Talk:Estimates of sexual violence

Lifetime incidence of rape in USA women

The deleted line states a 14.8% lifetime incidence. This number comes from a justly disparaged CDC survey that counted affirmative answer to questions "When you were drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent, how many people have ever ...". I do not believe most readers would consider any woman who has ever had a glass of wine prior to sex a rape victim, nor do such questions address instances when both parties are under the influence drugs. 24.63.85.142 (talk) 02:50, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

We must go by what the references report, not our own interpretations of the CDC's methods. The CDC survey used the proper phrasing, and also they use different forms of the same question (like most of these types of surveys do) to alleviate the possibility of misunderstanding. The original survey can be found here, and you can see the wording of the question is not as you're interpreting it, unless you've only read the truncated version. Ongepotchket (talk) 17:29, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

I am unsure of what you mean by "proper phrasing". The fact of the matter is, the CDC study includes affirmative answers that describe acts that neither the federal government, nor any state nor city in the United States consider to be the crime of sexual assault. If you can contradict this with evidence, please do. Otherwise, this line should be removed. I don't mind the inclusion of this statistic in the body of the article so long as the extremely controversial questions it uses are referenced, but to include it in the introduction at all, especially without referencing its contentious nature (feel free to google the statistic and read many articles criticizing and dismissing it) would be disingenuous and irresponsible. 24.63.85.142 (talk) 13:13, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Can you list examples of reliable sources which invalidate the survey, the results, or call the questions controversial? That is, examples in places other than opinion columns? I am not seeing any objections except from right-wing blogs and opinion pieces by writers (most of them quoting Christina Hoff Summers). To call the survey contentious based on opinion of a select few seems inaccurate. It's criticized by conservative commentators, but in non-opinion sections of news publications I see little to no criticism. Under these circumstances, I would disagree with cited information being removed. Perhaps a section saying commentators on the right find the survey dubious? Ongepotchket (talk) 11:55, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

This is getting tiresome. Do I really have to use outside sources to explain how having sex after a glass of wine doesn't qualify as rape? The question fails to ask whether the partner was also drunk or high, so it assumes that only women can be raped due to inebriation, or that there exists some sort of "double" or "mutual" rape. If the woman is married to the partner she's sharing a bottle of wine with, do you still think that this can somehow be considered rape? It's nonsense, and that definition of rape/sexual assault is not consistent with legal definitions of sexual assault anywhere in the US, where the "study" (read: advocacy research) was conducted. It simply isn't remotely credible since it contradicts both the law's and the average person's definition of rape and/or sexual assault. If you would like to read dissenting opinions, just google "1 in 5 rape debunked" to read a slew of them by people from all ends of the political spectrum. Anyone who can think critically and isn't pushing a feminist, "rape culture" agenda can see those statistics are completely bogus. There is no way to "invalidate" the survey, as it simply makes up its own definitions of rape. Anyone can do that, but that doesn't mean anyone need agree with them, and ALL "validations" and "invalidations" will be done in opinion columns. That's how advocacy research works: you can't disprove it, per se, you can just disagree with its blatantly biased methods and resulting conclusions. It was also a non-representative sample with a low (<50%) response rate. You can't invalidate it, it's merely been widely discredited for failing to measure anything anyone actually cares about due to its slanted methodology. For a different take on things, the Bureau of Justice Statistics comes up with a rape incidence of something around 2% using sane methods that are in line with the average person's idea of sexual assault. See for yourself: (http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/vvcs00.pdf). I cannot grasp why you are being so stubborn and pedantic when your argument hasn't any legs to stand on. If I presented you a study that said 99% of people are murderers, but I defined murderers as people who'd ever uttered lines such as "I'll kill you" or "I hope he dies", would you accept it? There is never any need for a biased researcher to fudge numbers; all they need to do is use biased methods. Sheesh, have you done any academic research in your life? 24.63.85.142 (talk) 19:00, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Stop edit warring. Your claims of advocacy research and debunked surveys have yet to be proven. Many articles across WP cite this same exact survey. You are engaging in massive POV pushing and forcing your own original research into the article. You have yet to prove the CDC, DOJ, and NIJ are widely disparaged organizations, as you claim. If you want to criticize their findings with citations to back it up, add that information to the article. Removing the information already there is unnecessary, especially when your reasons for doing so have yet to be verified. If you remove reliably-sourced content again without consensus, either you can do an RfC, or I will. I'll also thank you to not accuse me of sockpuppetry or personally attack me again, on talk pages or in your edit summaries. Ongepotchket (talk) 02:02, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

If you would like some reliable data I have already linked to a study by the Bureau of Justice Statistics (http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/vvcs00.pdf), which is part of the DOJ. This puts the annual incidence of rape at 1 in 6000, not 1 in 6. If you assume women live to be 100 and that their chances of being raped are equal at all ages, that still only gets you to 1 in 60. One more time, the study I provided is by the Department of Justice. Please feel free to make a RfC or bring in arbitration; you are showing a complete unwillingness to engage with primary sources. Refusing to blindly accept anything that's been published is not pushing a POV. Addressing serious and obvious limitations in methodology, however, is standard practice in technical editing. You say that I haven't verified the fact that the conclusions of the CDC study haven't been debunked, but technical journals do not generally publish articles addressing other articles and "debunking" them, they merely publish their own conflicting results. If I'm not mistaken, Wikipedia's general process is to add information, revert the change if it is questioned by other editors, and THEN reach consensus. With that in mind, you should be waiting until you've convinced me prior to adding this questionable blurb back in. Just to show that this is in good faith, even if I am getting exhausted with your stubborn defense of dubious and widely maligned source, I will provide a list of mainstream media articles that paint the CDC's methods as misleading and/or worthless (starting with Time magazine):

http://time.com/2934500/1-in-5%E2%80%82campus-sexual-assault-statistic/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/cdc-study-on-sexual-violence-in-the-us-overstates-the-problem/2012/01/25/gIQAHRKPWQ_story.html http://thefederalist.com/2014/12/11/new-doj-data-on-sexual-assaults-college-students-are-actually-less-likely-to-be-victimized/ http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/no-1-in-5-women-have-not-been-raped-on-college-campuses/article/2551980 http://www.city-journal.org/2008/18_1_campus_rape.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.63.85.142 (talk) 06:17, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

P.S. Please let me know which other articles use this completely unreliable source. Within common academic standards, a response rate less than 50% is reason enough to discount the validity of studies. 24.63.85.142 (talk) 06:36, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

The first article is an opinion piece by Christina Hoff Sommers, an idealogue. The second is a link about IWD, a conservative Libertarian women's forum (so unbiased!) which refers to the same Christina Hoff Sommers article. I stopped reading there because neither of those links are even about the 2000 survey used in the citation, they are about totally different surveys done later in the decade. Regarding your edit warring on another article about rape statistics, I think it's hilarious that a report by the British government was removed by you for being "advocacy research", and for being too "biased", but an OP-ED by CHS is no problem at all. Wikipedia is not the place for pushing a conservative agenda, or any agenda. I see you've been reported, so I will just bide my time for now. Ongepotchket (talk) 02:28, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Those articles were offered only because you asked for them. For anyone accustomed to academic research, the methodology of the research speaks for itself. I also happen to be a socialist, not exactly someone pushing a conservative agenda. The source in the other article was simply complete garbage. It stated a quantitative estimate of something without so much as a reference explaining why the fabrication should be considered realistic. Very, very telling that you would whine that you need articles to "prove" poor methodology, and then whine that the provided articles aren't good enough. Those tactics really reveal how much valuable input you bring to a debate. 108.203.162.123 (talk) 01:35, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

I also had not noticed that the sentence preceding the removed line states that there have been small studies with representative samples. This study comes from TWO southern colleges, and had a 45% response rate. That is NOT a representative sample. 24.63.85.142 (talk) 07:14, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

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Move proposal

More commonly used is "Sexual violence statistics", propose moving. HudecEmil (talk) 21:00, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

No disagreement, proceeding with move HudecEmil (talk) 21:11, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

@HudecEmil: I have reverted your move because you haven't followed the formal Requested Moves process. Although you have mentioned this move on this article's Talk page, nobody else has discussed it with you. As there has been no meaningful discussion and due process has not been followed, I see this as an Undiscussed Move, so have reverted it. This article has been at the current title for many years and nobody has seen fit to object to it. Changing the name of this article turns this into a different topic. Estimates of [the prevalence of] sexual violence in the population are significantly different from the sexual violence statistics that are actually recorded by law enforcement, or in victims surveys. This is primarily due to the under reporting and under recording of sexual violence. The estimating process seeks to extrapolate the known statistics to account for known under-counting issues and arrive at a dark figure of crime not recorded in the statistics. So the name of the article is more precise if the word "Estimates" is used. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 01:24, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Sorry for not doing a move proposal according to Wikipedia:Requested moves/Controversial, my mistake. Agree there is indeed a difference between reported statistics and surveys, due to the underreporting/dark figure of crime of which the extend is difficult to know. In light of this, would you agree with a move to Sexual violence estimates and statistics? Alternative would be a separate page on Sexual violence statistics where the table of statistics would be moved to. I prefer "Sexual violence estimates" over "Estimates of sexual violence" due to concise. HudecEmil (talk) 05:11, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

@HudecEmil: Having two articles about what is essentially the same topic is likely to be considered a content fork by other editors, and both would be candidates for merging those articles, due to redundancy. I would prefer having a single comprehensive article about this topic. As to the title of this article, I think that needs further debate, and it probably needs to involve more editors than just you and me, alone. While a concise article title is a nice to have, concision is just one of five separate criteria that need to be considered for the title of an article. Naturalness, recognizability, consistency with other article titles and precision all need to be considered and there needs to be a balance achieved among all these criteria. If this article were about statistics, I would agree that the word "statistics" should go at the end of the title, to be consistent with the titles of other articles. However, as the article is about estimates, it should be named "Estimates of ... " to be consistent with other similarly named "Estimates of" articles. Therefore, I think the existing title strikes the right balance, for a title that includes the word "estimates". Consequently, I do not see an urgent need to change the title of this article.

However, before Wikipedia contemplates moving this article to a different title, I think it is worth considering what this article is about, and why it has been named the way it has. As I previously mentioned on your talk page, the section about sexual violence statistics, in the article about sexual violence, observes that "Sexual violence is ... widely underreported ...[and the] available statistics are unlikely to inform about the true scale of the problem." Whether one talks about estimates, or statistics, neither term really explains what is attempting to be quantified here, although "estimates" is probably a better term than "statistics". Above, I have already hinted that what this article is really trying to discuss is "Estimates of" the "prevalence of sexual violence" in a population. What I think the article's title is trying to explain is the prevalence of this type of crime in a population when it is known to be significantly under-reported to both judicial and social agencies. In many respects this topic requires an epidemiological approach, as might happen with any disease or medical condition in a population. It might be better to move this article to the title "Prevalence of sexual violence", which would be consistent with similar articles, including the prevalence of female genital mutilation, as a parallel example of a sexual violence related crime article. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 13:08, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Agree that prevalence estimates of sexual violence is main topic. I prefer the title "Sexual violence prevalence estimates", because when typing "sexual violence" in search box this page would show up in drop down. (Similarly rape statistics shows up when typing rape.) I will invite other editors to continue in this discussion by starting Requested moves. HudecEmil (talk) 07:36, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 1 September 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the page to the proposed title at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 06:24, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

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Estimates of sexual violence → Sexual violence prevalence estimates – Easier to find when searching in search box for "sexual violence". Also includes "prevalence" in title. HudecEmil (talk) 07:39, 1 September 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. FOARP (talk) 15:33, 9 September 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. — DaxServer (t·m·e·c) 20:18, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose: The main article is Sexual violence, so if that is what you search for that is what you will get. This article, Estimates of sexual violence, is a sub-article of that article and is linked from the Statistics section in that article. If one puts "sexual violence" into the search box, the main article is auto-populated as the first choice but Estimates of sexual violence appears as the second item in the search results, if one takes the trouble to actually search for the term. I fail to see why this article's name needs to be changed simply to make searching for it more convenient. That can be done by using redirects from the alternative names that can be used as search terms, instead. This already happens with the term "sexual violence statistics". For sexual violence, determining its prevalence is always going to be an estimate, because this crime is known to be significantly under-reported in populations and is one reason why this article is called Estimates of sexual violence, and not something like sexual violence statistics. Including both the words prevalence and estimates is overly verbose and pedantic. Also, I don't believe it is a good natural English title. If the intent is to move the article to discuss the prevalence of sexual violence, then the title should put the words Prevalence of first in the article title to be consistent with other articles about the "prevalence of" other conditions in a population. This title would also be a more concise title than the one proposed. However, the existing title is even more concise, as well as being more natural and consistent with other articles about "Estimates of" a given topic. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 10:08, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

• support per nom. Much more natural and intuitive

Kowal2701 (talk) 17:01, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

• oppose The new name is not intuitive and I can see the valid criticisms from Cameron Dewe. Jorahm (talk) 17:20, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Requesting editors to comment based on policy — DaxServer (t·m·e·c) 20:18, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.