Talk:Hulagu Khan

religion

I don't understand why are you reverting my edits. All the scholarly sources agree that Buddhism was the religion of Hulegu khan and Christianity was his wife's religion. You claimed it is disputed and several sources claim him to be christian? I need a source for that

Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 14:58, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

"I don't understand why you are reverting my edits." I think I've made it pretty clear that the reason for reverting your edits is because you do not have a consensus to add that specific content. Whenever an editor disagrees with other editors' changes or the edits seem biased or controversial, we resort to building a consensus (see: Wikipedia:Consensus).

Now, While I agree with you that most scholars identify Hulagu as a Buddhist, they also emphasize his complex religious background. Hulagu's mother and his wife were both Nestorian Christians, and no doubt they influenced Hulagu's religious affiliations. Historians who emphasize his Christian connections more strongly include Jean Richard, who, in "The Crusades: c. 1071-c. 1291," argues that Hulagu Khan's close association with Nestorian Christianity and his favorable treatment of Christian communities "position him as having strong Christian affiliations." Steven Runciman, in "A History of the Crusades: Volume 3, The Kingdom of Acre and the Later Crusades," suggests that Hulagu had significant Christian leanings, partly due to his wife and the Nestorian Christian influence in his court. In "The Syriac Chronicle," Bar Hebraeus also presents Hulagu Khan in a Christian light.

I believe you see my point here: Hulagu's religious affiliations were syncretic, influenced by Christianity, Buddhism, and Tengrism. Numerous historians also mention Hulagu as leaning more towards Tengrism. For example, in "The Mongol Conquests in World History," Timothy May mentions that Hulagu, like other members of the Mongol aristocracy, maintained traditional Tengrist practices and beliefs alongside his other religious influences. In "The Empire of the Steppes: A History of Central Asia," Grousset highlights that Hulagu, like other Mongol leaders, was influenced by Tengrist beliefs and practices.

Solution:

I have more sources to back my claims, but I think for now these are enough. A solution, I believe, is to create a separate section within the article titled maybe titled "Religion" and mention Hulagu's diverse religious roots and his syncretic beliefs. His Buddhist affiliation can be emphasized since many historians consider him a Buddhist. – Cyber.Eyes2005^Talk 15:37, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

With all due to respect, I agree i made a mistake by reverting your edits without reaching the consensus, I won't make the same mistake from now on and I am also really glad to know that you agree with my point regarding hulagu Khan being buddhist as described by most of the scholars. But for the complex religious backround, you surely shared some sources. Let us see them one by one.

"Historians who emphasize his Christian connections more strongly include Jean Richard, who, in "The Crusades: c. 1071-c. 1291," argues that Hulagu Khan's close association with Nestorian Christianity and his favorable treatment of Christian communities "position him as having strong Christian affiliations"

Here i nowhere see Hulagu Khan being referred as a "christian" or following Christianity, He was obviously influenced by it because of his wife, In a similar way how akbar displayed a significant amount of dharmic influence because of his wife Jodha, Same way how Kanishka patronized buddhism because of his influence but never was one.

"Steven Runciman, in "A History of the Crusades: Volume 3, The Kingdom of Acre and the Later Crusades," suggests that Hulagu had significant Christian leanings, partly due to his wife and the Nestorian Christian influence in his court"

Again, Here it is only talking about "influence" rather than Hulagu khan's belief. Hulagu khan had a significant amount of christian influence because of his wife, no one disagreed with that.

"In "The Empire of the Steppes: A History of Central Asia," Grousset highlights that Hulagu, like other Mongol leaders, was influenced by Tengrist beliefs and practices."

Here, Again it is only talking about the influence, Hulagu Khan indeed was influenced by tengrist beliefs because it was the original religion of the mongols. But irony is it, That the same source of yours calls hulagu khan a "Buddhist" In page 358:

Vartan the monk, who was in her confidence, says: "She hoped to see Christianity increase in luster, and its every advance is to be attributed to her.Hulägu, although himself a Buddhist, shared this sympathy, and nothing is more significant of this than the continuation of Vartan's account.

Absolutely none of your sources specifically calls hulagu khan a "tengrist" or a "christian" except for him having some influences from these religions, And literally one of your own cited and quoted source ended up calling hulagu khan a Buddhist, but here are more sources which specifically calls Hulagu Khan a "Buddhist":

1)-IN THE SEARCH FOR PHYSICAL TRACES OF BUDDHISM after the fourteenth-century fall of the Il-Khan Mongols in Iran, we find almost nothing with a concrete Buddhist signature, even though the Mongol's first five rulers were Buddhist. This lack of evidence is due to the conversion of the late Il-Khans to Islam and the consequent eradication or transformation of traces of Buddhism; the only concrete Buddhist remnant we have from this period is in the work of a well-known historian of the time, Rashīd al-Dīn Faḍlallāh Hamadānī (d. 1318), who recorded the life and doctrine of the Buddha. This historical writing, known as Jāmi’ al-Tawārīkh, is a magnificent work that will be highlighted and analyzed in the first part of this chapter."

Source- Buddhism during the mongol period in iran

-1

Clearly calls the first 5 emperors "Buddhist"

2)-Hildinger Erik in his book "warriors of the steppe" page 148 says:

They obeyed and were killed; the Mongols then entered the city and massacred those who had disobeyed. The dead from these slaughters is said to have numbered ninety thousand altogether. Hulegu was a Buddhist with two Nestorian Christian wives.

Source- Warriors of the steppe

3)- Historian Peter Jackson in his book "Mongols and the west 1221-1410" clearly states:

It is recorded however that he converted to Buddhism as he neared death against the will of Doquz Khatun.

Source- The Mongols and the west

4)- An essay by Sam Grupper has made an impressive case against the once-prevailing view by arguing for Hulegu's acceptance of a Buddhist identity.

Page 304

Also in the next page:

And in agreement with Grupper, we would say that he must have taken his Buddhism seriously enough to pass on that identity to the Ilkhans, his own descendents, for three more generations. With only a brief hiatus, the Ilkhans reigned as Buddhists into the first decade of the 14th century. Hulegu passed his Buddhism on to his son and successor Abaga, who passed it on to his son Arghun, who passed it on to his son Ghazan. These rulers continued their Buddhist identity under circumstances inimical enough that it must have meant a great deal to them.

Page 305.

Source: https://www.academia.edu/11020428

":I have more sources to back my claims, but I think for now these are enough. "

2 of your own cited sources call Hulagu Khan a Buddhist with some religious influence (I didn't cross check the other references because they aren't available online for free). Point to be noted here is they (your own sources) literally agree with hulagu khan being a buddhist. I can share way more sources but I stop here since it will be very time consuming to read them all.

"A solution, I believe, is to create a separate section within the article titled maybe titled "Religion" and mention Hulagu's diverse religious roots and his syncretic beliefs. His Buddhist affiliation can be emphasized since many historians consider him a Buddhist."

There is no diverse religious roots though, All historians mostly agree hulagu khan was a buddhist with some tengrist influence and christian influence because of his wife, His son was a buddhist and so were his great grandsons. Influences can't be regarded as a religious identity here, Regardless of the christian/tengrist influences, the religious identity of Hulegu khan and his successors remained buddhist until Ghazan converted to islam. So I suggest you to let "buddhism" stay in the infobox.

Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 20:17, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

First, I want this discussion to be organized so when archived it can easily be accessed and be "readable". I would greatly appreciate it if you could work on the formatting of your comments. Second, my first comment on the topic agreed with you that most scholars identify Hulegu as a Buddhist; no dispute in that. So, your cited sources regarding that are unnecessary and only taking the discussion in circles; I'll be ignoring all those.

Now, can the influences of other religions to the extent it becomes syncretism, be ignored? This is the same case with most Chinese dynasties; they were syncretic, and the same is true for Hulagu and many other Mongol rulers of these factions. You can't strictly call them Buddhists or Tengrist. Interestingly, two of your cited quotes state that Hulagu converted to Buddhism, which means he was of a different religious background before that. And you saying after all that, "There are no diverse religious roots," doesn’t make any sense. Since you agree that he had influences from other religions, you're contradicting your own statements. It is due to these significant influences from different religions that I don’t agree with simply adding Buddhism as his religion. And, I'll repeat my last paragraph again:

A solution, I believe, is to create a separate section within the article titled "Religion" and mention Hulagu's diverse religious roots and his syncretic beliefs. His Buddhist affiliation can be emphasized since many historians consider him a Buddhist.

Since he is considered a Buddhist by most historians, this can be mentioned in the created section. No problem in that. – Cyber.Eyes2005^Talk 22:21, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Another interesting point I noticed: your cited quote from historian Peter Jackson's book Mongols and the West 1221-1410 states that "It is recorded, however, that he converted to Buddhism as he neared death, against the will of Doquz Khatun." What were the religious beliefs he carried throughout his life? Since his conversion to Buddhism was against the will of Doquz Khatun, was it Nestorian Christianity? – Cyber.Eyes2005^Talk 22:30, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

I want our discussion to end as quickly as possible and not hang unresolved. I'll propose another solution: Buddhism can be added as the religious affiliation of Hulagu in the Infobox, but with a footnote stating something like, "His beliefs were also influenced by other religions like Tengrism and Nestorian Christianity." What is your opinion on that? – Cyber.Eyes2005^Talk 22:37, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

"if he converted to Buddhism later what was he before". I don't think so you read all my references did you?

"Recent translations of various Tibetan monks' letters and epistles to Hulegu confirms that he was a lifelong Buddhist, following the kagyu school of thought"

Page 306.

Source- https://www.academia.edu/11020428

He was a "lifelong" buddhist, He always maintained his buddhist identity and that is the identity he passed to his children and successors (page 304-305), Because of which the first 5 emperors of ilkhanate were Buddhists, But yes he "Officially" converted to Tibetan buddhism by 1260s.

To prove it, Read the statement, Even during his conquest of Baghdad (1258) he is referred as a "buddhist" conqueror:

"He led a force into Iran to defeat the Assassins at Alamut and then turned his men toward Baghdad. Although Hulagu was a Buddhist, his primary wife was Christian and he carried on his grandfather's policy of religious toleration. Therefore, his attack on Baghdad was intent on conquest, not religious persecution

Source- https://books.google.com/books/about/100_Decisive_Battles.html?id=nv73QlQs9ocC#v=onepage&q=Hulagu%20Buddhist&f=false

"Now, can the influences of other religions to the extent it becomes syncretism, be ignored?"

It can't be, mate, But religious influence is not equal to the religious identity, He patronized Christianity only because his wife was a Christian, Similar way how akbar patronized Hinduism and other dharmic religions because of his wife being one. He indeed had some tengrist influence but he never identified himself as a christian or a tengrist, But a buddhist. That is the identity he maintained throughout his life. This is the reason why I said:

Regardless of the christian/tengrist influences, the religious identity of Hulegu khan and his successors remained buddhist until Ghazan converted to islam.

Besides for that I agree with your another solution. Let us add buddhism on the infobox with some influences in the footnote. I am glad we came to a specific conclusion. Cheers. Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 03:26, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

We're still here looping around on the same topic. No need to repeat the same thing again and again. Also, here is the thing you're not getting: patronizing a religion does not equal being influenced by it. One can be a patron without being influenced by that specific thing. These are two different things. Hulagu was not only a patron of Christianity and Tengrism but also influenced by them. Since we have reached a consensus, the discussion is concluded. You can re-add your change; remember to add a footnote. – Cyber.Eyes2005^Talk 04:26, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Another thing I wanted to point out: Ghazan wasn't the first Ilkhanate emperor to convert to Islam. In fact, it was Tekuder, the third Ilkhanate emperor. – Cyber.Eyes2005^Talk 04:30, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

I also covered the influence part as in how being influenced by a certain religion doesn't really gives u that particular religious identity. Apart from that, During the reign of tekuder, the court religion remained buddhism. It is only after Ghazan when islam was called as a state religion replacing buddhism.

But yes, thank you Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 08:57, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

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Hello. I am not going to comment on whether he was a Buddhist (I have no knowledge on Mongolian history), but about the appropriate place to write so. I believe that if you decide to include the fact that he was a Buddhist, it should stay in the infobox or in a dedicated section, not in the introduction. The fact that he was (or not) a Buddhist does not seem defining enough to be included in the intro as a "presentation" of his character. We do not usually talk about people as "Name was a religion ruler/scientist/author etc" unless it matters a lot. He was a ruler and he was also a Buddhist/Christian/etc, but those two things seem to be unrelated, unless he spread Buddhism in the places he conquered. I may be wrong, so please tell me. Also, enwiki mentions it in the infobox, but not in the introduction (however we are not forced to follow enwiki). Thank you for reading my thoughts, ✩ Dream Indigo ✩ 09:23, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

He was notable because he was a ruler, not because he was a Buddhist ruler. That is what I mean, hope you understand. Happy editing! ✩ Dream Indigo ✩ 09:27, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

He indeed declared buddhism as the official religion in the places he ruled over and constructed several monasteries in it, But yes, You are right and i will remove it from the lead. Cheers Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 13:53, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

I agree. Hulegu Khan's primary notability comes from his role as a ruler. It is enough to have his religious affiliation mentioned in the infobox, since the article is a stub, rather than in the lead. – Cyber.Eyes2005^Talk 09:52, 28 June 2024 (UTC)