Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jack MacLellan (2nd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Per the discussion, MacLellan does not currently satisfy NHOCKEY or GNG. I would not be opposed to its recreation in the event that he plays a game in the NHL (ie meets NHOCKEY) or otherwise can be demonstrated to satisfy the general notability guideline at some point in the future. Until then, this is simply WP:TOOSOON. TheSandDoctor ^Talk 05:20, 20 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Jack MacLellan

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WP:BLP of a hockey player, whose claim of notability has not actually improved since the first deletion discussion. This was deleted in December, then restored to userspace in May per request, and then moved back into articlespace the next day with no further changes, on the grounds that he passes WP:NHOCKEY for playing in the NHL. But that's a complete misrepresentation of reality -- he got drafted by an NHL team, but spent his entire "NHL" time playing with the farm team, and never once hit the ice in a single NHL game before getting sent back down to the juniors.
That is not an NHOCKEY pass, however -- a person has to get onto the ice in a real NHL game, not just be drafted by an NHL team and then never actually get called up from the farm team before being let go, to clear NHOCKEY on NHL grounds. And the amount of coverage shown here is not enough to claim that he passes GNG in lieu -- it's four-fifths the primary source content of his own teams, and one-fifth the university student newspaper of his own alma mater. This is not the sourcing it takes to make him a special case over and above most other hockey players who never made it higher than a farm team.
Technically, this is speediable as it's literally unchanged from the original deleted version — however, since the first AFD discussion just stated that he failed NHOCKEY without really going into the specifics, there was plenty of room here for either a misinterpretation of NHOCKEY or a good faith disagreement about his passage or failure of it. So I felt it more appropriate to relist for a new discussion, with more detail about why he fails NHOCKEY than was actually offered the first time, than to just speedy it. Bearcat (talk) 21:27, 12 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Canada-related deletion discussions. Bearcat (talk) 22:01, 12 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. Nat965 (talk) 07:02, 13 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Ice hockey-related deletion discussions. Nat965 (talk) 07:02, 13 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Ontario-related deletion discussions. Nat965 (talk) 07:02, 13 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: per nom's cogent explanation, which should honestly be unnecessary. I'm at a loss as to why this was userfied in the first place, since the subject's been out of professional hockey for several years now and wasn't likely ever to bolster his non-existent claims to notability. Valoem's insistence, without a scrap of supporting evidence, that this ephemeral player in the mid-minors played for multiple NHL teams is equally baffling. Ravenswing 10:37, 13 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Doesn't even remotely meet WP:NHOCKEY. Didn't play in the NHL. The sources in the article and anything I can find in a search are routine or passing mentions so he also fails WP:GNG. Had it not already been Afd'd I would have Speedy Deleted it. -DJSasso (talk) 11:24, 13 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Delete, the subject still fails both WP:NHOCKEY and WP:GNG. Flibirigit (talk) 16:48, 13 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, Unless I am reading this wrong, he clearly passes NHOCKEY. NHockey states:

Ice hockey players are presumed notable if they

Played one or more games in the National Hockey League, Czech Extraliga, Liiga, Kontinental Hockey League or the Swedish Hockey League, a top level Canadian amateur league prior to 1909, the Soviet Championship League, the Czechoslovak First Ice Hockey League or the World Hockey Association;
Played at least 200 games (90 games for a goaltender) or achieved preeminent honors (all-time top ten career scorer, First Team All-Star) in the Mestis, Deutsche Eishockey Liga, Slovak Extraliga, HockeyAllsvenskan, National League A or the American Hockey League;
Achieved preeminent honors (all-time top ten career scorer or First Team All-Star) in the Eishockey Liga, Belarusian Extraleague, 2nd Bundesliga, GET-ligaen, ECHL, Elite Ice Hockey League, Ontario Hockey League, Quebec Major Junior Hockey League, Western Hockey League, Elite.A or the Beneliga;
Achieved preeminent honors (all-time top ten career scorer or First or Second Team All-American) in the men's play versions of the Atlantic Hockey, Big Ten Conference, ECAC Hockey, Hockey East, National Collegiate Hockey Conference, Western Collegiate Hockey Association;
Are a first-round draft pick of the NHL Entry Draft; or
Played on a senior national team for the World Championship, in the highest pool the IIHF maintained in any given year (Note: playing in lower pools that do not actually contest for the World Champion title is not enough to satisfy inclusion requirements).

He has played for the Nashville Predators an NHL team NHL.com, so he passes "Played one or more games in the National Hockey League, Czech Extraliga, Liiga, Kontinental Hockey League or the Swedish Hockey League, a top level Canadian amateur league prior to 1909, the Soviet Championship League, the Czechoslovak First Ice Hockey League or the World Hockey Association". Valoem ^talk ^contrib 23:54, 13 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: You keep on claiming that, Valoem, but you are wrong. We do not accord presumptive notability for an organization signing a player (which is all the link you've repeatedly posted states), but for a player actually taking the ice for official game action, and more than one person has said this to you now. Organizations sign many players who never play a big-league game ... and indeed, hockey doesn't hold a candle to baseball in this respect, where an organization in which as many as one player in five who plays for a Rookie League or Single A team sees so much as an inning of major league action is a startling outlier. Ravenswing 00:21, 14 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Probably don't need to pile on at this point, but he hasn't played for the Predators. He only signed with their team. -DJSasso (talk) 12:57, 15 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Delete A clear fail of NHOCKEY, as his available databases attest, and I do not see anything that would satisfy GNG.18abruce (talk) 08:59, 14 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Delete It is high time we come up with a more restrictive gudeline than hitting the ice for a major league team. However since MacLellan never did that, he is clearly not notable. The article explicitly states that MacLellan didn't play with the predators. Even if he had by chance been on their main roster, someone would need to cite an actual NFL game he played in to show notability. The one game rule, and the whole structure of hockey notability, seem to be a ludicrously low bar still.John Pack Lambert (talk) 02:31, 15 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Except it isn't. It is extremely easy to find sources for every single player who played a single game in the NHL and all NHOCKEY does is show when its is 99.999% likely a player meets WP:GNG. -DJSasso (talk) 13:00, 15 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
And the point is confusing at best; this is an obvious delete by a player that failed to go anywhere, what evidence is there that it is "high time" to do anything? The evidence, as born out by recent AFD's, is that the bar is significantly higher than other sports, and unpopular in that regard to some wiki projects.18abruce (talk) 21:23, 15 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The "one major professional game = notability" bar's been the case for sporting articles since sports notability criteria were first set. I agree that it's silly, in that it enshrines the notability of someone who played five minutes for the Montreal Maroons in 1927 over someone who played five hundred games in the WHL/AHL, but it's just set so deeply into granite that no one's ever going to budge it. Ravenswing 22:31, 15 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Delete The fact that Johnpacklambert seems to think the Predators are an NFL team shows he has no idea what he's talking about. His constant crusade against sports notability criteria makes me question whether he is truly here to build an encyclopedia. Nonetheless, in this case he's right. Merely signing with a team doesn't confer notability under NHOCKEY. Smartyllama (talk) 14:06, 18 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Eh, I can hope that we can disagree on various principles without presuming that anyone who doesn't share our POV is a vandal with some hideous agenda, the same way I hope we realize that everyone makes typos. Ravenswing 19:56, 18 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.