Talk:Islam

Muslim demographics section is problematic

You have to define precisely whom you count as a Muslim. For example a recent poll from Iran said that less than 40% of Iranians consider themselves Muslims today, and yet the maps and figures in this article claim that islam is the religion of more than 90% of Iranians. The same can be said about other countries. Muslim demographics also there are two denomanatians in islam 1.sunni 2. shia articles totally ignore the statistics about atheists, agnostics, apostates, converts to christianity and non-believers of all sorts. They simply count everyone born within a traditionnally Muslim society as Muslim. To be fair, this isn't the way christianity figures are constructed. The numbers estimated for christianity are those of the estimated actual believers, not people born in Christian cultures. How do you plan to correct this bias ? Yorik18 (talk) 21:12, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Greetings,

You have to define precisely whom you count as a Muslim

We cannot, but it would be great if such definitions would be clarified in such statistics. However, it is rarely done. We can only work with what sources provide us.

The numbers estimated for christianity are those of the estimated actual believers, not people born in Christian cultures

There is a difference between Christianity and Islam in regards of adherence. A Christian is made by baptism and every person is born "sinful" (this is also why a lot of babies were baptized when born and babies unbaptized led to the Catholic limbo-theory). In Islam, a child born from Muslim parents are consdiered Muslims. It does not have to be a conscious choice, you probably do not even have to believe in it. There are some opinions which constitute [[[Apostasy in Islam|Apostasy]], but they are not clearly defined. For some, missing a prayer can lead to Apostasy (I think some Hanbalites hold this position), while others even interprted angels as merely abstract intellects and are still highly esteemed scholars of Islam (such as ibn Sina). Because of these reasons, Muslim and Christian identity are hardly comparable. VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 19:18, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

I'm glad someone else raised this matter, as I've raised a similar issue before on another Islamic related article. For example, in Gambia and Senegal, the Muslim population is hyped up. There is no disagreement that most people in these countries are majority Muslim, but the figures do not tally and their statistical data in regards to Muslim populations is not even reliable. It is simply based on guess work especially Gambia. As such, many reliable sources cite these unreliable government figures. However, organisations and other RS who work and do research in these countries would tell you that almost 100% of the Muslim population syncretise with African religion.Tamsier (talk) 11:43, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

I will profess I am not familiar with RSs on this topic. But it sounds like an issue in definition: those who practice Islam likely are a smaller subgroup within those traditionally considered "culturally" Muslim. Delineating between the two might be helpful. Jtrevor99 (talk) 19:54, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

It's true. The Ummuh, or collective of Muslims in the world, is greater than people we might consider as fully adderant Muslims. IE. attempting to perform all 5 pillars or 10 obligatory acts for most Shia groups.

nd then you have concepts of being born into a religious faith, those people would be included. The action of whether you are able to leave it. Similar to some Christian sects belief in Baptism being a permanent change that claims you to either their faith or Jesus Christ depict in that sects version of the bible.

There are multiple schools of Islam and cultures that have adopted Islam whether due to historical trade or conquest. It makes defining who and what is inside the group and outside the group difficult at times. RCSCott91 (talk) 20:03, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 May 2024

Dear Author, I respect your conditions and rules.I am also an author who writes religious, scientific text explanaition. When I am writting this leeter to you this is wednesday, May29, 2024. I request you to permite me to revise this texts and insert some more reliable sources.

yours carefully, yours sincerely, UnkownReader543 (talk) 04:56, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: this is not the right page to request additional user rights. You may reopen this request with the specific changes to be made and someone may add them for you, or if you have an account, you can wait until you are autoconfirmed and edit the page yourself. ABG (Talk/Report any mistakes here) 05:56, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Comments on Islam

1. Islam is not Abrahamic but independent Arabian religion founded by muhammad it is influenced and have elements of Judaism Zoroastrianism Christianity and arabian paganism. 2404:3100:140B:F41F:6BF8:C0CD:F09B:84A9 (talk) 12:33, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
2. It is mohammedanism because it was founded by muhammad every monotheistic religion is founded by a founder and known with it's name for example Zoroastrianism Baha'i babism many more and islam word it self means peace which submission word it will make every body muslim because all religions submit to God so it make nonsense muhammad itself was first muslim not adam 2404:3100:140B:F41F:6BF8:C0CD:F09B:84A9 (talk) 12:44, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
3. Islam came from arabian polytheism muhammad parents were polytheistic 2404:3100:140B:F41F:6BF8:C0CD:F09B:84A9 (talk) 12:46, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: Please use reliable sources to propose clear, specific changes to specific sections of the article. Jtrevor99 (talk) 19:22, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Ibadis and Zahiris

On the sections regarding Islamic schools of thought (madhdabs), it mentions the major Sunni and Shia schools of thought. However, I (and probably many others) would like it if Ibadis and Zahiris could be mentioned in this section. Ibadis are very numerous in Oman and have minority groups in Djerba, Tunisia, and Mzab, Algeria, and many more. It emerged in the First Fitna, being one of the oldest madhdabs in Islamic History. Zahiris are also very influential and many contemporary Islamic scholars recognize then. They are known to be strictly adherent to the Quran and Hadith, and they reject qiyas and contemporary ijma Habibullah Mohammad Khan Abdul-Siddiq Gondal Sameer (talk) 19:09, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

Seperated?

Why you think islam was seperated from arabian polytheism? Islam wasn't based on arabian polytheism, they are entirely different from theology and society 114.124.243.222 (talk) 23:19, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

“Separated from” does not mean “based upon”, “descended from” or “related to”. It means just what it says: separated from. Jtrevor99 (talk) 02:52, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 June 2024

1,24,000×50=6,200,000=6.2 million 1,24000×100=12,400,000=12.4 million 1,24,000×150=18,600,000=18.6 million Muslim Messagenger × Messagenger age 50,100,150= Total years Ek Messagenger ka phasla 100 year Gaps. 1 Messagenger ka jindegi lagbhag 100 year 124,000×(50×100)=620000000 =62 million 124000×(100×100)=1240000000 Cardinal: 1240000000 can be written as One billion, two hundred forty million. old Muslim Religion. 2409:40E6:7:6889:8CA6:5CFF:FEB0:3047 (talk) 00:59, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Jamedeus (talk) 01:26, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

Oldest islam According to Total Messenger 124,000 and Messenger lives year and minimum gaps between Messenger 100 years

Oldest islam According to Total Messenger 124,000 and Messenger lives year and minimum gaps between Messenger 100 years 1,24,000×50=6,200,000=6.2 million 1,24000×100=12,400,000=12.4 million 1,24,000×150=18,600,000=18.6 million Muslim Messagenger × Messagenger age 50,100,150= Total years Ek Messagenger ka phasla 100 year Gaps. 1 Messagenger ka jindegi lagbhag 100 year 124,000×(50×100)=620000000 =62 million 124000×(100×100)=1240000000 Cardinal: 1240000000 can be written as One billion, two hundred forty million.

old Muslim Religion. 2409:40E6:7:6889:8CA6:5CFF:FEB0:3047 (talk) 01:03, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

Total Messenger is not a reliable source. Jtrevor99 (talk) 01:17, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

The Population exceeded 2 Billion in 2023

Should be updated. Lastbattleofray (talk) 12:38, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Please update the whole article, not just the infobox. Importantly, you've deleted a reference that's in use later in the article, leaving the article with an undefined reference and conflicting information. The Infobox says that there are 2 billion adherents, and the prose says there are 1.9 billion. I've reverted your change to fix the referencing error, but when you take another run at it you'll see that there are many different sources that will need to be updated or changed. See also Muslim world#Demographics. -- Mikeblas (talk) 14:29, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Criticism

Should there be a couple sentences summarising Violence in the Quran and the POVs? without entering into the politics at all. Sorry if this is polemical but I do think it's due Kowal2701 (talk) 16:31, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Greetings,

Since the linked article seems to have various issues, I cannot recommand to write a summary of its keypoints here. I do think that the core of the message is adressed in the article already: "Other criticisms center on the treatment of individuals within modern Muslim-majority countries, including issues related to human rights, particularly in relation to the application of Islamic law", is a quote from the criticism section. Violent verses of the Quran and the question how to reconcile them as laws with human-rights, is adressed here. Since the article focuses on Islam as a whole and not just urgent or contemporary issues, I would not expand on it any further for now. VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 22:20, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Preparing to prayer

Salah 2601:445:700:2710:E874:473A:B3F2:B6E3 (talk) 13:41, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

This Article/Page is Discriminatory

This article does not respect the religion of Islam. It is discriminatory. Where is the respect for the Prophet Muhammad (SAW)? I see terrible remarks. Let a Muslim scholar or Group of educated Muslims make this page because it SUCKS! This is UNACCEPTABLE !!Jeepers12 (talk) 17:52, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Your suggestion is against WP:NPOV and WP:IMGCONTENT Vegan416 (talk) 08:27, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

And also against https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:The_Free_Encyclopedia Vegan416 (talk) 08:32, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Vandalism on line 27

I cannot correct it since the article is semi-protected, but right now the second paragraphs opens with the following text:

"78% muslim don't know Quran word meanings and don't speak arbi language .All muslim organisation is terrorist organisation .Muhammad was a writer and born as hindu and grow up mix hindu and jewish religion and made a false religion islam ,he killed his own uncle and own people whose expel him from own city mekka . invading none muslim land is proud in islam and making people forcefully muslim is legal and killing none muslim is legal , a false and saitanic religion created by false prophet Muhammad ."

This is obviously vandalism. Syollandre (talk) 12:13, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Indeed; it is recent vandalism and has been reverted by User:Nthep. --JBL (talk) 21:40, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Out of Scope last section.

Reading articles on religions and belief systems, such as Zoroastrianism, Atheism, Sikhism, Hinduism, Pandeism, Baháʼí Faith, all have their own criticism articles like Criticism of Zoroastrianism, Criticism of atheism, Criticism of Sikhism, Criticism of Hinduism, Criticism of pandeism, Criticism of the Baháʼí Faith respectively, and they do not contain a Criticism section, properly following WP:NOCRIT and their WP:Scope. So, for consistency purposes, it’s best to remove the meager Criticism section in this article. I am thinking of making this move.

If the question becomes, "Then how will the readers find critique articles?" we can simply relocate the links to the 'See also' section right below. Any readers can instantly click on it should they choose. StarkReport (talk) 08:57, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

The argument that "other stuff does not exist" is not accurate when considering articles on religions and belief systems. Other of these articles, such as those on Christianity and Judaism, do include a "Criticism" section. I believe that having a "Criticism" section is relevant for articles on major religions like Islam and Christianity, given their significant impact on the world. Criticism of their influence or belief systems is both relevant and frequently discussed. Durziil89 (talk) 09:48, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

@Durziil89, The guideline advises against isolating the "Criticism" section in a separate section, regardless of the religion's size or impact, and a dedicated critique article already exists.

"given their significant impact on the world" Actually, no Hinduism has considerably more of a impact and influence both in ancient and modern world than those two. Zoroastrianism also holds its own in terms of far-reaching influence. And Atheism is as relevant as ever and its significance will keep growing.

"Christianity and Judaism, do include a "Criticism" section" These should also be revisited for consistency. If anyone starts a new discussion on those articles, regarding the removal of their sections, my approach will be the same. StarkReport (talk) 10:04, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

I think there might be a misunderstanding. The criticism section should not be limited to just the Abrahamic religions. Other systems, such as atheism, Hinduism, and the Baha'i faith, also face criticism and have political and social impacts in various societies. There are numerous books, researchers, and viewpoints that address these criticisms. I suggest adding a paragraph that includes responses from Muslim scholars and researchers to these criticisms. Additionally, it could be valuable to include a paragraph on Islamophobia, as it has become a noticeable phenomenon in several societies recently. Durziil89 (talk) 12:23, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

@StarkReport What guideline? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:43, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

StarkReport, So why don't you start the same discussion in the Judaism and Christianity talk pages? Vegan416 (talk) 17:20, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Hello @Gråbergs Gråa Sång, Doesn't WP:NOCRIT generally advise us against having a "Criticism" section?

"In most cases separate sections devoted to criticism, controversies, or the like should be avoided in an article because these sections call undue attention to negative viewpoints."

As for belief systems:

"For topics about a particular point of view – such as philosophies (Idealism, Naturalism, Existentialism), political outlooks (Capitalism, Marxism), or religion (Islam, Christianity, Atheism) – it will usually be appropriate to have a "Criticism" section or "Criticism of ..." subarticle. "

Since we already have articles dedicated to critiques of religious and belief systems such as Islam, do we really need a skimpy section in their general articles? It seems incongruent and awkward.

"So why don't you start the same discussion in the Judaism and Christianity" @Vegan416, My dear, you are more than welcome to initiate those discussions, and I will support them. Simple. Editors are not idiots, thoughtlessly spamming the same argument across multiple articles simultaneously. Addressing this article now doesn’t preclude future actions elsewhere. One thing at a time. In my capacity, I did started a discussion on the Criticism of Christianity article for the removal of an out-of-scope section, and then removed it—same with an unnecessary section in the Criticism of the Bible. StarkReport (talk) 02:34, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Yep, I think it's appropriate to have that section here, the article(s) it summarizes are very substantial. One guideline (NOCRIT is an essay, but that doesn't make it useless) says "Sections of long articles should be spun off into their own articles, leaving summaries in their place." Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 05:40, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

StarkReport, I won't to do that because I don't support that view. As Graa Sang said this "policy of NOCRIT" is actually not a binding policy but rather a non-binding recommendation, and personally I feel that the reason given there (that people might be confused and think that the criticism is part of the religion itself) is unconvincing. Having said that, I wouldn't object to that recommendation if it is applied consistently. Which is why I think that if you want to raise this issue, you should raise it simultaneously in all relevant articles. Vegan416 (talk) 07:02, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't think this a one-size-fits-all situation, but that's me. If such a discussion is to be had, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Religion might be the place for it, with WP:APPNOTEs in other places. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:33, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Flow of page and leaning

The page flow, on the English page, is disorganized at times and the word choices in English disrupt comprehension when there are perfectly Halal English alternatives that would allow for better flow.

My question is, Has that been addressed before but it is simply met with rejection?

Also, it's very obvious the page leans in its explanation of Islam from the Modern Sunni point of view, Was that on purpose or something that can't be undone without risking future vandalism?

I'm asking because I wanted to put the time in to make the page more approachable for English speakers while maintaining Halal word usage. I just don't want to throw my time away only to find out that the flow of words currently on the page is preferred. RCSCott91 (talk) 04:47, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

These questions are far too vague to admit meaningful answers. You are welcome (though not required) to propose concrete edits here before implementing them, to see how other editors feel about them; this is probably a good idea in the case of large-scale changes. 100.36.106.199 (talk) 14:43, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 August 2024

"Islam has second-largest religious population after Christians" should be "Islam has *the* second-largest religious population after Christians". 2A02:1810:363D:6700:49EC:11AE:DFA:C30B (talk) 10:36, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

added definitive article *the* as described. RCSCott91 (talk) 12:15, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Who is a Muslim?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I know this is gonna sound like a silly question but I need some type of discussion to know that my understanding of Islam has been in confusion my whole life. Obviously, someone is a Muslim after making the Faith declaration (Shahadah) with proper witnesses.

1) But for example, if a child is born to two Muslims, is that child a Muslim?

2) Or even just to a Muslim Father?

3) What if like in the 1st question, that child right after birth is found and raised by non religious parents, would the child be Muslim?

I was under the assumption in the answers.

1) Always Muslim

2) Some schools may differ but usually Muslim

3) Always Muslim, every effort should have been made to place them with a Muslim family.

If you agree, disagree, have additional point to make, please add. If you have a source add it.

RCSCott91 (talk) 19:27, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

Consider asking at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Humanities. "This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Islam article." Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:54, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

discussion Al-Ghayb

The Islam page when referencing Allah's nature uses the below quoted sentence. Wiki has a page for Al-Ghayb describing the concept. Should we link that page in that sentence, include the proper word "Al Ghayb" thru some type of rewording or simply do nothing to give context to the sentence?

"God is seen as transcendent of creation and so is beyond comprehension."

RCSCott91 (talk) 18:13, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

It's Mohamedism not islam in English

islam came in 7th century so mohamedism will represant accurate as religion starting from political leader prophet muhammad and previous were messengers too but not muslims.Because with islam definition everybody would be follower of muslim they dont accept this so Mohamedism would be best. Aghvcgjmm (talk) 18:23, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Muslim is from an Arabic word meaning, "one who submits". The preferred term for Islam by both academia and by Muslims is the term Islam which comes from an Arabic word meaning "submission to God". That same root literally helps form the common greeting used by almost all Muslims regardless of language, "Salamalekum", meaning Peace be upon you.

"Mohamedism" although once common in English speaking countries, probably because of our tendency to put "ism" on any system or religion, has largely fallen out of favor and in many cases is considered offensive. It can still be used in some instances to refer to cultural systems of Muslims, but has no place in this page about Islam. Ultimately, I would stay away from the term as it is a exonym that is not embraced by the group is tried to describe.

All the above can be sourced from sources in the Islam page, oxford dictionary, and Online Etymology Dictionary.

If you disagree, please offer current sources that meet Wikipedia guidelines WP:RS with your rebuttal. RCSCott91 (talk) 18:58, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

WP:COMMONNAME. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:26, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

I knew there was a policy but couldn't remember the page name. Thank you. RCSCott91 (talk) 19:57, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm reminded of a discussion that wanted en-WP to spell Allah with 3 L. It didn't catch on: Talk:Islam/Archive_31#Allah's_(or_Alllah's)_L's. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 04:54, 26 August 2024 (UTC)