User talk:Scogdill

Welcome! Hello and Welcome to Wikiversity Scogdill! You can contact us with questions at the colloquium or me personally when you need help. Please remember to sign and date your finished comments when participating in discussions. The signature icon above the edit window makes it simple. All users are expected to abide by our Privacy, Civility, and the Terms of Use policies while at Wikiversity. To get started, you may Take a guided tour and learn to edit. Visit a (kind of) random project. Browse Wikiversity, or visit a portal corresponding to your educational level: pre-school, primary, secondary, tertiary, non-formal education. Find out about research activities on Wikiversity. Explore Wikiversity with the links to your left. Enable VisualEditor under Beta settings to make article editing easier. Read an introduction for teachers and find out how to write an educational resource for Wikiversity. Give feedback about your initial observations. Discuss Wikiversity issues or ask questions at the colloquium. Chat with other Wikiversitans on #wikiversity. You do not need to be an educator to edit. You only need to be bold to contribute and to experiment with the sandbox or your userpage. See you around Wikiversity! --mikeu talk 20:58, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

Project Idea

Hello, please ping me if you need any assistance. I've organized Public humanities as a portal for some of the student projects that various classes have worked on. We also have some bot operators who might be able to help with bulk importing of pages from other sites. --mikeu ^talk 20:58, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

@Mu301: Hi, thanks for reaching out! I have a little experience editing and writing for Wikipedia, so I figured this wouldn't be too hard, though I can tell I've forgotten some things.

I have a wiki on an Apple server in my office, but I'm retiring and because of some technical things want to get off that server and onto something more accessible (IT at my school has never really fixed my certificate so it looks safe to browsers). But also, I'm retiring, and this is my research project. It seems like it might be a reasonable Learning Project for Wikiversity, I think probably for other scholars of Victorian social events and periodicals, including grad students. My project is about social events in the Victorian age, mostly in London and mostly as reported on in newspapers and occasionally magazines. Who was there, what they wore, who sat next to whom, who was sleeping with whom, that kind of thing. In particular, I'm using this research to develop a clear understanding of the social networks of a few people, including Albert Edward, Prince of Wales, later King Edward VII of England.

So what I need to do is migrate my Apple Wiki pages, which maybe number around 500?? to Wikiversity, if this is a good site for me to continue my project. Just playing around, I tried recreating my homepage today, but I can't publish it. First because it had links to external sources, which I fixed. But now I can't tell why it won't let me publish, no explanation that I can see. Just "New User Blocked Edit." Except maybe new users shouldn't start by making pages??

So any kind of feedback you've got is totally welcome. --Scogdill (discuss • contribs) 22:57, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

Welcome! I've added you as a confirmed user. That should help bypass some of the edit filters. But, take it slow. Create a page with just a brief introduction and then add content after it is created. When large pages are created wholesale by new users, it looks like a copyright violation or solicitation for external websites.

As for importing 500 pages, that's certainly something that could be done. I'd like to see a bit more of what you have planned before committing to do the import. Please share more about this project. Thanks! -- Dave Braunschweig (discuss • contribs) 03:04, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

I did some quick research. This doesn't look to be as easy as we might like. The following site has commands that will likely be needed. https://krypted.com/mac-os-x/migrating-data-apple-wiki-server/ . -- Dave Braunschweig (discuss • contribs) 03:13, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

Dave, wow, thanks for this!

Honestly, I had expected to do the migration by hand, page by page. That means I will look at every page before it goes up, which is good for quality control anyhow. Slow, but that's all right. I have a little time before I lose the server in my office, maybe a couple of years, but I had a surge of energy once I found Wikiversity, to be honest. :)

I knew I didn't know enough to automate the migration, so I had sort of set that aside as a possibility. Would be great, but isn't necessary, even now, I think. I will look at the link you sent, though, thanks.

Fwiw, the wiki I've been building and want to make more public is here: https://socialvictorians.stcloudstate.edu/wiki/projects/vickypedia/Vickypedia.html

You'll have to tell your browser the site is safe, which it is. The problem with the certificate is that it's self-authenticated, which isn't cricket, and they're right to be suspicious of it. IT at my university must know how to do it right, since the school has lots and lots of webpages on several servers, but the research project of an individual faculty member isn't top priority for them. And they're busy, I do get that. And mostly I have been pretty self-sufficient, just couldn't do this one.

Thanks again, sharon --Scogdill (discuss • contribs) 03:21, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

Hm, I wrote an earlier reply, thanking you for confirming me as a user and saying a little about my project, but maybe I didn't save it. I think I need to improve my project description so you can see what I'm thinking about and say what you think.

I have been developing a classic website audit of the wiki on the Apple server so I can move things systematically and be sure to get everything. Once I get the home page revised with some explanatory stuff, I think I'll focus on a party I've been researching -- a fancy-dress (or costume) ball hosted by the Duke and Duchess of Devonshire in 1897, the year of Victoria's Diamond Jubilee. Nothing scholarly has been written about this ball except the work I've done. My list is the list of attendees, and most of my work in the last couple of years has been trying to identify the 700 or so people who attended based on newspaper accounts of the time. Many of my pages are about people, but they're not biographical pages like what Wikipedia has (one of which I have written). They're more info I need in order to confirm exactly who using that title was present at the party and what they wore.

The point of this research, other than just an addiction to this kind of detective work, tbh, is to get a clear picture of the social networks of a few people who were at the party, especially Albert Edward, Prince of Wales in 1897 and later Kind Edward VII of England. I'd like to graph the networks at the party. I'd like other people to contribute info about people they know from this time. I'd like others to be able to use this info to graph social networks and talk about how ideas and power moved through them.

Also, I have sundry web and wiki pages developed for my students over the years, but since I'm retiring, I was thinking they were less important. I might change my mind again, though given that my university is not going to be offering f2f classes, so I'll need resources for my students still this semester. The Victorian stuff for them would be associated with this project.

Thank you, again! sharon --Scogdill (discuss • contribs) 03:32, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

I think migrating page by page will work better. It would be possible to copy HTML content by bot and generate pages that way, but much of the formatting would be lost. The only thing I would caution you on is to make sure you have a backup copy of the full site in case your institution decides to eliminate it shortly after you retire.

What you describe sounds like a great example of a Wikiversity learning project, and a valuable open resource for people studying Victorian society in the future. Let us know how we can help once you complete your inventory. -- Dave Braunschweig (discuss • contribs) 20:19, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

Project Title

Now is probably a good time to select an overall title (landing page) for your project. Social Victorians seems good to me so far, but you might have better ideas. The intent would be that additional pages are then created as subpages of this project. For example, we would move 1897 Fancy Dress Ball to be a subpage of Social Victorians. What project title would be best for your efforts? -- Dave Braunschweig (discuss • contribs) 13:28, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

Well, this is a very interesting thought. I have called the larger project Social Victorians so long, I haven't thought about a title for ages.

I have Event Pages on several social events right now, mostly documenting logistics, weather, who was there and whatever was published about them at that event, that kind of thing. Some of these events are very complex and interlinking, involving prior events, sub-events, subsequent events, and related events.

I have several kinds of People Pages, which link to the events and vice versa, collecting info about them from all the events I have evidence they attended as well as genealogical stuff so I can be sure exactly which Viscount Whatever was actually the one who was there. That's a moving thing, of course, as a Viscount Whatever in 1880 might have died so that his son or another relative was Viscount Whatever in 1881. For people for whom no biography has been written, I end up with a lot of info about their lives from the newspapers, and I collect that info on their Person Page as well. Most People pages are actually of families, but occasionally, as with Lady Violet Greville or Miss Muriel Wilson, for example, very important socially and literally completely forgotten today, a Person Page collects that stuff and links to (and is linked to by) the Family Page.

Possibly eventually the most important People Page will be the ones for social networks, which I'm now calling Threads and Knots. Right now I'm thinking organizations like the Golden Dawn belong here.

I have Timeline pages, where I collect random info year by year on things until they get large enough to be moved to an Event Page. For years where I have a lot of info, there's one of these Timeline pages for each year, plus one for each decade that serves as a kind of overview, useful especially when the info is sparse.

Finally, there are a few pages about things from Victorian material and social history, objects like newspapers, bicycles, bunsen burners, typewriters, steel pen points, and so on.

This is really just thinking out loud, and I just now sort of talked myself into staying with Social Victorians. I will keep thinking about this, though.

Thanks very much for noticing about the 1897 Fancy-Dress Ball; I agree, it's a subpage and the space where a lot of other pages will be linked to from as well as a page a lot of other pages link to.

I had developed an eccentric but clear and efficient citation system for these old newspaper articles, but Wikipedia footnotes and reflist will work fine and I'll convert them. Also, I read the Help pages on categories and those Nav helps, but I haven't decided exactly how to make that work for me yet. Just haven't spent enough time on it yet.

Thanks again. I'm really experiencing these conversations as welcoming and helpful. :) sharon --Scogdill (discuss • contribs) 20:24, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

Sounds good. I've moved 1897 to a subpage of Social Victorians. I also created a redirect from Victorian society, which might be a more common search for those of us who don't know any better. Finally, I removed your contact information from the bottom of the article. If anyone wants to contact you, your username is in the page history, and your email is available through Email this user. -- Dave Braunschweig (discuss • contribs) 23:13, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

Thank you! Now that I see how it looks, I'm noticing how hierarchical my organizational scheme has been. This might make it odd, I will think about that. Another thing I noticed having seen how it works is that the Victorians would have called what we call high society "Society," so Victorian "Society" is exactly what it is in a way. :)

Thanks again, sharon --Scogdill (discuss • contribs) 18:23, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

humanism

i see you mention humanism on your about page.

how is digital human different than humanism in general and/or secular humanism?

just curious. thanks. cheers and limitless peace. Michael Ten (discuss • contribs) 20:09, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

Hi, Michael, sorry it took me so long to get back to you. Honestly, I wasn't sure how to answer it. "Digital humanities" names an academic field in universities, in one of the Humanities (Literature, Philosophy, History, languages, etc.) but explicitly making use of digital tools, and often creating them as well. Scogdill (discuss • contribs) 19:04, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

CC: By-NC-NS license from the National Portrait Gallery, London

@Mu301: Hi, Mike, I've been talking with the National Portrait Gallery in London about some images. Their license is very specific, so they are not going to be freely usable anywhere in the MediaWiki universe. I find no duplicate copies of these images on the web, except for a collection I've made in Pinterest, which would never meet the necessary criteria for use. I've read all the pages in Wikipedia, Wikimedia Commons, and here about uploading images, and I don't see any way around using images with their licensing restrictions.

I know the 10 things I have to provide to defend this use of non-free content, and I believe that I meet those criteria, especially because these are historical images, but I felt like I should alert you all to what I'm up to. Here are what strikes me as most problematic from the perspective of MediaWiki:

1. It's a lot: I'm looking to use more than 286 images. I have written the NPG, and here's what they say, "We have no objection to our low-resolution images being used on Wikipedia/media/Wikiversity for non-commercial purposes. As long as you make sure to credit the works © National Portrait Gallery, London."

The low-res thing is no problem, as is the credit they want. And really I don't mind doing the 10 things 286+ times, but I want to know before I do that much work if Wikiversity is going to let the images stay up.

Here is a page that shows something of what I'd like to do, in this case using images from Wikimedia Commons: [page showing images in use].

Thanks very much for any help you can suggest or provide, Sharon / Scogdill (discuss • contribs) 19:22, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

Mike isn't active much anymore, but I noticed your post. Please upload one low-resolution image from the National Portrait Gallery, tag it as Fair Use, include the licensing {{Information}} and any other information you feel is appropriate. We'll make sure we get that one labeled correctly and then you can follow that model for the other files. -- Dave Braunschweig (discuss • contribs) 19:59, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

Oh, Dave, thanks very much! and also thanks for noticing. I was looking through who had helped me before, and because of Public Humanities, I tried Mike first. You were next if that didn't work. :)

Thanks very much for this, I'll do what you ask next.

sharon / Scogdill (discuss • contribs) 20:07, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

See [1]. The only question I have is whether the NPG explicitly gave you CC-BY-NC-ND permission or whether they just provided the quote. If they provided the quote only, we can't put the CC license on it. It sounds to me like they did not give permission to anyone else to use their works, only Wikipedia / Wikiversity. That's why we would use Fair Use rather than a CC license. -- Dave Braunschweig (discuss • contribs) 00:36, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

Ok, for people wanting "Image licence and download for limited non-commercial use," to use "in non-commercial projects (e.g. online in scholarly and non-profit publications and websites, blogs, local society newsletters and family history)," they offer the Creative Commons licensing. Copying/pasting: "Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivs 3.0 Unported (CC BY-NC-ND 3.0)." So that's for everybody at this level of use. They charge for everything more.

She told me ok for Wikiversity, but she also said ok for Wikimedia Commons, so I'm guessing she doesn't actually know the requirements for free content.

Thanks, Dave, for this education.

Sharon / Scogdill (discuss • contribs) 01:20, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

I made a slight change in grammar to clarify the license and usage. See [2]. Because CC-BY-SA and CC-BY-NC don't mix, the use at Wikiversity is Fair Use rather than dependent upon the NC-ND license. However, referencing the license does allow others the option of reusing the images in other environments where appropriate. I think you can use this as a template for the other images and proceed. It meets Wikiversity requirements. -- Dave Braunschweig (discuss • contribs) 15:27, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

Once again, and I do say this to people when I talk about my experiences at Wikiversity, this is one of the most helpful and supportive environments I've ever seen as a teacher/scholar. In my life. And almost all of it has been you. Thank you so much for writing these tags for me. Sharon / Scogdill (discuss • contribs) 17:46, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

Be sure to also include the Licensing section for each file. Without the license, it appears on a report and gets deleted after seven days. See [3] for an example. Thanks! -- Dave Braunschweig (discuss • contribs) 17:54, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

Ok, thank you, had lost track of that, I think.

I've been wondering if I should do "no gallery" on these so they don't get used off these pages. Do you have any thoughts about that? I've been reading to try to see where it goes, and I don't see right now where in the information about the photograph it should go. I'd be grateful for any suggestions.

Thanks again for looking out for me, Sharon / Scogdill (discuss • contribs) 21:01, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

I don't think "no gallery" is necessary. They have given permission to use their images here. We're just tagging them as fair use to make clear that the images can't be copied and reused elsewhere. The images themselves could be tagged as CC-BY-NC-ND. But that's not compatible with any wiki page they would be displayed on, so fair use is the better approach. -- Dave Braunschweig (discuss • contribs) 00:46, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

Great, thank you very much, very helpful. s / Scogdill (discuss • contribs) 19:59, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

Files Missing Information

Thanks for uploading files to Wikiversity. All files must have source and license information to stay at Wikiversity. The following files are missing {{Information}} and/or Wikiversity:License tags, and will be deleted if the missing information is not added. See Wikiversity:Uploading files for more information.

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MaintenanceBot (discuss • contribs) 03:57, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Social Victorians/1897 Fancy Dress Ball

This was showing up as having a 'self-closed' tag.

I can't edit the page , because of en edit-filter that's mis-reading a good faith edit as matching a pattern used by a globally banned editor, which as I'm not globally blocked, I am puzzled about.

The self closed tag in question seems to be within a blockquote, and the self closed tag is being used to introduce a paragraph break within a blockquote, to work around some limitations due to various issue (already noted on phabricator).ShakespeareFan00 (discuss • contribs) 16:06, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for letting me know about this. i don't completely understand it, but I will get some help and then get back to you. Thanks again!Scogdill (discuss • contribs) 16:36, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

@ShakespeareFan00 There was an error in the abuse filter. Resolved.

@Scogdill It is better to avoid using <p> tags, either self closing <p /> or not. You should be able to just enter a blank line to separate paragraphs.

Dave Braunschweig (discuss • contribs) 17:18, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

Hi, Dave, thanks so much for resolving the abuse-filter problem.

And also for bringing us back to the paragraphing problem.

I had mentioned before that sometimes the blank line doesn't work to separate paragraphs; I think the problem occurs only in block quotes, but it's pretty common, at least on my pages. I don't see it unless I'm in the visual editor. In reading mode, there's no paragraph break, and unless you know it should be there, you don't notice anything. In the source editor, everything looks fine, and there's nothing i can see that would explain why it's not working. It's only when I'm in the visual editor can I see that in fact it knows there are two line breaks but it doesn't use them.

Perhaps I'm doing something odd or wrong. I wonder sometimes if the length of the blockquote might affect things, but I haven't really seen a pattern there I could describe yet. If the problem is <p />, then i can change to <br /> as I find them. Would that do it? I'm doing quotations and need the paragraph breaks to be accurate.

I will let you know the next time I find one.

Thanks again, Sharon Scogdill (discuss • contribs) 20:36, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

Or, i could also find the html paragraph breaks and convert those back. We should be able to recreate the problem right there? sharon Scogdill (discuss • contribs) 20:40, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

The trick to formatting with blockquote is to put it on its own line. See [4]. Using <br> is better than <p> if you need to do something that a blank line by itself won't. Avoid using either <p /> or <br />. The trailing / is the 'self-closed' error that is no longer part of the current HTML standard. Thanks! -- Dave Braunschweig (discuss • contribs) 02:36, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, Dave! I didn't know about the trailing /, but I'll go to work on fixing this. Also, I think I see now what you mean about putting it on its own line. The examples helped, thanks. Tbh, I thought I was putting them on their own line, and sometimes I notice that the html for blockquote got moved up. But I bet I was doing something unconsciously. I will check for this. Thanks again, as always. So helpful. Scogdill (discuss • contribs) 22:01, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

Hi, Dave, another question if you've got the time. I've been reading help pages on wiki markup, and it's been useful. What i can't figure out is how to search for trailing /s. I am going through the pages systematically right now, editing and improving. I can certainly look for the trailing / on each page, but this will take a long time. But is there a faster way?

There must be, right, because you found some?

sharon Scogdill (discuss • contribs) 17:18, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

It's not necessary to search. They show up on one of the Special:LintErrors reports. That's how ShakespeareFan00 found them. If there's something that needs to be corrected on a wide range of pages, I do have a bot that I can use to automate the search and update process. I don't think that's necessary here, but if you want me to go through and check for blockquote positioning or something similar, I could do that. -- Dave Braunschweig (discuss • contribs) 14:19, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

Hi, Dave, so I haven't figured out how to find the a LintErrors report that would show this problem on my pages, but I'm still digging around, working on that. I really appreciate the help you've been giving me and how much I'm learning. :)

I found a page that had a bunch of trailing slashes (inside <br />) and deleted them all, and just the <br> works for the formatting I'm going for in general, at least as well as it was working before. So that's satisfactory.

On that same page, I could see how some of the block quotes were not on their own line, and fixing that usually fixed the problem I was having. I did find two exceptions.

There should be two paragraphs inside the blockquote in the section on The Pictorial World on the Social Victorians/Newspapers page. The blockquote is on its own line, and i'm using Returns to make the paragraph break. Which usually works, but not this time.

There's a similar thing later on the same page. In the section London Society: A Monthly Magazine of Light and Amusing Literature for the Hours of Relaxation is a long blockquote that should be two paragraphs, right before "I know at present of three ladies in London, but not in what is now termed 'society, ....'" And assuming we can have more than one paragraph in a block quote, I just do not see what the problem could be. This is what I was attempting to solve with html.

Any thoughts or suggestions you might have would be very welcome.

Thanks again for your patience and forbearance, Sharon Scogdill (discuss • contribs) 20:36, 20 April 2022 (UTC)

Same problem, same solution. Put <blockquote> and </blockqoote> on separate lines. [5] -- Dave Braunschweig (discuss • contribs) 22:34, 20 April 2022 (UTC)

OH! D'oh, I get it now. thanks, s Scogdill (discuss • contribs) 16:52, 21 April 2022 (UTC)