Talk:Hayes Barnard

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Hayes Barnard is the CEO of Paramount Equity. Several partner companies of Paramount Equity have Wikipedia entries for their CEO's, I'm not clear as to why this was scheduled for deletion.

Anon8781 (talk) 21:28, 11 January 2012 (UTC)anon8781

Contested deletion

This article should not be speedily deleted for lack of asserted importance because <replace these words with your reason>. — Anon8781 (talk) 21:31, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia allows for CEO's of various companies to have a Wikipedia entry. Is there a specific reason why the CEO of Paramount Equity cannot be an entry?

Article clean up to remove the Paid editing tag

Hi. I am Jesse, and I work for Hayes Barnard and GoodLeap. I would like to work together with a Wikipedia editor to clean up the Hayes Barnard biography so that the paid editing tag can be removed. I have outlined the following suggestions how to accomplish that, which follow below. I am also open to hearing any additional suggestions so the article adheres to all Wikipedia standards about neutrality and promotional language. Anything else you feel will improve the article so it can be considered a quality biography of a living person on Wikipedia will be happily received.

• Please change the Introduction to the following, which removes the subjective "known for his role as..." and takes out extra details that should not be in the intro:

Hayes Barnard is an American entrepreneur, business owner and philanthropist. He is currently the founder, chairman, and CEO of GoodLeap, a technology-based finance company. Barnard is also the founder, chairman, and CEO of GivePower, a nonprofit that facilitates solar powered projects to provide clean water and energy systems to underserved communities.

• In the fifth paragraph in the Career section, the mention of rebranding is redundant, it was already mentioned in the first paragraph of the Career section; and the last part of this paragraph provides too much detail about the company, which does not need to be in the article about Barnard. Please replace the fifth paragraph the following:

In 2016, Barnard left SolarCity and took on the role of chairman and CEO of Loanpal, a financial technology platform that provides financing for clean energy products. Thank you for your help, JesseGoodLeap (talk) 15:06, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

 Done. Heartmusic678 (talk) 13:52, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Early life, personal life and rebranding

Hi, this is Jesse again. I am requesting a few straightforward edits. I am calling on Clayoquot to look them over, since she advised me a few weeks ago on how to best improve the article, and I took her advice. Now I am hoping she can continue to be helpful.

• Please add a new "Early life and education" section directly following the introduction, with the following content:

Barnard was born and raised by a single mother in Creve Coeur, Missouri, a suburb of St. Louis. He graduated from the University of Missouri with a degree in management and marketing.

• Please add a new "Personal life" section at the end of the article with the following sentence:

Barnard lives in Austin, Texas with his wife and three children.

• Please add the following sentence after the sentence that begins "In 2016, Barnard left SolarCity..."

In 2021, Loanpal rebranded to GoodLeap. Thank you for all your help. JesseGoodLeap (talk) 16:11, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

Done. I left out the Crunchbase source as the Wikipedia community considers it to be generally unreliable.[1] Does the Bloomberg source fully support the education claim? If not, could you please suggest a source that does? LinkedIn would be fine as a source for this kind of thing. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 05:20, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

References

Divide Career section and add Philanthropy section

Hi, this is Jesse again. Thank you Clayoquot for implementing my edit request above. Sorry about the Crunchbase source, I will be sure to not use it in the future. The Bloomberg source supports the BA from the University of Missouri, but not the specific degree in management and marketing. But here is the LinkedIn source that does. https://www.linkedin.com/in/hayesbarnard/ I have a few additional edits I would like made to the page, as follows:

1. Please divide the Career section into the following subheadings:
   • Oracle, Paramount Equity Mortgage and Paramount Solar. This is the first sub-heading at the top.
   • SolarCity. This heading begins right after the paragraph that begins with "In 2011, Guthy-Renker..."
   • Loanpal and GoodLeap. This comes right after the paragraph that begins with "In 2014, Barnard founded GivePower..."
   • GoodFinch. This comes directly before the last sentence: In 2020, Barnard stared an asset management fund, GoodFinch.
2. Please create a new section called Philanthropy, and move the following 2 paragraphs from the Career section into the Philanthropy section.
   • The paragraph that begins with "In 2014, Barnard founded GivePower..."
   • The paragraph that begins with "In 2018, Barnard's non-profit organization..."
3. Please add the following to the beginning of the new Philanthropy section: In 2012, while serving as CEO of Paramount Equity, Barnard launched the Hayes Barnard-Paramount Equity Young Entrepreneurs Scholarship, or Y.E.S., for inspiring young business students. The scholarship was designed to support young entrepreneurs as they sought to start their own businesses.

References

Thanks so much. JesseGoodLeap (talk) 17:52, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

Hi Jesse. I added the LinkedIn reference, thanks. I'm declining this request for various reasons. Regarding adding headings to the Career section, I don't think these headings will be meaningful to most readers who will be unfamiliar with the company names. Regarding adding a Philanthropy section, starting a non-profit organization and having it do good things is what I think of as volunteer work rather than philanthropy. Overall, the suggested edits are starting to lean towards puffery territory. I would appreciate it if you could restrict your requests to factual corrections and major problems. Best wishes, Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 05:40, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

Sourcing for "philanthropist"

@JesseGoodLeap: and others, can you point me to independent sources that describe Barnard as a philanthropist? He's done some great non-profit work - there is no question about that - but for a claim to be in the first sentence of an article it needs strong sourcing and the claim needs to be prominent within those sources. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 17:44, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Since no sourcing has been provided for this claim, I'll remove it from the lead section until strong sourcing exists. Please don't take this as "Wikipedia doesn't think Barnard is a generous person" or even "Clayoquot doesn't think Barnard is a generous person". The issue is that the first sentence of an article says what the person is known for. This means there is a high bar for including any descriptors in the first sentence - they not only have to be true, they also have to be what the person is known for. The relevant Wikipedia guideline is here. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 06:30, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

Early life, Career and Personal life

Hello, it's Jesse again. I have a few requests as follows:

• In the Early life and education section, please add the following two sentences after "St. Louis" in the first sentence, replacing the last sentence, as follows:

His father left when Barnard was three years old. He won a football scholarship to Central Missouri State, but was injured during his freshman year and subsequently transferred to the University of Missouri, where he graduated with a degree in management and marketing.

• At the beginning of the Career section please add the following sentence:

In 1995 Barnard went to San Francisco to be a part of the hi-tech boom. His first jobs were manning booths at trade shows.

• In the next paragraph which begins "In September 2003," replace "which provided" with "one of the first to provide online. The sentence ends with "residential home loans."
• Please move the entire paragraph that begins "In 2018, Barnard's non-profit organization..." to the end of the paragraph that begins "In 2014, Barnard founded GivePower...", after the words "...and Latin America." The paragraph fits better logically placed here, where the discussion about GivePower is found.
• At the end of the paragraph that begins "In 2016, Barnard left SolarCity..." please add the following phrase, after placing a comma after the word "GoodLeap," "good for life, earth and prosperity." (keep the quotation marks)
• At the end of the Personal life section, please add the following two sentences:

In 2022 Forbes ranked Barnard #271 on the Forbes 400 list with an estimated net worth of $4 billion. In 2020 he scored the highest rank of 10 on the Forbes list of self-made billionaires.

References

If the above edits are okay with EMsmile I am happy to make them directly. Thank you for all your help. JesseGoodLeap (talk) 14:26, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

that's fine by me (note sure if you need my approval...). EMsmile (talk) 21:44, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Add University of Texas Commencement

Hi. Please add the following as a new paragraph to the "Personal life" section or let me know if this is approved for me to make the addition:

In May 2023, Barnard delivered the keynote address at the 140th commencement of the University of Texas at Austin.

References

Thanks! JesseGoodLeap (talk) 18:32, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Go ahead: I have reviewed these proposed changes and suggest that you go ahead and make the proposed changes to the page. Lightoil (talk) 03:32, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

Thanks Lightoil for the go-ahead. I am making the edit now. JesseGoodLeap (talk) 17:44, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

Updates to Career and Early life

Hello. I would like to suggest the following three edits to add information and update the page, all based on the same Financial Times article.

• Please add the following sentence after the first sentence in the "Early life and education" section:

He was diagnosed with dyslexia when he was a child.

• In the Career section, please replace the fourth paragraph that begins "In 2016, Barnard left SolarCity…" with the following. Maintain the sources that are there now, and add the new source I am supplying:

After Tesla purchased SolarCity in November 2016, Barnard left to restructure his old mortgage business and turn it into a financial technology platform for sustainable solutions. In 2017 he launched Loanpal, a financial technology platform, which later became GoodLeap.

• Directly after the above paragraph, please add the following, fleshing out a bit the background of how Loanpal, and eventually GoodLeap, began:

In 2018, he told 1500 people in a theater in Sacramento his plans to build "the largest fintech company for sustainable solutions." His plan was to finance purchases of solar power systems for homeowners with little or no cash at competitive rates, paying back the loans over several years.

References

Thanks so much. JesseGoodLeap (talk) 14:08, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Reply 28-SEP-2023

  Clarification requested  

• The provided source exists behind a paywall. Please provide the verbatim text from the source which confirms the proposed information. You may use the |quote= parameter to accomplish this.
• Please place the revised edit request below this reply post at your earliest convenience. Please do not alter previously added text unless those alterations abide by the guidelines at WP:REDACT.

Regards,  Spintendo  22:04, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks Spintendo for helping out with this. I am happy to supply the quotes as you asked.

• Please add the following sentence after the first sentence in the "Early life and education" section:

He was diagnosed with dyslexia when he was a child.

• In the Career section, please replace the fourth paragraph that begins "In 2016, Barnard left SolarCity…" with the following. Maintain the sources that are there now, some of the information in the new sentence relies on the old sources, and add the new source I am supplying:

After Tesla purchased SolarCity in November 2016, Barnard left to restructure his old mortgage business and turn it into a financial technology platform for sustainable solutions. In 2017 he launched Loanpal, a financial technology platform, which later became GoodLeap.

• Directly after the above paragraph, please add the following, fleshing out a bit the background of how Loanpal, and eventually GoodLeap, began:

In 2018, he told 1500 people in a theater in Sacramento his plans to build "the largest fintech company for sustainable solutions." His plan was to finance purchases of solar power systems for homeowners with little or no cash at competitive rates, paying back the loans over several years.

References

Thanks again. If you need anything else, please let me know. JesseGoodLeap (talk) 19:03, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Time magazine/GoodLeap

Hello. Please remove the last sentence at the end of the "Career" section which begins "Growing numbers of GoodLeap customers…" The Time magazine source describes allegations made by consumers against many companies, including GoodLeap, but does not include Hayes in those allegations. Therefore, this story does not belong on the Hayes article. Thank you. JesseGoodLeap (talk) 12:49, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: I thinks the sentence is totally fine as he is the founder and the article even mentions him. Over the past few years, a handful of people got rich off of Americans who were told they could simultaneously save money and save the planet. For example, Hayes Barnard, GoodLeap’s founder and chairman, was named by Forbes as one of the 400 richest people in the world in 2023. The idea that we need to convince tens of thousands of Americans who can’t afford it to put solar on their rooftops shifts the responsibility for addressing the climate crisis from the entities who could really make a difference [[...]] and onto individuals who are good targets for financing companies., emphasis mine. If you disagree, please re-open the request and I'll let another reviewer take it. NotAGenious (talk) 15:47, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Thank you NotAGenious, I have reopened the request. The one mention of Barnard in the source is brought by the author as an example to illustrate a personal opinion. The only factual information to be derived from that paragraph is the fact that Barnard was named one of the 400 richest people by Forbes. He is not connected to the allegations, and therefore, they belong on the company page, which has already been added, but not on a BLP. Thanks again for your input, JesseGoodLeap (talk) 17:47, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

I've reworded the article to be more specific but I'm declining the request because it's Barnard's company and this is relevant information about the business model his company is using. (t · c) buidhe 03:14, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

The presence of this sentence on Barnard's page is an example of Wikipedia:Coatrack articles. The source for this statement, Time magazine, does not say that the alleged activities are part of the company's "business plan" or that Barnard had anything to do with these activities. The only place for this information is the GoodLeap page. In an effort to get more editors involved in this discussion I am pinging Lightoil, Clayoquot and Chidgk1. Thanks. JesseGoodLeap (talk) 14:34, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

I agree with what is said above, he is mentioned in the source and has tremendous influence in the company. Therefore, the sentence should be allowed to stay in the article. Lightoil (talk) 22:54, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

NotAGenious, buidhe and Lightoil, thanks again for all your input. I must admit, I am surprised by your conclusions and ask that you please reconsider this matter carefully, keeping in mind the sensitivities laid out in WP:BLP. The Time article covers allegations against GoodLeap and a dozen other companies, and the information is already included in the company's Wikipedia article. Barnard was not implicated in the allegations, and WP:BLPBALANCE specifically says the community should "beware of claims that rely on guilt by association". Similarly, WP:PUBLICFIGURE states that allegations should be included only if there are multiple reliable third-party sources documenting the allegation- in this case, there isn't even one, as the person in question is not being accused. Thank you again for your time and consideration. JesseGoodLeap (talk) 13:18, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

For some reason I didn't see your earlier ping until now. I agree with NotAGenious's decision. It's normal for an article about an entrepreneur to describe the businesses that the individual has founded. When we describe a business, we must do so neutrally as required by our NPOV policy. Policy forbids us from saying only nice things about a controversial business. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 23:59, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Clayoquot, thanks for weighing in as well.

Certainly, NPOV requires that every subject be covered accurately, regardless of whether the information is "nice" or not. In this case, the current story is appropriate for the article about the business, as you said, regardless of the favorability of the information for GoodLeap.

While a founder's article may also describe the company they founded in broad strokes, there is still the question of how much detail is appropriate for a BLP. In this case, these are allegations against several different companies (GoodLeap being only one on the list), covered by just one source. Including the allegations on Barnard's page at this time is not balanced or neutral, and deviates from Wikipedia’s policies. The only mention of Barnard in the Time article is to illustrate the author's personal opinion about the solar power industry, noting that he is on the Forbes list of 400 richest people. Barnard is not mentioned in the lawsuits or controversies, not named in them publicly, and Time magazine does not connect Barnard to the allegations. Adding this information to Barnard's BLP is an example of WP:COATRACK.

An examination of the articles at Category:American technology company founders supports this conclusion. No stories only about the companies appear on the BLPs of the corresponding CEOs. They are instead kept just to the company pages.

As you yourself said, Wikipedia strives for neutrality and cautions against content on BLPs that insinuate controversies that are not explicitly connected to the person in the sources. By mentioning allegations against GoodLeap on Barnard's article, that incorrect connection is made, violating WP:BLPBALANCE, and WP:PUBLICFIGURE and MOS:LABEL.

Please re-consider the removal of the sentence in light of these guidelines and Wikipedia best practices, as demonstrated on hundreds of other Wikipedia CEO pages. Re-pinging Chidgk1, buidhe and Lightoil as well. Thanks again for your attention. JesseGoodLeap (talk) 13:59, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

We've had a quite lengthy discussion here, involving many editors, and I frankly don't think anyone is going to change their opinions. If I'm not mistaken that there'd be another way to resolution, the next step would be to initate an RfC. NotAGenious (talk) 14:48, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

RfC about the Time Magazine source in Career section

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Does the last sentence at the end of the ‘Career’ section which begins "As of 2024, dozens of litigation and arbitration cases…" belong on this page? JesseGoodLeap (talk) 20:07, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

• Comment: (Summoned by bot) @JesseGoodLeap please reword your RfC question to be a neautrally worded question. I suggest you remove everything after the question mark from the RfC question. It would be more appropriate to state what is after the question mark as your response to the question in the discussion section. As written at the moment this RfC is a bad one and calls for a procuedural close. TarnishedPath^talk 01:53, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

  Thank you @TarnishedPath I have reworded the question to reflect neutrality. Thanks for your feedback. JesseGoodLeap (talk) 02:39, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

• No. This seems very out of place here and WP:COATRACK'ed. Barnard is not mentioned in the source in relation to litigation and arbitration. His only mention is in a part of the source which is moralising and giving an opinion about how he's rich and therefore rich people selling solar panels is some sort of unethical practice. This is entirely WP:UNDUE and leads the reader to engage in WP:SYNTH. TarnishedPath^talk 03:11, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
• No - (coming from WP:RFC/A) - This isn't a notable to the biography. The source doesn't even really talk about Barnard. This could be mentioned on an article about the company, but it's WP:UNDUE for this biography. Nemov (talk) 13:32, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
• No – (summoned from Yapperbot) – TarnishedPath summarizes my view on the content, but given how the linked source doesn't even explicitly mention Barnard, it's best to cut this out until an RS can explain a direct connection between Barnard and the information wishing to be included. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 15:59, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
• No - (Brought here from WP:RFC/A) Same sentiment as editors above, the RS doesn't specifically mention Barnard by name therefore we can't echo that here in his article. MaximusEditor (talk) 20:35, 17 May 2024 (UTC)