Talk:Cappadocian Greek

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Emylilpark.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 16:44, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

According to an article somewhere, Cappadocian is not dead.

We're discussing it on LiveJournal here: http://www.livejournal.com/community/linguaphiles/1705379.html. If someone can find the original Dutch-language article online, great. LudwigVan 30 June 2005 22:29 (UTC)

• A comment has already been added to the main page, but I'd like to see the article if it's available. LudwigVan 30 June 2005 22:30 (UTC)

the live journal seems original research

The text from live journal follows: "Ghent linguist discovers language previously thought extinct in Greece. The Ghent linguist Mark Janse has discovered inhabitants of Greece who speak Cappadocian, a minority language that disappeared from Turkey in the 1920s and hadn't been sighted in Greece since the 1960s. In the 20s of the previous century, the Cappadocians were forcibly extradited from Turkey to Greece, and gave up their language in order to avoid discrimination. "The first generation of Cappadocians kept using the language in intimate circles, but Greek became the lingua franca towards the outside world," according to Janse, who is internationally considered the foremost authority on Cappadocian. "The next generation was more of less forbidden to speak the language to prevent discrimination and encourage social integration." Since then, the Turkish-sounding Cappadocian language was considered one of the many threatened with extinction. Janse has now discovered new speakers in Greece: third-generation middle-aged immigrants who speak an uncontaminated form and who are proud of their language. The Cappadocians are descended from the Hittites in Anatolia, but became hellenized after the conquest of Asia Minor by Alexander the Great. After the victory of the Turks over the Byzantine forces at the Battle of Manzikert (1071), they became turkified. After the fall of Smyrna in 1922 the Cappadocians were forced to emigrate to Greece, where they soon repressed their language. In Greece, a part of the Ottoman Empire until the 1930s, they and their Greek-Turkish mixed language tongue weren't precisely welcomed either. This find is a big deal in a period of time where an estimated 50 to 90 percent of the 6,000 languages on Earth is threatened with extinction. Additionally, Cappadocian bears living witness to a peaceful co-existence of Greeks and Turks, who are traditionally considered sworn enemies," according the the university. Together with a colleague from Patras University in Greece, Janse will be composing a grammar and dictionary, and gathering original Cappadocian texts."

... no comments.  ;-). I think the author confuses "Cappadocian Greek language" with "Caramanlidika". I reverted again the dialects of Cappadocian Greek language to the correct ones. A poor workman blames 06:45, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

I don't know the scientific credentials of A poor workman blames, but I know (because I had specifically asked him to reread these articles on a very specialised topic) who is 213.118.63.207, a main contributor to the articles Cappadocian Greek language here and of cappadocien on the French wikipedia: Mark Janse (mail m.janse@roac.nl) himself... --Pylambert 11:41, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Pylambert, just because one reference says that Greeks from the mainland were hostile to what in their eyes was like mixed greek-turkish, doesn't mean that it was linguistically a "Greek-Turkish" language. Literally all sources I've run into describe it either as a Greek language or as a dialect of modern Greek (see also the ethlonogue classification. So don't revert again. Miskin 10:14, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Greek poem

Here is some lines from a Greek poem of Sultan Walad, but I am not sure how to pronounce the words (since usually the vowel markers were not put in the Perso-Arabic script):

اسی فیلس ایمنا یاتی زوتی اغو ایسینا افندی دنسی فیلو ککس انکاثنی ککلی بندا امینا ذس اسی اغلیکی میلو ولد لاستو مولنا تتریا ایغو ثور و ثلاساکالی بیلو

If anyone has a translation of Sultan Walad's Greek poems, please also send it to me. --alidoostzadeh (talk) 20:24, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/Play/rumiwalad.html Opoudjis (talk) 09:41, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

WHY IS THIS NOT THE NATIONAL LANGUAGE OF CYPRUS? I guess that would make too much sense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.183.166.104 (talk) 20:21, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Because people in Cyprus don't speak it?? 64.88.170.40 (talk) 18:40, 1 June 2010 (UTC).64.88.170.40 (talk) 18:40, 1 June 2010 (UTC).64.88.170.40 (talk) 18:40, 1 June 2010 (UTC).64.88.170.40 (talk) 18:40, 1 June 2010 (UTC).64.88.170.40 (talk) 18:40, 1 June 2010 (UTC).64.88.170.40 (talk) 18:40, 1 June 2010 (UTC).64.88.170.40 (talk) 18:40, 1 June 2010 (UTC).64.88.170.40 (talk) 18:40, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Instead of force to immigrate

Instead of force to immigrate we should use population exchange between greece and turkey. This is better. Because this is an agreement with Turkey and Greece. Maverick16 (talk) 21:32, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

An agreement by the sovereigns doesn't make it voluntary on the part of the Cappadocians. —Tamfang (talk) 16:04, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Moutalasski

Hello, i want to ask about Cappadocian greek village of Moutalasski, from where comes Aristotelis Onasis. Was Moutalasski greek speaking village or turkish? Thabk you.--213.151.217.145 (talk) 12:00, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Byzantine vocabulary

The Greek element in Cappadocian is to a large extent Byzantine, e.g. θír or tír "door" from (Ancient and) Byzantine Greek θύρα (Modern Greek θύρα), ....

This example does not illuminate much. Am I overlooking some obvious difference between Byzantine θύρα and Modern θύρα? —Tamfang (talk) 16:06, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, the pronunciation: Byzantine (Medieval) Greek [ˈθyɾa], Modern Greek [ˈθiɾa]. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 13:34, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

Samples

Hello! Maybe it would be good to add some samples of Cappadocian on this page. Fkitselis (talk) 08:42, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

Map

There is a concern that the map did not accurately depict the language distribution of Demotic within Greece. Since the point of this map is to show the Anatolian distributions of the various Asia Minor Greek dialects (until 1923) as recorded by Dawkins (see map citation), I think we can resolve things by limiting the picture only to Anatolia. Below I have pasted a discussion about this topic from my talk page,

Δρ.Κ. Picture is cited. See citation. The book cited is public domain and the citation links to a full text version. Piledhighandeep (talk) 06:49, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, but the source from 1916 may well be outdated. Since this involves many articles, instead of edit-warring across all of them, I suggest you open a discussion in one of the talkpages of the affected articles where this issue can be discussed and resolved. I am not going to revert you further but I will inform the other editor about this so that he can participate. In the meantime please do not add the map to any other articles until we obtain some resolution to this. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 06:58, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Δρ.Κ. The source from 1916 is the last linguist to have studied the Cappadocian Greeks before the exchange of populations. There can be no more recent source. This was a Cambridge linguist and he records all the villages. This is the standard source for this information. It is one of the main references listed at the bottom of both articles. The user objects to the image, because the yellow shading does not cover all of Greece. We can put a new image focussing on Asia Minor only. Piledhighandeep (talk) 07:03, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Fine. This should be part of the discussion. Can we move it to an article talkpage? I would also like to participate to try to find some solution. But please take your time. There is no rush and I will be going offline in a short while. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 07:11, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Great. I have placed the above discussion on the Cappadocian Greek talk page. Piledhighandeep (talk) 07:21, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Hi, User:Alexikoua, it would be great if you could offer your thoughts. Is this a solution to your concerns? Piledhighandeep (talk) 09:26, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Hi everyone! The current version with the European part excluded appears in general ok, but I'll check the correspondent bibliography on the subject if minor adjustments are needed.Alexikoua (talk) 13:54, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. Each of the labeled violet cities (such as Iconium) is meant to denote a major urban area containing Greek speakers. Apologies for contributing to the confusion. Piledhighandeep (talk) 18:50, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Cappadocian Greek. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20131213095022/http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/Play/rumiwalad.html to http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/Play/rumiwalad.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—^{cyberbot II}_{Talk to my owner:Online} 18:56, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

classicizing literary Greek

This article says "Unfortunately, there are next to no written documents in Medieval or early Modern Cappadocian, as the language was, and still essentially is, a spoken language only. Those educated to read and write, such as priests, would do so in the more classicizing literary Greek."

I'm not trying to be funny, but "classicizing literary Greek?" Does the editor mean Koine Greek?

I am also very confused how we know so much about the developments of a spoken language that we don't have any written documents to study (As we do with Beowulf or Chaucer) - If Dawkins is the first (only?) source documenting this language in 1871, then why is he being cited as a source for its development since 1071? The logic of this article was extremely confusing for me.

The sources for the "macaronic language" poems of Rumi are a bit weak for a topic that I would like to research further. I did not find them helpful.

Isn't it possible the Cappadocians spoke any number of languages during this unaccounted for time period of about 800 years? Did they speak only a form of Greek? Maybe they spoke Latin, Armenian, Aramaic, Syriac - how do we know? Seraphimsystem (talk) 06:50, 18 March 2017 (UTC)