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Newspapers.com made temporarily unavailable

I presume there's a trouble ticket on Phabricator out for this already if the TWL site was changed to remove the Newspapers.com button and replace it with "Temporarily unavailable"? Does anyone know the ticket number so we can track how things are going with it? Silver seren^C 20:05, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Related, if the decision is that there isn't a technical fix, but that we're reverting to individual accounts, I'd be willing to volunteer as an approver for this database, or whatever the term may be for behind the scenes of the Library. -- Zanimum (talk) 20:24, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I notice that one of the comments in the trouble ticket is that one cannot log in via Ancestry. I'm not sure how that is a problem. Typically one logs in through the Library interface, and then signs on to one's account to create clippings. But the other items on the trouble ticket are serious. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 23:12, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Figureofnine, where can one find this trouble ticket? Jweiss11 (talk) 18:50, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you go to the Wikilibrary page, it's right there next to "temporarily unavailable." https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T322916 Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 19:20, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Silver seren T322916 Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 15:45, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Figureofnine, I've linked the tracker for it at the top of this section. Unfortunately, it appears despite multiple people bringing their concerns to the ticket over the past few weeks, no one on whatever Phabricator group responsible for investigating such things has shown up or left any sort of comment. There appears to be no action being taken (at least none commented in the ticket) trying to fix this going on three weeks now. Which is concerning. Silver seren^C 21:24, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I imagine it may be due to summer vacations and so on. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 15:27, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Copying over a workaround from pburka:

Super janky workaround: if you have a free account, you can search, but you'll be prompted to pay (or start a free trial) to actually see the articles associated with the results. But, as far as I can tell, only search is broken in the WP Library proxy. So search using your free account, click on a search result, then edit the URL to replace "www.newspapers.com" with "www-newspapers-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org". e.g. this link is paywalled:
www.newspapers.com/image/124073618/?match=1&terms=%22gordon+simpson%22+%22le+mans%22
, but this one works:
www-newspapers-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/image/124073618/?match=1&terms=%22gordon+simpson%22+%22le+mans%22
. It's slow and clunky, but better than nothing. pburka (talk) 20:49, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Works for me so far. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 18:07, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I used that workaround in researching an article and was remiss in not posting here. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 12:15, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This workaround does not work for me. I can provide details but they appear to be the same as for the others. Coretheapple (talk) 16:23, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Correction to my last comment. It does work for me in that it allows me to see an article for citation pruposes. However I cannot create a clipping. Coretheapple (talk) 14:51, 27 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is there any method, or enwp page to watch, to be notified of when Newspapers is working again? The bug-tracking site is too opaque for me to navigate, else I would, there. — Fourthords | =Λ= | 21:13, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

At press time, a similar issue (re: proxy access) is affecting Wiley Online Library as well (as officially stated on their front page). --Slgrandson (How's my egg-throwing coleslaw?) 20:47, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Related, Ancestry is now also not working. I click the link in the library, the OCLC URL loads, but it says "log in" at the top. -- Zanimum (talk) 11:13, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I just had no problem with Ancestry, at least not logging on. It seems that the problems with these databases vary from computer to computer and account to account. Coretheapple (talk) 15:24, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Still unavailable as of 7/31?

I haven't had access to newspapers.com for 10 days and counting now ("There was an error while loading the form. Please contact customer support"). I can't tell from this talk page or WT:Newspapers.com what the latest is. Clearing cookies nor changing internet browsers fixes anything. What is going on and when is this going to be resolved??? SportsGuy789 (talk) 23:15, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Based on the Phabricator ticket, there haven't been any updates at all besides one "we're working on it" from a week ago. Which isn't all that comforting. Silver seren^C 23:33, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I can still access it through this link - https://www-newspapers-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/ - I can't log in, save or clip anything, but the search function still works for me, and when I find an article I need to use as a ref, I click on the Print/Download button (which still works for me) and I save the image as a .jpg, which allows me to read/research the article offline for the content I need to cite, and then I change the wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org URL to - https://www.newspapers.com/image/668904663/ - which I can then use in {{cite news}} with {{subscription required}}. It's a clunky workaround, but until they get it fixed, it works for me. Isaidnoway (talk) 15:56, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies for the ongoing issues here. I've just posted an update at T322916#10036209 on what the current situation and plan going forward is. Please let me know if you have any questions. Samwalton9 (WMF) (talk) 16:58, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks so much for keeping an eye on this, as well for keeping us updated! — Fourthords | =Λ= | 00:27, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nope, search function doesn't work for me using that link. Samwalton9 thanks for the update. Looks pretty grim. Coretheapple (talk) 21:45, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Have you tried using the method mentioned previously in this topic? That is, to search through newspapers.com (you need to log in through newspapers.com first, as it seems) and once you try to open a result and get the "start a 7 day free trial" window replace newspapers.com in your browser's address bar with www-newspapers-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org. AstonishingTunesAdmirer 連絡 22:11, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

worth a try! Coretheapple (talk) 16:20, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So, clipping worked previously for me, on July 24 to be exact. But I guess cookies expired or something, because now when I tried helping @Cunard over at WP:RX it no longer worked. I've found a solution but it's a little bit technical: once you log in through newspapers.com, you need to make sure the TWL proxy tab has cookies from newspapers.com. On Firefox, you can access them by pressing Ctrl+Shift+I → Storage → Cookies and then clicking the plus sign button to add a new one; on Chrome, it's Ctrl+Shift+I → Application → Cookies and double clicking the table to add a new one. Not sure yet which ones are required, but after I copied ncom-session, ncom-subscription, user_data and user_token clipping through the TWL proxy worked again. Keep in mind that you shouldn't share values of these cookies as that will allow others to use your newspapers.com account (probably not that big of an issue if it's a free account but still). AstonishingTunesAdmirer 連絡 10:58, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Copying the cookies worked for me so that I could log in to newspapers.com on www-newspapers-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org. Thank you so much for sharing this, @AstonishingTunesAdmirer! Pinging @SL93 so you know about this. Cunard (talk) 11:48, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Worked for me too. Thanks :) PARAKANYAA (talk) 12:15, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'll give that a try. Regarding your previous suggestion---I will try that too. Coretheapple (talk) 16:19, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I was doing some genealogical research through some old Missouri newspapers and found access here. --Kansas Bear (talk) 16:24, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Might be because I'm using a laptop, but Ctrl+Shift+I brings up Newspapers.com's info panel on the righthand side of the screen (which opens when pressing Ctrl+I). For anyone else experiencing this, you can just right-click to bring up Inspect/Inspect Element. From there you can access the Storage/Application and Cookies tabs. Thank you @AstonishingTunesAdmirer! —Matthew / (talk) 03:45, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

AstonishingTunesAdmirer, I'm trying to follow your instructions above. I'm using Chrome. I can view the cookies on each website via Ctrl+Shift+I, etc, but I can't figure out how copy cookies from one website to another. I need to copy four cookies (ncom-session, ncom-subscription, user_data and user_token) from newspapers.com to www-newspapers-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org, correct? Do I just copy each cookie value? I'm not seeing how to double click the table to add cookies. Thanks, Jweiss11 (talk) 05:26, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, you need to copy the 4 cookies you listed from newspapers.com to www-newspapers-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org. Initially, www-newspapers-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org doesn't have some of these cookies, so you need to create them yourself. On Chrome, you need to double click in there to create a cookie and then enter its name (on Firefox, you need to click the plus button in top right corner). Once you create a cookie, you need to copy its value from newspapers.com, which is done by double clicking on it in Value column → Ctrl+C → double click the same cookie in Value column over at www-newspapers-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org tab → Ctrl+V (for whatever reason Chrome won't let me paste via context menu, so need to use hotkeys). AstonishingTunesAdmirer 連絡 09:55, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@AstonishingTunesAdmirer, many thanks for posting about this. I'd note though that the only one I needed to copy was user_token as the other 3 existed already under the proxy url's cookies (and user_token was the only one of those 4 that showed under my newspapers.com cookie list). It actually wasn't that tedious a task but I do hope a proper resolution is forthcoming (i.e. back the old direct account approach). Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 18:18, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, second time I did it I only copied user_data and user_token and it worked, so you are probably right, but I am not sure if it checks for the other ones later on. It is a little bit tedious because it logged me out after a couple of days, but it's better than nothing while we wait for a proper fix (although the announcement over at Phabricator doesn't sound too promising). AstonishingTunesAdmirer 連絡 18:36, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

AstonishingTunesAdmirer, thanks for all your help on this. What I was missing before was scrolling to the bottom of the table of cookies at oclc.org and then double clicking on the blank row at the bottom to add more data. I copied over just user_data and user_token from newspapers.com and it worked! Jweiss11 (talk) 23:25, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@AstonishingTunesAdmirer thank you for the cookie fix, very much appreciated. I did find I only needed to copy user_token. Kind regards, Goldsztajn (talk) 23:22, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

When is this going to be fixed??? BeanieFan11 (talk) 20:32, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@BeanieFan11 We're as frustrated as you and would love to see this resolved soon. Unfortunately this requires input and collaboration from Newspapers.com, and this is taking time. Samwalton9 (WMF) (talk) 09:14, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I mean, we're in the fourth month now. Is there any idea of the timeframe when it could be fixed? BeanieFan11 (talk) 20:32, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Access restored

@Silver seren, Zanimum, Figureofnine, Jweiss11, Firefangledfeathers, Coretheapple, Fourthords, Slgrandson, SportsGuy789, Isaidnoway, AstonishingTunesAdmirer, Cunard, PARAKANYAA, Kansas Bear, MatthewHoobin, Bungle, Goldsztajn, and BeanieFan11:

Please see the announcement below :) Samwalton9 (WMF) (talk) 16:07, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Access to BNA

The subscription account I originally had expired earlier this year and then the library option became unavailable with no accounts available. I have since observed that the BNA may have been added to the library bundle via the oclc proxy based on info here but I cannot work out how to actually access this? If I type the url in manually it says unauthorised and I can't see any other previous discussions. Is BNA now unavailable again? Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 08:18, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Samwalton9 (WMF): are you able to shed any light here? Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:07, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Bungle Hi, sorry for the delay in responding - I was out at Wikimania last week. Unfortunately I think BNA is going to be a non-starter for us at the moment. We tried the voucher code route but, per previous communication we sent out, some users were being charged money and this risk was unavoidable. We tried proxy but, per my note here, these manual proxy configurations have turned out to be fragile, complicated, and very time consuming. As such I don't think we're going to be able to proceed with BNA. We'll put out some communication soon to confirm. Samwalton9 (WMF) (talk) 10:16, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the response. That's a real shame, as for the short time it was available it proved to be invaluable in citing some British-specific content which isn't available on the more international newspaper archives sites. Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:03, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's a pity indeed – what other way is there to find out, say, this? My access is about to expire – is there any news regarding BNA? Mapple (talk) 20:47, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

McFarland

It's been a bit since I've requested a book through McFarland. I remember that in the past, you requested access to a specific book (I think you could for one or two a year), and if it was approved, then you got emailed access to a copy. (I appear to have last done this in March 2022). I see the [extend] button on McFarland along with the Go to Site option, but clicking on the extend button doesn't seem to do anything. Could someone please remind me how this works? Hog Farm _Talk 00:29, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As in how do you request something? Go here. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:52, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I requested a book recently, it did take some time (7-10 days?), but it was worth the wait. All the best: Rich Farmbrough 22:27, 21 September 2024 (UTC).[reply]

Failure to authenticate

I've suddenly hit this issue in Chrome (works on Firefox):

Notice We are unable to validate your login credentials. Please contact your institution for assistance. Please note, Referring URL authentication may have been prevented by antivirus or privacy control software. [Authentication Error Code 103]

I've only seen it today, and AFAIK there's no change my end. Pretty sure it was working yesterday, if not the day before. Any ideas?

All the best: Rich Farmbrough 22:36, 21 September 2024 (UTC).[reply]

@Rich Farmbrough I'm not seeing any issues on my end - this is usually caused by a privacy extension or browser configuration which blocks data for privacy purposes. Is it still happening today? Samwalton9 (WMF) (talk) 10:30, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's fine today. Again no change my end. All the best: Rich Farmbrough 03:19, 26 September 2024 (UTC).[reply]

Newspapers.com access is being restored!

TL;DR: To regain access to Newspapers.com please go to https://wikipedialibrary.wmflabs.org/partners/26/ and click Apply. Access requests will be processed and sent to Newspapers.com over the coming weeks.

Newspapers.com have agreed to move back to our old method of granting access, whereby users must first register at Newspapers.com, then apply via The Wikipedia Library, and then accounts are upgraded to a subscribing one by Newspapers.com. We have updated Newspapers.com to accept applications in the library, so you can apply now! This change is unfortunately mutually exclusive with the limited proxy-based access working, so any of the technical workarounds that have been discussed here should no longer work, along with any proxy-based access to Newspapers.com. I hope you agree that this brief bump will be worth it in the long run. As a reminder, this change means that you will need to renew your access on a yearly basis. If you have an email configured in The Wikipedia Library you should receive an email a few weeks before this expiry to remind you to submit an extension request, but brief yearly loss of access may be a side effect of this access method. The good news is that this access method means that you shouldn't encounter any technical problems besides normal operational problems on Newspapers.com's end, which should be few and resolved quickly - otherwise the website should work just as if you were a normal customer.

We are planning to directly notify all users who have used Newspapers.com via the proxy over the past year separately to this announcement.

Thanks may be directed towards @VSj (WMF), who has been working tirelessly to find a way forward with Newspapers.com :) Samwalton9 (WMF) (talk) 16:03, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

O frabjous day! Thank you. Bummer about the wider access, but reliable probably beats abundant. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 16:09, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Awesome! Thanks. PARAKANYAA (talk) 16:14, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is greatly appreciated and wonderful news! Lack of Newspaper.com access just completely crippled me and I stopped contributing some weeks ago. Well, that wasn't the only reason but it was a primary reason. I hope my lack of recent contribs aren't held against me! Coretheapple (talk) 16:26, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent news! I have persevered with the technical workaround over the past few weeks (months..?) and while it's been extremely tedious, I did trust that a better (original) solution was being explored. I have no issue reapplying every year, even if usage has to be assessed to justify. Now, if BNA could also be readded that'd be doubly-excellent, but for now i'd settle for a stable newspapers.com access setup :) Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 16:54, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Already applied! --Slgrandson (How's my egg-throwing coleslaw?) 18:18, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your efforts! I've submitted my appication. Et exspecto resurrectionem BNA... :-) Mapple (talk) 20:30, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Chapeau! Regards, Goldsztajn (talk) 20:51, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the ping notifying me of this announcement. This is fabulous news and I appreciate all the hard work that has gone into making sure we still have access to this valuable asset in the library. Isaidnoway (talk) 21:45, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wiley issues

For some time yet, the Wiley access does not seem to work properly. If you try to access the URL https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1155/2015/398796 https://wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/login?auth=production&url=https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/ it just redirects to https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/ and https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1155/2015/398796 throws a redirect error. Only after a few reload attempts does it work. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:53, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Jo-Jo Eumerus Sorry to hear about this issue. I can't reproduce the redirect error, but do see the redirection happening - this might be because it's an open access title and therefore doesn't require proxy-based access. Does this still happen when trying to open closed-access sources? Samwalton9 (WMF) (talk) 10:25, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. https://onlinelibrary-wiley-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/doi/epdf/10.1002/asna.201311902 throws a redirect error as does https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/asna.201311902 unfortunately I can't filter the various broken URLs by access status. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 11:08, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Jo-Jo Eumerus It seems like the redirection is intentional - Wiley seems to have their website set up so that the proxy just authenticates you, and then you get a cookie or something which follows you out of the proxy, so you can browse the website without needing to have a proxied URL anymore. I can't reproduce the redirect error, unfortunately. What is the specific error message you're seeing? Samwalton9 (WMF) (talk) 14:46, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The "websites redirects the request in a manner that means it won't ever be complete" error, which I guess is a circular redirect. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:09, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

FWIW, https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdfdirect/10.1029/2023JB028371 is open source, but at first it shows a "the page isn't redirecting properly" error, then https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/action/oidcCallback?idpCode=connect&error=login_required&error_description=Login+required&state=Dps2IO0LOrpSUAYYguc7KtNDqa48N0uOkiR8QSifxiQQyK3B4L0%2FehVWERqz25eAZMEVPYSEia%2BEFCWBOY%2FSK9zecolralF6tMAxsNoH1kazY2OCnGwQIFkQPBckn%2FM9kJxQBf9Rym%2F0WyXUkx972jrKQRMaZ4WZh3AjlZTGBJGb2gBLN2c%2Fv5eIEpHON8sKhMkygjQi3F2wiOg%2BZHkOwHaaS8XQqytF0lNkE3kGw%2Fe%2Fc8g6t7To%2BW%2F%2FNpUqy65s%2BJ5GOQKlzugqQTlJFCVEecVz15%2BQUQpSlcnbeyzsgxBxHQiDSmAG7WnYKk2egCfX and only on third try https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdfdirect/10.1029/2023JB028371 shows up. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:00, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Jo-Jo Eumerus Do you have any extensions or browser configurations that would block or restrict cookies? Samwalton9 (WMF) (talk) 11:31, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Redirector and Snap Links are the only ones. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 13:57, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Jo-Jo Eumerus Have you tried disabling Redirector and seeing if you still get the same issue? Samwalton9 (WMF) (talk) 15:08, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not yet. It wouldn't solve the problem, anyway; I tend to access sources via Google Scholar and if I need to manually alter the URL then that's even worse. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 15:30, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Jo-Jo Eumerus Are you using the TWL Google Scholar integration, or using Redirector to proxy links from Scholar results? If the latter, I wonder if what's happening is you're getting redirected from no-proxy, to proxy, to no-proxy, and Firefox gets confused. Samwalton9 (WMF) (talk) 15:47, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The latter~~, but I notice from this and this that the integration has the exact same issue.~~ Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:07, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Newspapers.com renewed access not working?

Per what Samwalton9 (WMF) stated above, I requested renewed access to Newspapers.com through the TWL Applications system. I was just granted it yesterday, but in trying to use it right now, it says "Upgrade to a Publisher Extra Subscription to view this page". Which, if I remember, was an issue we were having with the old system where it wasn't considering us to have an actual account. I notice the "Go to site" link through the TWL isn't taking me to the version where it says "Welcome to Wikimedia Foundation" at the top.

So this is taking me to the regular Newspapers.com and not the https://www-newspapers-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/ version. But when I manually go to that one, it doesn't show me as logged in to my account and I can't clip without that. But when I try to log in through that version, it causes an error and won't log me in. I suppose I should also ping VSj (WMF). Silver seren^C 01:27, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, good news. The proxy duping method we've been using this whole time still works. So I can get access to clip things that way. But, Samwalton9, didn't you say it would stop working after getting access through this old system? Silver seren^C 01:29, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The email I received said that my application has been approved (on TWL side), but it'll take a week or two to actually get access (on newspapers.com side). When I go to https://wikipedialibrary.wmflabs.org/users/ and click "My applications", it says "Sent to partner". AstonishingTunesAdmirer 連絡 01:52, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, that must be why. Alright. Looks like I can still use the proxy duping method in the meantime. Silver seren^C 02:49, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

But ... newspapers.com does not appear in the list of available databases. Am I missing something? --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 01:42, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Have you checked the "Available Collections" tab? AstonishingTunesAdmirer 連絡 02:08, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I believe that some mechanism will be required to gain access to the database, similar to what was previously mandated. Once granted, all problems should disappear. Coretheapple (talk) 13:53, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]