Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive167

Ashtul

Ashtul topic-banned indefinitely, with provision for reconsideration after six months. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:50, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Request concerning Ashtul User who is submitting this request for enforcement Nomoskedasticity (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 19:29, 23 February 2015 (UTC) User against whom enforcement is requested Ashtul (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log Sanction or remedy to be enforced Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Palestine-Israel_articles#General_1RR_restriction : Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it 12:27, 22 February 2015 (UTC) revert removes paragraph 11:12, 23 February 2015 (UTC) 1RR violation -- removes a paragraph again, <24 hours after the first time Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any Previous block notice for 1RR violation: [1] I/P topic ban: [2], subsequently lifted by HJ Mitchell, [3] Additional comments by editor filing complaint Report originally posted at AN3; moved here on suggestion by another editor. Ashtul continues to insist (on ever more bizarre grounds) that the edit violating 1RR was okay. This does not bode well. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 16:11, 26 February 2015 (UTC) Re Ashtul's claim not to be a POV-pusher -- since other admins have already noted that POV-pushing is exactly what is going on here, perhaps it's not necessary to specify it, but just in case: consider this edit, which adds a claim (co-existence, side-by-side) that uses a source not meeting WP:RS and another one (Y-net) that does't support the text. The POV is that the occupation is good for the Palestinians -- they don't mind it, they benefit from it economically, they work "side by side" next to Israelis in "co-existence" -- and yet the only source that supports those claims is one that quotes the head of a settlement regional council. The claim to this effect is nonetheless added without attribution, as if it were fact. This sort of editing is pervasive in this editor's contributions -- and so the claim that he is not a POV-pusher is especially troubling because it shows unwillingness to own up to what is perfectly evident. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 16:01, 1 March 2015 (UTC) Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested [4] Discussion concerning Ashtul Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks. Statement by Ashtul A lot more to consider Preemptive quick resolution The edit in question is completely insignificant and was returned by Nishidani only due to the massive rollback he has done to other changes. Before getting into a long discussion, I asked Nishidani to comment on it which can resolve this AE request quickly with none of us wasting any additional time. Ashtul (talk) 20:43, 23 February 2015 (UTC) Long dirty road I have asked Nishidani to admit the text in question should have been removed but he dodged the request claiming it is 'irrelevant'. I will demonstrate why it is and later the background for this. The text removed has been on Wikipedia in some form since at least 2010, not added by Nishidani. The text removed is completely outdated and false as Beitar Illit is by now a city and the other content is redundant due to recent addition. The article has recently went through massive addition and needed a lot of work (9k->14k). The rewrite was done in a rush and obvious issues such as duplicate sections (History vs. History and today) were left which is where the text in question is located. Before any of the changes took place, 100s of word of discussion were written here and on Talk:Community settlement (Israel). Nishidani was impossible to argue with , Cptnono wrote 'Regardless, have you taken a look at Ashtul's reasoning, Nishidani? I don't know enough about those details but it is intriguing enough that merely blowing off is not the best thing to do'. The change in question was done as two series of with the first including 16 changes, all step by step so other users can follow the logic and revert a single change if they disagree. The first series took over an hour to compile (11:22, 22 February 2015‎ to 14:27, 22 February 2015 with an obvious break in between). Nishidani made a quick WP:ROLLBACK revert (kept one change and added some content) with the cheerful description Failure to read the sources or if read, misinterpreting them. Describing as WP:OR statements in the sources, etc. General incompetence. Please note, the revert in question isn't referred to neither there is't an explanation is supplied in an appropriate location, such as at the relevant talk page as demanded here. In a way, it can be called WP:Vandalism as Nishidani revert included return of WP:OR, removing new source and removal of content that seems redundant. So to summery, this 'revert' is eliminating old content during a rewrite of an article with obvious need for love. In a duplicate section - old, false, redundant content was removed for the second time after a massive, careless revert by Nishidani. I will publish very relevant background in a bit. Ashtul (talk) 06:15, 24 February 2015 (UTC) Background I was blocked then topic banned, then blocked for breaking the topic ban then pardoned. HJ Mitchell demanded I will 'keep a respectful distance from Nishidani'. Nishidani admittedly was aware of this requirement as he was pinged to the page. "Naturally" his instinct was to WP:HOUND me in order to get in my face and provoke me by massive edits to the two pages I recently edited, Community settlement (Israel) and Barkan Industrial Park. I know I should WP:AGF but with WP:POVPUSH statements such as 'Israeli-occupied West Bank', 'in the Occupied Territories' and elimination of my edit 'At Barkan Industrial Park, thousands of Israelis and Palestinians coexist and work side by side in many of the factories', which was already eliminated before twice by other members of the pack Nomoskedasticity and Huldra, it has diminished (I'll touch on the pack practice later). Nishidani has since apologized and admitted for possible wrongdoing (20:26, 23 February 2015), which was after the original WarEdit complaint was filed by Nomoskedasticity (14:09, 23 February 2015). Yet, it didn't occur to him to ask Nomoskedasticity to drop this complaint. Now I want to explain 'The Pack' which I've mentioned earlier. It is quite a fascinating phenomenon to see users Nomoskedasticity, Huldra, Nishidani and Zero0000 keep on popping on the same pages, reverting the same content. It seems like a great system that prevents anyone for making a case for a WP:WAR Examples can be found here, here, here (around 21:38, 17 January 2015), here (around 19:29, 18 January 2015‎), and here. I am not sure if I'll go as far as blaming them for active WP:Canvassing, but it happened enough times around me to shows a pattern. Another claim of WP:WAR was raised by Nishidani for Karmei Tzur. It is completely bogus and part of this witch-hunt. I have deleted three stories that I thought weren't notable enough. A claim for POVPUSH will be completely false as one of them was about stone throwing where nobody died. I've then realized an image was related to one of those and thus deleted it as well. Nableezy disagree over the importance of two of the stories and returned them along with the picture. The only issue is, the picture is related to the story he chose to leave out. I haven't noticed it at first, but once I did, I removed it. I have asked Nableezy to comment on this matter. I think at this point I have wrote everything I have about why the revert in question (and the one second one) weren't WP:WAR, WP:1RR but rather the duty of an editor to correction of a mistake done by the previous revert where opposition is unlikely. If this isn't enough of an explanation maybe Nishidani is right and I have notable problems. Since my topic ban was lifted I opened an RfD (which concluded with consensus in a few days and effected tens of articles) and RfC (so far, the two answers support my position - 'rampant POV-pushing and totally unacceptable') exactly to eliminate this type of conflicts. If this does sound reasonable, I would like a mechanism to be put in place so The Pack won't gang on me again. Cheers, Ashtul (talk) 08:17, 24 February 2015 (UTC) Over 36 hours after this request was submitted and the editor who actually did the changes in question, Nishidani, hasn't bother to comment though he was fully aware of it. This was a great stunt aimed to waste my time. Ashtul (talk) 12:11, 25 February 2015 (UTC) Thank you Nishidani for an elaborate response. Some of these are legitimate content conflicts or correction of bad judgement of another editor. Yet, you haven't touched on the 'revert' in question in which the content was redundant, outdated and in duplicate section (History vs. History and today) due to your new contribution. You should have removed it yourself after the rollback. To go after me b/c of it with AE complaint is #@$%*&#%@#$ and bad faith!!! Ashtul (talk) 18:06, 25 February 2015 (UTC) It all comes down to a simple question, Nishidani, Do you think the material in the revert should have been removed? or was it your mistake (or simple lack of attention) putting it back in?. The revert was not WP:WAR or anything even close to that. Karmei Tzur isn't even 1RR not to mention once again remove a picture which referred to text that was left out by the reverting editor. Nableezy seems to be on wikibreak but I have no doubt he would confirm it. Ashtul (talk) 12:32, 26 February 2015 (UTC) Response to Nishidani complaint about my allegations I have wrote on your page within hours of this request, asking you to admit the material should have been removed. You went in circles and wouldn't do it because this of course will dissolve this whole request. All was left was to tell the full story. Let me ask you again, should the material removed be included in the article? Ashtul (talk) 12:46, 26 February 2015 (UTC) Regarding 'Ofra-Likud' edits - whoever read the text understand the Likud government helped Ofra in 1975 but this is impossible since Likud won elections only in 1977. This is beyond dispute. What I said in length on HJ Mitchell talk page was that the sources you have chosen to work with will be confusing b/c CS and WBS are two different animals even if they have a lot of historical and current relations between them. The sources you introduced talk mainly about WBS and touch on CS in a way that even myself, as an Israeli would probably have issue distinguishing when they are talking about what. Thus the removal of your sentence was justified and not POVPUSH not to mention I wrote it myself once there was a clear source that stated it. About Galilee and Palestinian state - Lets start with the fact you didn't put a source next to it before I took it all out.. The 3 sources you write about proves my previous point - you (or the source) aren't clear of WBS vs CS. Obviously he speaks of WBS as CS exist also in Galilee which the int'l community doesn't see as future Palestinian state. You claim I wrote the grabbed sentence "monitoring may have a particular shared ideology, religious perspective, or desired lifestyle which they wish to perpetuate by accepting only like-minded individuals" but in fact it was you. I merely deleted the statement before. So to sum this up, in a click of a button you rolled back 16 changes I have made. The one in the diffs for this AE request was your mistake and you don't even have the decency to say it out loud and lets us all put this ridicules waste of time behind us. Ashtul (talk) 23:36, 26 February 2015 (UTC) Response to EdJohnston Both revert were correction of mistaken edit by another editor. WP:3RR is part of WP:Edit warring which clearly states - "An edit war occurs when editors who disagree about the content of a page repeatedly override each other's contributions". Since there is no content dispute, there is no WP:WAR and thus no 1RR. In hundreds of words by Nishidani he never argued the content belongs in the article. Not once! He know it shouldn't and this whole AE request is an attempt to eliminate an editor with different opinions. Ashtul (talk) 13:20, 26 February 2015 (UTC) Claims for my POVPUSH or WAR I do have a strong POV but I don't push it. Some of my statement might need moderate work but I believe I contribute more on that field then do damage. Much work is needed on many pages. An example for a change I've done recently is this. Two following sentences from the same source but the date is attributed only to the second part. As of September 2010, only a small minority among them is violent. - ridicules. I haven't followed who put it this way to begin with but it is an obvious POVPUSH which I have corrected. On Timeline of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, 2015, I have tried to bring some NPOV to the table but Nishidani wouldn't hear it. If you compare the lead to that of Timeline of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, 2014 you can see the lead grew from decent NPOV to a political manifesto with multiple sources criticizing Israel. Two pro-Israeli sources introduced to lead for WP:DUE were removed by Nishidani b/c "(3) removed false and unnecessary lead tags". I have asked him about items on the list that doesn't fit the category at Talk:Timeline of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, 2015#Confiscation notice but over a week later he didn't even bother answering. A great source by Shin Bet I introduced with talk page entry was move to the very end of the monthly lead stating "This is a useful source and I will use it on a monthly basis. However unlike every other source, it has no details" but a simple look shows the first part is by no-name group that provides even less details then my source, not to mention, detainees aren't covered by the definition in the lead. Blaming me for POV discrepancy when Nishidani is in the picture is nonsense. I didn't go to war over those b/c he took control over those pages and won't hear anything from new editors. On Skunk (weapon) he would resist any change until Cptnono just chopped of one third of the article. His rollback on CS is exactly the same behavior. He didn't even go through all the changes to check whether they should stay in or not. Returning the part on which we all spending our precious time here can be considered unintentional WP:VANDALISM but in hundreds of word and 2 days Nishidani didn't even stated once that he disagree with my action of removing it and as I stated before, I can't see how 1RR rule can be applied when there is no WP:Content dispute. Ashtul (talk) 23:07, 26 February 2015 (UTC) @Huldra: Let look at an RfC on a content conflict lasting over a month now between me and yourself, Nishidani and Nomoskedasticity on Carmel, Har Hebron. The 4 replies as for now support my position and here are parts of them - Those editors who argue in favor of it because it shows a contrast between Carmel and the ruins are actually arguing that we should push some POV with this image. is rampant POV-pushing and totally unacceptable the tangential POV laden picture does not belong in this article as outlined above that does not belong in an encyclopedia As per PMW, there are 7 results about them. This one list major media outlets which use their translations. Even the one you pointed at concluse if it used by 3rd RS it is OK, which I provided. This isn't even an opinion piece but a translation. If there is any doubts about that, please prove it. The fact they choose to translate pro-Israeli material doesn't make them unreliable. To top this all, I actually contacted them after I couldn't find the original and I added the link they send me as well. Then I invited you to question this on WP:RSN. So let's sum this up, while 4 editors used some strong language on your editing on Carmel, I facilitated a conversation, provided a source, a 3rd party unarguably RS and the original in arabic then invited you to use WP:RSN. You really got some Chutzpah. Ashtul (talk) 16:53, 28 February 2015 (UTC) @EdJohnston:,@Cailil: and @Callanecc:, please note my comment above. Ashtul (talk) 17:04, 28 February 2015 (UTC) A lot more to consider 4 days after... No editor made a claim that a content dispute exist. Without it, there is no WP:WAR thus 1RR doesn't apply. Ashtul (talk) 22:27, 27 February 2015 (UTC) @EvergreenFir: I'm on my iPad so copy-pastie is torturous but I invite you to check 1RR,3RR and WAR ( they are all on the same page). It is all about content dispute. I didn't make the rules. And it is pathetic for The Pack trying to eliminate me b/c of a massive, partially unjustified rollback of a member. Ashtul (talk) 22:40, 27 February 2015 (UTC) @EvergreenFir: this is very convenient. You forgot the sentence that leads to it. Editors who engage in edit warring are liable to be blocked from editing to prevent further disruption. While any edit warring may lead to sanctions, Ashtul (talk) 22:52, 27 February 2015 (UTC) @EvergreenFir: That isn't what wp:3RR says. You wrote earlier I didn't discuss other changes but I did here. So I can't be blamed for not trying to sort it out. So much was written about the difference between WBS and CS including a sketch I made and uploaded. I was extremely forth coming!!! The 'revert' in question wasn't discussed as one doesn't have to be rocket scientist to figure it doesn't belong and Nishidani was at faults for putting it back. He doesn't argue differently. Ashtul (talk) 23:14, 27 February 2015 (UTC) I have requested HJ Mitchell who placed the previous topic ban and block to comment on this case. Please wait for his feedback. Thanks, Ashtul (talk) 18:58, 28 February 2015 (UTC) A final word I was confused all along as for why Nomoskedasticity went for a 'revert' which was not part of any content conflict as I have made total of over 20 edit in two series and how come I mixed up the time. It finally came to me - I worked on the article in two sessions. The first until 12:00 where I have made numerous changes to the content Nishidani added and a second session from 14:01 none of which was sections Nishidani wrote. In between I edited several other articles (TaxiBot, ‎Palestinian stone-throwing, Bil'in, Wikipedia:Third opinion). There are more then 24 hours between the edits I have made on Nishidani's edits and the revert in question is material that Nishidani doesn't even claim is content dispute, basically admitting him putting in back in place was a mistake. I truly believe I have done everything to keep the rules. Nomoskedasticity have filed the 3RR request within 1 hour of this uncontested 2nd revert and posted on my request to HJ Mitchell in a short time as well. Obviously he is trying to eliminate me as an editor. This isn't just WP:Hound, I think for this a new policy need to be call WP:hunt. Ashtul (talk) 09:53, 1 March 2015 (UTC) OMG, WP:HUNT actually exist. "A witchhunt is an action taken by a Wikipedia editor to find fault or violations in another editor when it is not already obvious that such has occurred". I think this is more than enough to dismiss this as Nomoskedasticity is obviously after me, sorted through dozens of edits in which he wasn't involved and immediately filed a request as if he just won the lottery. Ashtul (talk) 10:01, 1 March 2015 (UTC) @EdJohnston:,@Cailil: and @Callanecc:, HJ Mitchell have decided to sit this one out so I guess it is time for your decision. I have hidden much of the conversation and left the main points which are - I have waited 24 hours between my edits on Nishidani's work. I'm NOT POVPUSHer. Nomoskedasticity timing is clearly WP:HUNT and the 'revert' in question isn't 'already obvious that such has occurred' but required digging and hairsplitting. (This is how an obvious one looks like). I would like to ask you to refer to these points in your final decision. Thanks, Ashtul (talk) 14:29, 1 March 2015 (UTC) Answers to claims about my POV practices @Nomoskedasticity:, we all introduce some more material that supports our points but at least I use language that is NPOV. You have also failed to mention there was a discussion on the talk page on the matter with another editor thinking it was in the sources. Nobody claimed the Palestinians enjoy being under Israeli ruling but that doesn't change the fact they work together with Israelis and have great working relationships. I actually worked there a few years back and know if for a fact. The source support it and if you think it is all hell, bring a source that supports that. On the same page, Nishidani's contribution included the word 'Occupied' 3 times and his section about pollution sounds as if only Palestinian villages suffers from it. Near you guys I am Mother Teresa (as Carmel article shows). For example, I saw a new report that fits 2014 Israel–Gaza conflict. As I was looking to add it I notice the number of dead reporter was wrong at 13 instead of 17, so I fixed it and provided a source as well as added the original material which I wanted to add. This is bad for my POV but it is the truth. (I guess you might say I'm a blood thirsty murderer who wanted credit for extra 4 reporters). If anything there is a lot of cleaning required. This edit for example fixed a case where 'As of September 2010' was attributed only to 'only a small minority among them is violent' but not to 'Many settlers desperately want to be regarded as part of the Israeli mainstream' even thou they are from the same source. Whoever wrote this has an advanced degree in POVPUSH engineering. Ashtul (talk) 17:05, 1 March 2015 (UTC) You have guts. I will give you that. You write about POVPUSH and immediately delete Druker recanting b/c 'this is an opinion article'. It is his opinion about what he said earlier. Incredible!!! Ashtul (talk) 17:10, 1 March 2015 (UTC) @Nishidani: LOL. You lecture me. Those are two attempts of bringing wiki to NPOV. "and deserve to be" is in the source and attribution of the fact most settlers are law-abiding citizens is ridicules but instead of getting into a fight over attributing or not, I added a few names. I guess you think most settlers are rapists. I even added before While settlements are illegal according to international law... so it is clear we aren't talking about the conflict but about regular law. In my book this is exemplary NPOV! My favorite fixing of your POVPUSH is this. You change Israel Maintains into Israel sought to justify. 'Maintains' is NPOV. 'Sought to justify' is POVPUSH as would be 'praises itself' (to the other direction). I wrote in length before about Timeline of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, 2015 and the political manifesto you made the lead into. Ashtul (talk) 20:08, 1 March 2015 (UTC) @Nishidani: I'm afraid we're pass the point of acting as if any WP:AGF exist between us. First you need to admit this is WP:HUNT over a revert of yours, part of which (the part this request is about) was a mistake, then apologize for various beautiful comments such as While I am convinced Ashtul has notable problems, blaming me of 'totally garbled English' over a contribution you have made (on this request) or writing about me 'General incompetence'. The list can go on... You have treated me without a shred of respect for a very long time. Talking about 'approach to fellow editors' is pathetic. As per your question about the B'tselem stats, I haven't change the numbers so why are you asking me about it? About Barkan, I didn't oppose attribution but the tag which is false. And how does the 'labour unions report' contradicts them working peacefully together? Are we living a world of black and white? Do you have any RS to claim differently? This is absurd! And now that I answered your questions would you do me the honor and answer the YES/NO question that is hanging over this request - Was your revert partially mistaken? Should you have left the part about Beitar Illit out? Ashtul (talk) 22:03, 1 March 2015 (UTC) 500 words Nishidani's statement in 500 words summery doesn't include one word about the revert in question. Why? B/C there is no case. Nomoskedasticity wrote about Barkan but prior to introducing 'Demotix' I searched for it and it has currently 186 results thus seems as RS. Just to be safe, I later added an ha'aretz source. Both Haaretz and Ynet speak about good working relationships "They work shoulder to shoulder with Israelis. If you don't like this one word, why remove the whole paragraph? It seems as if Palestinians daily suffering is NPOV and well being is POVPUSHING. Why? On his first edit to Community settlement (Israel) Nishidani's edit summary reads - This is all undocumented. So let's source it.. But when I did work on it... After thousand of word of back and forth I worked on the article in two sessions. The first until 12:00 where I have made numerous changes to the content Nishidani added and a second session from 14:01 none of which was sections Nishidani wrote. In between I edited several other articles. I have waited 24 hours between my edits on Nishidani's work. It came after a lengthy conversation here. Nishidani gave it so little thought before rolling back over a dozen edits (with no proper explanation as required), he left one transfer of content and reverted the rest of changes including reintroducing duplicate section (History vs. History and today), outdated/false information and a new source introduced. In over a week, Nishidani didn't claim once there is a dispute content which is basically admitting rolling back the content into the article was a mistake. To then go after me for it is not only childish but dishonest. This a typical WP:Witchhunt (A witchhunt is an action taken by a Wikipedia editor to find fault or violations in another editor when it is not already obvious that such has occurred). There was no WP:WAR, not even WP:DISPUTE and the my edits had to be studied to find the one closest to a revert (even the one found is only partial revert). Just trying to eliminate an editor with different POV. So in one (long) sentence - Nishidani is fully aware part of his revert was wrong on an article that needed a lot of work but he wants me gone so bad he will WP:HUNT me with a policy which came to prevent WP:WAR when not even WP:Content dispute exist but only a faulty WP:ROLLBACK. Ashtul (talk) 08:44, 3 March 2015 (UTC) Response to Nishidani Nishidani Blaming anyone of POVPUSHing is a Chutzpah. I will reiterate my favorite one - He edited this which I brought back to NPOV here. He changed Israel Maintains into Israel sought to justify. 'Maintains' is NPOV. 'Sought to justify' is POVPUSH as would be 'praises itself' (to the other direction). He writes two editors of long experience have questioned... but when asked about it the response was The problem is that it is a "premium" article from Haaretz: unless you subscribe (which I don´t) you cannot see the whole article. Seriously??? Any why remove the whole statement? WHY? Haaretz is RS and it says "people are working side by side". Why would experienced editors remove this? TWICE??? Thank you for allowing me to highlight the fact I'm not in the wrong here! Ashtul (talk) 13:32, 3 March 2015 (UTC) What make this whole conversation even more absurd is the statement in question - "At Barkan Industrial Park, thousands of Israelis and Palestinians work side by side in many of the factories in coexistence". The Ynet and Haaretz articles support this but obviously the wording is mine. Israelis and Palestinians interact many millions of times a day. Apparently for Nishidani, all is important is when those go wrong (~200 edits on Timeline of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, 2015) but when someone writes about the 99.999% of the times where everything is great and people work together and have normal working relationship Huldra, Nishidani and Nomoskedasticity just can't stand it. When articles such as Kidnapping and murder of Mohammed Abu Khdeir or 2014 kidnapping and murder of Israeli teenagers explode to every possible angel and aspect both sides contribute to, it is normal, but when someone write - Let's not forget this is not the whole picture, not even a big part of it, it is POVPUSHing.Ashtul (talk) 14:44, 6 March 2015 (UTC) Not to mention on the same article, Barkan Industrial Park, pollution isn't about the environment or mother earth but a sophisticated Israeli biological weapon meant to cause cancer to Palestinians in villages around. That article is WP:UNDUE and none of those editors have edited it before I have. I think it is time for WP:ARBPIA3 where it should discussed what should go to what articles. As it stands, Barkan is just an example for the BLACKWASHING Nishidani and Co. practice on Wikipedia. Apparently, BDS movement found another battle field. Ashtul (talk) 16:01, 6 March 2015 (UTC) Statement by EvergreenFir As I said over at the AN3 report in response to the user saying their timezone settings made them inadvertently revert before the 24 hours were up, the user appears to be waiting for the restriction window to end. They did so without discussing the edits in the meantime. It's gaming to just wait for the instant the 24 hours are up. To quote WP:3RR for the sake of the user, not the reviewing admins: Any appearance of gaming the system by reverting a fourth time just outside the 24-hour slot is likely to be treated as a 3RR violation. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 20:21, 23 February 2015 (UTC) @Ashtul: 1RR always applies, even if the revert was on a different topic, it's still a revert. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 22:27, 27 February 2015 (UTC) @Ashtul: The Pack? Anyway, WP:3RR is clear that it does not need to be about a content dispute. To quote: There is a bright line known as the three-revert rule (3RR). A revert means undoing the actions of other editors. The 3RR says an editor must not perform more than three reverts, in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material, on a single page within a 24-hour period. Edit wars are over content disputes. 3RR is a bright line regardless of the natures of the edits. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 22:45, 27 February 2015 (UTC) @Ashtul: The 3RR is independent of edit warring. I myself found this out the hard way. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 22:55, 27 February 2015 (UTC) Statement by IjonTichyIjonTichy It seems Ashtul has learned almost nothing from his blocks and topic ban, and is repeating the same behaviors that led to the blocks and ban. He is gaming the system and editing in a highly partisan way. He appears to have made an effort to familiarize himself to some modest extent with the letter of WP policies, but his understanding, and more importantly his acceptance, of the spirit of the policies are very poor. He still does not understand or accept the culture of WP. He still does not have a clue. Ashtul's disruptive editing significantly reduces the work output of productive editors. Thanks and regards, IjonTichy (talk) 15:03, 24 February 2015 (UTC) I do not believe an interaction ban is a good option. To Ashtul's credit, it seems he has made a few edits that are neutral. But regretfully most of his contributions are not neutral. Ashtul appears to (not always, but almost always) edit in a highly partisan fashion, and exhibits battleground behavior. He seems to behave as if Wikipedia is an ideological war zone, and as Nishidani has shown (in two specific examples out of many) Ashtul has twisted, slanted and warped citations from reliable sources in order to serve Ashtul's own ideological bias. We all have personal biases but most of us are able to set-aside our biases most of the time and edit neutrally based strictly on what reliable sources say. In contrast, Asthul does not yet appear capable of setting aside his biases and thus he is not yet able to edit neutrally - his own ideology is far too powerful to allow him to accept the evidence provided by, and the views expressed in, reliable sources which strongly disagree with Ashtul's personal point of view. IjonTichy (talk) 11:58, 26 February 2015 (UTC) Statement by Nishidani Ashtul, while depicting me as some hounding monster, part of a hunting pack of POV pushers (the sprawling defamatory screed above after my attempts to keep this polite violates WP:AGF), insists I renege on my undertaking not to comment here. All I can see is any comment I might make being an occasion for a massive expansion of erratic counter-charges. Of the huge wall of text and embedded charges above I'll give but one example of how unreliable his reportage is. Nishidani made a quick WP:ROLLBACK revert(kept one change and added some content) What did I do in that innocuous edit? (1)I retained an important item Ashtul had added. (2) Resupplied a source for a passage that read: also in the Galilee as part of the aim of establishing a 'demographic balance' between Jews and Arabs, and thwarting the development of a Palestinian state. This had been removed by Ashtul with the edit summary: 'Removed WP:OR statement in the lead which is WP:EXCEPTIONAL)' These are both spurious. I introduced 4 academic sources, three of which say this in various ways: (a)Weizman pp.81-82,pp.120-124, immediately before his specific section on 'community settlements' writes of a double planning policy to incentivate massive settlement in order to normalize the occupation and make it permanent, while ‘placing every conceivable obstacle.. in front of Palestinians attempting to develop their lands’. (b)Farsakh p.50 wrote:‘The growth of settlements . .paved the way for carving up the West Bank and disrupting the territorial continuity necessary for the eventual establishment of a Palestinian state’. (c)Efrat p.97 wrote:‘Apart from limiting the possibilities for urban and economic development through the seizure of land, the main impact on the Palestinians of the settlements in this strip is the disruption of the territorial contiguity of the Palestinian communities situated along the strip'. That West Bank settlements, most of which are community settlements were designed to hinder a Palestinian state is known even to Blind Freddy and his dog. Ashtul won't accept that. (3)I had first made the edit: ‘by 1989, 115 had been added'. Ashtul erased this on the pretext that:'Source say clearly the figure includes kibbutzim and moshavim which are DIFFERENT.' That was a false edit summary (Kibbutzim and moshavim were not mentioned in that source). But I made an accommodation to his point, and reintroduced the section with more specific data and sourcing by writing: ‘by 1987 they (comminity settlements) numbered 95,(Kellerman) and two years later most of the 115 settlements established were of this kind'(Farsakh). (4) I had written:- The design of these principles arose out of a perceived necessity of impeding Palestinian Israelis from residing in such settlements This was based on the source wording: 'The community settlement’ was conceived in this way to avoid the possibility that Palestinian citizens of Israel might make their homes in these settlements.' ( Eyal Weizman, Hollow Land: Israel's Architecture of Occupation. Verso Books, 2012 p.126) Ashtul had rewritten this in the following unrecognizable terms: and monitoring may have a particular shared ideology, religious perspective, or desired lifestyle which they wish to perpetuate by accepting only like-minded individuals.<ref name="Weizman" /> (a) This sentence is totally garbled English. 'Monitoring', cannot be a (human) subject with qualities like a shared ideology: it is a process exercised over people, etc.(b) it radically alters the source language that clearly states the community settlements exclude candidates for residency on ethnic grounds by denying Palestinian citizens of Israel their legal right to live in them, by a euphemism that makes the object of exclusion (Palestinians) into a subject for inclusion 'like-minded individuals'. Whereas the source, and my edit, state Palestinians are excluded, Ashtul twists this into a principle of inclusion, making an ethnic discrimination (against Palestinians) into an ethnic affirmation (of Jewishness). That's typical of his editing all over these articles. He makes Palestinian realities disappear in the face of sources that describe them. His edit summaries are deceptive, his reference to relevant policies incomprehensible, and his respect for the wording of highly reliable sources indifferent.Nishidani (talk) 16:49, 25 February 2015 (UTC) Ashtul. I'm not going to be dragged into an argument by you. If any admin thinks my editing is problematical, they are welcome to ask me to explain. I can't see you managing to grasp the policy and practice issues raised in explanation I have provided at numerous talk pages, including admin talk pages. So it is pointless for me to continue, other than to note you were asked by an admin not to follow me around as a condition for returning to edit, accepted not to do so, and now have immediately followed up a comment I made on an extremely obscure page (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Death of Binyamin Meisner) by giving your opinion. Nishidani (talk) 18:23, 25 February 2015 (UTC) Cptnono. I appreciate your suggestions. I think any editor who's been around the I/P area will have a list of many editors who have found them 'frustrating', not to speak of the hundreds of IP or brief stagers who enter dramatically, cause fuss, and are quickly sent off. I've never had any problems, as you can see in my record, dealing with editors who have a thorough knowledge of the rules, respect WP:RS, look to WP:NPOV and who would thoroughly disagree with me in private. I have exercised restraint from December, I think, by asking an admin (EJ) or two (HJMitchell) to have a word with Ashtul over Skunk (weapon) and other articles, and I've called on your good offices to help out twice (here and here]) at Carmel, Har Hebron. Despite my frustrations, I preferred administrative persuasion rather than recourse to sanctions for infractions (that were multiple), Ashtul is one of only two people I've reported in 9 years, and he's no where as hostile as many I've ignored. His problem is, (a) an insouciance to mastering even the elementary principles of policy and (b) a capacity to cause a major needless inflation of work for fellow-editors because of that. That is what disturbs me. I made no opposition when he asked to come back soon after a suspension; I made no report when I saw further formal infractions. I made one slip, and apologized, in editing with him. Indeed, yesterday, when I saw Ed's suggestion, I opened this page to request a halving of the suggested sanction. When I did so, I saw his screed. On my page he was being amicable, on this page he wrote out an incomprehensible denunciation of my behavior, and saw a conspiracy afoot among other editors. I'm still amenable to a reduction of the suggested period. I don't think an interaction ban workable, since it would mean neither he nor I could edit many I/P pages, and it would imply I am half the problem. The problem is simple: this time, he needs a serious rest from the topic, so that, editing other pages, he can learn how to edit, how not to misrepresent sources or policy. 3 months is lenient in this area, but fair. I've sat out that (imposed or self-imposed) on a few occasions, and if Ashtul is committed to working here, it's a strong enough warning to ensure that this area requires scruple in rule observance, care with precisely sourced information, and balance in perspective. Above all he has to learn that we are dealing with two realities, not one.Nishidani (talk) 12:11, 26 February 2015 (UTC) Ashtul. Your additions to me are as incomprehensible as most of your edits or rewrites. I could have made a very long statement taking each of your edits to pieces. I've explained one such example. To avoid WP:TLDR, I'll give another, typical of your 'cleansing' of the text. 10:00, 22 February 2015 Edit summary Ofra is mentioned above. Likud apply to WBS not CS.) What this removed; The first community settlement, Ofra, being established only in 1975, and four of the first five were unauthorized.(ref=Kellerman) The reevaluation and recognition of such settlements as cooperative associations was based on the ascendancy to government of the Likud party, which seconded the rapid growth of closed exurbs in which religious nationalists played a dominant role.(ref=Gorenberg)(ref=Kellerman) The edit summary is absurd, since as my statistics showed, most settlements were CS, and Ofra is alluded to earlier, not discussed. You eventually 'rewrite this' as From 1977, the Likud led government supported expansion in the West Bank and Gaza Strip and in a few years, community settlements were the most common localities in those regions I.e. you (a) removed the documentary basis for the text's assertions or facts (b) cancelled reference the date of Ofra's foundation, where you have a WP:COI since your sisters live there (c) erased the fact that 4 of the first 5 such settlements were unauthorized, (d) removed the reference to such closed exurbs as dominated by religious nationalists and (e) in a totally ineptly phrased reworking wrote: 'community settlements were the most common localities in those regions,' confused a settlement with a locality, and worst of all, explicitly state that Israel's community settlements (115) were more common on the West Bank and the Gaza Strip than the several hundred Palestinian villages, which, in this formulation, are, again 'disappeared'. All of your attempts to rewrite articles show this insensitivity and incompetence, and that is why I wait till your collective edits are done, and revert the damage. To take each edit seriously would mean a huge workload. You keep pestering me to explain an edit, and yet when I show edit after edit, what is wrong, you don't reply but push on.Nishidani (talk) 14:08, 26 February 2015 (UTC) Ashtul. This has nothing to do with a content dispute, or personal animus to get rid of someone, despite your efforts to make it into one. It is to do with the manipulation, inadveretent perhaps, but consistent, of content and sources to achieve a POV, which is what you did in both the examples I provided.Nishidani (talk) 15:17, 26 February 2015 (UTC) Igorp (a) if you can't see Weizman stating the Galilee on p.126 then I suggested you reconsult the page or an optometrist. Other than this I can't help you, unless by indicating it is the 56th word in para.1 (b) This is a lead (WP:LEDE) with summary style, and (c) you apparently haven't read the thread above, where the sources amply documenting (as the body of the text illustrates) the reasons behind community settlements, and settlements generally, are provided. Generally, I am impressed by the amount of niggling examination of details flourished in arbitration as opposed to the disattentive negligance shown in the use of sources during the process of article drafting and talk page discussion. If people learnt to use the scrutiny they display here in the work they contribute, there would be no need for arbitration. I've said enough. This is not about me.Nishidani (talk) 17:12, 26 February 2015 (UTC) Oh Keerist, Igorp! If you had actually followed my editing, and looked at my last edit to the article in question, you would have known that I had based my actual edits from Weizman, also regarding the Galilee on, Eyal Weizman, Hollow Land: Israel's Architecture of Occupation, Verso Books, 2012 pp.125-130, i.e. meaning also p.126. If you look above, you will se3e I cite Weizman twice, the second time on p.126 with a bloody link. Stop this ridiculous barrel-scraping pettifogging.Nishidani (talk) 20:47, 26 February 2015 (UTC) Igorp. Don't keep asking questions that I have already replied to. Nishidani (talk) 11:11, 27 February 2015 (UTC) Igorp. Please reread my comments. I never put anything into this encyclopedia without carefully consulting the source, often the sources, at my elbow. I repeat: the answer to your crazy speculations is already provided above. If you can't see it, drop an email to blind Freddy's dog. It stands out like dog's balls.Nishidani (talk) 22:20, 27 February 2015 (UTC) Nishidani, rather than pass to your boorish "style of communication", I only repeat here my specific question about Galilee what you have not answered below: "I do not see there any expression similar to your and "thwarting the development of a Palestinian state" addition (at least, on p. 126, it seems to me that at 125-130 - too). Please point to a specific place if I'm wrong. Otherwise, Ashtul was right making his 10:47, 23 February 2015: edit after his 1st such one (09:44, 22 February 2015 ) . --Igorp_lj (talk) 22:34, 26 February 2015 (UTC)" --Igorp_lj (talk) 22:51, 27 February 2015 (UTC) Ashtul. I've been abroad for some days. On returning the first and only edits of yours I looked because they were on a bookmarked page (Israeli settler violence) are all disputable, beginning with justificatory editorializing. This is an egregious example of POV pushing for example like this, where you are grossly violating NPOV by having the text assert as a fact that Israeli settlers deserve(d)(sic) to be part of the Israeli mainstream (apart from the poor English) is this where you consolidate the received text, According to B'Tselem 49 Palestinians were killed by Israeli civilians between 2000 and 2010 is settler-related. (Statistics source =B'Tselem) To obtain the run on line The majority of them (sic) is (sic) settler-related as a significant portion of the dead were killed while attempting to infiltrate settlements or attacking Israelis. (Palestinians killed by Israeli civilians in the Occupied Territories, 29.9.2000 - 31.7.2010 source=B'Tselem} Apart from the ineptness endorsement of the use of significant portion as a gloss on 'majority,' and the incoherent grammar, the first link is not specific, and the second for me does not load the names. Did you check the sources for this statement? The statistics 2000-2008, in any case, give 45, not 49 (4 more deaths presumably in two years), and do not bear out the gloss that has been added, in so far as it is grammatically comprehensible. Can you show us where in those links that change of text, attributed to B’tselem is warranted? Thank you.Nishidani (talk) 19:18, 1 March 2015 (UTC) 'I guess you (think) think most settlers are rapists'. Again, if you have this approach to fellow editors, you are frankly in the wrong area of the internet. Nishidani (talk) 20:16, 1 March 2015 (UTC) 'I guess you think most settlers are rapists'. Again, if you have this approach to fellow editors, you are frankly in the wrong area of the internet. Nishidani (talk) 20:16, 1 March 2015 (UTC) Your reply illustrates the problem. I asked you two questions: you reply 'LOL' and then ignore policy by (a) defending the presentation of a POV as an objective fact, and (b) ignoring the second request. The second request highlights the strong probability that you rewrite texts, many of which are defective, without clicking on the putative sources to ascertain whether what you rewrite is source- based or not. The first link fails verification, since it is a generic page with no mention of the data, as does the second, which offers a prospect of a list, but for me, that list does not appear. As far as I can ascertain (I went through the statistics from 2000-2008) 23 of the 45 settlers killings were of unarmed Palestinians. Whoever wrote that text did a piece of WP:OR and attributed it to B'tselem, which then your rewrite endorsed. If that represents the same proportions in the unaccessed data for 2000-2010, then you readjustment is deceptive in pleading a cause, rather than simply presenting the reader with facts. Thirdly, it is apparent from another declaration here that you do not understand NPOV. Worse, editors who encounter just one edit like that, are, if they are careful in their work here, forced to waste 45 minutes searching for the appropriate data not yet available from the page, analyzing it, and then figuring out whether the assumption made is correct or not. 45 minutes of close labour told me it wasn't. In that time you can make a dozen edits. I for one, can't keep up. I tried to show how you were presenting on wikipedia a single statement by an interested party, the head of the settler council, saying Palestinians and Israelis work in peaceful coexistence, as if it were a statement of the reality, rather than, an opinion. Extensive negotiations followed, which failed to drive home this elementary Wikipedia policy. That is an opinion, the (legitimate) POV of settlers. Why couldn’t you see this when it contradicts what Israeli labour unions report, which I have duly cited? As far as I can detect, the reason is in what you now state in remarking Nobody claimed the Palestinians enjoy being under Israeli ruling but that doesn't change the fact they work together with Israelis and have great working relationships. I actually worked there a few years back and know if (sic) for a fact. The massive sprawl of walls of texts with 3 months of grievance and countercharges, quickly hatted, has made this discussion impossible to read. Nishidani (talk) 21:38, 1 March 2015 (UTC) ________________________________________ Refactor per Stifle's request. I don't know why this is such a hard call. Ashtul has been treatedd leniently over the months, compared to the usual rigour in here. He finally got a topic ban on 27 January. It reads:- This restriction is of an indefinite duration, but you may request reconsideration of this topic ban after no less than three months of unproblematic editing elsewhere 22:47, 27 January 2015 A mere two days later he asked for it to be repealed 4 days later he broke the topic ban here, and (and arguably in several other edits) and was quietly counseled re his errors by one of the editors he says forms a pack hunting and hounding him he still could not see the obvious He did a mere 30 edits, and then 3 weeks later, not 3 months, he asked HJMitchel to lift that ban. HJM gave him another chance, on conditions: If you agree to keep a respectful distance from Nishidani, and preferably stick to articles rather than enforcement requests etc, yes I'll lift the topic ban. I'd also suggest you're very careful about sticking to the 1RR. His energetic editing has been challenged by several experienced long term contributors, but the focus of his defense is that I, alone, am the problem. I'll ignore his obsession with me. He is not very careful about (among numerous other problems) IR He cannot tell the difference between fact and opinion (two legitimate but partisan points of view are stated as facts) This was pointed out by User:Nomoskedasticity, (also here) . Ashtul reverted Nomoskedasticity at 18:25, 17 February 2015‎. He was in turn reverted by User:Huldra Ashtul then reverted her at 18:32, 18 February 2015‎ He waited exactly 24 hours and 7 minutes in order to game the 1R rule. Perhaps he had followed Mitchell's advice to the letter, but not to the spirit. Waiting 7 minutes past the expiry line, when two editors of long experience have questioned your original judgement, and failing to engage them meanwhile in depth on the talk page, suggests he was gaming even that rule. He repeated the practice in the example which forms the basis of this complaint. Even with that last revert, as User:Zero0000 pointed out, he had distorted the source in favour of his POV. One could go on for several hours documenting this, but I've hit the refactor limit, I think. In retrospect, his highly confused and confusing divagations above, ever dragging in more complaints, perhaps his return to editing within just 3 weeks of an indefinite topic ban was premature. The 30 odd edits elsewhere show no commitment to the project in general. Nishidani (talk) 21:03, 2 March 2015 (UTC) If any of the mud splashed my way in these repeated assertions of poor editing, bad faith and hounding on my part is sticking and raises administrative suspicions there may be more to this than meets the careful eye, I welcome any request to clarify, here or by email. I will not reply to Ashtul's assertions because I find they skew the evidence to the point of being unrecognizable, and replies only provoke more of the same. Thank you.Nishidani (talk) 11:33, 5 March 2015 (UTC) Statement by (Cptnono) Wouldn't an interaction ban be sufficient instead of a lengthy topic ban? It looks to me like Astul is trying but having a hard time working with Nish. Since no one has offered to mentor the user, maybe give the two an extended break from each other. No reverts. Maybe no talking even. I also still believe that Nish should have been more open to Ashtul's suggestions about settlements but it is hard to collaborate when everyone is off on the wrong foot. Ashtul could bring something good to the project and separating the two like school children (or how about prize fighters) might be all that is needed. Cptnono (talk) 23:07, 25 February 2015 (UTC) @EdJohnston: Astul doesn't appear to be a troll inserting the worst of POV. He actually appears to know what he is editing to the point that he brought up points that were surprising to those well versed in the topic area. The problem is that he has gotten worked up about another editor. I am sure I can name a dozen editors who have been frustrated (legitimately or not) at Nish before. Separate those two by not allowing them to revert each other and the problem could be solved. Would you consider a topic ban? The severity of restrictions has increased dramatically in the last few years and he would not have faced such a lengthy ban for cussing out another editor in the past. I understand that it might be a good thing since enough is enough but a more novel approach could work better. Something like a 6 month ban strikes me as something for the worst of offenders. He hasn't even had that opportunity to screw up that bad yet while he is still making steps (as small as they might be). Is banning him good for the project or is it an easy fix to cutting out drama?Cptnono (talk) 05:23, 26 February 2015 (UTC) Cptnono, Can you please explain me where was I wrong. I start to feel like I have lost my mind and if I do not understand, indeed I should not be allowed to edit at all and be blocked indefinitely. How can there be 1RR violation with not content dispute and WP:WAR? Nishidani doesn't argue the content belongs there. Ashtul (talk) 13:23, 26 February 2015 (UTC) You can't revert twice in a day. It doesn't matter that Nish didn't see talk (it looks like an edit summary was used at least). I'm not saying that was the best way to go about it but the rule was put in place to reduce the once prevalent edit wars. This may not have been an edit war but things would have been calmer if the talk page was used instead of reverting. Just don't revert twice in a day in this topic area even if it feels like no harm is being done.Cptnono (talk) 16:16, 26 February 2015 (UTC) This is at best a 'partial revert'. Nishidani and I have conversed in length here (I believe ~20k out of ~30k in the thread). Then I waited for 24 hours which were miscalculated b/c of local time (I have fixed that). If there was a 1RR on anything which constituted a content dispute I would say - 'sorry, I f***ed up. Ban me indefinitely' but that isn't the case. This is not Carmel case where I made a mistake. It was a content dispute and I broke 1RR. Ashtul (talk) 18:07, 26 February 2015 (UTC) It doesn't matter what it was a best. You fucked up. Man up to it and give the community an assurance that you will respect the process of using the talk page in the future. I totally agree with you that your revert was within reason. However, the process is in place to assure that things are done at a slower and more collaborative pace. Can you show us that you give a shit (I know you do) and lay out how you could have done it better? Or not. Take the 6 months and come back a better editor.Cptnono (talk) 04:02, 27 February 2015 (UTC) Statement by Huldra You need to have a steep learning-curve if you are to survive editing in the Israel/Palestine area, and Ashtul is behind the curve, so to speak. Besides the 1RR violation, he inserts material from clear activist sources, without stating that it is from an activist source. Over on Barkan Industrial Park he insert material from Palestinian Media Watch. Ashtul claims here that the consensus from WP:RSN is that "There are several conversations regarding PMW with the majority concluding it is WP:RS thus I state 'consensus seems to be'." A quick search of the archives gives me this: "PMW is an Israeli organization dedicated to "exposing" the evil of the Palestinians by careful selection of material from Palestinian media. In other words, it is a political organization not a news organisation," and this. That he wants to pass off material from clear activist sources without attribution, shows to me that he still lacks a basic understanding of editing in the area. Huldra (talk) 23:38, 27 February 2015 (UTC) Statement by Igorp lj Nishidani, can you please explain what RS approve this text from the head, quoted by you? also in the Galilee as part of the aim of establishing a 'demographic balance' between Jews and Arabs, and thwarting the development of a Palestinian state. I do not find something about Galilee in RS what you placed below your quote. --Igorp_lj (talk) 16:20, 26 February 2015 (UTC) First of all, I'd suggest not to jump to conclusions, as it has been not so long ago (:) As far as I can see nobody here insists that the disputed paragraph should be in the article. Then the 1-3RR violations' question itself is questionable too. Therefore, I'd ask someone neutral to check out other arguments against Ashtul. Now, to the question of "persecution". Not sure that these accusations are true. Any article may be in WatchList of any party, but ... it's no secret that cooperation with Nishidani isn't easy, especially when it concerns the fact that contrary to his personal POV, which for some reason he is considered neutral. I've already mentioned his didactic tone towards beginners and other things that might just discourage anyone to desire & to do something in Wiki. I think that a problem - isn't Ashtul, who still has the patience and desire to break through the current, not healthy situation. IMHO, it may be a perfect remedy to stop administration in those cases when parties expressed different points of view, but (!) to require from them not to add to an article any text, which wasn't previously agreed on an corresponding Talk page. I'd propose to check this decision for ~ some months' period and after it to see if / how it works.. --Igorp_lj (talk) 18:24, 26 February 2015 (UTC) Nishidani: "I suggested you reconsult the page or an optometrist", "If people learnt to use"... (17:12, 26 February 2015) That's the pity, but this is exactly what I've wrote above about Nishidani's style of "cooperation". Somebody wants to use the formal reasons here. Ok, I simply remind: what you mentioned above is (a)Weizman pp.81-82,pp.120-124 (Nishidani, 16:49, 25 February 2015), not p.126 "Galilee" was mentioned only once - in article's head. One may check the version before Ashtul's edit (09:44, 22 February 2015) : "Galilee" not appears in its body. "I've said enough. This is not about me" (@Nishidani) :( --Igorp_lj (talk) 20:28, 26 February 2015 (UTC) Nishidani (20:47, 26 February 2015, mentioning his 13:08, 22 February 2015: "Failure to read the sources or if read, misinterpreting them. Describing as WP:OR statements in the sources, etc. General incompetence" (sic! See above about his "style) --Igorp_lj (talk)) edit) A pity that I spent my time watching pro-Palestinian product of Weizman, but ... I do not see there any expression similar to your and "thwarting the development of a Palestinian state" addition (at least, on p. 126, it seems to me that at 125-130 - too). Please point to a specific place if I'm wrong. Otherwise, Ashtul was right making his 10:47, 23 February 2015: edit after his 1st such one (09:44, 22 February 2015 ) . --Igorp_lj (talk) 22:34, 26 February 2015 (UTC) * Nishidani (11:11, 27 February 2015) "Don't keep asking questions that I have already replied to." It only means that Ashtul's was right about your wp:OR. :) --Igorp_lj (talk) 17:34, 27 February 2015 (UTC) Statement by (username) Result concerning Ashtul This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above. If this was a first offence it might be closed with no action. But Ashtul has been previously blocked as long as two weeks for violations related to ARBPIA. I propose a six-month topic ban from everything covered by WP:ARBPIA. EdJohnston (talk) 03:41, 24 February 2015 (UTC) Tend to agree with Ed here. A six month topic ban seems appropriate here--Cailil talk 20:06, 25 February 2015 (UTC) I've now gone through the edit history of Community settlement (Israel). There is a definite 1RR violation there. There's no obvious 1RR at Carmei Tzur. Ashtul has an evident POV on these matters, which he is entitled to have if he is willing to edit very carefully. I'm not seeing an adequate level of care, or enough patience in his reading of the sources. So I agree with Cailil that a six-month ban of Ashtul from the scope of ARBPIA will help assure the goal of having these articles be neutral. EdJohnston (talk) 02:18, 26 February 2015 (UTC) +1 on the 6 month TBAN, the POV and refusal to follow the rules leave us with little choice really. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 07:24, 28 February 2015 (UTC) I'm going to sit this one out. I have mixed feelings, and I think the issue is best handled by admins who have come to it cold. I'm not sure about the 1RR violation (what edit was Ashtul's first edit reverting?), but there do seem to be other issues here as well. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 13:53, 1 March 2015 (UTC) Would the parties please refactor their statements to be within the 500-word limit? Stifle (talk) 17:18, 2 March 2015 (UTC) A six month topic ban is amply justified on the basis of this evidence and past behaviour, in my view. Guy (Help!) 17:15, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Steverci

Indef TBAN from topics related to Armenia and Azerbaijan as well as ethnic conflicts related to Turkey. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 02:27, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Request concerning Steverci User who is submitting this request for enforcement Grandmaster (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 20:41, 5 March 2015 (UTC) User against whom enforcement is requested Steverci (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log Sanction or remedy to be enforced Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 2 Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive164#Steverci – Please see this archived report for the evidence, further info in my comments below. If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts) Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, see the system log linked to above. [5] Additional comments by editor filing complaint I resubmit my report on Steverci, as the previous one was closed as no action due to the indefinite ban of Steverci as a sockmaster (see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Steverci/Archive). Since he has already been unblocked, I believe the reason for the dismissal of the previous AE report is no longer valid. In my opinion, in the view of all the disruption caused by this user in arbitration covered areas, BLP articles, and sockpuppetry (see the archived report), this user should not be allowed to edit the Armenia-related articles (covered by arbitration) as if nothing ever happened. Plus, I don't see why anyone would need 5 sock accounts (plus one that was prevented from creation by the system) to edit arbitration covered Armenia related articles, and I personally do not find particularly convincing Steverci's explanation as to why at least two of the sock accounts edited the same articles as the sockmaster account (he claims that that he forgot to log out from socks and log in into main account, see discussion at his talk). In my opinion, Steverci's unblock request should have been discussed at WP:AE, in view of the report that was submitted here just before the ban. I also think that if Steverci is to be granted permission to edit Wikipedia, at the very least he should be banned from AA and related topics. Grandmaster 20:41, 5 March 2015 (UTC) I don't see the point in Étienne Dolet bringing up here alleged misconduct by another editor. If he believes that the other user's conduct deserves the admins' attention, or the report on that other user was closed prematurely, he is free to resubmit it. But whatever other people do cannot be a justification for Steverci's actions, especially considering that he edit warred not just with Parishan, but with many other editors across multiple pages. In addition, Steverci's misconduct is not limited to edit warring only. Steverci has made serious BLP violations, reintroducing the same POV info multiple times despite the warnings from the admin, and as it can be seen from the info presented by Kansas Bear, that was not the only instance of BLP violations by Steverci. On top of everything Steverci was caught using multiple sock accounts, all of which edited the arbitration covered Armenia related articles. I don't see any other editor mentioned here doing anything even remotely close to that. Grandmaster 13:02, 9 March 2015 (UTC) Étienne Dolet, I fail to understand how Steverci's BLP violations or sock puppetry could be "entangled" or "interconnected" with Parishan's editing. Steverci's interactions with Parishan are only a small part of the issues with Steverci's editing. For instance, how Parishan's actions could justify edit warring and BLP violations by Steverci at Douglas Frantz, as described by FreeRangeFrog in the archived report? Grandmaster 18:52, 9 March 2015 (UTC) Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested [6] Discussion concerning Steverci Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks. Statement by Steverci All I really have to add in addition to my previous statement is to remind that the user who was warring my edits, violating 3RR, and had a long history of AA2 edit warring against multiple users in many articles had only gotten a warning. I see no reason why I should be banned from AA2 besides Grandmaster's obvious battleground mentality against Armenian users. And for those who don't want to backtrack through previous discussions, I had never created a sock, I merely misunderstood the rules for alternate accounts, hence why two admins agreed to remove my block soon after it was placed. --Steverci (talk) 23:51, 5 March 2015 (UTC) User:HJ Mitchell Can you please explain the logic behind why you only gave Parishan a warning despite having a longer history of emotional invested edit warring with multiple users and violating the 3RR (which is supposed to guarantee punishment), or this user I reported only getting a warning despite making personal attacks, 3RR, and a clear emotional agenda on many pages evident by just his talk page, and yet you want to jump right into giving me an indefinite ban? I cannot see any less assumption that they will keep "kicking the can" than can be given to me. What happened to what EdJohnston said about Parishian's nationalist POV pushing? If you are putting to much thought into the sandbox, you should know that as I've said before, it was a rough draft where I put all my sources and text on one spot and planned to trim it down later. I've never actually put something like that on a real article. I'll be the first to admit I have an interest in a certain topic, but I've never added or removed anything without sources to support doing so, and quite frankly for how "invested" you claim I am I can't recall ever being hostile or attacking another user (the same can't be said for warned users). Is there even a guideline that talks about "emotionally invested" editing? If there was, almost all editors would be banned. --Steverci (talk) 15:13, 7 March 2015 (UTC) User:Kansas Bear What!? Your links are a perfect example of nitpicking and distortion. There wasn't a reference for that line on Armenian language and I was trying to make it less POV. Over 99% of things listed on List of military disasters are unsourced. There was no source for Tiridates I and ethnicity is usually unimportant; I was discussing it with another editor on talk pages and came to a consensus anyway. I didn't "not like" Hovannisian, I presented a lengthy summary of criticism of his work and false information inside it. Don't put words in my mouth. --Steverci (talk) 23:09, 7 March 2015 (UTC) User:HJ Mitchell Well that is quite curious. I'm not sure if you just read my links or not, but EtienneDolet provides literally dozens of instances where Parishan had been edit warring across many, many articles, all quite recently. If that is not compelling enough to garner any support for sanctions, when considering violating WP:3RR alone is supposed to be an instant block, I don't see how you could support sanctions for me. Also, I noticed your statement on Jaqeli's appeal about loosening things and going from there. Why not consider something similar here? In the first request about me someone mentioned setting a 1RR for Parishan and I. Perhaps we could go that route for me and see how things work? Indefinite sanctions are typically preceded by sanctions that go 24h>1w>1month>etc unless there are personal attacks for blatant vandalism (which I've never done) and seems overly aggressive, especially considering other users are only getting warnings. This could be helpful, it would essentially mean I get a severe sanction if I edit ware again, and if I don't then that would solve the problem. I would agree to not violate it. --Steverci (talk) 18:26, 8 March 2015 (UTC) Statement by Kansas Bear Steverci removes wording in the lead of the Armenian language article which changes the meaning of the sentence to the opposite of what the sentence originally stated. The information was referenced in the article. No explanation in the edit summary.[7] Steverci twice adds the battle of Avarayr to List of military disasters, no source, either time.[8][9] Steverci removes that which he does not like.[10] No explanation in edit summary. Steverci tries to have Richard Hovannisian disqualified as a reliable source because Hovannisian's book states something Steverci does not like. He is later warned about possible BLP violations by Stephen Schultz[11] Steverci edit wars in an unexplained removal of references and referenced information. Which is finally resolved on the talk page.[12][13][14] Steverci is no sooner unblocked than he jumps into an on-going edit war at Lavash.[15][16] Then nearly 2 hours later joins the discussion on the Lavash talk page.[17] Just from these incidents alone, I am not convinced that Steverci is capable of editing neutrally in the areas of Armenia, Azerbaijan and Turkey. --Kansas Bear (talk) 22:21, 7 March 2015 (UTC) Statement by EtienneDolet @HJ Mitchell: To say Parishan's edit-warring was only an issue in 2007 is not what archived AE reports suggest. The closure of his AE report, which I found premature, has everything to do with the conduct of Steverci here. This is not to say that I am defending Steverci's conduct as an editor, but I feel compelled to say that Parishan's reversions of multiple users across multiple AA2 articles a concern in and of itself. Reverting users en masse is not a proper way to solve any problem, even if those users appear to behave poorly. I don't find it acceptable to place blame upon newly registered users as an excusable justification for misconduct either. For the record, this is not the first time Parishan has been implicated in such matters. In a recent recent AE report filed against him, he was formally warned about concerns almost identical to the ones I have brought forth here. The warning, which was conveyed both in the closing remarks of the report, and subsequently notified on his talk page by admin Seraphimblade, is as stated: A request at arbitration enforcement with which you were involved has been closed. The result is "No action taken. Parishan is reminded that edit warring with anonymous editors is still subject to revert limitations, and to report editors editing in the AA area (including anonymous ones) who are behaving poorly here rather than edit warring with them." Even after the formal warning, Parishan proceeds with the same course of action. He hasn’t stopped the edit-warring, nor have I seen him improve his conduct with these type of users since then. It seems that he found it more convenient to edit-war over a vast array of AA2 articles; but this time, he has broadened his scope to include more users (i.e. Steverci, Hayordi, and others), despite being warned about these very same issues in the recent past. More specifically, Parishan along with Steverci have hit the 3RR mark at Shusha massacre, even when he was explicitly reminded about revert limitations and to report editors editing in the AA area who are behaving poorly rather than edit warring with them. How many more warnings should be given for such conduct? Étienne Dolet (talk) 07:57, 9 March 2015 (UTC) Note: My comment does not necessarily have to be directed against Parishan, but I would like to better understand the approach admin HJ Mitchell and others have towards the result of this case. What I see here is a classic case of boomerang, and just because this report was filed by a user who seems to have barely made any interactions with the user in question shouldn't effectively rid another of its consequences. The problems raised here and in the other AE report are not only interconnected, but entangled with one another. Therefore, I simply believe the issues presented here and at the other AE report isn't something that should go unnoticed or overlooked because it has everything to do with the issues at hand. Étienne Dolet (talk) 17:46, 9 March 2015 (UTC) Well, for some reason, incidences, such as the edit-warring at Shusha massacre, have been excluded from this report. My comment was to briefly remind admins about such incidents in the hope that they do not go unnoticed. And again, are admins here considering the options to prevent such episodes from recurring in the future? If so, how is banning one editor here a simple solution to that problem? Étienne Dolet (talk) 19:34, 9 March 2015 (UTC) Result concerning Steverci This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above. From this request, Steverci's statement, and the previous request, I get the distinct impression that Steverci is too deeply invested to edit neutrally in this topic area (admins should read the sandbox linked to in the previous request, for example). I recommend an indefinite topic ban. I can't see anything else having any effect other than kicking the can down the road, and I think Steverci needs to focus his editing in a topic area about which he doesn't feel so strongly. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 13:49, 7 March 2015 (UTC) @Steverci: The reason that AE request was closed as it was was that Parishan's two blocks for 3RR dated from 2007 (ie eight years ago; for context, that's two years before I registered my account) and there was no consensus among admins for any action. The diffs provided gave some cause for concern, but were not compelling enough to garner any support for sanctions. I haven't made any final decision here, anyway. I'd like to gauge the opinions of other admins before anything else. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 12:07, 8 March 2015 (UTC) Not sure how uninvolved I am, since I closed the previous AE request as moot, and I also have Shusha on my watchlist, time to time reverting vandalism and POV edits, but the diffs, and, in particular, presented by Kansas Bear, look very much concerning to me. I would support topic ban on everything related to Armenia, Azerbaijan, and Turkey, brooadly construed.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:37, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Cwobeel

Block lifted now that the immediate issue has been resolved; comments on the longer-term issue ar invited at the original AE request (which I'm about to un-archive). HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 14:44, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
[Copied from User talk:Cwobeel per Cwobeel's request via email.] ―Mandruss ☎ 19:28, 9 March 2015 (UTC) Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED). Appealing user Cwobeel (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – - Cwobeel (talk) 13:23, 9 March 2015 (UTC) Sanction being appealed WP:NEWBLPBAN - 15-day block [18] Administrator imposing the sanction HJ Mitchell (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) Notification of that administrator [19] Statement by Cwobeel Background After disagreement about adding material to the Steven Emerson article, I started a BLP/N thread asking uninvolved editors to weigh in, regarding ChrisGualtieri's opinion that the material was a violation of BLP, and his claims that WP:BLPREQUESTRESTORE would apply. The thread was started on March 4 [20] . Several editors weighted in, including Nomoskedasticity, Binksternet, Atsme, and Serialjoepsycho, and after a discussion that lasted until March 6, we arrived to consensus that the material was properly sourced to impeccable publications and not violating BLP. In Binksternet's words: The text shown above is a fine example of a BLP-compliant, WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV-compliant summary of what prominent views are held about Emerson. Many more sources agree with the evaluation, so the above text is arguably too weak, suggesting that only these two sources think Emerson is an Islamophobe. Binksternet (talk) 17:30, 4 March 2015 (UTC). The only editor opposing was ChrisGualtieri (the filer of the AE report that resulted in the sanction). I responded to Binksternet's request for additional sources, as well as added Emerson's rebuttal to the proposed edit, for balance and NPOV. After a discussion related to the possible need for an admin to close the BLP/N discussion at WP:ANFRC, I stated that ANRFC is for cases in which there is no clear consensus. As there was obvious consensus for inclusion, I went ahead and made the edit at 05:10, on March7: [21] The edit was reverted by Gualtieri [22]], followed by an AE report [23] As a result of the AE report, HJ Mitchell blocked me for 15 days, without affording me a chance to defend myself at AE against what I believe was a spurious complaint. I made several requests on my talk page for a review of the block, but there was no response. Therefore, I appeal the block per my defense as follows: I followed WP:DR, starting a discussion at BLP/N after the material was challenged and removed by ChrisGualtieri. Consensus was achieved after discussion, with a clear demarcation that impeccable sources can be used to support content about living people. WP:BLP was designed to get articles right, but not designed to suppress material about living people, providing that high quality sources are provided to support viewpoints, and provided that there is consensus to override WP:BLPREQUESTRESTORE. After my block, Binksternet restored the material, with an unequivocal edit summary of Revert... this is not BLP-violating material. [24] - Gualtieri does not file an AE report, and no sanctions are imposed on Binksternet, for exactly the same edit I made. In discussions in the aftermath of the block, all editors commenting at AE, at BLP/N, and in my talk page raised concerns about the block and/or made statements in support of the inclusion of the material, (with the exception of Gualtieri, and Atsme), including Uninvolved Two kinds of pork: [25] Uninvolved Nomoskedasticity: [26]] Uninvolved Serialjoepsycho: [27] Uninvolved MrX: [28] Uninvolved Alanscottwalker [29], [30] Binksternet: [31] There was not a single editor supporting the block, with the exception of Gualtieri which I believe used AE as a way to get the upper hand in a content dispute after his arguments were found to be invalid, and his claims of BLP violation to be baseless and unfounded. I understand that a better course of action would have been for a third party to close the BLP/N discussion, but consensus was obvious, and the material in question and its sources remain in the article (with some edits performed later on by Binksternet). Gualtieri could have avoided this entire drama, by simply accepting the established consensus and moving on (as he did after Binksternet's edits), instead of filing an AE to get me blocked. I acknowledge that I have been blocked previously, but I believe I have learned my lessons, and I have followed process looking to establish consensus for material that is challenged to ensure full compliance with BLP. I also believe that ArbCom discretionary sanctions on BLPs were not designed to be used to suppress carefully sourced content about living persons, as well argued by Nomoskedasticity in his comment at AE, when there is an obvious consensus for inclusion. I kindly request the block to be reviewed, as I believe the AE report by the OP was not made in good faith and the block was made in haste, given there was consensus for inclusion, and that the sources were of the highest quality as required by WP:BLP. I also ask for the block to be temporarily lifted so that I can respond at AE; I will strictly confine myself to edits there until the appeal is closed. - Cwobeel (talk) 14:08, 9 March 2015 (UTC) Statement by HJ Mitchell Statement by Serialjoepsycho I wanted to offer that it seems even atsme supported inclusion of the material upon finding the related was being discussed for the body of the article not just the lead[32]. Cwobeel thought he had a consensus while placing the content in the article. This certainly seems reasonable and in good faith. He actively discussed the content and then made a change off what he thought in good faith was a consensus. Others who were involved prior to the page being locked down for a month have since made changes to to disputed content, and in some cases without discussing the content or without a good faith belief that they had gotten a consensus. -Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 23:00, 9 March 2015 (UTC) MrX below points out below that it wasn't ideal for Cwobeel to determine the consensus. That was the point I was trying to get across, in the conversation Chris highlights, to Cwobeel and specifically for this reason, that is so that DS aren't wielded as weapons. It very much seems that Cwobeel had a consensus to make these changes, meeting the requirements of WP:BLPREQUESTRESTORE. He made these changes with a goodfaith belief that he had a consensus. His changes still stand in the article now, slightly changed, but restored with out discussion on the same basis by Binksternet.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 12:09, 10 March 2015 (UTC) Statement by ChrisGualtieri Let's be clear - Cwobeel was not blocked for a "BLP violation" by introducing gross attacks on a biography, it was a violation of WP:BLP. This is shown by repeatedly reinserting the problematic material after its removal by two different editors, reinserting it after a month of protection, taking it to BLPN, reinserting it again and ignoring four different warnings and BLP policy about keeping the material out of the article until the problem was resolved at BLPN. Cwobeel was the editor who created the third BLPN discussion about this very issue and acknowledged WP:BLPREQUESTRESTORE yet had already resorted to reinserting the material twice more. I personally approached Cwobeel and advised him of the policy.[33] Cwobeel was also informed of a proper close procedure by Serialjoepsycho. In particular I note Serialjoepsycho's comment I don't think it would be appropriate to do anything but follow the procedure at WP:CLOSE. Because you have already been unable to close yourself. I recommend a admin closure just to avoid any unneeded drama in relation to a non-admin closure. ... Despite all of this, Cwobeel choose again to reinsert it despite my final warning about him not reinserting it. Given Cwobeel was just sanctioned for BLP issues and repeatedly and improperly restoring BLP material (not defamatory either) I resolved to take it to AE to stop the disruption. The peaceful and unanimous decision resulting in achieving an actual NPOV which all parties at BLPN agreed to show that despite differences - a compromise and clear consensus worked. Again, Cwobeel was blocked for violating BLP - not a BLP violation. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 04:20, 10 March 2015 (UTC) @HJ Mitchell: The reason the pings did not work was because they were not in the edit with a signature. Given that the page is locked for another extended period, the block will expire without further disruption possible by Cwobeel on said page. There is still no consensus as to the content and wording - but my main issue is that Cwobeel's poor understanding of BLP yet his insistence to the contrary while making BLPN noticeboard a defined area of interest. Most of my concern follows with Cwobeel citing literature from Emerson's personal enemies in response to the federal judge's ruling that they are connected to Hamas... Emerson used the FBI and the ruling in reference and he took them to court over a "joke" about Emerson and pornography. I don't see how using commentary from members of the organization is neutral, but I suppose that bridge needs to be crossed at BLPN next. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 18:06, 12 March 2015 (UTC) Statement by Binksternet The block on Cwobeel was made in error, as HJ Mitchell should have assessed the re-inserted text for possible BLP violations, which he acknowledges he did not.[34] Instead, he blocked Cwobeel for re-inserting the disputed text while discussion was still underway at BLPN. However, the disputed material had never been shown to be a BLP violation by ChrisGualtieri or Atsme; they presented a barrage of complaints about the material, but it was cited to high quality sources written by scholars, so they were off base in their complaints. After I came to the BLPN discussion to say that the sources were top notch, Cwobeel reworked the suggested text and got approval from everybody who commented, except ChrisGualtieri and Atsme. Thus it appeared that the material could no longer be considered a BLP violation, and WP:BLPREQUESTRESTORE was satisfied. HJ Mitchell said that the block was made as an arbitration enforcement, as he had seen this AE request from ChrisGualtieri. HJ Mitchell had responded to ChrisGualtieri by noting that Cwobeel was prone to making BLP violations and had been blocked for them so many times that an escalation of sanctions was in order.[35] At no time did HJ Mitchell demonstrate his understanding that an actual violation of BLP had taken place, by commenting on the disputed text and references. Instead, he took the word of ChrisGualtieri at face value. It's ChrisGualtieri that is in error here, not Cwobeel. ChrisGualtieri filed a tendentious AE request to get the upper hand in a content dispute, after seeing that the BLPN discussion was not going his way. He lucked into HJ Mitchell who did not bother to examine the disputed text and references, a requirement of BLP enforcement requests. Should Cwobeel be very careful in BLP matters? Of course; Cwobeel had been very careful to propose new wording at BLPN, and to wait until multiple positive comments about it. Should Cwobeel be banned for an extended pattern of BLP violations? No, improvement has been seen, with Cwobeel working hard to follow procedure. This case is not sufficient to use against Cwobeel for further sanctions; instead it should boomerang onto ChrisGualtieri and Atsme for making false assertions of a BLP violation, and onto ChrisGualtieri for filing a tendentious AE request. Binksternet (talk) 15:42, 10 March 2015 (UTC) Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Cwobeel Statement by MrX I am uninvolved with editing the Steven Emerson article, but have commented about BLP concerns at WP:BLP/N. I have encountered both Cwobeel and ChrisGualtieri at various articles and talk pages, and respect both editors for their contributions. I don't favor one over the other. As I commented in the previous AE case, I think blocking Cwobeel was unwarranted and could have been handled a little better. First, Cwobeel made a good faith edit restoring content that he believed had reached a rough consensus for inclusion. As has been adequately demonstrated at WP:BLP/N, there was no BLP violation; there was merely a claim of such. Arbcom of 2008 identified issues with the implementation of the BLP policy. Almost seven years later there are a few editors who, in my opinion, use overly legalistic interpretation of the policy and filibustering to block content that they view as unfavorable to certain subjects, but not others. WP:BLP/N of the past several months contains numerous examples of this. Notably, WP:ACDS specifically instructs editors not to game the system, yet editors are rarely sanctioned for doing so. While it seems that HJ Mitchell acted within the bounds of discretion, the block was a little hasty and did not afford Cwobeel an opportunity to defend himself. I'm disappointed that I have to raise this again, having heard no explanation from HJ Mitchell when I mentioned it two days ago. WP:ACDS# states "Prior to placing sanctions that are likely to be controversial, administrators are advised to elicit the opinions of other administrators at AE." My observations suggest this is standard practice at AE, yet HJ Mitchell acted independently. Cwobeel was not the best candidate to evaluate consensus and restore his own favored content, but that's more of a technicality than a sanctionable offense. Cwobeel should be unblocked as promptly as he was blocked, and those involved should consider other options in the future. - MrX 02:23, 10 March 2015 (UTC) Statement by Collect I find the ArbCom stated position on BLPs to be binding here. As Wikipedia has a strong ability to actually do harm to living persons, it is essential that it specifically avoid doing so. This is not being "legalistic" , it is following non-negotiable policies, and goes back to Hillel the Elder and before. I rather think the sanction was reasonable, and with the acts still current, DS rules about BLPs required action. It is, moreover, true that adding material which has been suggested in any way to be violative of WP:BLP to be unwise, and I suggest there is strong reason to continue to hold that position. Collect (talk) 13:55, 10 March 2015 (UTC) Statement by Ubikwit While there is no doubt that the block was made in accord with policy, the corresponding countermeasures would seem to require some fine tuning, as recourse to BLP claims are rampant and often incorrect. As pointed out during the block discussion, by Serialjoepsycho I believe, the case was not so straightforward, and that begs the question as to preventative measures and assessment of the actual status of disputes where BLP violations are being claimed. Aside from supporting the appellant, I think that measures such as simply rolling back edits and removing the contentious material, combined with page protection followed by an assessment of the status of the dispute at BLP/N, i.e., the consensus regarding BLP violations, would prevent unnecessary conundrums regarding BLP claims, which are often found to have been made in error. --Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 17:16, 10 March 2015 (UTC) Statement by Xenophrenic Now that Callanecc has fully protected the Emerson article for two months because of almost constant edit warring on the page for around a month (only 9 days, actually, since it was last fully protected, during which there appears to have been more article improvement than edit warring), I suggest that the block on Cwobeel is now redundant and not useful. That is IF, as HJ Mitchell says, the block was necessary to prevent the immediate disruption of the disputed material being reinstated. If, however, the present block on Cwobeel is meant to be punative, I would like to add my agreement with the many editors above who say that Cwobeel exercised an acceptable (albeit not perfect) level of care in interpreting community consensus at the BLP/N discussion he initiated, and that his edits were made in good faith and did not constitute a sanctionable offense. Xenophrenic (talk) 18:22, 12 March 2015 (UTC) Statement by Two kinds of pork @HJ Mitchell:, no one is saying you "sinned" here, and I apologize for calling your block unwarranted. I know admins get a lot of flack, and know that you know it comes with the territory, but admins are people too. That being said I would rephrase that to say the block was perhaps hasty. My first involvement with Cwobeel was acrimonious to say the least, but we have buried the hatchet and I consider our relationship to be friendly, even though we have at times stark difference of opinions. I have zero involvement with the Emerson article, and after spending the better part of two days of reviewing the talk-pages, BLPN, user pages, etc. I mostly endorse MrX and Binksternet's comments above. Being involved, Cwobeel should not have been the person to determine consensus, that is true. In my review I think his position that there was consensus appeared to be a reasonable conclusion. Would you consider this discussion a final warning should such a situation occur again and agree to unblock?Two kinds of porkMakin'Bacon 14:26, 13 March 2015 (UTC) Result of the appeal by Cwobeel This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above. @HJ Mitchell: After having read Cwobeel's comments what's your opinion on whether to lift the block? Also noting that, after having had a look at the almost constant edit warring on the page for around a month I'm going to full protect it for a while to try and calm that down a bit. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 02:36, 12 March 2015 (UTC) @HJ Mitchell: I would prefer to hear your take on the block before making any decision. JodyB talk 11:55, 12 March 2015 (UTC) Interestingly, neither of those pings worked, but I have this page watchlisted for my sins. As far as I'm concerned the block was necessary to prevent the immediate disruption of the disputed material being reinstated. If that issue has resolved itself, the block can be lifted, but I think Cwobeel's conduct on BLP issues in general bears examination. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:14, 12 March 2015 (UTC) I'm minded to lift the block given the full protection on the page. Broader issues related to Cwobeel's conduct can be handled separately. (We may want to unarchive the original AE request.) T. Canens (talk) 04:29, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Thargor Orlando

Filing user is TBANed from the area so is not permitted to file request such as this, please email the arbitration clerks for behavioural issues in arbitration space (especially when you're topic banned). Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 22:33, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Request concerning Thargor Orlando User who is submitting this request for enforcement MarkBernstein (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 19:24, 10 March 2015 (UTC) User against whom enforcement is requested Thargor Orlando (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log Sanction or remedy to be enforced Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/GamerGate : Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it [36] Personal Attack Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any I have no idea, and don’t know how to discover this. If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts) Participated in an arbitration request or enforcement procedure about the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on 10 March 2015. Hipocrite (talk) 19:31, 10 March 2015 (UTC) Notification [37] Additional comments by editor filing complaint Thargor Orlando writes at ARCA: Also, this continued spamming of his blog posts and the ThinkProgress blog post is becoming exhausting and self-promotional, and is arguably becoming an issue of a conflict of interests in and of themselves. Since we're here, it is worth a mention. We wouldn't tolerate it from anyone else. NOTE that the matter as ARCA is purely administrative, a clarification of the language of the standard Gamergate topic ban. My deportment is not at issue there and cannot conceivably affect that discussion. Thargor Orlando is seeking to expand my current unjustified and improper sanction through any means at hand. This idea of "conflict of interest" has been widely discussed at KiA in the past 24 hours as a means to effect my site ban; I forwarded two pertinent links to Gamaliel and HJ Mitchell last night. I have indeed been interviewed by a number of newspapers, magazines and broadcasters on the subject of Wikipedia and Gamergate. Expertise does not constitute a conflict of interest. Nor does providing a link to the subject whose discussion gave rise to the technical question before ARCA. If I did not link to my writings, Thargor Orlando would doubtless denounce my perfidious concealment of them. Thargor Orlando and his customary tag team bitterly and successfully edit-warred the inclusion this information on the talk page [38] [39] [40], as he systematically opposes including articles critical of Gamergate and supports including articles that excuse GamerGate harassment. Just days ago he was calling for sanctions against NorthBySouthBaranof because NorthBySouthBaranof had removed clearly BLP-violating sources from the talk page, arguing that the interests of the wiki were served by discussing even self-published sources listed on an attack wiki. Here, he wishes to surpress inconvenient information on any grounds available. Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested Discussion concerning Thargor Orlando Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks. Statement by Thargor Orlando This is simply a retaliatory measure for commenting on his clarification. It's further evidence that his contributions are a negative to the article space. I stand by my edits, as they're well within policy and well within the borders of the arbitration guidelines. Thargor Orlando (talk) 19:35, 10 March 2015 (UTC) To answer Strongjam's questions: 1: Quoting MB: "an activist had contacted me that very day, seeking advice for a Wikipedia initiative among her membership and concerned -- not unreasonably -- over the sort of repercussions that were detailed in Think Progress and previously in a number of other newspapers and magazines." Complete with more unnecessary links to his blog and his ThinkProgress contributions, he's clearly looking to bring his unique and, I believe, disruptive perspective to a new article, especially now that he's gotten word out that he's been sanctioned. 2: Regarding his collaboration, he's been topic banned numerous times, blocked outright multiple times. His contributions to the talk page, when not trying to place an article he was quoted for into the record, involve actual casting of aspersions, battleground editing, playing up prior disputes, trite dismissals, and so on and so forth. MarkBernstein needed to be topic banned from this space months ago. Thargor Orlando (talk) 20:39, 10 March 2015 (UTC) Statement by Strongjam The statements are casting aspersions and should either be retracted or backed up with diffs. — Strongjam (talk) 19:40, 10 March 2015 (UTC) To be clear these two assertions needs some sort of evidence: "Mark's own intentions in this clarification is to drag the drama he continually creates within the Gamergate space into the campus rape disputes." "he has continually shown himself unable to collaborate constructively in the space" — Strongjam (talk) 20:22, 10 March 2015 (UTC) Statement by DHeyward Specious and tendentious actions by MarkBernstein to bring a comment from ARCA to enforcement is beyond the pale. The background he gives is indicative of the exact complaint that Thargor Orlando lodged at ARCA. If anything, the result should be a boomerang preventing MarkBernstein from bring GamerGate issues to any noticeboard to go along with his topic ban. MarkBernstein is topic banned in this area and it appears he is exploiting process to keep discussing a topic he is prohibited from discussing on-wiki. His own personal attack above is far more egregious than anything said at ARCA. --DHeyward (talk) 20:46, 10 March 2015 (UTC) Gamaliel, MarkBernstein's topic ban had nothing to do with ThinkProgress. it was his continued disruption by commenting on other editors and his long history of doing so. Two administrators found his language problematic and one considered the numerous other warnings for exactly the same disruption to be worthy of a sanction. Please familiarize yourself with the reason for the topic ban. Other editors are and have been subjected to the same sanction for far less violations of the NPA policy. --DHeyward (talk) 21:04, 10 March 2015 (UTC) Statement by (username) Result concerning Thargor Orlando This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above. I don't think this quite rises to the level of a personal attack, but I do think that this is the sort of problem that arises when one party is given an incredibly broad sanction restricting what he can say and while others he is opposed to are not. If Mark Bernstein's mild comments about objections to ThinkProgress are to be considered so incredibly disruptive that they merit a topic ban, then why are Thargor Orlando's equivalent comments about Mark Bernstein's remarks related to ThinkProgress not sanctionable? Behavior is either disruptive or it is not, it is not disruptive just because Mark Bernstein says it. Either drop the scope of the restrictions on Mark Bernstein or extend them to all parties editing Gamergate. Gamaliel (talk) 19:59, 10 March 2015 (UTC) WP:BANEX permits only dispute resolution related to the topic ban itself, and in any event AE traditionally leaves policing arbcom's own pages to the committee and its clerks. This request should be summarily dismissed. T. Canens (talk) 04:14, 11 March 2015 (UTC) Agree with T. Canens that Mark's ban prevents him from complaining about the behavior of others in the same topic area. The only acceptable reason he could be here at AE on the topic of Gamergate is for clarification or changes in his own ban. EdJohnston (talk) 04:37, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Theduinoelegy

Blocked for one week for TBAN vio. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 22:29, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Request concerning Theduinoelegy User who is submitting this request for enforcement Hipocrite (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 16:52, 11 March 2015 (UTC) User against whom enforcement is requested Theduinoelegy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log Sanction or remedy to be enforced Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/GamerGate#Discretionary_sanctions : Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it 16:33, 11 March 2015 "It" is gamergate. The user in question is banned from "all edits about ... (a) GamerGate," per [41] Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any 25 February 2015 90 day topic ban If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts) Previously given a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict on 04:28, 25 February 2015 by Dreadstar (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA). Additional comments by editor filing complaint This was not an appeal of the users topic ban or an administrative process related to the user, it was mere disruptive point scoring behavior. That is a violation of the topic ban, in addition to being grossly uncivil. Hipocrite (talk) 16:52, 11 March 2015 (UTC) Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested [42] Discussion concerning Theduinoelegy Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks. Statement by Theduinoelegy Statement by Tony Sidaway Also this, apparently after being notified of this request. This editor seems to think they can take a wikibreak for a few weeks then continue as before. Perhaps we should consider a long block and a direct instruction to stay away from the topic indefinitely. --TS 19:40, 11 March 2015 (UTC) Statement by (username) Result concerning Theduinoelegy This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above. I'm going to block for one week in a minute as the comment was disruptive and incivil as well as being a TBAN vio. Hopefully one week will reinforce that they need to stay away from GamerGate. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 22:24, 11 March 2015 (UTC)