Talk:Sukhumi

Photos

I wanted to let everyone editing this article know that I have 19 photos taken in Abkhazia in 2014 uploaded to the Commons and available here should you have any need. All of the photos were taken in the capital. Interlaker (talk) 00:18, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

Title of the article

Hello, On 16 September 2015, at the request of the Permanent Mission of Georgia to the United Nations, the map of Georgia was updated on the website of the Geospatial Information Section of the United Nations. The English language orthography of several cities on Georgia's Black Sea coast has been changed in accordance with the established norms of Georgian toponyms: სოხუმი/Sokhumi, ბიჭვინთა/Bichvinta, ახალი ათონი/Akhali Atoni, გულრიფში/Gulripshi and ოჩამჩირე/Ochamchire. [[1]] [[2]] According to this regulations, made by the United Nations, please, change the title of the article into Sokhumi and use this form in any other articles of Wikipedia. Also note, that according to this official UN map of Georgia, the primary name of Abkhazia part of Georgia is Abkhazeti. Thank you! Abkhazian1 (talk) 06:44, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

• We are very happy to hear it:) But the UN are not in charge of Wikipedia and in English language it is right to say Sukhumi and Abkhazia, so we must leave it as it is now. P.s: if we need to change the article about Georgian Abkhazia, do it. But the Abkhazia independent state article must be left as it is now. Best regards, Ilya Drakonov (talk) 09:51, 18 September 2015 (UTC).
  • You are very biased, Илья. :* Abkhazian1 (talk) 08:14, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
    • Agree with Abkhazian1, this issue needs more attention (again), and I think we must start new discussion about its renaming. UN is place where is no russian influence and they know what is reality. Name Sukhumi was used under Soviet regime I think after Georgia's independence it is time to name everything with its proper name. Toponym of this place is Sokhumi and it must to affect on article's title.--g. balaxaZe★ 00:07, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

Russia is a permanent member of the UNSC. It has considerable influence. CMD (talk) 05:57, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

CMD, It's OK with Russian influence. What do you think regarding the title? Abkhazian1 (talk) 08:02, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

It's tricky. Looking through the google results for both, Sukhumi still seems more common in English sources overall, whereas Sokhumi is much more common in sports and discussing the university, as well as in all Georgian English sources. It does look like Sokhumi is increasingly on the rise, but hasn't overtaken Sukhumi yet. WP:NCGN notes two tests for when names are hard to determine (and I would suggest Sokhumi has increased in prominence enough to be a contender), Google hits and local linguistic majority. Google hits would indicate Sukhumi as still slightly ahead, and I do not know what form Abkhaz speakers prefer. CMD (talk) 15:42, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

CMD, I'm absolutely agree with you, but:

• ″The English language orthography of several cities on Georgia's Black Sea coast has been changed...″ - this was officialy stated on the website of the Permanent Mission of Georgia to the United Nations. (see here: [[3]]). As I know, Google is not a regulatory agency or something like that to fix or approve names (toponyms in this case). So, since 15 sept 2015, according the statement delivered by the PM of Georgia to the UN and accepted by the UN, on the other hand, the fully qualified official English name for the city is "Sokhumi". We are talking about English Wikipedia, not about German or Swahili one... Of course "Sokhumi" hasn't overtaken "Sukhumi" yet. How could it be happen in a couple of months?
• Anyway, as for Google (maps), please, check this: [[4]]
• As for me, it is less importance "So-" or "Su-". Just since the date, mentioned above, the official English name begins with "So-". So, simply, that's why we should to change it. Regards, Abkhazian1 (talk) 20:04, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

English Wikipedia does not use WP:OFFICIALNAMES. Both names are English names, in that they are used in English. I believe the UN and Google Maps positions are already noted in the article. CMD (talk) 01:09, 21 February 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I was trying to explain this to him. But he wouldn't listen. Ilya Drakonov (talk) 07:01, 21 February 2016 (UTC).

The linguistic majority (which is important per WP:NCGN) in this case is firmly on the side of Sukhumi, by the way. Alæxis_¿question? 19:11, 21 February 2016 (UTC)

Yes, almost everybody in Abkhazia call there capital "Сухум", which is close to "Sukhumi". This must be taken as a reason too. Ilya Drakonov (talk) 07:12, 22 February 2016 (UTC).

Infobox skyline

Option 1

Option 2

There is an ongoing dispute about whether the infobox should use File:Scruj23.JPG or File:Sokhumi Collage.jpg. My personal preference would be for one image which is as representative as possible, showing something more than a single building. I would also rather a single image than a collection of images, and so I would prefer the first one despite its lighting and composition being not as good. I haven't found anything that jumps out at me on commons, although suggestions are welcome. CMD (talk) 17:19, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

• Agree with CMD, also this main photo must to show to readers urban landscape of the city but in this collage 50% of photo is useless, if they are interested in nature or in flags they can find this information and photos in respective articles of English Wikipedia.--g. balaxaZe★ 21:13, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
• I can ask my friend who made this collage to change some photos. Ilya Drakonov (talk) 07:41, 7 March 2016 (UTC).
• Collages can work (like New York City or Toronto) but I don't very much like this particular collage, as one of the five pictures is just of trees, which doesn't seem to identify the city, and another is just of flags. A collage could work for this page, but the pictures should, in my opinion, show the city's most distinctive landmarks or features. So between these two options, I prefer Option 1. /wiae /tlk 04:17, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
• I prefer two Option 2. --Prianespings (talk) 14:30, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
• Change images Option 2 here [5]. --Mtherwjs (talk) 10:43, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
• Only prefer means nothing, those last users who voted for option 2 what are your arguments? --g. balaxaZe★ 20:33, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
  • @Giorgi Balakhadze: can edit protected [6]. --Mtherwjs (talk) 03:59, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
    •  Done. --Mtherwjs (talk) 13:38, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
      •  Comment: Account was global locked. 204.74.216.197 (talk) 05:11, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
    • 2 option support page change others languages (with a better developed images on German Wikipedia and Russian Wikipedia). 31.220.110.89 (talk) 13:57, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
• Option 1 is actually old. The town does not remain to look like that now. The fact that there are "separatists flags", Mr. Balakhadze, says that they exist there. You mean you want to see Georgian flags in a place that Georgia never controlled and does not control now? It is nonsence. I do not think that anybody would care about a photo if you would not start saying about it. I mean, if we hide flags of Abkhazia, we hide the situation that is there now. It means, that we hide the truth. If you say NPOV here, I say — WP:IGNORE. Ilya Drakonov (talk) 14:12, 28 March 2016 (UTC).
• I don't like Option 1 because the photo quality is poor and because the city did change in 10 years. Regarding the second option I don't like banners and trees as they do not uniquely characterise the city. Three other photos of the collage depict landmarks like Railway station and colonnade, so I'd add views of "ordinary" city. I'll try to find something in the Commons and in my own archive (though it's also rather dated). Alæxis_¿question? 20:32, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
• Ilya Drakonov stop dreaming and read more slowly and carefully what other users write, yes what you wrote it is nonsense, nobody says to put there flags! Only brain-washed will decide to put flag as a city landscape. Stop this latent pro-separatism and if you want to be real member of Wiki community edit without bias! On this photo we need only city monuments and view without politics! --g. balaxaZe★ 10:56, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
• All active users wrote here that it is wrong to put trees and flags but you still changed photos in other Wikipedias and you even blocked Abkhazian Wiki article with this photo. This region is very sensitive and we must consider both sides.--g. balaxaZe★ 11:02, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

I did not block the Abkhaz artcile. It is for editing of autoconfirmed users to prevent vandalism. You can open a local discussion there too:) Ilya Drakonov (talk) 11:03, 3 April 2016 (UTC).

Option 2 this support. 209.239.112.28 (talk) 11:53, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

File:Sokhumi Collage.jpg user not change. --BasBibi (talk) 13:57, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

 Already done changed photo. 204.74.216.197 (talk) 05:11, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Edit-warring by Deffrman

The wildly edit-warring new user User:Deffrman, who has been reverted by four editors so far today, is making the same vandal edits as 2001:e10:6840:21:20c:6eff:fe07:58e3. He has not explained his edits, nor left useful edit-summaries despite requests to do so. --Tenebrae (talk) 04:09, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

Not block not edit warning. --Deffrman (talk) 04:11, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

This user is actually a sock of User:Boxtools. I've blocked him in Chechen Wiki and his IP adresses are blocked in Wikimedia Incubator. So I think he can leave.. Ilya Drakonov (talk) 11:55, 10 March 2016 (UTC).

Semi-protected edit request on 14 March 2016

Change images. --Mtherwjs (talk) 17:41, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

Adding images. Mtherwjs (talk) 17:41, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

Not done: Please make your request for a new image to be uploaded to Files For Upload. Once the file has been properly uploaded, feel free to reactivate this request to have the new image used.
Please note that the picture must not be copyright, which excludes almost all images that you find on the internet, in magazines etc., and you will need proof that it is not copyright, just saying it is not copyright is not acceptable. - Arjayay (talk) 17:51, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 March 2016

Here [7]. Mtherwjs (talk) 10:22, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

Can admin and auto users protected. Mtherwjs (talk) 10:22, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

• Dear sysops, I would fully protect this article if I were you. And also, I think that Mr Mtherwjs is a sock, because he has a low level of English, like the ones before. Ilya Drakonov (talk) 15:24, 16 March 2016 (UTC).
  • Not sock. --Mtherwjs (talk) 15:24, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

Close request, there does not appear to be any actual request for an edit here. -- GB fan 17:22, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 15 March 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Consensus is clearly against this move proposal. (non-admin closure) Egsan Bacon (talk) 12:47, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

---

Sukhumi → Sukhumi (city) – Admin and auto users can move page. Mtherwjs (talk) 10:33, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose. Unnecessary disambiguation. The Drover's Wife (talk) 11:33, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose and close. What on earth is the reason for this move? In ictu oculi (talk) 11:40, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose per above. Ilya Drakonov (talk) 11:58, 15 March 2016 (UTC).
• Oppose  InsertCleverPhraseHere  12:01, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
• Comment @Mtherwjs: Why? -- 70.51.46.39 (talk) 05:14, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose, reason plain silly.--Zoupan 18:18, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

---

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Semi-protected edit request on 24 March 2016

Change image. 173.236.126.98 (talk) 17:17, 24 March 2016 (UTC)

Here. 173.236.126.98 (talk) 17:17, 24 March 2016 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 19:12, 24 March 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 April 2016

Change images. 2A01:5F20:0:0:0:0:0:24 (talk) 11:15, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

Change images wikis. 2A01:5F20:0:0:0:0:0:24 (talk) 11:15, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

Not done: Please make your request for a new image to be uploaded to Files For Upload. Once the file has been properly uploaded, feel free to reactivate this request to have the new image used.
Please note that the picture must not be copyright, which excludes almost all images that you find on the internet, in magazines etc., and you will need proof that it is not copyright, just saying it is not copyright is not acceptable. - Arjayay (talk) 12:25, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 April 2016

Change images Sokhumi Collage.jpg. --BasBibi (talk) 14:21, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Not theat. BasBibi (talk) 14:21, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Cannolis (talk) 14:32, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 April 2016

Add links. 188.32.110.251 (talk) 14:33, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

Not done: as you have not requested a specific change in the form "Please replace XXX with YYY" or "Please add ZZZ between PPP and QQQ".
More importantly, you have not cited reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to, or changed in, any article. - Arjayay (talk) 14:49, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

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Odishi and Tskhumi

Tskhumi served as capital of the Odishi-Megrelian rulers, it was in this city that Vamek I (c. 1384-1396), the most influential Dadiani, minted his coins. Documents of the 15th century clearly distinguished Tskhumi from Principality of Abkhazia.<ref>[http://www.amsi.ge/istoria/div/m.lordkiPaniZe_abkh.html "THE ABKHAZIANS AND ABKHAZIA" Mariam Lordkipanidze.]</ref>

I couldn't find any of these two facts in the Lordkipanidze's article. Georgiano, could you check it? Alaexis_¿question? 14:11, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

"According to Arabic (al-Muhibbi and al-Kalkashandi) and West European (Iosaphat Barbaro) sources, in the 14th-15th centuries Megrelia “stretched to Circassia,” which means that Abkhazia up to Circassia was within Odishi, while “Dadimani (Dadiani) ruled Sokhumi and Abkhaz.” Tskhumi-Sokhumi was the capital of the Odishi-Megrelian rulers, it was in this city that Vamek I (1384-1396), the most influential of the Dadianis, minted his coins."

"Documents of the 15th century clearly distinguished Sukhumi (Tskhumi) from Abkhazia."Georgiano (talk) 14:36, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for adding the Papaskiri's article. Regarding the documents distinguishing Abkhazia and Sukhumi, the source doesn't say which documents do this. She does say "According to Archangello Lamberti (mid-17th cent.), Dranda, Mokvi, Ilori, and Bedia were in Egrisi." but it's about 17th century and it's not about distinguishing between Abkhazia and Sukhumi, Egrisi being an old name for the region that encompassed both and much more. Unless there are better sources confirming this, I would lose it, or at least attribute it very clearly. Alaexis_¿question? 09:52, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

References

Colchians and Abkhazia

The statement that the Colchians inhabited all of today's Abkhazia (The Colchian tribes (ethnically Georgian) were the first to inhabit this territory where they founded the first Georgian kingdom approximately on all the territory of present-day Abkhazia) is contentious and misleading. I haven't seen it in reliable works on the history of the region. Braund writes about the multitude of languages spoken in Dioskurias (Georgia in Antiquity, p. 59).

The added source is Georgian so we need to take into account potential biases. See Nation-building in the Post-Soviet Borderlands by Smith et al, pp. 54-55

“ During recent decades there has been a trend in Georgian scholarship to argue that the ancient population of Colchis, including what is now Abkhazia, was made up entirely of Georgian tribes. More cautious Georgian scholars used to distinguish between two components amongst the local population of the Colchis Lowland about two thousand years ago, namely the Georgians and the Abkhazians-Adyghes ”

So it's not even the consensus position among Georgian scholars. The article about Sukhumi is not a place to go into all these details. Alaexis_¿question? 13:55, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

Name origins

Currently it's written in one place that Tskhumi means beech and in another place that it means hornbeam in Georgian. Only the former statement is referenced, could someone confirm that it indeed means beech?

In the same section it's said that the Greek name Dioskuria has Georgian origin as well ("But, the names of the town must be the Greek comprehension of the old Georgian word combination. It is significant, that “dia” in several dialects of the Georgian language and among them in Megrelian means mother and “Skuri” means water.") To me it seems far-fetched and the typo in the name of the source (assays instead of essays) doesn't inspire confidence in the reliability of the provided source. What are your thoughts? Alaexis_¿question? 19:13, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

@Alaexis: the etymology you just removed wrt. Dioskuria is probably folk etymology, however it's not completely without merit. "skuri" doesn't mean water in Mingrelian but rather "narrow gorge (dry or with river); stream and its banks". Just to clarify, the confusion with the Georgian source is that the Georgian word წყალი "water" can also mean "river". So it's simply a bad translation from Georgian. კვარია (talk) 09:57, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

If they got the translation wrong it makes me doubt this source even more. If there are better sources I'm fine with including this - whether as a hypothesised true or folk etymology. Alaexis_¿question? 10:12, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

@Alaexis: I'll look for a better source. In the meantime I created an entry for skuri (სქური) over at Wiktionary.

PS: Tskhumi in Svan indeed means only hornbeam. კვარია (talk) 11:25, 10 March 2022 (UTC)