Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Chaoxianzu

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus‎. I'm closing this discussion as No consensus because I doubt we will get much more clarity with further relistings. There are editors who want to straight out Keep this article but others who want a Split or Merge. Those two options can be dealt with as editorial decisions with the article and discussions on the article talk page and do not need to occur in the forum of AFD. I encourage you all to pursue shaping this into the article you think is appropriate for the project. But there is enough different opinions and I think initiating a discussion first is the least jarring way for this process to move forward. Good luck. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 23:24, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Chaoxianzu

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Bad WP:POVFORK of Koreans in China.

The topic of this article (ethnic Koreans with Chinese nationality) has been the primary topic of the article Koreans in China since 2006 (initial version, October 2023 version). In October, however, User:Strategicasian inexplicably changed the introduction of the latter article to only "non-Chinese nationalities such as South Korean and North Korean people", the complete opposite of the article's previous main focus, and created this new article.

This new article, despite being titled "Chaoxianzu", the Korean ethnicity in China, is almost entirely an original research assay on political issues surrounding the identity of Chaoxianzu and their emigration to South Korea. It cites 25 sources currently – I've checked all accessible ones, and the vast majority of them are fake citations that do not support the preceding text. (It is also immediately obvious, from the way citations are added here, that they are fake.) The only parts that are actually supported, such as the population in South Korea, are also discussed in the main "Koreans in China" article and it makes little sense to duplicate them there.

In the future, the topic of Koreans in China could still benefit from a split between articles on Korean Chinese citizens (Chaoxianzu) and recent South Korean arrivals in China. However it is now being split in the worst possible way: we are getting a extremely low-quality new article on Chaoxianzu, and another article that claims to be about non-Chinese citizens, but still mainly deals with the chaoxianzu. Splitting content about South Koreans from the main article would be a much better solution. Esiymbro (talk) 22:48, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Ethnic groups and China. Esiymbro (talk) 22:48, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please read Talk:Chaoxianzu in Korea. The modifications made to the Wikipedia articles concerning the Korean community in China stem from a necessity to more accurately represent the diverse experiences and identities of Koreans in this region. It seems like you are ignoring the fact that in China, there are not only Chaoxianzu but also South Koreans and North Koreans. Please do not overlook them. The initial article, "Koreans in China," primarily addressed ethnic Koreans with Chinese nationality, known officially as Chaoxianzu (朝鲜族). The suggestion to delete this page seems to conflict with Wikipedia's goal of providing comprehensive information and raises concerns regarding neutrality. As a contributor, I strongly oppose this deletion. CONSTRUCTING CHAOXIANZU IDENTITY Presented in Partial Fulfillment of the Requirements for the Degree Doctor of Philosophy in the Graduate School of The Ohio State University Location: Home > Chinese Ethnic Groups > Korean Ethnic Groups > History National Ethnic Affairs Commission of the People's Republic of China I want to emphasize that the data and content I have provided are not products of independent research but are derived from verified and academically recognized sources. The assertion that my contributions are based on independent studies is inaccurate. These sources are well-studied and corroborated. If additional data are required, I am more than willing to provide it. Considering the term "Chaoxianzu" is an established English name in Northeast Asian academic and political discourse, the deletion of this article seems unjustified. "Chaoxianzu" is a globally recognized official name and is crucial in establishing and preserving the identity of Korean-Chinese citizens with Chinese nationality.

Over time, it became evident that the experiences of South Korean and North Korean nationals in China were significantly different, necessitating a more distinct focus. This observation led to the reorientation of the "Koreans in China" article to more prominently include these groups.

The creation of the new article titled "Chaoxianzu" was intended to offer a specific platform for discussing the distinct aspects of Korean ethnicity in China, separate from the broader context of all Koreans in China. This distinction allows for a more detailed exploration of the Chaoxianzu, including their political issues and migration patterns to South Korea. The aim was not to undermine the significance of Chaoxianzu but to grant it a unique and separate focus.

In conclusion, the adjustments made to the Wikipedia articles were driven by the desire to provide more defined and detailed coverage of the various Korean communities in China. While challenges concerning the accuracy of content and reliability of sources have been noted, these can be effectively addressed through collaborative editing and strict adherence to Wikipedia's guidelines. Therefore, I firmly oppose the deletion of these articles and commit to actively contributing additional data to enhance their quality and comprehensiveness. Strategicasian (talk) 18:11, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Tentative keep but I do agree that the article has a lot of significant issues and think the scope of the Koreans in China could be realigned. I've also been concerned with the quality of the article.

My thoughts:

Chaoxianzu are an international and distinct group that I think deserve their own article.
Koreans in China are a broader category that includes Chaoxianzu, albeit not entirely, as Chaoxianzu are international.

Given the second point, I think the scope of Koreans in China could be Chaoxianzu (specifically in China, maybe mention the Chaoxianzu diaspora), as well as the South and North Korean diasporas in China. The article would then WP:SUMMARY-style mention Chaoxianzu (i.e. a few dense paragraphs with key information only, leaving the rest for the full article), with a prominent Template:Main article that makes it clear the rest of the info can be found on the other article.

Given the issues with article quality, I could see an argument for delete unless someone is willing to significantly improve the issues addressed. I'm on the fence about it. With respect @Strategicasian, I think there needs to be a stronger effort to keep closer to Wikipedia guidelines; you edit WP:BOLD-ly, but I think you're too bold. The information in it I think is not necessarily false or unhelpful, but it has systemic issues that may take ages to organically address. It'd be great if you can do the rewrite; you would need to do a careful read through of the Wikipedia style guides (reading Wikipedia:Good Article criteria is an ok place to start; you don't need to promote to GA, but just follow the principles in the article), and ask for feedback from more experienced users. I wish I could provide more focused feedback, but I have a lot on my plate lately. toobigtokale (talk) 18:25, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your thoughtful and constructive feedback on the "Chaoxianzu" article. I appreciate your recognition of the distinctiveness of the Chaoxianzu as an international group and the importance of having a dedicated article for them. Your suggestion to realign the scope of the "Koreans in China" article to include not just the Chaoxianzu but also the South Korean and North Korean diasporas in China is insightful. As you can see from sources like "Study on the Adjustment Process of Chaoxianzu during Cross-Cultural Transition in South Korea," "A Taste of South Korea in Shanghai, China's Koreatown," and "Shanghai Municipal People's Government - Site of the Korean Government in Exile, a Symbol of a Long-Standing Friendship," there is a clear distinction between Koreans in China and Chaoxianzu in Korea. Study on the Adjustment Process of Chaoxianzu during CrossCultural Transition in South Korea A taste of South Korea in Shanghai, China's Koreatown Shanghai Municipal People's Government - Site of the Korean government in exile a symbol of a long-standing friendship - Since the establishment of formal diplomatic relations between China and South Korea three decades ago, six South Korean presidents have visited the Site of the Korean Provisional Government at 306 Madang Road in Huangpu District. The statistics of overseas Koreans include South Koreans who are temporarily staying in China. Therefore, when the President of South Korea visits and stays in China, technically, they would be counted among 'Koreans in China.' However, it's nonsensical to include the South Korean President in the statistics for Chaoxianzu. Therefore, there is a need for clear distinction between the "Chaoxianzu" page and the "Koreans in China" page. This is not an ethnic distinction but an objective differentiation based on nationality.

This approach, which integrates a WP:SUMMARY-style mention of the Chaoxianzu with a clear redirection to the main article, seems like a balanced way to address the complexities of these communities.

I understand your concerns regarding the quality of the article and agree that adherence to Wikipedia guidelines is paramount. Your observation about the systemic issues in the article is well-received. I am willing to undertake the necessary improvements and commit to a thorough review and rewrite of the content in compliance with Wikipedia's style guides. I appreciate your suggestion to consult the Wikipedia:Good Article criteria and other relevant guidelines to ensure the article meets the necessary standards. Moving forward, I will endeavor to strike a more careful balance, ensuring that my contributions are not only bold but also align with Wikipedia's best practices. Strategicasian (talk) 19:44, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep with the expectation that the article will be improved and the main article will adequately WP:SUMMARIZE as proposed above. The topic is distinct and article-worthy to me, but I also echo that it needs work. Remsense留 01:42, 3 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 23:17, 4 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Merge trimmed and properly sourced content, cleaning up WP:OR and duplicate info, into Koreans in China: I think this is a completely unneeded CFORK. Fitting this with SUMMARYSTYLE is a huge stretch. Restore main to pre split. // Timothy :: talk 22:59, 6 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Liz @Remsense @TimothyBlue @Toobigtokale

Keep this article please. I oppose bringing together three groups of linguistic, social and political and cultural differences. BBC: The Chaoxianzu are distinctly Chinese. "The Chaoxianzu were born in China and are Chinese with Chinese nationality." One of the most frequently asked questions was, "Are you Chinese or Korean?" (조선족은 엄연한 중국인 "조선족은 중국에서 태어났고 중국 국적을 가진 중국인이다." 8년째 한국에서 생활하고 있는 조선족 파 모씨는 자신이 가장 많이 받는 질문 중 하나가 "중국인이냐? 한국인이냐?"라며 이같이 답했다. )

The Chaoxianzu, residing in China, Korea, and Japan are not merely Koreans; they are legal and official citizens of the People's Republic of China (PRC). This identity sets them apart from the traditional concept of being 'Korean' as they hold no nationality ties with either South Korea or North Korea. The Chaoxianzu's integration into Chinese society extends beyond geographical boundaries, influencing their identity even when they move abroad. For instance, those who migrate to the United States and acquire American citizenship are often classified as Chinese American due to their original Chinese nationality. This distinction is pivotal when considering the Chaoxianzu's sense of belonging and identity. The linguistic divide is particularly notable, as many within the Chaoxianzu community do not speak Korean language (The historical migration and classification of the Chaoxianzu in China offer a complex and layered narrative. The early settlers, traced back to the descendants of ancient Korean captives or abductees around the Ming-Qing transition period, approximately in the 1620s, have a history stretching back around 400 years. This earlier migration contrasts with the more recent influx of Korean immigrants, which occurred from around 1850 up until 1945, primarily under Japanese rule. Most of these immigrants moved to China during the early 20th century. In a significant administrative move during the years 1949-1953, the Government of China officially classified this population as 'Chinese Chaoxianzu' rather than Korean. This classification not only legally defined their status but also culturally and historically distinguished them from the broader Korean diaspora. Such a distinction is essential to understand the unique identity and heritage of the Chaoxianzu in the context of Chinese national history and ethnic diversity.), further distancing them from the over 80 million Koreans who do not speak Chinese. Such a significant cultural and linguistic gap necessitates separate pages and classifications to accurately represent these unique experiences and identities.

In this sense, 1980s Chinese ethnic Korean revolutionary narratives can be said to have expanded ethnic consciousness as broadly as possible. In so doing, they paradoxically reconstructed a more robust sense of national identity for chaoxianzu than had been presented previously. - Sungkyunkwan University, Academy of East Asian Studies

Maintaining a distinct article for the Chaoxianzu is essential to understand these unique cultural and national distinctions within the broader context of the Koreans in China. The Chaoxianzu differ markedly from South Koreans and North Koreans residing in China. Their primary identity is anchored in their Chinese nationality, making their experiences and cultural integration distinct from Korean communities in other regions, such as those in Korea and Japan.

This distinction is highlighted in articles such as 'Chaoxianzu in Korea' and 'Chaoxianzu in Japan.' In China, the Chaoxianzu have formed a community deeply integrated into the fabric of Chinese society, often with a high proficiency in Mandarin, a skill not commonly found among Korean nationals from the Republic of Korea (ROK) living in China. This linguistic proficiency is a key facet of the Chaoxianzu's identity, underscoring the need for a dedicated article to explore these nuanced differences adequately.

Chaoxianzu Village 朝鲜族村委会 Chaoxianzu used to be considered as foreigners or immigrants in Chinese society, but after the founding of the Peoples' Republic of China, they were bestowed new status as one of ethnic groups in China. - Seoul National University

Thank you for considering this perspective. It is crucial to represent the Chaoxianzu's unique position within the diverse tapestry of ethnic communities in China. Strategicasian (talk) 10:19, 7 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
(Central Committee of the Chinese Communist Party > Basic Information > Ethnic Minorities in China > Chaoxianzu (朝鲜族))'

The proposal to merge the English Wikipedia page 'Koreans in China' with the 'Chaoxianzu' page, as outlined under the Central Committee of the Chinese Communist Party's section on ethnic minorities, requires thorough deliberation to ensure accurate representation of distinct ethnic and national identities. It is essential to recognize that while South and North Koreans may share ancestral roots with the Chaoxianzu, but South Korean and North Korean were not included in the Chinese Communist Party's classification of ethnic minorities between 1949 and 1953 because they have their own countries. Korea is not part of China. This period marked a significant distinction in the recognition of these groups.

The contrasting political landscapes of the United States and the Republic of Korea, both staunch upholders of liberal democracy, markedly differ from the historical ties of the Chaoxianzu with the Chinese Communist Party, particularly during certain historical conflicts. This contrast underlines the importance of recognizing Korea as a sovereign nation. Koreans, whether from the South or the North, form a distinct majority in their own country, contrasting with the Chaoxianzu, who are ethnic Koreans with Chinese nationality. Consequently, while the category 'Koreans in China' may encompass Chaoxianzu, it does not equate them, as South Korean and North Korean individuals are not Chinese citizens, a status unique to the Chaoxianzu.

"My uncle went to the Joseon War (Korean War) and received a medal." This is a saying that I encounter at least once when I meet Chaoxianzu (조선족) and get along with her to some extent. Chaoxianzu proudly says that Chaoxianzu participated in the Korean War. It is absurd to hear this for the first time. In addition to experiencing a threshing cup at a gunpoint between the two Koreas, even Chaoxianzu, who lives in a third country, participated in the war. Moreover, what is it that you are talking so proudly about your participation in the war? In fact, when you pass the mountains and fields of Yanbian, you can easily encounter revolutionary martyrs and war memorials scattered here and there. This is to commemorate the contributions made by the Chaoxianzu in the anti-Japanese struggle, the civil war with the Kuomintang government, and the Korean War. The number reaches tens of thousands. For Chaoxianzu living in China, a socialist country, the Korean War is a war of justice. It is the so-called 'anti-American aid security people' war against the U.S. imperialists' invasion of North Korea and attack China. Therefore, for Chaoxianzu, participating in the war is nothing to be proud of. South Koreans are just unaware of the background in which they proudly talk about those who participated in the Korean War. The Chaoxianzu Koreans, who did not return to China after liberation and chose China as their home base, greatly contributed to the establishment of a communist regime by helping the Chinese Communist Party. In addition, they followed the decision of the Chinese Communist Party and took the lead in the Korean War. In particular, during the Korean War, Chaoxianzus' participation in the Korean War was just to protect their country against the "invasion of the American imperialists."

The potential integration of the 'Koreans in China' page with the 'Chaoxianzu' page on Wikipedia might inadvertently suggest that Koreans and North Koreans in China are part of the People's Republic of China. Such an interpretation misrepresents the distinct national identities of South and North Koreans, which are separate from the identity of the Chaoxianzu. Without careful consideration of these nuances, merging these pages could lead to neutrality concerns and inaccuracies in depicting these distinct groups. Furthermore, the current linkage of the Chaoxianzu on the Chinese Wikipedia explicitly defines them as ethnic minorities within China, with Chinese nationality. Blending this with the 'Koreans in China' page could inadvertently convey a misleading narrative, implying that South Koreans are a minority group in China.

Therefore, it is essential to maintain a distinct delineation between the Chaoxianzu and other Korean communities in China. This distinction is crucial for an accurate and unbiased representation of their respective identities and histories, taking into account the complex socio-political factors that have shaped their unique experiences. Ensuring this separation upholds the integrity of the historical and cultural narratives of these groups within the broader context of their presence in China. Strategicasian (talk) 11:28, 7 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@TimothyBlue's post doesn't address my or @Strategicasian's concerns about Chaoxianzu being not a neat subcategory of Koreans in China. The repatriates to Korea (both South and North) complicate the picture. If we do do the merge, a separate article for "Chaoxianzu in Korea" may need to be created; I don't see why we should do that when we can just create a single article for Chaoxianzu and have a section for the return diaspora.

@Strategicasian, unless other people jump in, given the current discussion I don't think this article will be deleted or merged. There's enough pushback to make it doubtful. If push comes to shove, I can take an effort to fix up the article to prevent its deletion. toobigtokale (talk) 15:15, 7 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.