User talk:Futurebird/Archive 5

Race and health

Very interesting and could be considerably expanded. I added some cooments at the talk page of the article.Ultramarine 06:19, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi, I promise to take a look. Glad you liked the infobox. Keep up the good work. All the best. Alun 18:53, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Race health intelligence ...

Check out Jane Elliott. [1]

Jane Elliott told her pupils a pseudo-scientific explanation of how eye colour defined people: blue eyes showed people who were cleverer, quicker, more likely to succeed. They were superior to people with brown eyes, who were described untrustworthy, lazy and stupid1. She then divided the class according to who had brown eyes and who had blue eyes. To ensure clarity of divisions - given that some eye colours might be subject to dispute, she used ribbons to mark out the 'inferior' brown-eyed children (those with clearly different eye colours acted as bystanders). To reinforce the situation, she gave the superior group extra classroom privileges, and would not let the brown-eyed children drink from the same water fountain. She made a point of praising the blue-eyed children, and being more negative to the browns.

Jane Elliott was amazed at the speedy transformation in her class. The superior blue-eyed children became arrogant, and were bossy and unpleasant to their brown-eyed class mates. The brown eyes quickly became cowed and timid, even those that had previously dominated the class.

But what really astounded Jane was the difference academically. Blue-eyed children improved their grades, and managed mathematical and reading tasks that had proved out of their grasp before. Brown-eyed high-flyers stumbled over simple questions. A few days later, Jane Elliott told her class that she had the information about melanin the wrong way round, and swapped the colour superiorities over. The brown-eyed children tore off their now-hated ribbons, and the situations quickly reversed[2]

SecurID 15:55, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

useful link

This is a tailored google scholar search which should give you very many results related to how racism affects [heart] health. Similar searches can be reached by just replacing heart with any other medical term.

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?as_q=racism+heart&num=10&btnG=Search+Scholar&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_occt=any&as_sauthors=&as_publication=&as_ylo=&as_yhi=&as_allsubj=some&as_subj=med&hl=en&lr=

--Urthogie 02:11, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Notification

So that you're aware, you're being discussed on the incident noticeboard, there seems to be some question as to whether your account was compromised. It looks to me more like you accidentally put a message in a template. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me Please review me!} 04:02, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

When using certain template tags on talk pages, don't forget to substitute with text by adding subst: to the template tag. For example, use {{subst:uw-test1}} instead of {{uw-test1}}. This reduces server load and prevents accidental blanking of the template. Jesse Viviano 04:17, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll do that in the future. futurebird 04:55, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

please stop harrassing me

i don't know what your issue is. you reported me for 3rr when i didnt do any such thing. you accused me of being a "puppet" of some guy with a confederate flag on his page. you continue to accuse me of "vandalism" (read what it is, please, paring down superfluous information it is not). i see you are in a group called "debunking whitey" which sounds racist enough, but i have tried to give you the benefit of the doubt here since you seemed to have a good heart and were looking out for the interest of children who might come across articles that hurt their self-esteem. if you want to be consistent in combatting racism, you should question the racists here, not befriend and and collaborate with them. you know who they are and you are one of the few that could make a difference.

as far as cool it doesn't make sense to put in four paragraphs about a single book in the cool article, including two blockquotes in a row. it isnt hard to see the logic in this. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.112.7.212 (talk) 06:50, 5 March 2007 (UTC).

Richard E. Nisbett and racism

Hello Futurebird! Tell me, I noticed that you've edited the Richard E. Nisbett's entry, so you should probably be able to tell the source (I mean, the book or the article) of that statement in Racism (subsection "Racism#Racism in the Middle Ages") — I've reedited a bit the sentence for more clarity:

Richard E. Nisbett has said that the question of racial superiority may go back at least a thousand years,
to the time when the Moors invaded the Iberian peninsula, occupying most of 
Hispania for six centuries, where they founded the advanced civilization of Al-Andalus (711-1492).

Maybe, if you know where he traced that question to Al Andalus (original text said: "Moor invasion of Europe"...), you could add a date, book, and also a little three-words presentation of him (editors on Wiki have a tendency to believe that we all know all famous persons on Earth - if we did, we wouldn't be on Wiki!).

PS: Could you also be able to explain what he meant more precisely? Al-Andalus is kwown for La Convivencia between Jews, Muslims and Christians, not for racial intolerance. I'm thinking about removing this allusion to him if it's not better explained.

PS: I stumbled into that the other day (see 264). If we work a bit on all these articles, me might be able to do as others editors do here: keep a stable version. I wonder why it's not been done before... Best continuations, Tazmaniacs 15:52, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

-- Here is a reference --

Moors described their European foes: Sa-id of Andalusia (1029-1071) wrote the following of his White Iberian opponents:

(T)hey “are nearer animals than men . . . They are by nature unthinking and their manners crude. Their bellies protrude; their color is white and their hair is long. In sharpness and delicacy of spirit and in intellectual perspicacity, they are nil. Ignorance, lack of reasoning power and boorishness are common among them.” (Kitab Tabakat al Umaxn (Blachere K. p. 36. 1935).

You should Bear in mind Richard Nisbette is a psychologist; if you want to know more about history then I suggest reading up on ancient civilizations. In reality, Europeans have been very non-influential on world people (with the exception of the indigenous Americans) until very recently - Just after the Industrial revolution.

Ancient Asian Civilizations, particularly China, viewed Europeans as inferior. And African kingdoms such as Kush and Nubia were far more advanced than virtually all European nations, in their day. The Eurocentric idea of racial superiority is no more than an artifact of relatively recent times. That is, if one looks back in history far enough, before the days of Columbus (especially), one would find Europeans among the most primitive of world peoples.

The Mayan and Aztec civilizations were both far more advanced than European civilization, especially with respect to math and astronomy, as well as agriculture. In fact, one could argue that European travelers had exchanged their own old world diseases (which happened to kill close to 90% of the American indigenous population) for what would amount to an agricultural revolution in Europe. That is, advances in agricultural practices obtained from the indigenous people’s of the Americas ultimately allowed the underhanded Europeans to combat a dire famine occurring back home.

Nearly everything used by the Europeans in those days: guns and gun power, compasses, numerical system, astrology, medical equipment/procedures, paper, Phonetic alphabet and countless other things, were of foreign origin…

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.68.179.142 (talk) 13:57, 4 March 2007 (UTC).

question I asked on your livejournal

"Do you think the area of Race and intelligence" should be researched at all? My personal view is that differences in intelligence occur between groups, but not as a result of genetics, but more to environmental factors such as racism and culture and stereotype threat and prenatal factors. I think its a bad idea to completely ignore IQ tests as not reflecting intelligence for the two following reasons:

• While they sometimes do have cultural bias, the ones most people take today involve basic spacial tests like saying what an object will look like when its turned around, or identifying which object doesn't fit a pattern, etc.
• The correlation between success on IQ tests and success in the workplace/education, even when controlling for education and "race".

My view is that, if practiced scientifically, race and intelligence research will reveal the negative effects of racism and other harmful environmental factors on intelligence... One guy who I think is almost surely a racist is Rushton. What are your views on the utility of researching the subject? Should it be researched at all? If so, how?--Urthogie 03:59, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

What is intelligence? Is intelligence, fundamentally, 1 important thing (Spearman, 1904), 3 things (Sternberg 1988), 7 things (Gardner, 1983), 10 things (Gardner 1999), 120 things (Guildford, 1967), or even 150 or more things (Guilford, 1982)? Nobody has adequately defined the notion of intelligence in any meaningful way, and so to draw conclusion based on the results from paper and pencil tests dealing almost exclusively with language and math skills, such as the IQ test, is not only arbitrary in nature, but is also fundamentally bias.

Robert Sternberg and his colleagues asked the experts to define “intelligence” according to their beliefs. Each of the roughly two dozen definitions produced in each symposium was different. There were some common threads, such as the importance of adaptation to the environment and the ability to learn, but these constructs were not well specified. Further, very few tests measure adaptation to environment and ability to learn; nor do any tests except dynamic tests involving learning at the time of the test measure ability to learn. Traditional tests focus much more on measuring past learning.

Tests of intelligence were originally devised specifically to predict educational achievement. The correlations between IQ scores and both school grades and achievement test scores average about .40 to .50 (school grades are the best predicator of later academic success, not IQ!) but have different ranges for different samples, different tests, and different areas of achievement. The relations may be lower for specific populations. In a sample of 127 students enrolled in a private day school located in a large metropolitan area, the correlations ranged from .11 to .22 with the median of .18 (Novak, Tsushima, & Tsushima, 1991).

In a series of collaborations with Richard Wagner, Wendy Williams, Joseph Horvath and George Forsythe, Robert Sternberg found that tests of practical abilities among adults show virtually no correlation with IQ-like, analytical abilities across domains – “in the case of academics, such things as productivity, citation rates, attendance at professional meetings and quality ratings of institutions which one is teaching.” This finding is particularly interesting, to me, because Sternberg’s tests of practical abilities predict various criteria of job success over and above those obtained from IQ tests.

The prediction is not only for academics. In a study of business executives conducted at the Center of Creative Leadership, Wagner and Sternberg found that the best predictor of performance on two managerial simulations was their own tests of practical intelligence, followed then by conventional IQ-like tests, and then various personality measures (See Stenberg, 2001 -"What should we ask about Intelligence?")."

Hi

User:Pan-ethnic seems to ba a sockpuppet of User:Eoganan and User:Not eoganan, and many other socks who are anonymous IPs. This user created two accounts yesterday inorder to circumvent a permanent ban, and another ban imposed on their sock account Not eoganan. Many of the IPs this user uses are also blocked. but not all. This user is very agressive, very offensive (I have had my user page vandalised five or six times by this user and been called all sorts of offensive names by this guy [3] [4] see here for vandalism by IPs beginning with 69.156...). He is a terrible racist, but calls himself a supporter of "diversity". He pushed his multiregionalist POV constantly and refuses to accept reliable sources that do not support his weird POV. I am informing you because this morning (here it's morning anyway) this user removed some cites of mine from the Recent single-origin hypothesis article for no reason diff, you then added information after this and he continued with his POV pushing subsequently. I have reverted to my last version, and have replaced your contributions as well. I hope I did not leave any of your contributions out. I did not intend to change or modify your edit, so if I have then it was not deliberate. I have informed an admin and WP:AN/I that this si a ban evading user, but they do not seem bothered, I suppose they are waiting to see how it pans out. As I see it he can only do short term damage and is edits will invariably get reverted quickly. Alun 06:39, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Intro

I can edit the intro but I am not sure you are going to like it. I prefer very short and general introductions that leave all controversial material and conclusions to the main text, like in the explanations article.Ultramarine 22:36, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Appreciate it

Hey Futurebird,

Thanks for your supportive comment. I'm spread so thin right now that I'm not sure about the project you mentioned. I'm finding that whenever I strongly object to something I feel duty-bound to take on some new complicated chore. I may put a note on that project talk page saying, "Hey, I've got a copy of this deleted list, if anybody wants to cannibalize it for other lists, feel free." But anyway, thanks! Noroton 00:36, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Response to your message

Hi, I tried. Ultramarine promptly reverted. P0M 00:39, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I think I will stay away from all articles with Race in the title. They, and the people who like to use the word, make me angry. I would rather work on articles such as "The impact of racism on health and health care." P0M 00:43, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Popups reversions

Please don't use popups to revert good faith edits to articles, as you did here. This makes the assumption that the edit you reverted was vandalism, when it wasn't. Discuss the article on the talk page - don't abuse tools to make unilateral moves like that one. Also, bear in mind the three-revert rule - continued reverts may result in a block. --Coredesat 05:27, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I see your point, but this users edits seem hostile to me. I don't understand why they want to hide this data. It's really bizarre. I won't use pop-ups in the future like that, OK? futurebird 05:42, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

It's not hostile, because there was a discussion on the talk page at the time. --Coredesat 05:43, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Latitude and wealth

Hello Futurebird - this is the most interesting article I've seen in a while. I'm going to add some references and nominate it for a DYK. Sincerely, Novickas 22:15, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually, it isn't a new article. It is a cut and paste from [5]. And, since the move hasn't been acknowledged in the history, it is currently breaching the GFDL.--Doc^g 23:09, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

OK, so not a DYK. But the move is mentioned - the history page of Latitude mentions "Latitude and wealth - moving to it's own article". [6] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Novickas (talk • contribs) 00:00, 15 March 2007 (UTC).

Fyi, I sent the article to deletion review, asking that the delete decision be overturned. GFDL problems can be solved by a mention on the talk page. ~ trialsanderrors 22:11, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Race and intelligence

I found your post about this topic quite interesting. The current Wikipedia article seems to take into account ideas such as acting white and the presumption that black people are on average less wealthy than white people to supposedly explain differences in academic achievement, which can be correlated with intelligence. The concepts of, and views on/stereotypes of, race and ethnicity have recently become topics which I find somewhat fascinating. Being a white male from Scotland myself, I find the United States provides an excellent example of a cultural melting pot - it's worth bearing in mind that whites are equally as non-native to the U.S. as blacks. I also have an interest in Pan-European racial difference. --h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 21:00, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Rushton

Why do you keep adding non-criticism to the criticism section? Who has criticised Rushton for being head of the pioneer fund and VDARE and where is the source? Just asserting the fact that he is head of the pioneer fund and has published in VDARE is not a criticism. Saturdayseven 17:09, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Checking in

How are things going with Race and intelligence and linked articles? Are you feeling better about the process? Apropos, these may be useful to you:

• Kathleen McCartney, Monica Harris, Frank Bernieri 1990 "Growing up and Growing Apart: A Developmental Metaanalysis of Twin Studies" Psychological Bulletin Vol 107 pp 226-237
• Eric Turkheimer, Andreana Haley, Mary Waldron, Brian D'Onofrio, and Irving Gottesman (2003) "Socioeconomic Status Modifies Heritability of IQ in Young Children" Psychological Science Vol 14: 623-628 - detail the extent to which family environment and impoverished enviornments contribute substantially to intelligence.

It looks like you are managine fine but if you ever think I may have helpful input let me know, Slrubenstein | Talk 16:27, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

GRODMIN (film)

Futurebird, I have taken an interest in GRODMIN (film) which is under review for deletion, and wanted to get your input as a third-party opinion. I believe the article is of merit,

 and I believe the other users are using poor logic that runs counter to Wikipedia's delection policy. - I'm not a big Wiki-user, but I do support the Arts and I think
 this article has some good merit. -- GrantHyde

Your AMA request

I wanted to ask if you'd be alright with me closing this out. You haven't seemed to need any help for quite a while, and from what I've seen, you got your feet under you very well. Of course, whether it's "officially" closed or not, my door's always open to good editors like you if you need anything! Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 02:26, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

debunking

Thanks! --MalcolmGin 16:41, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

A Little Guidance, Please

A fellow user asked me to lend him a hand with the Nancy Reagan and Ronald Reagan articles, as they were pretty overrun with POV pushing nonsense. Currently this user, someone you tagged as being suspected of sockpuppetry, is working very hard to place a poorly cited, and certainly damaging piece of information into the article. I've reverted it twice, due to the BLP policy on removing damaging info that isn't cited or is non RS. I am not sure how to handle this person, as I am going to run out of reverts right quick, and this guy doesn't seem to be acting in good faith. You know this person better than I. What to do? Arcayne 04:42, 27 March 2007 (UTC)