Talk:Bay'ah (Ahmadiyya)
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Merge
[edit]I recommend this page and bay'ah be merged. They are both stubby and deal with the same subject. They are redundant. em zilch (talk) 18:59, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
- I think they should not be merged, as international baait is a specific ahmadiyya related term and event. It is true that it goes back to the bayah in early islam, and therefore the redundency, but it is still distinct. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TorontoCity (talk • contribs) 19:20, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
- I am aware that "International Baait" is an Ahmadiyya thing, but it is a subdivision of bay'ah. Right now, there's almost nothing on Bay'ah; making a section on the Ahmadiyya practice part of the page only seems logical. Naahid بنت الغلان Click to talk 23:28, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
- As you see this topic is still growing and it seems it will become a large article. That the byah article is small is not enough argument for the merger of both. I hope that people will enlarge that article too. The history of bayah by the prophet is a lengthy subject. Just wait and see. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TorontoCity (talk • contribs) 23:02, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
- Can we merge these now? Or are we still waiting on something? Tripleahg (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 02:20, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
- To summarize:it seems that there was a 2008 proposal which was objected to; then a 2013 proposal for which no new case was made. On those grounds, a merge doesn't seem reasonable, so after 3.5 years I will remove the merge templates. Klbrain (talk) 19:19, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
- Can we merge these now? Or are we still waiting on something? Tripleahg (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 02:20, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
Pentecost
[edit]In 1993 and 1994 the fourth Caliph of the Ahmadiyya Community Mirza Tahir Ahmad equated the International Bay'ah with the Pentecost and said that if anything, the original Pentecost must have been a vision prophesying the Bay'ah. He stated that there is no evidence of it being an historical occurrence but that 'Nobody can deny its factual occurrence' [Ahmad, Hazrat Mirza Tahir - Khalifatul Masih IV. Address on the occasion of the first International Bay'ah. 1 August 1993, Surrey - United Kingdom]. In the Bay'ah people are initiated at the hand of one man simultaneously in diverse languages through the power of the Holy Ghost. This international oath of allegiance takes place every year at the annual gatherings of Ahmadis. I have added this fact to the article but it has been deleted twice and I have received a message from the user saying that the Caliph's opinion (who holds the position of supreme undisputed head within the Ahmadiyya Community) could be misinterpreted since his successor has claimed nothing of the sort. I believe it is vitally important to mention the impact of the ceremony with relation to the Christian event of Pentecost and its significance to the community as such. —Preceding unsigned comment added by SEMTEX85 (talk • contribs) 02:20, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- You have misunderstood me as well. But anyways, the point was that the statement of the fourth caliph could be misunderstood and the ceremony equated with christian conversions. Of course the statement of a caliph is the position of the community as long as another statement by him or a successor does not change it. So there is no change of position of the community if the successor takes no new position. Dawoodmajoka (talk) 13:37, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Number of converts
[edit]the chart presented in this section is highly disputed even within the Ahmadiyya community therefore I think it is not proper to include it. Moreover it is outdated the official figure of Ahmadis/converts given today is simply 'exceeds tens of millions' [1]Sirius86 (talk) 14:47, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
- As I said, disputed material should be taken to Talk, not just binned because you don't like it. If there are sources reliable by Wikipedia standards that differ from the official figures, they should be quoted. The question is, where did the following table come from, and why should it be discounted? Gordonofcartoon (talk) 16:45, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
- It is wrong to say that the figures are disputed within in the Ahmadiyya community. The figures are taken from the official organ of the community and printed in all their publications. Both in their main organ in pakistan, the "Daily Alfazl" as well as the international organ "Alfazl International" from london. Most importantly, the figures are announced each year by the head of the community, the caliph, himself. Thus to say that the figures are disputed tentamounts to saying that the words of caliph are disputed within the community! It would be quite informative to see who within the community holds such a position!
- The number of ahmadiyyas today and the number of converts are two different things! TorontoCity (talk) 23:30, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
The year by year count of converts at the occasion of the international Bai'at as officially given by the community are as follows
| Year | Number of Converts | Reference |
|---|---|---|
| 2008 | 354,638 | Daily Alfazl, Pakistan, 30. July 2008 |
| 2007 | 261,969 | Daily Alfazl, Pakistan, 1. Aug. 2007 |
| 2006 | 293,881 | Daily Alfazl, Pakistan, 2. Aug. 2006 |
| 2005 | 209,799 | Daily Alfazl, Pakistan, 3. Aug. 2005 |
| 2004 | 304,910 | same reference as 2005 for the years 1993-2004 |
| 2003 | 892,403 | |
| 2002 | 20,654,000 | |
| 2001 | 81,006,721 | |
| 2000 | 41,308,975 | |
| 1999 | 10,820,226 | |
| 1998 | 5,004,591 | |
| 1997 | 3,004,585 | |
| 1996 | 1,602,721 | |
| 1995 | 847,725 | |
| 1994 | 421,753 | |
| 1993 | 204,308 | |
| Total | 167,193,205 |
The above figures may well be official but they are definitely not undisputed within the community. 200 million is the number of covnerts in 2002 alone, not the total population of Ahmadis worldwide. The total figure ought to be nearer 400 million.
- No, I think you are misreading. It is 20 million in 2002 not 200 million. Peaceworld111 (talk) 13:02, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
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