Talk:German Air Force

Article Title

Both the Nazi Airforce and the current one are called Luftwaffe. Why are they not titled accordingly, eg. "Luftwaffe (Bundeswehr)"? --79.223.31.59 (talk) 18:01, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

The current organization and naming of the articles is really not ideal. I am not a native speaker of English and thus would not like to decide alone which lemma would be best, but I would like to have opinions of English native speakers. Currently, the German air force of 1935-1945 is located at "Luftwaffe", the current German air force (established 1956) at "German Air Force". Then, there is still an article named "Luftstreitkräfte" for the German air force before 1935, and "Air Force of the GDR National People's Army" for the air force of East Germany (1956-1990). Both "Luftwaffe" and "Luftstreitkräfte" are generic and don't mean anything else than "air force". Levimanthys (talk) 12:41, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

What should in any case be changed is the fact that by typing in "Luftwaffe" into the search field, the reader is automatically directed to the article on the Luftwaffe of 1935-45. That should at least be a disambiguation page, or direct to the article on the current Luftwaffe. Maybe we should sort the articles like this: "Luftwaffe (Bundeswehr)", "Luftwaffe (Wehrmacht)", "Luftstreitkräfte (German Empire)", "Air Force of the German Democratic Republic". Alternatively, one could translate the first three titles, for example: "German Air Force (Bundeswehr)", "German Air Force (Wehrmacht)", and "Imperial German Air Service". At least the article on the current German military is at "Bundeswehr", thus I am not sure whether "Luftwaffe" should be translated. Is there a strong connotation in English of the term "Luftwaffe" with the Nazi period, or is it also frequently used by English-speaking military for the current German Air Force? By the way, the French Air Force is at "French Air Force", and not at Armée de l'air". Opinions? Levimanthys (talk) 13:04, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Just found out that there is already a discussion the talk page of the article "Luftwaffe". Things seem to be very, very complicated in that matter. Levimanthys (talk) 13:52, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

I know this comment is late, but I really think that the article title should be German Air Force (Luftwaffe). Both are the very popular and official titles for the air force and mentioned in various English references/sources.Languid Scientist (talk) 17:55, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

whoever did the German Navy page had a good idea http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Navy#History

I suggest the title to be either Bundesluftwaffe (not official name in German, but widely used in English academic literature) or German Federal Air Force to avoid confusion as per discussions here [1].

--Deamonpen (talk) 03:41, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

Either name this article "Luftwaffe" for all periods, or name it "German Air Force" for all periods. Using "Luftwaffe" exclusively for the Nazi era is an insult to all who have served in the Luftwaffe since 1955. And I'm sure this naming was intended to be just that - an insult - by our so-called Anglo-Saxon "friends". --Reibeisen (talk) 19:39, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

History

The German navy has operated under different names. See

• Prussian Navy, 1701-1867
• Reichsflotte (Imperial Fleet), 1848–52
• Norddeutsche Bundesmarine (North German Federal Navy), 1867–71
• Imperial German Navy (" Kaiserliche Marine"), 1871-1919
• Reichsmarine, 1919–35
• Kriegsmarine, 1935–45
• German Mine Sweeping Administration, 1945 to 1956
• German Navy, since 1956
• Volksmarine the navy of East Germany, 1956–91"

I would be better if when Luftwaffe is searched there is a disambiguation page

the history secion of this page is only for the modern airforce to clear up nay possible conclusion perhaps a list (see above) should be added — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.167.69.4 (talk) 14:17, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

New discussion

the modern german air force is still called the luftwaffe in german, and luftwaffe just means "air force" in translation it is also a more common term in english. Therefore it would be appropriate for the title to be moved to Luftwaffe (Bundeswehr) and the WWII page to Luftwaffe (WWII) Kilo-echo-lima-victor-india-november (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:54, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

The common name for the German Air Force in English is "German Air Force" and if one uses Luftwaffe in English it relates to the second world war german organisation, unlikely to most English speakers to relate Luftwaffe to the modern organisation, just one of those things that happens in English. Also remember that Luftwaffe doesnt mean Air Force in English! This has been discussed many times and the current consensus is as it is now. MilborneOne (talk) 19:02, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

Note that the user had moved Luftwaffe to Luftwaffe (WWII) without discussion. I reverted the move, and requested indef move protection, which has been applied. It might be a good idea to do that here too, since it has been moved in the past without discussion also. Thanks. - BilCat (talk) 19:38, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

"Also remember that Luftwaffe doesnt mean Air Force in English!" So? How you name the Swiss Air Force? Right, Schweizer Luftwaffe, www.luftwaffe.ch. (country suffix .de for German Air Force) Btw, I agree with KIlo-echo-lima [...] it needs a more clearer distinction between the two. CplKat (talk) 02:23, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

err the Swiss Air Force is "Swiss Air Force" in English! so not an issue. MilborneOne (talk) 08:00, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

Based on the comments section observed on this page, it would appear as though the current English article naming conventions do not, in fact, enjoy consensus. Given that the current air force of Germany IS called the Luftwaffe by the German people themselves ... period ... the English-speaking page should be disambiguation, regardless of whether or not the Nazi era was internationally the most famous use of the word. --Chr.K. (talk) 22:21, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

It doesnt matter what they are called by the German people as this is English wikipedia and the common name in English for the current organisation is "German Air Force" per previous discussions. A quick google search would show how prevalent the term "German Air Force" is in English source, also the German Air Force has used the term and English versions of German sites like "http://www.spiegel.de" uses German Air Force. MilborneOne (talk) 13:40, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

New structure

Hey, Luftwaffe got some new designations concerning their commanding structure. The former Luftwaffenführungskommando is now called Kommando Einsatzverbände Luftwaffe, Luftwaffenamt is now called Kommando Unterstützungsverbände Luftwaffe. Maybe you can think of some good translations into English or just use the German names. --Filterkaffee (talk) 19:19, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Motto

I dont know if Team Luftwaffe is the real motto of the Luftwaffe. On the website appears Wir.Dienen.Deutschland, which sounds much more as a motto than the actual one. Or is it Immer im Einsatz as indicated here ? Can we change that? FraLiss (talk) 19:37, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

'Majority' of aircraft grounded

The article contained two passages claiming that the majority of the aircraft in the Luftwaffe were grounded, one featuring prominently in the header, with very little referencing. I have toned this down a bit. It is not unusual in this day and age for air forces to have high nominal numbers of aircraft, but maintain only a minority of these in a fully combat ready state. It seems odd to single out the Luftwaffe in this respect, and read a little like an attempt to disparage the Luftwaffe. If anyone takes issue with my edits of 02/07/15 then feel free to discuss it here. Thanks! MatthewHaywood (talk) 10:07, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Jever Air Base - not completely "closed"

Jever Air Base was removed from list and map of air bases with this edit. While it's correct that the areal is no longer used or designated as "air base", it is supposed to host the German Air Force Regiment (and other minor auxiliary units) per an official government source from May 2014 - the German-language source is available on de-Wiki. The GAFR is a ground-based defence unit, but part of the German Air Force branch. Either the "base" should be re-added with some disclaimers about its actual status and function, or the total number of air bases should be reduced to 11 (the entry was removed without reducing the total numbers in lead and main text). Knowing little about air force stuff, I'll leave it to the experts to decide the best course of action :). GermanJoe (talk) 03:19, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

You are right. Jever is no longer an air base, although the facilities are still used by the German Air Force. I adjusted the article accordingly. ÄDA - DÄP VA (talk) 09:17, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

Airbus A310 MRTT

Which unit operates the Airbus A310 MRTT? Gavbadger (talk) 12:53, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Unfortunately the relevant de-Wiki articles have no English equivalent, but de-Wiki claims that these units are part of the de:Flugbereitschaft des Bundesministeriums der Verteidigung (Federal Ministry of Defence Transport Wing, or MOD Transport Wing in the table), which itself is a part of de:Luftwaffentruppenkommando (Air Force Operational Forces Command, since 1 July 2015). The operational command rests with the European Air Transport Command. On de-Wiki all that info is sourced to the German Air Force website, but I haven't checked all details in-depth. Per de:Flugbereitschaft des Bundesministeriums der Verteidigung refueling units are stationed at Cologne Bonn Airport. Standard disclaimers: Wikipedia information - and I am not really an aircraft expert. GermanJoe (talk) 15:02, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

They are normally attributed to the "FBS BMVg" (refer for example the Germany database in http://www.scramble.nl and at http://globalairpowermedia.com/files/articles/flugbereitschaft.html The Flugbereitschaft des Bundesministeriums der Verteidigung http://www.luftwaffe.de/portal/a/luftwaffe/!ut/p/c4/04_SB8K8xLLM9MSSzPy8xBz9CP3I5EyrpHK9nHK9_KJ0vZKixLxivbSc9KRU_YJsR0UA_VKwPA!!/ or Special Air Mission Wing of the Federal Ministry of Defence. MilborneOne (talk) 20:15, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

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Rename to some form of "Luftwaffe", with appropriate disambiguation

Luftwaffe vs German Air Force is an inappropriate form of pseudo-disambiguation, to split the luftwaffe (correctly) by age. There is no reason at all why one should be translated to English from German (we either translate one, or preferably neither (as COMMONNAME supports "Luftwaffe" in English too)). They should both be "Luftwaffe", and at least the modern one should be disambiguated.

• I have no objection to Luftwaffe as a set index article, or to Luftwaffe (disambiguation) as one, with the WWII article taking the primary slot.
• I have no opinions on appropriate form for the disambiguator.

Andy Dingley (talk) 20:38, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

Oppose as per previous discussions based on common names in English, Luftwaffe is clearly used in English when discussing the wartime organisation but not the current German Air Force which is normally refered to as suprisingly "German Air Force". MilborneOne (talk) 19:05, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

Oppose Luftwaffe refers to the WWII entity, and even though today's German Air Force also uses the term Luftwaffe, in English it is known as German Air Force. noclador (talk) 20:25, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

Oppose This is the English language version of Wikipedia, and uses English in its naming conventions. "Luftwaffe" came in common usage in Newsreels, newspapers, etc during a specific time period, and is used directly in connection with that specific organization. That word was transported into English vocabulary for a specific purpose. The German Air Force does not have that same connotation in English. If Wikipedia were to choose to use local language names for the armed forces of other countries, expect titles to become "L'Armee de l'Air" instead of French Air Force, "Vzdušné síly Armády České republiky" for Czech Air Force, and "Tentera Udara Diraja Malaysia" for the Malaysian Air Force. Wikipedia would become useless for English speakers. Scr★pIron^IV 20:26, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

• Where are all these modern uses of "German Air Force"? The BBC News site mostly seems to use that term as a piece of real dumbing for WWII. Taking Flight as a decent source shows Luftwaffe still in general use 1974 and MRCA, 1987 Phantoms, 1990 1990, with 'Luftwaffe' for West and 'East German Air Force'. If "German Air Force" really is the most common English language term used, then I'm fine with that, but where is it? Is this a post-1990 use? A US use? Andy Dingley (talk) 11:08, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

FWIW NATO uses "German Air Force" - just one example of many https://www.airn.nato.int/archive/2017/german-deployable-air-command-and-control-augments-nato-in-baltics MilborneOne (talk) 11:36, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

Missing aircraft

Why are the H145M, A340 VIP, Global 500, A319, A321 no longer listed in this article? They are active aircraft of the Luftwaffe and be found on the Luftwaffe‘s homepage. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:E6:4BF1:7D00:E8A3:F5E0:CB1A:4DEA (talk) 16:06, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

I dont think anybody has added them yet. MilborneOne (talk) 16:11, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Well they were part of this article some months ago. The Luftwaffe recently ordered another A319 (as OPEN SKIES aircraft), an A321 as VIP aircraft. Both planes will be put into service 2018-2019. Also all 15 H145M are now officially part of the active fleet. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:E6:4BF1:7D00:15F8:11FD:3A19:7DDA (talk) 06:26, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Translation of Luftwaffe

Hi guys, actually, the literally translation of Luftwaffe into ’air weapon’ is wrong from my point of view. ’Waffe’ doesn't mean ’weapon’ as a single piece of warfare equipment but instead a force for warfare in the air – an Air Force. I suggest to change that. --VC10 (talk) 06:16, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

True, even if the primary meaning of Waffe is indeed weapon or (fire-)arm. Luftwaffe derives from the German term Waffengattung, meaning service branch (or "corps"), originally within the army, not the subdivision of the armed forces in army, navy, air force (=Teilstreitkraft/armed forces branch). The French equivalent is fr:Arme (corps militaire), in Italy it:Arma (forze armate). The term Waffengattung was generally used until 1945, in Eastern Germany until 1989, and in Austria it is still in use. In Germany it has been replaced by the term de:Truppengattung. So the (plural) term Waffengattungen comprises the infantry, artillery, engineers, old cavalry and modern tankers etc. The latter were called Panzerwaffe until 1945 and today are called Panzertruppe. In the Nazi Kriegsmarine, the term U-Boot-Waffe was used for the submarine service. The term Luftwaffe clearly derives from this intra-service nomenclature, simply taken out of its original sphere to name the air force as a new subdivision of the armed forces. While it is true that the litteral translation is air weapon or rather air arm (much like Fleet Air Arm), the meaning is rather air branch. For those of you who speak or understand French: there is a difference between armée and arme; within the armée de terre, the French Army, you can find the fr:Arme blindée et cavalerie, the Armoured Cavalry Arm. While the French named their air force armée de l'air, litterally Air Army (vs. Land Army), the Germans did not follow this approach (which would have forced them to call their Air Force Luftheer, Heer meaning Army); instead - still referring to the french terminology - they chose arm out of the intra-(army)-service level, producing Luftwaffe. Another good example is Italy: in the italian army you would find the infantry, called arma di fanteria, the (armoured) cavalry called arma di cavalleria, the artillery called arma di artiglieria, where arma is the exact equivalent of the term Waffengattung, from which Luftwaffe derives. Until 2000 the Italian military police and gendarmerie, the Carabinieri were part of the army, where they had the status of arma, like the infantry or the artillery. Then they took the Carabinieri out of the army and established them as their 4th military branch, after the army, the navy and the air force. But in doing so, they did non change the name Arma dei Carabinieri. While the carabinieri now are a military branch like the army or the air force, their official title still retains the term Arma, as if they still would be part of the army, like the artillery or signals or the engineers etc. The same exact thing happened with the Luftwaffe. --190.148.209.90 (talk) 17:27, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

Ranking of EU Air Forces

"(...) it is the third largest air force within the European Union, after the Italian Air Force and French Air Force." This is such a distorting and manipulating nonsense. Considering the structure of the German Armed Forces, and especially the Joint Support Service (Germany), the Joint Medical Service (Germany) and the Cyber- und Informationsraum, the personnel comparison between European Air Forces is completely useless, because other countries don't have or have different joint support services. If you want to compare these Air Forces, do it on the basis of fighter aircraft (and possibly European Air Forces and not the EU, with the objective of deliberately excluding the RAF). It also has to be noted, that the German Joint Support Organisations have army, navy and air force personnel; this means that air force personnel serving in the support organisations should be counted as additional air force personnel detached to these support organisations. --190.148.209.90 (talk) 17:27, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

I agree. I've removed it, but open of course to discussion if anyone disagrees. Mark83 (talk) 19:41, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

H145 training helicopter

The H145 has repeatedly been removed from training aircraft, in spite of there being a reliable source. Since it latest was FOX 52, please be so kind and explain why the source is not sufficient, even though it specifically mentions the German Air Force. --Erik Pirntke (talk) 23:38, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Read the edit summary they are on contract to provide training, but are not owned and or in the official inventory of the GAF (will noted like the Airbus A330 MRTT program) - FOX 52 ^talk! 00:20, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

Whether they are on contract or not should not make a difference in my opinion, since they are in the current inventory. The Airbus A330 MRTT differs in that it is not on contract solely for the GAF. Making a difference between if an aircraft is bought or on contract makes it unnecessarily confusing for the readers. --Erik Pirntke (talk) 12:28, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

Panavia Tornado

I am well aware, that the number of Tornados in the GAF inventory is 93 (85). But, since there are no numbers on how many of each variant the GAF has, and the table is set up in a way that doesn't allow grouping the two variants in one column, I think the way to go is to keep old information until there are newer sources. If there are sources that have exact variant numbers, feel free to add them because the current source does not specify those. --Erik Pirntke (talk) 01:00, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

Understood but now the information displayed is incorrect. I have read the Tornado 'SEAD" role performed by the ECR variant is based on 24 active aircraft but can't find the source anymore. 151.248.54.18 (talk) 09:24, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

Luftwaffe vs. German Air Force

The disclaimer at the very beginning of the article (or the structure itself) is misleading. German Air Force is still called "Luftwaffe" (as mentioned in the article). I don't see how it makes any sense to split an article about the German Air Force in three articles (instead of integrate everything in one article). But more importantly it shouldn't look like "Luftwaffe" was part of the "Wehrmacht" in WW2 and changed its name after the war to German Air Force. This is misleading. 2A02:908:1965:5FE0:D98B:845B:C09:1F7 (talk) 12:32, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

The hatnotes are about the article titles only. As you said, it is clarified in the article itself, which is sufficient. The existence of the separate articles is a separate issue, and better discussed separately. BilCat (talk) 22:24, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

And it has been: See #Article Title, #New discussion, and #Rename to some form of "Luftwaffe", with appropriate disambiguation above. Hope that helps explain it. BilCat (talk) 22:40, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

Oddly enough, 'German Air Force' (often abbreviated to GAF) was the official term generally used in Allied documents for the Nazi air force during the Second World War. 'Luftwaffe' was used more in speech. The distinction that the article attempts to draw is therefore not quite right. The differentiation between the Nazi air force and the post-war Federal Republic's is understandable, but the post-war air force was necessarily set up by officers with wartime experience, the German name for it has always been 'Luftwaffe' (as has the popular name in British and American speech) and the article itself uses 'Luftwaffe', except in the title and lead paragraph, because to do otherwise would be clunky and artificial. NATO's official use of 'German Air Force' merely continues wartime Allied (principally American) preference for an English-language term and does not particularly imply 'No connection with the previous war-criminal management.' Khamba Tendal (talk) 17:49, 13 May 2024 (UTC)