Talk:Mandarin (late imperial lingua franca)

Title

@Kanguole: The current title seems unecessarily wordy. Any suggestions about what might be better?--Prisencolin (talk) 19:48, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

You're talking about the parenthetical disambiguation (which never appears in visible text) rather than the title proper. I don't see brevity there as worth overriding accuracy and clarity. Kanguole 22:47, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

As far as I know, the parenthetical dab is still affected by WP:CONCISE if possible. How about just Mandarin (late imperial)?--Prisencolin (talk) 03:59, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

That could be one of these guys. Most of the arguments for conciseness relate to use of the title in text, which reduces the weight of this criterion compared with the others against which it must be balanced. Kanguole 15:41, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

@Kanguole and Prisencolin: I agree the title is very unwieldy. How about using Guanhua per the WP:NATURAL principle? -Zanhe (talk) 01:58, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

It's not very common in English, though, is it? (And it's still ambiguous in Chinese.) Kanguole 09:56, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

Ngram returns lots of results for "Guanhua" and "Kuan-hua", although I'm not sure whether they are mostly about the current topic. -Zanhe (talk) 05:12, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

Origin of Beijing dialect

I have reverted additions claiming that Beijing dialect arose from Manchus attempting to speak Nanjing dialect and spread to Han Nanjing-speakers in Beijing and environs. This is not only unsourced, but contradicts the sources we have, which suggest that the dialects of the Beijing area were already distinctive by the Yuan period. Kanguole 00:28, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 23 May 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Not moved. See general agreement not to use the proposed title for this article. Also see a trend to indicate that this article needs a new title. In these cases I usually just pick a new title from suggestions; however, there is no consensus for any particular suggested title. So there is no prejudice for editors to continue to discuss this and try again in a few months to garner consensus for a better name/disambiguator (other than "Guanhua") for this article. Have a Great Day and Happy Publishing! (nac by page mover)  Painius  ^put'r there  10:04, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

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Mandarin (late imperial lingua franca) → Guanhua – Per WP:NATURALDIS. The current disambiguator is unwieldy. Srnec (talk) 23:05, 23 May 2018 (UTC)--Relisting. —usernamekiran(talk) 17:48, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

• oppose – the Chinese name "Guanhua" is not a common English-language name for this language, and is also ambiguous. Kanguole 23:47, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

How about Mandarin (court dialect)? —Srnec (talk) 02:57, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

"Court dialect" really only refers to the end of the period, when the Beijing-based variety of the royal court was dominant. (Though Ricci and his contemporaries talked about about the language of the law courts.) Kanguole 16:07, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

• "(late imperial lingua franca)" is not a properly constructed disambiguator. "Mandarian (court dialect)" is better. Perhaps "Standard Chinese during the Ming and Qing dynasties"? The article neglects to explain the origin and motivation of this dialect. North and South China were treated as two separate countries within the Mongol Empire, so language diverged. Marco Polo did not know China, but only Cathay (North China) and Manzi (South China). When the Ming drove the Mongols out and reunited China, there was a need to select a language for the court. The early Portuguese writers thought the mandarins spoke their own language. Calling this dialect "Mandarin" perpetuates this misunderstanding. It was a standardized dialect, like BBC English, but not a different language than the one spoken by the common people of North China. Nine Zulu queens (talk) 07:48, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
• Use "Mandarin (court dialect)" perhaps. Guanhua fails as a disambiguator by introducing another ambiguity. "Standard Chinese during ..." is a nonsensical anachronism, and not any kind of title anyone would ever look for.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  15:37, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Surely more readers know what language "Standard Chinese" is than know what language Mandarin is. Here is a scholarly article on Varo's dictionary. It switches back and forth between "Mandarin" and "Chinese" for no apparent reason. Nine Zulu queens (talk) 02:38, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

• Support a move from the current title and prefer Guanhua. Oppose anything with ""Standard Chinese" in it as misleading. —  AjaxSmack  02:34, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose Guānhuà is a Chinese word that translates directly to "Mandarin." Like Mandarin, the word most commonly refers to the modern language of North and Central China. It is not specific to the period discussed in this article. Nine Zulu queens (talk) 03:26, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
• If Mandarin/Guanhua are ambiguous and the current disambiguator is unsatisfactory, a WP:NDESC title along the lines of Mandarin as a late imperial lingua franca or Guanhua as a late imperial lingua franca could work. Or Late imperial Mandarin as a lingua franca, Late imperial Guanua as a lingua franca, etc.? Dekimasuよ! 01:49, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose (although probably it should be moved to Mandarin (late-imperial lingua franca) per MOS:HYPHEN). The current title seems to describe the topic accurately, which none of the other proposals do. This RM is a solution looking for a problem.  — Amakuru (talk) 21:20, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

  The problem is that (a) the word "imperial" does not generally work well on its own, since there have been many empires in history, and (b) the disambiguator is suspiciously long if this is indeed a notable topic (which I am not denying). Why (a)? Because we cannot just assume that readers know that Mandarin is Chinese, and the disambiguator itself should be unambiguous. Why (b)? Because it is doubtful that "late imperial lingua franca" is the shortest way to describe a distinct and well-defined historical linguistic variety. Certainly scholars have shorthands. "Court dialect" has been proposed. I would suggest "Middle Mandarin" is also acceptable. Srnec (talk) 23:23, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

  It's common for historians of China to group the Ming and Qing as the late imperial period. Certainly other empires had late periods too, but it's not necessary that disambiguators be unambiguous by themselves, just that the combination of title and disambiguator identify the topic. The trouble with "Middle Mandarin" and "Court dialect" is that the prestige dialect of the lingua franca shifted over this period (apparently during the 19th century), from the Nanjing area to Beijing. So "Court dialect" (a rare term anyway) is only appropriate for the final part of the period, while "Middle Mandarin" is usually attached to the earlier part. Kanguole 23:43, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

  Even after the court moved to Beijing, it apparently continued to use Nanjing dialect for some time. Both dialects are Mandarin, both in the terminology of the time and in modern usage. Nine Zulu queens (talk) 00:11, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

• Support a move but not to Guanhua. Difficult. See Mandarin Chinese for some of the ambiguities that calling this Guanhua would introduce. My guess is that the distinctions we're dealing with here are esoteric, so finding a common English name is problematical. More research and brainstorming needed. Andrewa (talk) 01:40, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
• Support. It seems to me that Guanhua is in common use in sources.[1][2] As such I see no reason not to use it.--Cúchullain ^t/c 15:14, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
• oppose although the current name is very unwieldy the proposed name is not a suitable one; our guidelines are that names should be in English whenever possible, and in this case there is an English term, "Mandarin". Mandarin can refer to more than one thing so it needs disambiguating. But the same is true of "Guanhua", for which the closest English is Mandarin. So Guanhua is unsuitable both as it is unnecessarily not in English, and as it is ambiguous.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 15:44, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Several alternatives have been proposed in this thread. Srnec (talk) 00:56, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose the proposed title per JohnBlackburne. Dekimasuよ! 17:01, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

A very confused article

Like all discussion of this subject, this article is very confused.

"Mandarin" refers to two entirely distinct languages. Similarly, Beijing Dialect also refers to two entirely distinct languages.

'Beijing Dialect' can refer to the speech of the common people of Beijing. This is a subdialect of Hebei Dialect. The 'common people' up to 1949 were principally members of the Hui minority. This speech contains huge numbers of words taken from Arabic, Persian, Turkic languages, Mongol and Manchu.

'Beijing Dialect' also refers to the Beijing version of Northern Mandarin, mostly as spoken by Han intellectuals.

'Mandarin' may refer to 'Southern Mandarin', the prestige language of Nanjing and China's official language until 1860. 'Mandarin' may also refer to 'Northern Mandarin', the ancestor of the language known as Mandarin Chinese today. Northern Mandarin did not originate in Northern China, or in any part of China. It had been the 'common speech' of countless peoples living outside of China, and was only brought to China when the Manchus invaded China in 1644.

The official Chinese explanation is that Mandarin originated in the Central Plains, then spread north and south. It's nothing but a fairy tale. Now one often reads "Common Speech is the lingua franca of the Han people." This is truly outrageous.

China's increasingly confused linguistic situation is due to that country's refusal to acknowledge the truth about the origins of its national language. It's not good to tell lies, but when you tell them to yourself you are in serious trouble.

"Beijing Dialect" is now such a shambles that even the official press admits that to hear good Mandarin you need to travel to Luanping, a town formerly outside of China where the inhabitants are all members of the Manchu minority.

I have spent decades studying Mandarin phonology, and the only possible explanation I could find for this mess was that this was a language which had come from outside China. From the time I began the study of Chinese in 1973 it was obvious that all Han Chinese were speaking Mandarin as a second language.

Chao Yuen Ren claims in his famous book «A grammar of spoken Chinese» to possess the 'sense of the native' in his understanding of Chinese phonology. Chao Yuen Ren was not a native speaker of Chinese, he was a native speaker of Tianjin Dialect!

Fifty years ago someone from Hongkong told me about this, but I thought it mere Cantonese chauvinism. Now I know that it is true. Mandarin Chinese did not originate in China!

The linguistic fraternity in China and throughout the world should be condemned for its inability to understand or admit the truth about the Chinese language. The Chinese government should be condemned for its "Great Han Chauvinism." Luo Shanlian (talk) 07:15, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 28 October 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus (non-admin closure). Jenks24 (talk) 02:24, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

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Mandarin (late imperial lingua franca) → Middle Mandarin – Seems WP:NATURAL, WP:COMMONNAME enough, and not using a very clunky, longstanding parenthetical disambiguator that doesn't seem necessary. Remsense聊 03:17, 28 October 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 06:23, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

• oppose – Middle Mandarin refers to the Mandarin of the Ming and early Qing, which is a subset of this topic. Kanguole 08:44, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

  But the opening sentence gives exactly that scope for the language variety. Remsense聊 12:42, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

  The point is that during the Qing dynasty the dialectal base of the court lingua franca shifted from the lower Yangtze area to the Beijing area, so for the later part of the period it was no longer Middle Mandarin. Kanguole 14:13, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

  Kanguole, hmm. I almost think a single disambiguator is better than the two ('late imperial' and 'lingua franca') now. Maybe Mandarin (court dialect)? — Remsense聊 16:06, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

  Two words shorter, but does it improve anything? As I said last time, "court dialect" really only refers to the end of the period, when the Beijing-based variety of the royal court was dominant. (Though Ricci and his contemporaries talked about about the language of the law courts throughout the country.) Kanguole 07:52, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

  I suppose my concern is concision for those just learning of this lect's existence, but it is quite tricky to achieve that arbitrary level, plus accuracy. Remsense聊 20:14, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.