Talk:Albert Einstein

Albert Einstein has Albanian citizenship

In an interview given by HRH Géraldine Apponyi de Nagyappony Zog, Queen consort of the Albanians declared that King Zog had given Albanian citizenship and Albanian passport Mr. Albert Einstein. Please tick Albanian citizenship for Albert Einstein. Irvi Hyka (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 12:21, 5 July 2010 (UTC).

Do you have a source for that? ― A._di_M.^{3rd Dramaout} (formerly Army1987) 12:38, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes I have source for that: "In 1935, Albert Einstein benefited from Albanian help to transit through Europe to America. He stayed in Durrës on the Albanian coast for three days in the royal mansion and then, equipped with an Albanian passport, continued his journey towards the free world." form http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/main/features/18790/?tpl=299&ST1=Text&ST_T1=Article&ST_AS1=1&ST_max=1

All people in Albania know that Albert has received Albanian citizenship to escape the new regime in Germany. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 17:22, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Albert Einstein have Albanian citizenship http://www.raoulwallenberg.net/?en/press/albanian-muslims-sheltered.4808.htm Irvi Hyka (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:27, 5 July 2010 (UTC).

It's an interesting fact and we have two reliable sources. Anyone against entering it in the article? I'll wait a little and then tick him in the infobox and also in the history with the fact. Feel free to edit me afterwards: my English is professional not native. --_Sulmues ^{Let's talk} 12:30, 6 July 2010 (UTC) Made the edits [1]: really interesting fact and it covers the gap of the history of his life in the 1935 period.--_Sulmues ^{Let's talk} 14:20, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Both sources only mention an Albanian passport, not citizenship. Does the first automatically imply the second? (Note that an earlier claim of Albanian citizenship was considered vandalism, see Talk:Albert Einstein/Archive 15.)--Roentgenium111 (talk) 22:49, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

[[2]] explicitly lists all of AE's citizenships and does not mention Albania anywhere.--Roentgenium111 (talk) 23:04, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

If you have a RS explicitly say that Einstein had Albanian passport then yes, one imply the other. You can't have one country passport without being its citizen. This is international borders law and this is how any country works. Also, in all passports it's mentioned that you are a citizen of the country issued it and many time "the holder of this passport is citizen of X". In short, you can't have passport of one country without being its citizen. --Gilisa (talk) 08:07, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

But Einstein had still Swiss citizenship, I believe. Why should have been an Albanian passport necessary? Are there other sources, which confirm this interview? Otherwise it seems to be a quite weak source. For what reason should Einstein not have used his Swiss citizenship? And obviously Einstein emigrated already in 1933 to the USA. What should he have done in 1935 in Albania? It sounds a bit strange to me and seems to be a myth. --78.43.102.181 (talk) 16:08, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

I believe that the sources are more than sufficient. And it makes sense that he permanently went to the USA in 1935, since he got the US passport in 1940, after five years of permanent residency: that's US law. There is a lack of info for the 1933-1935 period though: we know that he went to the US for the first time in 1933, but we are not sure under what visa he was staying there during the 1933-1935 period, however those are the sources for now. And he had many citizenships, nothing wrong with that. Albania was a country that protected him and the Albanian monark was his friend. It seems like he needed an Albanian passport to go to the US in 1935, and chances are that he was going there under a different citizenship because he had stayed too much in the USA in the 1933-1935 period without a proper visa, and probably he needed another passport to be granted permanent residency in the USA. This is very smart of him or of the lawyer that advised him. However it is a little OR on my side as well. Still we have good sources to safely say that it was through Albania that he managed to go to the free world for the second time in 1935 after having gone for the first time in 1933.

Please don't remove WPSQ: The scope of WikiProject Albania is to follow all Albanians, be those natural citizens or naturalized ones (such as Einstein), and that's up to the members of the WikiProject only to decide. Read Wikipedia:WikiProject_Council/Guide/WikiProject#Define_the_scope. Einstein can be followed by whatever project puts him in the scope and that's a good thing for the article. WPSQ is not here by mistake. --Sulmues ^(talk) 18:43, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

It just seemed a bit nonsensical to me to have the wpsq banner here when Albania is mentioned once in the entire article in a small paragraph about how he used Albania to get to the US. Whether or not it's a good thing for the article to be under the Albanian wp is debatable; to my knowledge, the only edits from Albanian editors to this article came about when trying to prove that he was Albanian citizen at one point in his life. It's certainly not negative thing, but the A-class status of this article didn't come about through the edits of Albanian wp members. Regards. --Local hero ^talk 20:22, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

So am I right or am I wrong? If any Albanian editors are interested in editing this page, they know where to find it; the banner up there won't increase the number of edits from that project's members. --Local hero ^talk 15:03, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't think the sources are sufficient. In fact, assuming User:Gilisa's claim that "passport implies citizenship" is right, we have two contradicting sources, one ([3]) claiming that Einstein held an Albanian passport, the other ([4]) claiming he was not an Albanian citizen at any time. Personally, I consider the second source more reliable than the first. (Note that the other source given above supporting an Albanian passport ([5]) only calls this claim a "story", it doesn't claim it is right. So it's "1:1" on authoritative sources.)--Roentgenium111 (talk) 16:17, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

No, Einstein did not go to Albania in 1935, nor did he ever travel through Albania to get to the U.S., nor did he benefit from Albanian help in getting to America in 1935, or at any other time. On Oct. 7, 1933, he boarded the ocean liner Westmoreland in Southampton, England, traveling on his Swiss passport. He had come to Southampton from Belgium, where he had spent the summer [Isaacson, 424.]. Before that, he had spent the winter and spring of 1932-33 as a visiting lecturer at Cal Tech in Pasadena, Ca. He arrived in New York harbor on Oct. 17, 1933. He never returned to Europe after that. In 1935, rather than being (as the article has it) in Albania, he was living in Princeton. He had rented a house with Elsa in Princeton in late 1933, and he bought 112 Mercer St. that summer of 1935. His only trip in 1935 was a brief cruise to Bermuda from New York City in May, and upon his reentry from there he applied to become a U.S. citizen. If he was ever offered Albanian citizenship, it was honorary. He never carried an Albanian passport, never listed himself anywhere as an Albanian citizen, and was not in Albania (or anywhere in Europe) in 1935. -- Blastfinder52 (talk) 20:26, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

That sounds plausible, thanks. (Much more plausible than the claim of Einstein re-entering Europe without a valid passport in 1935, IMO.) Can you give a specific reference for his living in Princeton in 1935, eg. from the Isaacson biography? Then we can change the article accordingly. I don't have the biography myself, but apparently it does not even contain the phrase "Albania" (search for it on [6].)--Roentgenium111 (talk) 22:30, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

The events of 1935, including the trip to Bermuda and the purchase of 112 Mercer St., are on page 437 of the Isaacson biography. -- Blastfinder52 (talk) 04:30, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

I have a second source [7], which is much more detailed than the first but that says that the Albanian citizenship was given in 1931 not in 1935 (it seems like Queen Geraldine's erroneous mentioning of 1935 has made a mess). According to this source in 1931 Einstein seems to have gone to the US for the first time and in 1932 for the second one both times on an Albanian passport. The source also says that the passport has been confiscated by Nazi Germany. I don't know if this is wp:fringe: Bardhyl Berberi is a journalist and his findings are based on the Central Archives of Albania. I will detail a little further. --Sulmues ^(talk) 04:49, 5 September 2010 (UTC) Ok, here's what it says: Jani Basho, personal doctor of Zog of Albania since 1928, in 1931 brought Zog for a medical visit in Vienna, where he met with a community of Albanians of Vienna, inclusive of Alexander Moissi. They made him the request to intervene with the king to give Einstein the Albanian citizenship because the scientist' life was in danger from the nazis. The second testimony is that of former employee of the Albanian National Bank Ajeti Bega, who claimed to have met Einstein personally and brought him to the office of the bank's director, then an Italian citizen. According to Bega, on 9 April 1931 Einstein deposited a check in the bank, which was a gift from Zog of Albania. On April 10 1931 Jani Basho received a permission to bring Einstein with him to Pogradec, his town of birth, and later Einstein has had the Albanian passport. Einstein went to the US for the first time in december 1931 on the Albanian passport and also a second time in 1932. Only at the end of 1932 he's received a Swiss passport and travelled definitively to the US. The Basho family considered Einstein a close family friend and Jovan Basho, descendant of Jani Basho, well known doctor and professor, keeps a big photo of Einstein to this day in his living room.--Sulmues ^(talk) 05:04, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

From his biographers in the Einstein archive in Jerusalem, Einstein seems to have been issued a German passport dated 18 November 1930 but he has never used it. In fact that passport was annulled by Germany. The Swiss passport has been issued on 08 November 1932 by the New York Consulate of Switzerland. The question is: On what passport did Einstein go to New York in November 1932 since he couldn't use the German one? My source has the answer: On an Albanian passport issued in April 1931. Please let me know your thoughts and I'll enter this source. I apologize for not having made a full due diligence research on all the sources with my first entry. --Sulmues ^(talk) 05:27, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

No, this is all completely wrong. People develop all sorts of tales about Einstein that simply are not true. Einstein's first trip to America was in 1921 (not 1931, as you say). For his second trip to America, Einstein took a train, in late November 1930, from Berlin (where his stepdaughter had just gotten married) to Antwerp, Belgium, where he boarded a boat for New York. Einstein arrived in New York in early December 1930 [See "Einstein Consents to Face Reporters," the New York Times, Dec. 10, 1930, available online.] He traveled (as he had in 1921) using his SWISS passport (and citizenship) that he had held for three decades, ever since he was a student in Zurich. (He also had a German passport, which he carried with him on that trip.) He was one of the most famous people in the world at that point, and certainly he was not sneaking to or from Albania. Indeed, many reporters were covering his trip to America, and that week's issue of Time Magazine had his wife Elsa on the cover and an interview with her that described handling his travel arrangements. (It's available online.) He celebrated Hanukkah with 15,000 people that week in Madison Square Garden as a star attraction [Isaacson, 369]. At the end of December 1930, he traveled by boat from New York for that year's teaching gig at Cal Tech. On the way, his boat stopped in Cuba, where he famously addressed that nation's Academy of Sciences, and sailed through the Panama Canal before docking in San Diego. It never went anywhere near Albania. Einstein spent the entire spring at Cal Tech, where one of his most notable moments occurred. At the Mount Wilson Observatory, he was shown evidence that the universe was expanding, thus causing him to call a "blunder" his use of the cosmological constant. At the end of his time at Cal Tech in 1931, he took a train with Elsa across America and stopped at the Grand Canyon and was photographed wearing a headdress of the Hopi Indians [Isaacson, 374]. I say all of this because he was so famous that almost every day in this period there are newspaper stories about him. At no point does he go to Albania, nor does he ever need an Albanian passport to get into the U.S. -- nor in those years before Hitler took power would he need help sneaking into or out of any place. It makes no sense that in 1931, before Hitler and the Nazis were even in power, that he would have to go to Albania and get a passport or secretly be smuggled anywhere. It didn't happen. Not then, nor when he came to America for good in 1933, nor anytime. -- Blastfinder52 (talk) 05:58, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

It's not wrong, and I said that Einstein went to the US for the first time to the US with an Albanian passport in 1931, not for the first time overall. This says that Einstein was continuously a Swiss citizen since 1901, which is a little dubious, as Einstein seems to have gained Austrian and regained German citizenship after 1901 (respectively in 1911 and 1914). I wonder what the Swiss, German and Austrian laws were at that time, but I doubt that you could have dual citizenship as easily. Once that you earned a citizenship you should give up the prior. That law is still in force in Germany and Austria AFAIK. Why should Einstein have earned another Swiss passport in 1933 if he already had one? And why in New York City? It seems like he had already given up the Swiss citizenship either since 1911 when he earned the Austrian one or in 1914 when he regained the German citizenship. The Albanian passport theory is very plausible and there are lots of testimonies and archive search. The main biographers might not have picked it up, but we have some sources that bring very convincing facts. In addition the word of former Queen of Albania is reliable too, although she messed up the year. --Sulmues ^(talk) 13:51, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

I waited some days to get a response, and I'm going to wait another couple of days. If no one will answer I'll go ahead and edit by showing the most recent source and bring in the article that the Albanian citizenship was given in 1931, rather than in 1935. --Sulmues ^(talk) 17:59, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

If I get it right, this would include, that he had no Swiss passport in 1931 and that he was secretly in Albania in 1931, never mentioned this officially and regained Swiss citizenship in 1933. --109.192.204.93 (talk) 08:00, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

He had a Swiss passport from Feb. 21, 1901, until his death. It was regularly renewed, including at the Swiss consulate in the U.S., and it never lapsed. Every entry into the United States (including his December, 1930, entry and the subsequent one, which was in 1933) was done on the Swiss passport. (He did not reenter the U.S. in 1931; after his arrival in Dec. 1930, he went to Cal Tech and lectured there that spring.) He was among the most famous people in the world, and his location each day is amply documented by newspaper stories and by documents in the Einstein Archives. He had dual citizenship -- Swiss and German -- from April 1914 to March 1933. (http://www.einstein-website.de/z_information/variousthings.html#national) He was permitted to have dual citizenship when he became a member of the Prussian Academy in 1914, which also conferred German citizenship. The Nazis did not come into power until 1933, and until then Einstein was a member in high standing of the Prussian Academy and traveled very freely. All of his entries into the U.S., however, were done using his Swiss passport. -- Blastfinder52 (talk) 20:01, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

The following sentences are still in the article: "In 1935, Einstein traveled to the United States via Albania. He stayed in Durrës for three days as a guest of the Albanian royal mansion. Equipped with an Albanian passport, he continued his journey to the United States." It's passages like these that cause people to criticize Wikipedia. Whether or not he ever had an Albanian passport, we know those sentences are incorrect. -- 64.50.141.158 (talk) 01:53, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

I know they are in there and they are wrong. We are having a content dispute on whether the source by Blastfinder52 is better than mine: i.e. whether Einstein held Swiss citizenship all the time or not. Sources are contradicting one another as of now: probably we ought to have a third opinion. I myself don't know what is the truth, but both sources are verifiable. --Sulmues ^(talk) 14:29, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Sulmues: You wrote: "The main biographers might not have picked it up, but we have some sources that bring very convincing facts. In addition the word of former Queen of Albania is reliable too, although she messed up the year."

First, why should an account by the former Queen of Albania necessarily be reliable? Again, stories that contain manifestly erroneous statements are unlikely to contain "very convincing facts". For instance the citation to the relevant passage on the Einstein Wikipedia page says:

"In 1935, Albert Einstein benefited from Albanian help to transit through Europe to America. He stayed in Durrës on the Albanian coast for three days in the royal mansion and then, equipped with an Albanian passport, continued his journey towards the free world."

http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/rescue-in-albania-how-thousands-of-jews-were-saved-from-the-holocaust

[The link on the Einstein page does not work, but this is the article.]

But Einstein never left the United States after he took up a permanent post at Princeton in 1933. (Anyway, why would he, in 1935, when permanently settled in the States, want to go to Albania to "equip" himself with an Albanian passport?)

The second source you cite as "much more detailed than the first" contains manifest errors: http://www.albaniapress.com/lajme/8006/Doktori-pogradecar-qe-pajisi-Ajnshtajnin-me-pasaporte-shqiptare.html

An electronic translation reveals it says that Einstein went to Albania in April 1931 when pursued by German Nazis, and left with the passport to go on to the U.S. But Einstein had just returned from the States (March 1931), so why would have required an Albanian passport? (He left Germany in May 1931 for a spell in England, then back to Germany before returning to the States at the end of the year for his stint at Cal Tech in the winter of 1931-1932.) The article says that in 1931 his passport had been seized by the German Gestapo. But the Gestapo didn't come into existence until April 1933 after Hitler had seized power, when Einstein was safely out of the country.

The passport arrangement was supposedly at the instigation of one Dr. Jani [Janice] Bashua, a "friend" of Einstein's. None of the biographies of Einstein have an index entry for Bashua, and a Google search for the name brings up around 100 entries, mostly Albanian, none in English.

Far from being plausible citations, these clearly cannot be trusted. On the other hand Blastfinder52 has provided full details of Einstein's well-documented travels in the period 1930-1933, after which he never returned to Europe. All this information can be found from the major biographies of Einstein.

You wrote: "This says that Einstein was continuously a Swiss citizen since 1901, which is a little dubious, as Einstein seems to have gained Austrian and regained German citizenship after 1901 (respectively in 1911 and 1914). I wonder what the Swiss, German and Austrian laws were at that time, but I doubt that you could have dual citizenship as easily."

There isn't any doubt that Einstein retained Swiss citizenship throughout his time in Germany, and for a period also had German citizenship. Again, see any major biography.

In short, the citations for the Albania story contain too many major errors to be credible, whereas Einstein's whereabouts in the period 1931-1933 are well-documented and indicate there would have been no rhyme or reason for Einstein to visit Albania in April 1931.

I shall delete the paragraph about Albania if no credible objection to the above is posted here. Esterson (talk) 10:12, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

The claim of Albanian citizenship seems highly dubious, and his transit through Albania in 1935 also seems to be equally dubious. Also I would like someone to try to verify what countries he was a citizen of, since Albania appears to have been erroneously added to the information box, which I removed. ---- Steve Quinn (talk) 04:24, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Steve: Thanks for your considered response. On the question of the supposed 1935 visit to Albania, it is well documented that Einstein never left the US after his final arrival in 1933, and thereafter he was settled securely at Princeton. The idea he visited Albania in 1935 (for what possible reason?) is a non-starter.

On the issue of his citizenship, all major biographies record he took up Swiss citizenship in 1901 and retained it when he also had German citizenship for nearly fifteen years while resident in Berlin. There is semi-official confirmation of this in the book co-authored by Helen Dukas, Einstein's secretary from 1928 to his death in 1955, and thereafter a trustee of his literary estate: In 1919, "while retaining his precious Swiss citizenship [obtained in 1901, p. 31], he became a German citizen" (p. 137, *Albert Einstein: Creator and Rebel*, Banesh Hoffman, with the collaboration of Helen Dukas, Granada Publishing Ltd, 1972.) 86.172.242.103 (talk) 07:48, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

I forgot to log in for the above comment Esterson (talk) 07:52, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

The Swiss embassy acknowledged in 1933, that Einstein never lost Swiss citizenship. If Einstein ever had an Albanian passport, it was from this point on nearly of no value for him and it would be somewhat imgaginable, that he never mentioned it later. But did Switzerland realy always acknowledge his Swiss citizenship or only afterwards in 1933? Although I have no sources at hand, I've read, that Switzerlang refused to prolong his passport in 1925 (Perhaps after they had learned on the occasion of his Nobel prize, that he had regained German citizenship.) But in the uncertain political situation in the early 1930s, a second passport became somewhat the character of an insurance. In this case it seems imaginable, that Einstein secretly seized a possible opportunaty for any second passport, even if he never visited the country of this passport. A visit in Albania in 1935 can clearly be called a myth! And mentioning an Albanian passport in the article needs more evidence! And what about the Swiss citizenship between 1925 and 1933 in this case? It seems, there are a few doubts, whether the Albanian story is completely so baseless as described, but also a need of better sources. Henrig (talk) 22:12, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Sources provided for his passport please don't remove --Vinie007 13:07, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Referring to this edit, this source cannot be found, and in this source T. Scarlett Epstein OBE says: "Even Albert Einstein took refuge in Albania for a few days in 1935 before continuing his journey to America with an Albanian passport." So, (1) who is T. Scarlett Epstein OBE and how reliable is this, and (2), is "with an Albanian passport" evidence for having Albanian nationality? DVdm (talk) 15:31, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Pending a convincing reply, I have undone the edit. DVdm (talk) 14:18, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Sure, good reliable neutral sources are needed for such important info. --WhiteWriter ^speaks 02:30, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

With reference to DVdm's questioning the reliability of T. Scarlett Epstein's statement that "Even Albert Einstein took refuge in Albania for a few days in 1935 before continuing his journey to America with an Albanian passport":

We know this is erroneous as Einstein left Europe to settle in America in October 1933 and never again left America (see any major biography), so there can be no question of his "continuing his journey" to America in 1935. From the article referenced by DVdm it is evident that Epstein is grateful for Albanian hospitality at a time of urgent need, and it seems likely he has been told the story about Einstein and is happy to take it on trust. But it is evident that the claim is inauthentic. Esterson (talk) 00:04, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

At least that must be included i think, even if we haven't found yet the "right" source--Vinie007 13:57, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

The following has now been added to the Albert Einstein webpage (19 January):

Escape via Albania

In 1935, Einstein traveled to the United States via [[Albania]. He stayed in Durrës for three days as a guest of the Albanian royal mansion. Equipped with an Albanian passport[44], he continued his journey to the United States. The gesture of the Albanian royalty of King Zog is said to be part of the traditional Albanian besa (honor), according to which many Jews (including Einstein) were saved from Nazi forces prior to and during World War II in Albania." [45][46]

There is a determined effort by a few editors to promote this story, despite the fact that it has been several times shown on this Discussion page that it is manifestly inconsistent with known facts, i.e., Einstein was in Pasadena, California, when Hitler came to power in 1933, and on his return to Europe he accepted the hospitality of the Belgium royal family and then visited England before leaving for the United States in October 1933, never to return to Europe. (Banesh Hoffman and Helen Dukas, Albert Einstein: Creator and Rebel, 1972, pp. 164-173.) The heading "Escape via Albania" therefore bears no relation to the facts of Einstein's leaving Europe.

Leaving aside the fact that the 1935 date for Einstein's travelling to the United States is erroneous, it is inconceivable that Einstein's secretary, Helen Dukas, who looked after all Einstein's travelling arrangements, would not have recorded a visit to Albania had there been one.

All this should suffice, but I'll also deal with the citations for the newly added paragraph above. The unreliability of the hearsay story recycled by T. Scarlett Epstein has already been dealt with above, notably by Blastfinder. The second citation quotes Imam Qemal Lami, of the Albanian American Moslem Community, reporting that he "relayed the story of a German-born Jewish professor who escaped to the U.S. after securing a new passport in Albania", the professor in question supposedly being Einstein. This is not evidence, it is a recycling from an Albanian source of a hearsay story that has been shown to be erroneous. A third citation has been added, a tourist clip on Youtube for Parmoor House, Buckinghamshire, England. King Zog of Albania lived there from 1941-1945. The clip shows that there was also an entry in the visitors' book prior to this period showing that at some time before the residence of the Albanian royal family Einstein stayed there on one of his several visits to England from 1921 to 1933. (Nehru and Baden-Powell were also named as being in the visitors' book.) This provides not a jot of evidence for the claim that Einstein went to Albania in the period of his leaving Europe for America: [8]

I think it is time a senior editor ended this "debate" once and for all. Meantime, I shall revert the paragraph in question.Esterson (talk) 14:00, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Swiss or German or both

Yworo made this edit [9], stating that Albert Einstien was a Swiss theoretical physicist. I reverted the edit on the grounds that Einstein was born in Germany, and it seems to me that he is more well known as a German citizen. User:Yworo claims that according to the Manual of Style birth nationality is not used at the time the person became notable. However, the MOS (here}, appears to state that either are relevant (unless I am misreaing this paragraph).

In 1896 Einstein did give up German citizenship [[10]] (see page xix). In 1901 he became a Swiss citizen, and by 1917 he held a dual Swiss and German citizenship, with a position in Berlin. I think at the very least he is known for dual citizenship. Also, although my edit was reverted [11] by Yworo, this was reverted again as unnecessary by another editor, Physik-Nobelpreisträger. I agree with this because the following sentence states he was a German-Swiss Nobel laureate, and there is no need to repeat this. I feel that simply stating that Einstein was a Swiss-only physicist is misleading. Any thoughts on this matter? ---- Steve Quinn (talk) 05:33, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

The German gouvernment counts him among the German Nobel prize laureates. Deutsche Physik-Nobelpreisträger. When he got in 1922 the Nobel prize for 1921, he lived since eight years in Germany again. The International Nobel Commitee listed him officially as a German Nobel prize laureate. (Not as a German-Swiss laureate. The German ambassador received the prize for Einstein.) But since he never renounced his Swiss citizenship, it seems as well justifiable to call him a German and Swiss laureate. (The tem 'German-Swiss' could perhaps be a bit ambiguous, hinting also to the German speaking part of the Swiss.) Henrig (talk) 17:27, 21 November 2010 (UTC) Concerning a nationality or an ethnicity in the lead, there were to my knowledge already a few disputes in former years with the result, this would not be necessary. Henrig (talk) 20:03, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

I propose that the first sentence be amended so that "German theoretical physicist" be replaced by "German-born theoretical physicist". This has precedence on Wikipedia, for example, in the case of Lise Meitner (Austrian-born) and Max Born (German-born). It is especially appropriate for Einstein, given that he deliberately gave up his German citizenship at sixteen when he joined his parents who had emigrated from Germany to Italy (Albert Einstein Collected Papers, vol. 1, doc. 16). His acquiring German citizenship again (alongside his Swiss citizenship obtained in 1901) during his residence in Berlin seems to have been involuntary, at least at first (his post at the Prussian Academy commencing in 1914 was officially deemed to make him a "Reich German", though he was unaware of this at the time [A. Fölsing, Albert Einstein, 1997, pp. 334-335]). He renounced his German citizenship in 1933 even before he left Europe for the United States (Fölsing, 1997, p. 661), where he soon acquired American citizenship. With this history in mind, and given his antipathy towards Germany starting while he was still in his mid-teens, I think it appropriate that "German" should be replaced by "German-born". Esterson (talk) 18:20, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm completely against having "German-born" in the lead sentence. WP:MOSBIO specifically states that "previous nationalities or the country of birth should not be mentioned in the opening sentence unless they are relevant to the subject's notability". It's redundant to say "German-born" because it already states in both the infobox and biography section that he was born in Germany. --John of Lancaster (talk) 20:37, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

In my view it is highly relevant that Einstein was German-born, as this was a major aspect of his school education and contributed to his later attitudes to education and to the development of his socio-political views, not to mention the issues about his renewing German nationality when he went to Berlin. The fact that this is mentioned elsewhere is neither here nor there. Esterson (talk) 12:46, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

I suppose you are right. --John of Lancaster (talk) 19:56, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Thanks! Esterson (talk) 13:24, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Ethnicity = Jewish ?????

Judaism is a religion. Einstein's ethnicity should be traced to the LANDS of his relatives, not their beliefs.

71.220.217.39 (talk) 23:04, 25 December 2010 (UTC)Scott, 12/25/2010

See Who is a Jew?. Sean.hoyland - talk 23:09, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes, ethnicity Jewish- I don't think that many people truly believe that being Jewish is only a religious matter and in any case Jews are widely referred as ethnic group. --Gilisa (talk) 12:23, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Agnostic or Atheist?!

I need to settle this once and for all - was Einstein agnostic or atheist?? --KpoT (talk) 15:43, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Einstein often referenced God in the same fashion that Hawking used to; both use the word God in reference to that which we don't know about the universe, or in reference to the underlying energies seemingly behind it all. However, Einstein was not religious and in reference to the traditional anthropomorphised God of western theology, the God of Einstein's comments was more akin to the deist view of God: the great clock maker that wound the clock and let it be. To call him a believer in God would be inaccurate, therefore, without defining God. 208.88.8.22 (talk) 06:25, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

I would like to point to this quote: "I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings." (Albert Einstein) SOURCE: http://atheism.about.com/od/einsteingodreligion/tp/Einstein-on-a-Personal-God.htm Spinoza's god is something much more than an atheistic or agnostic point of view. It is a belief in god. I think it is worth mentioning in this article. Einstein has repeatedly made fun of a "personal" god such as the god in Christianity, but seems to lean on the pantheistic world view (hence Spinoza). I ask you not to overlook this because Einstein was a world famous scientist, he deserves to be seen as he was. Silenzer12 (talk) 12:48, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Mileva Maric's influence in Einstein's works

Reading through the article, I noticed there's very little about Einstein's first wife, Mileva Maric. It's been stated on numerous occasions that she's been a major influence and has contributed to many of his works, yet in this article she's give very little acknowledgement. I believe that for the article to be better rounded and more neutral a more in depth part on her involvement would be necessary. Lukic12345 (talk) 09:50, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Assertions (statements) are not necessarily valid. Historians of physics (e.g., John Stachel, Gerald Holton, Alberto Martinez) who have investigated the claims about Maric's alleged contributions find no serious evidence to support them. See, for instance, John Stachel, Einstein From 'B' to 'Z', 2002, pp. 31-38: [12] See also [13]

Maric twice failed the Zurich Polytechnic diploma exam for teaching physics and mathematics in secondary schools, with poor grades in mathematics (Albert Einstein Collected Papers, vol.1, doc. 67), and there is no known authenticated work in physics by her. In her letters to her closest friend, Helene Kaufler Savic, Maric always attributed published papers to Einstein, with no suggestion that she had played any part in their production (M. Popovic, In Albert's Shadow: The Life and Letters of Mileva Maric, Einstein's First Wife, 2003.) As Stachel points out, there is not even hearsay evidence of any specific ideas on physics from Maric.

The dubiousness of so much of what is claimed for Maric is illustrated by the widely circulating contention that Maric did Einstein's mathematics for the 1905 special relativity theory, stemming largely from Senta Troemel-Ploetz's much-cited article "Mileva Einstein-Maric: The Woman Who Did Einstein's Mathematics" (Women's Studies International Forum, vol. 13 (5), 1990, pp. 415-432). But a glance at Einstein's paper shows that the mathematics (algebra and calculus) is quite elementary, and at a level achieved by Einstein by self-study by the age of 15.

There is much that is commendable about Mileva Maric's life, but unfortunately in recent times there has been a determined effort to credit her with achievements that she herself never at any time claimed for herself. Esterson (talk) 12:38, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Silence

Einstein's two mental break-downs are passed over in silence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.148.81.64 (talk) 13:05, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

It would help if you gave citations. I have seen suggestions that his health breakdown in 1917 following his massive (and continuing) work on his general relativity theory was a mental breakdown, but this is erroneous. (Albrecht Hirschmüller, Albert Einstein, 1997, pp. 405-406; W. Isaacson, Einstein: His Life and Universe, 2007, p. 233). Although for a period of some months Einstein was confined to bed, his work on physics continued unabated. I know of no other period for which it is claimed that Einstein had a mental breakdown. Esterson (talk) 12:49, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

See Archive 14 # Both of the current Talk page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.148.49.73 (talk) 17:05, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

New Facts

Hi, some information is really missing from this article : 1. Einstein's ethnicity - He was a Jewish German, not just a German. 2. Einstein's plugializing of works of James Maxwell & Hendrik Lorentz without giving credits to them. 3. Einstein was denied Nobel Prize for his work in general relativity (obviously his major achievement). And instead his promoters gave him Nobel Prize for photoeffect, that was invented by russian scientist. That is important fact - it was a scandal at that time. Steelmate (talk) 22:56, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Content in Wikipedia must be supported by references to reliable sources. In your edit to the article you cite www.biblebelievers.org, which is not a reliable source. Do you have a reliable source for your “facts”? —teb728 t c 12:40, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Per TEB728, what is your reliable source for this proposed material? It sounds like opinion to me. --John (talk) 15:21, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

His source at [14] is disgustingly anti-Semitic. Dougweller (talk) 17:15, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Not only is it antisemitic, it also is factually crap. I'm sure the ETH Zurich is properly described as "an engineering school in Zurich" with "a simple entrance exam". --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:33, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Nuclear weapons paragraph in the lead

I am personally of the opinion that the paragraph on nuclear weapons doesn't really belong in the lead, as it is not really what Einstein is notable for. For that reason, I think it should be left to the main body of the article. Any other opinions? LJosil (talk) 21:51, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Agree, not sure why this stuff is in the lede, appears as prominence issue to me. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 22:52, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Agree in part, since his personal life should be mentioned in the lead. After all, escaping from Nazi Germany, inspiring nuclear weapons research, becoming a U.S. citizen, and living and teaching in the U.S. for over 20 years, are key aspects of his life. And compared to the preceding paragraph, at least, one doesn't have to know physics to understand it ;) --Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 00:17, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Suggested rephrasing:

"He escaped from Nazi Germany in 1933 and settled in the U.S., becoming a citizen in 1940. On the eve of World War II, he helped alert President Franklin D. Roosevelt that Germany might be developing an atomic weapon, and recommended that the U.S. begin nuclear research. That research by the Manhattan Project resulted in the U.S. becoming the first and only country to possess nuclear weapons during the war." --Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 00:31, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

I think he is quite often popularly associated with nuclear bombs (& nuclear energy) - and for many good reasons: theoretical, historical, and political --JimWae (talk) 00:33, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Sure, contribution to nuclear physics is notable, I'd suggest phrasing for the lede along lines of "E was instrumental in the development of nuclear physics when he produced first mathematical analysis in 1905 of phenomenon now known as Brownian motion, caused by the thermal motion of water molecules." See BBC Atom, episode 1, more sources available at Atoms - Origin of scientific theory. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 11:47, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

I don't think one can say that Einstein's mathematical explanation for Brownian Motion, regarded as confirmation that an atom was a real entity not a useful artefact, played a significant role in the development of nuclear physics. The latter arose from the discovery of the electron by J. J. Thomson in 1897, and the experimental work performed under the direction of Ernest Rutherford at the Cavendish Laboratory at Cambridge over the next fifteen years, followed by Niels Bohr's model of the atom. And so on. Esterson (talk) 23:42, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Travels abroad

The first sentence in this section, reporting that Einstein first visited New York in 1921, is followed by a statement of his views on science which seem to me to be out of place here. In any case, the reference citation is to "'Geometry and Experience', (1921), reprinted in Ideas and Opinions". But the latter book (p. 232) shows that "Geometry and Experience" was a lecture delivered at the Prussian Academy of Sciences, 27 January 1921.

I shall remove the statement of Einstein's views and leave the paragraph with only the subject matter pertaining to the title of the section. Esterson (talk) 08:59, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

albert

albert eianstien was very ,very ,very ,very smart. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.79.107.3 (talk) 14:49, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Request image restoration

A useful image, File:Einstein in UK.jpg, with the caption, "Einstein with Oliver Locker-Lampson, being protected in Norfolk, England, after escaping Nazi Germany in 1933", was deleted for the 2nd time despite its direct support of the commentary. The reason for the deletion was "You can't just keep uploading an image every time it is deleted." However, the deleting admin disregarded, or didn't see, the newly added text describing the image or the new rationale given on the image description. A consensus to restore the image would be a good idea, so that anyone can then comment:

• Keep, per above explanation. --Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 22:51, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Another image, of a newspaper headline announcing his death, is also marked for deletion, and any other votes to "keep" or "delete" should be made on the image's talk page. Otherwise it can be deleted in 2 days. The rationale for keeping it is on the image page. --Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 22:58, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

I haven't been able to see: File:Einstein in UK.jpg. But it relates to a brief passing episode among many more important in Einstein's life, so I don't see the need for it, especially as the article is probably overlong as it is. Esterson (talk) 21:33, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

While on the subject, I'm not convinced the details about Oliver Locker-Lampson should even be in the text of the article. If this kind of detail were introduced for every stage of Einstein's life, the article would be considerably longer for no good purpose. My view is that the whole Locker-Lampson item should be removed, with "prior to leaving for the United States in October 1933" added to the previous sentence, so it reads: "On his return to Europe in March 1933 he resided in Belgium for some months, before temporarily moving to England prior to leaving for the United States in October 1933."[42] Esterson (talk) 21:50, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

I agree that the biography is too long, but not for the same reason. The majority of this "biography" has too little to do with the life of Einstein, and too much about science. Simply look at the endless array of scientific sections, most of which make little mention of the life of Einstein. Typical example from the lead sentence from the "Scientific career" sections:

"His 1905 paper on the electrodynamics of moving bodies introduced his theory of special relativity, which showed that the observed independence of the speed of light on the observer's state of motion required fundamental changes to the notion of simultaneity."

The 2nd paragraph in the lead is also focused just on science. So contrary to a massive amount of such impersonal science details, the Locker-Lampson visit at least describes his personal life, and in this case a very significant transition period during his emigration. The photo showed Einstein being protected by armed men, including Locker-Lampson, which implies that Einstein's life was at serious risk. That's the kind of stuff that bios need more of, IMO. I mentioned this same problem about Johannes Gutenberg's life, where personal bio details were removed in favor of details about the history of typography, books, etc. For the Einstein article, I'd prefer to trim sub-sections that have full article links and expand details related to Einstein the person. Just my opinion.--Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 22:31, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

As the science held a central place in his life for so much of it, I dare say many contributors would disagree with your view.

"...which implies that Einstein's life was at serious risk."

Not necessarily. It implies that Locker-Lampson thought he was at risk (or was merely taking precautions to be on the safe side), though with only "two girl secretaries" armed with rifles [were such individuals legally allowed to have firearms?] to help him, I doubt a serious assassin would have had too much trouble in succeeding.

http://www.northnorfolknews.co.uk/news/man_who_brought_einstein_and_carnivals_to_cromer_area_1_763453

Whatever threats were being uttered in Germany, no one else seems to have felt that Einstein needed a bodyguard while he was in England in 1933. I remain unconvinced that the Locker-Lampson reference deserves a place on the Einstein webpage. It suffices merely to note that Einstein stayed a short time in England between his stay in Belgium when he returned from the States in March 1933 and his leaving for the States in October 1933. Esterson (talk) 13:47, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

The photo proves otherwise. But if you can support your opinion that Locker-Lampson was just overly paranoid and needlessly protective, that's fine. As a navy commander, he might have disagreed with you, though. --Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 17:54, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

The photo proves nothing beyond the fact that Locker-Lampson protected Einstein with rifles, something no one is disputing. I don't need to support my opinion that Locker-Lampson was almost certainly needlessly protective (I didn't say he was paranoid – he was obviously heeding outrageous words emanating from Germany), other than to point out that no one else seems to have thought he needed it. None of the major biographies mention any official armed protection for Einstein during his stay in England.

I would like to delete at least part of your recent addition: "He was an outspoken opponent of the Nazi persecution of Jews [44][45] and some have considered his other efforts, such as helping Sigmund Freud,[46] "exceptional in how he saved Jews from Germany." [47]

This is supposed to be a Wikipage on Einstein. If this kind of detail (about Locker-Lampsom and Freud and his assisting Jews to escape to England) were included for most people who came into close contact with Einstein, the article would increase substantially. Leaving aside that the reference to Freud is inappropriate for the Einstein Wikipedia page, it's not even as if Locker-Lampson had any role in Freud's coming to England after the Nazis took over Austria. This was facilitated by the efforts of Freud's colleague and friend Ernest Jones and by the Home Secretary Sir Samuel Hoare, who immediately gave carte blanche for Jones to fill in permits for Freud and his entourage. (E. Jones, Sigmund Freud: Life and Work. Vol. 3, p. 237.)

I hope a senior editor will oblige by giving his opinion on this matter. Esterson (talk) 14:32, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

With regard to the U.K. assisting Einstein and offering him armed personal protection, you "point out that no one else seems to have thought he needed it." Maybe that's true. And whether his protection was actually required, in hindsight, is simply a matter of opinion. But that also makes it necessary to explain why Locker-Lampson alone, in the U.K., would do more. The sentence you think should be deleted helps explain why: "He was an outspoken opponent of the Nazi persecution of Jews, and some have considered his other efforts, such as helping Sigmund Freud, "exceptional in how he saved Jews from Germany."

When compared to the earlier, much larger, exchange about whether Albania should be credited with merely stamping his passport or letting him stay for a few days while in transit, it seems odd to want to discredit evidence that anyone in the U.K. did so much to help him, and others, escape Germany. --Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 19:57, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Wikiwatcher1: You write, comparing this with the Albania issue, "it seems odd to want to discredit evidence that anyone in the U.K. did so much to help him, and others, escape Germany." These two items are completely unrelated. With the first, it's a matter of the authentic evidence, of which there not a scrap to support the claim, and plenty to refute it. The notion that I "want to discredit evidence" that anyone in the UK did so much to help Einstein escape Germany is strange. Nothing I wrote supports this, I merely question whether so much detail is appropriate, especially when it goes beyond material directly relating to Einstein. But what you write here is incorrect anyway. Locker-Lampson didn't do anything "to help Einstein…escape Germany". Einstein stayed in Belgium on his return from the States in March 1933, and before his first visit to England that year he knew nothing of Locker-Lampson. Nor did Einstein need Locker-Lampson's help for him to come to England prior to his leaving for the States in October; he was completely at liberty to come to England as he had earlier in the year, and there were plenty of people who would have been happy to give him hospitality.

You write: "But that also makes it necessary to explain why Locker-Lampson alone, in the U.K., would do more." By "more" you can only mean giving Einstein armed protection (though all may not be quite as it seems, see Isaacson below). Here is Einstein biographer Ronald Clark on the colourful, not to say eccentric, Locker-Lampson: "In the First World War he pursued an adventurous career [etc, etc]. It was in character that Locker-Lampson should have served under the Grand Duke Nicholas and later been invited to murder Rasputin by one of the men who eventually carried out the assassination" (1971, p. 566). And here is Walter Isaacson: "In a drama worthy of a James Bond movie, Locker-Lampson had two young 'assistants' take Einstein up to a secluded cottage that he owned… There he was swept into a whirlwind of secrecy and publicity. The two young women posed next to him holding hunting shotguns for a picture that was given to the press agencies…" (2007, pp. 422-23)

I can only repeat what I wrote before, that all this detail about Locker-Lampson is inappropriate for the Einstein page, given the immense amount of scientific work he undertook, and the enormous amount of non-scientific events with which he was involved. That the photo was posed for a publicity shoot only adds to the reasons for omitting this material. Esterson (talk) 13:46, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Incidentally, you write that some have considered Locker-Lampson's "other efforts, such as helping Sigmund Freud, 'exceptional in how he saved Jews from Germany'." But he played no role in helping Freud escape from the Nazis in 1938 (see above). The citation on the Einstein page relates to the following year, 1939, when he proposed a parliamentary bill to confer citizenship on Freud. Esterson (talk) 14:34, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Well, I agree that it would be "strange," as you say, for anyone "to want to discredit evidence" that Einstein received such help. So it's even more strange that your comments again seem to do more of it. You repeatedly describe a "posed" photo with two women to undermine the event, yet the only picture that's being discussed is this photo. And the sentence which gives the subject context and substance, and includes 4 citations, you want removed because "all this detail about Locker-Lampson is inappropriate."

Yet you apparently see no problem with the obviously bloated "Scientific career" material, like this one, which I suggested could be trimmed. This one section is an essay of over 800 words of scientific details which only a physicist could understand, and lacks any citations! To top it off, it even has a hatnote to its own article. That's the kind of material that is "inappropriate," IMO.

Since Locker-Lampson helped Freud also, why leave his name out? It also adds context and substance. His name is only mentioned, not described in the detail you've added. Yet Locker-Lampson stood before the House of Commons in order to give an "alarmist" description of Freud's condition. Brenda Maddox, in her book, Freud's Wizard, (2006), writes that Locker-Lampson wanted to do the same for Freud that he earlier did for Einstein, and act as his "protector." Since you also mention that Locker-Lampson was "eccentric" and a James Bond-type figure, it makes the subject even more interesting and relevant. I suggest that we just leave the sentence in, and you and I instead write a movie script about the adventurous and daring Locker-Lampson. Or else we can hire a ghostwriter. --Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 21:29, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

There seems no point in discussing this further until another editor comes in to give his or her opinion. (You seem to ignore the detail of much that I wrote, for instance, still writing that Locker-Lampson "helped Freud" when he actually gave no direct help to him, whatever Maddox says he wanted to do – I have all the major biographies of Freud, and the only one that even mentions Locker-Lampson is Jones's, and then only to say that he raised the question in Parliament of speeding up the normal procedure for naturalization as a British citizen for Freud.) You criticize the amount of material on Einstein's scientific career, though it is primarily his scientific work on which his great reputation rests. If you check out Freud's Wikipedia page, the great bulk of it (rightly) is about his psychoanalytic theories. Do you object to that? More generally, the Wikipedia page for any first-rank scientist covers their scientific work extensively, which is as it should be. Esterson (talk) 18:42, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

• The paragraphs pertaining to Oliver Locker-Lampson appears to be off topic, and Einstein's stay with Oliver Locker-Lampson appears to be an insignificant detail. To maintain this amount of content regarding Oliver Locker-Lampson, in this article, amounts to giving too much weight to an insignificant detail and irrelevant opinions. Moreover, the photo provided by Wikiwatcher1 does not demonstrate that Einstein's stay at this secluded cottage is significant and worthy of note. Furthermore, to imply that Einstein was in serious danger because of this photo probably amounts to synthesis. Also, this biography is not about the Admiral's views. This material appears to be merely an unnecessary digression. I support removing this material, and support only mentioning that Einstein stayed in England before emigrating to the USA. ---- Steve Quinn (talk) 03:56, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Steve, some of your recent edits to the WWII section seem reasonable. However, it wasn't necessary to do so with a slightly hostile attitude, per some of your summary comments: remove minutiae, remove name of author of a current opinion article from this article, remove misrepresentation of facts, Correct the wording to represent the facts accurately; What does "that research" mean? - nebulous wording. Also remove promotional wording -- ("the first country blah, blah,") -- which could also possibly be WP:SYN.There's no reason to create an adversarial atmosphere by such phrasing, and I doubt that's what Esterson was requesting.

But your rationale above, for instance, that "to imply that Einstein was in serious danger because of this photo probably amounts to synthesis." shows you are commenting off the cuff. There are cites and article links included that make those assertions. If you personally don't think Time magazine or the Norfolk newspaper should have stories like that, that's fine, but it's your personal opinion. Those were reliable sources, and they felt they were significant parts of Einstein's life. All of the details with Locker-Lampson were related to Einstein in a significant way.

Since you don't like trivia or SYN, why not do something about the largest portion of the bio that hardly mentions Einstein, such as sections 2.1 Annus Mirabilis papers; 2.2 Thermodynamic fluctuations and statistical physics; 2.3 Thought experiments and a-priori physical principles, and the others. These first three sections are completely original research with no required citiations, with each having a full article hatnote. So instead of excising "biographical" cited facts, why not trim these mostly non-biographical essays and really improve the article? --Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 07:05, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Wikiwatcher: The fact that Steve does not think the article citations are appropriate for the Einstein page does not mean that he thinks the publications in question shouldn't have stories like that – that's their job. But neither show that Einstein was in danger. As Isaacson reports, Locker-Lampson was a colourful personality who arranged a posed photograph largely for publicity purposes – if Einstein's security was really at risk, why would Locker-Lampson have publicised where he was staying? The other includes a statement made by Locker-Lampson in Parliament which, incidentally, has him saying "How proud this country must be to have offered him shelter at Oxford". As I've said above, Locker-Lampson didn't rescue Einstein in any way – he was free to come to England and any number of eminent people would have been glad to give him hospitality had Locker-Lampson not gone out of his way to offer Einstein a secluded spot where he could entertain a few guests as he pleased in peace and quiet.

Your paragraph includes something about Locker-Lampson supposedly helping Freud, but as I've already pointed out, he was not involved in any way with helping Freud escape from the Nazis, as the sentence in question implies.

You refer to sections 2.1, 2.2, and 2.3 as hardly mentioning Einstein. That's quite extraordinary, seeing as they are completely about some of Einstein's major contributions to physics. They are not "original research", they are descriptions of Einstein's achievements, as is entirely appropriate for a Wikipedia page on an outstanding scientist.

When I suggested reducing the amount on Locker-Lampson you promptly considerably increased it. There are now two people with a good knowledge of Einstein and physics who disagree with you here, but you insist you are right. Frankly it is absurd to have so much on a man who scarcely impinged on Einstein's extraordinarily eventful life, while lifelong friends like Michele Besso, Maurice Solovine and Max Born, people of great significance to Einstein, scarcely get a mention. Esterson (talk) 16:44, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

I apologize that the wording in my edit histories that pertain to the WWII material came across as terse.

And it is true that the science sections directly pertain to Einstein - and some of the content is difficult for the general reader to understand. In an attempt to shorten the article, and make the scientific achievements more understandable I have done some copy editing. But it is not easy. I think the processes that Einstein employed in order to reach his conclusions are worthy of note. However, at 137,000 bytes the article appeared to need trimming. Hopefully this article will not reach the size of the article entitled The Holocaust, which is currently just above 241,000 bytes.

I don't think it would be a bad idea to split off the Science Career section into a new article. I am sure it could be done so that this part of his biography is given the signifigance it deserves. I have a couple of ideas how this could work. Also, the proposed Science Career article could be expanded with simple introductions in each section for the general reader. This could be followed with more detail in each section, as desired. ---- Steve Quinn (talk) 17:31, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

I agree that Einstein famously used thought experiments. However, the way this section was written, it seemed to emphasize a philosophy rather than emphasizing the work Einstein was specifically engaged in. So, I temporarilly changed this section until some more definitive text that directly relates to Einstein can be developed.---- Steve Quinn (talk) 17:42, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

From a general reader impression, I think Steve has helped return this biography article to a more balanced state. Trimming the "Annus Mirabilis papers" section down from 820 words to 80, and trimming other sections, at least invites non-physicists in the door. Simply looking at the Table of Contents in the Isaacson biography of Einstein shows a reasonable balance between his personal life and career aspects, and the level of detail a bio should devote to those sections.

But Esterson's comment that "Locker-Lampson supposedly helped Freud," and, with a straight face, claim that "he was not involved in any way with helping Freud," even with the cited details in that paragraph, is amazing. However, I'll agree that he was probably free to come to England, as apparently the British were very accommodating to homeless Nobel Prize winners, especially ones with a bounty on their head. When you suggested reducing the amount on Locker-Lampson, however, you wrote that this "brief passing" and insignificant event should not even be mentioned. The added citations were therefore added to help prove the significance and to replace some details that the deleted photo now required.

Originally, only the photo was shown, without any commentary, but its removal on the basis of its lacking commentary then made adding the commentary more necessary. This entire Talk section was a" Request image restoration," but that request seems to have backfired. --Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 18:41, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Wikiwatcher1: You write it is amazing that I wrote that Locker-Lampson "was not in any way involved with helping Freud", even with the cited details in that paragraph. I've already dealt with all this, but here it is again. If you're going to quote me, please do so accurately. What I wrote was that "he was not involved in any way with helping Freud escape from the Nazis", which is one hundred percent true, as is evident from the biography by Freud's friend and colleague Ernest Jones (details above). All your citation shows is that Locker-Lampson, at the instigation of H.G. Wells, raised in Parliament the year after Freud arrived the possibility of speeding up naturalisation for Freud (presumably because he knew Freud was near to death by then). It would not have made the slightest difference to Freud's settling in England if Locker-Lampson hadn't existed.

Freud wasn't just "probably free" to come to England, he was free to come to England, as the Home Secretary allowed Ernest Jones to have the necessary documents to be signed by Freud. And, incidentally, Freud was not a Nobel Prize winner.

You write: "Contents in the Isaacson biography of Einstein shows a reasonable balance between his personal life and career aspects, and the level of detail a bio should devote to those sections." But Isaacson's biography is for a popular readership. Why should a Wikipedia page necessarily follow such a policy? If you look at the Freud Wikipedia page, the great bulk of it is (rightly) denoted to his ideas and clinical practice. In any case, it shouldn’t be the case that so much is written on Locker-Lampson when his presence in Einstein's life was insignificant compared with Born, Besso and Solovine, to name just three. Esterson (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 20:23, 21 February 2011 (UTC).

The reason WP does follow that policy is because the essence of WP readership is that the reader knows nothing about the person discussed in a biography. My guess is that the "average" reader coming to the article is more interested in the life of Einstein than overly detailed science, i.e. " a gas made up of a molecule with two atoms can be thought of as two balls on a spring. This spring has energy kBT at high temperatures, and should contribute an extra kB to the specific heat. It does at temperatures of about 1000 degrees, but at lower temperature, this contribution disappears. At zero temperature, all other contributions to the specific heat from rotations and vibrations also disappear."

But rather than delete persons relevant to his bio, why not add the connections he had with Born, Besso and Solovine? I think what Steve did in summarizing science sections that had their own articles is a great improvement and helps overall readership. We are not all physicists. --Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 22:16, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

• I think the point is that this incident, and Einstein's relationship with Locker-Lampson appears to be trivial. Locker-Lampson was not Einstein's peer, and did not confer with Einstein as a scientific colleague. In essence this person does not appear to have notability in regards to impacting Einstein's life. And he has no standing to be such a significant part of this biography. The admiral made no noteworthy scientific contribution as did the others mentioned on this talk page. Again there is no impact on Einstein's life nor his contributions to science and society.

Just from these articles I can glean that Locker-Lampson appears to be merely a flamboyant character. Furthermore, stating in this article that he "...was an outspoken opponent of the Nazi persecution of Jews and a leading member of a Blue Shirts anti-communist league, for whom he wrote a marching song..." appears to be off topic. This article is about Einstein and not Locker-Lampson. In addition, "Today Professor Einstein is without a home!' cried Commander Locker-Lampson" is still about Locker-Lampson, was a matter of opinion, and appears to be designed to play on the emotions of a governing body. This appears to be trivial at best. Moeover, to have a quote surrounded by white space in the middle of a paragraph appears to be in contradiction to WP:UNDUE, and appears to be a single incidence of POV pushing. In any case, all of the material pertaining to this person appears to be in contradiction to WP:NPOV.

Finally, it appears that consensus through editing has decided that Einstien's scientific research and contributions is to have the amount of coverage this area receives in this article. I doubt one editor's disagreement with this development will change that. ---- Steve Quinn (talk) 23:31, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

• The statement about helping Frued is again about Locker-Lampson, and this is an article about Einstein. This is not Locker-Lampson's biography. Also I question the relevance of the paragraph about other scientists who fled germany. This article is not about other scientists or other Nobel laureates. This appears to be POV pushing. Except for Einstein's statement, this probably belongs in some other article. I think all that needs to be said is other expatriots, or other emigree scientists joined Einstein and then Einstein said "Such and such..." ---- Steve Quinn (talk) 23:44, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

There is no requirement that everyone mentioned in a scientist's bio be a fellow scientist. Your statement, "Locker-Lampson was not Einstein's peer, and did not confer with Einstein as a scientific colleague. In essence this person does not appear to have notability in regards to impacting Einstein's life," is illogical. His notability has been shown and his relevance to Einstein's visit has been proven. So your conclusion that he should be deleted because he "made no noteworthy scientific contribution," is also illogical, at best. Nor does the article state that he was "a leading member of a Blue Shirts anti-communist league, for whom he wrote a marching song..."

You also rely on an extremely minor and easily edited detail like blockquoting (recommended for readability,) and using that to imply "POV pushing." That simply refreshes the first comment to you above about your seemingly hostile attitude. It also contradicts WP policies to assume of good faith. You now add a mention of Freud, with 2 cites, in relation to Locker-Lampson and Einstein, as more hostile assertions of POV pushing. I've added considerably to his personal life details over many months, including finding and adding valuable photos. I did so to improve the article, not merely because I was asked to join in a discussion to achieve consensus. --Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 00:37, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

• The point is Locker-Lampson has had no discernible impact on Einstein's life or his work. Furthermore, this addition to the article serves as a platform to present a mini-biography of Locker-Lampson. The admiral's views, according to Time magazine (or any publication) are not relevant to this article. The fact that he presented a bill which may generally affect Jewish refugees is still part of a mini-biography about the admiral. His characterization of Einstein's displacement is Locker-Lampson's opinion. Locker-Lampson's other efforts, such as helping Sigmund Freud is also part of a mini-biography about the admiral. The partial quote "...exceptional in how he saved Jews from Germany," is, again, part of a mini-biography about Locker-Lampson. This mini-biography is out of context in this article. Hence, since this article is being used as a platform for irrelevant material it appears to be POV pushing.

It is true the article does not say "a leading member of a Blue Shirts anti-communist league, for whom he wrote a marching song..." - I confused that with the sources.

I suggest that material pertaining to Locker-Lampson be merged to his biography.

I am not sure which person you are talking about when you state, "I've added considerably to his personal life details over many months, including finding and adding valuable photos." Are you talking about this article? If that is the case then I am glad that you have contributed to this article, but that is not relevant to this discussion. ---- Steve Quinn (talk) 03:05, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Also, the "extremely minor and easily edited detail" of a blockquote does not tell the whole tale. This minor detail has the affect of making this quoted text stick out like a sore thumb. If the quoted text is not relevant to the particular article then, as in the case, it serves to add unmerited signifigance to the text (and might be construed as POV). ---- Steve Quinn (talk) 04:05, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

You seem gung-ho to continue creating a tower built on erroneous statements. Your foundation is based on your POV that 1) Locker-Lampson had no discernible impact on Einstein's life; and 2) that every mention of him is part of a mini-biography. But the proof you offer, such as a blockquote by him, only proves the exact opposite: if you read it you'll notice there is nothing in that quote that is about Locker-Lampson, as it's only about Einstein. So what you, like Esterson, are again asking for, I assume is more substantiation, which I'll be happy to add to the section if necessary.

For example, Locker-Lampson also took Einstein to visit Winston Churchill. Einstein wrote to his wife about their meeting: "He is an eminently wise man. It became clear to me that these people have made preparations and are determined to act resolutely and soon." He later took him to visit Austen Chamberlain, and former Prime Minister David Lloyd, and others. He helped promote Einstein's appearance at the Royal Albert Hall aimed at raising money for other German scholars. As a result, all 9,000 seats were filled and the aisles and lobbies were jammed. A thousand students came to act as guides and guards against any pro-Nazi demonstrators that might show up. During his speech, Einstein said,

"If we want to resist the powers that threaten to suppress intellectual and individual freedom, we must be clear of what is at stake. Without such freedom there would have been no Shakespeare, no Goethe, no Newton, no Faraday, no Pasteur, no Lister. . . "

I'm no Einstein, as the saying goes, but I'm beginning to share his dislike of attempted censorship. --Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 04:52, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Wikiwatcher1: On Locker-Lampson's initiating Einstein's visits to Winston Churchill, Austen Chamberlin and David Lloyd George, none of these discussions had a major role in Einstein's life. Einstein saw numerous eminent people on his visits to England, and if he'd particularly wanted to see these people he only had to ask. It speaks well of Locker-Lampson that he did so much to promote the Royal Albert Hall meeting to publicise the Nazis treatment of German scholars, but it was originally organised by the Academic Assistance Fund started by William Beverage and Ernest Rutherford before Locker-Lampson had any involvement.

More on Locker-Lampson from Ronald Clark's biography: "The assassination story was, in fact, made up by Locker-Lampson and 'leaked' to a London evening newspaper when the sale of tickets for the 'Einstein meeting' at the Royal Albert Hall was flagging." (p. 601)

You ask: "But rather than delete persons relevant to his bio, why not add the connections he had with Born, Besso and Solovine?" Because if little extra snippets of information were to be added to every person who made a significant contribution to Einstein's life, the length of the page would go up by leaps and bounds. It's a question of priorities, as Steve has tried to explain to you.

It seems that further discussion is a waste of time. You set yourself up as an arbiter of what a Wikipedia page should contain, and sometimes ignore or misrepresent specific points made against your relatively extensive passage on someone who was insignificant in comparison with a huge number of people who impinged on Einstein's life at various points. Then you provide a plea against the suppression of intellectual and individual freedom made in an entirely different context, and use it to describe considered expressions of opinions from two people who have extensive knowledge of physics and of Einstein as attempts at censorship. By that criterion, every time a contributor to Wikipedia suggests that an item is inappropriate, or too extensive for its subject-matter, they are engaging in attempted censorship. Esterson (talk) 12:55, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

• I agree that further discussion appears to be a waste of time. Therefore, I have removed the material. Esterson and I have pointed out the discrpancies pertaining to this material, and provided sufficient rationale as to why this material is inappropriate for this article. Yet we continue to have to deal with a refusal to get the point WP:HEAR. In any case, Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. The contentious material may be one or two or events that were probably newsworthy, but most newsworthy events do not qualify for inclusion WP:NOTNEWS or WP:INDISCRIMINATE. For example, routine news reporting on things like announcements, sports, or celebrities is not a sufficient basis for inclusion in the encyclopedia. And that is right on point. The sources for this material are based on routine news reporting on celebrities. Take your pick, which celeberties. Wikipedia is not a news source: it takes more than just routine news reports about a single event or topic to constitute significant coverage. WP:NTEMP. Tabloid journalism is not significant coverage.

Also, I have already established that this was merely biographical material related to another person, and not Einstein. There is also Esterson's revealing recent entery on this talk page, which supports the contention that this was essentially a publicity stunt (certainly not noteworthy), i.e., "...from Ronald Clark's biography: "The assassination story was, in fact, made up by Locker-Lampson and 'leaked' to a London evening newspaper when the sale of tickets for the 'Einstein meeting' at the Royal Albert Hall was flagging." (p. 601) ---- Steve Quinn (talk) 07:09, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Furthermore, the following also supports that this material is based on a publicity stunt (as was already presented above):

• "In a drama worthy of a James Bond movie, Locker-Lampson had two young 'assistants' take Einstein up to a secluded cottage that he owned… There he was swept into a whirlwind of secrecy and publicity. The two young women posed next to him holding hunting shotguns for a picture that was given to the press agencies… " Walter Isaacson (2007, pp. 422-23) ---- Steve Quinn (talk) 08:02, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Comment summary

Although there are at least a dozen biographies of Einstein, and you both use Clark's to back up most of your comments, I'll stick with Clark's book to reply to the comments by Esterson and Quinn combined, since they are basically the same. Note also that Clark discusses Locker-Lampson on at least 18 pages, including one with a photo of him and Einstein.(p. 464)

You both write, "The paragraphs pertaining to Oliver Locker-Lampson appears to be off topic, and Einstein's stay with Oliver Locker-Lampson appears to be an insignificant detail. . . the relationship with Locker-Lampson appears to be trivial. . .[and] had no discernible impact on Einstein's life," etc. But Clark's book does not support that conclusion:

When Einstein was to decide where to go, writes Clark, "Einstein received a letter which was to have considerable repercussions later in the year." (p. 566) and Clark includes the text of Locker-Lampson's lengthy letter to Einstein two years earlier: That even Einstein should be without a home has moved me deeply and perhaps this justifies me, a modest M.P, in approaching you, the greatest scientist of our age. (p. 567)

Einstein himself made it clear that the visit was pivotal in his career:

"I shall become a naturalized Englishman as soon as it is possible for my papers to go through. Commander Locker-Lampson has already suggested to your Parliament that England should adopt me immediately. . . . I cannot tell you yet whether I shall make England my home. I do not know where my future lies." 603

You find POV pushing everywhere, which clearly violates guidelines to assume good faith:

"to have a quote surrounded by white space in the middle of a paragraph appears to be in contradiction to WP:UNDUE, and appears to be a single incidence of POV pushing . . . affect of making this quoted text stick out like a sore thumb."

Yet you yourself highlight a relatively minor point (above) using not only a blockquote and whitespace, but italics and a bullet! (And thanks for not also using all uppercase bold.) But for what purpose? So what if Clark thinks "The assassination story was, in fact, made up," because even if it was, it would only describe Locker-Lampson's dramatic promotional efforts. Clark also implies that even Churchill was not above using Einstein as a"pawn in the great game." (p. 600)

Whats more, your careful selection of a single quote, and concluding "that [because] the photo was posed for a publicity shoot only adds to the reasons for omitting this material," is nonsense and is contradicted by Clark[15] He points out, for example, that Einstein was being guarded in Belgium by the police (p. 601); that Germany had posted a $5,000 reward "for the man who would kill Einstein (p. 600); that Einstein's wife telephoned Locker-Lampson to ask if he would invite Einstein back "without delay"(p. 602); and a week earlier another German professor who fled to Czechoslovakia was "tracked down by Nazi thugs and murdered."(p. 600) So this "red herring" issue of whether Einstein's life was at risk is almost irrelevant, as it could equally be argued from Clark's book alone that Locker-Lampson did not protect Einstein enough. (see also biography by Denis Brian "Scotland Yard got wind of a plot to silence him for good and gave him an escort of two carloads of detectives." (p. 250)

You both complain about even mentioning other scientists who fled Germany. There is obviously every reason to put Einstein's fleeing Germany in the context of other German scientists who did the same thing for the same reasons. Attacking this logical point as "POV-pushing" is incredible.

But excluding the "red herrings" and cherry-picked quotes, your conclusion that Einstein's relationship with Locker-Lampson was trivial and had no impact on Einstein's life is shown to be false. What Clark makes clear is that his visit to England, his last ever, may have had an even greater effect on British science. Clark writes, "It is tantalizing to speculate on what might have happened" had Oxford's Clarendon called Einstein a day earlier, before he left for the U.S., to offer him a professorship at Oxford. "Only a couple of months earlier [Einstein] had prefaced his Herbert Spencer Lecture with the assurance the the links between himself and Oxford University were 'becoming progressively stronger' and many at Oxford expected that he would soon be added to the select band already settling there under Lindemann's auspices."613.

You have both now completely erased (diff) all mention of Locker-Lampson, and other valuable details, and replaced this significant visit, for both Einstein and Britain, with a shameful, "temporarily moving to England." --Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 04:17, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

• You yourself "bolded" text in this edit [16] to emphasize a point.

They were copies of already bolded section headings.--Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 18:07, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Refering to the above references: On page 566 it says their relationship would seem absurd. However, Locker-Lampson appreciated the fact that his association with Einstein would bring his nanme into the news. This just supports "publicity stunt". I will have to study the other references - however -

The other issue that biographical material about Locker-Lampson was placed in this article has not been addressed. This is a biographical article about Einstein. Therefore, a section that digresses into a biography about another person does not belong in this article. Will this issue be addressed or sidestepped? At the moment, tt appears to be an attempt to promote Locker-Lampson. Also, I notice that you have been recently editing the Locker-Lampson article. ---- Steve Quinn (talk) 09:14, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Prefacing who he was and explaining why he said or did what he did, is necessary for readability.--Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 18:07, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Locker-Lampson in the House of Commons in 1933: "That even Einstein should be without a home has moved me deeply…"

Yes, following the Nazis taking over his property and the fact that there was no way he could, or would want to, return to Germany after Hitler achieved power, he lost his home. That doesn't mean he was destitute, as Locker-Lampson's rather melodramatic appeal makes it seem. It was just a matter of his deciding where he would make his home – he had numerous offers of posts, unlike in the case of some scientists who fled Germany.

You write: "What Clark makes clear is that his visit to England, his last ever, may have had an even greater effect on British science."

Not really. As is well known, Einstein had by that stage long completed all the scientific work for which he is revered. By then he focused on trying (unsuccessfully) to produce a unified field theory to cover all the known forces (and as a sideline occasionally to try to find holes in quantum mechanics). But in the event he achieve nothing of any great consequence in the last period of his life. There is no reason to suppose that if he had taken up the Clarendon post he would have had more than a marginal effect on British science – not to mention the fact that there would have been plenty more lucrative and attractive offers to tempt him to the States.

You write: "You have both now completely erased (diff) all mention of Locker-Lampson, and other valuable details, and replaced this significant visit, for both Einstein and Britain, with a shameful, 'temporarily moving to England'."

The hospitality Einstein received in Belgium, where he mostly stayed on his return to Europe in 1933, was at least as important as his short stays in England in the sense of finding a temporary refuge. His lengthy friendship with Queen Elizabeth of Belgium lasted for more than twenty years, but she gets no mention on the Einstein page. This is right – it is a question of priorities, and because Wikipedia is not the same kind of thing as a popular biography.

I'm not saying Einstein's brief acquaintanceship with Locker-Lampson was negligible, only that he was only one of a huge number of people who impinged on Einstein's eventful life at one point or another, and it is neither feasible, nor appropriate, that he should be singled out for special mention. Esterson (talk) 18:48, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

You cite Clark as mentioning Locker-Lampson on 18 pages. I have just about all the biographies on Einstein, and Clark is the only one to give so much on him. Here are some comparisons of citings of L-L compared to Einstein's great friend (and early scientific confidant) Michele Besso in other major biographies. Isaacson: L-L 4, Besso 40; Fölsing: L-L 3, Besso 52; Brian: L-L 2, Besso 31; Neffe: L-L 0, Besso 36. That gives a better measure of Locker-Lampson's importance in Einstein's life than the fact that a single biographer decided to give him so much space. Again, Einstein's special friend Max Born has 60 entries in Clark, 40 in Isaacson, and 45 in Fölsing. Born gets only one passing mention on the Einstein Wikipedia page, and Besso none at all, because it is not a biography: the emphasis is (rightly) on material pertaining to the reason why Einstein is a major figure in science, and in relation to some important socio-political events in the first half of the twentieth-century. Esterson (talk) 07:05, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

The deletion of the few paragraphs on Locker-Lampson are not explained by those rationales. Whether the Belgian Queen gave him equal hospitality was irrelevant to his career options. The Clark book was used because you chose to cite it. You have both spent time and thousands of words attempting to justify why Locker-Lampson should be excluded, rather than simply using your combined expertise on Einstein and physics to simply add the missing references to Born, Besso and others. You could have done that in a few minutes, it appears. Using the scale of logic and common sense, your efforts seem seriously off balance, IMO. --Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 19:12, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

• I don't agree with Wikiwatcher's assessment. It appears material that was in this article pertaining to Locker-Lampson was given prominence that was out of proportion. Also, the the material was inappropriate - because it was biography of L.L. within a biography of Albert Einstein.

It appears to me that L.L.'s impact on Einstein's life was negligible compared to other contributors involved in his life. Esterson's comparison in the respective biographies really does show how much print L.L. deserves in this Wikipedia article. Specious arguments based on "enlightening" the reader about someone who appears to be motivated by generating good press for himself does not work. Neither does promotional journalism.

This is not a book, where every person known to Einstein can be covered (or has to be covered). This is a Wikipedia article. Einstein established his own notability through science first. His science has had a profound, almost indescribable impact. This was followed by his other non-scientific endeavors which are also certainly notable. Compare these events to images of females toting guns, or two males toting guns. Then compare Einstein's notable endeavors to the apparent (mediocre) desire of L.L. to gain empty publicity from this period in Einstein's life. It appears that the material pertaining to the Locker-Lampson, was off balance. And this is according to Wikipedia guidelines, not IMO or imho.

Furthermore, it is unreasonable to expand the article to include extra material about every lesser encounter with Einstein -- just to accommodate the least significant personalities. Not to mention, it was a biography of someone else, within the biography of Einstein.

One more thing - the statement "They were copies of already bolded section headings" is obviously a very weak rationale. Copying and pasting text to any Wikipedia page results in the same font. Therefore, bolding text has to be edited into the page. ---- Steve Quinn (talk) 06:12, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

The so called "biography" included the following details not directly related to Einstein: He was a "Royal Navy commander and former conservative Member of Parliament," who "spoke fluent German" and was "an outspoken opponent of the Nazis who 'flayed Hitlerite persecution of Jews.'" That's only 23 words! In relation to his helping Einstein obtain citizenship, etc, the few details are necessary, and is minimal compared to his "real" biography: Oliver Locker-Lampson.

Since I made it through basic math in school, I was able to come up with the following: This article, now that you've seriously trimmed the Science sections, is 11,125 words, excluding the references; The Clark book, which you both focused on to prove your points with quotes, is 725 pages. The 18 pages related to L-L in Clark amount to 2.5%; 2.5% of this trimmed article would be 278 words that could have been related to L-L to keep it in balance with Clark's biography. Hence, deleting all 23 words seems a bit extreme, especially now that you've both written thousands of words to justify it. --Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 07:59, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

You write of Locker-Lampson's "helping Einstein obtain citizenship", when you mean his proposing Einstein for citizenship. But however well-meaning Locker-Lampson may have been, since Einstein was only in England a very short time before leaving in October 1933 to take up his post in Princeton it wouldn't have been anything more than a sympathetic gesture for the Home Secretary to accelerate the process of naturalization rather than of any practical significance. Einstein wouldn't have needed to become naturalized had he wanted to stay in England longer.

As to your mathematical calculation, that presumes the equivalence of biographies and Wikipedia pages, which neither I nor Steve accepts. In any case, if you're going to do such a calculation you should have based it on (say) the five major (in terms of length) biographies, which would have given a very different result. On that argument, there should also be about the same number of words on Queen Elizabeth of Belgium, and many more on Besso, Born, and many other individuals than on Locker-Lampson. Esterson (talk) 13:13, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Einstein in England 1933

I have deleted the following passage in the section "Emigration from Germany":

According to the BBC, during those three weeks in hiding with Locker-Lampson, he worked on theories to produce a nuclear weapon. "This was a tremendously difficult thing for Einstein to do as a pacifist, but he knew that if the Americans did not get a nuclear bomb the Nazis may very well get it first, and that would be the end of the world," states McClaren. He concludes that the weeks Einstein spent at Norfolk "had tremendous repercussions for the future of the world."[46]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/norfolk/features/insideout_einstein.shtml

First, the story here is not according to the BBC, but from a writer called Stuart McClaren. I can find nothing about this writer, but what he says about Einstein working on theories to produce a nuclear weapon is not mentioned in any of the biographies of Einstein. It is difficult to conceive what kind of work this would be, especially at that early stage well before nuclear fission was discovered. I think it is evident that the story comes from someone who is completely ignorant of the physics, and without any evidence. This is far from a reliable or authoritative source, and not worthy for inclusion in Wikipedia.

I also propose to remove the first part of that paragraph:

British writer Stuart McClaren notes that Locker-Lampson was "the kind of man who couldn't stand anti-Semitism," and speculates that "some sort of scheme was concocted between the King of Belgium and Locker-Lampson and possibly Winston Churchill to get Einstein to safety."[46]

This again finds no confirmation in any Einstein biography, and appears to be nothing more than the speculation of a writer without him providing any evidence in support. Esterson (talk) 09:55, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

The rephrasing makes sense. But what's your opinion about the previous image question relating to this visit? --Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 20:05, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

See above.Esterson (talk) 21:34, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Special relativity—not general relativity—"effected a revolution in physics"

The first sentence in the article states that general relativity effected a revolution in physics. In fact it was the special theory of relativity which was so revolutionary.

In a recent article on CERN’s startup of the Large Hadron Collider after a 10-week shutdown, Robert Evans of Reuters and the Toronto Sun got it right when he said:

“New Physics, the motto of the LHC, refers to knowledge that will take research beyond the 'Standard Model' of how the universe works that emerged from the work of Albert Einstein and his 1905 Theory of Special Relativity.” (http://www.torontosun.com/news/world/2011/02/21/17353401.html) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.179.0.116 (talk) 22:41, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Albert Einstein's E=MC2 was not his idea

On November 29, 1903, Olinto De Pretto was the first person to introduce the theory that matter and energy are the same and related according to the precise formula E=mc2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olinto_De_Pretto

Albert Einstein wasn't the first person to theorize this. Please correct this. You have people believing that Einstein came up with the idea. -- Signed by Ron Paulian

See also Relativity priority dispute. Roger (talk) 11:03, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

The important question is not who first came up with a particular formula, but of the significance of the formula within the context of the theoretical structure out of which the formula is derived. De Pretto's theoretical framework evidently included a conventional view of the ether, whereas Einstein's removed the concept. The question one needs to ask is: Is De Pretto's theoretical framework accepted within modern physics?

Possibly one might consider the situation in regard to evolution as analogous. Plenty of people had suggested the idea, but it was Darwin who not only proposed a specific theoretical schema underlying the process, but developed the theory in great detail. Esterson (talk) 09:00, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Another example is the theory of continental drift, i.e., that the continents had once formed a single landmass. Several people had proposed this before it was fully formulated by Alfred Wegener in 1912. It is Wegener who is (rightly) credited with the idea in its developed form. Esterson (talk) 07:39, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Anyway, De Pretto's reasoning was completely invalid - something which his article failed to mention in the lead. Corrected! -- cheers, Michael C. Price ^talk 09:53, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Sinister

A recent broadcast by a BBC speaker claimed that Einstein "was left handed, which helped give him a somewhat different insight"

Was Einstein left handed?AT Kunene (talk) 10:07, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Not according to Chris McManus in Right Hand, Left Hand: The Origins of Asymmetry in Brains, Bodies, Atoms and Cultures. See page 301. Sean.hoyland - talk 16:45, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Not in this photograph Anyway, it sounds like a kooky theory to me.Esterson (talk) 16:02, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

God does not play dice with the universe

The phrase "God does not play dice" currently redirects to Albert Einstein. I suggest changing it to redirect to the Bohr–Einstein debates article.