Talk:Airbus

Relevance?

The intro has recently been changed to say...

Airbus SE is a Dutch multinational aerospace corporation. Airbus SE is a parent holding company with no production activity. Industrial activity is conducted through subsidiaries such as Airbus SAS and Airbus Canada, that design, manufacture and sell commercial aircraft and have separate defence and space and helicopter divisions.

Airbus's registered headquarters is in Leiden, Netherlands, but daily management is conducted from Toulouse, France. The 'SE' in its corporate name means it is a Europese Naamloze Vennootschap, registered with number KVK24288945 under Dutch Law in the Kamer van Koophandel.

As clearly established in the other paragraphs... this company has operations in countries across Europe. It doesn't belong to the Netherlands any more than it belongs to France or Germany. It's perhaps one of the best examples of a truly multinational company.

Same with saying the company is a "Europese Naamloze Vennootschap" -- but then piping the link to Societas Europaea.

All of Airbus's recent financial paperwork (for example: 2022 Annual Report) discusses "Airbus SE" and "Airbus" (the commercial aircraft manufacturer) -- but nowhere does it mention "Airbus SAS" or Airbus Canada.

Do we really need to list the company's Dutch registration number?

Please provide a compelling reason for these changes or it will be reverted back to its prior stable state. -- RickyCourtney (talk) 20:57, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Also, see the above (now archived) discussion Talk:Airbus/Archive 1#The Nationality of Airbus. This was a settled, stable decision to say "Airbus is a European multinational aerospace corporation." RickyCourtney (talk) 21:00, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

So after taking a deep dive... my understanding is at the 2017 Airbus Annual General Meeting, the company's shareholders approved a plan which changed the Company’s legal name to Airbus SE from Airbus Group SE, after in 2016 the company made the decision to merge the Group structure with the largest Division, Airbus Commercial Aircraft (Airbus SAS), effective January 2017.

Because of the complexities of business law, Airbus SAS may continue to legally exist, but it no longer functionally existed after January 2017. -- RickyCourtney (talk) 18:32, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Talk quote markup added and link to previous discussion altered to archive page by Mungo fraans ïttrë rumden (talk) 11:53, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

The article is completely wrong – Airbus SAS and Airbus SE are separate companies

The article here is completely wrong. It is mixing two different companies, Airbus SE and Airbus SAS, both related but independent, and as so this article should be divided in two, one for each company as they appear in other wikipedias. Other editors, when confronted with the primary legal sources that support the overwhelming evidence, keeps reverting them and displaying a exasperating ignorance of how the European Union Law and Commerce Law works.

First things first, Airbus SE is not an European company or more precisely, is only in the sense that the Netherlands are in Europe and so all Dutch companies can be called also European (same as British, Serbian, Swiss, Turkish or Russian companies, to list some extreme cases).

Secondly, press releases are not official no matter how much a company pushes them. The merger of two companies needs to be proposed, voted and approved in the Shareholders Meeting, and that has never occured; and the merger event needs to be inscribed and communicated in several registries where it hasn't appeared. Also, as a relevant finance operation, this should have been published in all stock market regulatory boards were the share is traded. Moreover, both Airbus SE and Airbus SAS keep today their registry as active companies in the Dutch KVK registry and French INSEE-Sirene registry.

The latest Airbus Annual Report, (referenced above to a wrong document, correct link is this one), mentions 23 times "Airbus SAS" and 7 times "Airbus Canada Limited Partnership", and in particular listes Airbus SAS as one of the four main subsidiaries of Airbus SE together with Airbus Helicopters SAS from France, Airbus Defence and Space SAU from Spain and Airbus Defence and Space GmbH from Germany. The annual report also listes Airbus SE as a Netherlander company and Airbus SAS as a French company.

Additionally there is a confusion between the company business organization, used only for business organization reporting activities (the three divisions Commercial-Defence-Helicopters) and the legal subsidiaries structure of companies, of a few hundred of child independent legal entities, and that only a simplified structure appears in Airbus SE annual report and that do not match the business organization. The main clear facts are:

• Airbus SE is a Dutch company founded on the 29th December 1998, registered on the 17th February 1999, as EADS NV only as a shell company to merger on 2000 with Aerospatiale from France and DASA from Germany, which disappeared in the process, and that afterward acquired all shares of Construcciones Aeronauticas SAU from the Spanish State (and that was not merged with EADS as DASA and Aerospatiale, and only renamed to EADS Construcciones Aeronauticas SAU).
  • Airbus SE is not legally authorized to be involved in any aerospace design, production, maintenance or training by any aviation authority. It is not listed in particular in either the European Aviation Safety Agency nor the Dutch Civil Aviation Authority as authorized to do any of it.
  • Airbus SE only has offices in the Netherlands and the niminum workforce required by regulations to perform its activities (three employees in payroll according to KVK) - it is a shell holding company with no industrial activity.
  • Airbus SE oficial incorporation articles and legal data is registered and open for consultation in the KVK, the Oficial Commerce Registry of the Kingdom of the Netherlands (direct link here, reports are not free by Dutch Law), registered as an active Dutch company based in Leiden, The Netherlands.
    • In particular, KVK data includes the following annotation: Op 28-05-2015 is de rechtsvorm van Airbus SE gewijzigd van Naamloze Vennootschap in Europese naamloze vennootschap (SE).
    • In particular, KVK states that the company activities are: Financiële holdings. Houden, coördineren en besturen van participaties of andere belangen., and not aerospace manufacturing activities.
  • Shares of the Dutch Airbus SE are primary listed in the French Paris Bourse and secondary in other stock markets of other countries.
• Airbus SAS is a French company incorporated in 2001 by transformation Airbus GIE and intitaly a partnership between EADS and BAE Systems. Commercial aircraft parts manufacturing activities of the partners where spun off to the 'Airbus Operations' companies and sold to Airbus SAS.
  • Airbus SAS is the type certificate holder and owner of the IP rights for most commercial Airbus aircraft (except A220 that is owned by Airbus Canada).
  • Airbus SAS is registered in the French Commerce Registry (INSEE-Sirene) as an active French company based in Blagnac, France.
  • Airbus SAS is also authorized by the European Aviation Agency as an aircraft Design Organization, Production Organization, Maintenance Part-145 Organization and Training Part-147 Organization (check diferentes official lists for each one at EASA site)
  • Airbus SAS is not listed in any market. ~95% of the shares are owned directly by Airbus SE and ~5% indirectly through Airbus Defence and Space SAU.
• There are more different Airbus companies in France, the Netherlands and many other countries, plus some other subsidiaries and joint-ventures that do not have Airbus in the name.

And then, the complete ignorance of European Law. The European Union is not a country or a federation like the US so there is not a 'European Citizenship' neither for persons nor legal entities. There are no European companies. Companies of European member states are able to operate and trade freely in the European Economic Space because they have the nationality of one of the member Nations, but they don't need to be a SE to do so, a regular plc. SA or AG company are able to operate exactly with the same liberties as SE and with similar rules. So, all companies need to be registered, pay taxes and operate under the rules of one of the nations of the EEC to do business in any of the countries, not necessarily the one where it is registered.

Euro Council Regulation 2157/2001 provides a framework for a new kind of corporation within the EU, that they named Societas Europeae, the first one with common rules through the union. As any other EU regulation, all EU Nations compromise to adopt them under the threat of being fined if they don't (and there are continuous cases of fines to EU Nations not doing it on time).This regulation has been transposed to National Law by all the 28 EU member states (and then revoked in the UK after Brexit, so all British SE companies became automatically ltd. or plc. companies again). When transponding EU Law, Nations are allowed to further regulate or adapt the regulations to the National Law peculiarities. This means there are 27 different types of SE companies (28 before Brexit), one for each EU member State. Under the Dutch law applicable to Airbus SE, the meaning of SE was changed to the local language so abbreviation SE means Europese Naamloze Vennootschap for companies incorporated as such in the Netherlands - other countries kept the name in Latin. Airbus SE is then officially an Europese Naamloze Vennootschap, and as such clearly appears in the Dutch Commerce Registry KVK. Also, Airbus SE current Articles of Association declares itself as an Europese naamloze vennooschap.

All this said and correct references provided, I'll revert back to my correct previous edition and encourage you to create a new one for Airbus SAS.

Next time you try to revert my editions, please provide better references. Spoiler: you can't. Felipealvarez (talk) 11:51, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

This isn't Spanish Wikipedia. We don't have to do things the way they do there. Our editors are different, our readership is different, and our rules our different. Please discuss your proposed changes, and try to get a consensus first. BilCat (talk) 20:50, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

@BilCat: Isn't that what User:Felipealvarez just did? I think he did give compelling arguments to his proposed introduction, so much so that I support it, minus the company registration number, which can be put elsewhere in the article. I don't think anything was settled in the previous discussion. That SE is translated into national law, usualy slightly different for each EU country, and is not a pan-European law which I get the impression of now, should be clarified. Ping to user:RickyCourtney.

As for separate articles, I'm not so sure about that. It should probably be just one, where the aircraft manufacturing and company structure is explained. --Mungo fraans ïttrë rumden (talk) 11:53, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

"Airbus Group" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Airbus Group has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 December 10 § Airbus Group until a consensus is reached. Jay 💬 07:52, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Ethiopian Airbus

The ethiopian flight is transporting cagor everyday .what is the most (cagor) is flying everday & i once saw the holy water i interested to know about them 197.229.6.211 (talk) 15:10, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Recognition

Airbus is not known because of the lack of promotion from there team it has to build competition with other airplane lines to get it's recognition 105.0.2.238 (talk) 08:08, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Tuyet 2405:4803:F557:7770:F837:986B:DB09:11F5 (talk) 15:39, 21 October 2024 (UTC)