Talk:The Bourgeois Blues/GA1

Latest comment: 9 years ago by IndianBio in topic GA Review

GA Review

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Reviewer: IndianBio (talk · contribs) 09:35, 7 August 2015 (UTC)Reply


Lead

Will continue later. —Indian:BIO [ ChitChat ] 10:17, 7 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

  • Though Lead Belly didn't know what the word "bourgeois" meant --> Though Lead Belly did not know what the word "bourgeois" meant
  • The song came together quickly; one account claims that it only took a few hours for Lead Belly to write it --> no need of a semicolon when it can be made a single sentence
    Hi there, I did the pre-GA copyedit on this article. The two clauses here can't be combined in the way you seem to be imagining ("The song came together quickly, one account claims that it only took a few hours for Lead Belly to write it") without creating a run-on sentence. The semicolon is used here to separate two sentences which are related in meaning but not grammatically intertwined. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 21:30, 8 August 2015 (UTC)Reply
  • Again an unsourced statement.
    • The statement above is cited by Scalera 2013. According to WP:GA? only direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons need to be cited. The criteria does not state that every line needs a cite. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 21:43, 8 August 2015 (UTC)Reply
      • This article is not limited to WP:GA? criteria. You are grossly failing WP:V and moving into WP:OR territory. If something is sourced in the previous line who told you that the end of a para does not need to be sourced? Do you seriously believe that a reader looking for a source to an accompanying text is going to look in the previous line? Moronic assumtiono pal. —Indian:BIO [ ChitChat ] 07:58, 9 August 2015 (UTC)Reply
  • sarcastically cites "the home of the brave, the land of the Free" --> Is this part of the lyrics? Unclear
  • Pretty sure somewhere in the fourth verse lines racism should be linked to a wiki.
  • "The Bourgeois Blues" follows a traditional twelve-bar blues format.[10] --> REference 10 is wrong, its sourced to the book R&L Education, which is actually publisher while the book's title is A Tribute to Woody Guthrie and Leadbelly, Teacher's Guide.
  • The song is set in the key of B♭ --> unsourced, as is the next line
    The source for this would be the song itself, no? The music would display the key signature it uses. I'm not particularly well-versed in music MOS stuff, but for a book it's generally understood that, for example, the book is the source for its own plot. The same seems reasonable for music. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 21:30, 8 August 2015 (UTC)Reply
    • No, music is open to interpretation unlike strict words written in a book. That is why it is imperative that very jargon related to it is sourced from the book that you are using. You believe that I'm moving into personal opinion, no I'm not. Music articles are what I write mostly and I know what kills or survives in an article about a song, albeit a blues one. —Indian:BIO [ ChitChat ] 07:58, 9 August 2015 (UTC)Reply
      I can understand that in cases like the lyric meanings you're questioning below, but for a key signature, it's literally just a fact: the sheet music (presumably; I don't have it handy) has a key signature of B flat and that would be clear to anyone who can read music. I mean, I suppose Guerillero could add a cite to "the song itself", if you demand it, but it seems pretty redundant to require a cite to the sheet music of the song every time the musical notation of...the sheet music of the song...is discussed. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 13:24, 9 August 2015 (UTC)Reply
      • Fluffernutter first of all thanks for taking time to understand the point and respond amicably. It is a kind of weird thing, but until and unless you add a proper cite, you cannot actually verify that the song was built on that particular key. Again as I said, it is open to interpretation, and I'm sure you would know that many people might listen to music, but hardly maybe 10% of them understands chords and keys. As an outsider if I'm reading this article and I'm like ... "Hey this article says the song is in B-flat, but my mama sang it in C sharp, why damn it be listing false, lemme correct it.. C sharp it is". And that's how disrupting editing starts. Trust me, every piece of information needs a source. The pop music articles are plagued with such editors, who revert and WP:EW on genres, keys, chords, etc on amny things. If you are still apprehensive I can bring you into the music related editors and you can also check out their opinions. —Indian:BIO [ ChitChat ] 13:38, 9 August 2015 (UTC)Reply
  • the song has been rerecorded and reimagined --> the song has been covered... the first artist is the one that actually records a track, every other artist after the first release is covering that track even if that means a new recording.
  • Theessink adapted the song to his style of European blues for the album Journey On --> Can we have some years here? Its pretty vague right now chronologically
  • The lyrics speak of the problems faced by young Australians in the Australian Capital Territory in the 1960s. --> unsourced
  • Bragg claims that the Iraq War --> overlink
  • In another, he takes on the Christian right, asking where the moderates are. Finally, Bragg chides the United States government for not dealing with poverty at home before going to war. --> unsourced, I'm not sure why such important piece of information are actually unsourced.
    Again, this seems to be summarizing the song itself. You could perhaps argue with word choice here, but the source for "the lyrics are about X" would be...the lyrics. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 21:30, 8 August 2015 (UTC)Reply
    And you were correct to do it Guirillero. To answer Fluffernutter I'm not sure about your editing expertise but yeah interpreting lyrics to own thoughts is WP:OR, and every interpretation would require source. To both of you, please look WP:GACR#2, "counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged". I'm challenging the unsourced statements here as the reviewer. You are free to ask for second opinion but I'm not passing this article and refuse to progress further unless the unsourced content are either removed or citation is added. You have seven days to do that else this article will fail and you are free to go for WP:GAR. —Indian:BIO [ ChitChat ] 07:58, 9 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

11 Aug

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@IndianBio: Can you take another look? --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 01:24, 12 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

Second-opinion review from Calvin999

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Indian-Bio asked me to leave a second-opinion here.

  • "The Bourgeois Blues", sometimes titled as "Bourgeois Blues", is a blues song by American folk and blues musician, Lead Belly. → I know it's in the title of the song, but 'blues' is used four times in one sentences. Omit 'blues' in "is a blues song by".
  • Washington DC to record for Alan Lomax. → Who is Alan Lomax?
  • You can't rely on someone always having to click on a link  — Calvin999 17:21, 14 August 2015 (UTC)Reply
    • Lets look at a random FA like say Whaam!, a painting that I like. It was passed in 2013 so it conforms to the modern versions of the FA criteria and the MOS. This is the first few lines, "Whaam! is a 1963 diptych painting by the American artist Roy Lichtenstein. It is one of the best-known works of pop art, and among Lichtenstein's most important paintings. Whaam! was first exhibited at the Leo Castelli Gallery in New York City in 1963, and purchased by the Tate Gallery, London, in 1966. It has been on permanent display at Tate Modern since 2006." the reviewers seemed perfectly content with letting terms like diptych, Pop Art and Tate Modern be explained only through links in the lead. Therefore, this is an invalid concern. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 18:28, 14 August 2015 (UTC)Reply
  • It rails against racism and Jim Crow laws and tells → What od you mean by "rails against"? Also, repetition of 'and'
  • See here for a definition of "rails". As for "and", yes, it is used twice, because syntactically the two "and"s are conjoining two different sets of things: [racism and Jim Crow] and [rails and tells]. I could tweak the sentence to not need the two "and"s, but it's unlikely to be any less awkward in another construction, really. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 18:45, 12 August 2015 (UTC)Reply
  • In addition, questions have been raised over the role of Lead Belly in the American Communist party and whether he and his song were being used to further the party's political goals. The party denies these allegations. → I don't think this is needed in the lead, doesn't seem relevant.
    ?  — Calvin999 17:21, 14 August 2015 (UTC)Reply
    There is a whole section of the legacy section about lead belly and the communist party. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 18:28, 14 August 2015 (UTC)Reply
  • He was invited by the folklorist Alan Lomax to record tracks for the Library of Congress's folk music collection in June 1937. → Why didn't you use this phrasing the lead? It makes more sense.
  • they encountered Jim Crow laws similar → What are these?
    • So far that's three links you expect me to click on to gain further knowledge on something that you don't feel needs explaining here?  — Calvin999 17:21, 14 August 2015 (UTC)Reply
      • Ibid. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 18:28, 14 August 2015 (UTC)Reply
        We're expected to explain "highly technical" terms in situ, but to wikilink to "people, events, and topics that already have an article or that clearly deserve one, so long as the link is relevant to the article in question," deciding based on "How likely is it that the reader will also want to read that other article?" (that's all direct from WP:BTW). Things like Alan Lomax's life story, the history of Jim Crow laws in the USA, etc are topics that will deepen readers' understanding of the background of the song, so it's appropriate to link them and to expect readers who want more information to click on them. There's no few-word explanation for "this the name of a person with a significant history of involvement in the civil rights era", and thus it's more appropriate to direct readers to articles on those people than to interject their biographies into this article. However, since "Jim Crow law" is somewhat opaque on its own to someone who knows nothing of American history, I've tweaked that sentence slightly to add more detail. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 18:48, 14 August 2015 (UTC)Reply
  • What does the picture of Lead Belly and Martha add to this article? There is no description caption which helps to inform the reader.
  • I really don't see what the point of that green box is. It doesn't explain or add anything to the article.
  • is a blues-style → Blues style is not the same as a blues song. It means it is in the style of, meaning borrowing elements. If it is blues-style, then it should not be included in the info box
  • You don't mention folk anywhere in the composition section, so why is it in the info box?
  • From a structure point of view, I don't understand why you've made a separate Music section with just three short sentences. There's no reason why this couldn't go in the Composition section above.
  • He rerecorded the song in April 1939 → Shouldn't rerecorded be hyphenated?
  • Why isn't Template:Lead Belly included at the bottom of the article (This song should be added to this template, by the way).

 — Calvin999 10:17, 12 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

There's nothing else I can add here. The nominator isn't willing to co-operate on some issues.  — Calvin999 10:54, 16 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

I have removed unsourced genre folk. All genres have to be "strictly" sourced and the nominator's rationale that its used in WP:RS does not hold candle here. —Indian:BIO [ ChitChat ] 11:07, 16 August 2015 (UTC)Reply
Because a footnote to a University Press book isn't good enough... I'm done here. Do what you want --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 14:01, 16 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

Just as a note for future use, Template:Cite_web#Publisher is still being used and the column size is not mentioned in WP:ACCESS and further Template:Reflist recommends using 30em or 20em. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 14:01, 16 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

After much changes and discussions and compromises, this article is standing in good shape for me to list it as a GA. Congratulations on promoting such an old blues song to GA. —Indian:BIO [ ChitChat ] 13:53, 22 August 2015 (UTC)Reply