The Lightness in All Things | Outlook's Editor Chinki Sinha in Conversation with Vikram Seth
Sit, drink your coffee here; your work can wait awhile.
You're twenty-six, and still have some of life ahead.
No need for wit; just talk vacuities, and I'll
Reciprocate in kind, or laugh at you instead.
The world is too opaque, distressing and profound.
This twenty minutes' rendezvous will make my day:
To sit here in the sun, with grackles all around,
Staring with beady eyes, and you two feet away.
- Sit by Vikram Seth
We both laughed. We drank coffee. I am not twenty-six. But there is a lot of time ahead. Outside, the world continued being profound and distressing. A red book glowed in the lamplight. It is poet Vikram Seth’s translation of the Hanuman Chalisa that’s recently been published by Speaking Tiger Publications.
After some point, the poet picked up the mango and smelled it.
“Ripe,” he announced.
There was the implied sense of smell and touch and taste of the Digha Malda in the notebook and in the camera that recorded the interview.
He had jokingly said the entry fee would be five Digha Malda mangoes. He had spent some years in Patna in Bihar long ago and had first recited a part of his translation of the Hanuman Chalisa almost a decade ago at the first edition of the Patna Literature Festival.
“To steel yourself against mangoes showed a degree of iciness that was almost inhuman,” Seth had written in his novel A Suitable Boy.
Mangoes arrived. Strangers from Bihar sent them. They know the longing for that taste of those mangoes from home.
Seth is a wanderer accumulating material for future nostalgias. That’s what he said in one his books. Mangoes are nostalgia.
We sat on little stools surrounded by hundreds of books about thousands of people and places and emotions and animals and birds.
We spoke about translating the most beloved poem of Indians, the rising intolerance and how Seth started writing.
"If I am such a beneficiary of translations, who am I to hug my translations close to myself?”
That’s what Seth said.
He had first translated the Hanuman Chalisa for his now 90-year-old aunt and at her insistence, he agreed to publish it a decade later.
“I don't share the vision to misuse it—a great, wonderful, sacred text—to do unkind, cruel, arrogant things because Hanuman was not an arrogant person; he did it in the service of someone else,” he said.
There was a lot more.
But there is always another time for it.
In the meantime, the green of the mangoes alongside the red of the book stood out.
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#VikramSeth #HanumanChalisa #Book
You're twenty-six, and still have some of life ahead.
No need for wit; just talk vacuities, and I'll
Reciprocate in kind, or laugh at you instead.
The world is too opaque, distressing and profound.
This twenty minutes' rendezvous will make my day:
To sit here in the sun, with grackles all around,
Staring with beady eyes, and you two feet away.
- Sit by Vikram Seth
We both laughed. We drank coffee. I am not twenty-six. But there is a lot of time ahead. Outside, the world continued being profound and distressing. A red book glowed in the lamplight. It is poet Vikram Seth’s translation of the Hanuman Chalisa that’s recently been published by Speaking Tiger Publications.
After some point, the poet picked up the mango and smelled it.
“Ripe,” he announced.
There was the implied sense of smell and touch and taste of the Digha Malda in the notebook and in the camera that recorded the interview.
He had jokingly said the entry fee would be five Digha Malda mangoes. He had spent some years in Patna in Bihar long ago and had first recited a part of his translation of the Hanuman Chalisa almost a decade ago at the first edition of the Patna Literature Festival.
“To steel yourself against mangoes showed a degree of iciness that was almost inhuman,” Seth had written in his novel A Suitable Boy.
Mangoes arrived. Strangers from Bihar sent them. They know the longing for that taste of those mangoes from home.
Seth is a wanderer accumulating material for future nostalgias. That’s what he said in one his books. Mangoes are nostalgia.
We sat on little stools surrounded by hundreds of books about thousands of people and places and emotions and animals and birds.
We spoke about translating the most beloved poem of Indians, the rising intolerance and how Seth started writing.
"If I am such a beneficiary of translations, who am I to hug my translations close to myself?”
That’s what Seth said.
He had first translated the Hanuman Chalisa for his now 90-year-old aunt and at her insistence, he agreed to publish it a decade later.
“I don't share the vision to misuse it—a great, wonderful, sacred text—to do unkind, cruel, arrogant things because Hanuman was not an arrogant person; he did it in the service of someone else,” he said.
There was a lot more.
But there is always another time for it.
In the meantime, the green of the mangoes alongside the red of the book stood out.
Follow us:
Website: https://www.outlookindia.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Outlookindia
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/outlookindia/
X: https://twitter.com/Outlookindia
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Dailymotion: https://www.dailymotion.com/outlookindia
#VikramSeth #HanumanChalisa #Book
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NewsTranscript
00:00Hi, we are with Vikram Seth and he just came out with the translation of Shri Hanuman Chalisa
00:27and we just wanted to have a conversation with him about writing
00:32and obviously translating this big poem which we all know
00:37and we all know one or two lines or maybe the whole of it and also the craft of it
00:42and his favorite poets and everything else. His love for flowers and his love for many many things you know.
00:49So, Vikram ji, you know you designed the cover in the sense that you wrote in your hand.
00:57So, I just wanted to ask like how did you choose to firstly translate this?
01:02It was 10 years ago and you did it for your aunt and also like why did you choose this particular color, this shade of red?
01:09Two very very different questions but let me just say that as far as translating was concerned,
01:17I did it partly for my aunt who lives on the ground floor here.
01:21She is 90 years old and she recites Hanuman Chalisa twice before she goes to sleep.
01:26She is, most evenings if I wasn't talking to you, I'd be going downstairs talking to her and spending a happy evening.
01:33She is a wonderful conversationalist and even if we aren't talking, we just remain quiet.
01:38We listen to some old film songs or we listen to some classical music or something like that.
01:44Anyway, so, Usha mami, I did the translation for her in the first instance.
01:49But having done it and shown it to her, my mother and I were going to the Patna Literary Festival
01:55and I thought that I'll test it out on a few people.
01:572013, I was there.
01:59That's right, Chinki. It's the only time I've actually read the poem in one of its earlier avatars, you can call it.
02:05Exactly.
02:06And…
02:07So, I read five chapters and then its translation.
02:11So, I was basically trying to get the pleasure of Hanuman Chalisa into a kind of English version which maintained the rhyme in the meter of the thing.
02:36So, that was my main object.
02:39Then I kept it for about ten years, occasionally I'd polish one chopai or maybe a doha or something.
02:44And then Usha mami said to me, why don't you share it with people?
02:47Yeah.
02:48I said, well, I mean, look, my translation compared to Tulsidas's poem, it's a joke.
02:51Yeah.
02:52She said, but at least it's a window.
02:54You know, many people can't read Hindi.
02:57Certainly, maybe they can't understand Avadi.
02:59Yeah, yeah.
03:00So, at least give them your take on it.
03:04And then after that they can decide whether they like it or not, that's a different question at least.
03:08And the second thing I thought of was I myself have been a great beneficiary of translation.
03:13Yes.
03:14If I had not read a wonderful translation of Pushkin's Eugene Onegin, the great novel in verse, I wouldn't have written The Golden Gate, my first novel.
03:25I wouldn't have become a writer, I'd have remained an economist, which is what I was studying.
03:29Yes.
03:30And so, if I am such a beneficiary of translation, who am I to just hug my translations close to myself?
03:38Yeah.
03:39Also, I've translated three Chinese poets.
03:40There I was not embarrassed to put it out.
03:42Yeah.
03:43Maybe there was one other thing about the Hanuman Chalisa, I thought, look, I don't want people to think ki ye…
03:48Udhar chale gaye.
03:49Udhar chale gaye, Hindutva ka bhakt ban gaye.
03:52No, this is our poem.
03:54Exactly.
03:55It's as close to us as to these people.
03:58And the introduction I say very clearly, this is, I am not trying to make any big political point, but I hope that these poems and these rituals that we have are not misused by people.
04:09Exactly.
04:10To hit other people on the head.
04:11Yeah.
04:12You actually have a line in there.
04:13I do, I do, I do.
04:14In your intro where you talk about the willful, this thing.
04:16Karun, parun usse?
04:17Haan, pariye na please.
04:18Aur ek doha jo aapka favourite hai, kabhi aap, pachpan mein aap parte ho.
04:22Wahi do hai toh, do hai toh sirf teen hai.
04:24Haan, wahi.
04:25Ek toh last mein hai.
04:26Jo teen, aapka section hai forty, forty-three.
04:29Chali sa toh chali chaupai hai.
04:32Haan, haan.
04:33Churuvaat mein do do hai.
04:34Haan.
04:35Aur aakhir mein.
04:36Aakhir mein ek do hai.
04:37Ek do hai.
04:38Woh paunat na hai.
04:39Nahi toh hum doko toh itna pata nahi, humko toh ek hi line yaad hai.
04:40Kaun sa?
04:41Bhoot ki saaj nigat nahi aave, Mahavir jam naam sunaave.
04:42Kyon nahi?
04:43Horror, because horror film ke sabh mein, you know, you feel like.
04:44Sahi hai.
04:45Aur ussi toh aap hai, sankat kate mite, sabh pira.
04:48Haan.
04:50Bhoot ki saaj ka bahut acha hai.
04:51Woh bahut acha hai.
04:52And I think, no, bhoot ever came.
04:53Aur bachche bahut pasan karte hai, bhoot ki saaj nigat nahi aave.
04:54Kyon ki unko horror dekhna hota hai, bhoot ki kahaniya sunne.
04:55Woh koi bol deta tha ki yeh wala pad loge toh bhoot nahi aayega.
04:56Haan.
04:57So that was my fascination.
04:58So if you.
04:59Isne chudel, dayan ka nahi hai, lekin bhoot ki saaj toh hai.
05:00Aun sab umbrella category mein.
05:01Umbrella category.
05:02I think.
05:03Sab usse, sambalit kar dete ussi mein.
05:04Toh mein, aakhir mein, Bhaskar humare ek kirdaar hai, a suitable boy mein, Bhaskar.
05:119 saal, 10 saal ki umr mein, unhe mathematics ka bada shauk hai, lekin ek aur shauk, Ram
05:19Leena mein bhaag lene ke bhi bade shaukeen the, toh woh Warner Sena mein the aur unhe
05:24bahut pasand aata tha.
05:25Hmm.
05:26Hmm.
05:28But later, he realized to what uses this is being put.
05:37Exactly.
05:38And in his 50s, he fights against this intolerance that has come about as a result of.
05:42This whole.
05:43Of this whole.
05:44Changing gears and.
05:45Changing the view of things.
05:46I dedicate this translation to Bhaskar, who learned the poem before he was 5, but who
05:52spent his 50s fighting the chauvinism and intolerance to which this and other such well-beloved
06:00religious texts and rituals have been put.
06:03Nothing could be further from the humanity and inclusivity of the best of Hinduism than
06:09the self-aggrandizement and willful cruelty of those who use the religion in which, in
06:14the lottery of life, they happen to be born, in order to attack or demean others.
06:20May the Hanuman Chalisa continue to spread joy, expand imagination, and give strength
06:26and solace to its many past and future readers.
06:29It's a beautiful, this lottery of life.
06:32Hai hi.
06:33Bahut achha hai.
06:34Aur aapka agar, like you know, so religious poem, it's a genre in itself.
06:39And you are very meticulous when you talk about this one plus one, that whole rhyme
06:43thing, the iambic pentameter, all kinds of, I don't even know the technicalities of it.
06:47Technical theory mein sunane se koi khas faida nahi, lekin mere liye bahut zaruri hai.
06:52Aur isme agar yeh nahi hota, toh gadhiyo hi samajhiye.
06:55Aur jo padhiyo hai, usse gadhiyo mein, uske jo kubzuriti, uska jo saundarya hai.
07:00Aur jaadu ek tarah se gayab ho jata hai.
07:04Aur ek cheez yeh tha ki aapko, your first encounter with Hanuman Chalisa, wo kaise wa?
07:09Ek toh aapka hai ki you took inspiration from your character Bhaskar, toh wo toh aapki
07:14book mein tha, Bhaskar ki ek journey hai, Bhaskar ne Hanuman Chalisa mein wo paat ke
07:19daar nibhaya.
07:20Aapke ke daaro se parechit hone ke liye, jo unki diljaspi hai, jo wo padhte hai, jo
07:25wo sunte hai, waqela.
07:26Lekin Hanuman Chalisa toh yahaan mujhda rehta hai.
07:29Toh bachchan mein aap padhte the, sunte the?
07:31Padhte nahi the, sunte the.
07:32Sunte the?
07:33Har koi, haan.
07:34Kahi na kahi.
07:35Haan, matla toh uss back kya lag raha tha?
07:37Har aadmi ka ek utan.
07:38Kuch khaas nahi uss waqt.
07:39Kuch waqt, uss waqt nahi.
07:45Aur hum aise yeh bhi nahi kahe sakte hain ki, ki dekhen hain, aapne yahaan Hanuman ji
07:52ki koi tasfeer ya moorti nahi dekhi hain.
07:55Lekin ismein jo ek tarah se, wazan hai, tukh hai, sangeet hai ismein.
08:04Even the cover actually.
08:06Accha cover toh aapko bahut hi pasand hai.
08:07Bahut hi pasand hai.
08:08Mujhe bhi.
08:09Asal mein.
08:10The shade of red.
08:11Hanuman ji ka jo Patnaka station pe Mahaveer Mandir hai, usmein wo moorti mein, yeh hi
08:16laal rang ke Hanuman ji hai, unka yeh golden, wo hai.
08:19Aur wo toh sindoor lagate the na, unko.
08:21Sorry, India major.
08:22Aur unko ladkiya nahi chhuti hain kyuki wo brahmachari ji the.
08:25But they're very beautifully written and very, you know, if you can.
08:29Brahmachari toh hai, lekin Pawan Sut ka Sut bhi tha.
08:32Lekin wo toh alag baat hoi.
08:33Toh yeh aapko kaise laga ki, isko itna simple aur itna striking.
08:36Matlab yeh colour aur yeh.
08:37Pura courage mujhe nahi milna chahiye.
08:40Beni behen Aradhana ne bhi ismein kaafi, unka kaafi ismein bhaag tha aur publishers, designers
08:47wahan bhi.
08:48Haan, yeh tha ki unhone kaha ki aap zara yeh.
08:52Likhiye.
08:53Haan, khud likh lijiye.
08:54Toh maine yeh, kya kehte hain, calligraph kiya tha aur isi ko unhone istamal kiya hai.
08:59And that is the thing that you translated for your mommy.
09:03Haan, mommy ke liye toh maine, kya kehte hain, Hindi mein aur English mein maine aise likha.
09:10Pura Hanuman yahan se leke, pata nahi aakhir tak.
09:16Haan, aapne dohe ke baane mein kaha.
09:18Toh yahan hai teen dohe.
09:20Shri Guru Charan Saroj Raj.
09:22Woh toh har koi jaanta.
09:24Bhai, jab te ki kya zaroorat hai.
09:26Ek toh aapko padha chahiye.
09:28Aapka favourite roh ho.
09:29Mera favourite.
09:33Like something that you always return to or.
09:41Main toh shuruaat se hi karta rehta hu na.
09:44Jaise ki kuch aaye toh isi tarah se.
09:46Yeh kehna bohot mushkil hai ki.
09:48Baachit mein nikal aayega kisi tarah jo.
09:50Aur ek cheez tha kisi you.
09:52I mean obviously you have been a writer and a poet.
09:54And this poetry.
09:56What is poetry to you as a poet?
09:58And how is, like this is also a poem.
10:01This is somebody else's.
10:03Poetry, poet se keh rahe hain ki what is poetry to you.
10:05Murgi se keh rahe hain ki what is.
10:07Yeh murgasya kya hai tumhare mein.
10:11Jaise ki yeh bohot purani cheez hai.
10:13Unko uthana, unko translate karna.
10:15Woh ek aur kavita hai.
10:17Aapki apni.
10:19So a poet translating another poet.
10:21How does that like.
10:23I think it's kind of necessary.
10:27For prose translation can give you the meaning.
10:31But I think a poet deserves to be translated by a poet.
10:37Even if I can get 10% of the beauty of it.
10:41That's good enough in a sense.
10:43At least something is conveyed.
10:46For me as I said I did it as a private act for pleasure.
10:50I do lots of things which I don't publish.
10:52And in fact this room is probably littered.
10:56With manuscripts which I thought not good enough to publish.
10:59Publishing se kya fayada hoga.
11:01All this sort of stuff.
11:03You did it for yourself.
11:04I did it for myself and then my aunt.
11:06And my publisher said let's share it a bit.
11:09It's a beautiful thing to share also.
11:11Especially in today's situation.
11:13Especially in today's situation.
11:17Kuch toh rahat mili ki at least you know.
11:19One month ago.
11:21Dikhayi apni ungli.
11:23Kahan hai aapka voting?
11:25Maine toh kiya hi nahi.
11:27Maine toh kiya hi nahi aati aapko kya?
11:29Maine aana chahiye.
11:31Maine patna mein tha.
11:33Maine Kashmir mein tha.
11:35Maine geography ke atak gaye.
11:37Maine Kashmir mein jaake.
11:39Maine story karne gaya.
11:41Maine socha ki aap ghar pe.
11:43Maine aam kha rahi hai.
11:45Aam toh aapke liye laaya.
11:47Deegha ke malda.
11:49Yeh toh ek sharth tha.
11:51Yeh toh ek sharth tha.
11:53Yeh toh ek sharth tha.
11:55Chorch hai aas mein.
11:57Haan. Halkasa I think kachcha hai.
11:59Nahi.
12:01Yeh pakhawa hai.
12:03Woh tabbe wala kachcha hai.
12:05Woh peti hai dekh do din ke baad hi.
12:07Woh peti hai dekh do din ke baad hi.
12:09You were in Deegha.
12:11You were in Deegha.
12:13Deegha mein woh ek..
12:15Deegha mein woh ek..
12:17Khurji hospital.
12:19Khurji hospital mein toh Radna ki mere bhi choti behen ki peidaayi shoy the.
12:21Khurji hospital mein toh Radna ki mere bhi choti behen ki peidaayi shoy the.
12:23Hum toh Algin Nursing Hall Calcutta ke product hai.
12:25Hum toh Algin Nursing Hall Calcutta ke product hai.
12:27But you spent a lot of time in Patna no?
12:29But you spent a lot of time in Patna no?
12:31Ek tarah se Brampur jo hai.
12:33Sootable boy ka joh shahar hai.
12:35Sootable boy ka joh shahar hai.
12:37Yeh Patna pe hi aadharat hai.
12:39Uske baad Patna gaye ki nahi?
12:41Gaye hai.
12:43Gol ghar bhi chadey.
12:45Bataganj bhi chadey.
12:47Hum nahi chadey aaj tak Gol ghar.
12:49Hum nahi chadey aaj tak Gol ghar.
12:51Drone se leh ke waha aapko latka do.
12:53Air drop kar do.
12:55But it changed abhi.
12:57Agli baar mai kaunga agar aapne mujhe
12:59Photo nahi dikha selfie.
13:01Gol ghar.
13:03I am sure Romana can recreate that Gol ghar.
13:05Photoshop mein. Aaj kal toh kuch bhi ho jata hai.
13:07Nahi.
13:09Itne buddhu toh nahi hai.
13:11VFS dekhi hai. Kal ki film ka trailer usme sab toh waise hi hai.
13:13Aur ek aur cheez thi ki
13:15You know you were training to be an economist.
13:17You studied philosophy uske pehle.
13:19How did this transition?
13:21Usne toh panra saal guzar gaye.
13:23Ya.
13:25Gawa diye. Keh sakte hai.
13:27Nahi gawa hi nahi.
13:29Bada different profession hai.
13:31Economics.
13:33So how did that happen?
13:35Were you into reading from childhood?
13:37I loved poetry. But I never thought
13:39There again. Pushkin.
13:41Because I had put a whole lot of
13:43work into
13:45feeding my Chinese
13:47I had lived in China for 2 years.
13:49Chinese village data into
13:51a computer system
13:53which was time sharing at Stanford in California
13:55Finally in the morning
13:57I woke up
13:59I got out of this building
14:01because time sharing was cheap at night.
14:03And I said there's got to be some sort of life beyond
14:05data entry.
14:07So then I went to the Stanford
14:09bookshop and I was just wandering around
14:11I wandered into the poetry section
14:13and I picked up this book by Pushkin
14:15and I stood there in the bookshop
14:17reading for 3 or 4 hours.
14:19It was so enchanting. It was a translation.
14:21But it was a wonderful translation
14:23of Pushkin's Yevgeny Onegin.
14:25And then I thought okay
14:27this is what I'm going to write.
14:29I put my dissertation, economics dissertation aside
14:31and I wrote about California
14:33in the same
14:37stanzaic form
14:39I wrote that poem
14:41The Golden Gate.
14:43Not just a poem but also a story
14:45so I kind of learned how to write a novel.
14:47I learned how to create characters.
14:49I learned how to tell a story.
14:51So then I was able to come back home to India
14:53and write a suitable book.
14:55And your first book was Mappings.
14:57So how did that happen?
14:59Were you studying poetry at the time?
15:01I think I read somewhere that you went to
15:03this poetry department
15:05or there was a professor
15:07who you had these chats
15:09every week.
15:11And he saw a lot of promise
15:13and then you self-published
15:15the first one, Mappings.
15:17So what was Mappings all about?
15:19I think
15:21when I went to
15:23Stanford
15:25I was in the economics department.
15:27So it was quite difficult to do courses
15:29in other departments, especially in English.
15:31And if it conflicted
15:33with your macroeconomics
15:35or something like that
15:37then it would be difficult
15:39to follow up.
15:41So I managed to get
15:43into the English department
15:45and I thought maybe one of them
15:47would teach me at a time
15:49suitable
15:51to them and to me as well.
15:53Maybe in the lunch hours sometime.
15:55Or explain or talk to me about poetry.
15:57And
15:59there were two people
16:01who were sharing an office
16:03and the person who was closer to the door
16:05was a man called Tim Steele.
16:07A beautiful poet. I was lucky.
16:09I won't name the other poet
16:11who was further in.
16:13And so we met at lunch and he taught me
16:15in a way how one can write
16:17about one's self
16:19and about one's own times
16:21but using forms
16:23and rhyme and meter that have been used
16:25throughout the history
16:27of poetry.
16:29And you ever thought that economics also
16:31helped you because economics teaches you
16:33the economy of words and poetry is also
16:35about compression sometimes.
16:37I understand your point.
16:39But the answer is not at all.
16:41I mean
16:43the economy of words
16:45has nothing to do with
16:47economics sadly.
16:49Economics, I'll tell you how it
16:51economics is actually
16:53not a very
16:55economical science
16:57in terms of its own exposition of itself.
16:59It kifayati nahi hai.
17:01It tells you about the
17:03system of economics.
17:05So
17:09it helped me not in my poetry
17:11but in my novels.
17:13Because it taught me
17:15that the world is not only about
17:17love and
17:19emotions and death and so on
17:21but also about the real world.
17:23About money and
17:25farming and
17:27credit and
17:29the destruction of people's
17:31livelihoods and the
17:33making of new forms of technology.
17:35And so in A Suitable Boy there's a lot about
17:37that because for example
17:39a family can be totally destroyed
17:41if you have to withdraw your
17:43son from the university because you don't have enough
17:45money or you don't have enough to eat
17:47in certain cases. All this
17:49sort of stuff goes into it. Or for example
17:51take the
17:53patronage of
17:55the arts and music.
17:57Now when the zamindars lost their zamindari
17:59everything went.
18:01The patronage also went and had it not been for
18:03All India Radio and a few other
18:05festivals then our Bharatiya Shastriya
18:07Sangeet might have disappeared.
18:09So economics is
18:11mixed up with all this.
18:13But mainly it's human. A novel
18:15is not a dissertation.
18:17So it's only that economics
18:19and politics enters into it and maybe
18:21gives it a kind of background and richness.
18:23But without
18:25understanding it.
18:27I think my novels at least
18:29would be a bit thinner.
18:31And also one other thing I wanted to ask you
18:33about your favorite poets. You know when you were
18:35reading poetry
18:37what attracted you to them
18:39specifically and what was
18:41that story telling?
18:43Like you said Larkin.
18:45Larkin I guess because he
18:47shared those qualities that Tim Steele has
18:49which is talking about your present self
18:51and your present times but
18:53using form. Diamond meter and
18:55being able to remember
18:57the poems.
19:03There's a lovely Larkin poem
19:05about the trees are coming
19:07into leaf like something almost being
19:09said and so on. He talks about it.
19:11But then there's another Larkin poem about
19:13they fuck you up your mom and dad. They may not
19:15mean to but they do. They fill you
19:17with the faults they had and add some extra just for
19:19you and so on and it continues
19:21like that. So it's very direct
19:23or it can be very lyrical. But
19:25it's rhymed, it's meters and I can remember it
19:27and I can bring it
19:29to heart and to mind at times
19:31when I need the
19:33pleasure or the
19:35solace or the amusement
19:37of poetry.
19:39Just companionship sometimes. The companionship
19:41of poetry. And in
19:43translating this for instance
19:45how did you like you know
19:47this is also religious you know so were you
19:49my one question was were you scared
19:51of publishing it once because a lot of people also
19:53don't want to touch. But remember I didn't
19:55when I was translating it. Yeah not then
19:57but later. I didn't. I published
19:59it ten years after actually
20:01having got a first draft of it. Exactly.
20:03The one that you heard me read in Patna.
20:05In Patna Literature Festival. So
20:07no I do things for my own
20:09pleasure. The publishing is a secondary consideration.
20:11Yeah. Though
20:13obviously in the case of novels it's my bread and butter.
20:15But I
20:17wouldn't publish something that I didn't think
20:19was okay. No no
20:21not in the sense that
20:23you know because we have such a strange
20:25kind of times that we are living in.
20:27What you are saying is intolerant times. Yeah intolerant
20:29times and maybe somebody who is touching the religious
20:31text. Yeah. And you know there is this whole
20:33mob situation where you know
20:35people will say things like oh how did you do
20:37it? Why did you do it? Or
20:39Well the paragraphs I wrote by way of introduction.
20:41Yeah. I
20:43wanted to make sure that people understood.
20:45Yeah. That you know
20:47I love the work.
20:49I am honored to translate the work. Yeah.
20:51I want to share it with people. Yeah.
20:53But I don't share that vision. Yeah.
20:55That people have which
20:57misuses. Exactly.
20:59A great, a wonderful,
21:01a sacred text
21:03to do unkind,
21:05cruel,
21:07ghamandi kind of
21:09arrogance kind of things.
21:11Because Hanuman was not an arrogant person.
21:13No not at all. He did it in the seva of someone else.
21:15And another idea
21:17also. So let me put it this way. I think that
21:19I wrote
21:21the introduction I noticed in
21:23November of last year.
21:25And I would have published it before
21:27or after the elections. Yeah. It wouldn't have
21:29mattered. But I chose that actually
21:31I want to publish it on
21:33Chetpurna. Yeah.
21:35Hanuman Jayanti. I decided not to
21:37do it because I thought
21:39it will just enter this whole. Exactly.
21:41Yeh chunao ke chakkar
21:43jayega. So I decided not to do that.
21:45And then after that, after the
21:47elections were over, I thought
21:49I'll publish it. But I haven't changed
21:51a word of the introduction. It would have been the same before
21:53if he had gone chaar so paar
21:55I would have published it exactly the same. Exactly
21:57the same. Absolutely. No question.
21:59And another thing
22:01I wanted to also ask you that you
22:03are also, I mean you,
22:05I mean we came to your house and
22:07all kinds of books and all kinds of pieces.
22:09Yeh toh bufaza hai. Like yeh hai,
22:11emotion hai, love hai, war hai, everything is filed
22:13like very differently. So how does that
22:15you know, is that
22:17like your way of writing?
22:19No, no, it's just that
22:21there's so many bits of paper floating
22:23around that I don't, when
22:25my inspiration is on me,
22:27I don't want to have to
22:29spend half an hour looking for something.
22:31Exactly. That's the problem.
22:33Otherwise you can't file emotions,
22:35cats,
22:37birds, animals,
22:39journalists, aap toh journalists ke neeche baithi hui hai.
22:41Exactly, that's what I was thinking,
22:43yeh serendipity hai. Yeh shubh hai ya shubh?
22:45Pata hai bhi, business bhi hai.
22:47Journalism has become business now. Aur business ke paas dekhe
22:49cats baithi hui hai. See, yeah.
22:51And there's animals
22:53and birds and trees and everything over there.
22:55So yeah, so it's kind of
22:57interesting. This is another kind of map.
22:59It's a map. Yes.
23:01Reminding me of mappings.
23:03Dekhe wahan cricket, wahan
23:05pulmela aur wahan urdu.
23:07Aur yahan tribals.
23:09And in fact, when I was looking at this, I also
23:11got reminded here because indigenous
23:13belief systems and monkey god. Indeed.
23:15Absolutely. You know, this
23:17animistic religion.
23:19Why are we so fond of Ganesh ji?
23:21Why are we so fond of Hanuman ji?
23:23I think Ganesh ji also because he went through like
23:25slight, you know,
23:27tragic situation.
23:29Woh toh hua hi.
23:31He is also
23:33part of the natural world.
23:35In fact, I was also going to ask you. See, over the years,
23:37you know, when we were first
23:39acquainted with these gods, whether we believed
23:41in them or not believed in them, that's another story.
23:43Mythology hai, history toh hai bhi nahi.
23:45But, yeh na cute gods
23:47hote the. Jaise ki Hanuman ji cute se.
23:49You can have an
23:51affection. You have to say like Ganesh ji
23:53was this laddu khane wale cute. Exactly.
23:55Aur unka wahan bhi hai. Chuha tha.
23:57Yaad hai aur woh laddu-laddu khate the toh
23:59you should think ki kitne cute hai aur pachche jaise the.
24:01Ab thore din ke baad,
24:03you know, this whole iconography also has changed.
24:05All these weaponized gods. Now, you look
24:07at Ganesh ji with like 12 hands
24:09holding weapons. Krishna Bhagwan
24:11jo hum basuri bajate dekhte the, woh
24:13Sudarshan Chakra leke hai. Hanuman ji
24:15this angry Hanuman, you know, you see the
24:17posters everywhere. Ram ji
24:19teer, woh hum Ram ji ko aise dekhte the.
24:21Toh, does it, like
24:23how do you look at that? Yeh toh hai na,
24:25vikataroop. Exactly. Paralank
24:27jarawa. Lekin, sukshroop hi tha.
24:29Ab sukshroop ko bilkul bhool gaye.
24:31I think.
24:33Yeh hi toh. I think that
24:35historically
24:37you might say that
24:39there is some reason behind that
24:41because the, not the cult
24:43of Hanuman ji, but the sort of
24:45greater interest in him
24:47came around 1000
24:49with the Muslim conquest, maybe people
24:51felt they needed to find a
24:53warrior god, someone who protected
24:55themselves against, you know, whatever it was.
24:57Hinduism throughout, Buddhism,
24:59Islam, conquered large parts
25:01of Northern India, etc, etc.
25:03But eventually became a kind of
25:05someone whom you
25:07looked at more with shraddha
25:09and aastha.
25:11Yeh gada leke
25:13ya kisi ko
25:15sar pe patak dalo. Haan, matlab gada the
25:17dard nahi lagta tha, yeh nahi lagta tha humko hi maanenge.
25:19Yeh hi toh.
25:21Aur khair, toh I hope that
25:23I mean, hope ki kya baat hai?
25:25No one can look into the future.
25:27But
25:29I feel that
25:31works have their own
25:33life. This is also
25:35eternal in the sense. Gods come and go.
25:37Humans come and go. Humans come and go.
25:39Another one I wanted to ask,
25:41are you going to translate anything else in terms
25:43of religious,
25:45the things that already exist?
25:47I haven't thought of it.
25:49Because you talked
25:51about this reclaiming thing also.
25:53See reclaiming, I'm
25:55reclaiming it, but remember I did it for a private
25:57purpose. Incidentally, you could say
25:59it's being reclaimed. But it was never lost
26:01to me.
26:03So
26:05I
26:07translated Chinese poetry,
26:09not particularly.
26:11Of the three Chinese poets I translated,
26:13one you could say was a Buddhist,
26:15one was a Taoist,
26:17and one was a Confucian.
26:19Dufu, you say more as
26:21Confucian. Wang Wei is more
26:23Buddhist, and Li Bai or
26:25Li Bo is, you would say,
26:27a Taoist kind of thing.
26:29But then again, is it religious poetry? It's not
26:31religious poetry as such.
26:33I
26:35love many Christian hymns.
26:37In fact, I live
26:39when I'm in England in the house of a religious poet,
26:41George Herbert.
26:43In A Suitable
26:45Boy, there are many Muslim characters, and
26:47there you can find
26:49Marsyas, for example, Marsyas,
26:51during the period of
26:53Sos in Muharram.
26:55So there are different things.
26:57We're human. Why should we
26:59let go?
27:01We shouldn't lose the green,
27:03and we shouldn't lose the orange, and we shouldn't
27:05lose anything. Or red.
27:07Or purple.
27:09Whatever you want to eat,
27:11whatever you want to ask
27:13someone,
27:15or even if you don't want to ask,
27:17why do you interfere?
27:19So, you know,
27:21poets can save
27:23people, I don't know. Poetry can
27:25save. Translations can save.
27:27I mean, they saved,
27:29you said, Pushkin. Even we
27:31have been able to read so much because of
27:33translations, and
27:35get to know the world, you know.
27:37People are
27:39amazingly good, but they're also amazingly
27:41stupid, and also amazingly cruel,
27:43and bad. What can one do?
27:45I mean, like, understand the world
27:47as best you can. Spend a little time
27:49here.
27:51Do your work. Eat your mangoes.
27:53And about flowers, my last question.
27:55Suffer, and then suffer.
27:57Flowers. Flowers.
27:59Yeah, you love flowers. You always give
28:01all these flowers. I go to her house,
28:03and she's like, flowers in bathroom.
28:05She will always be like this.
28:07And then, you have
28:09all these flowers, you preserve them.
28:11Just like, you know,
28:13why? Favourite flowers.
28:15Mangoes, you know.
28:17See, here, mogra, bela, etc.
28:19Yes, we always take mogra with us.
28:21In this,
28:23Kolkata, perhaps,
28:25the fragrance of Patna.
28:27Beli's flower used to come.
28:29You put mango in this.
28:31My mother, or Matari,
28:33used to put it
28:35in her bangles.
28:37Because you always carry this.
28:39Very distinct smell.
28:41And after all,
28:43kairi,
28:45comes from mango flowers.
28:49Thank you for this.
28:51Yeah, no, no, it's our,
28:53you know.
28:55No, and this too,
28:57I put it on Facebook yesterday,
28:59and then suddenly my faith in the world.
29:01You don't get this?
29:03No, it came from Patna.
29:05Jitendra Kumar ji sent it by train.
29:07So, you said that
29:09for admission in your house.
29:11Is this a visa?
29:13Yes, you need a visa for five days.
29:15Then I said, what will we do now?
29:17So, I said, if you don't give entry in the house,
29:19you won't get a story.
29:21Then I posted on Facebook.
29:23Exactly.
29:25And a lot of people helped me on Facebook.
29:27I said, let me try it.
29:29So, I posted, and a lot of people said,
29:31you know, I am sorry, someone left.
29:33So, Jitendra Kumar ji,
29:35he is a translator.
29:37He is a translator,
29:39and he had met me with Dhirendra Kumar Jha,
29:41who used to work in Open Magazine,
29:43a senior journalist,
29:45and who actually has worked a lot on Ayodhya.
29:47So, there are a lot of these connections.
29:49He said, my wife is going,
29:51she has a frozen shoulder.
29:53But if I send you,
29:55you can pick her up from her office in the afternoon.
29:57So, I said, no, no, why will she pick her up from the train?
29:59She has a heavy arm.
30:01So, I said, we will send someone
30:03from the train station.
30:05And then another guy called
30:07Afsar, I haven't
30:09ever met him, by the way.
30:11It's in my phone somewhere.
30:13He messaged me, that I am couriering you,
30:15but I couldn't do it yesterday.
30:17So, that box will come tomorrow.
30:19Then, so many people sent mangoes.
30:21So, you will also get the pleasure of eating.
30:23I kept five for myself.
30:25Have you kept it for Afsar?
30:27Afsar will come tomorrow.
30:29So, I thought, if
30:31The frozen shoulder
30:33Bijoya.
30:35Thank you very much.
30:37And Jitender ji, who saw it,
30:39called and immediately
30:41And Afsar, I also want to thank you.
30:43Thank you so much.
30:45What a pleasure.
30:47Good fun.
30:49And fun in the sense of
30:51I was going to ask you about your
30:53favorite show, Dexter.