Talk:Saudi Pro League

NPOV Edits and Sources

As I've said on other pages, I'm seeing many NPOV edits in this article, and many other related articles as well. For instance, all articles of the premier league actual beginning have been edited with faulty sources (outdated FIFA editorials on Saudi clubs). The RSSSF and the Saudi Arabia Football Federation both hold and state that the beginning of the Saudi Premier League was in 1975-76. It was named the Categorization League (الدوري التصنيفي) because it was the first league, thus, it decided who gets to play in the first division. The next season was then officially called the Premier League. According to official records and sources, the categorization league was without a doubt an official league that was organized by the SAFF, and it was the beginning of the premier league. In other words, it was the first Premier League, it was just named differently because it decided who gets to play in it. What's more ludicrous, the RSSSF page is still cited in the External Links section. FIFA itself admits that the articles they made were editorials, and are not representative of total actual titles, how should they be used as a source instead? I'm reverting this and I hope we can hold it up for discussion instead. MedStudentIMAMU (talk) 20:41, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Hello MedStudentIMAMU, you can see in this page FIFA.com title "Making of a legend" they say " it was natural that they emerged as the inaugural winners when the current Saudi Premier League came into existence in the 1976/77 season". I think FIFA is an official source. But can you tell me where the Saudi Arabia Football Federation say that the beginning of the Saudi Premier League was in 1975-76? because i researched in English and Arabic but i didn't find any thing.

Finaly forgive me for my bad English language. حزل (talk) 00:28, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Hello to you as well, I would appreciate that you would refrain from editing the article until this is resolved. To begin with, the source you listed is an editorial piece, as such, it does not present itself as an archived record, nor does it claim to be the source for decades of Saudi football history. It is just that, an editorial, written for their Classic Football feature. RSSSF on the other hand, is a governing organization on matters of historical records, and it lists the beginning of the Premier League in 1975, with Al Nassr as its first champion. Furthermore, this is also confirmed by the SAFF (Saudi Arabia Football Federation), on the following web page: [1]. To quote:

وقد أحرز نادي الوحدة من مدينة مكة المكرمة أول بطولة دوري سعودي لكرة القدم "بمسمى الدوري العام على كأس الملك" ثم تم توحيده عام 1975 بمسمى "الدوري الممتاز على الدرع " و لعبت أول :: نسخة منه بمسمى "الدوري التصنيفي" لأن الفرق كان يتم تصنيفها كدرجة ممتازة أو كدرجة أولى بحسب نتائجها في ذلك الموسم من الدوري السعودي ، ومن ثم في عام 1991 م تغير مسماه إلى كأس دوري خادم الحرمين الشريفين بعد استحداث نظام "المربع الذهبي". وفي 2007 تم إلغاء المربع الذهبي وتسميته بالمسمى الحالي.

This roughly translates to:

Al Wehda Club from Makkah achieved the first Saudi League with the name "General League for the King's Cup" (this was a general league that qualifies clubs for the king's cup, and not an actual premier league). Then, the league was unified in 1975 and held the name "The Premier League for the Shield" (this was the name of the premier league back then, the shield referred to the league's shield for 1st place winners), and the first version of this league was played in the name The Categorization League, because the teams were categorized as Premier and First divisions depending on their results on this season of the Premier League. Then, in 1991, the Premier League yet again changed its name to "Cup of the Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques League" after the inclusion of The Golden Square rule (they're basically league finals), and in 2007, the Golden Square was cancelled it was just named the "Premier League".

SAFF pretty much says that the Categorization League was just the name of the first Premier League.

Now, who should we follow, an editorial piece on a FIFA feature, that states on the same page that none of the stated is an absolute factual representation, and is prune to mistakes, or a record body, and the football federation of the respective league itself? Regards. MedStudentIMAMU (talk) 03:54, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

You should know the difference between The SAFF and Saudi Pro League Association (رابطة دوري المحترفين السعودي), because The SAFF until now did not say when the Saudi premier league began. I visit the page that you mentioned (spl.com.sa) and i see the web is just an experimental (تجريبي), not yet an official. So you have RSSSF as source that the beginning of Saudi premier league was in 1975, when FIFA web say it was in 1976. We should follow an official source till The SAFF maybe some day will document the history of Saudi premier league. I hope you do not remove my edits which is supported by official sources.

Also i found that you change in Qualification and prize money section, if you do not know that the top three of Saudi pro league and king's cup winner qualifier then look at 2012-13 season as an example, Al-Nassr was in 4th place but did not qualifier to AFC Champions League 2014 because Al Ittihad was the winner of king's cup. Since 2013, King's cup changed by featured a total of 32 teams. Now i think your edits are vandalism. حزل (talk) 13:10, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

SPL is a part of SAFF, what you're saying is absolutely redundant. You're trying to separate the two bodies from each other, as if that would make the Premier League association illegitimate in its claims, to which both attempts are false (the SPL is a part of the SAFF, and the SPL claims are legitimate). Add to that, what does even experimental sources mean? The website states that it is in beta, as in, it is not yet complete... It says nothing about about sources being "experimental" and/or unofficial. The accusation about changing prize money section is blatant personal attack, since I merely reverted your edits, and never wrote anything on such section. You either do not know how Wikipedia works, or you are trying to discredit me by using ad hominem that characterizes me as a vandal. Please keep discussion within senses. FIFA never said the Premier League started in 1976, it merely stated that the inaugural premier league was at that year, which is true. The season before had a premier league in play as well, however, it was just named differently because it combined clubs to categorize them in Premier and First divisions, doing this as the first official Premier League to form in Saudi Arabia's history, as stated by the Saudi Pro League Association, which is a branch of the SAFF body. The Categorization League is the first premier league, it just was not a premier league that is in its purest form (it was the first, so it had to outline who plays in top flight and who doesn't for the next season, the naming in itself is an indication of that). MedStudentIMAMU (talk) 13:37, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

I will not repeat the same talking about FIFA source, because you do not want to accept it. I just want to remembering you that FIFA say under Al Nassr club achievements FIFA.com, to quote "The honours listed above are considered to be the club’s major titles and, as such, are not intended to be a full list of achievements", that means there are achievements in other competitions like: GCC Champions League, but do not mean that they forgot to count a Saudi premier league season. I am not against your edits, but i have to take official sources in this article. حزل (talk) 15:01, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

You say you only accept official sources on the matter, yet you refuse the SPL's official stance on the matter, as well as the RSSSF records. It's not that I do not accept the FIFA article, it's just that it's an editorial, as opposed to other materials that are much more record-oriented. In such cases, official bodies, and academic institutions to document history are the way to go, and they both say it was started in 1975-76. I mean, heck, even the Premier League body itself states this, what's there more to discuss? A NPOV editorial written on a FIFA feature? This is Wikipedia, and it should be encyclopedic. Not everything on FIFA's site should be taken as holy grail and cited, especially editorials. Editorials are NPOV, the same article you use, utilizes NPOV wording such as describing clubs as "Vanguards", "Legendary", "All-time Superpowers", etc. It's simply not an academic source, nor does it claim to be the official space. Even honors' mentions in the feature, as you said, are not fully accurate, as stated by FIFA itself. MedStudentIMAMU (talk) 15:34, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

I did not refuse SPL!, i said this website till now is an experimental, but if we talk about it, that they said in 1975-76 was named Categorization League (not Premier League), after then in 1976-77 began Saudi Premier League and Saudi First Division League. Finaly, this article talk about Saudi Premier League not Saudi League, because SPL website mentioned that the beginning of Saudi League was in 1951. Thank you and i hope you understand what i mean even if my English language is not good. حزل (talk) 16:26, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

The website is not "experimental", it is in beta stages, and that's due to web design and development reasons, not because of the content, so please, be specific about this point. The association literally says that the first Saudi Premier League was the Categorization League and that it was called this way because it defined who gets to stay in order to play in the next season and who was going to get relegated in the newly created First Division. The original name of the Categorization League was, and still is, according to the SPL Association, The Premier League for the Shield. The unique naming was to reflect its one-time results. Much like how ALJ League now reflects the sponsorship of Toyota Motors to the Saudi League by its ALJ branch. MedStudentIMAMU (talk) 16:36, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

It is not in beta stages as you say, it is written in Arabic (تجريبي) which means an experimental. Then they do not say Saudi Premier league began in 1975, from your translation "the league was unified in 1975" then was named as Categorization League. You should remember that we discuss about Saudi Premier league not Saudi League. If we added Categorization League, so we have to add the hole seasons of Saudi league which was started in 1951. حزل (talk) 16:47, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

You are being incoherent, and you're not making much sense. The word تجريبي, translates to experimental, but this is the Arabic equivalent of beta in English. Closest example would be the the Arabic Wikipedia translating the Beta option next to user preferences as تجريبي option. Quite frankly, your English is not good enough in order for us to reach a sensible conclusion, and I'm not sure if you're qualified to edit English language articles. At the very least, you do not know English equivalents of Arabic words.. As I've said before, and right now, it appears you're simply denying the sources I provided, or your Arabic is limited. Because the sources I provided, once again, state:

تم توحيده عام 1975 بمسمى "الدوري الممتاز على الدرع " و لعبت أول :: نسخة منه بمسمى "الدوري التصنيفي" لأن الفرق كان يتم تصنيفها كدرجة ممتازة أو كدرجة أولى بحسب نتائجها في ذلك الموسم :: من الدوري السعودي ، ومن ثم في عام 1991 م تغير مسماه إلى كأس دوري خادم الحرمين الشريفين بعد استحداث نظام "المربع الذهبي". وفي 2007 تم إلغاء المربع الذهبي وتسميته بالمسمى الحالي.

Again, this literally translates to: The Leagues were unified in 1975, and were named "The Premier League for the Shield", and the first version of this league was played in the name of "The Categorization League" due to categorizing who gets to stay in top flight and who gets relegated.. If you understand Arabic, or English, either should be enough to tell you that this was the kickstart of the premier league. Furthermore, you appear to be willing to Edit-War this article. Out of good faith, I will cease editing until other parties get involved so we can resolve this nonsensical dispute once and for all. MedStudentIMAMU (talk) 17:28, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Why you did not translate the hole sentence?

و لعبت أول نسخة منه بمسمى "الدوري التصنيفي" لأن الفرق كان يتم تصنيفها كدرجة ممتازة أو كدرجة أولى بحسب نتائجها في ذلك الموسم من الدوري السعودي

your translation: the first version of this league was played in the name of "The Categorization League" due to categorizing who gets to stay in top flight and who gets relegated, the missed part according to their result in this season of Saudi League. They wrote Saudi League Season which is not count as Saudi Premier League Season. Be specific when you translate again and do not translate what is support your idea and did not translate what does not you like, because not all people in English Wikipedia speak Arabic or know it. حزل (talk) 18:19, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

What?! This is insulting, not only can you not speak English, nor can you even form a single sentence correctly, you still have the audacity to pass me as biased, after your edit warring, constant removal of sources, continuous omissions. This is rich. And here I am saying that I will maintain good faith. This is completely ludicrous. First of all, you can't even translate that sentence right. When it said "بحسب نتائجها في ذلك الموسم من الدوري السعودي", this literally means "depending on their result from this season of the Saudi League." Now, since you appear to not understand basic concepts of English, or Arabic, for that matter, this was clearly in reference to The Premier League for the Shield. Since you have no grasp of context, what this means is that: the first version of The Premier League for the Shield was played in the name of "The Categorization League" due to categorizing who gets to stay in top flight and who gets relegated, because teams in that "Premier League for the Shield" season got categorized as Premier teams and First Division teams. Simply put, what you keep spewing is outrageous, because while I wait for more parties to weigh in on the subject, you levy insults towards me. If anything, you should be prevented from editing English articles on Wikipedia, because none of your contributions so far seem helpful, neither to readers, as it is misleading, nor to other editors, as you are completely disrespectful right now. MedStudentIMAMU (talk) 18:56, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

This is a personal attack, so here i am done with you. حزل (talk) 19:11, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

References

Requested move 24 July 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved. (non-admin closure) Adumbrativus (talk) 02:11, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

---

Saudi Professional League → Saudi Pro League – Per WP:COMMONNAME. League is very rarely referred to as Saudi Professional League, much more commonly as Saudi Pro League. Paul Vaurie (talk) 17:29, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

• Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. GiantSnowman 19:54, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
• Support per nom, official website refers to itself accordingly. GiantSnowman 19:56, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
• Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 04:38, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
• Support per nom, recognized more. RavenRTC (talk) 10:17, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Request to delete …

“ The scheme has been described as "sportswashing" by outside observers.”

The sentence takes the meaning out of the purpose of this article. This article is supposed to give sports information about the league, figures and data, and not newspaper words or biased opinions. Please remove it from the moderators. 77.31.222.94 (talk) 22:32, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 August 2023

change "French start Kylian Mbappé" to "French star Kylian Mbappé" Dwarftoss (talk) 04:14, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

 Already done M.Bitton (talk) 12:05, 17 August 2023 (UTC)