Talk:Robert Rowthorn

Notability

I'm not sure Dr. Rowthorn meets the notability requirements for wikipedia. Please see wp:prof for a discussion of what would make an academic notable enough to warrant a page. This article might need more references, etc. ErikHaugen (talk) 00:05, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Clear Notability

Added more refs - not tidied yet - and removed tag as clear notability.

Full Prof at Cambridge - Criteria for becoming a professor in the UK at government funded institutions for higher education is that there is "sufficient evidence of sustained output of high quality, peer-reviewed research publications or other equally recognised forms of research output, and evidence that they have made a significant contribution to the discipline and earned an international reputation." So has been judged to be notable by Cambridge Uni..

Being a full prof is not enough; again, please see wp:prof - as I understand it, that page represents the consensus of the wikipedia community wrt what subjects should be included. ErikHaugen (talk) 07:09, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Cited already in Wikipedia as a leading British Marxist economist which seems right to me: "Chang's contribution to heterodox economics started while studying under Robert Rowthorn, a leading British Marxist economist,[9] with whom he worked on the elaboration of the theory of industrial policy, a middle-way between central planning and the unrestrained free-market." Ha-Joon Chang

[9] in that quote from Chang's page is a reference written by Rowthorn himself. Sources written by the subject can't really be used to establish notability. ErikHaugen (talk) 07:09, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Even a quick look at google scholar reveals masses of well cited academic work over a substantial period http://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?rlz=1C1CHMI_enGB306GB306&sourceid=chrome&q=bob%20rowthorn&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=ws

Writing papers doesn't imply notability. Even if we were to look at scholar and notice that lots of people cite Dr. Rowthorn, for us to conclude based on that that his "research has made significant impact in their scholarly discipline" would not be enough - that would be synthesis/wp:or. What we need is a reliable source to make this analysis. ErikHaugen (talk) 07:09, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

So more than enough books and publications of sufficient notability - added some - are more needed.

I see some secondary sources that refer to Rowthorn - but I don't think these imply that he is notable. See wp:prof - do these sources assert that he has made significant impact to the field? ErikHaugen (talk) 07:09, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

(Msrasnw (talk) 09:47, 30 January 2010 (UTC))

Is there anything in a wp:reliable secondary source that says his work is particularly impactful? I'm still not convinced he is notable. Thanks for your work on this! ErikHaugen (talk) 07:09, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Oh dear! Are these the kind of references (from major UK newspapers) that will serve your purpose? Including them would seem to make our article less not more like a proper encyclopedia though.

David Aaronovitch: Lies, damned lies | World news | The Observer 26 Jan 2003 ... And on Wednesday, I got my copy of Prospect magazine, carrying a long article by the former Marxist economist, Bob Rowthorn, headlined 'In ... www.guardian.co.uk/.../race.immigrationandpublicservices

We need an honest immigration debate - Telegraph By Bob Rowthorn Published: 2:14PM BST 20 Oct 2007. Immigration is a contentious topic. .... Bob Rowthorn is professor of economics at Cambridge University ... www.telegraph.co.uk/.../We-need-an-honest-immigration-debate.html

Times Higher Education - Global theatre On one side, Hirst, Thompson and Bob Rowthorn, professor of economics at Cambridge University, contend that the extent and effect of globalisation are ... www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/story.asp?storyCode=102178...

Immigration set to increase Britain's population by a third | Mail ... 22 Oct 2007 ... Professor Rowthorn says immigration is currently adding 205000 to the ... plumbers working in West London assembled by the Daily Mail ... www.dailymail.co.uk/.../Immigration-set-increase-Britains-population-third.html - Similar

There is also public reporting of his private life - but I don't see this as being relevant to article http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2000/jul/22/society and more in the Rowbotham autobiography and surrounding reporting of the same.

Best wishes, (Msrasnw (talk) 12:04, 31 January 2010 (UTC)) PS: I am not sure what is wrong with the logic that the University of Cambridge has judged his work to be notable enough to make him a professor and so since we respect Cambridge Uni as an authoritative source that is enough. That is they have been satisfied that they have "sufficient evidence of sustained output of high quality, peer-reviewed research publications or other equally recognised forms of research output, and evidence that they have made a significant contribution to the discipline and earned an international reputation." ?

Thanks for finding these! I'll just respond to this last bit. Have you looked at wp:prof? Do you believe that the title of "professor" at Cambridge means more than it does elsewhere? Perhaps it does, but I guess my answer would be that probably wp:prof means something more by "significant impact in their scholarly discipline" than Cambridge does by "significant contribution to the discipline". If Cambridge gave him the title of "distinguished professor" or something, then there'd be no question of notability per wp:prof. "sustained output of high quality peer-reviewed research" is just what it means to be a competent academic, right? That doesn't imply enough notability to have a wikipedia page. Or at least that is the consensus reflected by wp:prof. Thanks again for all your work here! ErikHaugen (talk) 23:18, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

The person's research has made significant impact in their scholarly discipline, broadly construed, as demonstrated by independent reliable sources. - This is what is needed to become a professor at any UK university! Rowthorn clearly meets this The most typical way of satisfying Criterion 1 is to show that the academic has been an author of highly cited academic work This is clearly true of Rowthorn. I cannot see the source of your doubt? (Msrasnw (talk) 23:31, 31 January 2010 (UTC))

"This is what is needed to become a professor" As I said, "significant" in wp:prof means more than just significant enough to become a professor. That has to be clear, right? Unless "professor" means more in the UK than it does elsewhere? I don't think it does? "This is clearly true of Rowthorn." - if so, great! It wasn't clear to me reading the article, although in the end the "emeritus" and the Susan Strange quote about him being the standard Marxist to read in b school probably means you are right. ErikHaugen (talk) 07:53, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

My understanding is there are different usages for the Title Professor. In the US any academic with tenure or even without who is teaching is often referred to as professor even if the official titles are less common. In UK usage is to reserve if for "only the most senior academic staff" and such academics should have made significant impact in their scholarly discipline, broadly construed, as demonstrated by independent reliable sources. These sources must show that the academic has been an author of highly cited academic work. Anyway perhaps you know best about the current interpretations about wp:prof notability. (Msrasnw (talk) 11:10, 1 February 2010 (UTC))

Yeah, wp:prof makes it pretty clear that having the official title of "professor" is not in itself enough to warrant a page. Right - in the US I can confirm that people might use the word "professor" somewhat liberally, like one might call a med student or nurse "doctor" out of respect and/or ignorance. There's also the title of "associate professor" etc. That's not what I'm talking about here. Even officially having the title of "professor" from a prestigious university does not automatically mean there ought to be a wikipedia page about you. ErikHaugen (talk) 18:08, 1 February 2010 (UTC)