Template talk:United Kingdom Special Forces
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Proposal to add special operations-capable
[edit]@Dormskirk: I added special operations-capable to this template using "Related" as a group title similar to {{Aust SF}}. I thought that this may be a suitable compromise for {{British Army Special Forces}} that Coldstreamer20 created last month. The British Army Special Forces template has essentially the same information as {{United Kingdom Special Forces}}. It duplicates it and is on several of the same articles. Regards,--Melbguy05 (talk) 19:59, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
- I agree that duplication is not helpful. Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 20:19, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
@Purijj: You reverted my revert of 13tez's edit that had added the Pathfinder Platoon and the Brigade Patrol Troop to the template. Your edit summary was "they are, they have the skillset of such". The Ministry of Defence's command paper released in 2021 Defence in a Competitive Age uses the term special operations-capable forces. The special operations-capable forces are the Ranger Regiment and the Future Commando Force.[1] The United States Marine Corps (USMC) uses the term special operations capable for their Marine Air-Ground Task Force the Marine Expeditionary Unit (MEU). MEU(SOC) is a term used to indicate when Marine Special Operations Forces (MARSOF) have been tasked to operate with a specific MEU.[2] The Pathfinder Platoon and the Brigade Patrol Troop are not special operations-capable forces.--Melbguy05 (talk) 11:30, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
References
- ^
This article incorporates text published under the British Open Government Licence v3.0: Ministry of Defence (March 2021). Defence in a Competitive Age (PDF). London: Ministry of Defence. pp. 12, 46, 68, 69. ISBN 9781528624626. Retrieved 22 January 2022.
- ^ "Policy for Marine Expeditionary Units (MEU) and MEU Expeditionary Units (Special Operations Capable) MEU(SOC)" (PDF). Marine Corps Order 3120.9C. Department of Navy. 4 August 2009. Retrieved 20 April 2022.
"Other SOF" subgroup
[edit]I have added the Pathfinder platoon[1], Brigade Patrol Troop/Surveillance and Reconnisance Squadron[2], and Mountain Leader Training Cadre[3] within a new subgroup "Other SOF" within the "Related" group. This is because, as was correctly pointed out, they aren't termed "special operations capable". This language is used in Defence in a Competitive Age only to refer to the Future Commando Force and Ranger Regiment/ASOB. They are, however, SOF units outside of UKSF - hence why I created this new subgroup. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 13tez (talk • contribs) 20:21, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
- @13tez: Special operations forces (SOF) is a term that is used interchangeably with special forces. Using SOF for these units is the same as labelling them a special forces unit. Do any of the three sources that you have provided state that they are a special forces unit or special operations forces? The Royal Marines article only uses "elite team" and "specialist team". regards--Melbguy05 (talk) 12:54, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
- Hi, thanks for your comment.
- Re: your first point, I agree that "SOF" and "special forces" are generally interchangable. From previous discussion here and here, and edits to List_of_military_special_forces_units#United_Kingdom, however, I think the consensus is that British SOF units that are not part of UKSF should not be termed "special forces". I think this is because doing so can be interpreted to imply they are part of the UKSF directorate, require passing UKSF selection, etc. The "List of military special forces units" article previously included non-UKSF SOF units and that started an edit war, with different people thinking they should or should not be included there. It now only includes units within UKSF (though this became the case after I made the changes to this template IIRC).
- I added the "Other SOF" section because I think the units involved are still relevant to the template (being SOF). At the same time, I also tried to indicate that they fall outside UKSF while doing so, so as to avoid any semantical objections. Maybe there's a clearer name for the subgroup, such as "non-UKSF SOF"?
- Re: your second point, I think my references in the above comment could have been better. I didn't add any to the template itself because there weren't sources for any other units, but if I had I probably would have chosen stronger references than in the comment above, and included quotes. I wanted some quick sources to show my general point.
- Blakeley's book on the Pathfinders does not directly define them as SOF or special forces, as far as I can tell. It does, however, describe their selection course and unique role and level of training, detailing how its akin to and modelled on the SAS in many respects. I think, by definition, this qualifies them as SOF.
- Mountain leaders, found in the MLTC and BPT/SRS, are similar in also having to undergo a long and arduous selection and training process before taking on a ISTAR role that conventional forces cannot fulfill. This is detailed in Boswell's book, though again I can't see any direct description of them being a SOF/special forces unit in there either. 13tez (talk) 18:35, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
- @13tez: My understanding, is that the Pathfinder Platoon and the Brigade Patrol Troop (BTP) are responsible for medium range reconnaissance. I changed the title of the group from "Other Special Operations Forces" to "Reconnaissance units". I may be wrong; I don't believe that the MLTC has an operational role. It is training unit. The BTP was formed from the Mountain and Arctic Warfare Cadre (what is now the MLTC) to provide an operational role. Using SOF will always be confusing as it is used interchangeably with SF. It is for example commonly used in NATO.[4]
- I couldn't find any sources that describe the Maritime Interdiction Flight, 815 Naval Air Squadron as SF / SOF. There is very little information on the flight only a brief mention of "Maritime Counter Terrorism". regards,--Melbguy05 (talk) 03:09, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
- @Melbguy05 thanks for your reply.
- I think that's fairly accurate; both perform reconnisance in wartime in a similar fashion to the SAS/SBS. In the Falklands War, the mountain leaders swapped and took over some patrols from the SAS, a pattern which has continued since, so they are very much comparable with UKSF in this regard. Since they both have arduous and extensive training and selection pipelines and perform missions conventional units cannot, I think they qualify as SOF. I think choosing how to label them is a separate question.
- My understanding is that the BPT was indeed created from the cadre to give them a reconnisance-based operational role.[5][6] There's a lot of overlap between mountain leaders/MLTC/BPT/SRS etc, however, both in individuals being in multiple of those groups and people referring to them interchangably at times, so I'm not sure how and when to draw distinctions between them.
- I agree the SF/SOF debate and semantics are difficult to resolve because, by dictionary definition, the terms are synonymous but the presence of units/organisations called "SF" in the UK and US means there is debate as to whether they are in practice. Some wider consensus may be required here going forward.
- Maritime Counter Terrorism (MCT) is the specialist role of the SBS in UKSF, in the same way as the land-based domestic CT is the role fulfilled by the SAS.[7][8] Different Fleet Air Arm units seem to have assisted in MCT missions in the past, including the CHF[9] and 815 NAS's MCT/MI Flight.[10][11] In a way these units are equivalent to No. 658 Squadron AAC, who assist the SAS with land-based domestic CT. 13tez (talk) 00:43, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
References
- ^ Blakeley, David. Pathfinder : a special forces mission behind enemy lines (Hardback ed.). ISBN 978-1409129028.
- ^ "Commandos launch stealth raid from Royal Navy sub as Arctic training intensifies". www.royalnavy.mod.uk. Retrieved 6 June 2022.
- ^ Boswell, Rodney (2021). Mountain commandos at war in the Falklands : the Royal Marines Mountain and Arctic Warfare Cadre in action during the 1982 conflict. Barnsley. ISBN 978-1526791627.
{{cite book}}
: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (link) - ^ "Army Doctrine Publication (ADP) Land Operations" (PDF). Land Warfare Development Centre. 31 March 2017. p. 7-13. AC 71940. Retrieved 4 September 2022.
- ^ "Elite Royal Marines mountain leaders Arctic training, in pictures". The Telegraph. 2 March 2020. Retrieved 10 September 2022.
In addition to their primary role as Mountain and Cold Weather experts, the Mountain Leaders' operational role is Reconnaissance and Surveillance, capable of operating behind enemy lines
- ^ Ashby, Phil (2002). Unscathed : escape from Sierra Leone. London: Macmillan. p. 54. ISBN 9780333989203.
In 1992 the cadre was finally given a formal operational role and became Brigade Patrol Troop...
- ^ "Special Boat Service | Royal Navy". www.royalnavy.mod.uk. Retrieved 10 September 2022.
the Special Boat Service has been the elite maritime counter-terrorism unit of the Royal Navy
- ^ "Special Boat Service | National Army Museum". www.nam.ac.uk. Retrieved 10 September 2022.
The Special Boat Service (SBS) is Britain's maritime special forces unit. Since the Second World War, its highly trained men have served around the world, on land and at sea, often carrying out daring undercover raids. Today, the SBS leads the United Kingdom's marine counter-terrorism response.
- ^ "Nine-minute rescue – analysis of the recent Royal Navy and special forces operation | Navy Lookout". www.navylookout.com. 28 October 2020.
The 4 aircraft of the Commando Helicopter Force took off from RNAS Yeovilton at around 1545 and arrived at the SBS headquarters in Poole.
- ^ "Special Boat Service Seize 'Hijacked' Tanker in UK Waters". Overt Defense. 25 October 2020. Retrieved 10 September 2022.
Two Royal Navy Wildcats from 815 Naval Air Squadron's dedicated Maritime Counter Terrorism (MCT) Flight, likely carrying the aerial sniper overwatch and command and control elements, and two Royal Navy Merlins from 846 Naval Air Squadron's MCT Flight carrying the assaulters were employed.
- ^ "In focus: the Wildcat multi role helicopter in service with the Royal Navy | Navy Lookout". www.navylookout.com. 4 February 2019. Retrieved 11 September 2022.
The Maritime Interdiction (MI) Flight is also part of 815 NAS – 2 double-manned flights held an exceptionally high readiness to support UK Special Forces. It is available for Counter Narcotics, Counter Piracy and Maritime Counter Terrorism operations. The MI Wildcats may be used to providing top cover or troop insertion/extraction for the Special Boat Service.
misplaced function
[edit]at moment there is a bit of text which seems to be misplaced wiki function, resulting in gibberish under the box:
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- Template-Class military history articles
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- WikiProject United Kingdom articles