I agree with all of this. My single addition is to say the format is to blame for the teams all on 4 points. That was just the teams and would happen otherwise I think
As a matter of principle, I'm not a fan of the 24-team tournament, in terms of [a] more teams dilutes the idea that this is an elite level tournament, and [b] A format that allows for 3rd-placed teams to go through feels kinda lame.
For all that, I've really enjoyed the group stage! More teams means there has been more chance of an unfavored team playing a blinder - Austria in terms of overall performances, and then some cracking individual games like Georgia's win yesterday. I think it was Lars that said something to the effect that Portugal rested players yesterday but history will just remember this was an absolutely cracking game. As an offset to overperforming 'minnows' there is also the flipside, that the higher-ranked teams may be more prone to be burned out and/or less motivated (don't ask me for my scientific backup to this theory).
Have to say I'm suffering some withdrawal symptoms today, but on the plus side I've got a lot more work done! (the games have been 9am and noon here on the west coast of the USA)
Reinforcing that same point, the constant repetition of the 'hard side of the draw' and how England are lucky to have avoided it, is annoying
Germany - only avoided coming second in their group with an injury time winner against the Swiss
Denmark & Slovenia - drew 3 games
Spain - ok, no arguments there!
Georgia - amazing result against Portugal but only got 1 other point
France & Belgium - underwhelming, 2nd in their groups
Portugal - Hard to know if their Georgia loss was from resting players
Oh God I laughed at Barry saying he’d never read Tintin but that he knew he looked like Jimi Somerville. ��
Also laughed when Lara spoke in a way that reminded me so much of Eddie Izzard. What a treat today’s pod was.
Barry stating that the Belgium-Ukraine game was a good 0-0 is clearly Group C hangover recency bias. It was bloody awful.
There was a telling moment early in the second half when De Bruyne played in Doku who squared the ball perfectly into the six yard box for *somebody* to tap in. Reminding me instantly of Nicky Bandini's comment on a recent pod as to how many national teams would love a forward of Kane's standing. Lukaku looked on hopelessly a few yards behind as the ball passed through and out the other side.
Really admirable from the Georgians... If anyone needed any reference points for other (bigger and closer to home) nations that didn't/haven't even flattered to deceive... That is what Turning Up looks like.
A nation that came 4th in qualifying and only beat Cyprus along the way has really taken its opportunity with both hands. The likes of Murray excusing the Scottish coaching staff by saying that the players just weren't good enough looks a bit laughable now that a team that finished 9 points behind Scotland in qualifying makes it through a group arguably as tough as the one his nation were handed. Yes there they got the pot 1 team after they had qualified but their fight and spirit in every match has been unparalleled.
I do slightly worry for them against Spain though given that the Spanish beat 7-1 in Tbilisi in qualifying - but hell they're there at least.
Yea it's funny that Barry labels the England arrogant about their team yet refers to Colombia and Brazil as no one.
Your point on how good teams are at a point in time is also very true.
It's funny because people use it to denigrate Southgate by saying he only beat the "worst Germany ever" in 2021 (which is wrong anyway as 2000 and 04 were far worse) but they never say he beat an excellent Denmark.....
I'm beginning to wonder if Premier League exhaustion is a factor in how some of these games have fizzled out (plus Bellingham going the whole way in the Champions League)? Georgia and Austria cited as the breakout successes of the group stage having no Premier League players, the Premier League players who were resting on the sidelines injured for large stretches of the season, etc.
It's great we have a couple of days to navel gaze at the eternal English question of square pegs, round holes and self regarding expectations.
It's seemed fairly obvious from the off.
If you are an essentially conservative manager, playing an attacking 4, at least two of those 4 need to be able to run fast. As it stands, only one of them can. Saka. And he's not been in the best form. But he's fast.
Foden is fleet of foot on the ball and fast of thought, but he's not going to stretch a defence.
Kane is all about his brain and his execution. He'd not strike fear into most defenders based on his sprinting.
Bellingham is a wonderfully gifted attacking midfielder.
So one of them has to go in the name of balance and options.
Maybe, with hindsight, dropping Rashford and Stirling wasn't the best idea. Sure, both were pretty dud last season, but they know how to play for Southgate, they both know how to play with Kane. And they both offer(ed) defence stretching runs. If Southgate doesn't really trust Gordon or Eze to do a job, why take them?
The other day The Guardian lamented how few touches in the opposition box England have had so far. This apparently demonstrated England's lack of attacking threat.
At the top of the table they showed was France with 112.
At the bottom was England with 53, with Austria just above them with 58.
The same Austria that everyone is raving about.
Now, I don't think France are playing especially well either, so I'm not sure what the information tells us, but either it's a good metric or it isn't, you can't just use it as a stick to beat England with.
Of course England have been very poor, we can all see that, but there just seems to be a bit of a pile on at the minute, to grasp at anything to attack the team, even, or indeed especially, when it isn't logically consistent.
Italy were knocked out of the group stage at Euro 2004 with 5 points. The points distribution was 5-5-5-0. Italy, Sweden and Denmark all beat Bulgaria and drew with each other.
My absolute top grip is referring to a side as easier or harder based on nothing but history. So in this tournament people will reflect that Netherlands are a good side, Romania are not. France are very good and Austria are not. The reality being that Austria are absolutely flying and there is a reason Romania topped the group,
Had this argument many a time but Southgate’s England played Columbia who topped their group, then Sweden who topped their group. But apparently that is easy. Like Sweden just drew lots and got through not current holders Germany who were in their group
Lot of people saying Southgate always gets lucky with draws compared to previous managers.
It's not purely luck though is it.... he wins groups and therefore is likelier to get an "easier" draw.
He's won the group in 3 of his 4 tournaments, Capello came 2nd in a group of USA, Algeria and Slovenia and Hodgson in a group of Wales, Russia and Slovakia to cite just two recent examples.
He's made his own luck to a degree. In addition to that, there aren't really any "easy" teams in tournaments these days and the big teams of yesteryear don't just steamroll through, last Euros France lost to Swiss and Holland to Czechia, at the WC Croatia eliminated Brazil and Morocco knocked out Portugal
Southgate has his issues but most people refuse to give him any credit for things he's done well.
Based on the last 50 years I think there's a good chance we'll look back on 2018 to 2022 as a golden period and hopefully realise how good we had it.
So.....a Georgia team that trailed Spain +Scotland in the qualifying groups, and who only appeared post that slightly strange nations league play-off set-up, ....are still rightly and proudly, still in the tourney as we get to the meatnof the thing. Yet mu much vaunted scottish team, who were supported so wonderfully by THEIR fans ( Eh, Ingurlund?) are now long home.
My admiration for the Georgian side last night knows no bounds...ability, work, COMMITMENT TO THE CAUSE, and no ' superstar' egos on show...Now, that's what I CALL a side worthy of following.
Well done Georgia...you have my complete admiration .
Oh and on the Ronaldo shirt-pull, my understanding of what the refereeing expert on ITV said was explaining why it wasn't given based on how the rules are interpreted, not that it was 'never a penalty, Clive', which is a very different thing.
On the whole 'how bad will you feel when England get knocked out by Slovakia?' question to Max, it is an interesting one. Losing to Italy in the final was obviously crushing, and playing well and losing late in the tournament (2018, 2022) is really disappointing, but there would be a bleak humour to this one, and it's not like we wouldn't have seen it coming...
History for Georgia and heartbreak for Ukraine - Football Daily
Comments
I agree with all of this. My single addition is to say the format is to blame for the teams all on 4 points. That was just the teams and would happen otherwise I think
As a matter of principle, I'm not a fan of the 24-team tournament, in terms of [a] more teams dilutes the idea that this is an elite level tournament, and [b] A format that allows for 3rd-placed teams to go through feels kinda lame.
For all that, I've really enjoyed the group stage! More teams means there has been more chance of an unfavored team playing a blinder - Austria in terms of overall performances, and then some cracking individual games like Georgia's win yesterday. I think it was Lars that said something to the effect that Portugal rested players yesterday but history will just remember this was an absolutely cracking game. As an offset to overperforming 'minnows' there is also the flipside, that the higher-ranked teams may be more prone to be burned out and/or less motivated (don't ask me for my scientific backup to this theory).
Have to say I'm suffering some withdrawal symptoms today, but on the plus side I've got a lot more work done! (the games have been 9am and noon here on the west coast of the USA)
Reinforcing that same point, the constant repetition of the 'hard side of the draw' and how England are lucky to have avoided it, is annoying
Germany - only avoided coming second in their group with an injury time winner against the Swiss
Denmark & Slovenia - drew 3 games
Spain - ok, no arguments there!
Georgia - amazing result against Portugal but only got 1 other point
France & Belgium - underwhelming, 2nd in their groups
Portugal - Hard to know if their Georgia loss was from resting players
Forgot to say, Ronaldo shouldn’t play. Playing the hits
Can you imagine the fan reaction if he'd picked Rashford?! Southgate wouldn't have made it out of St. George's Park alive!
Oh God I laughed at Barry saying he’d never read Tintin but that he knew he looked like Jimi Somerville. ��
Also laughed when Lara spoke in a way that reminded me so much of Eddie Izzard. What a treat today’s pod was.
Teams are good until England beat them
Feels like full circle is here now calling for rashford back
Barry stating that the Belgium-Ukraine game was a good 0-0 is clearly Group C hangover recency bias. It was bloody awful.
There was a telling moment early in the second half when De Bruyne played in Doku who squared the ball perfectly into the six yard box for *somebody* to tap in. Reminding me instantly of Nicky Bandini's comment on a recent pod as to how many national teams would love a forward of Kane's standing. Lukaku looked on hopelessly a few yards behind as the ball passed through and out the other side.
Really admirable from the Georgians... If anyone needed any reference points for other (bigger and closer to home) nations that didn't/haven't even flattered to deceive... That is what Turning Up looks like.
A nation that came 4th in qualifying and only beat Cyprus along the way has really taken its opportunity with both hands. The likes of Murray excusing the Scottish coaching staff by saying that the players just weren't good enough looks a bit laughable now that a team that finished 9 points behind Scotland in qualifying makes it through a group arguably as tough as the one his nation were handed. Yes there they got the pot 1 team after they had qualified but their fight and spirit in every match has been unparalleled.
I do slightly worry for them against Spain though given that the Spanish beat 7-1 in Tbilisi in qualifying - but hell they're there at least.
I think they meant to say since the current format was brought in... (I.e. since Euro 2016 if memory serves).
I mean Sweden not Brazil haha
Yea it's funny that Barry labels the England arrogant about their team yet refers to Colombia and Brazil as no one.
Your point on how good teams are at a point in time is also very true.
It's funny because people use it to denigrate Southgate by saying he only beat the "worst Germany ever" in 2021 (which is wrong anyway as 2000 and 04 were far worse) but they never say he beat an excellent Denmark.....
...Premier League players who were resting on the sidelines injured for large stretches of the season performing with more energy, etc.
I'm beginning to wonder if Premier League exhaustion is a factor in how some of these games have fizzled out (plus Bellingham going the whole way in the Champions League)? Georgia and Austria cited as the breakout successes of the group stage having no Premier League players, the Premier League players who were resting on the sidelines injured for large stretches of the season, etc.
It's great we have a couple of days to navel gaze at the eternal English question of square pegs, round holes and self regarding expectations.
It's seemed fairly obvious from the off.
If you are an essentially conservative manager, playing an attacking 4, at least two of those 4 need to be able to run fast. As it stands, only one of them can. Saka. And he's not been in the best form. But he's fast.
Foden is fleet of foot on the ball and fast of thought, but he's not going to stretch a defence.
Kane is all about his brain and his execution. He'd not strike fear into most defenders based on his sprinting.
Bellingham is a wonderfully gifted attacking midfielder.
So one of them has to go in the name of balance and options.
Maybe, with hindsight, dropping Rashford and Stirling wasn't the best idea. Sure, both were pretty dud last season, but they know how to play for Southgate, they both know how to play with Kane. And they both offer(ed) defence stretching runs. If Southgate doesn't really trust Gordon or Eze to do a job, why take them?
Remember that well.
But also worth remembering Barry said we beat no one until the semi finals of the World Cup and we lost. No one.
The other day The Guardian lamented how few touches in the opposition box England have had so far. This apparently demonstrated England's lack of attacking threat.
At the top of the table they showed was France with 112.
At the bottom was England with 53, with Austria just above them with 58.
The same Austria that everyone is raving about.
Now, I don't think France are playing especially well either, so I'm not sure what the information tells us, but either it's a good metric or it isn't, you can't just use it as a stick to beat England with.
Of course England have been very poor, we can all see that, but there just seems to be a bit of a pile on at the minute, to grasp at anything to attack the team, even, or indeed especially, when it isn't logically consistent.
The S*n headline of (I think)
England
Algeria
Slovenia
Yanks
is definitely one of the things people think of when they accuse all England fans of being arrogant and entitled...
Oh, Barry. You opened the drawer; you can't just put the sock back in (certainly not after *that*).
Italy were knocked out of the group stage at Euro 2004 with 5 points. The points distribution was 5-5-5-0. Italy, Sweden and Denmark all beat Bulgaria and drew with each other.
My absolute top grip is referring to a side as easier or harder based on nothing but history. So in this tournament people will reflect that Netherlands are a good side, Romania are not. France are very good and Austria are not. The reality being that Austria are absolutely flying and there is a reason Romania topped the group,
Had this argument many a time but Southgate’s England played Columbia who topped their group, then Sweden who topped their group. But apparently that is easy. Like Sweden just drew lots and got through not current holders Germany who were in their group
More than De Bruyne looking like Tintin I thought Jose Fonte's Professor Calculus outfit was a fine tribute to the Belgian book.
Lot of people saying Southgate always gets lucky with draws compared to previous managers.
It's not purely luck though is it.... he wins groups and therefore is likelier to get an "easier" draw.
He's won the group in 3 of his 4 tournaments, Capello came 2nd in a group of USA, Algeria and Slovenia and Hodgson in a group of Wales, Russia and Slovakia to cite just two recent examples.
He's made his own luck to a degree. In addition to that, there aren't really any "easy" teams in tournaments these days and the big teams of yesteryear don't just steamroll through, last Euros France lost to Swiss and Holland to Czechia, at the WC Croatia eliminated Brazil and Morocco knocked out Portugal
Southgate has his issues but most people refuse to give him any credit for things he's done well.
Based on the last 50 years I think there's a good chance we'll look back on 2018 to 2022 as a golden period and hopefully realise how good we had it.
So.....a Georgia team that trailed Spain +Scotland in the qualifying groups, and who only appeared post that slightly strange nations league play-off set-up, ....are still rightly and proudly, still in the tourney as we get to the meatnof the thing. Yet mu much vaunted scottish team, who were supported so wonderfully by THEIR fans ( Eh, Ingurlund?) are now long home.
My admiration for the Georgian side last night knows no bounds...ability, work, COMMITMENT TO THE CAUSE, and no ' superstar' egos on show...Now, that's what I CALL a side worthy of following.
Well done Georgia...you have my complete admiration .
Oh and on the Ronaldo shirt-pull, my understanding of what the refereeing expert on ITV said was explaining why it wasn't given based on how the rules are interpreted, not that it was 'never a penalty, Clive', which is a very different thing.
On the whole 'how bad will you feel when England get knocked out by Slovakia?' question to Max, it is an interesting one. Losing to Italy in the final was obviously crushing, and playing well and losing late in the tournament (2018, 2022) is really disappointing, but there would be a bleak humour to this one, and it's not like we wouldn't have seen it coming...
Unpronounceables beat the unspeakables. Favourite game of the tournament so far.
Sign in or create your Guardian account to recommend a comment