Talk:Oliver Kamm

Primary Sources

Is there a reason somebody has added "primary source needed" to much of this article despite it not being appropriate or used correctly? 92.7.26.190 (talk) 18:30, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

There are six primary source tags. Two are for articles by Kamm and published on his blog. The other four are for articles written by Kamm. All are primary sources for Kamm's own bio. Burrobert (talk) 03:30, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Dubious sources

There is, however, a substantial literature demonstrating that Herman and Peterson "bends, misrepresents, and suppresses facts with abandon" on the Srebrenica genocide, which is the main reason for their dispute with Oliver Kamm, who has strongly criticised Herman and his followers on this issue for many years. The aricles on Identifying reliable sources advise us to guard against using sources outside the mainstream, which MRzine/Monthly Review, a publication with a reputation for defending Chinese Communism/Maoism, certainly is. I am aware that his and Chomsky's "Propaganda model" has a following of sorts outside the political fringe, which is why I described him in the edit summary as a "disreputable figure on immediately relevant issues".

Mondoweiss in many reliable sources is described as an anti-semitic hate site, and one of its founders Philip Weiss has defended the campaigner Gilad Atzmon, a figure who is identified as an anti-semite by mainstream commentators. Reliable sources, we are informed in the IRS policy document as those with editorial oversight, including fact checking, but the article by Theodore Sayeed is riddled with errors. The journalist Bruce Anderson is falsely described as a former editor of The Spectator, while Nick Cohen, David Aaronovitch and Norman Geras are identified as "former Trotskyists". It is true Geras was once a member of the International Marxist Group, effectively defunct since 1982, but Cohen has had no such affiliation, and in fact, Aaaronovitch was once a member of the Communist Party of Great Britain. Aaronovitch's memoir of his Communist family was published recently and has gained much coverage, but Sayeed claims in his MW profile to be a post-graduate biologist resident in London. Yet he makes his error in an article published on 19 February 2016. So much for fact checking from him and Mondoweiss.

The Guardian interview with Chomsky, Sayeed mentions was with Emma Brockes. Marrko Attila Hoare wrote "Chomsky's Genocidal Denial" (reprinted by FrontPage magazine, 23 November 2005) in defence of the accusation that Chomsky defended Diana Johnstone's book Fool's Crusade, and thus aligned himself with genocidal deniers. Sayeed writes as though there was some kind of unfair conspiracy against Chomsky among people then active in HJS, but the evidence is against him.

Kamm was once involved with HJS, but like Marko Attila Hoare severed his connections some years ago. There is actually a shortage of blue chip reliable third-party sources which we can cite mentioning his former involvement, so the notability of this former connection has not been demonstrated. It was mentioned at the end of the couple of articles Kamm himself wrote for The Guardian a decade ago, but those were the main reliable source when I investigated a year or so ago. I removed the former reference on the basis of lack of established notability. Philip Cross (talk) 21:38, 21 February 2016 (UTC)

These arguments don't stand up. Some of them are patently silly. One of your remarks suggests you get your ideas of RS not from WP:RS but from reading extremist weebsites antagonistic to the web sources.

• This page is mainly an exposition of what Kamm thinks, sourced from his blog. There is almost zero input outside of that, and one wonders at this point if Kamm is indeed notable enough to warrant a wiki page.
• You remove a piece by Herman out of distaste for his views, not because he fails RS. His qualifications as professor emeritus of finance at the Wharton School of Business of the University of Pennsylvania. Kamm long worked in finance. Herman is a distinguished professor of the same subject. Their political views are diametrically opposed, but if you are giving full coverage to Kamm's views, you cannot exclude what people of his background, with better credentials, say specifically of him.
• Your removal of their article because it appeared in MR Zine is specious. Because MR Zine publishes material from the Marxist/Socialist perspective does not invalidate it. Otherwise we would censor anything from it written by contributors like:

Tariq Ali, Isabel Allende, G. D. H. Cole, W. E. B. Du Bois, Barbara Ehrenreich, Eric Hobsbawm, Saul Landau, Ralph Miliband, Adrienne Rich, Jean-Paul Sartre, E. P. Thompson, Immanuel Wallerstein, and Raymond Williams.

Your description of Mondoweiss as antisemitic is frankly fatuous,a and only underlines that your judgement is based on distaste nurtured by what you call 'reliable sources'. You'll get many pro-Israeli websites asserting that. You'll get James Wolcott,Robert Wright etc. disagree . Our use of it, selectively, has been raised several times at RS/N and there is no blanket ban. The article in question, by Theodore Sayeed is, you assert, 'riddled with errors.' That means you are engaging in WP:OR, assuming to know more about the sources than Sayeed. Most articles I quote from mainstream sources have verifiable mistakes, in subjects I know about. I do not quote those mistakes, but what Sayeed, with links, says others have written of the Kamm-Chomsky controversy. You are silent on the HJS material, and in any case, it is not your business to adjudicate on whether an article is correct or not. The article is cited for its point of view which, in the article, consists of a summary of what several linked sources state. It is totally irrelevant to say that Hoare and Kamm severed their links with the HJS when the specific material refers to a HJS memo predating their dissociation with that society. Idem with Bruce Anderson, whose description as 'former editor' of The Spectator you charge is 'false' and therefore evidence of Sayeed's unreliability. Bruce Anderson is on that website described as former political editor of The Spectator. Out of a missed adjective you try to make a substantive argument that Anderson never was an editor at that magazine. Tosh, and hairsplitting.

The whole section in any case shouldn't be there because what Kamm has to say about Chomsky is accessible, but Chomsky's reply is not accessible, since only a version on his website exists, not a linked version he wrote for Prospect, and one cannot cite Chomsky's blog version (See Slim Virgin 2007 archives).

Finally, it is patent you are overseeing this page from sympathy for the author's views, and the page is devoid of anything but a selective curriculum of Kamm's views, without notice of external criticism. So it's an extension into Wikipedia of his blog. In looking at Google Book mentions of Kamm, one article by him is cited in several books. Nothing else has been thought noteworthy, and perhaps he himself is not noteworthy. Unless, it can be shown he is significant enough, attracted a sufficiently number of articles about him from secondary and tertiary sources by notable journalists, historians or writers, then this article should be erased as a form of self-advertisement.Nishidani (talk) 13:45, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

Editors cannot use articles which are potentially libellous. One example, which I have mentioned before. The MRzine article claims Kamm altered the former Wikipedia article on Neil Clark to the extent that it had to be deleted. This is untrue. For a long time Clark thought I was Oliver Kamm editing Wikipedia under a false name. In other words, Herman and Peterson did not bother to check Clark's claims, and made an assertion which amounts to defamation. Incidentally, the self-published blog Kamm maintained before his employment at The Time is not notable within the terms used by Wikipedia, but that is what Herman and Peterson wrote about in 2010. Many of the sources disputing the credibility of Mondoweiss and Philip Weiss are accessible from those articles. I suggest they should be read before attempting to defend them.

In fact, I disagree with Oliver Kamm on lots of things, some quite substantial such as the Iraq War and Tony Blair, but that does not mean I favour Wikipedia using bad sources. I also disagree with Kamm's advocacy of deleting this article, see his comments here. His status as a leader writer and columnist for The Times, and numerous articles about his recent book Accidence Will Happen, are sufficient for him to meet the site requirement for notability. Philip Cross (talk) 14:20, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

Actually those who are antagonistic to Herman include at least one supporter of the British Labour Party leader Jeremy Corbyn in the form of George Monbiot. Monbiot is no "extremist", but a man of the left. See his articles Naming the Genocide Deniers (2011) and "See No Evil" (2012), both reprinted from The Guartdian, but with citations absent from the originals. As you say, Herman was a Professor of Finance, but by that logic Holocaust denier Robert Faurisson, a former Professor of French Literature also known for his connection with Chomsky, should be taken seriously too. Obviously untenable. Philip Cross (talk) 14:39, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

• Again, you fail to understand how this place works. What did I cite from those articles that are potentially libels? Herman is in the same financial field as Kamm. Lead writers for the Times ipso facto do not merit wiki articles. A position does not guarantee that, but notability established by peer review of what one does in one's professional capacity. Chomsky is a prof of linguistics with dozens of widely regarded historical works establishing also his claim to be a theoretician of political orders. Faurisson is a French lit prof. with no peer recognition for his stupid opinions. The analogy is stupid. Nishidani (talk) 15:32, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

The Herman and Peterson claim that Chomsky is cited "1,887 times in the 6 years from 2003 to 2009" (previously mentioned in the article) is an obvious falsehood. The claim that The Guardian "misreported" Chomsky is disputed, as I have already commented. Chomsky's political writings are controversial and far from universally admired. He wrote of Faurisson "as far as I can determine, he is a relatively apolitical liberal of some sort". In other words, Chomsky is fallible. Philip Cross (talk) 15:59, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

• Where is your evidence for the claim that 1,857 times is false? Until you have proof, 'obvious' means just 'I am convinced', and what you or I think is irrelevant in terms of Wikipedia article content.
• That the Guardian 'misreported' Chomsky is disputed solely by the Kamms and Aaronovitchs of the blogosphere, who, in the face of two extremely exhaustive reviews of both Chomsky's complaints and the counter complaints of Hoare, Aaronovitch and Kamm, vindicated the gravamen of Chomsky's claim. The Guardian employed both an internal ombudsman (Ian Mayes) and, just to be exhaustive, then had an external ombudsman (John Willis) review the former's handling of the controversy. Both found unanimously in favour of Chomsky, and of the Guardian's decisions regarding their retraction. See John Willis,'External ombudsman report,' The Guardian 25 May 2006.
• Any attempt to harp obdurately on the original blogger spin and challenge this dual extenuatingly meticulous review of the hullabaloo is sheer obsession, which no amount of reasoning can dint. Of course Chomsky is fallible. He foresaw, (unlike the mass of useful idiots who blogged and blurted on behalf of the scam)and it didn't take a genius to see through it, the Potemkin village of the tissue of lies used by the Bush administration to justify the invasion of Iraq, perhaps one of the major trigger events for the ensuing chaos in the Middle East. Kamm, Aaronovitch,Leslie Gelb, Clive James,George Packer, Al Franken, David Remnick, Bill Keller, Michael Ignatieff, Nicholas Kristof, Fareed Zakaria, Michael Walzer, Paul Berman, Thomas Friedman, Kanan Makiya, Christopher Hitchens et al., all blathered in favour. Antagonists love Chomsky because they can make a reasoned objection to some political interpretation aappear speciously dubious because Chomsky endorses it independently, as though he were some wide-eyed paranoid, and not someone who said exactly what the old elite Brent Scowcroft,Zbigniew Brzezinski, James Baker Lawrence Eagleburger and the 6 English dons, experts on Iraq whom Blair ignored after impatiently listening to them for just a half an hour, stated unambiguously.Nishidani (talk) 17:44, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

The proper compromise is to remove the whole section, which I will now do. Nothing there has any interest, other than promoting the idea that the Kamms of this world are taken seriously by people like Chomsky.Nishidani (talk) 17:47, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

I regularly and frequently read Monthly Review, MR Zine, Mondoweiss, Noam Chomsky etc., and in my view, it appears that Philip Cross's arguments above range from extremely weak to largely inaccurate to outright false and/or misleading. (For example, MR editors and contributing writers, from MR's inception in 1947 to date, have written many more articles strongly criticizing the policies of the governments of the so-called "communist" China and the so-called "communist" Soviet Union than they have written in praise of these policies. And the MR authors only praised the policies when the governments' conduct resulted in an improvement in the lives of average workers - they never praised the criminal, vicious, inhumane, anti-human policies e.g. sham trials, torture, imprisonment, hard-labor camps and gulags, mass surveillance of citizens, curtailment of citizens' civil liberties and human rights, etc - in fact the MR authors repeatedly, powerfully criticized and condemned these governmental behaviors).

In my view, it appears Nishidani's arguments above are much more convincing, and much more aligned with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, than Philip Cross's. IjonTichy (talk) 18:03, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

Chomsky, see here, along with others, affirmed: "We regard Diana Johnstone's Fools' Crusade as an outstanding work, dissenting from the mainstream view but doing so by an appeal to fact and reason, in a great tradition." Despite the decision of The Guardian's readers' editor Ian Mayes, Kamm, Aaronovitch, Francis Wheen (missed above) and Marko Attila Hoare (cited above, and a proper historian on the Balkans) were right to challenge the rejection of Emma Brockes' article. The external review by John Willis does not change this. I think the passage on Kamm's writings about Chomsky should stay, but might be better incorporated in to the Opinions section. Philip Cross (talk) 18:43, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

You are again, against wiki policy about what editors do (transcribe what reliable sources state) making a personal judgement about the issues. That's fine on the talk page, but it should not affect our obligation to report what sources say, which is what is happening with your editing here. I have rewritten it according to sources that fit wiki criteria. If you can find anything loose in my paraphrase of what the external editor concluded in his review, please note it here. You do not own the page, and are reverting on the basis of your personal views, with no consensus.Nishidani (talk) 21:18, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

The new additions should be removed. Why does such an extended section on Chomsky versus The Guardian have to be included? Kamm was involved, but in currently extended section of his Wikipedia article it is inappropriate for him to be scarcely mentioned. The intention here seems to be to defend Chomsky, rather than develop an article about Oliver Kamm. Until Kamm and the others complained about Mayes decision over Brockes article, he was not involved at all; it is about about 100 words before he and the others are introduced on this issue. In the current edit, Kamm is supposedly responding in February 2006 to an external adjudication not filed until May 2006. Philip Cross (talk) 22:12, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

This is getting tiresome. You keep either editing out, or saying 'new additions' should be removed. Translation? You sit on the page and try to control its content unilaterally. As it was page was an unwiki farce linking to Kamm's articles on his blog, and with one reference to a controversy with Chomsky. The article header asked for expansion. Looking back at the history, every attempt at expansion has been annulled. The expansion re Chomsky is perfectly normal, see Norman Finkelstein for his clash with Alan Dershowitz, and the Dershowitz page for his disagreements with NF, to give just 2 of hundreds of articles where a dispute between controversialists took place. These things are covered, and Kamm's page cannot be an exceptional. The Guardian, if you read Willis's article spent a full year reviewing this case, in the light of the numerous complaints laid by Kamm and co., and found in Chomsky's favour. If Kamm attacks another person's reputation, it is not enough to have a few snippets, and links, devoid of any informative content. So it stays.Nishidani (talk) 11:31, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

The template at the top of the article asks for expansion of the summary or lede, not the whole article. I have corrected the date problem which I pointed out before. The article's on Dershowitz (55k) and Finkelstein (86k) are several times longer than this one (17k), which makes an off-topic exposition more tolerable in the other articles. The new material about an incident in which Oliver Kamm was only one of three complaints takes up slightly more than 2.5k. Clearly undue weight for a development involving The Guardian and Kamm which has had limited staying power, apart from the wider issue affecting Chomsky's reputation. Philip Cross (talk) 12:23, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

Of course the articles I cited for comparison are longer than this, because unlike this one, editors appear to have experienced no problem in those tweo in writing up controversies. There is nothing undue about this. For once in the blogojournosphere, claims by both parties regarding accurate reportage were evaluated and reevaluated for several months, with meticulous attention to the time line and flow of comments, neutrally sieved, and the verdict was that Kamm and co.,'s objections were not acceptable. If 'limited staying power' is a criterion (where is the policy for that?) then everything these journalists write should be ignored, as froth written to a deadline without the benefit of intelligent oversight and informed retrospective evaluation. An expansion of the lead means, given that leads summarize the sections, that we need in the lead to refer to the controversy with Chomsky, nothing more.As to Kamm being a minor, he was one of a trio, about which a memo has been published saying the trio was enjoined to get at Chomsky. You have refused to accept that, but it is relevant, as I haven't seen any denial of the veracity of that memo, that the HJS was angling for the three to get involved. They coordinated, as one can see by their undersigning of letters. You can't use the fact that Kamm was just one of three to deduce his role was therefore marginal. This kind of objection is not policy based. The material added is perfectly consonant with policy, and the edit made is typical of thousands of uncontested edits made every day on wiki.Nishidani (talk) 13:06, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

"quoting himself selectively"?

Who is the "himself" whom Kamm is accusing Chomsky of quoting selectively? I can't see the source at the moment, but it's not clear if it's a filter, connection problem or if the link is dead. From the context, I get the impression that Kamm is accusing Chomsky of quoting Kamm selectively, but grammatically it looks like Kamm is accusing Chomsky of quoting Chomsky selectively. Is it actually the former? And if so, would I be right in thinking the grammar here needs tweaking. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 07:15, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

In context it means Chomsky quotes himself selectively. Chomsky argued that Kamm quotes him selectively, ignoring or not denying the extensive quotations of material which Chomsky marshaled as evidence for the views he holds. All of this section is crap.Nishidani (talk) 13:48, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

Whose position?

"Because of his position on war and terrorism, the commentator Peter Wilby asserted that Kamm is not actually left-wing at all"

This reads that it is Wilby's position. I suspect the writer meant Kamm's position.

I won't adjust it until I can discover what was actually meant. The ref. seems to have gone from the NS.Cannonmc (talk) 03:25, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for spotting the broken link. Wilby was writing about Kamm. Philip Cross (talk) 09:04, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

Updated link and clarified. Philip Cross (talk) 09:56, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

Advertising?

The article reads like a CV. Keith-264 (talk) 17:47, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

Challenge challenge

Legal Challenge

Neil Clarke, journalist and author, is suing Times blogger Oliver Kamm in the High Court for libel over comments made on his website, in a move understood to mark the first time such legal action has taken place. . The writ is served at the High Court and on the public record. Neil Clarke said on his own website that; "I'm launching a crowd-funded legal action for libel and harassment against Oliver Kamm, The Times newspaper and Rupert Murdoch.

Apparently this was summarily reverted due to no consensus. I add my support to its inclusion because it is cited to a newspaper, is demonstrably true, is significant for Kamm's professional standing and that there is precedent in the article for description of controversy. Keith-264 (talk) 15:40, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

References

Keith-264 (talk) 15:40, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

Keith-264, your addition would seem to violate WP:BLPTALK.

The Guardian article is from 2006, and the case collapsed in the Oxford County Court. This was discussed on this talk page not long afterwards, and there was no follow up article in a reliable source. Oliver Kamm's original blog is still online and offers the best explanation, but the references to another party, Neil Clark, make it inadmissible to cite here. Clark has not contradicted the assertion his action was rejected. The reference to the forthcoming case, which another editor persists in including, counts as WP:PRIMARY and is a means of continuing what is an off-wiki hostility, see WP:BLPCOI, and is inadmissible. The only source for the reference is on Twitter (Clark's account) which has a lukewarm reputation as a citable source, see Wikipedia:External links/Perennial websites#Twitter. Philip Cross (talk) 22:17, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

Given that Neil Clark's case against Kamm is the only thing that makes Kamm in the least bit interesting, either the case should be mentioned or the page deleted. Bougatsa42 (talk) 22:05, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

BLP and 3RR

I have now reverted the contentious passage more than three times within the last 24 hours. Its inclusion has already led to this page being blocked to new or unregistered users for two days, so I feel I have not edited outside established policies. I refer other editors to WP:3RRNO, exemption #7, which would appear to be applicable here, and states: "Removing violations of the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy that contain libelous, biased, unsourced, or poorly sourced contentious material". Philip Cross (talk) 10:17, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

IPs 46.208.188.159 and 46.208.175.215 (who are obviously from the same IP block and are quite possibly the same person) have now been reported as having together broken 3RR, see Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring. I have also raised the issue at Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard as there is an obvious BLP violation in the addition of the contentious material. On both noticeboards, I have mentioned that I might be considered to have broken 3RR myself, but have referred to the exemption I mention above. Philip Cross (talk) 11:10, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

My submissions to the first noticeboard on the two outbreaks of tendentious editing in the last week are now archived at: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive366 for those with an interest. I should point out to those reading in the future, that this article is now semi-protected until 5 June. I updated this article yesterday, adding some three-party sources. Philip Cross (talk) 07:13, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

The BLP/N post I mention above, is now permanently archived at Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard/Archive269#Oliver Kamm. Philip Cross (talk) 06:20, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

Earlier career

Prior to his career in journalism, Kamm worked as Head of Strategic Research for Commerzbank Securities during the time the bank was under investigation for corruption and European Equity Strategist for HSBC Securities. Bambaleo76 (talk) 13:23, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 14:51, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

Edits

This was not a WP article, but somebody's essay about him, picking this column by him or that one to weave a story. That is not what we do here. Like a lot of pundits there are not a lot of sources that just describe him that we can summarize. Hm. Jytdog (talk) 02:06, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

I agree. I have removed a lot of edits on here relating to primary sources; this may be a tad overkill but I think it's one way to partially remedy the issue. --Bangalamania (talk) 21:10, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

Islamphobia

The claim that Oliver Kamm wrote a blog article entitled 'The Islamphobia' Scam" and in it he wrote:

"To that end, I note from Harry's Place that my comrades have been nominated by an absurd lobby calling itself the Islamic Human Rights Commission for an "Islamophobia" award (according to its organisers, "an annual event to acknowledge - through satire, revue and comedy - the worst Islamophobes of the year"). Other nominees in the UK include Tony Blair and Sky News. Sky's citation reads: "For being a prominent vehicle for anti Muslim propaganda, harboring [sic] bias in the [sic] every report and every question asked". I went on Sky News not long ago to debate a man called Asghar Bukhari of another grandiloquently named lobby group, the Muslim Public Affairs Committee, and can confirm that the presenter, Kay Burley, insisted on posing him loaded questions such as "what's your reply to that, Asghar?"

I was mildly surprised that the nominees did not include the political editor of the New Statesman, Martin Bright, for his important work in detailing the remarkably uncritical dialogue going on between the Foreign Office and Islamist groups. So I nominated him myself. I cannot claim to have done anything like the exhaustive work and analysis that he has done on this subject, but if any reader wishes to nominate me and I am successful, you can be sure I'll turn up to collect the award and express my reasons for pride in it."

is correctly sourced (WP:ABOUTSELF) and fits all the criteria for relevancy (WP:ROC). If you do not wish it to appear in the article please quote the exact Wikipedia guidelines that would be breached by including it. Here is a link to the blog https://oliverkamm.typepad.com/blog/2006/10/the_islamophobi.html 83.218.151.178 (talk) 13:34, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

If you wish to discuss this please state whether your objection is that Oliver Kamm didn't write the blog post titled 'The Islamphobia' Scam" and in it he wrote:

"To that end, I note from Harry's Place that my comrades have been nominated by an absurd lobby calling itself the Islamic Human Rights Commission for an "Islamophobia" award (according to its organisers, "an annual event to acknowledge - through satire, revue and comedy - the worst Islamophobes of the year"). Other nominees in the UK include Tony Blair and Sky News. Sky's citation reads: "For being a prominent vehicle for anti Muslim propaganda, harboring [sic] bias in the [sic] every report and every question asked". I went on Sky News not long ago to debate a man called Asghar Bukhari of another grandiloquently named lobby group, the Muslim Public Affairs Committee, and can confirm that the presenter, Kay Burley, insisted on posing him loaded questions such as "what's your reply to that, Asghar?"

I was mildly surprised that the nominees did not include the political editor of the New Statesman, Martin Bright, for his important work in detailing the remarkably uncritical dialogue going on between the Foreign Office and Islamist groups. So I nominated him myself. I cannot claim to have done anything like the exhaustive work and analysis that he has done on this subject, but if any reader wishes to nominate me and I am successful, you can be sure I'll turn up to collect the award and express my reasons for pride in it."

Or if you objection is the subject of this article did write an article titled 'The Islamphobia' Scam" and in it he wrote:

"To that end, I note from Harry's Place that my comrades have been nominated by an absurd lobby calling itself the Islamic Human Rights Commission for an "Islamophobia" award (according to its organisers, "an annual event to acknowledge - through satire, revue and comedy - the worst Islamophobes of the year"). Other nominees in the UK include Tony Blair and Sky News. Sky's citation reads: "For being a prominent vehicle for anti Muslim propaganda, harboring [sic] bias in the [sic] every report and every question asked". I went on Sky News not long ago to debate a man called Asghar Bukhari of another grandiloquently named lobby group, the Muslim Public Affairs Committee, and can confirm that the presenter, Kay Burley, insisted on posing him loaded questions such as "what's your reply to that, Asghar?"

I was mildly surprised that the nominees did not include the political editor of the New Statesman, Martin Bright, for his important work in detailing the remarkably uncritical dialogue going on between the Foreign Office and Islamist groups. So I nominated him myself. I cannot claim to have done anything like the exhaustive work and analysis that he has done on this subject, but if any reader wishes to nominate me and I am successful, you can be sure I'll turn up to collect the award and express my reasons for pride in it."

But the subject of this page writing a page titled 'The Islamphobia' Scam" and in it he wrote:

"To that end, I note from Harry's Place that my comrades have been nominated by an absurd lobby calling itself the Islamic Human Rights Commission for an "Islamophobia" award (according to its organisers, "an annual event to acknowledge - through satire, revue and comedy - the worst Islamophobes of the year"). Other nominees in the UK include Tony Blair and Sky News. Sky's citation reads: "For being a prominent vehicle for anti Muslim propaganda, harboring [sic] bias in the [sic] every report and every question asked". I went on Sky News not long ago to debate a man called Asghar Bukhari of another grandiloquently named lobby group, the Muslim Public Affairs Committee, and can confirm that the presenter, Kay Burley, insisted on posing him loaded questions such as "what's your reply to that, Asghar?"

I was mildly surprised that the nominees did not include the political editor of the New Statesman, Martin Bright, for his important work in detailing the remarkably uncritical dialogue going on between the Foreign Office and Islamist groups. So I nominated him myself. I cannot claim to have done anything like the exhaustive work and analysis that he has done on this subject, but if any reader wishes to nominate me and I am successful, you can be sure I'll turn up to collect the award and express my reasons for pride in it."

is not notable.

Thank you 83.218.151.178 (talk) 14:18, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

Since the original webpage has now been taken down by the author, here is the archived version http://web.archive.org/web/20191128121848/https://oliverkamm.typepad.com/blog/2006/10/the_islamophobi.html 83.218.151.178 (talk) 09:51, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

Some proposed changes

Information to be added or removed: add the line "Kamm has written that he considers Islamophobia to be a 'scam' and in 2006 asked readers of his blog to nominate him for an 'Islamophobia award'."

Explanation of issue: Kamm wrote an article titled "The Islamphobia Scam' in 2016 and asked the readers of his blog to nominate him for an 'Islamophobia award'. This is notable (WP:N) and sourced (see below)

References supporting change: http://web.archive.org/web/20191128121848/https://oliverkamm.typepad.com/blog/2006/10/the_islamophobi.html 83.218.151.178 (talk) 09:55, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

 Not done We need multiple reliable secondary sources discussing this to warrant inclusion. – Thjarkur (talk) 13:30, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

In this case I believe that multiple sources are not required, see WP:BLPSELFPUB. According to the guidelines, multiple sources are not required in cases of 'Using the subject as a self-published source'. If you disagree please remove all the information from this article that only comes from a single piece the subject has written and nowhere else, in order to maintain consistency. 83.218.151.178 (talk) 16:40, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

I've reopened this request as in my view the editors have not give sufficient grounds for denying it 80.47.148.59 (talk) 08:41, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

WP:BLPSELFPUB is mainly for uncontroversial material such as birthdates and occasionally where people grew up. If secondary sources have not taken note of this then we don't include it. Wikipedia does not summarize all the blog posts bloggers have written, we summarize what secondary sources have taken note of. – Thjarkur (talk) 10:30, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

I'm glad to see that we've reached the consensus that Oliver Kamm did write a blog post titled 'The Islamophobia Scam" and asked the readers of his blog to nominate him for an 'Islamophobia award'. but we have agreed that it's not notable that he did so. This is good editing 80.47.148.59 (talk) 02:03, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

As there is a consensus for Kamm writing a blog post titled by him 'The Islamophobia Scam' I will readd it. If you object to that please comment below 80.47.137.128 (talk) 01:04, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Removals

The following claims lack multiple reliable secondary sources and so should be removed from the page

Kamm is the son of translator Anthea Bell and publisher Antony Kamm. (only 1 source)

After Wyggeston Grammar School for Boys, he studied PPE at New College, Oxford (only 1 source)

Kamm joined the Times staff in 2008 (only 1 source)

He has also contributed to The Jewish Chronicle, for which he writes regularly (only 1 source)

Kamm has been a consistent supporter of former British Prime Minister Tony Blair and the foreign policies of his government. (only 1 source)

According to John Lloyd in 2005, Kamm views Blair's policies "as the expression of true social-democratic values". (only 1 source)

He states that he is a friend and admirer of Israel. (only 1 source)

We need multiple reliable secondary sources discussing these to warrant inclusion 83.218.151.178 (talk) 16:45, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

Reply 10-DEC-2019

  Edit request declined  

• The requesting editor has not disclosed having a conflict of interest, which the {{request edit}} template exclusively concerns.
• Nevertheless, the requesting editor is free to continue discussing the article's referencing needs with local editors whether they have a COI or not.

Regards,  Spintendo  18:26, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

References

I've very confused. Are multiple sources required or not? Also if the editor has a conflict of interest why not state what it is here? Also why are you quoting the rule stating not to insert major re-writes when he hasn't? He's using the talk page to request removals are made for claims that don't have multiple secondary sources, which he was just told were required. From what I can see there is a shocking lack of consistency here.

Can I request clarification, with reference to the guidelines, on whether multiple sources are required or not? Currently editors are saying they are both required and not required 80.47.148.59 (talk) 19:22, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

I've reopened this request as in my view the editors have not give sufficient grounds for denying it 80.47.148.59 (talk) 08:41, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

You are welcome to keep discussing the issue, but you don't get to keep adding edit requests because you don't like the answer you got. 331dot (talk) 08:44, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

Please reference the guideline that says you can deny edits without sufficient reason and refuse to give your reasons. Thank you 83.218.151.178 (talk) 10:00, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

That you personally do not find the explanation sufficient does not mean that it isn't. You cannot forum shop and keep asking until you get the answer you want to hear. Per that page, "Raising essentially the same issue on multiple noticeboards and talk pages, or to multiple administrators or reviewers, or any one of these repetitively, is unhelpful to finding and achieving consensus.". 331dot (talk) 12:42, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

I don't think that uncontroversial statements like the ones listed here require multiple RS. Bellowhead678 (talk) 17:06, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

Can I request clarification, with reference to the guidelines, on whether multiple sources are required or not? Currently editors are saying they are both required and not required 83.218.151.178 (talk) 11:32, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

Since we've not had clarification I'm going to assume a consensus has been reached and in 10 days I'll be readding it 80.47.148.59 (talk) 11:29, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

Geert Wilders

Please add the line "Oliver Kamm is a supporter of Dutch Politician Geert Wilders". Here is an article he wrote titled 'Wilders must be supported' https://www.indexoncensorship.org/2010/10/wilders-must-be-supported/ which should be a sufficient source. If this is denied due to there not being multiple sources please quote the wikipedia guidelines that say every claim requires multiple sources and delete all the claims on this page that do not have multiple sources. Thank you 83.218.151.178 (talk) 09:55, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

That's not what his article says, it says Kamm opposes prosecution of Wilders for expressing his view. – Thjarkur (talk) 10:32, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

Why not add a bit about how he wrote an article opposing Wilders being prosecuted for expressing his views that Islam and Nazism are comparable? 83.218.151.178 (talk) 11:19, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

I assume the consensus is as above since nobody objects 80.47.148.59 (talk) 11:30, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

Blog

Does anyone know why Oliver deleted all his blog posts after they were brought up here? 83.218.151.178 (talk) 11:32, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

Anyone? It's not like he wrote anything embarrassing like "I'm an antiSemite" or "I'm a Islamophobe" in them" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.47.148.59 (talk) 02:07, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

Controversy Section - Libel Case

I see from prior discussions here that reference to Kamm's long standing dispute with journalist Neil Clark has been added & removed on numerous occasions. As the case is now settled & Kamm has effectively retracted many of the allegations he made against Clark, including calling him a racist, a genocide denier & an anti-immigration campaigner, would it be appropriate to include that information now?

The source is a statement from Kamm which he tweeted on 20 March 2020.

https://twitter.com/OliverKamm/status/1241138003780800512 — Preceding unsigned comment added by DeltaSnowQueen (talk • contribs) 12:25, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

Whoops! Sorry! I forgot to sign my edit. I'm learning........ --DeltaSnowQueen (talk) 12:33, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

Biased sources

Middle East Monitor is not an unbiased source - in fact, quite the opposite - it is extremely biased and anti-Israel. The article cited contains nothing but anti-Kamm quotes, and so cannot in any way be construed as neutral (which is what Wikipedia sources are supposed to be, to my understanding). I suspect the user who restored that source after I deleted it is highly biased themselves. - 980throwawy (talk • contribs) 16:22, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

Being biased does not by itself preclude the use of a source, as all people and sources have biases. If it is so biased that it should not be considered a reliable source, with fact checking and editorial control, please obtain a consensus for that at the reliable sources noticeboard. 331dot (talk) 17:40, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

Philip Cross

Is there a reason the Philip Cross controversy that follows him is not mentioned?

It's been covered by the BBC and indeed written about by Oliver himself. Jimjom (talk) 13:56, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Which BBC article are you referring to? I can't see one that mentions Kamm. Bellowhead678 (talk) 18:41, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

He references the controversy himself as one of his bigger scandals, id say it warrants inclusion? Jimjom (talk) 06:59, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

"Oliver Kamm/Archive 1" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Oliver Kamm/Archive 1 and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 December 30 § Oliver Kamm/Archive 1 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Regards, SONIC⁶⁷⁸ 06:26, 30 December 2022 (UTC)