a third opinion
By helping establish consensus on the following points:
Indrek (talk) 12:32, 14 July 2012 (UTC) 16:10 discussionDiscussion about the issues listed above takes place here. Remember to keep your comments calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.
(Comment from uninvolved editor) Hello; I am a regular volunteer here on the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. Thank you, Indrek, for your detailed introduction of the dispute. Before we begin working through your points, I would like to remind all of the involved disputants that no binding decisions are issued here. DRN is merely an informal process in which uninvolved editors (like myself) attempt to help disputants establish consensus. DRN is for content issues, not conduct. If you have conduct issues with another user that need to be addressed, the proper place for that is WP:WQA, but I think we can probably avoid that if we all avoid getting into personalities. Now, that being said - I would like to take some time and look at a few of the sources you provided above. I probably won't comment on the reliability of the sources yet; before I do anything, I would like to hear Urklistre's response to the above points. Cheers. Sleddog116 (talk) 15:15, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
This thread has been one week without discussion. The dispute resolution process requires all parties of a dispute to participate. If one side is unwilling to discuss the problem here, this dispute may need to be filed at other venues (in my opinion, this dispute could probably be settled by a third opinion). If no further discussion occurs within 24 hours, this thread will be closed. Sleddog116 (talk) 12:44, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
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Robert Stinnett
![]() | No discussion for over 3 days. Guy Macon (talk) 02:26, 27 July 2012 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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Dispute overview
I found this article randomly and noticed that there was criticism of one of his books that was sourced only from a user review on Amazon.com. I removed that as it doesn't belong in a biography in the first place, is potentially libelous, and belongs in the article "Pearl Harbor advance-knowledge debate". User TREKphiler apparently has strong feelings about this author and subject. He reverted my deletion twice. See the talk page. I just noticed that user Penguin 236 reverted my deletion saying I had not explained why. I did explain in a comment on tha page saying to see the talk page and in detail on the talk page. Users involved
Yes.
Resolving the dispute
Explained in detail why I deleted the disputed content on its talk page.
Decide whether or not that content is appropriate. Bob (talk) 14:27, 16 July 2012 (UTC) Robert Stinnett discussionDiscussion about the issues listed above takes place here. Remember to keep your comments calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.
Even if reliable sources that contradict Stinnett are cited, this biography is not the place for a fight over the book. There is a huge article, "Pearl Harbor advance-knowledge debate", that gets into much more background and detail. That is the place, not in a biography. I put a link to that article in the biography. Bob (talk) 14:19, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
If there is no response, this thread will be closed 24 hours after this time: July 23, 2012 at 17:02 (UTC) Reason: Appears to be stale or resolved. — I'm going to revert to my deletion unless there're further comments in the next few days. Bob (talk) 20:24, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
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The Zeitgeist Movement
![]() | No discussion for over 4 days. Guy Macon (talk) 02:36, 27 July 2012 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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Dispute overview
Disagreement on whether L. Susan Brown should be included in the 'See also' section. I believe the link should be included because, like the Zeitgeist movement (TZM), it seems Brown believes that the "monetary-market" economy must be replaced with a system based on equality among people, a moneyless and stateless system where e.g. exchange, barter, wage labor, private property and the profit motive would be eliminated. It seems that, like TZM, she believes the current socioeconomic system is structurally corrupt and unreformable. It seems that, like TZM, she believes an accumulation of monetary/ property wealth leads to centralization of power in the hands of a small elite. It seems that, like TZM, Brown believes the current wage-labor system must be abolished and replaced with a system in which people would be free to choose to perform voluntary activities and/or work fewer hours. Some of our secondary and primary sources (TZM documentaries, video lectures/ presentations, audio podcasts, newsletters, official blog, etc.) discuss ideas/ issues that seem very similar to sections of Brown's work. For example, Brown's essay Does Work Really Work? and the translation of the Globes article on TZM (to view the translation of the Globes article, please scroll all the way to the bottom of the page, which will take you to the translation of the TheMarker article, then scroll a little bit up, to view the translation of the Globes article. This DRN is only about L. Susan Brown. Users involved
Yes.
Resolving the dispute
We discussed on the talk page. It seems Tom may believe the link seems too peripheral to be useful to the reader, and more likely to confuse than clarify the subject. It seems Earl may be saying there is no connection except the usual suspects of cross connected tangential, and he wrote something about a maze. And it seems OpenFuture may believe the link is completely irrelevant. (It seems these were their responses to a larger group of links that I suggested for 'See also' which included Brown.) diff diff diff diff diff diff diff diff diff diff diff diff diff diff diff diff diff diff diff diff diff diff diff
Help resolve the dispute. Thanks. IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 23:41, 17 July 2012 (UTC) The Zeitgeist Movement discussionDiscussion about the issues listed above takes place here. Remember to keep your comments calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.
The statistics (e.g. that most of WP's editors are male) are WP's own statistics. From Wikipedia: "When multiple editors contribute to one topic or set of topics, there may arise a systemic bias, such as non-opposite definitions for apparent antonyms. In 2011 Wales noted that the unevenness of the coverage is the reflection of the demography of the editors, which predominantly consists of young male with high educations in the developed world (cf. above)[52]" Not only Wales, but other senior WP executives as well discussed the serious problem of low participation rates by women editors. Please see this NYT article, and this NYT Debate involving 7 women writers and 2 men. From the NYT article: "Jane Margolis, co-author of a book on sexism in computer science, “Unlocking the Clubhouse,” argues that Wikipedia is experiencing the same problems of the offline world, where women are less willing to assert their opinions in public." “In almost every space, who are the authorities, the politicians, writers for op-ed pages?” said Ms. Margolis, a senior researcher at the Institute for Democracy, Education and Access at the University of California, Los Angeles. ... "According to the OpEd Project, an organization based in New York that monitors the gender breakdown of contributors to “public thought-leadership forums,” a participation rate of roughly 85-to-15 percent, men to women, is common — whether members of Congress, or writers on The New York Times and Washington Post Op-Ed pages. It would seem to be an irony that Wikipedia, where the amateur contributor is celebrated, is experiencing the same problem as forums that require expertise. But Catherine Orenstein, the founder and director of the OpEd Project, said many women lacked the confidence to put forth their views. “When you are a minority voice, you begin to doubt your own competencies,” she said." VanIsaac of the WP:WikiProject Writing systems is correct. Among our secondary sources on TZM, only the Palm Beach Post and the RT TV interviews were by women. The HuffPo, NYT, Globes, TheMarker, VCReporter, etc. are written by males, and Wikipedia's coverage is overly masculine. The inclusion of Brown’s expertise, deep knowledge and perspective is helpful not just for the sake of fairness, but, more importantly, because it provides a female perspective that would supply depth and context to the TZM article. "Plato, Marx, The Matrix, John Lennon and many other things" are all irrelevant, because this DRN discussion is focused exclusively on L. Susan Brown. And WP: See also does not say anything about requiring 'See also' links to be e.g. a member or a spokesperson etc. If Brown was e.g. a spokesperson or a member of TZM, we would have discussed her work in the body of the TZM article itself, and included the link to the WP article on Brown in the body of the TZM article, obviating the consideration of including her in 'See also.' (Lastly, please note that everyone involved in this DRN thus far, i.e., Andy, Earl, Tom, OpenFuture, VanIsaac, and myself, are all males.) Regards, IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 11:41, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
How, exactly, would the link breach BLP policy? Thanks. IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 16:53, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
The "See also" section is just a place to park wikilinks to related subjects which really should be linked inline from prose in the article. If there's ever a dispute about a "See also" entry, you should propose an edit to the article to add the link inline, and make sure it has a reliable source supporting it. I agree that this DRR should be closed, primarily because that inline link proposal doesn't seem to have been tried. 75.166.200.250 (talk) 00:22, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
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Stephanie Adams
![]() | User:Hal 9000 Jr. has been blocked. Nothing to do Fasttimes68 (talk) 00:57, 19 July 2012 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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Filed by Hal 9000 Jr. on 23:34, 18 July 2012 (UTC).
Dispute overview
There is currently an excessive amount of contentious posting taking place on Talk:Stephanie Adams. The primary bone of contention seems to be over her teaching a Learning Annex course on "How to Marry Rich," the tone of which seems to suggest disparaging intent. Without relevant amplification, what's the point of inserting this information? And if maligning Stephanie Adams isn't the intention of those who support the insertion, then why are they so dogged in their attempts to add it? Admittedly, I visited the page because I'm a fan of the subject, and I was floored to find Armageddon on the talkpage. Obscenities and personal attacks are being hurled back and forth throughout, and no Wikipedia admin has done anything to bring this flagrant lack of professionalism to a halt. Please make a determination on this matter. Hal 9000 Jr. (talk) 23:34, 18 July 2012 (UTC) Users involved
Yes.
Resolving the dispute
None but to contact a Wikipedia admin for conflict resolution.
Make a determination on the matter. Hal 9000 Jr. (talk) 23:34, 18 July 2012 (UTC) Stephanie Adams discussionDiscussion about the issues listed above takes place here. Remember to keep your comments calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.
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Date Windowing deletion proposal and Shadowjams misconduct
![]() | wrong venue. Try WP:RFCC or |
Closed discussion |
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Filed by Fresheneesz on 02:16, 19 July 2012 (UTC).
Dispute overview
User:Shadowjams has repeatedly ignored WP:Assume good faith and WP:Speedy when marking pages for deletion and interacting with myself and other (completely unrelated) users. You can see clearly from his talk page that he completely ignores my attempts to discuss his deletion proposal of Date_windowing, and only responded after I started investigating his conduct with other users. I listed a few cases on his talk page where he has made incorrect edits and then either ignored the users who have come to his talk page to discuss them, or wasn't cooperative with those users.
Users involved
Yes
Resolving the dispute
I have attempted to talk to him about his proposal for speedy deletion on the talk page of the article, I've attempted to talk to him about his afd on his talk page, and I've attempted to talk to him about his conduct toward other users on his talk page.
I'm wondering if I'm perhaps misunderstanding the policies of assuming good faith and creating speedy deletions, and if not, informing me how I can deal with a non-cooperative administrator who I believe is hurting the wikipedia community. Fresheneesz (talk) 02:16, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
Date Windowing deletion proposal and Shadowjams misconduct discussionDiscussion about the issues listed above takes place here. Remember to keep your comments calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.
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Misha B, Talk:Misha B
![]() | Resolved. (Steven Zhang) |
Closed discussion |
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Filed by Zoeblackmore on 22:11, 25 July 2012 (UTC).
Dispute overview
A POV has been applied. I think its unfair as I have honestly tried to remain neutral, and truthful especially regarding a false accusation made against the subject. I have looked at other artists pages and tried to follow their examples. Users involved
The are a few anti-Misha B folks online who write abusive things on a youtube videos, I am not sure if one of them is in that cateogary
Yes
Resolving the dispute
it keeps coming up, we do not agree, I feel I am being unfairly criticized as a new editor, trying to get it right.
by adding fresh independent comments, if more folks say I got it wrong then I will listen. This will help me as I am unwell. ...Zoebuggie☺whispers 22:11, 25 July 2012 (UTC) Misha B, Talk:Misha B discussionDiscussion about the issues listed above takes place here. Remember to keep your comments calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.
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