Talk:Latins

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Latins article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1

European history High‑importance

	Europe portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject European history, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the history of Europe on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.European historyWikipedia:WikiProject European historyTemplate:WikiProject European historyEuropean history articles
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

History Mid‑importance

	History portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject History, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the subject of History on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.HistoryWikipedia:WikiProject HistoryTemplate:WikiProject Historyhistory articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Latin High‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Latin, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Latin on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.LatinWikipedia:WikiProject LatinTemplate:WikiProject LatinLatin articles
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the importance scale.

Middle Ages Mid‑importance

	Middle Ages portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Middle Ages, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Middle Ages on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Middle AgesWikipedia:WikiProject Middle AgesTemplate:WikiProject Middle AgesMiddle Ages articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Sociology Mid‑importance

	Society portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Sociology, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of sociology on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SociologyWikipedia:WikiProject SociologyTemplate:WikiProject Sociologysociology articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Latins (Italic tribe) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 21:02, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This article is still problematic

While the contents of the article that were the result of content forking and original research have been removed, the article still has problems. It is basically not an article about a specific thing, but rather an article about what various things were called. Wikipedia is not a dictionary. The contents of this article is better suited for a disambiguation page. That content has already been transferred to Latin (disambiguation). As the scope of the title seriously overlaps with Latins (Italic tribe), this article therefore serves no purpose other serving as a source of confusion for readers. Krakkos (talk) 14:00, 11 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Trimming and moving

This article used to cover a whole variety of things called "Latin". This was not in accordance with WP:NAD. Most of the content was forked from other articles, in particular Latins (Italic tribe). The scope of the article had serious overlap with Romance peoples and Latins (Italic tribe). Much of the article lacked sources, and none of the sources that existed covered the topic "Latins" as a whole. Instead we had sources covering a whole range of separate issues that were synthesized through obvious original research. I have therefore trimmed the article down to the topic that was actually addressed directly by the sources, namely the demonym/exonym Latin as it was used during the Middle Ages. Unlike the other topics previously addressed in the article, this medieval name is not addressed in detail in other articles, meaning that content forking and scope issues will not be a problem. I've moved the page to a more specific title so as to avoid confusion with Latins (Italic tribe) and ~Romance peoples. Krakkos (talk) 14:38, 12 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 14 July 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: withdrawn. Dekimasuよ! 17:39, 15 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Latins → Latins (Middle Ages) – This article currently treats the name Latins in various, often unrelated, circumstances, including the following:

Members of the Italic tribe called Latins (This topic has a separate article at Latins (Italic tribe))
Citizens of the Roman Empire, irrespective of tribal/ethnic affilition (Covered at Demography of the Roman Empire)
Followers of the Latin Church in the Middle Ages, irrespective of ethnicity, particularly those who participated in the Crusades. (Not covered in a separate article)
Modern ethnic groups speaking Romance languages (Covered at Latin peoples)
Citizens of Romance-speaking Europe (Covered at Romance-speaking Europe)
Citizens of Latin America (Covered at Latin Americans)
The region of Italy in which the Italic tribe Latins lived (Covered at Latium and Lazio)

None of the sources used in the article cover even a resemblance of this scope. It is rather a result of a variety of sources about entirely separate topics that have been synthesized together into an all-encompassing article about everything called Latin. This in violation of WP:NAD, which states that articles are supposed to be "grouped into articles based on what they are, not what they are called by." The article is basically composed of content which has been forked, from Latins (Italic tribe), Italic peoples and Latin Americans especially. I recently went through the articles linking to this article, and noticed that almost all of these links rather belonged to Latins (Italic tribe) and Italic peoples. The only articles that actually links to this article now are those that treat the name Latin in a medieval context related to the Crusades. This can be seen here. It is therefore reasonable to get rid of the synthesized and forked material and reduce the scope to covering the medieval ethnonym. Such an article would resemble something like this, but could be expanded. It would then be advisable to move the article to Latins (Middle Ages) so as to avoid confusion with Latins (Italic tribe) and Latin peoples. The topics previously synthesized together in this article are already dealt with at Latin (disambiguation), which is sufficient. Krakkos (talk) 14:01, 14 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. There are several problems with this proposal. For one thing, none of the policies cited in support of it actually relate to moving the page to a different title. If it were nothing more than a dictionary definition, then the contents would need to be transcluded to Wiktionary, not moved to a different title here. But this clearly isn't a dictionary definition. By discussing the concept of Latinitas through time and distinguishing how it's been applied to different groups, it far exceeds what would normally be found in a dictionary, even if you consider it to be mainly about the word. I note that while the nominator describes these as unrelated, they clearly are related, in that they all ultimately derive from and refer back to the Latin people, their language, and the Roman culture that arose from Latin roots.

This also isn't a case of synthesis, which describes the combining of separate facts to create a novel proposition that's not supported by any source. Describing the different uses of the concept isn't a novel proposition. And this definitely isn't a content fork, which would involve duplication of material, rather than a collection of summaries of related concepts that are individually discussed in-depth in separate articles. But neither of these policies have to do with moving articles to more appropriate names. If they applied, which they don't, they would be relevant if the article were proposed for deletion or merger into other articles. The proposed name isn't supported by any of these policies. It also makes no sense, since the article covers all time periods, not the middle ages specifically. This is a useful article. Could it be better? Undoubtedly. Could it have a better title? Perhaps. But the proposed title certainly isn't an improvement.

Withdraw. Since an article titled Latins (Middle Ages) exists now, moving this page to the very same title makes little sense. Though problematic elements of the article highlighted above remain, this move proposal is no longer a good solution to these problems. Krakkos (talk) 14:45, 15 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

"Latin peoples" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Latin peoples has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 May 4 § Latin peoples until a consensus is reached. Joy (talk) 13:19, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]