Talk:Frédéric Chopin
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Frequently asked questions Q1: Why is Chopin described as a "Polish composer" in the lead (first paragraph)?
A1: There is a consensus between Wikipedians that the majority of secondary reliable sources refer to Chopin as solely a Polish composer. See the last request for comment for further information. Q2: Why doesn't this article include more information on Chopin's sexuality?
A2: Opinions on Chopin's sexuality, particularly as to whether he was homosexual, are equivocal or absent in the majority of secondary reliable sources. Since this article is a featured article, it is required to utilize only "high quality" sources; such sources do not generally give a direct declaration on whether Chopin was homosexual or not. See this request for comment for further information. Q3: Why doesn't this article give 22 February as Chopin's birthdate?
A3: Although Chopin's baptismal record gives his birthdate as 22 February, this is now considered a mistake by modern scholars. Chopin and his family considered his true birthdate to be 1 March, which is now accepted by most scholars. See Britannica and the UK Chopin Society for further information. |
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Should the article's name be changed to Fryderyk Chopin?
[edit]Frédéric is the French spelling of Frederick. Since Chopin is referred to as solely Polish in the article instead of being Franco-Polish, I think it is more appropriate to rename the article to Fryderyk Chopin. Lebaophuoc2005 (talk) 19:15, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
- But as he lived the most productive part of his life in France and is most well-known by the French version of his name, the article title should stay as it is. - kosboot (talk) 19:45, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
- So why not say that he is “French-Polish” and not just “Polish”? Since his father was French, it makes perfect sense (especially since the Napoleonic Code at Chopin's birth stipulated that a child born to a French parent was French as well). I don't understand why some people are blocking this modification which should have been made a long time ago. 2A02:8428:A14:6D01:B683:CDCF:2BF4:92D4 (talk) 03:13, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
- It's simple - Chopin was born and raised in Poland and felt a Pole, his native language was polish. Writing "French-Polish" would be an abuse. 176.100.195.245 (talk) 09:00, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
- But this is an english wikipedia. So let's be consistent. Either use an english name Frederick, or use his baptism / documented (as you prefer) name Fryderyk. 176.100.195.245 (talk) 08:57, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
- The English language field of Chopin study doesn't currently have a standard for which spelling to use, so some scholars use the Polish, some use the French, and some use neither. For example, 2 modern partial biographies used the French spelling (Annik LaFarge's Chasing Chopin (2020), and Paul Kildea's Chopin's Piano (2018). Jeffrey Kallberg is a major name in the field, and he has been calling him just "Chopin" since the 1980s. The trend seems to be leaning toward using the Polish spelling, however. The most influential modern biography is Alan Walker's Fryderyk Chopin: A Life and Times (2018), the most recent English translation of Chopin's correspondence is David Frick's Chopin's Polish Letters (2016), and a current major English-language collection of essays is the 2017 Chopin and His World edited by Jonathan D. Bellman and Halina Goldberg -- all of which call him Fryderyk. None use the English, and I don't think Wikipedia will change the page based solely on trends in the field toward a Polish spelling. 12angrybees (talk) 00:34, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
- So why not say that he is “French-Polish” and not just “Polish”? Since his father was French, it makes perfect sense (especially since the Napoleonic Code at Chopin's birth stipulated that a child born to a French parent was French as well). I don't understand why some people are blocking this modification which should have been made a long time ago. 2A02:8428:A14:6D01:B683:CDCF:2BF4:92D4 (talk) 03:13, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
- Very obvious case of WP:COMMONNAME here. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 06:26, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
- So why Frédéric and not Frederic, since it's English language wiki? 45.93.75.81 (talk) 17:36, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- Actually, most people know him as Frederic. Also Fryderyk doesn’t sound familiar. 2600:8802:3A0B:3000:B128:B046:A97C:CE74 (talk) 23:09, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
- Of course it should. But westerners have a weird obsession of making every famous Polish person their own. Maria Skłodowska? No, Marie Curie. Mikołaj Kopernik? No. Nicolaus Copernicus. Fryderyk Chopin? No. Frédéric Chopin. I, despite not being a nationalist, can easily see why Polish people would be angry at that. It's as if someone was actively trying to erase existence of Polish culture. Something that soviets, prussians, austrians, russians tried to do in the past, now is done in the present. By normal people. Disgusting. Awhileo (talk) 17:34, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- See WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS; Wikipedia is a highly general encyclopedic work that is fundamentally a reflection of secondary sources. Whether those secondary sources are eroding this aspect of Chopin's national identity is, unfortunately, irrelevant. If you want to make a change, go start publishing on Chopin in an academic journal. Aza24 (talk) 19:42, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
Translation of Chopin -> Woyciechowski letter very poor.
[edit]The letter quoted from Chopin to Tytus Woyciechowski is translated poorly. The scholar (Alan Walker) who translated it very clearly transposed his personal view about the implication of the letter onto the literal text itself, a practice he has been extensively criticised for in many languages. There are glaring errors in the text that become evident when contrasted to the original polish. For example:
In the second sentence, the word "całuj" is rendered as embrace. "całuj" is a polish word meaning "kiss". It is never translated as embrace. The phrase used in the letter (see last paragraph, 4th last line) is "nie całuj mnie", meaning "don't kiss me". Here is a webpage with nine examples of that exact phrase, translated from polish to english, with 'embrace' appearing 0/9 times. Wiktionary itself correctly lists this word as second-person singular imperative of całować, which is then listed as a verb meaning "to kiss." The point is surely made.
This folly is repeated with the phrase "nie pocałowałbyś," (third last line) which translates from polish into english as "you wouldn't kiss". Again, it is rendered as embrace. Again, any casual Wikipedian without the desire to look up original polish is led astray.
Once more this incorrect translation rears its head. Chopin, rather poetically says "Dziś Ci się śnić będzie, że mnie całujesz", meaning, "today you will dream that you are kissing me." 'całujesz' is just a conjugation of 'całuj', which has been tackled. This basic error has really become inexcusable at this point, and quite apart from anything, it has deadened all of the poetry originally present in the text.
I think it's pretty clear what has happened here. Alan Walker respects Chopin greatly, and believes that when he wrote these letters he must have been (in Alan's own words) "twisted in the mind" and in a state of "psychological confusion". Thus, he has toned down some of the language, and in doing so, he has made basic errors of fact which I have illustrated. Fine - but there are other translations, and it is ridiculous not to use them over one that is, in a literal sense, misinformation, taken from a source which repeatedly questions Chopin's mental state in a spurious manner. Please let's discuss alternatives. Tqger (talk) 14:38, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
- Wikipedia editors can't use their own translations because that is original research (see WP:NOR). If you can find better published translations, list them here. - kosboot (talk) 00:52, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
- I'm aware of that. Page 102 of this book, Digitized by the Internet Archive in 2011, provides an accurate (if clunky) translation, which is a step up. It was compiled/translated in 1931 by Ethel Voynich, an interesting character in herself. Tqger (talk) 00:58, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
- thanks for doing this! Ulysse Verjus-Tonnelé (talk) 23:50, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks Tqger! Frick‘s translation is very precise (in this passage):
I will go and wash. Don‘t kiss me now, because I haven‘t yet washed. You? Even if I were to rub myself with Byzantine oils, you still wouldn‘t kiss me, unless I compelled you to do so with magnetism. There is some sort of force in nature. Today you will dream that you‘re kissing me. I have to pay you back for the nasty dream you brought me last night.
- And the picture of Woyciechowski is missing! Chip-chip-2020 (talk) 23:24, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- If there are no substantial objections, I will insert the picture of Woyciechowski.Chip-chip-2020 (talk) 13:09, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
- thanks for doing this! Ulysse Verjus-Tonnelé (talk) 23:50, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
- I'm aware of that. Page 102 of this book, Digitized by the Internet Archive in 2011, provides an accurate (if clunky) translation, which is a step up. It was compiled/translated in 1931 by Ethel Voynich, an interesting character in herself. Tqger (talk) 00:58, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
References
- ^ Chopin, Frédéric, 1810-1849,. Chopin's Polish letters. Frick, David A., Narodowy Instytut Fryderyka Chopina. Warsaw. pp. 174–175. ISBN 978-83-64823-19-0. OCLC 956448514.
{{cite book}}
: CS1 maint: extra punctuation (link) CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (link) - ^ https://chopin.nifc.pl/en/chopin/list/675_to-tytus-woyciechowski-in-poturzyn
Fake chopin "photo"
[edit]Apologies for not knowing the correct way to flag this but the 3rd chopin photo is a complete forgery. It is a photoshop manipulated crop of the following painting and should be removed. It is a hoax
https://ibb.co/1myysGj 2600:1702:B20:5A50:890F:E1BD:484D:C3DB (talk) 20:34, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
- If nobody objects I will remove that image 12.49.47.122 (talk) 21:28, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- Are you talking about this image? Well, this article certainly seems to indicate that it is uncertain (which the text should be changed too). That it is a complete hoax we would need sources to establish that it is a hoax; I'm afraid we can't take another editor's word on Wikipedia.
- Now I'm wondering what exactly this image is; I don't see a source for it and it was only recently added. Something fishy going on here. Aza24 (talk) 22:06, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Aza24 – here is the source you asked for: https://web.archive.org/web/20180907011929/https://en.chopin.nifc.pl/institute/events/news/id/4550 IntGrah (talk) 23:20, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Related tweet:
- https://twitter.com/ChopinInstitute/status/920962215460720641 IntGrah (talk) 23:22, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks, now removed. I've removed the other too; not seeing any sourcing/link for it and it was uploaded just last month. There's not really room in that section for extra images anyways, causes WP:Sandwiching Aza24 (talk) 23:35, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Aza24 the other daguerreotype is well-known to be genuine though, it's just so poor quality that it hardly gets passed around. I'm fine with it removed from that section. – IntGrah (talk) 23:55, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks, now removed. I've removed the other too; not seeing any sourcing/link for it and it was uploaded just last month. There's not really room in that section for extra images anyways, causes WP:Sandwiching Aza24 (talk) 23:35, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Aza24 – here is the source you asked for: https://web.archive.org/web/20180907011929/https://en.chopin.nifc.pl/institute/events/news/id/4550 IntGrah (talk) 23:20, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
Birth place
[edit]I need a consensus that a birthplace can be defined as historical places, where Chopin was born in Żelazowa Wola, Duchy of Warsaw (now Poland). 49.150.14.10 (talk) 03:17, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
- You may like to refer to a past discussion: Archive 2 IntGrah (talk) 11:03, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
- I put the Duchy of Warsaw as the place of birth because I noticed that the standard for biographical articles is to indicate in the infobox the State/political entity of the time, even if it is in a region traditionally associated with a nation, as is the case with Chopin. — Gaèlic talk 04:26, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
- Note that I've rangeblocked the OP for block evasion.-- Ponyobons mots 16:23, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
Semi protected glitch
[edit]The semi - protected icon is not showing up in the main article, only in the edit section. Is there intentional?
P.S. Has there been an attempt at trying to list the page as pending changes protection instead of semi protection?
Apologies in advance if these have already been answered. Wikieditor662 (talk) 06:18, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- Good question, and I'm not sure. It should last until 2028 per this edit. It looks like it is indeed semi-protected, but the icon was not added; I'm not sure if that's something anyone can add. @Antandrus? Aza24 (talk) 14:24, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
- Huh. Maybe I'm missing something. @Wikieditor662: can you give me an example of a temporarily semi-protected article that has the icon you want to see? the pp-semi template just puts an unsightly banner-tag on the top. Antandrus (talk) 14:57, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
- Well, I believe the only other composers to be semi protected are Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven, and the semi protection lock works fine on them as far as I'm aware. Wikieditor662 (talk) 04:07, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- Ah, ok, I added {{pp|small=yes}} to place the little silver icon. (It should be easier to find that in the documentation. Usually I just let the bot add it after I've placed a protection.) I'd rather not use pending changes because then we'll just have a flood of IP edits changing Chopin's nationality or birthdate showing in the history but not approved; in my opinion that's just a lot of unnecessary bother. Antandrus (talk) 15:04, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
- Sounds good to me. Thank you! Aza24 (talk) 23:26, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
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