Talk:Mickey Rooney/GA1

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

GA Review

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Reviewer: SNUGGUMS (talk · contribs) 00:24, 24 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'll take this. Expect initial comments within one or two weeks. Snuggums (talk / edits) 00:24, 24 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Let's start with the infobox and lead.....

Infobox

The "nationality" field tends not to be used unless a subject has multiple citizenships, which wasn't the case with Rooney

Fixed --Light show (talk) 22:04, 1 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Did he graduate from Hollywood Professional School? If not, I'd remove from the "education" field.

Fixed --Light show (talk) 22:04, 1 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

To be honest, it makes no sense to name some of his children in the infobox but not others (even if they don't have articles). It would be better to name them all or to just give a number.

Fixed --Light show (talk) 22:04, 1 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Lead

"was an American actor of film, television, Broadway, radio, and vaudeville" is a bit much; I'd simply go with "was an American actor"

Fixed --Light show (talk) 22:24, 1 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"the role of" is redundant for "played the role of Andy Hardy"

Fixed --Light show (talk) 22:24, 1 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"A versatile performer, he could sing, dance, clown, and play various musical instruments, becoming a celebrated character actor later in his career" seems rather promotional, or at least the "he could sing, dance, clown, and play various musical instruments" part does

Fixed --Light show (talk) 22:24, 1 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"he played the role of Puck"..... see my previous comments

Fixed --Light show (talk) 22:24, 1 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"His performance was hailed by critic David Thomson as"..... it would be better to use active voice "David Thomson hailed his performance as"

Fixed --Light show (talk) 22:24, 1 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"he co-starred with Spencer Tracy in the Academy Award-winning film Boys Town"..... Tracy is probably better for article body (if anywhere), and calling this "Academy Award-winning" wouldn't really belong here unless Rooney won an Oscar for performing, scripting, producing, directing, etc. in this

Fixed --Light show (talk) 22:24, 1 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see how "co-starred alongside Judy Garland, Wallace Beery, Spencer Tracy, and Elizabeth Taylor" is lead-worthy, though it can certainly be discussed within article body

Fixed --Light show (talk) 22:24, 1 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"was not able to obtain acting roles as significant as before" reads awkwardly, maybe try "could not gain as many prominent roles" or "could not gain as many starring roles"

Fixed --Light show (talk) 22:24, 1 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"Rooney was tenacious and he rebounded" seems to already be implied when you next say "his popularity renewed"

Fixed --Light show (talk) 22:24, 1 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"for which he was nominated for an Oscar"..... was this for The Black Stallion? If including this in the lead (though I personally would for the most part recommend just focusing on wins when discussing accolades to avoid overfocusing on the matter), it would help to more clearly indicate so

Fixed --Light show (talk) 22:24, 1 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"he received four Academy Award nominations and was nominated for five Emmy Awards, winning one"..... same as before; best to just go with the one Emmy win, and I'd state what he won that for

Fixed --Light show (talk) 22:24, 1 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Golden Globe wins are definitely worth adding here

Fixed --Light show (talk) 22:24, 1 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'll be back with more later on..... Snuggums (talk / edits) 04:37, 1 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Early life

Joe Yule's birth name isn't really relevant here and would be better for that article, and I'm not so sure it's beneficial to add parents' birth/death years here

Fixed --Light show (talk) 22:45, 1 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Instead of "another account", I would include specific names; this is more informative

Fixed --Light show (talk) 22:45, 1 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"His mother was a former chorus girl and a burlesque performer"..... The Hollywood Reporter states "the only child of a poor chorus girl and burlesque performer who split up when he was 4", suggesting that Nellie was just a chorus girl while Joe Sr. was the burlesque performer

Fixed --Light show (talk) 22:45, 1 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Except for the schools attended, none of the content in the second paragraph is supported by the given citations; this is a major concern

Fixed --Light show (talk) 22:45, 1 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

More to come..... Snuggums (talk / edits) 04:21, 3 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Career

Mickey McGuire

Having lots of short paragraphs in this section makes the text look choppy, so I'd merge some of them

Fixed --Light show (talk) 23:35, 1 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"The Yules separated in 1924 during a slump in vaudeville when Rooney was 4 years old" is too much, just go with "The Yules separated when Rooney was 4 years old"

Fixed --Light show (talk) 23:35, 1 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"but his breakthrough film role came a year later" is unsourced, and is this referring to Mickey's Circus?

Fixed --Light show (talk) 23:35, 1 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"became 'Mickey' for 78 of the comedies, running from 1927 to 1936, starting with Mickey's Circus, his first starring role, released September 4, 1927"..... the exact release date of Mickey's Cirus isn't in the given citation, and it also doesn't even mention the year 1936

Investigating... --Light show (talk) 23:35, 1 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"trump an attempted copyright lawsuit (if it was his legal name, the film producer Larry Darmour did not owe the comic strip writers royalties)" could probably be reduced to "trump an attempted copyright lawsuit so the film producer Larry Darmour would not have to pay the comic strip writers royalties)"

Fixed --Light show (talk) 23:35, 1 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"In 1930 Mrs. Yule sought to change her name to McGuire, 'because Joe Yule Jr., her son, plays 'Mickey' in pictures and consequently her friends all know her by his screen name.'" is redundant when it's already noted that she changed her name for the copyright lawsuit ordeal

Fixed --Light show (talk) 23:35, 1 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'll follow up with more in the future, though am a bit concerned with this recent tag Snuggums (talk / edits) 23:36, 5 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

OK, turns out that tag was just a drive-by placement. Anyway, continuing.....

Andy Hardy, Boys Town and Hollywood stardom

While "Andy Hardy" is the name of a character, something tells me this should be italicized in the section title when it refers to the films of the same name

Fixed --Light show (talk) 00:23, 2 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"Rooney provided comic relief as the son of Judge James K. Hardy, portrayed by Lionel Barrymore (although Lewis Stone would play the role of Judge Hardy in subsequent films). The film was an unexpected success, and led to 13 more Andy Hardy films between 1937 and 1946, and a final film in 1958." is missing a citation

Pending --Light show (talk) 00:23, 2 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"was in fact very much" is rather wordy; try "was similar to" or "acted like"

Fixed--Light show (talk) 00:23, 2 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This doesn't mention Thoroughbreds Don't Cry at all, but does include the quite on Rooney's work with Garland

Fixed--Light show (talk) 00:23, 2 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"Andy Hardy" in "three of the Andy Hardy films" should be italicized when referring to the series

Fixed--Light show (talk) 00:23, 2 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The tone of "with a crush on" seems too informal; try "attracted to", "infatuated with", or perhaps "in love with"

Fixed--Light show (talk) 00:23, 2 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"the Oscar-nominated Babes in Arms"..... again, mentioning a nomination here implies Rooney himself was nominated for his work, which doesn't seem to be the case

Fixed--Light show (talk) 00:23, 2 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"In 1937, Rooney received top billing as Shockey Carter in Hoosier Schoolboy but his breakthrough-role as a dramatic actor came in 1938's Boys Town opposite Spencer Tracy as Father Flanagan, who runs a home for wayward and homeless boys in Omaha, Nebraska, and helps the boys get their lives back together." isn't supported by the given ref

Fixed--Light show (talk) 00:23, 2 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Tracy winning Best Actor belongs in his article, not here

Fixed--Light show (talk) 00:23, 2 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"called Rooney 'the greatest actor of them all.'." has an extra period; just need one

Fixed--Light show (talk) 00:23, 2 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"In 1939, he was the first of many Hollywood stars to appear as an animated caricature in the Donald Duck cartoon The Autograph Hound." needs a source

Fixed, rm trivia--Light show (talk) 00:23, 2 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"greatest" in "the silver screen's greatest leading ladies" is not a neutral description

Fixed--Light show (talk) 00:23, 2 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

There's dead links that should be fixed to verify Young Artist accolades

Fixed--Light show (talk) 00:23, 2 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Not looking too good so far :/, but I'll continue with more comments in the future..... Snuggums (talk / edits) 21:47, 8 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Possibly getting better. --Light show (talk) 00:23, 2 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

World War II and career decline

Starting two consecutive sentences with "He" (I'm looking the first paragraph) is repetitive

Fixed --Light show (talk) 01:44, 2 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"he appeared with her on one episode as a guest on her CBS variety series in 1963"..... if mentioning this, then I would mention The Judy Garland Show by name

Fixed --Light show (talk) 01:44, 2 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The fourth and fifth paragraphs are entirely uncited and need references

Fixed --Light show (talk) 01:44, 2 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"Rooney said that if he had known he was going to offend people he wouldn't have done it"..... avoid contractions unless part of a quote or title, and let's try something like "Rooney said that he would not have taken the role if he had known it would offend people"

Fixed --Light show (talk) 01:44, 2 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This says nothing about detectives and doesn't give Barbara Thomason's alternate names (which I'm not sure are needed here anyway) or a middle name

Fixed --Light show (talk) 01:44, 2 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This link is down, and Twitter is discouraged as a source anyway

Fixed , removed--Light show (talk) 01:44, 2 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The Academy Juvenile Award was already mentioned in the previous section; no need to repeat it here

Fixed --Light show (talk) 01:44, 2 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"in 1983 the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences voted him their Academy Honorary Award for his lifetime of achievement" needs to be sourced

Fixed --Light show (talk) 01:44, 2 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm becoming increasingly pessimistic about the condition of this article..... Snuggums (talk / edits) 05:37, 13 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Slow going, but have hope. --Light show (talk) 01:44, 2 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

More later --Light show (talk) 01:50, 2 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Character roles and Broadway comeback

Television roles

Two pics on the same side in one section seems to be overstuffing the edge, especially when one leaks into the next section

Fixed --Light show (talk) 03:37, 2 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Everything except for the third paragraph, fourth paragraph, and seventh paragraph is missing citations, and the end of the fourth paragraph needs to be sourced as well

Fixed --Light show (talk) 03:37, 2 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"turning down an offer for a huge TV series, Rooney finally hit the jackpot" doesn't seem like appropriate tone

Fixed --Light show (talk) 03:37, 2 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Broadway shows

this doesn't contain "The show turned out to be a spectacular hit" within the quote, which is too biased and informal when not part of a quote

Fixed --Light show (talk) 03:47, 2 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The entire second and third paragraphs are unsourced

Fixed --Light show (talk) 03:47, 2 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Published work

Seems like a rather short paragraph. If Rooney wrote anything else, then I'd also include that here. Otherwise, it might help to include additional reviews.

Fixed--Light show (talk) 03:51, 2 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This is not a good sign..... Snuggums (talk / edits) 19:51, 17 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

A better one. --Light show (talk) 03:51, 2 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Final years

CBS doesn't state Mickey's role, and I'm not so sure it's necessary in this instance to mention Ben Stiller or Robin Williams

Fixed--Light show (talk) 04:07, 2 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Link for sequel is dead [harder to verify]

Fixed--Light show (talk) 04:07, 2 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"In 2011, Rooney made a brief cameo appearance in The Muppets" needs its own citation

Fixed--Light show (talk) 04:07, 2 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm surprised this doesn't mention that the third Night at the Museum movie was dedicated to his memory

Added

Finding more and more flaws, unfortunately..... Snuggums (talk / edits) 05:53, 19 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Status query

SNUGGUMS, Coretheapple, what is the status of this review? While I don't know whether the review is complete, I haven't seen any edits that address any of the issues raised above, which should surely have started being addressed by now, over four weeks after the first comments were made. Thank you. BlueMoonset (talk) 19:46, 31 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Not complete yet, but I so far don't have a very good feeling about the article's condition Snuggums (talk / edits) 20:00, 31 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

These are all excellent points, but frankly it's a bit overwhelming as there are so many. I had planned to get started addressing them myself but was sidetracked. Frankly I thought it was in better shape than it was, but all these points indicate the article needs a lot of work. Coretheapple (talk) 21:07, 31 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, it really does. Anyway, continuing.....

I wasn't aware it was under review.[1] --Light show (talk) 04:14, 2 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Personal life

I can see how "Rooney was married eight times, with six of the marriages ending in divorce" is based on subsequent text, but it's really redundant here when the marriages are already discussed individually
"In the 1960s and 1970s, he was often the subject of comedians' jokes due to his alleged inability to stay married" isn't in the given citation
This doesn't mention great-grandchildren at all, but I did find them here, which says 19 grandchildren instead of four
Not sure we need to repeat here how he was a gambler when the article already mentioned how he often gambled with his earnings
"well before she became a Hollywood starlet in her own right" is be better for Ava's article if anywhere
Stating his age and Ava's when they were married is needless; it's not like there was any controversy about their age gap or either one being underage
"couldn't" in "because he couldn't remain faithful to her" should be "could not" per WP:CONTRACTIONS, and this is borderline plagiarism when its source says "She divorced him after little more than a year because he couldn't remain faithful to her"
"beauty queen Betty Jane Phillips, who later became known as a singer under the name BJ Baker. They had two sons together. This marriage ended in divorce after he returned from Europe at the end of World War II. His marriage to actress Martha Vickers in 1949 produced one son but ended in divorce in 1951. He married actress Elaine Mahnken in 1952 and they divorced in 1958."..... the given citation doesn't at all mention which wives he had children with, when he was married to Martha Vickers or Elaine Mahnken, what Betty Jane Phillips later became known as/for (not sure the B. J. Baker bit is necessary here anyway), or when they separated. "Beauty queen" is also not a neutral description. What you should include is why he separated from his wives, which the ref suggests was incompatibility for Betty Jane Phillips
"tragedy struck" is blatant POV, and the ref doesn't say when Rooney married Barbara Ann Thomason (whose stage name probably isn't worth noting here)
"Their marriage lasted longer than his previous seven combined" is overkill, also CNN states he and Jan separated in 2012 while suggesting they remained legally married until his 2014 death
"On September 23, 2010, he celebrated his 90th birthday at Feinstein's at Loews Regency on the Upper East Side of Manhattan. Among those who attended the fete were Donald Trump, Regis Philbin, Nathan Lane and Tony Bennett." is completely superfluous
"On February 16, 2011, Rooney was granted a temporary restraining order against stepson Christopher Aber and Aber's wife, Christina. Aber was one of Jan Rooney's two sons from a previous marriage. The court order stated that the Abers were to stay 100 yards from Rooney, his stepson Mark Rooney and his wife, Charlene Rooney."..... BBC only states the restriction was between Rooney himself and Christopher, though I do see The Hollywood Reporter says Christopher's wife was also restricted
"Mickey charged Chris and Christina Aber with elder abuse and fraud"..... I see support for elder abuse charges, but not fraud
"On March 2, 2011, Rooney appeared before a special U.S. Senate committee that was considering legislation to curb elder abuse, testifying about the abuse he claimed to have suffered at the hands of family members" needs a citation since neither one at the end of the paragraph used mention anything of the sort
"abusive to his wife and addicted to sleeping pills"..... we already mentioned sleeping pills before; it's repetitive to state that here again
"prosecutors decided not to file battery charges against him" should include how this was they couldn't find enough evidence of the beating claims
"In June 2012, Mickey requested in the Superior Court to permanently reside with Mark and Charlene and legally separate from his wife, Jan Rooney"..... "Mickey" should be "Rooney" per WP:SURNAME, and this bit isn't at all mentioned in this, but we've already mentioned when he separated from Jan anyway. However, we can use CNN to say he lived with Mark for his last couple of years.
Is "Godreports" the best attribution for Rooney's religious affiliation? I'm not familiar with the publication, and don't know how viable of a source it is.

Marriages

Aside from which children were from which marriage, this essentially rehashes previous text (where it should be contained), and it would help to give all of his children's names (with appropriate sources to support each)

Death

This LA Times piece doesn't give a specific date of death, but another one here does, and so do citations like The Hollywood Reporter and New York Daily News
"gone for a nap after lunch"..... what's more important is how this was in the afternoon, though it doesn't give a time he was declared dead
"wife of 37 years, Jan Chamberlain, from whom he was separated"..... seems to actually be 36 years, though that bit isn't needed anyway
While we've already noted how many children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren Rooney had (at least at the time he died), it might be worth noting that son Tim died before he did
"several weeks prior to his death" would typically imply between 5-10 weeks when it wasn't even 4 weeks; let's go with "less than a month prior"
He actually just left his estate to stepson Mark, not any of his own children
"His estate had dwindled to $18,000, which was left to stepson Mark Rooney, the son of Jan Rooney"..... we've already established who Mark is and that he was the only one to get anything in Rooney's will
I'm not so sure it's worth mentioning disputes over burial location; let's just state where he was buried

The flaws I'm afraid are continuing..... Snuggums (talk / edits) 22:02, 31 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Legacy

"Rooney co-starred with other leading actors of the time, including Judy Garland, Wallace Beery and Spencer Tracy" doesn't really seem like it belongs here
This section seems to be mostly praise. While some of that is fine, it really could use more detail about how he impacted/influenced the film industry and society.

Filmography

A referral link to Mickey Rooney filmography by itself is far too short when it's otherwise empty (and therefore flat out useless) when it doesn't provide anything informative. I'd either list all of the films here mentioned within article prose or contain this as a "see also" note in the career section.

Stage

Previous text suggests his role in A Midsummer Night's Dream took place in 1935, not 1934
There's a bunch of plays listed here with no prior discussion in article body, which is a major issue

Awards and honors

The awards here are all uncited, which is particularly worrisome for those not previously mentioned in article text

References

Dead links need to be fixed
When available, refs need to have titles, accessdates, publishing dates, author names (except perhaps for own website), and work names
"bostonglobe.com" should read The Boston Globe
"latimes.com" should read Los Angeles Times
"cbc.ca" should read "CBC News"
"CNN.com" should read simply "CNN" without italics
"YoungArtistAwards.org" should just read "Young Artist Awards" without italics
"NPR.com" should read only "NPR" and not be italicized
Don't italicize Yahoo!, which is missing its exclamation point
"Independent.co.uk." should read The Independent
"The" is part of the title for The New York Times, which should be italicized, and I'm not sure if "New York Observed" should be included in the citation
"Theguardian.com" and "guardian.co.uk" should read The Guardian
I'm not sure if Daily Express, "GrandTimes.com", "Ny1.com", Daily Breeze, or "Godreports" are good sources to use, but TMZ, Wordpress, The Huffington Post, and The Daily Mail are definitely subpar
"Bbc.co.uk" should just read "BBC" or "BBC News". Either one is fine, but please be consistent with whichever one you choose.
"People.com" should read People with italics
"MiamiHerald.com." should just read "Miami Herald" and be italicized
"channel4.com" should read simply "Channel 4"
"NBC News" shouldn't be italicized

Overall

Prose: Some redundant text, and other pieces could use copyediting
Referencing: Many instances of sources not supporting article text, and citations themselves definitely need work
Coverage: This goes into too much detail on certain aspects while not enough on others
Neutral: I've seen far worse, but this could be better
Stability: Nothing of concern here
Media: As far as I can tell, no copyright concerns
Verdict: Unfortunately, this was nominated very prematurely and will need extensive work to be up to par. Failing this as a result. Snuggums (talk / edits) 23:02, 31 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate the very detailed review but as SNUGGUMS indicated we appear to be far from this being up to GA caliber. I have to say that I was stymied at the very first recommendation, as I knew that trimming back the lead description of Rooney would set off a battle royale, in addition to frankly not agreeing with it. However, his other points are well taken and I guess I was overoptimistic in nominating this for GA at this time. Coretheapple (talk) 15:38, 1 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.