Talk:Sophia Getzowa

Tweeted article creation and asked for help to sort out her place of birth

Date and place of birth

According to your Swiss source, she was born in Gomel. This tallies with [1].

I'm aware of sources that say that, but it doesn't jive with either her school records or all the data that shows she lived in various places in the Grodno Region, so I wonder if it is just repeating of erroneous information? SusunW (talk) 19:03, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

The librarian in Switzerland who is helping me is trying to obtain the thesis which Rogger said was dedicated to her parents and sister. Maybe it will give their names and help sort it out. My thinking on the place is that it is likely she gave the school the information at her entrance to the facility, long before she may have had a reason to need to alter it. It jives with the 1905 newspaper clipping that she lived in the western part of Belarus. The southeastern location of Gomel, could be a misunderstanding or Grodno, but also, the Swiss librarian says there was another Russian woman, Sophie Gezowa, who attended school in Bern around the same time, graduating in medicine in 1905 with a thesis titled "Ein klinischer Beitrag zur Frage der feuchten Asepsis", so it seems doubly possible that there could be confusion. SusunW (talk) 14:27, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

Another piece that tallies with her being from the west coast of Belarus is Rogger's statement that her homeland was taken by Poland during the Polish-Soviet War. Poland got western Belarus, Lithuania, etc. Russia got eastern. SusunW (talk) 19:54, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

On the other hand, Ian, your source here says she is from Mogilev. There is a Svislach/Svisloch, in the Mogilev Voblast in the Asipovichy District. This certainly isn't a RS, but it does state that village was part of Poland from 1919-1939.

Still working on this. Thesis was a bust, just says she dedicates the work to her parents and sister, no names. Camelia Boban has reached out to the CCE group in hopes of finding someone in Minsk to solve the conflicts.[2] I have written to Andrei Prokhorov, the Deputy Dean of International Cooperation in the History Faculty at Belarusian State University to see if he can put me in touch with someone to help sort out the difficulties, as well as Niklaus Bütikofer, the University Archivist for the University of Bern. SusunW (talk) 17:30, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

@Ipigott and Gestumblindi: I forwarded to you both the e-mail I received from Niklaus Bütikofer. Progress of a sort, as I think the birth date is now without question (unless she lied). As I do not speak German, can one of you tell me the German text which gives the synopsis of her birth, move to Vilnius and relocation to Gomel in the 1925 CV? I want to insert the direct quote in German in the reference. Thank you. SusunW (talk) 21:53, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

Still need a translator for the Hebrew articles here and here. What happened in 1938 to generate the articles?

Other details from Swiss source

These already seem to be covered in your article.

In 1899, she worked in the Jewish hospital in Pinsk.

While still meetinh Getzowa in Bern, Weizmann wrote love letters to his new girlfriend Vera Katzmann, informing Getzowa on 14 July 1901 that he would not marry her. But in December 1901, in connection with the fifth congress, Weizmann turned up with Katzmann. When Gatzowa saw them together, she fainted. She did not see Weizmann for the next 40 years when she accidentally met him in the street.

Her sister Rebekka died of cancer on 16 April 1902.

Another thing Roggers mentions is that Getzova dedicated her thesis to her parents and sister. I wonder if it actually lists their names? That might help. I don't have access to the actual thesis, only the published article on it, which I've included, but it contains no dedication. SusunW (talk) 19:05, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

Sophie Gezowa vs. Sophia Getzowa

It seems very strange to me that these could have been two different people, both from the Russian Empire and both studying medicine in Bern. It also seems highly unlikely that both should have graduated as doctors. Basic details of "Gezowa"'s dissertation are given here. It does indeed say she was from Minsk (but that might have been where she was living rather than where she was born). In German, Gezowa and Getzowa are pronounced in exactly the same way. Sophie is often used instead of the more Latin sounding Sophia. Sophia Getzowa is frequently referred to as Sophie Getzowa.--Ipigott (talk) 07:57, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

This document lists both Getzowa (Sophia) and Gezowa (Sophie), citing two articles in 1905 from the same source. Gezowa must simply be a spelling mistake.--Ipigott (talk) 12:23, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

I see that here she is mentioned as Sophie: "Hoff war nicht die erste Oberassistentin in Bern. Bereits im Mai 1905 war Sophie Getzowa bei Prof. Hans Strasser als Erste Assistentin im Anatomischen Institut angestellt worden."--Ipigott (talk) 08:14, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

Despite this reference from Einstein, I do not think she used the name Sonia.--Ipigott (talk) 10:21, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

Ipigott Thanks for that analysis. Unfortunately, I have no ability to assess the medical processes (I've asked Emily to look at the material). Somewhere in the letters Weizmann calls her Sonechka, as well. I believe, from having done many articles that the name is a diminutive nickname in Russian. I am also wondering how the article should be titled. Most of the sources which talk about her scientific work (and her publishing) use Getzowa, but almost all of the sources about her Zionism and Weizmann use Getzova or Getsova. Ideas? SusunW (talk) 15:09, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

@Ipigott: It is actually true that they are two different people, as Rogger explicitly points out (p. 232); to quote from Rogger's work: "Zur gleichen Zeit promovierte in Bern eine zweite russische Medizinerin mit dem Namen Sophie Gezowa. Sie lebte ebenfalls eine Zeitlang in Erez-Israel, kehrte aber nach Europa zurück, da sie das Klima nicht vertrug [Mtt. Prof. Gabi Motzkin, Jerusalem]". Translation: "At the same time, another Russian medical scientist named Sophie Gezowa received a degree in Berne. She also lived for some time in Eretz Yisrael, but returned to Europe, as the climate didn't agree with her. [information by Prof. Gabi Motzkin, Jerusalem]". That other Sophie Gezowa's thesis is "Ein klinischer Beitrag zur Frage der feuchten Asepsis"; the thesis of Sophia Getzova (named as "Sophia Getzowa aus Gomel (Russland)" on the title page, I scanned the whole thesis and sent it to SusunW) is titled "Über die Thyreoidea von Kretinen und Idioten". There wouldn't be two totally different medical theses by the same person, I suppose. Gestumblindi (talk) 00:30, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

Gestumblindi: Thanks for looking into this. In my view, the statement you quote makes it even more likely that they are one and the same person as it is beyond the bounds of coincidence that two different people should not only originate in the same country but should be pioneering women students of medicine in Switzerland and should then go on to spend time in Jerusalem. I think this is simply one more instance of confusion causes by the university's listing of dissertations by both "Getzowa" and "Gezowa". Gabriel Motzkin, who did not arrive in Jerusalem until 1982, can hardly be regarded as a reliable source.--Ipigott (talk) 07:59, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

@Ipigott: I beg to differ, mainly because of the two different dissertations/theses. As said before, there is a dissertation "Über die Thyreoidea von Kretinen und Idioten" by "Sophia Getzowa aus Gomel (Russland)", and there is another dissertation "Ein klinischer Beitrag zur Frage der feuchten Asepsis" by "Sophie Gezowa von Minsk (Russland)". Both are "Inaugural-Dissertation zur Erlangung der Doktorwürde vorgelegt der hohen medizinischen Fakultät der Universität Bern". Doctors don't have to submit two dissertations, to the best of my knowledge. As I work in a library in Switzerland, I have quite easy access to both; the former one (Getzowa, Thyreoida) I have currently at hand, and to help resolving the matter, I'm going to order the other one (Gezowa, Asepsis) as well. Should have it in a few days. Gestumblindi (talk) 10:10, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

@Gestumblindi: I looked into this too and concluded it was not at all surprising as she was both at the Insitute of Anatomy (Anatomisches Institut) under Hans Strasser at the Institue of Pathology (Pathalogisches Institut) under Theodor Langhans. Both works are listed here as 3584 and 3585 and both are dated 1905. As a librarian, you might be able to interpret "m. 1 Taf." (or perhaps "m. 1 Tai." as in other listings) and "16 S." And while we're at it, you might be interested in "Gezowa, S.: Über das Rückenmark beim menschl. Tetanus mit und ohne Magnesiumsulfatbehandlung und über Amitosen im zentralen Nervensystem. Z. Path., Frankfurt 21, 366 (1918)."--Ipigott (talk) 11:37, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

@Ipigott: "m. 1 Taf." means "mit 1 Tafel", that is "with one plate [of illustrations]"; "16 S." is short for "16 Seiten", that is, pages. I will report back as soon as I have "Ein klinischer Beitrag zur Frage der feuchten Asepsis". I'm curious about whether this dissertation also contains a dedication, and if yes, to whom... Gestumblindi (talk) 19:02, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

Gestumblindi: Lieber Gestumblindi, Vielen Dank für diese Erklärungen. Ich muß sagen, daß Sie erstaunlich gut Englisch beherrschen - wie so viele andere Schweizer. Ab und zu habe ich gedacht, es wäre vielleicht interessant an der deutschen Version von Wikipedia teilzunehmen. Vor 40/50 Jahren habe ich wirklich fließent Deutsch gesprochen. Leider habe ich jetzt selten die Gelegenheit die Sprache zu üben. Trotzdem kann ich es ohne weiteres lesen - sogar technische Dokumente. Deswegen kommt es mir sehr merkwürdig vor, daß Sie wirklich weiter über Gezowa und Getzowa verzeifelt sind. Ich bin selber überzeugt, daß es sich einfach um Schreibfehler handelt.--Ipigott (talk) 21:19, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

@Ipigott and SusunW: Please find below the title pages of the two theses. Note that both are called an "Inaugural-Dissertation". In the university system of German-speaking countries, the Inaugural-Dissertation completes a course of study, "zur Erlangung der Doktorwürde", as printed on the title pages, that is, "to obtain a doctor's degree". And that's my main reason why I'm still quite convinced that "Sophie Gezowa" from Minsk and "Sophia Getzowa" from Gomel really are two persons. One person wouldn't submit two Inaugural-Dissertationen for a medical doctor's degree of the same university, in the same year - I think that wouldn't be even possible. The "Sophie Gezowa" thesis doesn't contain any dedication. And, Ipigott, you dismissed the information Rogger received from Gabriel Motzkin as unreliable because the latter "did not arrive in Jerusalem until 1982" - but the statement that the other doctor, Sophie Gezowa, returned to Europe for climate reasons (as opposed to Sophia Getzowa, who remained in Israel) is quite specific. Motzkin wouldn't just have made that up, I think - why should he? He must have had a source for that. By the way, thanks for your reply in German, I appreciate it, and your German is very good :-) - but for the benefit of other participants, I think it's better to continue in English. Gestumblindi (talk) 02:53, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

• 
  Doctoral thesis by "Sophie Gezowa of Minsk"
• 
  Doctoral thesis by "Sophia Getzowa from Gomel"

Thank you, Gestumblindi, for going to the trouble of obtaining these two documents. They form an interesting avenue to explore in determining the history. First of all, I think we should remember that Getzowa apparently arrived in Bern to undertake her medical studies in 1895 (although little detail is given in the article and I cannot find much more on the sites I can access on the Internet). We do know, nevertheless, that she was interested in both anatomy and pathology and was closely connected to both Strasser and Langhans. While the publication date of both theses is 1905, we know that at least one of them was completed in 1904 as that was the year when she received her doctorate. In this connection, I have come across an interesting entry from the library of the University of Bern on "Getzowa, Sophie", which gives her date of birth as 23.1.1872 and her place of origin as "Wilna (Russland)" (i.e. Vilnius) rather than Gomel as in the thesis. It should be noted that Gomel is some 500 km from Vilnius. The "Gezova" dissertation gives her place of origin as Minsk. Minsk is only 300 km from Gomel and both are in Belarus. The other thing that strikes me is the difference in the titles. Although I am no expert in the field, it appears to me that "Ein klinisher Beitrag" (A Clinical Contribution) could well cover a secondary contribution to the thesis on the thyreoidea or thyroid. The "clinical contribution" might well have been a dissertation which was written as part of her earlier studies, perhaps even before the death of her sister in 1902. In this connection, it is interesting to note that Getzova and her sister frequently travelled to Pinsk which is some 360 km west of Gomel, 300 km south west of Minsk and 350 km south of Vilnius. It seems to me that if we were to undertake further research on "Gezowa, S", "Getzowa, S.", "Sophie Gezowa", "Sophia Gezowa", "Sophie Getzowa" and their equivalents in Russian, we might find even more variants. But one thing seems to have emerged quite clearly from all this and that is that "Sophia Getzowa" appears to be by far the most common spelling of the name. It should probably be corrected throughout the article. I now realize I was wrong in recommending Getzova as the most probable English transliteration.

This said, it seems to me to be extremely pertinent that the work of the 1908 Swiss Nobel prizewinner Emil Theodor Kocher was also connected to surgery of the thyroid. One of the key aspects he investigated in this connection was aseptic surgery. Kocher also studied medicine at the University of Bern. So it looks to me as if the work undertaken by Getzowa on aseptic surgery was closely related to what she investigated in connection with the thyroid. Perhaps you can look into this further by examining the full texts of the two papers in more detail. For me, though, there seems to be little further doubt that Getzowa and Gezowa were one and the same person.--Ipigott (talk) 11:37, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

The archivist from the University of Bern indicates that our Sophia Getzowa was born 23(10) January 1872 though she gives 2 different versions of where. He states that the other woman was Sophia Gezoff, who studied from 1899 to 1905, was born on 25 November (7 December) 1878 in Nowegradok in the Minsk Gouv. SusunW (talk) 00:59, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

SusunW: The plot thickens! Looks as if there could also be spelling variations here: Sophie/Sophia, Gezoff/Getzoff, not to mention the Hebrew. I don't think it's going to help to pursue this any further.--Ipigott (talk) 08:07, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

True, Ipigott but it really does help to confirm why there is so much confusion. Two women, very similar information. SusunW (talk) 15:46, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

Yes, Susun: I reacted here before reading your email. Things have certainly been clarified now that we know there were two of them. Perhaps the references to Getzowa working on anatomy in Bern should now be reviewed. It looks as if we were not the only ones to be confused.--Ipigott (talk) 15:57, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

I love research, it to me is like a jigsaw puzzle :) Not sure how we correct it Ipigott. It is complicated, as we have nada except Bütikofer's e-mail that says our woman was the second assistant in the institute of pathology while Getzoff was the first assistant in the institute of anatomy. I tried to e-mail Rogger back, but the mail is just returned, so that avenue seems dead. But, I am still trying to find someone in Belarus to help. SusunW (talk) 16:15, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

The gentleman, Reuven Mohr, from the Jewish archives who translated the 1925 CV for me says that she was Strasser's assistant at the Anatomic Institute. So was it the other Getzoff who was the assistant in the Pathology Institute. This begs for an article "The tale of two Sophias" :) SusunW (talk) 21:11, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

Other references

On her medical research: [3], [4]. Note that the latter source says she was from Mogilev. And here is the title page of her thesis. Note that it says she was the Second Assistant in the Pathological Insitute and had earlier been the First Assistant in the Anatomical Institute.--Ipigott (talk) 07:57, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

Getzowa seems to have been the first to describe "solid cell nests". See here. Unfortunately they are not covered in Wikipedia. An article could be based on this source.--Ipigott (talk) 08:31, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

Ipigott This is definitely one of those articles that I take no credit for creating. I am simply the conduit, who became fascinated with her story and have had to rely on you and Yoninah for translations and will need someone with medical ability to help with the discussion of her work. I have read through all the various medical texts, but it is beyond my comprehension. I have only a very vague idea what they are discussing. I sent an e-mail to Keilana to see if she could wade through these an provide a summary of her research, which is discussed here:

• [5] (it uses the spelling Sophie Getzovy or Getzova) and unfortunately is in Czech, BUT, looking at it in text mode, one is able to copy and paste the material into google translate.
• [6] pp 519-525
• [7] pp 301-305
• [8] pp 25-31
• [9] p 504
• [10] pp 803-829
• [11] p 1025
• [12] pp 519-538
• this is odd, as it is an anthropological study. Is it her? [13] p 633

The only other person I know on WP who by reputation has medical knowledge is Jytdog and maybe he would be willing to help? SusunW (talk) 15:29, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

Czech like Latin has declensional noun forms. Getzovy is the genitive of Getzova. CFCF is an expert in anatomy and might be able to help.--Ipigott (talk) 15:44, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

Yay! Thanks Ipigott SusunW (talk) 16:06, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

Interesting! such a career. I will see what I can do. Jytdog (talk) 16:14, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

Thank you Jytdog! SusunW (talk) 16:17, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

Jytdog, I know you've been busy (and I am still trying to figure out her birth information *sigh*) but am wondering if you have had time to look through the sourcing. Totally get if you don't have time, but I really need someone with medical knowledge to help here. If you aren't able to help, can you point me to someone who has expertise in the field? SusunW (talk) 17:58, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

Okay started that page. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 19:36, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

Publications

• 1911: Zur Kenntnis des postbranchialen Körpers und der branchialen Kanälchen des Menschen [14]
• 1933: Pathological changes observed in paralysis of the landry type: A contribution to the histology of neuro‐paralytic accidents complicating antirabic treatment. Jerusalem. S. Getzowa, G. Stuart, K. S. Krikorian [15]
• 1950: On the structure of the human placenta with full-time and immature foetus, living or dead. Jerusalem. S. Getzowa, A. Sadowsky M.D. [16]

--Ipigott (talk) 10:05, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

 Done Thanks Ian, I input them in publications :) SusunW (talk) 17:02, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

Work with Strasser

SusunW: From her own handwritten bio, it looks as if she first worked with Langhans and then as an assistant to Strasser. There could perhaps be interference here with the other Gezoff. But see:

"She started medical studies in Bern and graduated in 1904 with a doctorate titled: Ueber die Thyroidea? von Autisten? und Idioten [really can't read for sure] under late professor Dr.Langhans. After promotion she remained in Bern to further study her findings. 1904-1905 she was an assistant under professor Strasser at the Anatomic Institute in Bern." Maybe some double checking?--Ipigott (talk) 13:07, 7 December 2018 (UTC)