Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard/Archive 13
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Royal Hospital School
![]() | This seems to have been resolved, and both users seem to have committed to being civil and following Wikipedia's content policies. If there are any further problems on the page, feel free to list another dispute here. Mr. Stradivarius (talk) 12:09, 1 December 2011 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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Dispute overview
Two users with a conflict of interest have been frequently removing content from the article and adding their association's email address to the body of the article. They have so far not discussed their behaviour on the talk pages where it has been mentioned. Users involved
Yes.
Resolving the dispute
I have noted the issue on both the article and user talk pages but have received no reply. Edits have been re-inserted since I made the talk page edits.
Is it reasonable to delete an (albeit uncited) statement which is relevant and which all parties know to be true? Is it OK to insert an email address into the body of an article in that way? Is it OK to have a reference to a facebook group in that way (does this differ from having as link to the RHSA's own website?) JustResignGC (talk) 04:06, 20 November 2011 (UTC) Royal Hospital School discussionDiscussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.
In addition, both Ian R R and Anthal1845 have persisted in adding their email address into the body of the article inviting those interested in the RHSA to contact them, which is unencylopedic. Furthermore, in the box on the right to the article were links to two online resources for RHS alumni - the first being the RHSA and the second being a popular and well-established Facebook group called RHS Arms. Ian R R and Anthal1845 have persistently removed the second of these links. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] I should state my own conflict of interest. I am an administrator of RHS Arms. Quite separately to that I am a member of RHSA and have been involved for some time in a dispute between members of RHSA and the general committee. However, I believe my edits have at all times been within the wikipedia guidelines. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JustResignGC (talk • contribs) 05:54, 20 November 2011 (UTC) (edit conflict) I am a neutral party in this dispute, and I have never seen the article before, and have no conflicts of interest. This dispute looks like it can be solved quite easily by paying attention to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. I'll take each of your concerns in turn:
I hope this comment has been helpful! If you have any questions, feel free to ask them below. All the best — Mr. Stradivarius ♫ 06:05, 20 November 2011 (UTC) Also, to clarify on that last point, the school's official site should go in both the infobox and the external links section, but not in the article body. — Mr. Stradivarius ♫ 06:10, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
I edited certain sentences on this article because they were demonstrably untrue. For instance it says that "the School has stopped collecting subscriptions", this is not in fact the case as the school is still collecting subscriptions and has no plans to stop over the next two years. It also says that new pupils no longer automatically join the RHSA - this is misleading as they haven't "automatically" joined for decades. Writing it in this way makes it look as if is a recent thing; it isn't and hasn't been for decades. Also one of the "citations" is not openable and is no longer on the website it points to sothat has been removed. Its a shame that "RHSA Member" hasn't the courage to admit who he or she is instead of hiding behind that name, especially as some of the administrators on RHS Arms Are not RHSA Members. He or she knows who I am yet they haven't the courage to step forward.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Ian R R (talk • contribs) 17:38, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
I believe this to be a fair resolution. Ian
Ian — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ian R R (talk • contribs) 13:02, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
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Lemonade Mouth
![]() | Closing as stale. Feel free to list another dispute here if you have more problems. Mr. Stradivarius (talk) 12:03, 1 December 2011 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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Dispute overview
Well... I'm not really sure if I'm asking the right place, but an anonymous user has pretty much been going crazy adding information to this article. It's not that the edits are in bad faith (at least not from my viewpoint), but at lot of them add redundant, misspelled, and/or badly worded information, most of the time where it's not needed (particularly in the character sections, which, in my opinion are overdetailed as it is). I really don't want to get in an edit war with this user, though I fear I may have already done so. Users involved
I'm not sure, but I might have broken 3RR (if I have, please feel free to block me).
Yes.
Resolving the dispute
Posted a message to the user's talk page, asking why the user feels the information they are adding should be in the article.
I'm not sure if I'm even asking about this situation in the right place, but I hope you can help figure out what exactly should be done. Purplewowies (talk) 04:03, 21 November 2011 (UTC) Lemonade Mouth discussionDiscussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.
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WP:MMANOT, WT:MMANOT
![]() | Reporting user has been suggested multiple avenues on how they might advance from this posting including WP:MFD,WP:RFC, and WP:RFC/U. Hasteur (talk) 16:24, 1 December 2011 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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This user clearly shows signs of thinking he owns the WP:MMANOT page. He clearly shows no interest in working along side fellow Wikipedians, refusing to listen to any open suggestions, clearly this user values his own opinion over to those who have fresh ideas from what he says. I was offering some very useful suggestions at the WT:MMANOT discussion page, as with the criteria on the WP:MMANOT as it is right now, only whatever is considered a 'top tier' promotion is safe, whereas any other promotion, such as BAMMA and EliteXC are put on shaky grounds. He refuses to even acknowledge what I'm saying, going as far as saying that it is me who isn't open for suggestion. Now I've always had the best interests of all pages on Wikipedia, and I am a team player so I cannot see how he came up with that theory, just because I questions the criteria on WP:MMANOT, a page I should point out that HE created. I noticed that many of the users who offer suggestions always ask him, as if he owns the page, which is a direct violation of WP:OWN. No-one should have to ask for permission from him to edit the page, especially as it seems that he is the one with the final say everytime. Here is the last comment he put on the WT:MMANOT page - 'Actually, the reason I haven't bothered to respond to all your statements is because it would be a waste of my time. It's clear you have a viewpoint (which you repeat/repost over and over) and that no facts will dissuade you from your beliefs. Since you've made it clear you value no opinions but your own, why should I bother? Answer--I shouldn't.' After he left this comment, I put in a reply on the page, stating that my intentions are in the best interests of MMA subjects on Wikipedia, which is why I ended by saying that we need to work together on it, not fight each other at every corner of each suggestion or each remark. After 5 days of my reply to that comment, he has not written back, so this is why I have taken this to ANI. The user believes that anything that follows the criteria that he created is the best system to maintain MMA promotions and fighters. If you read the WT:MMANOT page, you would see towards the end of the page, a user states that promotions and fighters who meet WP:GNG, which as we all know is the real 'trump card' when it comes to deciding whether a page can remain on Wikipedia or not, is what really should be followed. The user overlooks this in favour of what his criteria says, and chooses which particular criteria trumps the very basic criteria any page needs to meet. For example, he has had numerous pages, such as Reagan Penn, who is the younger brother of BJ Penn and also has plenty of independent sources about him, deleted, whereas he would keep a fighter who hardly meets WP:GNG, just because s/he meets a certain criteria on the WP:MMANOT page, which mostly is 'the fighter has fought in a top tier organisation'. Now there has been a debate about this on WT:MMANOT, in which I use the example of Travis Fulton. Travis has fought in professional MMA 307 times, and only three times he has fought for what is considered a top tier promotion. He has fought at UFC 20 and UFC 21 as well as once in the WEC, yet every other fight he has had has been with promotions that do not meet the criteria set on this page in question. There are hardly any sources reliable, multiple media sources that talks about Travis Fulton and if you look that his page, you would see that he has also done Boxing and Vale Tudo, yet there are only FOUR (4) references on him, two of them are for the two sports I just mentioned, one dates back to 1999 and the other one is probably his most famous fight which was his latest one as of 23rd November 2011. This guy clearly fails WP:GNG, yet he chooses to defend this guy and says that he is notable. Notable only in his criteria more like. I have called many times for the WP:MMANOT page to be rewritten so not only will it put WP:GNG first before any other criteria, but soften the criteria already there. He claims that people only want to know about the big leagues and the smaller ones don't matter and it is this reason he chooses whether a page is notable. Anyone who at least competes once in the UFC, or Bellator or Strikeforce is notable in his mind but he clearly has it wrong. The most worrying thing about this is the fact that other users ask permission from him to keep a page on Wikipedia because it meets his criteria. Clearly this user needs to realise that policies and criteria he writes doesn't trump what WP:GNG states is notable, and someone need to remind of this, as well as loosen his grip on WP:MMANOT. I have put down suggestions how to improve the page, even going a head with a near full and completed recommended change to the page, changing some of the stricter criteria, soften them up and for criteria supporting deletion, and even mentioned that a page that already meets WP:GNG can remain on Wikipedia with no issues attached. Again he refuses to comment on this and says it is a useless system. I know that regardless this page could always be overlooked in favour of WP:GNG but at least it wouldn't appear too strict on those recognised as anything less than a top tier promotion. This is a big issue for any MMA related Topic and it needs to be cleared up pronto. Thank You so much for reading this, please help us out, and remember all whole discussion can be found on WT:MMANOT. BigzMMA 12:16, 23 November 2011 (UTC) Users involved
Papaursa seems to have the main control over the WP:MMANOT page, in which anything mentioned he must agree with to be part of the page, a violation of WP:OWN.
I have made Papaursa now aware that he has been reported to ANI through his talk page.
Resolving the dispute
I tried to calm the situation down a bit through the WT:MMANOT page, saying that we shouldn't be fighting over every little thing when it can be resolved, however, he has refused to reply back, citing he has no interest in listening to what I have to say.
To have the User realise that WP:GNG is the system that all MMA related topics must follow first before any criteria on WP:MMANOT. Also the user needs to loosen his grip on the page and allow the criteria on the page to be less strict. BigzMMA 12:16, 23 November 2011 (UTC) WP:MMANOT, WT:MMANOT discussionDiscussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand. Clerk's Comment: BigzMMA, brevity is paramount. Your rambling posts don't really seem to have a point other than to complain that the guideline (Not Policy) is not right. Having read through the talk page I have a couple observations.
I'll post more discussion once Papaursa responds to your allegations. Hasteur (talk) 14:08, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
I should point out that I began writing in there from the 15th November, not the 18th. Also I have legitimate points about this, Papaursa has been fighting me from the beginning of the discussion about changing things for the better. I have used WP:GNG as the base of my case, as he is using his guidelines to determine whether a promotion/fighter is notable, where he chooses to rate someone who has been in the UFC over someone that meets WP:GNG. My argument isn't rambling, but very detailed points as to why these guidelines hasn't been working and it needs to change. The user in question hasn't offered any suggestion as to a way forward with this, instead attacking my suggestions and even me, accusing me of being one minded, and the truth is that this page hardly matters to the main criteria all pages must meet. For this reason I would like to see this guideline either deleted or rewritten as for those who follow this as the system to determine notability, it can be made clear to them that no matter what, as long it meets WP:GNG, it is notable. The page is flawed and the user is enforcing a flawed system on a topic many people are very passionate about. BigzMMA (talk) 15:30, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
P.S. He was upset at me and wanted to know why I hadn't responded to every point he had made at WT:MMANOT, so I told him the truth. That also seemed to upset him. He shouldn't ask questions if he doesn't want an honest answer. Papaursa (talk) 03:50, 25 November 2011 (UTC) Okay I'm going to address that last point first just because it crawls under my skin, which is this thing your saying that your comments 'upsetting me', I asked you to address my points, which many were direct answers to your points and comments, so if anything, it is you that got upset over my comments. Your refusal to answer me was the last straw, in which I messaged different unbiased users to get their opinion of how to take it from there, and left a message to try to have us take a peaceful way of moving forward, yet again you refused to answer me, but I left it 5 days before I brought it on ANI in case it was just that you weren't able to read it within the time. I can take an honest answer, why else did you think I didn't take your answers then? Now then back from the top. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ultimate Challenge MMA, paragraph 6, User:Osubuckeyeguy says this 'The question isn't whether the org employs a few notable fighters, it is whether the organization itself receive coverage by independent sources and passes the other criteria outlined at WP:MMANOT.' And then Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ryan Shamrock (fighter), in which Papaursa starts the conversation by saying 'I am also nominating the following related pages because none of these fighters meet the notability criteria at WP:MMANOT.' I should point out that he nominated Philip De Fries, who was just two weeks away from making his UFC debut, so clearly the user has proved that he does not look for information on whoever he nominated, otherwise he would not have put him for deletion in the first place. Also was used again later on in the page by User:Mdtemp, saying ' None of these fighters currently meet the notability criteria at WP:MMANOT'. It is also worth pointing out that he nominated, and somehow successfully, deleted Alan Omer (two time BAMMA veteran, first BAMMA World Featherweight Champion, multiple articles on him about being 'Prospect to Watch) And finally Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Andrew Leone, which again he states 'I am also nominating the following related pages because none of these fighters pass WP:MMANOT either.' He nominated guys like Tim Newman (soon to be 3 time BAMMA veteran), Jake Bostwick and Jamaine Facey (both a total combined of 14 Cage Rage fights (11 Bostwick, 3 Facey)), Diego Vital (two time BAMMA veteran and former title challenger) and Reagan Penn (brother of BJ Penn, many independent coverage reports on him and his fights, two time ProElite veteran). Clearly there is no information gathering going on when Papaursa nominates pages for deletion. Now Papaursa, let me ask you one question, if someone added in a notable organisation into either the top or second tier organisations list without your knowledge or consent, would you leave it where it is, knowing it belongs there anyway? Its just because that Osubuckeyeguy asked on the talk page if DEEP should be added to the second tier organisations, which by the way, it meets all criteria supporting notability by what they main page says. I agreed that it should, but no-one else has took part in that conversation, not even you, so I can assume that, with a 2-0 vote in favour of it, I can add DEEP to the second tier page, which as I am writing this I ready have. Now if your right in saying that your not the overlord of the page, then I can expect to see DEEP in the second tier organisations every time I look at the page? Again I have to say that I messaged a couple, not '20' as you stated, of users what I should do, because your lack of fair co-operation in dealing with discussion on WT:MMANOT means that you are giving the impression that you control the page and that you are refusing to even listen to suggestions because it suits you to look tough to anyone who reads the conversations. The page may not necessary be your idea, but remember Caesar didn't create the Roman Republic, yet he took it all and turned it into the Roman Empire, something that can be said about how you treated the page since it's first conception, now you dictate whether a page can remain on here base on the criteria written on there, which, by looking that the pages you nominated in the not too distant past, you clearly prove that you don't look for information on them before you randomly nominate pages. Now I am not going say I've been perfect at this, but I know when things are not right about pages up for deletion, you say that many people agreed with all the deletions, yet if you took the time to read some of the comment, you'd see things like 'Why Delete Bashir Ahmad', in which the guy defending the page says that the guy meets all the criteria written on the WP:MMANOT page, has multiple articles based on him from Bloody Elbows and Sherdog, The fighter is a pioneer in his home country and is recognised throughout the nation yet no-one answered his comment before deletion. Also another user points out that Alan Omer was the first BAMMA World Featherweight Champion and a two time veteran of the promotion, a promotion that meets all criteria supporting it's own notability through WP:NOT and WP:MMANOT. He has been part of many 'Prosect Watch' articles by Bloody Elbows and Sherdog, again both sites are agreed upon by Wikipedia to be reliable sources of information and there are also articles that talks about him being/becoming champion for the promotion, so again proof that you shouldn't always take the words of the majority, especially seen as no-one else seemed to be looking for information on any of the fighters in question. Yes it does say "it is a specific supplement to the overall policy of Wikipedia:Notability relating to mixed martial arts and in no way supersedes it." on there, but it doesn't mean that your following it, lets be honest you wrote things like this just so you couldn't be accused of what you are being right now, yet your history of referring pages for deletion on the bases of WP:MMANOT proves otherwise in your case. I know I already addressed this but I'd say it again, basically I have not got upset by your remarks and comments, I addressed them all with very interesting point that requires your feedback to prove me wrong (as you seem to actually want to fight me at every corner of each comment being made), yet when you not only chose to ignore them but to say you shouldn't answer them when I asked you why you haven't talked about them, that was just insulting for anyone who asks anything on this page, as well as proof that you do feel like you have some majority control over the runnings of the page. I find that your control over the page needs to be removed, and allow independent, unbiased yet knows many things in the area of MMA topics users to take responsibility of the overall running of WP:MMANOT and WT:MMANOT. It's like I said, people use this system to determine whether a page is notable or not, and with you disallowing anyone to rewrite some of the strict guidelines in there, I think it's safe to say that a new editor/s should be in control overview this page, otherwise it will get to the point where only 'top tier' promotion are allowed on here and fighters would have to fight 3 times for them to even be allowed a page on here (I doubt it will happen because of WP:GNG, but the fact that it can happen on that page means it needs to be reviewed). BigzMMA (talk) 11:17, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
Okay then, here are the issues -
That is pretty much it really, just heavily improve WP:MMANOT and loosen Papaursa grip on the page. BigzMMA (talk) 12:50, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
What I want is for you to stop acting like everything to do with MMA has to go through your approval first. Your not even an administrator yet you feel you can edit whatever you want and feel that anything must seek your approval before even meeting a page. You cannot possibly say that WP:MMANOT is anywhere near a perfect system, hell I even admitted that my suggested layout isn't exactly the Mona Lisa but it answers many of the problems with the criteria set out now, plus I have already stated under it that anyone can help with improving it still by adding in their suggestions. Remember I did said (and you can still see it) that it follows the same/similar criteria set out by you, but tweaked enough to answer some of it's problems. Threatened 4 editors? Because of their (you included) discriminative actions, I said I was going to take action against you, which you damn knew well that I meant I was going to report you to ANI, I was just beaten to the punch and once blocked, no-one tried to listen to me again. Yes, those 9 editors didn't understand that UCMMA is a major player in the MMA community, especially in the UK MMA Scene. Everyone here recognises them as one of the 'Top 3' in this country, along with BAMMA and Cage Warriors. There are plenty of articles out there on them, but you know, I'm tired of repeating all this to people who don't bother to look it up. My case for them is on WT:MMANOT if you want to know my case, matter of fact its worth pointing out that Astudent0 was so impressed with my case for it on the page, he suggested that I put it in my Sandbox, edit it a bit and tidy up the references so that I can prove to the Administrators that review it that it is what I've been saying all along - A notable organisation. And remember, Astudent0 has the same issues against me as you do, so for him to agree with me on it means I've been right about it all along. 'while adding nearly 60K to WT:MMANOT managed to never see value in any opinion he didn't already have'? Lets be honest every point I made on that page is a good point, nothing on there is crap talking and, if anything, its you that doesn't appreciate the honesty or the accuracy of another one's opinion. You choose the base your arguments to keep a fighter on Wikipedia based on 'whether he fought for a top tier promotion' I have already pointed out that that system is a massive flop with my example of Travis Fulton, yet you disregard what I said and instead just added in a small amount of information about his boxing record. So when I say there is a trump card system within the page on how to decide a notable promotion/fighter, and you deny it but say things like 'I'd take a single UFC fight over multiple articles on the person' then tell me truthfully is that the sort of user who has the best interests of the pages at heart? Your choosing what to follow and its being proved the more you engage into this conversation. And you think your suitable to overview a page like that? The only trump card that should existed with this page involved is GNG beats MMANOT, and the majority of criteria met on there beats the minority of criteria met on there. Majority consensus doesn't mean that they are right, it means that the majority agrees to something. It is because of this system that, for example, in criminal courts innocent people get sentenced for murder, whilst rapists get away from it, just because the majority agreed to the decision. I would of though you'd understood something like that, guess not. And just like the example of consensus I used, I appreciate the system, so long as the decision is the right one. BigzMMA (talk) 12:45, 28 November 2011 (UTC) It has just come to my attention on WT:MMA that many, many notable organisation's event pages are being deleted or forced to be merged. Promotions like Bellator, World Victory Road and even a UFC event has been either deleted or forced merged. And guess who is part of this Hasteur? thats right our old buddy Papaursa. These pages meet GNG and MMANOT, yet he continues to vote delete on these pages. Its what I've been saying all along, he hasn't got the best interest of MMA topics on Wikipedia, he has abused his powers given to him to edit pages and the choice to delete them, for this reason I not only I want to see his grip taken off MMANOT, but to place a lengthly ban on him and the other users who voted delete so other users can repair the damage they have inflicted on Wikipedia. BigzMMA (talk) 13:20, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
Here is the AfD discussions he participated in that he is looking to get very notable events deleted. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/World Victory Road Presents: Sengoku 4, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/UFC Fight Night: Stevenson vs Guillard, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pride Total Elimination 2003. This is not a personal attack, as I am showing you evidence to prove what the user is doing. It is like you don't bother to read anything I say at all Papaursa. I have already stated that the people who voted delete in the AfD discussion for UCMMA clearly weren't looking for the information they are told to do before deciding whether to delete or not. The difference between this and the AfD discussion you take part in for deletion are notable, they are from notable promotions, ones that you agreed are notable, and you believe that just because something huge like someone getting killed or Michale Jackson suddenly moonwalked into the ring/cage didn't happen it means it ain't worth keeping them on there. The UFC Fight Nights have been more than just the odd one or two, as we can see there have been many of them since the first mone the UFC did, and even though they are not as common as the main UFC events, doesn't mean to say that they aren't notable events. Because you and the other users who vote delete for these pages have proved that you haven't got the best interests of MMA on here, I believe it is wrong for you to be part of these discussion that require serious choices to be made about some very big MMA promotions/events/fighters/personel. And I have pointed out many WP policys you violated, once again not looking into what I typed in here, I hope Hasteur takes note of this, if you are not reading everything on his discussion, then you show no desire of a means to make a forward step. The fact that you try to break down everything I say to a single, near inaccurate sentence shows this. BigzMMA (talk) 10:23, 29 November 2011 (UTC) WP:MMANOT Arbitrary Break #1BigzMMA, thank you for posting specific examples. Let's look at them for a moment
Just because someone is not on the prevailing side of an AfD doesn't mean that their viewpoint was wrong to begin with. In addition just because consensus establishes against your viewpoint does not mean that the consensus was wrong. Since you don't seem to be able to come up with a solution for how to move forward and are fixated on the "Papaursa is always wrong and should be banished from MMA topics" I'm going to recomend that you prepare a Request for Comment/User posting. Couple bits of advice.
If there are no objections, I'll close this in 24 hours as I've attempted to mediate between you and Papaursa without any real success Hasteur (talk) 15:25, 29 November 2011 (UTC) The fact that Papaursa isn't using anything to explain why he'd rather have it deleted rather than work along with the users defending it shows that he has no real desire to make a reasonable decision on the subjects. It doesn't mean its right either yet the only way to move forward on these debates is to just leave them on Wikipedia, so if anything is needed to be added to these pages, then it can be made possible to do so. Also you'd have to look right up the page to see the Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ultimate Challenge MMA, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ryan Shamrock (fighter), and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Andrew Leone, you'd see evidence in which Papaursa and other users have used MMANOT as the reason to why the pages in question should be deleted. I am willing to come to a solution, the problem is that Papaursa is refusing to accept any wrong doing of his own, he still denies he feels he has a duty to overview the MMANOT page amongst other MMA pages, and clearly he has shown he will not back up a bit away from MMA topics on Wikipedia to allow other users to improve the content of MMANOT, all of which is hurting the pages involved. Also he is unwilling to co-operate with me in trying to improve the MMANOT page, something that more people other than myself want to see happen, yet he uses his own influence over the page to deny this from happening. If he continues to refuse a fair co-operation in dealing with the page, I will consider your proposal to have the page deleted. Thank you for trying though, I would of thought he'd attempt to be reasonable in here, instead he uses this as a way to insult me and questions me at every turn. I will wait until mid-day tomorrow (local time) to see whether he can come to an agreement with me on the subject, or if I have to call for the page's deletion. BigzMMA (talk) 17:22, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
I will remove any content that you may feel is a personal attack towards Papaursa Hasteur, so long as he does the same, by looking up the page since the start of this ANI conversation he has made sly comments about me also don' forget, and I find that, in respect, this choice words are in some ways a personal attack, as he is using past content to influence your opinion on myself. Again I will stress I am happy to remove said comments so long as the same request goes to him also. And m.o.p, thank you for your comment, I have learned a little bit whilst blocked, but by looking at how he chooses to keep pages based on which criteria on MMANOT more, in which he preferred choice is one that doesn't follow GNG. I believe that this is a serious issue as he refuses to acknowledge GNG before MMANOT. I will start to look into RFC/U to see how to approach it. BigzMMA (talk) 12:36, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
I've just finished reading through this discussion, and I agree with a point that Hasteur made further up the page that the best thing to do in this case would be to take the page to RfC. I would say to include a neutral, short summary of the disagreements so far on, and to make sure you include a "threaded discussion" section, so that the initial comments section doesn't become bogged down by long comments. As the page is a guide to notability, you can probably advertise the RfC on WT:Notability, and hopefully that will bring you a high calibre of commenter. If you have any more questions, feel free to ask them below. Best — Mr. Stradivarius ♫ 11:57, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
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Andrew Landeryou
![]() | Premature. Page protected, talk it out at the article talk page. Steven Zhang 06:01, 5 December 2011 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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Dispute overview
There are a number of problems with the article as it was until previously. Details of the subject's life that were negative (like his well-documented bankruptcy) were deleted. The fact that his bankruptcy is now discharged (highly relevant given that he publishes a website that makes highly controversial claims about people) was deleted. The subject's birthdate was removed and the year changed (according to publicly-searchable records of ITSA, his date of birth is 19 September 1969, and yet the page keeps being changed to 1970). The wording was changed from neutral POV in the subject's favour - from "blogger" to "journalist", although he's the only one who describes himself as such. Dubious material like claimed website hits were added. Two paragraphs were dedicated to "stories" he claims he "broke". The material in the quote boxes was more advertising than encyclopaedic (it wouldn't be surprising to find on the back cover if he wrote a book) and duplicated more balanced quotes included in the article itself. And when I restored this material - not originally created by me, but well referenced - suddenly a series of anonymous IPs kept reverting it. No discussion on the talk page, just reversion. Then the page was locked to registered users only, and a user "Caterann" was suddenly created to delete the material. We need an editor to formally tidy up the article, and make sure all the relevant material is included, and that as soon as we all stop looking at it it doesn't immediately get deleted, as looks like having happened after the last edit dispute on this article. Users involved
Caterann has not discussed any edits - just simply reverted them.
Yes.
Resolving the dispute
I have raised the issue on the talk page, and it's been ignored. I have also raised it on Caterann's talk page.
fix the article and then lock it. Garth M (talk) 05:07, 5 December 2011 (UTC) Andrew Landeryou discussionDiscussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.
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Technocracy, Technocracy movement
![]() | Premature. Insufficient talk page discussion about the content issue (none on article talk page, one reply by Newuser2011 on his talk page). — TransporterMan (TALK) 15:44, 5 December 2011 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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Dispute overview
User 'Newuser2011' is attempting what seems to be a largely arbitrary edit of the summary of the Technocracy article such that it becomes contradictory and difficult to understand. Users involved
This user does not appear to have a genuine interest in contributing to Wikipedia, but rather a specific agenda towards this topic.
Yes. Resolving the dispute
Added a question regarding editing bias on the users talk page. Have tried undoing the article.
Provide a third party assessment of the changes Newuser2011 is insisting upon, and deciding whether or not the previous content was sufficient. 126.159.109.39 (talk) 03:27, 5 December 2011 (UTC) "Technocracy", "Technocracy movement" discussionDiscussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.
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London Heathrow Airport
![]() | Not yet discussed on Talk page. IP editor on the edge of 3RR and not availing themselves of Page History. Gave information about how to discuss this so that they could come to a resolution on the talk page of the article Hasteur (talk) 22:03, 5 December 2011 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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Dispute overview
Air India destinations out of Heathrow; on the Heathrow timetable, it clearly states that Air India also serves Amritsar and Kolkata out of Heathrow via Delhi, but someone keeps deleting these two destinations. Users involved
Clerk Notice Yes
Resolving the dispute
Can you please stop this from happening, as I'm at risk of being blocked because apparently, I'm making a mistake, despite it clearly stating that Air India serves Amritsar and Kolkata via Delhi out of Heathrow Airport on the Heathrow timetable. 82.44.94.230 (talk) 21:38, 5 December 2011 (UTC) London Heathrow Airport discussionDiscussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.
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History of pottery in the Southern Levant, History of pottery in Palestine
![]() | Closed as referred to Requested Moves, see closing comments, below. — TransporterMan (TALK) 16:59, 22 November 2011 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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Dispute overview
Recently, the article History of Pottery in the Southern Levant was moved to History of Pottery in Palestine It had been under the title History of Pottery in the Southern Levant for around 5 years, and it had been my understanding that this was in order to keep the article NPOV. I am currently in a dispute with the mover on the article talk page and was wondering if anyone would be able to assist regarding the proper naming of the article. Thanks Drsmoo (talk) 02:37, 19 November 2011 (UTC) Users involved
Yes.
Resolving the dispute
Discussion on going on History of Palestine talk page as well as a discussion initiated by Oncenawhile on my personal talk page. Brought the issue to the NPOV noticeboard, and it was suggested that I bring it here.
More opinions Drsmoo (talk) 21:54, 20 November 2011 (UTC) History of pottery in the Southern Levant, History of pottery in Palestine discussion(It should be noted in passing that pursuant to both WP:POVTITLE and WP:RNEUTRAL, it is acceptable to use non-neutral terms as redirects to a neutrally-named article.) There is a clear controversy involved in this case, Palestinian nationalism, but the term "Palestine" is unlike the examples given which clearly involve hot-button words such as massacre and scandal and, later in WP:POVTITLE pejorative nicknames such as Octomom and Antennagate. The question is, then simply this: Is Palestine such a commonly–accepted name for this region that its very "commonness" overcomes any apparent support it might imply for Palestinian nationalism? I'm not, frankly, sure of the right answer to this, but I would note — and these are just observations, not an assertions
I'm not at all certain of how the question should be answered. One issue which ought to also be considered is whether, if the question is to be answered, whether it should be answered just for this one article or for the whole of Wikipedia. I would invite the opinions of my fellow mediators on these issues. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 17:29, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
@Oncenawhile: Saying @both: My colleague, Mr. Stradivarius, makes a good point in the Soccer in Australia dispute, below. Since this is a naming dispute, the best venue to obtain active discussion on this matter would be at Requested moves. I've taken the liberty of listing this there so as to get the discussion started. Please feel free to supplement what I've said at Talk:History_of_pottery_in_Palestine#Requested_move, but in light of the volume of what's been said already, I'd suggest that you might be best served by just letting your existing arguments speak for you. Best regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 16:59, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
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Talk:Natalie Wood
![]() | Conduct, not content dispute. Closed at request of listing party. — TransporterMan (TALK) 17:50, 6 December 2011 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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Dispute overview
Total frustration has brought me here. After being told not to (based on talk-page guidelines), editor MathewTownsend insists copying and pasting large portions of discussion from other talk pages and noticeboards on the talk page for the Natalie Wood article. He is now reverting/edit warring over the content. I have tried to get him to understand policy on this by providing links to talk page guidelines (along with guidelines and policy on other various matters he demonstrates a lack of undertstanding on). There is a plethora of issues with this editor, but for now, the article talk page cluttering is the most recent, and I believe, most disruptive. While I probably haven't handled all disputes with the editor in the best way, I would like to see others attempt to work with him because I've become ineffective in doing so with him (and because I'm out of patience). His level of non-AGF and incivility has increased over the last 24 hours. I tried to get some advice on this at WQA yesterday - to no avail. Other related places to look at the progression of things in regard to the disruptive talk page editing can be seen in the following links: Users involved
Yes.
Resolving the dispute
I have posted numerous times on this editor's talk page - including edit warring warnings. Nothing seems to phase him.
Other voices. He seems to think I am out to get him (which I'm not) so anything I say to him is akin to talking to a brick wall at this point. Lhb1239 (talk) 22:54, 3 December 2011 (UTC) Talk:Natalie Wood discussionDiscussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.
Mathew - none of this is about winning. If that's what you think Wikipedia will be for you, you're in for a huge disappointment. Wikipedia editors are fickle. Those who support you today can (and will) just as quickly throw you under the bus. Being here is supposed to be about building an encyclopedia - you might wnat to try focusing on that, not how many "supporters" you think you have. Lhb1239 (talk) 03:04, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
I am a mediator/clerk here at DRN. As it says in the instructions, above, DRN is for content disputes and only handles conduct disputes when they're marginal and incidental to a content dispute. The Dispute overview section mentions a content dispute, but all the specific statements and responses here are about conduct. Unless the parties choose to stop talking about the conduct issues and bring forward and discuss a content dispute, I will close this discussion as being inappropriate for this forum. If, on the other hand, they desire additional dispute resolution on the conduct issues, it would appear to me on a quick look that RFC/U or ANI are probably your next stop. Unless someone wants to bring forward a content dispute in the next 24 hours, I will close this thread. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 15:01, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
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Insanity defense
![]() | Closed, no prior discussion. Guidelines state, "This noticeboard is not for disputes which have been carried out only through edit summaries or which have not received substantial discussion on a talk page." Raise issue on article talk page, if no response, for simple evaluation consider WP:EA or to get other editors involved if opposing editor will not discuss try RFC. — TransporterMan (TALK) 22:00, 6 December 2011 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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Dispute overview
I placed two external reference examples for the "citation needed" on the Insanity_defense#Psychiatric_treatments page. The existing text in Insanity_defense#Psychiatric_treatments started with
My two external citations are Rodney Yoder and Albert Haines. Yoder did several years in a psychiatric hospital for a minor crime. Haines still is in a psychiatric hospital and has been for 25 years. He did a minor crime. 1)12:58, 24 November 2011 I placed Rodney Yoder. Removed by editor "Doc_insanity" 2)11:22, 28 November 2011 I put it back, with the addition reference of Albert Haines. Removed by editor "Doc_insanity" 3)14:21, 29 November 2011 Sleddog116 put it back in. Removed by editor "Doc_insanity" 4)10:47, 6 December 2011 I put it back in. Removed by editor "Doc_insanity" Users involved
Doc_insanity wrote on his own page he does not understand the rules of Wikipedia.
Yes , on his talk page.
Resolving the dispute
None have happened, as Doc_insanity and I are diametrically opposed. Doc_insanity should have placed the request for deletion of the citations he objected to, on the talk page.
1)I would like a third party to evaluate my addition. Is it valid? and 2) Inform Doc_insanity that he can not make unlimited removals. Mark v1.0 (talk) 21:37, 6 December 2011 (UTC) Insanity defense discussionDiscussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.
Mark v 1, please don't put such inaccuracies into the discussion. Where have I posted that I don't understand the rules of wikipedia? Not sure how you're contributing to a dispute resolution with the way you've presented your case - it sounds more like you're asking for a partial decisions favouring you! I've explained the basis for removing an inappropriate reference which doesn't prove the point made. If you mentioned an example then used that citation as support, that would be different. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Doc insanity (talk • contribs) 21:52, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
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Zoophilia
![]() | Closing as stale, but I'll keep an eye on the article. Steven Zhang Join the DR army! 00:00, 9 December 2011 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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Dispute overview
Another user and I cannot agree on content of article, and we keep reverting each other back and forth. I want the edit war to end, but I also don't want to leave the article in its current state with lots of lost information (which is what the other user wants). Users involved
User insists that I am "pro-zoophilia" even though I am trying to deal with the article from a neutral-POV. User constantly reverts edits and erases large chunks of the article claiming that such chunks are "original research" when in fact those chunks are cited by mostly scholarly sources. I want the edit war to end.
Yes.
Resolving the dispute
Discussion on talk page is going in circles and is not resolving anything
Stop the edit war, allow the article to be brought back to the way it was on November 12, 2011 (before the edit war began) Plateau99 (talk) 22:46, 17 November 2011 (UTC) Zoophilia discussionDiscussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.
To prevent me and Someone963852 from reverting each other indefinitely, a solution should be reached Plateau99 (talk) 23:26, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
I agree with Steven Zhang's assessment here. I think if the question was purely about the question of whether to use zoophilia or zoosexuality, then we could deal with it here, or maybe send it to an RfC. As it is, though, there appears to be other content issues at work here as well, and so I think mediation might be a better fit. Have you considered submitting a request for a mediator at the Mediation Cabal? Best — Mr. Stradivarius ♫ 12:22, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
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Michael Woo
![]() | Resolved. See discussion. Steven Zhang Join the DR army! 00:03, 9 December 2011 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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Dispute overview
Michael Woo is an American of Chinese descent, a former Los Angeles City Council member. Both editors feel that his Chinese name can logically be presented as part of the article, but one editor wishes to add the Pinyin and Jyutping romanizations (because that's the way it is done for Chinese names) and the other does not (because Mr. Woo is not Chinese, but American, and there is no Source to indicate he ever used the romanizations). Users involved
Yes.
Resolving the dispute
We have discussed the issue on a talk page and we have agreed to take the Chinese characters and the romanizations out of the leed (where HkCaGu originally inserted them) and to put at least the Chinese characters into the body of the story, along with their source (which you can see in the footnote).
Determine whether the romanization words should also be included in the article. GeorgeLouis (talk) 05:40, 30 November 2011 (UTC) Michael Woo discussionDiscussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.
This is a tricky question, as I'm not aware of any Wikipedia guidelines that would give us an indication of what to do here. Under the circumstances, I think the best thing may be to take this question to RfC and find opinions from a wide range of editors. Does this sound like a good idea to both of you? — Mr. Stradivarius ♫ 14:01, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
Well, I finally understood what the other user was driving at, so I edited the sentence in question, here: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Michael_Woo&action=historysubmit&diff=463507698&oldid=463216492. I hope this will satisfy everybody concerned. Yours, GeorgeLouis (talk) 15:46, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
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Adam Parfrey
![]() | Resolved. — TransporterMan (TALK) 14:41, 8 December 2011 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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Dispute overview
There is a dispute about the relevance of the Dark Mission material added under the controversy section. We have disputed the logistics of the issue on the Parfrey talk page and have not built consensus. I feel the change made in promotions is a matter of publishing and promoting logistics, and since the promotion was changed this is not a relevant topic for Adam Parfrey's career or Wikipdedia entry. In addition Parfrey's publishing company has it's own page making this information seem even less relevant to his personal page. The other user and I have both called for additional editors on the talk page but are receiving no feedback. I am new to wiki editing but this seemed like the appropriate next step. Users involved
Yes.
Resolving the dispute
I have discussed the issue on Adam Parfrey's talk page and StuHarris's talk page.
The other user and I are having a hard time building consensus. I believe the information is being used as a personal attack against the writer and publisher and I would appreciate a permanent solution to this dispute. Three of the last four topics on StuHarris's page involve people asking him not to make potentially libelous claims out of his source material. I request that the information on the page be relevant and not libelous as well. CarrieLorraine (talk) 20:20, 7 December 2011 (UTC) Adam Parfrey discussionDiscussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.
I agree that CarrieLorraine has made a good faith effort to discuss this dispute and attempt to find consensus. The history is that I added this information to the article on 26 Sept 2011. CarrieLorraine deleted it on 26 November without discussion. I added it back two days later with a plea for discussion prior to any further deletion. CarrieLorraine deleted it twice more. CanadianLinuxUser and ItsZippy restored it on those occasions. We are not sure if those editors truly support the material as such, or if they merely think CarrieLorraine was remiss in not discussing. The point is that the Amazon promo for Dark Mission was originally three sentences, two of which were false. One of them was withdrawn, I don't know when. The other falsehood is still there, demonstrably. Inspection of the book's ToC shows that no chapter about Von Braun is in the second edition. While CarrieLorraine is technically correct that the promo was changed, it was not changed sufficiently to avoid the charge of mendacity. CarrieLorraine has stated that it's very difficult for a publisher to get Amazon to make changes. Apparently not. My reason for wishing to include this material in Adam Parfrey's page is that it is informative of his sense of his responsibility as a publisher placing material on the public record. I have stated, and I now state again, that I have no personal grudge against Parfrey. El Ingles (talk) 21:51, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
The section in question constitutes WP:OR; I have removed it and commented on the talk page. Gerardw (talk) 23:26, 7 December 2011 (UTC) Much appreciation. Is there a way to prevent this user from putting the information up again in the future and having to come back to the noticeboard with it? CarrieLorraine (talk) 00:28, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
No need to worry, Carrie. I'm quite happy to accept Gerardw's decision. I got a fair hearing. Cheers. 00:49, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
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Queen's Bands
![]() | Premature, no discussion. See more detailed reason in Closing Notes below. — TransporterMan (TALK) 17:49, 8 December 2011 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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Dispute overview
An anonymous editor keeps deleting edits describing events that have occured on the Queen's University (Kingston, Ontario, Canada) campus. Many overtures to discuss the situation in the article's talk page has failed and the editor has not communicated back. Users involved
I would like feedback on how to proceed. The current situation is untenable, especially since the anonymous editor has not responded to attempts to communicate.
Not yet.
Resolving the dispute
I have created an entry in the article's discussion page, and asked editors to discuss the proposed edits there. No response has been given.
I am unsure. I am fairly new at making edits and this would be my first "dispute" that needs to be resolved. Absolutezero273 (talk) 05:06, 8 December 2011 (UTC) Queen's Bands discussionDiscussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.
I am a mediator/clerk here at DRN. I have requested page protection to prevent the page from being edited by anonymous editors while this is being worked out. It appears to me that the edits being deleted are well within Wikipedia guidelines. Though the current source is a college newspaper, which can sometimes be iffy as a reliable source when reporting on events at its own college (see good discussion here), the story was widely picked up in the Canadian mainstream national press (Google news search), which reported the same facts as set out in the college story. The short reference to the event in this longer article does not appear to me to give undue weight to the incident. The IP editor should feel free to either create an account and log in to add text and supporting references to other stories from reliable sources which provide a counterpoint to the current assertions in the text, or or place a request on the article talk page that a logged-in editor do it for him/her. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 15:22, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
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A link is provided
![]() | Wrong forum. Will leave note on user's talk page about where to go. — TransporterMan (TALK) 19:40, 8 December 2011 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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Dispute overview
It is matter of a problem of a page deleted from WP for lack of reference. as I found some historics about, I would just ask you two qustions:
(please drop a message at my talk page [[28]] Thanks for help. Users involved
Not yet.
Resolving the dispute
Melekaya (talk) 18:54, 8 December 2011 (UTC) A link is provided discussionDiscussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.
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Template:GravEngAbs
![]() | This dispute is already being discussed via an RfC. Normally we don't accept requests for disputes that are already being discussed elsewhere, so it is unusual for this discussion to have been open for so long. Also I note that a compromise solution has been implemented while the RfC is underway, which looks like a good way of preventing edit warring in the meantime; I advise that this version be kept until the RfC is over. If there are still problems after the RfC is closed, feel free to post another request on this noticeboard. Regards, Mr. Stradivarius (talk) 07:35, 9 December 2011 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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Dispute overview
Editing against consensus; repeatedly inserting/reverting unsourced, POV descriptions. No respecting RFC outcome. Users involved
Yes. Resolving the dispute
Discussed on talk page, opened RFC.
Not sure. Persuade Crissov to accept the consensus, if that can be done here. Gerardw (talk) 12:06, 30 November 2011 (UTC) Template:GravEngAbs discussionDiscussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.
I would give the RfC more time before assuming it has produced a consensus. There have only been four editors commenting so far, and the RfC was only opened three days ago, on November 27. With no further objections I'll close this thread, as it can't really fulfill any purpose that the RfC isn't doing already. If there are still problems after the RfC has been closed, then dispute resolution will still be around to help. Regards — Mr. Stradivarius ♫ 14:08, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
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Wikipedia:Government
![]() | Now listed at Misc for Discussion. Thanks for assuming good faith Beeblebrox. Hasteur (talk) 19:07, 10 December 2011 (UTC) Noting for the record that I strongly object to the completely unfounded statement Hasteur saw fit to append to this close. At no point did I say or even imply that he acted out of bad faith and such snide side comments have absolutely no place in a closing statement. Beeblebrox (talk) 01:14, 12 December 2011 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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Dispute overview
This proposal was soundly rejected eight months ago. I marked it as failed and hatted/closed discussion on the talk page. The proposals author, who appears to have a severe case of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT, has reverted all that and insists it is a work in progress despite the fact that it was strongly rejected and before today had sat unedited for many months. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:02, 4 December 2011 (UTC) Users involved
yes
Resolving the dispute
Smacked him with a trout. [29] His response, more bullshit about it being a work in progress [30]. It's been roundly rejected on general principles, no amount of modification of the specifics is going to change that. The Count's denial of reality is staggering. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:00, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
A consensus on whether this is a failed proposal or not would be useful. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:00, 4 December 2011 (UTC) Beeblebrox (talk) 19:00, 4 December 2011 (UTC) Wikipedia:Government discussionDiscussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.
So far there hasn't even been a proposal that can be formally rejected. What has happened is that I started out with a general idea that needs to be developed further with some input from other editors. I did take into account some of the comments, but it needs more work. So, it is still a proposal, but the idea is that editors should work constructively on improving it so that it can be considered by the community for adoption or rejection. If editors right now don't like it, they can write why not. But in the state it is now, one shouldn't consider the feedback to be up or down votes. It is true that it has gone a bit stale, but then I don't have a lot of time for Wikipedia, the time I do have goes into watching the 200+ articles on my watchlist and answering questions on the Ref. Desk. Then what time there as for policy discussions was used up on the discussions about "not truth" on the WP:V talk page the last few months. And if we consider the events at WP:V, we have to admit that we already have a sort of government of a few Admins who are now deciding what to do with Blueboar's proposal. So, saying that it's a non-starter is just an opinion that doesn't even reflect current reality on Wikipedia. So, the basic idea cannot be dismissed as a non-starter. The proposal would just formalize current practice. But, of course, as it is written now, it's not comprehensive enough. And considering what we've seen on WP:V with 1/3 saying to 2/3 of editors that they don't have enough consensus to implement their proposal, so we should stick with the present version (which was never put to a vote, which likely never would have gotten even a majority), this calls into question if non-regulars like me can even get involved in the policy pages. Another proposal of mine WP:ESCA, which is currently an essay, was effectively sunk by a small group of regulars who construed it as some threat to their Wiki-ideology, even though it pragmatically discusses real issues that come up with the certain type of scientific articles. In conclusion, the proposal is still open and under development. It should not be labeled as a failed proposal at this time, that would be like a journal rejecting a paper for publication that I haven't even submitted yet. Count Iblis (talk) 21:00, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
Let's all take a breather and remember Civility in all aspects of editing and discussions with other editors. Beeblebrox, please do not make attack like assertions in response to other editors or the content on wikipedia ("crazed nonsense that never happened", "outright lies"). Would moving the proposal out of WP space alleviate your concerns? Count Iblis, can you commit to working on this to aleviate the concerns Beeblebrox has with this? If not would it be better to move this out of WP project space and into your user space to work on (in the back burner), or would a MfD be a better solution? If both of you could respond to find a solution that works for everyone that would allow the Wiki-Love to continue. Hasteur (talk) 18:17, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
I'll rewrite the text, keeping the core principles the same, but such that it is clear that it is actually something that is consistent with current policies. We do informally edit using a sort of government under some circumstances. Take e.g. the current dispute at WP:V, first it was agreed that Blueboar would work on a proposal, so that was a fe-facto election of a one person government, and now there is an unelected three person government deciding how to close the RFC on Blueboar's proposal, and just today it was decided that insufficient progress was made, so a notice was placed on WP:AN to help out with the closing. So, by rewriting the text, starting with what already exists now and then describing that process in general terms instead of suggesting more formal rules, I can more or less get the same idea across without even having to get the text accepted as a new policy, as it is already firmly based on existing policy. This would deal with Beeblebrox's objection, he may still strongly object to it, but his problem is then with existing policies, not anything I propose. An RFC can be held to ask the community if the text accurately describes current practice on Wikipedia when I'm done. The page should not be userfied, I think it is important to have a clear policy text that describes the process of how a Wiki-page that initially can be edited by anyone ends up being only editable by a small group of people. These rules do clearly exist at an informal level. Just try to edit in Blueboar's proposal into the WP:V text if you don't believe me, it does have 2/3 support of the community. And then note that User:Newyorkbrad can make that edit. Count Iblis (talk) 17:25, 8 December 2011 (UTC) Ok, since neither party thinks that userfication is a good idea, and that Beebelbrox thinks that the proposed policy does not belong, I'm going to recomend either going with a RfC to establish by consensus if the proposal is rejected or a MfD (with userfication being an option) to get it out of the wikipedia project space to remove it's assumed policy claims untill it's more likely to pass. Hasteur (talk) 17:45, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
Ok, it's been presented a way to go forward with this. I observe that nobody has elected to do one of the actions so I'm going to close this discussion down in 24 hours with the suggestions on how to move forward (RfC or MfD). Hasteur (talk) 17:32, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
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Wilhelm Busch (pastor)
![]() | User:Stephfo blocked by User:Elen of the Roads. Mr. Stradivarius (talk) 05:51, 12 December 2011 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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Dispute overview
The whole dispute at article talk page has developed over the following deletion of the text originally added by me: [32] and trying to address the topic of Legacy of the pastor Wilhelm Busch. I have tried to find 3rd party opinions on this contentious point from projects I believe pertain this subject by posting message at their project talk pages, but there was virtually no feedback except one mentioned below in section about users (and technically one more by editor I have dispute with). [33][34][35]. Reason for seeking help here is that the dispute (currently 1:1 users involved), although relatively kept civil, is becoming extremely obscure, cumbersome, endless and at least from my perspective irrational, and I lost hope that logical arguments themselves have capacity to decide it without the help from outside. My position is that my text was not violating any WP policy and was done in good faith to increase the quality of given article thus Wikipedia, and it can be supported even by more sources mentioned in the later dispute, however due to this ongoing obscure dispute such WP:BRD act can be claimed as WP:EW and that's something I want to avoid in any case. Please advise how to continue. --Stephfo (talk) 14:21, 10 December 2011 (UTC) Users involved
Yes, however without the last two (Bermicourt, Elen of the Roads) who are mentioned but not enlisted as involved due to reasons explained above. Should anybody wish to get them involved, pls. feel free to invite/include them or let me know if I should do it on your behalf.
Resolving the dispute
As already mentioned, 3rd party opinion was asked for at three aforementioned projects without eliciting considerable response. "Heavy" discussion in effort to find consensus wrt. dispute resolution is ongoing at Article talk page as already mentioned above.
IMHO, DRN can help by its authority to approve/disprove the logical coherency of arguments presented and their applicability to given disputed aspects of the article text. Stephfo (talk) 14:21, 10 December 2011 (UTC) Wilhelm Busch (pastor) discussionDiscussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.
Hi Stephfo, and thanks for posting here. I've read the discussion on the talk page as well as a few surrounding discussions, and I think I can see what the problem is. It looks like this is the section being disputed, and that the rationale of the other editors involved is that the section isn't really related to Busch all that much. I would not go as far as to say that all the information on Busch's legacy is irrelevant, but I do agree with the other editors that the sources from prochrist.org are not really adequate for proving a connection in this case. We really need reliable, third-party sources to establish a connection like this. If you can find such sources, then I think that it would be worth putting in the article. The points later in the section about Parzany and Billy Graham seem like one point too removed for us to include in the article, however - at that point the article is becoming more about Parzany than Busch. I think the solution that User:Huon suggested on the talk page of creating a new article on Ulrich Parzany is a good one. I had a look on Google Books, and Parzany seems to be notable enough, though I'm not sure if we would be able to make the article all that detailed. From what I've seen it looks like you speak German, so you might be able to find more sources than I was able to. A new article about Parzany would mean that we could include material about both Busch and Billy Graham, and so we may be able to use the section you wrote (or an updated version of it). However, before we think about taking this course of action, I think we should check that writing about Parzany wouldn't violate your topic ban. If Parzany is a campaigner for creationism, for example, then that would seem to be within the scope of your topic ban, and you should not create the article or edit it if someone else creates it. If you are not sure, then I recommend getting the opinion of your mentor or an admin that you trust before proceeding. Let me know if this makes sense. All the best — Mr. Stradivarius ♫ 17:24, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
I've proposed a simple way forward at Talk:Wilhelm Busch (pastor) [40]. Stephfo has more or less written a stub article on Parzany at User:Stephfo. If he will allow some copyediting to make it OK to move to mainspace, then including a short sentence of the format "One of Busch's pupils was Ulrich Parzany, who said he was very influenced by Busch]] in the Busch article would cover the whole thing, and give us an article on Parzany to boot.Elen of the Roads (talk) 12:02, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
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Floppy disk hardware emulator
![]() | Conduct dispute, not content dispute; not within scope of this noticeboard. Consider WQA (for other users' opinions, such as you might get here) or ANI (to seek blocking, banning, or other sanctions or restrictions) instead if other currently pending processes do not resolve matters. Also, no discussion on article talk page. — TransporterMan (TALK) 19:54, 28 November 2011 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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Dispute overview
User:Guy Macon doing a lot of misbehaviours, angry editing [42]
Users involved
Yes.
Resolving the dispute
Brief advices about misbehaviours, dispute avoidance.
Get attacking user understand that "which hunting" and "pizza connection fancies" damage wikipedia itself because of their "worst faith assumption" and "wikipedia time wasting". 137.204.148.73 (talk) 03:31, 27 November 2011 (UTC) Floppy disk hardware emulator discussionDiscussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.
It should be noted that Blackvisionit (who I have good reason to believe to be 137.204.148.73) owns a company that sells one particular type of floppy disk hardware emulator - the kind that is used on IBM-Compatible PCs. The content dispute is about whether the page should treat all floppy disk hardware emulators - PC, Mac, Commodore, Atari, various music synths - equally or whether it should be focused on the particular type of floppy disk hardware emulator that Blackvisionit sells. Also, at the top of this page under "Purpose of this noticeboard", it says "This noticeboard is not for disputes which have been carried out only through edit summaries or which have not received substantial discussion on a talk page." 137.204.148.73 has engaged in zero talk page discussion despite multiple requests from multiple editors that he do so and has instead engaged in edit warring (He is currently at 3RR). On a personal note, I welcome close scrutiny of my behavior. Nobody likes being told that they did something wrong, but I am well aware that I sometimes need correction. I have Asperger's syndrome and benefit greatly from any comments about my behavior and relationships with others. In my case, criticism is not rude - it is very much appreciated. --Guy Macon (talk) 08:22, 27 November 2011 (UTC) Updated list of recent administrative actions regarding IP Address 137.204.148.73 Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Blackvisionit Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard#Floppy disk hardware emulator (Closed) Wikipedia:Wikiquette assistance#Active "hunt & attack" by editor --Guy Macon (talk) 10:45, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
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USB
![]() | This discussion was closed, then reopened before it rolled off to the archive. When it was reopened, the mediator/clerk failed to replace the DoNotArchiveUntil January 7 line, so it has rolled off here prematurely without having been closed. That being said, it appears that the dispute has ceased and I am closing it for that reason. If anyone wishes to continue it, however, please drop a note on my user talk page and I will relist it in among the active disputes. — TransporterMan (TALK) 17:54, 15 December 2011 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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Dispute overview
Dispute over naming of article, whether it should be called "USB" or "Universal Serial Bus". Previous placement was at the latter but following move proposal admin RegentsPark judged consensus to be for move despite a clear majority against based on a selective citation of policy. Relevant policy has already been cited in discussion and therefore taken into consideration, however RegentsPark took it upon himself to make a fresh point based on that policy not previously raised in the discussion. By doing do he implicitly involved himself and could not properly then assess the discussion. The central issue of policy is whether the subject is known "almost exclusively" by the shortened form: this is not a test RegentsPark even addressed in his analysis and has not commented upon this in subsequent discussion. Cited reliable sources in the discussion show preference for the longer form and therefore summing up seems even more dubious. Proponents of of move have been repeatedly invited and given more than ample time to counter this assertion but have failed to do so. In the mean time this move continues to have effect without consensus for that change. Users involved
Yes.
Resolving the dispute
Debate continued on article talk page but impasses reached by repeated failure of proponents of move to cite evidence or engage in meaningful discussion now their preferred position has been taken.
At the very least it it my hope formal dispute resolution procedures will elicit such responses. If not consideration should be made as to whether admin decision was the correct one based on the available information and cited sources. Crispmuncher (talk) 20:43, 8 December 2011 (UTC) USB discussionDiscussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.
Hi there, I'm a mediator are the DRN and aim to help bring this to a resolution. The issues seems to be whether USB is the most common name, whether any other uses of USB are of equal importance and whether Wikipedia policies would allow the use of an acronym in this case. It seems to me that we need to first determine whether USB is the most common name for a Universal Serial Bus, then we can look at whether any other uses are important. If USB is the most common form, then policy would allow the article to be named USB. ItsZippy (talk • contributions) 21:05, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
Clerkish note: Just for the record, also see Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/26 November 2011/Universal Serial Bus. — TransporterMan (TALK) 21:14, 8 December 2011 (UTC) Thanks for your reply, Chris. I agree that the issue seems to have gone stale and is not an active dispute. In closing the recent Mediation Cabal case, Steven Zhang suggested that, if anyone still opposed the current page name, a requested move should take place to determine consensus according to policy; I would concur with that judgement. Therefore, I will close this, advising anyone wishing to pursue the matter to heed Steven's advice. ItsZippy (talk • contributions) 21:30, 8 December 2011 (UTC) Apologies for that premature closure. I opted to close the discussion before anyone else contributed; however, there seems to now be discussion taking place. My poor internet connection meant I missed that. That was my mistake - I apologise for that. I've reopened this and will allow full discussion to take place. ItsZippy (talk • contributions) 21:48, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
Mediator comment - This discussion seems to be about two main issues: the name of the article and RegentsPark's conduct in closing the requested move. As DRN is for content issues only, I would ask that editors refrain from discussing RegentsPark's conduct, motives or anything else (unless directly linked to a content issue). If conduct is an issue, I advise taking it to WP:ANI. I agree with the sentiment that this debate had gone stale and DRN is not the best place; however, as discussion is already underway, I feel it would be excessively bureaucratic to close the discussion (if another mediator disagrees, it is to their discretion as to whether they close it). However, we do need constructive discussion here. A lot of convincing evidence has been provided to suggest that USB is the most common name; as yet, the counter-evidence has been insufficient. If anyone can give actual evidence to the contrary (not criticisms of the quality of evidence which, in total, seems sufficient), please do so. ItsZippy (talk • contributions) 19:47, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
For what it's worth, I've started a discussion regarding rewording the guideline in question at Wikipedia talk:Article titles#Weakening the wording of WP:ACRONYMTITLE, referencing this discussion. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 13:01, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
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