Talk:Hong Kong Junta

I've replaced the WP:redirect to the Dictatorial Government of the Philippines article which was currently in place here with this {{in creation}} article. I intend to add content here as I have time. Other interested editors are invited to contribute content and to make useful edits. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 10:13, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Question re tags

Re this diff, Chipmunkdavis, we have had a WP:edit conflict while the article is still in flux. I have checkpointed some unsaved changes offline and am working here from your version as of 16:54, June 7, 2020. In that version:

• I don't understand the request for clarification saying, "Not Europe or the United States". The meeting described took place in Singapore, as stated in thre article and on pp. 50-55 in the cited source. What needs to be further clarified?
• re the request for clarification saying, "Initially refused? What changed?" Aguinaldo was refused passage on one McCulloch voyage and accommodated on a later voyage. The McCulloch captain presumably had his instructions clarified in the Philippines between the two voyages. If you or someone else doesn't do it first, I'll look at some rewording to clarify that.
• re the request for clarification saying, "May 24 is not immediately after arriving on May 19", Aguinaldo made a verbal declaration in a speech on May 19. That's on page 358 of the Titherington source cited.
• re the request for clarification saying, "Then or at an unspecified later time?" Aguinaldo didn't say. That's also on page 358 of that Titherington source.

Could you please remove the tags which I've satisfied here? Thanks. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 18:40, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, it had already been a couple of hours since your latest edit, so I didn't expect it to conflict. Don't mind being overwritten with such minor edits.

• On Singapore, there's a slight disconnect per the previous paragraph as it seems unclear if there was just an excuse to get to Singapore or if he changed his mind about continuing.
• re McCulloch, that would be a useful clarification.
• Re May 19, I didn't know that. Need to add that into the more dedicated article.
• Re Aguilnaldo's statement, I think it's worth fleshing out that slightly if possible, as it reflects the transition plans of the Junta into effective government.

I've removed the tags as you seem to have the answers on hand. A question I've had reading this article is whether it's common to refer to "Biak-na-Bato" as a place? It's not something I can remember running across before. CMD (talk) 01:30, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Taking those points in order:

1. I'm a lousy wordsmith. Let me detail here what I'm trying to get across in that part of the article; perhaps you or another editor can make it clearer than I have.

Just ahead of the present heading reading, 'American involvement", it says: that Aguinaldo and party "secretly departed Hong Kong for Singapore on April 7, 1898 under assumed names, letting it be known that the destination was Europe and the United States." Up until reading the Bell source, I had thought that Aguinaldo's destination was Paris (I think I read that somewhere else). I now take it that his mention of those destinations might have been, along with the assumed names, part of a subterfuge. I'm not sure about that, and don't have any real info about what his plans might have been. Anyhow, in the bit you questioned, it says, "After meeting with with U.S. Consul E. Spencer Pratt in Singapore, Aguinaldo returned to Hong Kong." There, I was trying to indicate that, whatever his plans might have been before the meeting, Aguinaldo returned to HK after the meeting. There's a note there about confusion about what transpired in the meeting; perhaps there ought to be another note clarifying the disconnect between Aguinaldo's mention of other destinations and his return instead to HK, but I don't want to put more detail into that than I can cite sources to support (per WP:V, WP:NOR).

2. That appears in Emilio Aguinaldo#Dictatorial government and Battle of Alapan, the lead para of Dictatorial Government of the Philippines, Timeline of the Philippine–American War (24 may in the timeline). The Titherington cite is in First Philippine Republic, but the verbal declaration on May 19 isn't mentioned there.

3. I changed "Aguinaldo did depart Hong Kong aboard the McCulloch on May 17, 1898" to "The McCulloch did transport Aguinaldo with thirteen Junta members on a subsequent May 17 voyage". As I said, I'm a lousy wordsmith; improve as needed.

I'm even worse as a typist and proofreader than I am as a wordsmith so, even though I have proofed it and cleaned up a bunch of typos, there may be unrecognized typos in the above. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 11:53, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanations. Regarding 2., I can't find a mention of the verbal declaration on any of those articles, so we should probably add it to them. Regarding the other explanations and rewrites, I'll get back in more detail once I've had a chance to go through the relevant portions of all the sources myself. CMD (talk) 15:12, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by The Squirrel Conspiracy (talk) 02:42, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

• ... that Filipino revolutionaries exiled in Hong Kong declared themselves a government-in-exile, becoming the Hong Kong Junta, due to monetary disputes? Source: "The assemblage agreed to repudiate the Biak-na-Bato agreement...authorized Aguilnaldo to take charge of the money...represented the first action of the Hong Kong Junta...reins of provisional government were assumed" (page 37)
  • ALT1:... that money Spain provided to the Hong Kong Junta as part of a peace deal were used to buy weapons to fight Spain? Source: "preservation of the money he had received in accordance with the agreement...P50,000 for the shipment of arms to the Philippines" (pages 32 and 68)

• Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Republic XP-69
• Comment: Open to alternative wording to try and fit the article title into the hook (especially ALT1) while also providing some context to it.

Created by Wtmitchell (talk). Nominated by Chipmunkdavis (talk) at 13:27, 10 June 2020 (UTC).

• The article is long enough and new enough with no copyright violations. Both hooks are cited. Either hook is fine. SL93 (talk) 23:15, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Better source for a key cite

The article cites:

• Bell, Ronald Kenneth (April 1974). The Filipino Junta in Hong Kong, 1898-1903: history of a revolutionary organization (PDF) (Thesis). Naval Postgraduate School. (URL is wrong. Corrcted below.)
• Bell, Ronald Kenneth (April 1974). The Filipino Junta in Hong Kong, 1898-1903: history of a revolutionary organization (Thesis). Naval Postgraduate School.

However, I have just stumbled over a betetr online source fort this here

The problem is that the page numberings in those two sources are very different.

I may attempt to convert the cites in the article in order to allow and linking the better online source. I hope someone beats me to this. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 13:11, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

@Wtmitchell: I think one of those urls is wrong. CMD (talk) 16:19, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

You're right; thanks. I've corrected the error above. Apparently, I started to boldly make the change in the cite, changed my mind when I noticed the difference in page numbering, then copied the wikitext for the cite in which I had changed the URL to this announcement. Looking at my intended alternative source again I see that there are a lot of blank pages. However, the page numbering on pages with content seems consistent and there does not seem to be any content missing between those pages with printed content. If I don't see any other problems, I will probably redo the page numberings in the shortened footnotes to match the alternative source when I get the time and make the change. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 01:38, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

(added) Working on this, I see that the page number differences are between pagenos printed on pages and pagenos in the PDF. Further, I see some confusion about this in the pagenos in the article. I mention this now in case it confuses others looking at this. I intend to reconcile this. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 03:18, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Better source for a key cite

The article cites:

• Bell, Ronald Kenneth (April 1974). The Filipino Junta in Hong Kong, 1898-1903: history of a revolutionary organization (PDF) (Thesis). Naval Postgraduate School. (URL is wrong. Corrcted below.)
• Bell, Ronald Kenneth (April 1974). The Filipino Junta in Hong Kong, 1898-1903: history of a revolutionary organization (Thesis). Naval Postgraduate School.

However, I have just stumbled over a betetr online source fort this here

The problem is that the page numberings in those two sources are very different.

I may attempt to convert the cites in the article in order to allow and linking the better online source. I hope someone beats me to this. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 13:11, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

@Wtmitchell: I think one of those urls is wrong. CMD (talk) 16:19, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

You're right; thanks. I've corrected the error above. Apparently, I started to boldly make the change in the cite, changed my mind when I noticed the difference in page numbering, then copied the wikitext for the cite in which I had changed the URL to this announcement. Looking at my intended alternative source again I see that there are a lot of blank pages. However, the page numbering on pages with content seems consistent and there does not seem to be any content missing between those pages with printed content. If I don't see any other problems, I will probably redo the page numberings in the shortened footnotes to match the alternative source when I get the time and make the change. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 01:38, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

(added) I've done that and also fixed a couple of unrelated problems in the article.

Trimmed content from Philippine-American War

Per Talk, content from the subsection Aguinaldo's exile and return is being trimmed. The trimmed content is being placed here in case it needs to be reinserted somewhere in this article, with this reference to the pre-trimmed version.
<content start>
According to Aguinaldo, Pratt had communicated with Commodore George Dewey (commander of the Asiatic Squadron of the United States Navy) by telegram and passed assurances from Dewey to Aguinaldo that the United States would recognize the independence of the Philippines. Pratt reportedly stated that there was no necessity for entering into a written agreement because the word of the Admiral and of the United States Consul were equivalent to the official word of the United States. With these assurances, Aguinaldo returned to the Philippines.

According to Aguinaldo, Pratt had communicated with Commodore George Dewey (commander of the Asiatic Squadron of the United States Navy) by telegram and passed assurances from Dewey to Aguinaldo that the United States would recognize the independence of the Philippines. Pratt reportedly stated that there was no necessity for entering into a written agreement because the word of the Admiral and of the United States Consul were equivalent to the official word of the United States. With these assurances, Aguinaldo returned to the Philippines.

Pratt later contested Aguinaldo's account of these events and denied any "dealings of a political character" with the leader. Dewey denounced Aguinaldo's account as a falsehood, asserting that he had made no promises regarding the future:

From my observation of Aguinaldo and his advisers I decided that it would be unwise to co-operate with him or his adherents in an official manner. ... In short, my policy was to avoid any entangling alliance with the insurgents, while I appreciated that, pending the arrival of our troops, they might be of service.

Filipino historian Teodoro Agoncillo claimed that the Americans first approached Aguinaldo in Hong Kong and Singapore to persuade him to cooperate with Dewey in wresting power from the Spanish. He conceded that Dewey may not have promised Aguinaldo American recognition and Philippine independence (Dewey had no authority to make such promises). He asserted that Dewey and Aguinaldo had an informal alliance to fight Spain, that Dewey breached that alliance by making secret arrangements for a Spanish surrender to American forces, and that he later treated Aguinaldo badly. Agoncillo concluded that the American attitude towards Aguinaldo "... showed that they came to the Philippines not as a friend, but as an enemy masking as a friend."

Aguinaldo claimed that the Spanish never paid the agreed second and third installments.

Aguinaldo traveled from Singapore and arrived in Hong Kong on May 1, the day that Dewey's naval forces destroyed Rear-Admiral Patricio Montojo's Spanish Pacific Squadron at the Battle of Manila Bay. Aguinaldo departed Hong Kong aboard USRC McCulloch on May 17 and arrived in Cavite on May 19.
</content end>

References

Chino-Catane (talk) 04:37, 8 July 2024 (UTC)