Talk:École secondaire publique De La Salle

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Move to French name

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move debate was move. Deenoe 17:11, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As there is some question as to whether the move is warranted, please discuss this particular case prior to moving. -- Samir धर्म 02:50, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree with any move. See Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) --Ardenn 02:54, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

Oppose per above. Ardenn 03:04, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Support per above. I have just never seen any news or any press release to English medias of this school using the English equivalent. --Deenoe 03:06, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Support. WP:EiC#French names naming convention is to use the official French name UNLESS another name is more commonly used. --Usgnus 03:39, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) superceeds that, IMHO. Ardenn 03:49, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  - Wikipedia:Naming conventions (schools) in my opinion superceeds the "use English". It says to use the full name provided by the school itself, which is the French name. The school puts this name on Press Releases that are in english, adressed to English media... Deenoe 03:53, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    - It doesn't, as it's only a proposed guideline. Ardenn 16:27, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      - Isn't the Use English a proposed guideline too? --Deenoe 16:34, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        No. Ardenn 16:45, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        You are right on this point, the Use School convention is not valid. --Deenoe 19:40, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        I disagree. That was the purpose for WP:EiC coming up with a definite rule about this -- I wanted to ensure someone didn't pull out the Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) argument which would result in us renaming all our French or Aboriginal school names; don't ignore or misjudge the hard work we've put into defining WP:EiC. Just cause a generic rule or guideline exists elsewhere, the WP:EiC-specific rules and guidelines we come up with should still apply to our schools. Believe it or not, the problem is partially because most of us have at least a rudimentary understanding of French. Example: would anyone ever attempt to rename Quilchena Elementary School to Land of Many Waters School? Absolutately not! Why are we even contemplating having a discussion and vote in this case??? Move this article back to the official name! --Stephane Charette 22:06, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        Never said that the WP:EiC French rule was not valid. If you read carefully I used it as an argument. My comment was about the School clause in the WP:Naming Convention. I definitly think that we should stick with the WP:EiC French clause. --Deenoe 22:11, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        What I meant was that I disagree with where all the comments in this thread were leading, not that I disagree with your specific comment. The thread started by Usgnus saying "use WP:EiC naming conventions", the next comment was "Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) superceeds that", followed by "Wikipedia:Naming conventions (schools) in my opinion superceeds", etc... Use the most precise rules/guidelines that we have for dealing with this -- which in this case, brings us back to the first level comment saying "use WP:EiC-described naming conventions." There was a reason why the WP:EiC project was setup this way, and why these discussions took place and were documented...to try and prevent situations like this. Un francophone parmis tant d'autre, Stephane Charette 22:21, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        I know that about the WP:EiC. I am participant of the project. I think it's a great thing and I dont see why we shouldn't stick to those rules, considering the article is part of the project. Un autre francophone parmis tant d'autres, un francophone fier. --Deenoe 22:32, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  - Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) guidelines support this move. Please see my comments in the discussion section. Kurieeto 17:12, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom, Usgnus, and my comments in discussion below. Kurieeto 16:36, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Please use common sense -- people who are looking up the school will look for the school by name -- not what the name would be if it were translated into English! This was discussed and decided at WP:EiC. --Stephane Charette 21:51, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Add any additional comments

I agree with the move to the French name. I go to this school, and we are French. The name is our PRIDE. We talk on the news about us, using the French name. Also, the Wiki Convention says

"Convention: school article titles should use the full official name of the school as provided by the school itself. "

The french name IS the official name.

--Deenoe 02:57, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I almost must say that the WikiProject Education In Canada's convention on French Names and Wikipedia's convention are partially in conflict.

--Deenoe 03:35, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. There are dozens of schools and school districts in Canada that use French for the article title. Are we going to move them all? We really need to re-open the discussion over at WT:EiC. --Usgnus 03:57, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't believe there is any debate to re-open. Those schools are french. They have a French Name. It's the OFFICIAL name... All the french schools I hear about on the news, they use the french name. It's like if we would say Pathetic Symphony instead of "La symphonie pathétique". They choosed that name.
  - Actually, WP conventions are not the same as real-world conventions. For example, in WP, the quotation marks always go inside the closing period in the sentence, unless the period is part of the quotation. Naming is covered by guidelines and not policy, so the names of these schools will be determined by consensus, not the official name necessarily. See University of Montreal. --Usgnus 04:10, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    - University of Montreal is different. The establishement itself uses the name University of Montreal very often. But meh, let the wikipedians decide. However, there is a point I would like to bring up. There is a school, in Sudbury, Ontario which is in the same province than the school that we are debating on right now, that is called La Salle Secondary School. I do not wish to have confusions with the two names considering they are both in Ontario so I think that's another reason why we should go with the French official name. --Deenoe 05:42, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      - That's what disambiguation pages are for. Ardenn 16:28, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In regard to Usgnus's comment about the name most commonly used, a Google search of pages only from Canada yields this result: "De La Salle Secondary School", 7 hits. [1] "École secondaire publique De La Salle", English language results only, 177 hits. [2]. Kurieeto 16:36, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- Furthermore, Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) states, "If a native spelling uses different letters than the most common English spelling (eg, Wien vs. Vienna), only use the native spelling as an article title if it is more commonly used in English than the anglicized form.". As demonstrated by the Google search presented above, the native spelling is clearly more commonly used in English than the anglicized form. Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) guidelines support this move. Kurieeto 17:12, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

With all points shown, I think we could clearly put the French name of the school as the title of the article, and on the first line of the article replace École secondaire publique De La Salle by École secondaire publique De La Salle (De La Salle secondary school). --Deenoe 17:06, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- I disagree with even trying to guess as to what the English translation would be. Unless the school or the school board actually ever use the name De La Salle secondary school (and if they ever did, they would probably use De La Salle Secondary School), it isn't our place to guess. Only mention it and include it if it is used. --Stephane Charette 22:11, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  - It's been never used by the school. Like the Google test shows... English Results on De La Salle Secondary School gives 7 hits, the English results with the French name are 177 hits. --Deenoe 22:17, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

École secondaire publique De La Salle

I've moved the article back to the French name, and consider this closed. In my opinion, there seems to be consensus on this. Redirect pages are De La Salle Secondary School and Ecole secondaire publique De La Salle. There's a link to the page from the La Salle disambiguation page. De La Salle redirects to the La Salle dab page -- Samir धर्म 06:59, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]