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Archiving

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Just a notice that I'm going to request automatic archiving on this talk page.   Jhony  |  Talk   13:30, 1 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Racism

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Racism towards black people? Anyone want to cite something on the page about this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.37.16.220 (talk) 00:18, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2008/may/14/uefa.zenitstpetersburg

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/2299242/Zenit-fans-are-racist-admits-Dick-Advocaat.html 2 reliable sources Spiderone (talk) 16:56, 10 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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Oh, my God! St. Petersburg is the city in Florida, U.S.A. !!! The correct name of Russian city is Sankt Peterburg !!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.111.103.110 (talk) 14:29, 30 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 2009

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The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was no consensus for move. Arbitrarily0 (talk) 17:29, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

FC Zenit Saint Petersburg → FC Zenit — It's a common practice in England to customize foreign clubs' names by appending city to their actual name; this produced Inter Milan, Sporting Lisbon, Rangers F.C. etc. Zenit's name pretty looks like another case of this, hence the requested move. The club clearly prefer "FC Zenit" name: their site located at http://www.fc-zenit.ru/ is named "The Official Zenit FC Website", they are referred simply as Zenit in the news section (http://www.fc-zenit.ru/eng/main.phtml) and their official name is "FC Zenit joint-stock company"[1]. Both FC Zenit and FC Zenit St. Petersburg has been adopted by a significant section of the English-language media as evidenced by Google News: hits for "fc zenit", zenit -"st. petersburg" and "zenit st. petersburg". Finally, it isn't easily confused with other clubs' names such as FC Zenit Čáslav since the latter are low-profile and get much less news coverage [2]. -- Barocci  21:53, 22 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose
1) see logo and contact information of the club on the site - FC Zenit Saint Petersburg. 2) too many words name Zenit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by WildCherry06 (talk • contribs) 22:28, 22 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
1a) What contact information you are referring to? I only found "Copyright © 1999-2009, Zenit Football Club" at the bottom.
1b) Regarding logo, what's the point? The logo is in Russian language, but Zenit is never called "Zenit St. Petersburg" in Russian, you as a Russian speaker know that. Anyway, "Saint Petersburg" on the logo is not meant as a part of the club name, that is clear from previous logo, File:FC Zenit Saint Petersburg old logo.png, where one can explicitly read "Санкт-Петербургский Футбольный Клуб Зенит" (Football Club Zenit from Saint Petersburg).
2) Concerning "too many Zenits", may I please refer you to WP:PRIMARYTOPIC? After all, FC Zenit has always been a redirect to FC Zenit Saint Petersburg and as far as I know, nobody has ever complained about that.  Barocci  23:24, 22 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - This may only be my opinion, but I find "FC Zenit" to be too vague a name for this article. Anyway, the club logo clearly says "Football Club Zenit Saint Petersburg", making the current title perfectly fine. – PeeJay 01:41, 23 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It really surprises me that people are paying so much attention to logo while ignoring the fact that the club clearly prefers to name themselfs simply "FC Zenit", based on the website evidence. Does logo have undue weight? Any reason why you assume "Saint Petersburg" on the logo to be a part of club's name and not just a mention of the city (did you read my explanation why it is the latter above)? Is every word on logo a part of club's name (should Rangers thus be moved to Rangers Football Club Ready based on their logo File:Rangers.png)? Why even take team crests in consideration? Is this policies-based approach? And do you find Rangers F.C. a vague name as well? (given the existence of Club Social de Deportes Rangers, who also call themselfs just "Rangers" (see Gastón Cellerino for example)) You are just ignoring WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, aren't you?  Barocci  02:17, 23 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. As the nominator says, both "FC Zenit" and "FC Zenit Saint Petersburg" are used. However, "FC Zenit" is the name of more than one club, so it makes sense to retain the "Saint Petersburg" part as a disambiguator. This seems to me as one of those rare win-win cases—we get to disambiguate a common name and still are left with a name that enjoys real-life use.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 14:37, November 25, 2009 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.


Requested move

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The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Procedural close, no move made, the discussion below has become dysfunctional and is not contributing to a reasoned decision on this article title. An article move by an editor, not requiring admin intervention, is perfectly acceptable under our WP:RM guideline. That fact that this article was moved without discussion after a previous move decision two years ago is irrelevant. Policies and guidelines permit such moves as RM decisions are not binding in any sense, especially after 2 years. The only caution for editors is not to make undiscussed moves during an ongoing RM as that is considered disruptive. Not the case here. Editors interested in changing the name of this article should open another RM and stick to policy-based arguments for or against the alternative name. The history of moves is irrelevant. Impuning the character and behavior of other editors will carry no weight in the decision and should be avoided. Plus, this article could use a bit of work as it has been tagged for references since 09/2011 Mike Cline (talk) 18:42, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

FC Zenit → FC Zenit Saint Petersburg – Move made without discussion, and against the decision previously made on the talk page.Ilikeeatingwaffles (talk) 11:21, 30 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support - actually we shouldn't have this discussion. Some administrator should move the page back as a result of the previous discussion, and if Barocci wants to move it to FC Zenit he should make another "requested move discussion", when this article is in it's right position.Mentoz86 (talk) 07:57, 31 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. And agree with Montoz86. It should not have been moved without a new RM. Walrasiad (talk) 13:44, 31 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Yup, I am bold and the very same policy some of your, guys, actions are seemingly relying upon says "Editors may make changes without prior discussion" and then "Further discussion should then be undertaken on the article discussion page", so I believe it says I am not obliged to discuss my every single step and I see nothing controversial in moving an article from an incorrect to a correct name, but, if you are interested in discussing the matter, let's do it. However I honestly can't see any discussion on the subject here (which is a bit surprising), so let me start one:
  • The move to FC Zenit that I've done is, I believe, an improvement. First of all, the club is never called "Zenit Saint Petersburg" in Russian, it's always just "Zenit", because the club is called that, "Zenit", and nobody really thinks there's a need for any disambiguation between reigning Premier League champions and some Second Division outsider, that's just stupid. Second, the club is clearly prefers to call themselves "FC Zenit" in English as well: their site is http://en.fc-zenit.ru/main/, at the bottom you can see "Football Club Zenit. All rights reserved.", in the club section "Zenit football club was established in May, 1925. At first the team was a part of the Leningrad Metal Plant in the name of Stalin. The club carried the name Stalinets from 1936 to 1940, when the club got its current name – Zenit. FC Zenit is the only team in the Russian Premier League representing St. Petersburg." and so on. Finally, the very reason the article was called FC Zenit Saint Petersburg initially is because of well known systematic bias of UK residents to (sometimes incorrectly) call foreign clubs (FC +) Club name + City name, like FC Inter Milan or AZ Alkmaar (note that both articles' names are correct). In case of Zenit, even in the UK-based press, both Zenit and Zenit Saint Petersburg are used, so I believe it is perfectly well to move the article to its correct title, which is simply "FC Zenit". Thank you guys for reading. Barocci (talk) 16:54, 31 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • Example: FC Zenit, Zenit. Note that all recent headlines use simply "Zenit". On a separate note, please don't use any Google hit-based argument, total hits count says nothing about the recent usage because two or three years ago Zenit St Peterburg name were used more often, but now as the club become fairly well known in Europe it is no more the case, so you cannot correctly measure recent usage that way. Barocci (talk) 17:06, 31 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • Oh, and the decision that the nom is referring to was made more that two years ago, things I believe have changed in favour of the move since then (as shown above). Barocci (talk) 17:17, 31 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        • Comment Why does the text on the club badge in the article read "Футбольный клуб Зенит Санкт-Петербург", which I believe is the Russian for "Football Club Zenit Saint Petersburg"?Ilikeeatingwaffles (talk) 21:42, 31 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
          • Citing club logo section of the official website, http://en.fc-zenit.ru/main/history/logo/ : "When Zenit returned to the highest Russian league in 1996, the club brought order to its club documentation: the blue-white-light blues started to come on the field in shirts with the official club emblem – an arrow, a ball, and the golden ship of the Admiralty, with the words Saint-Petersburg Football Team written in a circle around the emblem. Starting from 1998, the team emblem took on a more modern look, and was made an officially-registered trademark. " Note that the text in two previous logos read "Футбольный клуб Зенит Санкт-Петербургский" and "Футбольный клуб Зенит Ленинградский", i.e. "Saint Petersburg Football Club Zenit" and "Leningrad Football Club Zenit", how they managed to loose that "-ский" suffix during the latest redesign I don't know :), but I don't think that this suffix-on-the-latest-logo issue is important for the club nor is it really important for the subject discussed there, as it is perfectly clear from the text cited above that they really meant Football Club Zenit from Saint Petersburg, or, well, at least there's no hint that they meant otherwise. So Zenit case now looks more similar to that of Ajax than that of Inter (thankfully, the former article is not located at FC Ajax Amsterdam either.) Barocci (talk) 22:10, 31 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
            • (e/c)There is also an occasionally used naming convention in Russian to write club name as FC Club name (City name), maybe they meant that in the latest redesign but dropped the brackets for aesthetics reasons, a similar convention is used in ru-wiki, for example "Арсенал (футбольный клуб, Лондон)" (Arsenal (football club, London)), Зенит (футбольный клуб, Санкт-Петербург) (Zenit (football club, Saint Petersburg)). Anyways all that is a bit speculative to suggest, the source says Saint-Petersburg Football Team and nothing else so we should stick to that for the matter of logo meaning. Barocci(talk) 22:36, 31 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
            • Well, that history isn't actually mega clear - no mention of the name change from Stalinets, it just 'happens'. Whe the text including the city's name is mentioned it never says anything along the lines of 'despite not be ing part of the club's official name...'. I note that UEFA [4] and the BBC[5] both call the club, Zenit St Petersburg, so I don't think that FC Zenit is the WP:COMMONNAME in English, though it is probably that in Russian.Ilikeeatingwaffles (talk) 22:23, 31 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
              • As far as I know (and the evidence suggests), both "simply" Zenit and Zenit St Petersburg are WP:COMMONNAMEs. For example, from the UEFA.com link you've given: "Zenit 2-0 Dinamo Bryansk", "Shakhtar Donetsk 2-2 Zenit", "Zenit 2-1 Lokomotiv Moskva" an so on. Barocci (talk) 22:47, 31 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
                • BBC, on the other hand, prefers Zenit St.Petersburg, while also using [6][7] "simply" Zenit freely. But for an opposite example I've given a link to SkySports search earlier that showed they favour Zenit over Zenit St.Petersburg. Barocci (talk) 22:57, 31 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
                  • It might be that the official name of Zenit is FC Zenit, but UEFA uses FC Zenit St Petersburg as the official name ([8]), and in articles about the club in The Telegraph([9]), ESPN ([10]) and Guardian ([11]) Zenit St Petersburg is used. AZ Alkmaar is often called AZ, even though AZ Alkmaar is the "right" name for a wiki-article, same goes with Inter Milan, Sporting Lisbon, AND Zenit Saint Petersburg. Per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:USEENGLISH, this article should be moved back. Mentoz86 (talk) 14:21, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The Telegraph uses incorrect names such as Apoel Nicosia (instead of APOEL F.C.) or FC Basle (instead of FC Basel). In fact, I oppose the move exactly per WP:COMMONNAME, since both shortened and extended name are common, both are English, shortened is official and extended is incorrect, and the same naming pattern to use official name in such case is used for similar articles: compare FC Zenit (and not Zenit St Petersburg) to AZ (football club) (and not AZ Alkmaar), F.C. Internazionale Milano (and not Inter Milan), Sporting Clube de Portugal (and not Sporting Lisbon), APOEL F.C. (and not Apoel Nicosia), FC Basel (and not FC Basle), AFC Ajax (and not Ajax Amsterdam), N.E.C. (football club) (and not NEC Nijmegen), Bayer 04 Leverkusen (and not Bayer Leverkusen), Olympique Lyonnais(and not Lyon), Olympique de Marseille (and not Marseille), FC Girondins de Bordeaux (and not Bordeaux), shall I continue?.. Barocci (talk) 08:21, 3 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Moving the page back mid-discussion would just cause more drama. It is not adversely affecting the encyclopedia to have another RM at this time; after all, this is two years in the future, and as Russian football because more well-known in English-language sources facts may change. That certainly does not excuse Barocci's having moved in spite of the previous opposition when he knew it would be controversial, for which he deserves a good slap with a trout. As for the move itself, the club is almost always referred to by the expanded title in English-language sources. This is an open-and-shut case ofWP:COMMONNAME. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 15:19, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • That certainly does not excuse Barocci's having moved in spite of the previous opposition when he knew it would be controversial I obviously didn't know, I thought no one would care. Among the Wikipedians that gathered there, I believe only Ilikeeatingwaffles and me edited the article itself. Barocci (talk) 06:32, 3 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • On the subject, I believe you, while in good faith, are passing UK-based sources as English-language sources, but English is a worldwide language and when you would look at the complete picture what you've said (the club is almost always referred to by the expanded title) would not be the case, for example Russian news agencies, which are more reliable sources on a Russian football club as they have better accuracy on this particular subject, don't use the expanded title in headlines at all Itar-TassRIANovosti Russia Today nor do the local newspaper St.Petersburg Times. Barocci (talk) 07:25, 3 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • That's why I said "almost always". Local sources are obviously more likely to use the "real name" of the club, but we are obliged to follow common use in order to provide the most familiar name for the majority of our readers. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 10:31, 3 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        • True, and then take a look at the issue from another point. Let's assume UK-based readers of Wiki read The Telegraph and the like and prefer FC Zenit St Petersburg. Russia-based readers are used to the official name (by the way FCZ abbreviation is well known itself, for example, it is used on fan scarves [13]) and prefer FC Zenit. How are we supposed to count where are the majority of this article readers from, Russia or UK? And then let's consider Europe, but uefa.com uses both Zenit and Zenit St Petersburg. And then we consider our worldwide audience, but fifa.com, like Russian sources, prefers Zenit in headlines [14]. And then some US news outlet I suppose prefer Zenit St Petersburg so... Well... Unfortunately we could not reasonably measure the most familiar name by asking readers of this article about their preferred news sources. That's why, based on my observations, I came to the conclusion that both names FC Zenit and FC Zenit St Petersburg are roughly WP:COMMONNAMEs. Hence the initial move to the correct name. Barocci (talk) 11:27, 3 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
          • It's not about where "this article readers from". Articles are not supposed to be written to cater to a particular audience: they are supposed to be general enough, and provide enough context, for unfamiliar readers as well as fans of the subject. Furthermore, considering that we have a Russian Wikipedia, it does not make particular sense to cater for Russians to the detriment of non-Russians on the English Wikipedia.Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 11:52, 3 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. Please take notice of the proposed move destination. It is not FC Zenit St Petersburg. It is FC Zenit Saint Petersburg. A name that is almost not used at all, even in the UK.[15] If you believe (I don't) that the article should be moved to FC Zenit St Petersburg, then you should indicate that in your replies i.e. "Support move to ... instead" because this request is not about a move to the title some of you are arguing for. Barocci (talk) 10:23, 3 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - it is worth noting that the Russian-language version of the article is called 'Zenit (football club, St Petersburg)'. GiantSnowman 11:56, 3 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • (e/c) Comment. Breaking news! If fact, we have a guideline that covers that exact case. It is called Wikipedia:Naming conventions (sports). It explicitly reads:
Sports teams

In cases where there is no ambiguity as to the official spelling of a club's name in English, the official name should be used. No ambiguity means that:

  • The name is used on the English-language section of the club's official website
  • The name has been adopted at least by a significant section of the English-language media and it is recognizable
  • The name is not easily confused with other clubs' names.

That is exactly the case of FC Zenit, I made every point clear in previous replies. There was at least one move based on that guideline, FC Dynamo Kiev → FC Dynamo Kyiv. Barocci (talk) 12:12, 3 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

http://www.uefa.com/teamsandplayers/teams/club=52826/profile/index.html: "Zenit St Petersburg" - 3 times, shortened "Zenit" - 65 times, "Zenit Leningrad" - once used on the page
http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11670/7390205/Zenit-confirm-Arshavin-interest: "Zenit St Petersburg" - once, shortened "Zenit" - 4 times
http://www.fifa.com/worldfootball/clubfootball/news/newsid=1552927.html: "Zenit St Petersburg" - once, shortened "Zenit" - 4 times
Barocci (talk) 13:03, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Counting the uses in one of these articles is irrelevant. An equivalent piece on, say, Manchester United would use the term "Manchester United" at the beginning, and then shorten to "United" for most of the rest of the article. I note that in your 65 "Zenit"s on the UEFA page you include the fixture list, where most of the team names are shortened versions: Tom, Rubin, Terek, etc.Ilikeeatingwaffles (talk) 13:50, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
So you are basically throwing out names that are shorter than FC Zenit St Petersburg for the reason that they are, er, shorter. This approach is not based on any Wikipedia policy or guideline as far as I know. And please suggest reasons why the uses of "Manchester United" and "Zenit St. Petersburg" are equivalent. I believe they are not: United F.C. would not satisfy conditions in Wikipedia:Naming conventions (sports). As for what you've called "shortened versions" of other Russian clubs' names, not all but many of them are in fact correct official club names in English as well. Barocci (talk) 14:42, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You misunderstand, I am merely refuting your claim that UEFA, FIFA and Sky Sports call this club Zenit. The links show that they call the club Zenit St Petersburg, and use Zenit as a short form of this. Are you saying that Tom Tomsk, Rubin Kazan and Terek Grozny are not the correct names for these clubs? Ilikeeatingwaffles (talk) 15:55, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Second requested move

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The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. Aervanath (talk) 17:16, 7 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]


FC Zenit → FC Zenit Saint Petersburg – According to WP:COMMONNAME and WP:USEENGLISH, this article should be moved back.relisted--Mike Cline (talk) 16:52, 17 February 2012 (UTC) Mentoz86 (talk) 20:33, 9 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment - I don't think FC Zenit should be used for disambiguation, as FC Zenit St. Petersburg is the club the is most known of the FC Zenit's, and was a redirect to FC Zenit Saint Petersburg before the page was moved here. Mentoz86 (talk) 13:49, 4 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

I saw it mentioned in the discussion that UEFA uses 'Zenit Saint Petersburg', but I checked and UEFA actually just uses "FC Zenit" as the official name on their site. link--Львівське (говорити) 20:29, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

New Kit 2015-16

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Please put the new kits. Here are the images: Home kit: http://image-load-balancer.worldsportshops.com/Images/watermarked_thumbnail.aspx?img=78024&photoNum=1&t=I&catalog=SoccerUCL&w=300&h=300 

         http://en.shop.fc-zenit.ru/pictures/image.php?width=450&height=500&image=/upload/mediabank/686459-450/front_siniy.jpg

Away kit: http://en.shop.fc-zenit.ru/pictures/image.php?width=450&height=500&image=/upload/mediabank/686457-106/front_belyy.jpg 

         http://en.shop.fc-zenit.ru/pictures/image.php?width=450&height=500&image=/upload/mediabank/686459-105/front_belyy.jpg

Racism

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Why is there no mention of the club and its fan's racism? This seems relevant. 174.29.81.203 (talk) 03:21, 4 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Requested move 16 March 2018

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not Moved per the sources provided which show the use of the current name in reliable sources. (non-admin closure) –Ammarpad (talk) 10:30, 23 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

FC Zenit Saint Petersburg → FC Zenit – Placing this move request on behalf of @Cricket246:, who I will invite to state their reasons. GiantSnowman 09:51, 16 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. GiantSnowman 09:51, 16 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hi to all. I noted that in Europa League pages that the name "Zenit Saint Petersburg" is used but the club officially names itself as "FC Zenit" so shouldn't we use only "Zenit" as the name in all the competition pages? The official club name is FC Zenit only do I think we shouldn't digress from the original name. Cricket246 (talk) 09:56, 16 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Титул России

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Привет Зенит! Меня зовут (Газфорт-2021), это мой ник, и я хочу поздравить вас с восьмым титулом. Ты заслуживаешь это !!! Поздравления .. Привет из Болгарии.

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