Talk:Q188047

«The coat of arms of Lithuania: the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and the Republic of Lithuania» is a totally inaccurate statement and should be removed. There are no reliable sources were provided that Lietuva (modern Lithuania) is the same with the Grand Duchy of Lithuania (historical Lithuania). On the other hand, Andrew Wilson, a British historian specializing in Eastern Europe, writes in his book Belarus: The Last European Dictatorship (Yale University Press, 2012): The entity referred to as medieval ‘Lithuania’ in fact had the full name of ‘Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Rus and Samogitia’. Its short name was ‘Litva’. This is not the same thing as ‘Lithuania’. In the modern Lithuanian language, the word for ‘Lithuania’ is Lietuva (p. 21—22). <...> Most of what is now Belarus was part of ‘Litva’ proper. (p. 33). Moreover, another historian specializing in the history of Central and Eastern Europe Dr. Prof. Timothy D. Snyder writes in his book The Reconstruction of Nations: Poland, Ukraine, Lithuania, Belarus, 1569-1999 (Yale University Press, 2003): During the period of dynastic union with Poland, Lithuania became an East Slavic realm in which the gentry enjoyed rights relative to the sovereign (p. 22). Before 1863, the most common self-appellation of the largest group in Russia’s Northwest Territory — Belarusian-speaking peasants — was apparently “Lithuanian” (p. 49). By removing the historical sense of the term “Lithuanian” in the popular mind, Russian power cleared the way for a modern, ethnic definition of Lithuania, and simplified the task of Lithuanian activists (p. 50). <...> The conflation of an old politonym with a new ethnonym (“Lithuania”) prevented non-Belarusians from seeing the connection between modern Belarus and the early modern Grand Duchy of Lithuania (p. 81) <...> As we have seen, the traditions of the Grand Duchy were altered beyond recognition by Lithuanian and Polish national movements, as well as Russian imperial and Soviet states. They have changed least perhaps in the lands we now call Belarus (p. 281). --Kazimier Lachnovič (talk) 22:40, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

• In the Historical dictionary of Belarus (a part of Historical Dictionaries series) an American historian of Belarusan descent Dr. Jan Zaprudnik (1998 edition) states: «One should also keep in mind the terminological specifity: the meaning of such terms as “Rus”, “Belarus”, and “Litva” (Lithuania) were quite different in past centuries from today» (p. 139).
• Welsh-Polish historian with special interest in Central and Eastern Europe Dr. Prof. Norman Davies, Professor at the Jagiellonian University, professor emeritus at University College London, a visiting professor at the Collège d'Europe, and an honorary fellow at St Antony's College, Oxford, writes in Litva: The Rise and Fall of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania (2013): «In its modern spelling, written as Lietuva, it is the modern Lithuanian name for Lithuania. According to scholars of the Belarusian persuasion, however, Litva was originally the homeland of a Slavic tribe, and had no connection with the Balts until the Balts moved south, absorbed the Slavic tribe and purloined its name» <...> «The Metryka Litevska or ‘Lithuanian Register’ is the commonest collective name for the original indexes/archival inventories of the grand duchy’s central chancery. <...> The principal languages employed are ruski (Old Belarusian), Latin and Polish».
• In addition to the provided quotes there are some very related quotes from The Rise and Fall of Belarusian Nationalism, 1906–1931 (2015, University of Pittsburgh Press) by Swedish-American historian Dr. Prof. Per Anders Rudling, specializing in the areas of nationalism: „Lithuania — or Letuva, Litva, Litwa, Lietuva, or Lite, as it was called in the five local languages — was commonly not thought of in the same terms as it is today, as an ethnic nation-state of the Lithuanian people. <...> In the early nineteenth century, “Belarusian” or “Lithuanian” did not yet denote any particular ethnic belonging. <...> As a state symbol, the BNR adopted the Pahonia, "the chase", a stylized image of an armed knight on a white stallion against a red background. This symbol had deep roots, going back to the fourteenth century. <...> ...the Pahonia was nearly identical to the coat of arms of the newly proclaimed Lithuanian state; <...> The Belarusian People's Republic had established a three-band white-red-white flag, and a modified version of the coat of arms of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania.“
• So, according to many contemporary specialized reliable sources, the proclaimed in the 20th century modern Lithuanian state (with own name Lietuva) is not the same Lithuanian state as the Grand Dutchy of Lithuania (with own name Litva). --Kazimier Lachnovič (talk) 16:16, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

Go see en:Coat of arms of Lithuania.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 17:23, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

Why are you posting an article that you edited yourself? We need scientific sources. --Лобачев Владимир (talk) 17:27, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

The sources in the article en:Coat of arms of Lithuania are scientific. The Wikidata page should reflect what is written in the Wikipedia page, not your personal opinion that the Coat of arms of Lithuania appeared only in 1991.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 17:34, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

The Wikidata page should reflect not what is written in the English Wikipedia, but what is written in scientific sources. Not a single scientific source says that the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and the modern Republic of Lithuania are synonymous. --Лобачев Владимир (talk) 17:43, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

A) Wikidata:Introduction: Special Sitelinks connect an item to corresponding content on client wikis, such as Wikipedia, Wikibooks or Wikiquote. The Wikidata page SHOULD reflect what is written in the English Wikipedia. B) You are creating a false distinction - the article in English Wikipedia is based on reliable sources. C) No one is saying that the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and the modern Republic of Lithuania are synonymous. No one says that the German Empire and Weimar Germany are synonymous. Even so, both the German Empire and Weimar Germany are Germany, while Grand Duchy of Lithuania and the modern Republic of Lithuania are both Lithuania.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 18:09, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

In modern languages, Lithuania is a modern state that arose in 1918. And the state that existed from the 13th century to 1975 1775 mainly on the territory of Belarus and Ukraine and the state Old Russian language is the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. From 1775 to 1918, the successor of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania was the Russian Empire. And don't mix everything together. --Лобачев Владимир (talk) 19:10, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

There are no reliable sources that the the own name of "German" was different (not of the German language and, therefore, of the German people) in the German Empire or Weimar Germany. And the reliable sources for such difference for "Lietuva" (own name for modern Republic of Lithuania) and "Litva" (own name for the Grand Dutchy of Lithuania) are provided above. --Kazimier Lachnovič (talk) 09:38, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Lithuania existed already before 1918. It is Belarus that appeared in 1918. The Grand Duchy of Lithuania did not always include Belarus or Ukraine, but it was always focused on Lithuanian lands. Лобачев Владимир is the one confusing everything, including dates. The Russian Empire was not the successor of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, just like it isn't the successor of the Kingdom of Poland. The Grand Duchy of Lithuania did not end in 1975 (I guess you mistyped 1795), and the Russian Empire did not exist in 1918, because it ended already in 1917. The Russian Empire could not be a successor of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania in 1775-1795, because the Grand Duchy of Lithuania still existed at the time. How can the Russian Empire be a successor to something that still existed at the time? Лобачев Владимир is making very obvious mistakes about basic historical facts. Moreover, the Grand Duchy of Lithuania was frequently referred to as Lietuva already when it existed. Go see the undeniable examples shown in en:Name of Lithuania.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 20:07, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Ukrainian patriots sometimes call Ukraine Rus. From this, Ukraine does not become the successor of Kievan Rus. Modern Moldavia is not the legal successor of the Principality of Moldavia. And the Holy Roman Empire is not the heir of Ancient Rome. Modern Romania is also not the heir to the Roman Empire. --Лобачев Владимир (talk) 13:24, 28 January 2022 (UTC)