Talk:Granville Stuart

Deaths by Stuart's Stranglers

The statement in the source is dubious because none of the biographical sources on Stuart or on Montana Vigilantes claims this large number being attributed to Stuart. Although the cited source makes this statement, the underlying reference in source is unavailable online. Once I find it, I'll clarify this concern. --Mike Cline (talk) 00:47, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

Summary of other sources --Mike Cline (talk) 01:32, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

• Oscar O. Mueller (January 1951). "The Central Montana Vigilante Raids of 1884". The Montana Magazine of History. 1 (1). Montana Historical Society: 35. Summing up the facts, the DHS raids were responsible for a minimum of 15 and a maximum of 18 during 1884
• "Mr. Montana" Revised: Another Look at Granville Stuart". Montana: The Magazine of Western History. 36 (4). Montana Historical Society: 19. Autumn 1986. In popular imagination, Stuart is best known as the leader of "Stuart's Stranglers", a vigilante band that executed at least 17 alleged rustlers in Central Montana in less than a month {{cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |authors= ignored (help)
• Milner, Clyde A. II; O'Conner, Carol A. (2008). As Big As The West-The Pioneer Life of Granville Stuart. New York: Oxford University Press. ISBN 9780195127096. Stuart's Stranglers waged a war against horse thieves. The number killed totaled at least 18 but may have approached two dozen
• Mueller, Oscar O. (1964). "Rustlers, Renegade and Stranglers-Ridding the Range of Renegades". In Kennedy, Michael S. Cowboys and Cattlemen: A Roundup from Montana:The Magazine of Western History. New York: Hastings House, Publishers. pp. 240–252.
• Dillon, Mark C. (2013). Montana Vigilantes 1863-1870 Gold, Guns and Gallows. Logan, UT: Utah State University Press. p. 345. ISBN 9780874219197. Unsubstantiated rumors circulated over the course of months and years that the Stranglers killed scores of men, oftentimes for ulterior motives having nothing to do with fighting crime.

• Dillon lists only 20 documented deaths attributed to vigilantes between July 3 and July 22 1884 (pages 372-73).

• Allen, Frederick (2005). Decent, Orderly Lynching: The Montana Vigilantes. Norman, OK: University of Oklahoma Press. p. 358. ISBN 0-8061-3651-0.

• Allen attributes only 13 deaths to Stuart's Stranglers

• Malone, Michael P.; Roeder, Richard B.; Lang, William L. (1991). Montana-A History of Two Centuries. Seattle, WA: University of Washington Press. p. 163. ISBN 0-295-97129-0. Following the 1884 spring roundup, a group of stockmen in central Montana banded together under Stuart's leadership. Their organization,, which became known as 'Stuart's Stranglers', killed at least fifteen men. ...and some old timers figure [speculation] they killed more than sixty men

• The Malone text is considered the standard scholarly text on Montana history and even he attribute large numbers of deaths to mere rumor and speculation.

• Howard, Joseph Kinsey (2003) [1943]. Montana: High, Wide, and Handsome. Lincoln, NE: University of Nebraska Press. p. 134. Estimates [by newspaper accounts] of the number of men killed in the cleanup of horse thieves vary from 19 to 75. ...The Mineral Argus, deploring wild rumors, thought even 17 was 'placing the number [of victims] a little too high.'

• Howard is as well considered a prominent Montana historian and does not attribute any killings of settlers to Stuart.

Re: I managed to find the book, it's legit, although it primarily focused on the Johnson County War, and that part with Stuart was just an intro to the definition of range wars.

link: https://books.google.com.ph/books?id=bBHpAwAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=johnson+county+war&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_LsKVdejNYel8QXHoYGoCQ&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=stuart&f=false

Your sources are correct, but the deaths were only about the horse thieves. But I think what the anon was trying to convey was that Stuart's group killed more than a hundred horse rustlers and range squatters along Montana. I don't think there's any problem with what he added, but I don't know about you. Godzilladude123 (talk) 12:11, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

Godzilladude. Yeah, I read the one sentence in the book claiming Stuart was responsible for 100 deaths. However, until I see the actual footnote source, I find it very difficult to believe. The extensive biographical work on Stuart and the Stranglers by prominent historians, comes no where close to validating that number or that Stuart was responsible for the deaths of settlers. Most the larger numbers come from pure rumor or speculation and if the 100 number stays it has to be attributed so, not stated as if it was fact. Time will tell.--Mike Cline (talk) 13:35, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

Lewl you're right. I'm been going through trying to find some legit references to see if Stuart's Stranglers did killed hundred squatters. So far I've only found some, but here are the most well-written books:

In one citation, it says he killed 75: Montana, high, wide, and handsome by Joseph Kinsey Howard (2003) pp. 129–137

and one saying he did killed a hundred: http://bismarcktribune.com/entertainment/books-and-literature/book-tells-of-vigilante-justice-in-the-west/article_f3df00c2-d327-11e0-b995-001cc4c03286.html (See: Stuart's Stranglers)

So far, in my opinion, the citations between yours and the anon's are a wash. Probably a "agree to disagree" conclusion. So far let's just say between 18-hundred or something. I don't know, in the end you're the expert.Godzilladude123 (talk) 16:55, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

I am not sure that the Bismarck Tribune source would cut it as reliable source since it is a review of an historical novel (fiction) Twelve Quiet Men. I have copy and again the large numbers attributed to Stuart are characterized as pure rumor and speculation by some newspaper accounts. All factual accounts tell of small numbers. If we found a newspaper account that suggested 5000 people died in the 9/11 bombings would we allow that number in the article. I doubt it, there's too much factual evidence against it. --Mike Cline (talk) 17:36, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

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Granville Stuart (1834–1918) was a pioneer, gold prospector, businessman, civic leader, vigilante, author, cattleman and diplomat who played a prominent role in the early history of Montana Territory and the state of Montana. Widely known as "Mr. Montana", Granville's life spanned the formative years of Montana from territorial times through the first 30 years of statehood. His journals and writings have provided Montana and western historians unique insights into life in the Northern Rockies during the second half the 19th century.

Photograph credit: L. A. Huffman; restored by Adam Cuerden

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