Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Community sanction/Archive2

Community ban request on User:GordonWatts

The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this page.

GordonWatts (talk · contribs) is a single-issue account whose single issue is Terri Schiavo. Through his entire time on Wikipedia, he has been vexatious, disruptive, argumentative, and intent on pushing his version of events on any all articles connected to Terri Schiavo. Things had stabilized after he went away about a year ago, but he's back with the same act. His latest is to press beyond all reasonable standards for the inclusion of external links to his personal Geocities/AOL Homepage websites, calling the newspapers on par with the New York Times -- or maybe even better, since he claims to be an authority. Despite universal opposition -- except for the brief resurfacing of an old POV-pushing comrade from the worst of the Terri Schiavo edit wars -- that the links utterly failed external link policies, he persists with disruptive, vexatious, long-winded, barely-connected-to-reality and garishly colored* elaborations. Check out the talk pages for Talk:Government involvement in the Terri Schiavo case and Talk:Terri Schiavo and you'll see what I mean.

His cranking out of thousands of words of his self-serving (helping to fill 40-odd pages of archives), garishly colored nonsense -- supported by (almost) no one -- filling up the talk pages is disruptive and distracting. It always has been, it is now, and -- given Gordon's track record of not understanding plain-English explanations to him, his sense of righteousness unencumbered by evidence or outside opinion, and his inability to disengage unless absolutely forced to (and even then merely as a pause before trying a different tactic later on) -- always will be. Enough is enough, and encouraging him is ill-advised. You'll note that even people who are sympathetic to him still get the full-on Gordon Watts loghorrea when contradicting him, which is as disruptive a way of driving off disagreement as I can think of not involving personal threats as I can imagine.

He's been told "no", but still he persists. Enough. He's not going to magically become better, and it's time he was shown the door. --Calton | Talk 13:34, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

• Not a violation, actually, but really really annoying.

As noted here, in a timed display of similar thinking, I support this. For the record, I have never edited any article connected to the Terri Schiavo case and took a look at the incident because Gordon asked for help on the AN/I board. I see no indicators that this user is anything more than a single issue poster who's presence on the page is to ensure that he can engage in self-promotion, his actions are fundementally not "wikipedian" - they are to promote himself rather than build a better encyclopedia. Having said that, if editors felt this was too harsh, I would also support a limited community ban which restricts him from adding his own newspapers freely-hosted websites and editting Terri Schiavo related articles. --Fredrick day 13:44, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Fredrick day. Gordon is essentially only on Wikipedia to contribute to Terri Schiavo related articles, and his main interest has been adding his own sites to the articles (which are nearly unanimously considered to not meet WP:External links). A restriction from editing Schiavo case articles should be adequate. Leebo⁸⁶ 13:54, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

As noted here, where I thanked others for participating, I have long stopped editing on the Schiavo articles (or any articles for that matter), and have accepted concensus. The few occasional replies to others' posts is not unreasonable; To ban a user for responding to a post to him sounds vindictive. (If you don't like what is posted and don't want me to reply to you, then simply ignore that page and don't post on it. I am not going to start talking to myself -or, if I do, then we can deal with that when, uh, I mean IF, it happens.) To ban a user who has stopped editing on the articles in question and accepted concensus is not necessary -and sounds like revenge for taking a stand. You're move.--GordonWatts 14:23, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I Support a community ban. First, as a disclosure because of the political nature of his disputes, I have never edited any of the articles related to Terri Schiavo or any of the related sociological or political issues. The issues with Gordon are long term and extreme enough for a community ban. He has repeatedly attempted to inject his point of view into the articles related to Terri Schiavo, but in a back handed, voluminous, and wikilawyering way. Separate from that, he has repeatedly tried to elevate his own status and stature by extreme self promotion. He has an obsession with the issue and with the dead woman, and one could argue that there are conflict of interest issues as well.

But that is not the crux of the issues with Gordon. He does not understand our Project's policies and guidelines, interprets and bends those he does for his own benefit rather than the benefit of the project or of the community. Nor does he, I believe, have the ability to understand our community norms. I do not believe that his acts are specifically malicious - but the volume and persistence of his acts and ignorance has long ago exhausted the community's patience. And he is annoying to an extreme level.

Multiple times he has said that he is leaving or cutting back his activities, only to not cut back at all or to later return full force.

Gordon has a talent, for sure, but his talents lie in churning out thousands of words on small issues, and repeating himself ad nauseum and in ignorance of those around him. As he is fond of reminding everybody and their cousin, he has his own websites. Wikipedia is not a sounding board for his views and obsessions. Gordon can not be fixed. I know it is extreme, but he needs to go away. --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 14:30, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

"extreme self promotion...our Project's policies and guidelines..." If you will note, Jeff, this disagreement about my websites is only a minor issue, with many other links being deleted willy-nilly. I'm not the only one to share that concern: If you note in this diff, one of my opponents even admits that "I'm active on other pages, and I'm finding that blogs and personal websites are being ruthlessly removed, with the instruction to find the same information elsewhere, or leave it out." So, you are focusing on someone who had long ago accepted concensus (a waste of time) -and don't focus on the bigger picture, the actual Wikipedia project you mention above, where other editors agree that there is a problem with "personal websites are being ruthlessly removed." As long as people post nonsense to me, I have a right to reply; If you don't want me to reply here in talk, then simply don't post to me; Simple as that. You seem to want to egg on the matter -even though I have not only accepted the concensus but also abided by it; You don't see me adding ANY links, those I support -or those I oppose. As a matter of fact, besides not editing on the article pages, I may not even reply to future posts in this thread, so I may just not edit at all. Then, what are you going to? Ban someone who posts an occasional reply to a talk page? Overkill. Your move.--GordonWatts 14:40, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

"So, you are focusing on someone who had long ago accepted concensus" What exactly is "long ago" in this statement? It can't have been more than a day or so, because I only stumbled across this issue in the last few days. Leebo⁸⁶ 14:44, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

In wikipedia parlance, a few days is a long time, because of the fast pace here. That I had accepted concensus before your post -and stopped editing on the article page before your post -and stopped even posting to the talk page -except to post in reply -is the salient point -which shows me that you are asking for something after the fact. If the only problem you perceive is me replying to your posts (since I am not editing the article -or threatening to), then the solution is simple: Just don't post to me, and I can't reply! I would, if I were you, do this. I may not even post a reply to this page -be put on notice: I have a real life -but your question seemed a sincere and good one. NOW, arighty: You all are going to have to take care of wikipedia, because you all won the concensus.--GordonWatts 14:49, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

a long time ago? today is a long time ago? --Fredrick day 14:55, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

"a long time ago?" First, I want to answer Frederick's question here, as it seems genuine and seeking the truth: When I said that I had not edited in a long time, I was specifically referring to the article pages. (You're going to have ongoing discussion on the talk pages.)

• The last time I edited the Gov't involvement in Terri Schiavo page was here at 12:51, 13 February 2007, where I revered based on this logic: (rv: #1: I did not "add" my link - I partially reverted, and that was the outcome; #2: I am not adding a news source, but rather advocacy; Address why other "blogs" are allowed and I won't revert you..).
• The last time I edited the Public opinion & activism / Terri Schiavo case pg was here back on Feb 09, where I fixed a spacing typo.
• The last time I edited the main Terri Schiavo page was here at 12:05, on 13 February 2007, because (Revert to version 107541828 (11:58, 12 February 2007) because massive deletions of many links were made without having reached proper Concensus or discussion on talk page.)

So, yes, it WAS a long time ago that I edited, a good number of days, and I never came anywhere the "3 revert" rules because I wanted to reach the end-result by consensus -not bullying. Was I wrong to refuse to bully and push here?--17:22, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

• I support an article ban from subjects related to Terry Schiavo and an outright ban on linking his website, enforced if necessary by blacklisting it. Whether Gordon can be a productive editor elsewhere is unproven, let him prove himself, but there is little doubt that his edits to Schiavo articles have been disruptive and vain, and that cannot continue. he evidently has some capacity or self-delusion so I would like to clarify something: while numerous editors have been kind and patient explaining to Gordon why his actions are problematic, it would not matter where this material is hosted or who added the links, it fails WP:RS by a wide margin. The content itself is the problem, not where it is hosted or who added the links, although they are certainly the problem in terms of user conduct. This is precisely the kind of material we intended to exclude when WP:RS was written. Guy (Help!) 15:18, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

• I support banning him from pages related to Terry Schiavo, and blacklisting the links as promotional. He seems to be wasting people's time and misusing the talk pages to such an extent that it is interfering with the project. Tom Harrison ^Talk 15:39, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

• The applicable guideline is Wikipedia:Disruptive editing. Being annoying is just that - annoying, but I don't think there's any malice or ill motive in his actions. He just seems very dedicated to asserting that Terri Schiavo was murdered by Democrats and euthanasia is evil. It's not even a matter of admitting when he's wrong, as he will do so, but continue to press the case in a different way, failing to learn anything. I am in a dilemma. I do not want a ban at this point for Gordon, but I worry about what else can be done. I have tried reasoning with him on more than one occasion, and it has a short-term effect at best. A warning to knockit off won't work, as he's had those before, and a ban from editing Schiavo and related articles would be pointless, as he only edits Schiavo and related articles (n.b. - nothing wrong with a narrow focus - many very fine editors only edit one or a few articles). Being annoying and writing long messages on talk pages is his sole crime. He hasn't edit warred (much) over the links, just complained volubly on the talk page about their removal. Annoying: yes, disruptive: a little, but malicious: no. If he had just edit warred, he'd have got a 24 hour block, but because he spoke up (albeit at great length, over and over) he's being community banned? I don't like that. Suggest a self-imposed break, and if Gordon doesn't learn when he returns, then we're looking at a ban. But there's been no warnings about this, and so I cannot support a ban. Proto ► 15:57, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

• If all of Gordon Watts's claims on yesterday's edit which Frederick day listed above are true, then he is in violation of WP:COI. Corvus cornix 17:34, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

• I cannot support a ban, per Proto. –King Bee ^{(T • C)} 20:14, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

• I'm not personally familiar with the history here, but if an editor has been around a long time and still not found a way to make himself useful, and if he's causing harm to the project (even somewhat minor harm), simple cost/benefit analysis suggests that we'd be better off without him, right? Since his goals are apparently not compatible with the goals of Wikipedia, the solution seems obvious. Let him do his soapboxing on his own website, it's not useful here. Friday (talk) 20:18, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I strongly oppose a ban, per Proto. I've seen a lot of Gordon on Wikipedia, and while I often wish he would act differently, a lot of people who were irritated by him have behaved disgracefully towards him, and with impunity. I won't bother to search for diffs, as this is not an RfC or an RfArb, but, if people wish to verify any particular incidence, I'm sure I could look them up. This was the second message ever posted on Gordon's talk page (other than by Gordon himself). If that how we are supposed to treat newcomers? Duckecho wrote some rather nasty stuff making fun of Gordon on his own userpage, and then went to the Terri Schiavo talk page to invite editors to come along and look at it. Duckecho also, at one stage, moved all of Gordon's posts on the Terri Schiavo talk page away from where they had been posted down to the bottom of the page with an edit summary "Creating a sandbox for the kids to play in while the adults work on the article", and reverted me twice when I undid it on the grounds that attacking another editor's dignity does not help Wikipedia. On one occasion, when Gordon left a message at Calton's talk page, which Calton may well have found irritating, but which was not a personal attack, Calton deleted it with the edit summary "reverting not-very-bright troll".[1] When Gordon, at the time of his unsuccessful RfA, kept telling everyone that he had never been blocked, Carnildo blocked him for one second, entering as the reason that Gordon kept pointing to his clean block log. Even recently, when Gordon called Calton "Cal" (which I'm sure was not intended to give offence, as lots of editors use abbreviations of names) , and Calton replied with something like "Only my friends get to call me Cal, Gordy-boy." I just see example after example of people taking away the dignity of someone who gets on their nerves.

I believe that the the addition of Gordon's links would be contrary to WP:COI, WP:RS, and WP:EL, regardless of their merit. But he isn't edit warring over it; he's just posting extremely long rebuttals to everyone who disagrees with him. That's hardly something you ban someone for, expecially if you take into account that he has been treated extremely rudely by other users, and has never shown himself to be malicious. If you don't like his long replies, then don't respond. Gordon does not edit war — certainly not more than his opponents. He never vandalizes. He annoys people by telling them (in great detail) why they're wrong and he's right. In response to Friday's post about not having found a way to make himself useful, Gordon has often been very helpful to the article, correcting spelling errors, improving format, taking a photo of Terri Schiavo's grave, so as to reduce the number of Fair Use images. As Proto says, he's not malicious. I very much commend Proto for his efforts at fairness, both here, and in a recent message on Gordon's talk page. I strongly recommend to Calton that before trying things like community bans, he try to place more importance on the dignity of users with whom he disagrees. I strongly disagree with the idea that we don't have to treat other users with respect if we find them disruptive. Calton does valuable work here, and I've often noticed it, but some indication of kindness towards users who annoy him would make his work more valuable. Musical Linguist 00:01, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I also strongly oppose a ban per Proto. Gordon AND Calton could both act better, nothing Gordon has done requires a Community Ban. - SVRTVDude ^{(Yell - Toil)} 00:47, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Duckecho wrote some rather nasty stuff making fun of Gordon on his own userpage

Wrong. Duckecho debunked Gordon's long-standing claim-- one he still maintains -- of being a major participant in the legal shenangins surrounding the Terri Schiavo case, Gordon frequently bragging about he "did better than Jeb Bush" and even trying to use that as a wedge in his most recent crusade. It's nasty in the sense that a dash of cold water is nasty.

But he isn't edit warring over it...

Yes he has, as a glance at the edit history would show, just not to the point of hitting the 3RR limit.

...he's just posting extremely long rebuttals to everyone who disagrees with him. That's hardly something you ban someone for...

it is, given its extreme disruption and its intent of wearing down anyone who disagrees with him. It's been done before: User:Herschelkrustofsky, User:Terryeo, User:Everyking, and a few others whose names I can't recall come to mind.

As Proto says, he's not malicious.

Immaterial. He's disruptive and shown himself to be incapable of learning.

when Gordon left a message at Calton's talk page, which Calton may well have found irritating, but which was not a personal attack, Calton deleted it with the edit summary "reverting not-very-bright troll".

Reaching back 16 months for "evidence" is really stretching, don't you think? And the edit summary could have been better phrased but was nonetheless accurate: Gordon WAS trolling, part of a long series of condescending messages peppering my page (some edit summaries: What's the matter, Calton: Can't stand the criticism of fellow-editors? and If you need forgiveness on this or other matters from me, I will grant it.

Funny, though, how your extensive research missed Gordon's attempt at an RFC against me at the same time as the above for "excessive reverting": he left messages on the pages of two editors with whom I'd had disgreements -- including one who'd just been banned by ArbCom, Gordon leaving his message just below the ArbCom notification [2] -- then came immediately to my Talk page claiming that he and four other editors (note the difference in numbers) had gotten together to file an RFC. [3] Note that he hadn't even bothered waiting for any replies before making his claim that "two definitely are" here. The false sincerity of the message text (Please note that I don't act in revenge, but in prevention, the best medicine, an ounce of which is worth a pound of cure -and I'm courteous and polite to give you a heads up, because you deserve a chance to run while you have a chance. I would expect no less from my own honorable adversaries) was particularly choice. Unctuous smarm is no better than active hostility.

Gordon has often been very helpful to the article, correcting spelling errors, improving format, taking a photo of Terri Schiavo's grave, so as to reduce the number of Fair Use images

Gordon is not uniquely or even especially valuable in that context -- a machine can correct spelling errors -- and given his extreme ownership issues surrounding the Terri Schiavo articles, a net drag, given that he requires constant supervision -- which he contests at every turn, sucking up time and energy.

Whether he's a nice guy or an evil, mustache-twirling villian is completely irrelevant as to the issue of whether he's disruptive: "sincere" disruption is no different from "malicious" disruption, no matter how many excuses you make for it. --Calton | Talk 01:20, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't think any of the above from User:Calton is particularly helpful or necessary to this discussion. Most of the comments made by "Duckecho" would be considered hearsay and unless said by "Duckecho" here, should be striken from the record. - SVRTVDude ^{(Yell - Toil)} 01:27, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

This isn't a court of law, Mr. Dershowitz. --Calton | Talk 07:54, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

No it's not, but you sure as hell are acting like it is. A court that is run by Calton and Calton alone where Calton should get what he wants, when he wants, and be damned the rules and people he has to run over to get it in the process. - SVRTVDude ^{(Yell - Toil)} 15:48, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose. Concur in part, and dissent in part, from Musical Linguist above: I agree that ferocity of Calton's attacks on Gordon Watts are excessive and very snarky for an experienced editor who wants to claim victim status. The two of them seem to have inexhaustible time to go and back and forth since Calton commenced this Wikiwar on 9 February, 2007. Nevertheless, Gordon Watts, the activist, is part of the story of the government involvement in the Terri Schiavo case, unless one wishes to fully revise history. Without much effort I found these by narrowing a Google search to .gov [4] and [5] and there is likely more in .com and .org, subtracting out his personal web site. Those petitions have already been memorialized in this Schiavo resource site [6] and should be referenced in our article as well. What Gordon Watts, the Wikipedia editor, appears to lack is the ability to kowtow to Calton as well as some HTML skills. No ban is called for. I agree with all of the others who are calling for a little more self-restraint by the warriors. patsw 01:41, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Nevertheless, Gordon Watts, the activist, is part of the story of the government involvement in the Terri Schiavo case, unless one wishes to fully revise history. Utterly irrelevant spin, but not even wrong: readers are invited to peruse Duckecho's exxhaustive debunking of Gordon's long-standing claim. --Calton | Talk 01:51, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Shouting is not necessary and let Duckecho know that he can come here and comment on this discussion. Please, though, let's keep this discussion on track. - SVRTVDude ^{(Yell - Toil)} 01:55, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

No one is shouting, Duckecho isn't here but the debunking is easily read by anyone, the discussion IS on track, and you should stop with the wikistalking, already. --Calton | Talk 02:04, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Not Wikistalking, just defending a friend. - SVRTVDude ^{(Yell - Toil)} 02:09, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Reality varies: you never even heard of the guy until you enlisted his help this week. --Calton | Talk 07:51, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, cause he was being harrassed by you. I just gave him a simple RfC link which preceded the request for this community ban. - SVRTVDude ^{(Yell - Toil)} 15:48, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose.Per Musical Linguist and Proto.Giovanni33 02:19, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
• I Oppose a community ban. I read through Talk:Government involvement in the Terri Schiavo case and I think Gordon has exhausted Calton's patience, but I don't think he has yet exhausted the community's patience. I agree that Gordon is very trying, annoying and he seems to have a very warped sense of self-importance. However, I don't see anything that I feel justifies a community ban. He has only been blocked twice: once on 19 September 2005 for one second for "pointing to his clean block log as a reason why he should be made an admin". The second block was for 12 hours on 02:16, 25 September 2005 for "violation of agreement at Talk:Terri Schiavo". In the last 17 months, Gordon has not been blocked at all. before supporting a community ban, I would rather see more blocks of increasing lengths used where necessary. A community ban should be a last resort. Gordon has a clear conflict of interest with regard to all the Schiavo articles and his links are clearly inapprorpriate, but he has agreed not to edit the Schiavo articles further.

Also, Calton needs to stop being antagonistic, provocative, bullying and rude towards Gordon. I don't know if there's some ruling (from anyone other than Calton) that says that Gordon is not allowed to comment on the relevant article's talk pages, but if there is, I couldn't find it. All I could find was Calton repeatedly declaring that "Gordon is not free to rebut" matters discussed on the article's talk page. This is bullying. Gordon has already agreed not to edit the articles, if Calton wants him also restricted from responding on the talk page, he needs to get an appropriate injunction, rather than declaring it as a personal decree. Gordon's behaviour is disruptive and annoying, but I think a community ban at the present time is premature. Sarah 07:10, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

"Gordon has already agreed not to edit the articles" Well, let me clarify: I promised that I had not edited the main article pages for a good while, several days; I was making a promise about the past, not the future; also, please see my reply to Frederick above, where I made another promise about the past (it's easier to promise about the past, since it can't be changed) -I gave my word and promised I came nowhere near the 3-revert rule. I do not recall promising to not ever edit on the Schiavo pages; In fact, many people stick to their area of expertise, and while I edit a little everywhere, I am expert in only a few issues. I did strongly imply (if not promise) to not edit for a short while to give the issue time to cool off- and I also strongly implied (if not promised) to try accept consensus and not irritate or edit war with my global neighbours -and to be more flexible. Indeed, I may be guilty to being too talkative, and we all get ticked at times, but if I am guilty of spending lots of talk page space over something (hopefully to educate and seek consensus), then Calton is also guilty of the same thing: He posts long, irritating posts. Indeed, even as we speak, as pointed out by OrangeMonster, Calton has an RfC against him: Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Calton -and lots of people agree Calton has need for improvement. Not only is his behaviour bad, but also, his editing style is bad; He cuts too many things out of Wikipedia, so we can't cite our sources, and this will be a problem whether or not I regularly edit here. I already cited that even one editor, who disagreed with me on my page being used as a reference, concedes that I'm active on other pages, and I'm finding that blogs and personal websites are being ruthlessly removed, with the instruction to find the same information elsewhere, or leave it out. OK, while no one seems to agree that my newspaper should be a references, I'll AGREE with you that it may not be totally reliable (and by extension, so also, some smaller papers and blogs). BUT, these smaller news sources ARE partly reliable -hey! We don't all just write lies all the time, but that's what is implied by "not reliable." I'll offer a compromise here: Why don't we consider revising our application of the policy to allow for these smaller papers to be included -so long as they have supporting sources, that is, instead of citing just to, say, my paper, we can cite to 2 or 3 smaller blogs; In fact, even when using the NY Times as a source, we ought to have a "supporting" source, just to make sure we cite our sources.--GordonWatts 17:38, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Gordon, you're not helping yourself at all. Making promises about the past is ridiculous. You have a conflict of interest and should not be editing any of those pages. Your links are completely unacceptable for the articles. You either need to accept these things or you're going to have to accept a community ban. Sarah 17:53, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I have accepted the consensus and not threatened to violate it; however, what if this editor is right in her claims that we are not citing our sources? Also, I am not advocating specifically for "my" pages. That my pages are one of many that are arbitrarily excluded no less makes my point a valid one; So, please understand that I am NOT seeking to promote my websites, but if smaller news papers ARE indeed partly reliable but arbitrarily excluded, then I am right to speak up on that general issue, and those would bring up "my" newspapers are conflating (confusing) the point and side-stepping the issue. Indeed, if all I'm guilty of is advocating a change in policy (note that I've accepted the consensus on the issue of links to my page), then this is not a crime; it is something all should do: Advocate for change where change is necessary. You are confusing my advocacy of my links with my advocacy of the bigger issues of our policy. I am doing the latter, not the former--GordonWatts 18:00, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I think Gordon may have misunderstood something I said. He links to this post, and asks if I may be right in my claims that we are not citing our sources. I certainly never intended to make such a claim. I said, "I'm active on other pages, and I'm finding that blogs and personal websites are being ruthlessly removed, with the instruction to find the same information elsewhere, or leave it out. After you recover from your surprise, it actually seems a good idea." I was referring to the Gillian McKeith article, where a lot of criticism of McKeith was placed in the article, with references that linked to a blog. Some administrators have explained that we can't use that material, unless the criticism is found in a better source. The idea was not that we'd use it, and not cite our sources (which is what Gordon seems to think I meant), but that we shouldn't use it at all, unless it's in a reliable source. If the information is notable and newsworthy, it will presumably be found in The Times, or a similar source. I was actually saying to Gordon that the policy seems very strict, but that once you get used to it, it makes sense. ElinorD (talk) 21:39, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for clarifying your intent; It was not my intent to mischaracterize or misquote you; If what you say is true (and I'm sure it is), then the situation is even worse then my initial estimation: Even if we don't cite our sources but at least leave in the material, we can come back to it; By deleting sections of encyclopaedic entries for which only "non-notable" sources exist, we slice the Encyclopaedia in pieces, since, after all, we can either get several "non-notable" sources -or make a note that the sources are in question; That way we don't miss a beat -and preserve the record of history. MANY times an act or action will be witnessed or reported on only by a "non-notable" source, such as the time I was the only news reporter in one oral argument for George Felos, when he came before the court a block from my home in Lakeland. Yet that even really occurred and should be reported -as it happened -and if there are concerns about the source, then call the Schindlers; They can confirm whether or not the "non-notable" news report was true or not, and this will be your check-and-balance.--GordonWatts 04:28, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Furthermore, if I am right that our policy needs to be changed, then my advocacy of this is NOT a conflict of interest issue: I am not specifically advocating in this issue for inclusion of my links; That I did the latter in the past does not somehow negate this larger issue. I certainly don't seek a ban against Calton in his RfC, but he has violated actual and real rules, and is guilty of not only rudeness but also (if I am right about how we don't cite our sources) he would be guilty of cutting up articles and bad editing, even if he were polite. Even though I've commented that his behaviour is inappropriate and needs to be dealt with, I'm not seeking his ban, but if you seek a ban, he would be more worthy of one than would I. Did you see his RfC? One more thing: Saying that a person can't edit on a page where he has expert or first-hand knowledge because of a conflict of interest would effectively stop all doctors from editing medical articles and stop all biologists from editing biology articles, and we'd lost a lot of our expertise; Is that what you want?--GordonWatts 18:14, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Gordon, if you wish to discuss the validity of using certain links or lobby for policy change, you need to do that in the appropriate forum. Advocating for it and offering it as compromise in the middle of discussion of a proposal to ban you is not the right place.

Correct. I got side-tracked -and slightly over-reacted; Sorry! I shall correct that - via strikeout.--GordonWatts 04:41, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

You editing the Terri Schiavo articles is a completely different situation to, say, a doctor editing the heart article and I'm actually quite surprised that you don't get that. I know you self-proclaim yourself a Terri Schiavo expert and you've tried to claim "special standing" and "recognized authority" status on those articles.[7] I do not accept that claim and I don't believe the majority of editors would either. I don't know if you are an expert or even how that would measured and quantified, and I don't think it even matters. But what I do know is you have a clear conflict of interest and you should not be editing these articles. I think if you could put your belief about your status and significance in the case aside when you're on this website, and follow WP:COI and WP:RS, many of your problems would be resolved. I don't have a problem with you suggesting changes on the talk pages or discussing article content there, but you should not directly edit these articles or add links to your site to any article. Sarah 14:05, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

The use of the adverb "repeatedly" is false or at least wildly misleading and the context misrepresented: this was in response to his continuing to flog the dead horse of inserting his personal external links after continually being told that they weren't going in, period. I told him that if he continued, I'd request the ban. He continued, I requested.

if Calton wants him also restricted from responding on the talk page, he needs to get an appropriate injunction You're looking at that request: what else did you think this whole thread was about? Instead, we get people (who frankly ought to know better) enabling his dysfunctional behavior and feeding his overweening sense of self-worth instead, and at least annoying wikistalker hopping on the bandwagon hoping to recruit supporters.

My user page says at the top "It's clean-up duty, mopping up after the dishonest, incompetent, and fanatical." Gordon is all three, in spades, and whatever limited value he has -- other than a single-minded devotion to one subject (or, more precisely, one single view of a single subject) -- is far outweighed by his negatives. This place is not reform school or personal therapy, it's an encyclopedia, and I can't imagine what possible benefit there is in attempting a salvage job on someone who refuses to be salvaged. Between his previous and current antics at Terri Schiavo, at attempting to bully his way into making it a feature article, and his world-class wikilawyering at his spectacularly unsuccessful adminship bid (including an attempt at an end run by appealing to Jimbo to just give him the job, votes be damned), I'm trying to imagine HOW anyone thinks he's going to suddenly turn into a good contributor. --Calton | Talk 07:51, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

The use of the adverb "repeatedly" is false or at least wildly misleading and the context misrepresented. I looked quickly at Talk:Government_involvement_in_the_Terri_Schiavo_case#Enough and I see at least three times you insisted that Gordon was not free to rebut:

• "No more arguments, no more rationalizations, no more long-winded, disruptive, self-serving rebuttals..." --Calton | Talk 14:49, 15 February 2007
• "Gordon's free to rebut. No, he's not..." .-Calton | Talk 22:34, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
• "Gordon is free to rebut. No, he isn't: hundreds and thousands of words of his self-serving nonsense..." -Calton | Talk 00:02, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

While the first one was just your opening warning to Gordon that you would request a community ban if he continued with that behaviour, the other two were replies to User:Leebo86 and User:Hipocrite who disagreed with your edict. At least three is more than once and therefore "repeated". I don't think that is false or "wildly misleading."

You're looking at that request: what else did you think this whole thread was about? That's exactly my point, Calton: you declared editing restrictions before you even brought it to the community.

Instead, we get people (who frankly ought to know better) enabling his dysfunctional behavior and feeding his overweening sense of self-worth instead, and at least annoying wikistalker hopping on the bandwagon hoping to recruit supporters. I don't know who the stalker is or whether that is a general comment or if it's directed specifically at me, but what you've actually got is several people responding to your request and telling you that they don't think a community ban is appropriate yet. I'd be willing to support a community ban if other editors cut antagonising him AND there was a recent record of blocks. Is his behaviour disruptive enough to warrant a block? If it is, have him blocked a few times and see if that has any impact. If it isn't disruptive enough to warrant a block, how on earth can it warrant a ban? I don't think this is unreasonable, nor do I think that telling you your attitude and behaviour is unhelpful and Gordon that his attitude and behaviour is "very trying, annoying..." and "disruptive" and warning him that he is headed for a community ban is "enabling his dysfunctional behavior and feeding his overweening sense of self-worth." Also, I thought you posting on Talk:Government involvement in the Terri Schiavo case the link to that blog that ridiculed Gordon was pretty damn nasty. Sarah 12:17, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Since Sarah has supported me and seems to be taking a responsible attitude towards being fair, it has bothered me that there was a small difference of opinion -in which she commented that I should not edit the Terri Schiavo articles. Yes, I agree that I have some conflict of interest here, but it has just now dawned on me: I think she may feel my motives on this article were less than pure. (And if she doubts my motives, I'm sure that my detractors would doubt them even more.) So, I feel a obligation to clarify one big thing: In the many edits I've made, I DO have a hidden agenda: To better Wikipedia -and to have fun and make friends in the process; Proof of that claim is the fact that I often make sure opposing views and opposing links (that is, views with which I disagree) are presented. I even recently added Michael Schiavo's website to the main Terri Schiavo article, even though I was against him in my recent court case! To prove that my detractors are wrong, please note that here at 04:41am, way back on 18 January 2007, I added a link to Michael Schiavo's site to the main article. I don't want to argue much for myself, even as 10 of Trades suggested, but this one link is proof I'm not biased or in possession of a bad agenda. However, if MY website is helpful as a source (in one case, I was the only reporter present in an important oral argument hearing), then my pushing of my website is not per se pushing my own agenda: Most websites I support for inclusion are NOT my own -even those which are not pro-life like me. OK, now that I've got this off my chest, I apologise for the length of this page, but so many questions and accusations require some rebuttals hither and yon.--GordonWatts 04:28, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

• There is ONE take home message I hope none of us miss: We are unpaid editors, and while it is good that we expect a lot out of the articles, when unpaid persons are asked to sit in judgment of a peer, the quality of the inquest suffers, and instead of getting frustrated or blaming yourselves, please understand that you can't be expected to be a professional judge when you're not paid enough to do the job right. So, in conclusion, we must STRIVE for the stars -but we MUST NOT expect too much -lest we be disappointed; Be humble in your expectations, and you won't get disappointed; I hope this has encouraged my fellow-editors, for that was the hope.--GordonWatts 04:28, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Since Sarah has supported me... Gordon, I just need to clarify something: I think your behaviour is extremely problematic and I think that if you continue as you have in the past, you are heading for a community ban. There is a difference between thinking that you haven't entirely "exhausted the community's patience" yet and actually supporting you. I don't think you should be banned at the present time because I think we should exhaust other options such as blocking, restrictions etc, but I do not support you carrying on as you have been. Sarah 12:24, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Some numbers

The fact that I have edited for MANY THOUSANDS of edits on many HUNDREDS of pages -usually without incident

The statistics are technically true but -- as usual with Gordon -- misleading. Welcome to the mind of Gordon Watts. You were warned.

So let's break down those numbers, using the "Wannabe-Kate's Tool" [8]

Total edits: 4210: Avg edits per article: 12.38

• Mainspace edits: 575 (13.7% of all edits)

• Terri Schiavo: 418
• Government involvement in the Terri Schiavo case: 21
• Other Terri Schiavo-related pages: 45

• Total Terri Schiavo related edits: 484 (84.2% of category)

• Talk Page edits: 1266 (30.1% of all edits)

• Talk:Terri Schiavo: 830
• Talk:Terri Schiavo/Mediation: 150
• Talk:Government involvement in the Terri Schiavo case: 141
• Other Terri Schiavo-related Talk pages: 24

• Total Terri Schiavo-related Talk page edits: 1145 (90.4% of category)

• Wikipedia space: 562 (13.3% of all edits)

• Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Terri Schiavo/archive1: 107
• Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Terri Schiavo/archive2: 61
• Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Terri Schiavo/archive3: 57
• Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates: 57

• Total Terri Schiavo-FAC page edits: 282 (50.2% of category)

• Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/GordonWatts: 78
• Wikipedia Talk:Requests for adminship/GordonWatts: 29

• Total Adminship request edits: 107 (19.0% of category)

• User talk page edits: 1412 (33.5% of all edits)
• User page edits: 134 (3.2% of all edits)

• And the money shot: Everything else (other articles, Category, Template, Image, etc): 472 (11.2% of all edits)

If anyone can explain how and when the magic transformation of Gordon Watts will take place -- so far, no evidence, especially on this page -- I'd be grateful. --Calton | Talk 06:35, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

You are guilty of that which your friends are accusing me (being too talkative). I'm not seeking any punishment for this. (You have a right to talk) -but if I am talkative, you are very long-winded and non-stop (plus you have RfC problems that I don't have). In all areas of trouble, you excel me. Maybe we should have a Request for Ban page for you instead? Just a thought. OK, all I seek is a review of the facts -thank you for your input here; Very interesting.--GordonWatts 06:41, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Calton, are you trying to say that just because that is the only section on Wiki Gordon has edited/added to that he wouldn't be helpful in other sections? Gordon has not edited or added to a Terri Schiavo related page since February 16th, the day you submitted the community ban request. It has been suggested that a year-long ban from any Terri Schiavo related page be imposed, I would like to hear your opinion on that.

I think, given the chance, Gordon would be helpful on other sections of Wiki, regardless of your numbers. If we went by your numbers logic, I wouldn't be useful to Wiki if banned from radio and TV pages (the majority of my edit/adds). So, again, exactly what are you trying to say with these numbers?

Also, I would like a vote taken on the "one-year ban from articles and talk pages relating to Terri Schiavo" proposed by User:Mangojuice and User:GordonWatts a chance to prove himself elsewhere on Wikipedia to show that he is not just a one-subject editor. - SVRTVDude ^{(Yell - Toil)} 07:04, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

"Also, I would like a vote taken on the..." I'm not saying you are wrong here, but please note, SVRTVDude, that -at the top of the page -we see this quote regarding policy on voting: "While comments from all editors are welcome, please note that "voting" won't be taking place, including on proposed community bans. Ejecting an editor from the community does not rest solely on simple majorities, or even supermajorities." "a chance to prove himself elsewhere on Wikipedia" PS: Thanks for the suggestion, but I don't feel I need to prove myself any more; After thousands of edits, I've already proven myself -and I'm all worn out, and I need to just limp by at my own slow pace for editing, OK? I'm an old dude at 40 years of age!--GordonWatts 07:12, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

I didn't see the no voting taking place line...thanks:) I am guilty of skimming through things I read sometimes, this is one of those cases. - SVRTVDude ^{(Yell - Toil)} 07:22, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

No problemo. No harm done. OK, I'm an old fogey, and I don't much like all this editing; it's a wearing me out; Y'all figure this out. If the need arises, I might answer a stray question, but I hope not to. If anyone wants to make a suggestion, all I say is that personal responsibility lies with you to read the page (not that long, really) -and if you don't like the page, simply walk away and take care of more pressing issues. Have a nice day.--GordonWatts 07:29, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Gordon: PLEASE STOP. Stop commenting and replying to eveything. Seriously, you are only damaging your own case by replying to and arguing every point. Sarah 14:31, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

What? There is nothing wrong with replying to comments here. If people are allowed to make complaints about Gordon's behaviour in a public place in this way then he should be allowed to defend himself. Banning people from responding to accusations made against them is just unfair. --Veesicle (Talk) (Contribs) 02:52, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

You are guilty of that which your friends are accusing me (being too talkative). False, but you just keep thinking there, Butch, it's what you're good at.

Calton, are you trying to say that just because that is the only section on Wiki Gordon has edited/added to that he wouldn't be helpful in other sections? Yep. Multiple chances, multiple requests, multiple suggestions, same M.O. --Calton | Talk 07:30, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

"Butch, it's what you're good at."....I think we all know what you were trying to say in that first word and that's not even close to appropriate. Cussing (or "faux" cussing like above) is not necessary. Thank you. - SVRTVDude ^{(Yell - Toil)} 16:43, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

You would be, as usual, wrong, especially your use of "we": [9]. --Calton | Talk 01:11, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I would support a ban next time around, or even a temporary ban this time. I've had some experience dealing with Gordon Watts, and all of it has been extremely frustrating. In addition, I have yet to see a case where he has been easy to work with. As evidenced plenty on this page, he is difficult to discuss matters with, is illogical, and just seems to miss the point — it doesn't appear that he understands the problem. Although he seems very well intentioned, the amount of frustration created through dealing with Gordon seems to outweigh his contributions and good intentions. It seems to me that every effort to remedy the problem has been made. While I don't really want to ban him, something's got to give. Thus, I feel that maybe a ban is certainly coming if he keeps it up. Honestly, though, given his reactions on this page, I doubt that anything will change. I'm willing to give it a last shot, though. Kyle Barbour 03:13, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Community ban request on User:GordonWatts (section break 2)

This section with subsections is getting so long, that I'm not going to attempt to reply in the correct places. The dispute seems to have started with this uncivil edit summary from Calton. The material Calton was removing was in the article when I joined Wikipedia in April 2005 (before Gordon). The actual link (to a site that Calton objected to, but not Gordon's personal website) was added by Zenger, not by Gordon,[10] although Gordon did revert the person who reverted Zenger.[11]

Anyway, the link was added on 3 January. A month later, an anon (very likely banned user Amorrow) made massive changes to the article. Gordon reverted the changes on the grounds that they had not been discussed. Reverting the changes meant reinserting the link. Note that he did not sneakily add in a link while reverting unrelated changes: the version that he reverted to, from before the massive anon changes, had that link. Nevertheless, Calton removed the link (quite appropriately) with the extremely inappropriate and inaccurate edit summary "Remove Gordon's umpteenth attempt to sneak in the same unreliable source under cover of a series of edits."[12] Gordon seems to have been hurt and indignant. (Any chance, Calton, that you could try not to hurt other editors that you disagree with, or does that not matter?) Calton then posted several aggressive messages on Gordon's talk page, rejecting Gordon's protest that he had not added the link, he had merely reverted some massive changes from an anon. See here, where he aggressively accuses Gordon of "dishonesty" and of attempting "to sneak in" the link, here, where he says "And the name is "Calton": only my friends get to call me "Cal", Gordy-boy", here, where he says, "You did it. Don't lie. . . don't waste my time and insult my intelligence by cranking out long-winded excuses", here, where he says (of Orangemonster2k1) ":Hmm, a soul mate for you, Gordon, someone as equally clueless about Wikipedia policy", and here, where he says "Plugging your ears and saying "MAMAMAMAMAMAI'MNOTLISTENINGMAMAMAMA" doesn't change that."

It was after that rather nasty and abusive behaviour that Calton removed links to Gordon's personal sites from one of the Terri Schiavo sub-articles. Being familiar with Wikipedia policy about sources and links, I cannot fault him for removing them, but after his nasty abuse, it is hardly surprising that Gordon took it personally. Gordon then argued vociferously on the talk page, but did not make any huge efforts to keep reverting, and then Calton came here looking for a community ban on him.

Regarding Calton's claim that pushing back sixteen months for evidence is stretching it, I will say that I have personally had almost zero interaction with Calton, and the "reverting not-very-bright troll" edit summary was almost the first time I noticed him — and it really shocked me. Since Gordon was on a wikibreak that lasted for over a year, I can hardly give lots of examples from November 2006. I also think such evidence is important because Calton maintains that there's no obligation to treat Gordon with respect because of the way he has behaved since he arrived, and I maintain that Gordon was treated rudely from the very start.

I disagree with Friday's opinion that the abuse of other editors towards Gordon is irrelevant. The Terri Schiavo talk page was an extremely toxic, venomous place in the summer of 2005. The worst offender was eventually banned by an ArbCom ruling, but I watched for four months before an administrator took action. Administrators should do something about users being aggressive and abusive, rather than recommend bans for people who get upset by the abuse and become disruptive. Gordon is not abusive and aggressive the way Calton is; he just has enormous difficulties letting go, moving on gracefully, letting someone else have the last word. He hasn't been posting at the Terri Schiavo talk pages recently; he's just arguing with everyone here. I wish he wouldn't, and I agree he's not helping himself, but quite frankly, Calton's behaviour in the last few hours has been rather similar (though aggressive, where Gordon is not), being determined to have the last word, continuing to post on the talk page of someone whom he should leave alone, responding at this noticeboard to a comment that the user had crossed out, going to various talk pages where that user had posted, to leave an angry comment, instead of letting go, and moving on.

To answer TenOfAllTrades, yes Gordon has done some useful editing to the encyclopaedia. Only a very small amount of his article editing is in any way connected with promoting his own links. He has done some good work with correction of typos, fixing format, taking a photo and uploading it with a free licence, to replace a fair use image, sometimes finding and adding valuable information. In general, he doesn't have a record of edit warring. His problem has always been that he kept telling people on the talk page that he had done better than the governor, and had come closer to saving Terri, or that he would give long posts with bible verses, or that he'd write in lots of different colours, as if he wanted to impress his personality on the page. None of that is malicious. None of it is "disruptive" to the extent that FuelWagon (who was banned by the ArbCom) was disruptive on that page, calling other editors (particularly Gordon) assholes, and telling them to fuck off.

With regard to Gordon's block log, one block was a completely inappropriate, abusive block (by an admin who was subsequently desysopped by Jimbo for other abusive blocks) of one second, for constantly telling people that he had never been blocked. The other was not for any violation of policy. As far as I remember, the editors at the Terri Schiavo talk page (including myself) made a voluntary agreement to be blocked if they posted (not reverted) more than three times a day on the talk page. Gordon forgot, and was blocked, which he accepted.

For sorting out this mess, I would say that first Calton needs to realize that treating others with respect does not cease to be obligatory just because you may regard someone as a problem user. Second, Gordon and Calton both need to be able to walk away without insisting on having the last word. Third, Gordon seems to understand that we're not going to allow those links, and he isn't edit warring over it. Some of the trouble could have been avoided if Calton, in removing the links, had refrained from making false accusations, and had then refrained from accusing him of lying, and calling him Gordy-boy. If this project of collaborating in building a free encyclopaedia is to work, we really do need to avoid unkindness. Musical Linguist 03:48, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

There is little to add to ML's extensive comments above; she understands Gordon as an editor as well as anyone. I deliberately stopped editing Terri Schiavo almost a year ago because of the drain on time; while frequently befuddled by his massive talk posts, I never felt Gordon acted with malice or the intent to disrupt. (The same cannot be said of all on that page.) On the contrary: I feel he is a genuinely well-meaning editor and I've appreciated many of his heartful posts.

But. Like the friend who talks through the movie, a person may not intend disruption but still be disruptive. We have to consider the fact that the benefits Gordon can potentially bring to TS pages are outweighed by the difficulties of his presence. After browsing the above, I'd also support TS-related editing ban, but absolutely cannot support a community ban. As has been noted, these may be one in the same thing, as Gordon only edits to TS. I'm sorry for that, but there are better things to do than parse the massive talk posts that Gordon's editing creates. Marskell 20:34, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Motion to close

I think we have as much data as we need, and propose that we move towards closure. There seem to me to be four ways forward. Please indicate preferences (e.g. first choice and second choice):

Limit to one post per day on Schiavo-related talk pages

Users endorsing this, sign below

1. First choice. No need to ban him entirely from Schiavo. His edits to the article are not disruptive, and are often helpful, and he seems to accept that his personal links may not be added (although he doesn't agree). His recent disruption on the talk page was at least partly because Calton made a false accusation and was not generous enough to withdraw it, as I have explained above. Musical Linguist 22:49, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

   One small question and a half: The question: What if someone asks me a few questions: Should i not be able to respond? Secondly (Half-question) If I am not as bad a user/editor as, say, Calton, why would anyone in their fair mind fairly endorse more stringent restrictions on the victim -and leave the attacker alone to have less punishment? Eh?--GordonWatts 23:31, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

   You'd answer all of the questions currently raised in a single post or if you are pushed for time, the one you feel is most important - any other questioned raised after that you would answer in the next 24 hour period. You are STILL trying to have the last word on every single post here, STOP, it only evidences what is being said about you. --Fredrick day 23:39, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

   A community ban on Calton has not been discussed, and his behaviour is not more problematic with regard to Terri Schiavo than elsewhere. There is no particular reason to make a motion regarding Calton, as any administrator can block for disruptive personal attacks, and I would be prepared to do so if I see any more of those "revert not-very-bright troll" edit summaries. As regards responding to questions, you can wait until the next day. If an editor really wants an answer, he will probably ask you on your talk page rather than on the article talk page. Musical Linguist 23:47, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

   His recent disruption on the talk page was at least partly because Calton made a false accusation and was not generous enough to withdraw it, as I have explained above. Since it wasn't, you know, actually false, there's nothing to withdrawal. --Calton | Talk 06:22, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

2. First choice. - SVRTVDude ^{(Yell - Toil)} 22:52, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
3. First choice, with the proviso that if there are repeated violations (let's say three violations in any twelve-month period) this will trigger the article and talk page ban described below. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 23:02, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
4. This could work. I'd suggest adding a qualifier that his talk page posts must be relevant to improving the article. I see recent talk page activity that is definitely off-topic. Friday (talk) 23:08, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
5. First choice, with the proviso that any other users described herein as having caused perceived or real trouble (at least Calton, and maybe more users) would have the same restrictions. If you do not endorse this proviso, then obviously, you, as a voting editor, are not being fair -but, rather, kicking a person while they are down (voting on an editor only because he is the subject here) -and that would seem to indicate that you should be placed into the same restrictions you recommend. I would add that this diff highlights PROOF POSITIVE that I am being treated unfairly: Never is a person denied the chance to simply respond to accusations, but this is exactly what many suggest to be done, so a support of this proviso here would correct the unfairness -and this (option with this, or a similar proviso) is, therefore, my first, and only choice.--GordonWatts 23:12, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

   Gordon, have you ever heard the phrase, "When you're in a hole, stop digging"? People aren't trying to deny you a chance to respond—you've done so at length already. Editors who have advised you to stop posting are offering that suggestion for your own good, as your remarks continue to highlight the very problems at which these sanctions are aimed.

   Calton's problem has never been that he's been prone to verbosity to the point that it disrupts talk pages and creates a nuisance, consequently there is no need to limit the amount of posting he does to talk pages. Such a remedy wouldn't make sense, as it wouldn't solve any perceived problem. Several admins have however advised Calton to take a more civil tone, an area where his conduct could stand some improvement. If enforcement action is required on that front, there are admins who will handle it. It is not your problem to deal with.

   Unless and until you understand that the personal dispute between you and Calton is a very tiny facet of the issue before us you are going to continue to have a rough time of it. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 23:44, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

6. Second choice --Fredrick day 23:27, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
7. Second choice. ChazBeckett 00:49, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
8. First choice. Martin | talk • contribs 07:27, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
   

   Although I would prefer it to be a 6000 words per week (net) limit, for everyone. —The preceding unsigned comment about 6,000 words was added by Martin at the same time he added his 'choice'.--GordonWatts 17:20, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

   I've been rather quiet for the past couple of days (with just a few comments), so I hope no one minds I opine here: Martin, your idea seems good -and I'd say you kind of beat me to the punch. Let me explain: If I am prohibited from making 2 or 3 edits, then I would be unable to correct a typo. Also, Frederick seems to think I'd make a super long post if I were limited to one post. While I am usually NOT very talkative, I can understand his (valid and legitimately good) concern: The overall LENGTH of the talk page is problematic, and, ironically, I was commenting on that when I had to use SEVERAL edits (which would have been impossible had I been limited to one edit per day). So, to conclude: I am not taking a jab at ANYONE, but I think that if ANYTHING is done, then an informal limit on the total words per day per person on the talk pages would be appropriate -and, whatever is done must apply to all -or none at all. Respectfully submitted - (and capitol letter yelling notwithstanding) no offense meant.--GordonWatts 17:18, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

   Get this straight Gordon, it's been repeated plenty of times - this has nothing at all to do with others, no limits will be placed on others because of this Community action. If you feel that community action needs to taken against someone - start the process, otherwise stop bring up that red herring. --Fredrick day 19:12, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

   "start the process" I never said that I felt that community action needed to be started against my friend [removed by request, as courtesy – Luna Santin (talk) 11:27, 24 November 2007 (UTC)], for what these two editors ([13] and [14]) think was excessive posting on the talk page. I simply said that I typically post far less than he did, and thus I do not feel that I should be treated worse then him -if the "excessive posting" on talk pages here is my only "crime." Did you actually look to see that this double-standard existed, Fredrick? Because, if you don't address this double standard (a valid issue, not a red herring), then you show unfair actions and bias. Here's the "take home message," Frederick: All was well (small flames had cooled down) when Calton filed this, and for you to continue to press for more action (by your comment above, the one I quoted here) is inappropriate; Sometimes the best thing to do is to do nothing. (Let me clarify: I am very frustrated at your myopic focus on this one editor (me) when other editors post far more than me on talk pages (my "crime"), but I do not wish to offend you; Simply put yourself in my shoes: Would you like it if you were treated any differently? OK, that said, regardless of whether or not I get any discipline, I do not wish to offend you, just speak my peace.--GordonWatts 02:01, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

   Missing the point again, but let's grant, for the sake of argument, that MartinGugino's alleged verbosity is an issue. The numbers, when added up, show as byte counts for Talk page comments as of February 20 on Talk:Terri Schiavo & Talk:Government involvement in the Terri Schiavo case:

   MartinGugino: 24,641 bytes

   GordonWatts: 109,579 bytes

   Not even close.--Calton | Talk 06:17, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

   Looking at only one day is not significant evidence -look at the last several weeks -or hold still.--GordonWatts 06:43, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

9. First choice, good idea. Guy (Help!) 09:35, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
10. First choice. Sarah 00:00, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
11. First choice. rspeer / ???ds? 00:11, 22 February 2007 (UTC) Never mind. I can imagine Gordon leveraging his daily epic incoherent rant on Terry Schiavo, being sure to take up as many words as everyone else in the discussion combined. This would not be good for Wikipedia. rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 09:21, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
12. First choice. Leebo⁸⁶ 11:22, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
13. Third choice - even one post a day like this is too many. MastCell 05:58, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Probation / mentorship

Users endorsing this, sign below

1. Second choice. - SVRTVDude ^{(Yell - Toil)} 22:52, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
2. First choice. Mostly per Musical Linguist above (a shocker!), he's shown some promise and maybe just a little help is all he needs. If it doesn't work, it'll end up at my #2 choice anyway, which is where this is heading regardless of what we choose if things don't work out. --badlydrawnjeff talk 01:34, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
3. Last choice. I'm quite skeptical of this. He's been editing for how long? And we think the problem is a lack of feedback about this editing? This seems unlikely to me. Friday (talk) 15:15, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
4. Third choice. rspeer / ???ds? 00:11, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
5. First choice. As some have said on the first suggestion, this user has shown some good faith edits. However, he's also shown a few acts of WP:OWN and pushing external links which fail WP:EL. If someone could help him keep his edits in check, that would help. --w^{L<speak·check·chill>} 07:55, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Community ban from articles and talk pages related to Terri Schiavo

Users endorsing this, sign below

1. Second choice Guy (Help!) 22:06, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
2. First choice, as long as this includes related talk pages also. Otherwise it's not helpful. Friday (talk) 22:15, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
3. First choice, again with the qualification offered by Friday. --Fredrick day 22:16, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
4. First choice, per Friday. ChazBeckett 00:49, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
5. First choice. I've now added "and talk pages" to the description of this section as it seems to be a significant majority opinion that that is an important part of the solution. Mangojuice^talk 01:03, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
6. First choice, per Friday. One post per day, knowing Gordon, will simply be the same nonsense except all of it packed into one excruciatingly long post. An improvement, but not by much. --Calton | Talk 01:16, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
7. First choice. I think it's best for him to make a clean break and prove himself elsewhere, if he's so inclined. -Hit bull, win steak^(Moo!) 17:28, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

   No offense meant, Bull, but I've been around for many, many edits, and have proven myself as a peaceful (if perseverant) editor, and I am, quite frankly, too old to go around proving myself to no end for people who don't know me. That which you request of others might, itself, be forced upon you; Would you like it if people asked you to put forth much labor for such an unpaid job as having to continually prove yourself? Just curious...--GordonWatts 17:49, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

   Gordon, what's being asked is for some evidence that you're willing to edit in a manner that doesn't result in lengthy discussions about your behavior. I happen to agree that moving away from Schiavo-related articles would be beneficial for you and the project. ChazBeckett 17:59, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

   For one, even in my many thousands of edits, I usually have NO problems of ANY sort (be they about myself or otherwise) "what's being asked is for some evidence..." be careful what you ask for, Chaz, you just might get it. OK: Here's new info no previously submitted: This woman quite succinctly points out that I am not malicious, OK? THESE people on yet a THIRD forum agree (6th post from bottom): "Svaha wrote: <quoted text> I knew Gordon would. Deep down underneath all the crap he's piled on himself he's a nice guy. It surprised me with James. It's good to be surprised:-)". Enough? Why don't we ask about evidence about you? Would you like that? A presumption of guilt on your part here is inappropriate. I am (and you are) innocent until proven guilty. Did I give you the evidence you seek? (I found evidence from THREE forums that I am not a trouble-maker. Is they sufficient?)--GordonWatts 18:06, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

   I don't think the request was for anecdotal evidence from non-Wikipedians. The idea is that you should expand your focus on Wikipedia outside of Terri Schiavo, and I agree that it would be beneficial. The numbers above indicated that you are limited in your Wikipedia experience outside Schiavo articles, and that was what was meant by "prove himself elsewhere" I believe. Leebo⁸⁶ 18:18, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

   I have made many edits to non-Schiavo articles, both here at Wikipedia and elsewhere, fyi. Moreover, I have a real life and real duties (even more-non-Schiavo-related) -I don't expect that I shall edit or post much of anything anywhere anytime soon. So this is much ado about nothing.--GordonWatts 18:27, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

   Well, that didn't go as hoped. Gordon, this is exactly the type of behavior that leads people to support editing restrictions on you. I wrote two sentences in attempt to summarize what I believe this discussion boiled down to and you responded with a whole paragraph of quotes from unrelated messageboards and a quite antagonistic attitude towards me. The point is that your behavior is causing problems here, even if it's completely unintentional. Countless people have tried to offer advice, but your response is usually similar to the one I received. Just try listening to what others are saying instead of immediately crafting a rebuttal. Believe it or not, most people are trying to help you here. In any case, I've said all I have to say. Ignore it if you wish, but please don't respond to it. ChazBeckett 18:33, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

   "responded with a whole paragraph" - excuse me, but it was only 6 lines -only 4 more than you wrote -but that is appropriate -because there are like 4 or 5 editors responding to me; So, since I am in all liklihood responding with less words than are being directed at me (remember: You asked me a question, so I answered), I am not out of order. Also, what difference does it make IF I make a rebuttal? As the accused, I SHOULD be allowed the last word, but I think I'll let you have it -if you want it so badly.--18:44, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

8. First choice. --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 18:13, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
9. Second choice. Please see my reasoning under Community ban. Moreover, any point he had to make about the Schiavo articles has surely been made (many times over) by now. ObiterDicta 18:31, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
10. First choice. Kyle Barbour 22:30, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
11. Second choice. Sarah 00:00, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
12. Second First choice. rspeer / ???ds? 00:11, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
13. Second choice. Leebo⁸⁶ 11:22, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
14. First choice, especially in light of ongoing stuff like this. Although the topic ban should probably be time-limited (e.g. 3-6 months). MastCell 05:55, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

    It's one thing for you to complain about my one 500+ word post here, but did you actually read it? If you claim that my posts are too long, I will not buy your argument -simply for three reasons: #1: In the last 2-3 days, my posts on this page have been only a small portion of the total; #2: In recent times (not just the past few days), I have not edited as much as Martin, and he is not criticised for anything related to editing too much, so I should not be either. #3: Usually, my posts are only a small portion (or at least not disruptive -as shown by the fact that even after over 4,000 edits, I have had no discipline, bans, blocks, or anything (except one minor misunderstanding, and one "spite" block for one-second -as ML explained above). So, based on the facts (length of my posts) and my clean record -and the fact you apparently haven't even educated yourself or read all the posts in question, I don't accept your argument. If you read my posts, then you can comment on them. If I have had no major discipline AT ALL, then any generalisation about labeling/implying I'm a trouble-maker -is absolutely myopicly short-sighted and false.--GordonWatts 06:42, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Community ban

Users endorsing this, sign below

1. Second choice; I see little reason for Arbcom here. Friday (talk) 22:15, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
2. Second choice, per Friday. --Calton | Talk 01:16, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
3. Second choice. I think he's sufficiently disruptive within that particular context that even a moderated degree of interaction with Schiavo-related topics is likely to have a negative effect. If we can't ban him from the topic but leave him free to act elsewhere, we should just politely show him the door. -Hit bull, win steak^(Moo!) 17:28, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
4. Second choice. --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 18:13, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

   I have a dumb question (I'll direct at Jeff, since he's an admin, but anyone can answer it), so please don't get mad -as I don't know the answer: Jeff here voted, yet the policy (at the very top of this page) clearly states that "While comments from all editors are welcome, please note that "voting" won't be taking place, including on proposed community bans" -how do we reconcile these dichotomies? Thanks in advance?--GordonWatts --18:17, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

5. Very reluctant first choice. I was ready to go with the "one post a day" option—but better defined, as Gordon has a tendency to interpret rulings (as this sort of is) and comments rather inventively and to his advantage and to wikilawyer tendentiously. However, then I saw this in his endorsement of the first choice: having caused perceived or real trouble. [emphasis mine] So, despite numerous people telling him his behavior needs correction he still thinks he acts appropriately. This is not a case of an editor who gets carried away on Schiavo-related articles needing to be saved from himself; he thinks that repeatedly posting long multi-coloured rants and repeating points over-and-over again in the face of a consensus against him in an attempt at attaining his goals through attrition is acceptable. I see no reason to let him carry this behaviour to other topics. ObiterDicta 18:28, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

   "posting long multi-coloured rants" I'm not the only person who posts lengthy posts on occasion, but I usually either post short posts -or none at all in talk. Also, what's with the multi-coloured comment? You can not be prejudiced? Color has its place (and is, therefore, sometimes used), and unless others complain about this point a lot, you are out of order and mostly alone here. "tendency to interpret rulings" You don't read the case here much, attorney: Most of the evidence is that most of my posts have NOTHING to do with my comments on my court petition for Terri Schiavo. PS: No one answered my question to Jeff about the fact we're all voting -even though the rules on this page prohibit such.--18:37, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

   I rest my case. ObiterDicta 18:42, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

6. Second choice. Kyle Barbour 22:30, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
7. Second choice as of now. The way he's continuing to act on this page is a prime example of "exhausting the community's patience". rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 09:21, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

   "The way he's continuing to act..." Could you please be more specific, rspeer / ɹəədsɹ ? You seem to be insulting me, but not specifically telling me what your complaint is. (However, based on your edit summary: "Okay, I can learn from what's staring me in the face: one post per day from Gordon is one too many.)" you seem to be saying I post too much. If you are suggesting I post too much, then I have proof for you here that you are telling a lie, but I wonder if you'll look at the proof -you seem set in your ways. I think you should state your complaint -or else withdraw it. Oh, one more thing: Could you please certify that you've actually read all this page? (Cf: my comments, which do NOT comprise more than half -as elucidated elsewhere -and the comments of others.) When you certify you've carefully read ALL these comments regarding this RfBan, then we'll talk. Until then, I do not feel you are qualified to opine.--GordonWatts 09:30, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

   No. rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 10:46, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Refer to ArbCom

Users endorsing this, sign below

1. Third choice Guy (Help!) 22:06, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
2. Second choice. Mangojuice^talk 01:03, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
3. First choice. There is no consensus of wikipedia editors to do anything in this case. You have under ten people saying he should be restricted to one edit per day on Terry Schiavo. A group this size is not empowered to do anything other than use wikipedia's dispute resolution process. You guys aren't on arbcom. If you want to decide things like this run for arbcom, don't act as if this is a sanctioned all-comers arbcom (just think how biased that could get). Arbcom should also be amenable to Gordon, as it is about as fair as thing gets at wikipedia. Any counter claims can also be evaluated there. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 155.91.28.232 (talk • contribs).
4. Second choice, see above. --badlydrawnjeff talk 01:34, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
5. Third choice. If Gordon's to be let anywhere near the Schiavo articles, restrictions on his behaviour need to be better spelled out than the first choice above, as Gordon has a tendency toward inventive interpretations of decisions and wikilawyering. ArbCom is the best place to craft such restrictions. ObiterDicta 18:38, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
6. Second choice. Usually community bans are for those who have continued to exhaust community patience beyond all other forms of resolution. This looks like a good arbcom case --w^{L<speak·check·chill>} 07:55, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
7. Second choice - agree with User:ObiterDicta. MastCell 05:58, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Auxiliary straw poll

Given that Gordon still hasn't gotten the message (as and persists in this comment from today, ...It seems in these links above that a small consensus [emphasis mine] exists to exclude the materials, and I accept that, but, at the same time, I keep the material under review, and my "vote" as it were, is "include" for every single delete above...), I say that an unambiguous declaration that an actual consensus -- not Gordon's claim of "small consensus" -- is needed. Some of you think he can learn: let's see. --Calton | Talk 06:17, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Calton - there are already too many polls. This is not a productive use of one's time. (I mean just look at this section: MOST of it is by other editors, so when someone claims I post a lot, it is an obvious lie: Here is proof -some numbers for you and my other critics: I just parsed this section (the "Motion to close" and "Auxiliary straw poll" 'voting' section), and what I find is quite enlightening: Even though, by all rights, I should be able to offer the same length of defense as my critics' prosecution, a quick parse of this section shows that, before this edit, there were 3,058 words by other editors, and only 5,225 total, that is, I only wrote 2,167 words in defense to the 3,058 words of the other editors, so I should get 891 more words, but I am not talkative or verbose, and I shall only use these additional comments to defend my point, brining my total only up to 2,300, far below that of the other verbose editors.) People have enough difficulty actually reading the comments posted -it is not necessary to solicit new votes: We've already "voted" above -and, in direct conflict with the Wikipedia policy, which, at the top of this page, clearly states: "While comments from all editors are welcome, please note that "voting" won't be taking place..."--GordonWatts 07:49, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

1. No, the links fail WP:EL, WP:RS, and WP:COI.--Calton | Talk 06:17, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
2. so much for the idea that he's given up on his POV/COI-pushing. Isn't it clear by now that his plan is to keep pushing until editors who oppose his pages have enough and just leave? Can we not just blacklist his free-hosted webpages and kill this one stone dead? --Fredrick day 06:42, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
3. Agree. And blacklisting is a good idea, Fredrick. But keep in mind that he maintains multiple mirrors of the same exact stuff across multiple websites and page hosts. --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 07:56, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
4. This is another example of attempting to wikilawyer around our accepted understandings of voting, consensus, and the policies/guidelines revolving around his external links. Leebo⁸⁶ 11:27, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
5. Yup. The links should not be added, as has been explained to him repeatedly. They should be put on the spam blacklist for good measure. ObiterDicta ( pleadings • errata • appeals ) 17:28, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
6. As much as it pains me to agree with Calton, I have to in this case. Personal websites can not be used as reference. Now, for example if Calton referenced Gordon's websites, that would be OK, but Gordon can't reference his own website. I had the same problem when I referenced my media website for a article. Someone else could reference my site but I couldn't reference it myself. The FL Supreme Court links, I think could stay, but that is a gray area. - SVRTVDude ^{(Yell - Toil)} 20:01, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

   Although I would think that many would disagree that the sites should be linked (no matter who does it), as they are not reliable sources. ObiterDicta ( pleadings • errata • appeals ) 21:37, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

   Also, the idea that someone else could add them worries me, as it could encourage Gordon to continue to lobby for their addition. Leebo⁸⁶ 22:20, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

   Yeah, that's exactly what this was supposed to stop. ObiterDicta ( pleadings • errata • appeals ) 02:37, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

   I completely understand what you all are trying to say....but personal websites shouldn't be allowed. My site is a media news site...kinda different. But no personal (GeoCities, etc) sites should be referenced by anyone. - SVRTVDude ^{(Yell - Toil)} 03:17, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

   "but personal websites shouldn't be allowed. My site is a media news site...kinda different. But no personal (GeoCities, etc) sites should be referenced by anyone" Orange Monster, my friend, just because a website is on Geocities or Members.aol.com does not make it a "personal" or a "news" site; Also, since I address this myth more fully below, I shall not respond here and duplicate myself.--GordonWatts 07:41, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

   Right... it sounded like you were saying that Gordon's (personal) site would be okay if someone else added it to the article. Leebo⁸⁶ 03:26, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

   It did, didn't it? Sorry about that. I rush when I type sometimes:). - SVRTVDude ^{(Yell - Toil)} 20:50, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

7. I support this. Gordon's links to his personal site do not belong in Wikipedia. I'd hope that he can simply respect the consensus against them, but put them on the blacklist if it becomes necessary. rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 21:33, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
8. Blacklisting isn't the answer; what I view as the real problem here is that Gordon is trying to Wikilawyer to continuing a dead discussion, far beyond the community's patience. Mangojuice^talk 03:56, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
9. I agree that Gordon's newspaper and personal sites are not suitable for use as external links or reliable sources. Sarah 04:00, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

   Now, hold on just a second, Sarah: You told me here that "Gordon, if you wish to discuss the validity of using certain links or lobby for policy change, you need to do that in the appropriate forum. Advocating for it and offering it as compromise in the middle of discussion of a proposal to ban you is not the right place. " And, I accepted your proposal here, where I redacted the comments via "strike-out," OK? So, if you wish for me to not discuss this matter here, why do you think it's OK for you to push and persist? To be guilty of a double-standard? (And, you are not the worst offender at all: Look at all the others who signed above advocating the same issue -even though this is NOT the proper forum for it -even as you rightly said.) However, if you all want to discuss the issue, then I shall ask you all one question, and I shall await the answer: If this and this are the only reporters to have reported on something -that really did happen -and CAN be verified by calling Terri Schiavo's parents and asking them, then who should we use as a source? If you say "no one," then you are being a bad historian; if you say "Gordon and Cheryl," then I accept these as more verifiable than Jayson Blair, and he *was* verifiable enough to publish his story; If you say someone else, then I ask who would be the source.--GordonWatts 06:57, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

10. The blacklist is a tool which should probably be employed here, although it doesn't address the underlying problem, which is a failure to recognize and respect consensus. MastCell 06:00, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

This section & related subsections are getting so long, that I'm not going to attempt to reply in the correct places, but I just want to know one thing: Has every single person here actually read each and every post on this page regarding this case? Can you look me in the face and certify honestly that you've read all of my replies? The reason I ask is because if you haven't actually read the advocacy for all sides, then you can't fairly claim you're informed enough to opine or vote with any accuracy. Ten of Trades got onto me recently for occasionally repeating points (I usually try not to repeat myself, but it does sometimes happen). I understand his concern: I should never have to repeat myself, but I find myself confronting editors who state falsehoods (see below where musical Linguist corrected one such falsehood) apparently haven't read the case and facts, and I feel like repeating myself. For example, I've stated that some editors in this discussion act like they know all about me and suggest my main (or only) purpose on Wikipedia is to promote my webpages -and that myth prevailed (due to editors not having enough thoroughness to review the facts) until Musical Linguist correctly pointed out that VERY FEW of my edits have anything at all to do with my webpages. Also, I'd like to know something: If http://GordonWatts.com is my personal page, why do people still refer to http://Members.aol.com/Gww1210 as my personal webpage. This is a newspaper -and whether it meets your criteria for WP:Verifiability or not, the fact remains: This is not a personal website, no matter how many times you say it, and for you to keep saying it implies you are either trying to insult me, continue to push this as an issue, or are simply not willing to be informed. Another thing that annoys me: People are complaining about my supposed verbosity, when my friend Martin posts a lot more on the talk page in question -even though I admit Calton is correct in claiming that occasionally I have posted more than Martin. Oh, and one last thing: Before anyone complains about the length of my post, please note: My posts have been only a SMALL PART of the total posts in the last 2-3 days, OK? Could you please actually READ my post here (and my prior posts) before commenting? Also, please review the last 100 edits or so of mine before this debacle -or else you won't be able to legitimately say you know anything about me.--GordonWatts 06:22, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

so there we have it - many of you are liars and Gordon runs a newspaper that should be included on wikipedia pages - all clear evidence that he can learn from people are saying to him and does not just repeat the same points over and over again. Yes sir. --Fredrick day 10:01, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

"many of you are liars" Perhaps: I concur, I won't mince words - I make a good case for that. "and Gordon runs a newspaper that should be included on wikipedia pages" I must respectfully dissent: While I have my opinions (I do have right to have an opinion), I am not promoting "my" newspaper, rather, if you will look at this post, I am merely offering an opinion on all smaller websites as sources -not mine per se. "repeat the same points over and over again" Well, if you don't want me to repeat myself, then simply read the material the first time -and certify that you've done so, and then we'll talk, but please don't cheat: You're on the honor system here.--GordonWatts 10:11, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Summary

Weighing up the above, it is clear to me that the community mood is that Gordon Watts should not edit Terry Schiavo articles directly, should not link or suggest links to his own sites, and should restrict himself to making a very small number of brief comments to Talk pages, of the order of one per day. If Gordin is not able to abide by this restriction then a ban will be sought, either through community processes or through ArbCom. Guy (Help!) 13:48, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this page.

User:Jonathan ryan indef blocked

This user has been indefinitely blocked for persistent image copyright violations, despite numerous warnings on his talk page over many months asking him to stop. One place that he's been taking images is airliners.net where their material clearly states their images are copyrighted and who the photographer is (usually different people for multiple images). Nonetheless, Jonathan says he's the author of all the images. Most recently, he is strongly suspected of using sock puppets. I have spent the past hour going through his contributions and deleting his recent copyright violations, and spent substantial time back in October doing the same. He has exhausted my (and I think community patience) with his persistent blatant violations of copyright policies. I think this is a pretty clearcut case, but want to note it here in case anyone disagrees with the block. --Aude (talk) 18:55, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Someone purposely violating copyrights like that must not be tolerated. I support this. Mangojuice^talk 03:36, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

• I like to see specific evidence supplied when I decide whether to support a block. If this is verified then I'm on board. Durova^Charge! 03:43, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

See his talk page which is filled with numerous warnings about image copyright violations, which started out as good faith, polite messages [15] [16] explaining what is allowed and not (e.g. taking images from other websites), and other warnings [17]. To see behavior continuing is problematic for Wikipedia. His contributions (vanity issues) to terrorism-related articles are a bit disturbing too [18], but likely false. --Aude (talk) 04:55, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Block this user. Geo. Talk to me 06:53, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

• If there are many violations and the user has been warned, this user should immediately be banned, but not on "community" grounds. And, if you want to put this here, please provide links to evidence. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 155.91.28.232 (talk) 19:37, 20 February 2007 (UTC).

Whether this user is blocked or not, his page displays every hijacker from the September 11 WTC attacks. I would like to move it so people don't see it unexpectedly. BuickCenturyDriver (Honk, odometer) 08:03, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Done. --Aude (talk) 16:54, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Are we supposed to be checking this page periodically?

Gordon told me about the ban discussion going on here. How would one normally find out about it? Martin | talk • contribs 06:54, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

If you're under discussion, here, I should hope you'd either know or quickly be informed. :p Unless you were asking whether you need to check this page to have a "full career" as a "proper" Wikipedian -- for that, my answer would be absolutely not. Anybody is welcome to watch and comment, if they're interested, but it is by no means a requirement. It's similar to the village pump, in that regard -- you never even really need to look at it, but sooner or later a lot of the people who stick around awhile get to glance at it now and then. Entirely your call, in my mind; the community has room for contributors in all sorts of areas. – Luna Santin (talk) 08:42, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I would recommend glancing at this page just like you would AN or AN/I. --Woohookitty^Woohoo! 08:43, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

If you are under discussion here and are not informed, I would say that the discussion is invalid. ✎ Peter M Dodge (Talk to Me) 16:34, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

He's actaully referring to the Gordon Watts situation above. The best way would be to add this page to your watchlist.--Isotope23 16:46, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it necessarily invalidates a discussion, but it sure shows a lack of good-faith if you don't inform someone your having a "community" discussion about them. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 13:55, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

User abusing marking edits as minor?

User:Darkson has been making quite a number of major edits, removing text, inserting new text, etc. to many articles while marking his edits as minor. What is the best way to deal with this? Shrumster 21:23, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

The first step would be to raise your concern directly with him. I don't see any comments on his talk page; have you pointed out the issue to him anywhere else? Newyorkbrad 21:27, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, then if it's serious abuse and it continues after discussion WP:ANI would be the board where you'd report the problem. Best wishes, Durova^Charge! 21:14, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I've informed the guy. Seems like a decent user making edits in good faith. Shrumster 13:10, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

See also Template:Minor. --Quiddity 02:50, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Kurdistan related categories

• Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion
  • #Category:Airlines of Kurdistan and Sub-category Airlines of Iraqi Kurdistan (deleted)
  • #Category:Settlements in Kurdistan (being discussed)
  • #Category:Current governments in Kurdistan (deleted)

I believe the categories fail to meet a set of conventions in a nutshell. Comments? --Cat out 21:46, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Excuse me if I'm being dense, but what does, "a set of conventions in a nutshell" mean? —Elipongo ^{(Talk|contribs)} 02:33, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

As I explained in the linked debate, the current categorization schemes we use on Wikipedia always focuses on political borders. Weather it is a country or a province or some other political sub-division of defined borders. Kurdistan supposed to be a mere geographic region like Europe or Middle East yet we categorize it in a manner parallel to how we categorize countries. See: #Category:Settlements in Kurdistan

Another important convention (WP:NOR, WP:V) is also an issue. This map of Kurdistan has its set of borders, Lieutenant Colonel Ralph Peters' map of Kurdistan has a different set of borders. The point is there is no agreement on what the borders are supposed to be.

--Cat out 02:46, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/WLU-Mystar

This arbitration case has closed and the decision is available at the link above. WLU (talk · contribs) and Mystar (talk · contribs) are prohibited from interacting with each other or commenting on each other, directly or indirectly, on any Wikipedia page, and may be blocked for up to one week for each violation. For the purpose of this remedy, any edit by either WLU or Mystar to one of the articles over which they had previously been in conflict (including, but not limited to, Terry Goodkind and Lupus Erythematosus) shall be considered an interaction with the other party. For the arbitration committee, Thatcher131 12:34, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Possible Posting of Thesis/Term Paper

Hi, not sure if this is the appropriate board but I just recently stumbled upon this article - History of Isabela Province. Checking the history, it seems that the whole thing was put in in one go, and it raised my suspicions. Regarding the formatting and everything, it appears to be some term paper or something of the sort. Could you guys check it over? Oh, and what's our official WP policy on posting possibly-unpublished term papers like this? W:NOR? Shrumster 13:13, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

When a strangely formatted article shows up in one big chunk like this, I tend to worry that it's been copied from another source--in other words, it's a copyright violation. If you do a google search for sentences from the article, you'll find that at least some of the text is copied from other sources (or possibly has been copied by them). The whole article seems to be on www.molinu.org, which I can't reach, but a Google cache is here: [19]. That might be a mirror of the WP article, though, I can't tell what molinu.org is. Have you tried talking to the user who created the article? --Akhilleus (talk) 16:24, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

molinu.org looks like a mirror. It has a link at the bottom of the article to the "full article", which links to Wikipedia. —Centrx→talk • 16:48, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

I've deleted it. This shows that some part of the article was a copy-paste job. Although I can't find the rest, because the bulk of one section is plagiarism, the rest might as well be.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 03:40, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Good Article candidates

Wikipedia:Good article candidates currently has a large backlog that needs involvement from members of all WikiProjects to assist in clearing the nominations that pertain to their topic. Each project's members are better at assessing articles according to the guidelines of their projects. Please assist in passing and failing articles according to the GA criteria. There are instructions on the candidates page if you are new to the task. By helping to remove the backlog, we can continue to improve the quality of our articles within Wikipedia. --Nehrams2020 09:11, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

User removing context

Dcandeto (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is removing context, like the country from Jacksonville Skyway, and claiming that "Wikipedia norm" is to not include it. Please assist. I posted this on Wikipedia:Village pump (assistance) yesterday but it had no response. --NE2 13:34, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

NE2 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is adding unnecessary information where it is not customary to do so. Very few articles, unless they are about placenames (cities, counties, census areas) themselves, include the country if they include the U.S. state or Canadian province. The Wikipedia norm is, in fact, not to include it. Referring to my edits as vandalism is silly and false. dcandeto 16:44, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Where did I say your edits are vandalism? As I said on Talk:Jacksonville Skyway:

It's a standard on Wikipedia. Not everyone lives in the U.S. If it's "especially abnormal for names of places in the United States", it's only because U.S. editors assume everyone knows the names of all 50 states.

Please desist. --NE2 16:48, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, you used the {{vandal}} template. It is absolutely not standard to include the country name if the U.S. state or Canadian province is included. It may not be standard to exclude it, but it's not standard to include it. dcandeto 16:53, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

template:vandal is something I've seen used in many cases to give a convenient set of links, and was not meant to imply that you are a vandal. It certainly is standard to include context; see Wikipedia:Lead section#Establish context. --NE2 16:55, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

The linked article basically says that the proper amount of context is the proper amount of context. It's really vague. dcandeto 17:08, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

NE2: try using {{User6}} instead, it gives a lot of good info links and doesn't carry the connotation of "Vandal", or if you want to use {{vandal}} try "subst'ing" it, so it just has the links. Hope that helps. ++Lar: t/c 17:25, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Or, heck, {{userlinks}}, which is what Template:Vandal redirects to anyway. —Cryptic 17:31, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Myself, I use the {{user}} template, who needs all those extraneous links anyway? As for the inclusion or non-inclusion of countries, I think the both of you should just plain stop. It's really a meaningless argument because the country name should be in the linked to town article anyway. Contrariwise, it certainly doesn't hurt or damage the article in question to put in the country's name. So, in other words, you're both right and you're both wrong. My advice is to step away from the keyboard for a few hours and see the outside world, you'll feel much better for it. —Elipongo ^{(Talk|contribs)} 17:56, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Adding 100+ external links

I've asked after similar cases at the Village Pump and have had only a couple of responses, so I figured I'd bring up the question here this time.

Yesterday Dsp13 (talk · contribs) inserted external links into more than a hundred articles to a site called WorldCat. WorldCat is arguably a useful, non-commercial reference site on various people, however its addition to so many articles tripped off some editors' spam alarms. Dsp13 tried to propose the site as the focus of a Wikiproject, but that seems to have since been deleted.

:That project proposal seems to be back now. —Elipongo ^{(Talk|contribs)} 20:54, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

My own feelings are these. While sites such as these can indeed be useful references, simply slapping up a link without adding anything material to the article bothers me. If I want to find a reference for adding to the article, I can find the link quite easily using Google, it doesn't need to be clogging up the External links section waiting for someone to use it.

I've heard the opinion in other cases that as long as it's a useful link, it should stay. In other cases I've seen all the links labeled as spam and deleted. I'd really like to see if there's a consensus on this issue so I, and others, will know how to react to these incidents. Thanks! —Elipongo ^{(Talk|contribs)} 19:56, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I've already put my own views at Talk:Igor_Stravinsky. To summarise them:

• it would probably be possible for dozens of links to sites to be added to articles on the basis that although they don't support material in the article, they are of indirect use to someone researching the subject. As each one was added, however, it would become progressively more difficult to deny the case for the next. The end result will be a web directory tacked on to the end of the article. That, as I understand it, is the reasoning behind WP:EL, which aims to keep external links to a minimum.
• anyone requiring a listing such as for example library holdings of books on a particular subject will by definition be sufficiently highly motivated to find it anyway.

Just my 2p worth. Stephen Burnett 22:26, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I've dealt with situations nearly identical to this one. The person adding the links may (or may not) be well intentioned but such links almost always are to be avoided. Links are to be kept to the minimum necessary, and should be carefully evaluated regarding their value to the article. Rapid-fire link insertion by someone with no prior history on the article isn't consistent with that. Raymond Arritt 01:30, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

In this particular case, every possible book in a US library will warrant such a link--its the equivalent of a link to the ImDB article for each film, or to PubMed for every disease. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by DGG (talk • contribs) 04:34, 26 February 2007 (UTC).

I've tried to explain my intentions in adding these links at User_talk:Dsp13#Worldcat spam, Talk:Igor Stravinsky, and at the project proposal. Here's my bloated tuppence. My general motivation was to facilitate cross-fertilization between Wikipedia (with over 200,000 biographies) and librarian's records about people (the Library of Congress Name Authority File has millions of person entries, each given a brief MARC description). First, from a reader's point of view, it seems desirable to have an easy way to pass from Wikipedia biographical articles to library holding by/about the individual. Second, from a 'semantic web' point of view, it seems desirable to connect what are in effect the two main publicly accessible anglophone authority files. They don't yet connect very well. As Jakob Voss has put it at Wikimetrics, there are cultural difficulties in encounters between 'semantic web people', 'library people' and 'Wikipedia people': 'they don’t talk to each other or don’t know each other or don’t understand each other'. (WorldCat Identities' links to Wikipedia raised some librarian eyebrows!)

Now, de:wikipedia are ahead of en:wikipedia in this regard: they’ve added over 20,000 external links between biographical entries and the German National Library. (Here's an example.) Why shouldn’t en:wikipedia do something similar? Previously, a technical problem was that the Library of Congress didn’t made it easy to move from their authority file to library holdings: WorldCat Identities, which uses the LC authority file as a backbone (though WorldCat is a union catalog, many member libraries use the LC authority files in cataloging) now makes something like this possible. Of course, different traditions in editorial culture may mean that what de: finds appropriate may never be felt appropriate in en:. Sorry for my own clumsy naivete in adding external links: I appreciate the concerns which editors (especially of major pages) have expressed about external link multiplication. I wonder, in the spirit of considering the experience of others, to know how de: justified their external links.

Shimgray has acutely identified serious problems with WorldCat Identities as it stands: although it’s a beta project, likely to improve, some of these issues may be unavoidable in union catalogs. So I'm also totally persuadable that adding a load of external links to WorldCat Identities is not the best thing to do. How, then, best to cross the divide between wikipedia and libraries as major repositories of biographical information? Dsp13 14:22, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Propose Indefblock of Buzzards39

I am proposing to have Buzzards39 indefinitely blocked for the following reasons:

• Buzzards39 is disclosing identities of user names and locations which is considered harassment in Incident 1,Incident 2, "The other goblin is Paul Drockton, AKA "Mormons 4 Justice", a formers Farmers manager who has been on a jihad against all things Farmers the past several months over a dispute dating back to 2002" and "This guy is from Arlington TX. The same city and state I am live in today".
• Buzzards39 is a Farmers Insurance Agent, " I am an insurance agent who does sell Farmers Insurance products.", yet he continues to edit Farmers_Insurance_Group (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) all sections of it including criticism. He delete criticism and tries to justify it with excuses. I warned him about this but he continues to delete and justify criticism of Farmers Insurance.
• Buzzards39 is Single purpose account which his sole purpose is to keep others from writing negative information about Farmers Insurance, yet at the same time writes positive information about it conribs. He has been warned about editing a single article,"Last, you might enjoy looking up articles to do with other interests -- hobbies, home town, school, outside interests -- and see if any of those look interesting too."
• Lastly he is rude to me then he goes to an administrator and acts like a lost puppy who is a victim.
• Disclosure: I am responsible for most/all of information that is critical of farmers Insurance. Router 17:14, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

• From a summary review of the issue, this is a very inappropriate request. Community bans or indefinite blocks are sanctions of last resort against inveterate troublemakers who have already been the subject of multiple shorter blocks. In this instance, there have been no obviously problematic edits by Buzzards39 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) that I can see and no previous blocks. This page is not the Wikipedia complaints department. It appears you two are in a conflict over article content. To resolve such conflicts, please use the dispute resolution procedure. WP:3O might be a good place to ask for third party input. Sandstein 19:03, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

• • And an editor who does pretty much nothing but post links to gripe sites such as "fuckpaypal" and "farmersinsurancesucks" is in a poor position to suggest another editor is a single-purpose account. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 20:21, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

• Jpgordon should disclose that he was/is a [personally identifiable information removed]. Then conspired with Syrthiss to indefinite block me. With that said I propose a temporary block or severe warning to Buzzards39 for the violations that has and continues to commit. Router 22:46, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Please don't include personal information about other people in your edits. Corvus cornix 23:23, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
    • I've refactored the offending info out. -M^ask 23:42, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
    • That personal information is on jpgordon's user page so I didn't think it was a big deal, but OK. Router 01:32, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
      • Yeah, really. It's not like I try to conceal that I worked at eBay until five years ago. I appreciate the concern, but I make no attempt to conceal my real-life identity. But it remains a fact that Router's sole interest at Wikipedia appears to be to add gripe sites to articles. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 17:38, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
      • Jpgordon, lets not lie now. I have not added a Gripe Site since you and Syrthiss proposed indef block of me, that case is over and done with you do not need to rehash. I learned my lesson. Router 18:42, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
        • I don't like being called a liar. Please, instead, call me badly mistaken; for whatever reason (arrogance, among others), I assumed that you, like others have sometimes done, continued the specific bad behavior I chastised you for. Please accept my apologies. I withdraw from this conversation. I've stricken out the mistaken comments; Router has my permission to edit them away if he wishes . --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 06:51, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

• In regards to the alleged harrasment, I plead "rookie mistake", since the personal info that the honorable Mr. Router refers occured literally on my first or second discussion edit. If it is a big deal, then by all means, remove it. As to my edits, I can only say that I have tried to: 1. Stay within the lines on NPOV, going so far as to solicit admin review of edits that I have made, and 2. Striven for full disclosure as to any possible COI so that Wikipedians may see my work and comments and draw their own conclusions. My humble submission is that Mr. Router has not been quite so transparent about his reasons for interest. When information has been properly sourced, I have left it alone. But I am unrepentant for removing or altering content that is false or misleading, including my latest revisions. I would not want to revoke Routers right to good faith editing, I wish he would accord me the same privelege. Buzzards39 04:23, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose. This request really jumps the gun. The community doesn't ban accounts that haven't even earned a single regular block yet. Read Wikipedia:Disruptive editing and try Wikipedia:Dispute resolution. Durova^Charge! 20:22, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose banning, I don't see anything even close to that level yet. Requesting a ban is not a dispute resolution step. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me Please review me!} 20:32, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

• I also see no reason to support a block, let alone anything like a ban. In fact, Router should learn that on Wikipedia we don't divide articles up into sections depending on the editors' points of view: that's a recipe for disaster in terms of WP:NPOV. This is an editing dispute, and I have seen inappropriate contributions from both sides, but with a little more attention to the article from the community, and some education about Wikipedia, everything should work out fine. Mangojuice^talk 20:54, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose. I completely agree with Durova. This is way too sudden and not a productive means to settle your dispute. As suggested above, there are options at WP:DR to help resolve issues like this. A community ban is not something to place on such an unelevated situation.¤~Persian Poet Gal ^(talk) 21:30, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose. As others have pointed out, you've got to make some good-faith efforts at dispute resolution before even considering a community ban. I'm starting to wonder if this page's header should provide firmer guidance about when community ban discussions are appropriate. We could take the wording from Sandstein's post above: "This page is not the Wikipedia complaints department. Community bans or indefinite blocks are sanctions of last resort against inveterate troublemakers who have already been the subject of multiple shorter blocks." --Akhilleus (talk) 22:44, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

You're absolutely right, Akhilleus, and I've been requesting that from the techies. Should link to WP:DE and outline appropriate circumstances and actions (involved parties don't decide on bans). Durova^Charge! 22:59, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

BLP noticeboard needs some attention

The biographies noticeboard is backlogged at 184 reports, some of which haven't seen action since December last year. It would be good if some experienced editors went that way. Thanks. MER-C 07:48, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

It seems as though many requests just haven't been closed as they should have been. I just closed the two oldest entries easily. Grandmasterka 09:56, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Copy and paste move

Hi, is there a certain procedure, if a user continues to make a copy and paste move (see [20]) although he was pointed out to not to do this (see User_talk:Lawsonrob? Does this come perhaps under vandalism or disruptive edits? Greetings ~~ Phoe _talk 14:00, 27 February 2007 (UTC) ~~

I think you should revert it and give a more stern warning. If he keeps doing it, maybe post something to WP:AN/I rather than here. Leebo⁸⁶ 14:19, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

BLP review requested

Seeking community guidance for my actions at Jesse Lee Peterson: that is, this edit and this edit. My reasons for acting in this manner are given in the edit summary. Moreschi ^{Request a recording?} 18:51, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

You seem to be completely in the right: unsourced accusations of hate speech on biography pages should be removed on sight. –Henning Makholm 18:57, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

For the record, only the first of the two diff links in Moreschi's request were present when I wrote my reply above. –Henning Makholm 19:13, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I just added the second. More of the same, IMO. Moreschi ^{Request a recording?} 19:15, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Unsourced or poorly sourced biased or potentially controversial information must be eradicated without prejudice :) You done good, Moreschi. Bastiq▼e ^demandez 04:03, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I linked reliable source material in my comments on the talk page, but I'll wait to edit the article. I'm not going to add fuel to what appears to be a somewhat breathless edit war on this article.-Robotam 16:08, 28 February 2007 (UTC)