Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lucy Hannah (4th nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to List of supercentenarians from the United States. Redirecting per WP:ATD. The history is still there, so people can still merge material if they want on their own. -- RoySmith (talk) 01:22, 1 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Lucy Hannah

[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

There is no notability guideline or policy that says “the oldest X is notable”. The sourcing for this article is a mere two extremely brief book mentions and a GRG list entry, and fails WP:GNG because she lacks WP:SIGCOV proving notability. The only other sources I could find on her WP:BEFORE are WP:ROUTINE brief mentions referencing her age in articles about other people. Even if these sources meant she was somehow notable, then WP:NOPAGE and WP:BIO1E apply as the article says nothing about her except her life dates, towns born/died in, claimed records, and she was a black American woman. Her presence on three separate lists is enough, as this article is never going to expand beyond a WP:PERMASTUB. Newshunter12 (talk) 01:08, 25 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Delete nom hit the main points of why the person should be listed not have a seperate pointless page. Legacypac (talk) 01:19, 25 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. Newshunter12 (talk) 01:56, 25 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. Newshunter12 (talk) 01:56, 25 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Michigan-related deletion discussions. Newshunter12 (talk) 01:56, 25 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Alabama-related deletion discussions. Thsmi002 (talk) 02:12, 25 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Nominator has not done WP:BEFORE. Passes WP:BIO. AlessandroTiandelli333 (talk) 12:21, 25 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Argument by assertion is hardly convincing. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 15:34, 25 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
This !vote by @AlessandroTiandelli333 fails to explain how they believe that this article meets any criterion of WP:BIO. Simply namechecking a policy is not a rationale, and AlessandroTiandelli333 does not identify any criterion of WP:BIO which they belive applies here, let alone explain why they believe that criterion applies. I hope that the closer will apply WP:NOTVOTE: it is "not the vote" that matters, but the reasoning behind the !vote that is important and a "vote" that doesn't seem to be based on a reasonable rationale may be completely ignored or receive little consideration. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 11:08, 27 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Delete as yet another recounting of random statistics with no actual significance. The nomination sums up the argument well, I won't repeat it. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 15:34, 25 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Delete unlike many other GRG-based bios, this doesn't even have references to newspaper articles about this person, and Gerontology Wikia is skeptical of her birthdate. power~enwiki (π, ν) 18:34, 25 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Delete – The article is only composed of stats about her lifespan and comparison to other oldest people. We have tables to record this, where readers can sort and compare at will. Strictly nothing about the person, fails GNG. — JFG ^talk 03:05, 26 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Merge/redirect to List of supercentenarians from the United States#List of people in lieu of deletion. Here is basic biographical coverage about her (closely paraphrasing from the sources I present below):
1. Lucy Hannah was born Lucy Terrell on 16 July 1875 in Linden, Alabama.
2. Hannah's parents were freed slaves.
3. Hannah was "well acquainted with poverty".
4. Hannah moved to Detroit to evade the racial prejudice of the South.
5. She married John Hannah in 1901.
6. She had eight children.
7. Her mother died at age 99 and two of Hannah's sisters died at or after age 100.
8. She died March 21, 1993, in Detroit at the age of 117 years, 248 days.
9. She outlived all but two of her children.
10. Hannah received little to no media coverage about her longevity during her lifetime, possibly because she predeceased Jeanne Calment, who was older than she.
11. There is no published picture of Lucy Hannah.
12. She is the fourth longest lived person.
13. She is the second longest lived American.
14. She is the longest lived African-American.
It is possible to make a weak case for Lucy Hannah passing Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline. The coverage of her is very thin though. Even researcher Robert Young writes, "Due to a lack of detailed information, this case will not be examined closely in this chapter."
The nominator mentioned WP:NOPAGE, a shortcut for Wikipedia:Notability#Whether to create standalone pages. I think that owing to the scant biographical coverage of the subject, it is better to merge the article to List of supercentenarians from the United States#List of people instead of keeping it as a standalone article.
Here are sources about the subject that verify the list of facts I have presented above:
1. Withington, John (2017). Secrets of the Centenarians: What is it Like to Live for a Century and Which of Us Will Survive to Find Out?. London: Reaktion Books. pp. 68, 98. ISBN 978-1-78023-818-0. Retrieved 2018-10-26.
  The book notes on page 68:
  For a long time, the United States had more centenarians than any other country, so it is no great surprise that the third-oldest human being ever to have lived (and the oldest African American of all) was Lucy Hannah, born Lucy Terrell on 16 July 1875 in Linden, Alabama. Her parents had been slaves, and Lucy herself moved north to Detroit to escape the racial prejudice of the South. She got married in 1901 and had eight children, only two of whom survived her. Hannah died on 21 March 1993 at the age of 117 years, 248 days. She too is said to have had long-lived relatives, with her mother living to 99 and two sisters reaching 100.
  The book notes on page 98:
  Only Jeanne Calment and Alice Herz-Sommer came from notably prosperous backgrounds, and Herz-Sommer lost everything when the Nazis took power, while Lucy Hannah, Albert Marshall, Octavio Orduno and Hetty Bower were well acquainted with poverty, and ...
2. Ennart, Henrik (2013). Åldrandets gåta: Vetenskapen som förlänger ditt liv (in Swedish). Stockholm: Ordfront. p. 114. ISBN 978-91-7441-406-6. Retrieved 2018-10-26.
  The book notes:
  
  Lucy Hannah som blev nästan 118 år var dotter till frigivna slavar och levde sina sista år på ett äldreboende i Detroit. Det var först flera år efter hennes död 1993 som hennes höga ålder blev känd och kunde bekräftas.
  Hon uppmärksammades aldrig av medier under sin livstid och än i dag finns det inte en enda bild publicerad som visar hur hon såg ut.
  Ett skäl kan ha varit att hon var samtida och något yngre än Jeanne Calment som fick allt strålkastarljus riktat mot sig. Åren efter sin död var Lucy Hannah ändå den äldsta människa som någonsin dött, men då var alltså den lite äldre Calment fortfarande i livet.
  From Google Translate:
  Lucy Hannah, who became nearly 118 years old, was the daughter of released slaves and lived last year in an elderly Detroit resident. It was only several years after her death in 1993 as her high age became known and could be confirmed. She was never aware of the media during her lifetime and yet today there is not a single picture published showing how she looked. One reason may have been that she was contemporary and slightly younger than Jeanne Calment who got all the headlight lights directed towards him. The year after his death, Lucy Hannah was still the oldest person ever died, but then the little older Calment was still alive.
3. Harris, Timothy (2009). Living to 100 and Beyond. Winsted, Connecticut: ACTEX Publications. p. 85. ISBN 978-1-56698-699-1. Retrieved 2018-10-26.
  The book notes:
  
  Lucy Hannah
  
  Ms. Hannah, another American, is the fourth longest living person, the second longest living American and the longest lived African American. She lived to the age of 117.
4. Young, Robert (2010). "Age 115 or more in the United States: Fact or fiction?" (PDF). Springer-Verlag Berlin Heidelberg GmbH. doi:10.1007/978-3-642-11520-2_15. Archived from the original (PDF) on 2018-10-26. Retrieved 2018-10-26 – via Max Planck Institute for Demographic Research. {{cite journal}}: Cite journal requires |journal= (help)
  The source notes:
  
  With the exception of one case, Lucy Hannah. Lucy Hannah: Aged 117 or 118? (July 16, 1875-March 21 1993) The Lucy Hannah case is different than most in that her claim to age 118 did not gather much attention (if any) while she was living. The first mention of this case in a national listing was in the 1999 SSDI listings. The claim to age 118 would have made Lucy the world’s oldest person, if validated. But for reasons unknown, this case never made it into the news.. However, in September 2003, the SSA study reportedly validated the age of Lucy Hannah to be one year younger than claimed, or 117. This would make her the third-oldest validated person after Calment and Knauss but never the world’s oldest person, as Calment was a few months older at the time. Due to a lack of detailed information, this case will not be examined closely in this chapter.
5. Sawe, Benjamin Elisha (2017-04-25). "Oldest People Ever Confirmed To Live". WorldAtlas. Archived from the original on 2018-10-26. Retrieved 2018-10-26.
  The article notes:
  
  Lucy Hannah
  
  Born on July 16th, 1875, Lucy is the second American supercentenarian after Sarah Knauss and the third world’s oldest person. She is also the first African-American to reach 117 years. In 1901, she got married to John Hannah and gave birth to eight children. It is also believed that longevity was present in her family since her mother lived for 99 years while her two sisters lived to be 100 years. Lucy was also born the same year as Jeanne Calment (the 1st oldest person to live). She died in March 1993 at the age of 117 years and 248 days.
Cunard (talk) 08:16, 26 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Most of the points you make about her are pure longevity fanfluff (oldest this, had old relatives, was poor). Your first source got her year of death wrong so it does not seem reliable and all the sources you listed are mere very brief mentions regurgitating the same scant information. There is nothing of substance to merge or redirect about Lucy Hannah. Furthermore, while the 110 club is not considered a reliable source since it is a forum, I think it is worthwhile to mention that the co-author of one of the cited books, the head of the GRG (another source used in the article), and an affiliate of GWR (the third source in the article) Robert Young, publicly claimed this year on that website using his official account that Lucy Hannah actually died in her 90's, not at 117. If true, this would explain the complete lack of contemporaneous media coverage of Hannah's supposed age records and why so little is known about her in general. Newshunter12 (talk) 22:27, 26 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The first source is a reliable source. It did not get the year of death wrong. I make a typo when I typed it here. I have corrected the year. There is enough biographical information that is not "pure longevity fanfluff" to support a merge:
1. Lucy Hannah was born Lucy Terrell on 16 July 1875 in Linden, Alabama.
2. Hannah's parents were freed slaves.
3. Hannah was "well acquainted with poverty".
4. Hannah moved to Detroit to evade the racial prejudice of the South.
5. She married John Hannah in 1901.
6. She had eight children.
7. She died March 21, 1993, in Detroit at the age of 117 years, 248 days.
The reliable sources (including the most recent source, the 2017 Reaktion Books-published book) I have found all say she died at 117 years old. I could not find any reliable sources that say "Lucy Hannah actually died in her 90's, not at 117". Robert Young wrote in a 2010 Springer-Verlag Berlin Heidelberg GmbH-published book, "the SSA (Social Security Administration) study reportedly validated the age of Lucy Hannah to be one year younger than claimed, or 117". If and when Robert Young or anyone else publishes in a reliable source any new research refuting the Social Security Administration study's conclusions, that can be considered.
I consider List of supercentenarians from the United States#List of people a reasonable merge target for Lucy Hannah, whom reliable sources call a supercentenarian from the United States.
Cunard (talk) 04:19, 27 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hannah clearly fails WP:GNG and so doesn't merit an article or mini-bio after a merge regardless of the little bit that can be dredged up about her in various brief mentions. Newshunter12 (talk) 07:10, 27 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Pinging Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lucy Hannah participants who have been active in the last year and have not participated in this discussion: BrownHairedGirl (talk · contribs), Canadian Paul (talk · contribs), Shunpiker (talk · contribs), Edison (talk · contribs), and Mandsford (talk · contribs).
Pinging Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lucy Hannah (2nd nomination) participants: CommanderLinx (talk · contribs), Ollie231213 (talk · contribs), Ayuta Tonomura (talk · contribs), Longevitydude (talk · contribs), 930310 (talk · contribs), and DerbyCountyinNZ (talk · contribs).
Pinging Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lucy Hannah (3rd nomination) participants: EEng (talk · contribs), BabbaQ (talk · contribs), and GuzzyG (talk · contribs).
Pinging Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2016 February 5#Lucy Hannah participants: Hallward's Ghost (talk · contribs), S Marshall (talk · contribs), and SmokeyJoe (talk · contribs).
Cunard (talk) 04:19, 27 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Pinged. As per my position there, there is no basis to delete per notability if the possibility of a merge target is not excluded. It has not been. Keep due to BEFORE failure. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:55, 27 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

There is nothing wrong with deleting non-notable supercentenarian articles (it's a very well established practice) and Hannah is already on three different lists; besides, there is nothing to merge from this "article" that isn't already part of her list entries. Please tell us what would be gained from a merge? Newshunter12 (talk) 07:27, 27 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Delete/merge per WP:NOPAGE. It's always WP:NOPAGE. Always. E Eng 04:29, 27 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Delete/Redirect/Merge Per nom, EEng, etc, etc. WP:NOPAGE. Insufficient encyclopedic content to justify a stand-alone article. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 06:17, 27 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
(pinged)Delete/Redirect/Merge. It's nearly 11 years since I nominated this article for AFD back in December 2007, and it still fails the basic WP:GNG criterion of significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. There is no significant coverage anywhere, not even in the spammy POV-pushing output of the flaky Gerontology Research Group.

Nor does this article pass any of the three criteria WP:ANYBIO. All we have is a factoid: oldest ever Africa-American woman.

As the nominator says there is no notability guideline or policy that says “the oldest X is notable”, but that has been the basis of most of the keep votes in previous discussions.

Personally, I think it's a pity that nobody has taken the trouble to research and publish a longer piece about her, but we cannot wish sources into existence. So we are left with WP:NOPAGE: the factoid here does not need a standalone page, and we already have suitable lists to use as a merge target. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:59, 27 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Fails to satisfy the reliable independant source criteria and thus fails WP:GNG and also fails to pass any of the three criteria WP:ANYBIO and the content seems to beating around the bush with no relevant personal authentic data.Vinodbasker (talk) 04:21, 28 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Per the arguments presented by Brown Haired Girl. The arguments I made 11 years ago also still apply. Notability is lacking. The only documentary evidence is from the1920 census where there is a “Sytha L. Hannah” married to John Hannah. Where is she in the censuses of 1880 and 1900 (the 1890 census was accidentally burned) as Lucy Hannah and in 1910, 1930 and 1940 as Lucy Timmons after her marriage to Timmons? Edison (talk) 01:07, 30 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.