Talk:United States Fleet Forces Command

Requested move

U.S. Atlantic Fleet → United States Atlantic Fleet – To parallel the other United States fleet articles by deabbreviating. Caerwine Caer’s whines 01:11, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Survey

• Support, as per my nomination above. Caerwine Caer’s whines 01:12, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
• Support Consistency may be a small virtue, but it is a virtue. Robert A.West (Talk) 15:10, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

• I've moved the page. —Mets501 (talk) 14:17, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

(necro-bump)

• It's been 14 years, but the recent announcement, it looks like this will need to be moved back. If there are no objections here in the next few days, then I'll do it. - wolf 04:14, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

To be Atlantic Fleet again

https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2020/12/02/navy-bringing-back-us-atlantic-fleet/

BlueD954 (talk) 04:27, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Yes, already noted just above and in the article, thanks. - wolf 05:26, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

BlueD954, Thewolfchild thanks for the heads-up. This is surprising. Do note however that the putative plan to recreate First Fleet in (Singapore?) has been severely criticised US Navy Secretary’s proposal met with raised eyebrows from observers, who say the plan is a ‘trial balloon’ that is unlikely to garner immediate regional support -- severe questions as to whether it will go ahead -- and as a last-minute Trump Admin move, the renaming of FFC to Atlantic Fleet once more may also be blocked. Buckshot06 (talk) 10:09, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

@Buckshot06:, yeah, but they're already in Singapore, so who knows...? The FFC rename makes sense, but again (as you pointed out), this is DC, so who knows...? Guess we'll have to wait until the early spring after the transition dust settles. Cheers - wolf 17:41, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Command responsibilities during Second World War

I've just come across this edit by Bermuda-focused editor Aodhdubh. It's a remarkable borderline interpretation of WP:CIVIL and WP:REFERENCES, which does not show this editor up well, but it's also really quite confused about what u:Aodhdubh might mean by "command of the Atlantic," which, no doubt in this case might be expected to mean naval, Navy, vessels, since this is an article about the U.S. Atlantic Fleet.

I've step-by-step stripped out about four references which have nothing whatsoever to do with the paragraph of claims; what remains is a link to a U.S. official war history, which talks about merchant ship control zones, which yes eventually ended up being divided up between Commander-in-Chief, U.S. Atlantic Fleet; United States Tenth Fleet, directly under Admiral King himself, and Commander-in-Chief, Western Approaches, in Liverpool.

But again, this is an article about fleet, warship, naval, forces, and nothing in u:Aodhdubh's references says anything about Royal Navy vessels or commands being placed under U.S. command. This is the first time I've ever heard that SBNO Western Atlantic might have been placed under CINCLANTFLT.

I would really invite u:Aodhdubh to carefully reconsider his claims, and if they're true, reference them. I would also like to remind this user that references should be added when the claim is added, in accordance with WP:BURDEN. cc Thewolfchild. Buckshot06 (talk) 15:49, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

In July 1942, eight months after the United States entered the war, the Commander-in-Chief of the Royal Navy's America and West Indies Station based at Admiralty House, Bermuda had his title changed to Senior British Naval Officer, Western Atlantic, subordinate to the Commander-in-Chief of the United States Atlantic Fleet. USS Augusta visited Bermuda in September, 1941. Problems: (1) this implies that the RN command position in Bermuda was of large significance. At this stage of the war, the Western Atlantic was under Canadian command, and that was definitely not based in Bermuda. (2) The US Navy got involved in activity to protect convoys before the US was in the war. The command and control division of East and West Atlantic was decided on at the Argenta conference (Atlantic Charter) in August 1941 - and the US had neutrality patrols before that. (3) What is the purpose of the mention of the visit by USS Augusta in September 1941? If visits by US warships to the newly acquired base are worthy of inclusion in the article (and I suggest that is excessive detail) why not mention USS Ranger (CV-4), USS Tuscaloosa (CA-37) and other ships (I'm not going to list them all) on 8th April 1941?
You can find this information in, for instance, Samuel Eliot Morison's History of United States Naval Operations in World War II: The Battle of the Atlantic September 1939-May 1943 (pg 83 for the visit of ships on 8th April 1941).ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 17:14, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments, ThoughtIdRetired. I have amended the initial text where I have specific information, but not removed all the problematic material yet. At the core of my concerns is that we so far are being very loose about *what exactly* was under *whose* command. Can you be exactly specific about *what* was under Canadian command, who the Canadian commander was, and reference that exactly? Clicking around, I think you mean then-Commodore Leonard W. Murray's command of the Newfoundland Escort Force under C-in-C., WA. But again, this is the Atlantic Fleet article, and we have to be careful about convoys and escorts etc, and the battle forces - under CINCLANTFLT and Commander-in-Chief, Home Fleet. What do we exactly mean? I have clicked around looking for our material on this Argentia Agreement but not found anything. References would be helpful, unless you mean that the Morrison ref covers everything you write about (thought it was just for the ship visits to Bermuda).

Anyway hope this moves things forward. Buckshot06 (talk) 19:09, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

I should also note that the reference to Augusta visiting, rather than any other ships, probably stems from [1], a page added by u:Aodhdubh. Augusta can be seen in a pic about 25% of the way down the page. Buckshot06 (talk) 19:10, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

Yes, Buckshot06, my comments are less precise than they should have been (in my defence, a meal was ready and I was hungry). The key point in the early history of command during WW2 in the Atlantic hinges around the Argentia agreement. But I am checking the sources that I have to hand and will comment again.ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 19:47, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

Sources and facts are as follows:
Morison (as above), pg 14: January 1939, formation of the Atlantic Squadron. 1 Feb 1941 Admiral King took command of the Atlantic Fleet US Navy. From 1 Nov 1940 to 1 Feb 1941 this force was known as Patrol Force United States Fleet.
pg 18 Royal Canadian Navy worked with the British Admiralty on convoys and escort duty. Command centres were set up in Montreal, Quebec, Halifax, Sydney and St Johns, Newfoundland.
pg 45 Worth noting that, starting 29 January 1941, there were extensive meetings in Washington between US Navy and Army commanders and some British counterparts to discuss US/British co-operation. (Probably excessive detail for the article, but was the foundation for much early naval strategy in the Atlantic. The plan was for the USN to take responsibility for the protection of shipping in the Atlantic and the Royal Navy deal with the Mediterranean. Much of it was only relevant on the US becoming a belligerent.(pg 49). Clearly the way Pearl Harbor turned out, and delays in training and equipping USN ships altered the idea of the USN having charge of all Atlantic naval activity I know Morison deals with this elsewhere, but cannot provide a page number for that right now.)
pg 70 at Argentia conference 10-15 August 1941 Admirals King and Percy Noble (RN) worked out plans for the USN to escort Halifax convoys halfway across the Atlantic and the Royal Navy the other half. Up to this point in time, Morison talks a lot about the "Anglo Canadian period of convoy history".
(In grappling with the command structure in the Atlantic in WW2 I have come across "It would take much time and effort to sort out the now-muddled command and control situation in the Atlantic...." Milner, Marc. Battle of the Atlantic - it's not quite what Milner meant, but tracking who was in charge of what is a challenge.)
Milner, Battle of the Atlantic, chapter 3 In June 1941 the Canadians took responsibility for protecting convoys in the Western half of the Atlantic (Newfoundland Escort Force, Commodore Murray). Also: "The agreement reached at Argentia essentially assigned Canada – a belligerent country – to the strategic care of a neutral state, but no one was going to object to drawing the US deeper into the war."
Looking at all these sources again, it is clear that the USN, with the scale of requirements in the Pacific and, like all navies pre-WW2, woefully short of anti-submarine equipment and skills, had to scale back on Atlantic commitments in the early stages of the war.
Any mention of Bermuda, without detailed mention of the convoys from Halifax (and the feeder convoys to that port) would seem to be a complete imbalance. I don't see how it is relevant at the level at which this article works. My notes above are far more detail than seems right.ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 21:30, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for all your detailed sources and notes, TIR (if I may). So "command of the Atlantic" actually appears to be escort responsibilities, worked out at Argentia 10-15 Aug 1941, and, yes, merchant ship control zones. I suggest we (a) insert that data, specifying escort & control zones with the references that we've uncovered, briefly, as it does relate to the Atlantic Fleet (b) keep the note about C-in-C A&WI being downgraded to SBNO Western Atlantic; (c) remove claim that SBNO Western Atlantic was placed under US control. In reality SBNO Western Atlantic probably coordinated closely with Americans, yes; but always, British commanders' superiors are the Admiralty, unless there's a multinational command structure formally agreed; (d) not clear that any specific mention of Bermuda needs to be retained at all in this article. Ships of all belligerent nations visited other peoples' harbours all the time. Thoughts? Buckshot06 (talk) 06:12, 24 February 2021 (UTC)