Bravo! Thank you for your persistence on this topic.
I understand that it’s the nature of academia (and possibly also the nature of denial?), and that it is better to have more and more evidence, but part of me also rolls my eyes at your opponents in this debate. We’re not talking about marginal benefits of one formula brand vs another, we’re talking a Gutenberg level revolution in how we think and relate to the world and each other - and yet still some people play dumb and think it can’t possibly be a big deal. Thank you for having the patience to continue engaging the holdouts!
this argument—trying to convince people of the toxicity of smartphones + social media + constant internet access—reminds me most of when i was younger and trying to help some of my friends get over drug addiction.
you can almost see the brains squirming in any and every direction to avoid facing the truth!
I'm just grateful for 2 things that mattered in my life. 1. My boys (born in 1995 and 1998) never really got into social media. 2. I was able to do without and stay home with them 24/7 so I never felt guilty about saying no.
Same for me as a dad. My kids born 97 and 98, never saw social media as a thing and was very protective about their personal life. The where in to playing online games of course, bu they involved me, and we even played together. But I having a new family now, with a teen step daughter, and she's struggling, with Snap and Tik-Tok as a main factor, so the problem is indeed there. I was born 63 so long before mobile phones or internet... I have to say it was better, sorry!
I realize you didn't say this was your situation and maybe it isn't but what you say prompts the question of what's the tradeoff between minimizing social media and kids not having unsupervised time.
I wish I knew. I honestly don't. I knew you weren't talking about me, I just see a pattern in this area with kids. As a teenager before the rise of social media, I had a rough time, even as someone that didn't get picked on. I can't imagine the pressure these girls have now.
Software and smartphones are designed to be addictive -- the goal, as I understand it, is to increase usage. I've been meaning to fully read, "Hooked: How to Build Habit-Forming Products." This concept is slightly terrifying and based on psychology. Sadly, there wasn't foresight to see the negative consequences that this type of product development would have.
Those people tend to be like some of my family members. Both parents work full-time, are really tired when they get home, and feel guilty saying no. My two year old niece had some form of entertainment in her face by the time she was 2 years old. It's how they went to dinners, gatherings, and now how they entertain their children. It's probably really hard to solve this problem because when all the kids have it, how do we say no?
I think mental health providers on the frontlines would probably have a great deal to weigh in on this topic. The major downside is that anecdotal evidence is widely dismissed.
The book "Dopamine Nation" by Dr. Anna Lembke (a practicing psychiatrist) weighs in heavily on the correlation between social media and poor mental health. She would find absolutely nothing about this substack post surprising other than the fact that we're only just now waking up to the major issues at stake here.
I agree, I really want to see a compendium of qualitative takes from frontline mental health providers, so we can get a finer-grained understanding of what's going on.
This is a good idea. We are trying to compile as much research as possible — qualitative and quantitative. If you find any qualitative studies from mental health providers, please add them to our google doc. That would be of huge help
Summer camp seems like it could be less of an uphill battle than getting an entire school to go device-free. If it proves effective then the private sector can expand the program quickly in response to parent demand.
Plenty of people condemn Zuck. Condemning Zuck hasn't changed much. If we have a better understanding of the mechanism of harm, that may suggest other possible solutions beyond generic condemnation.
I think all research could be improved by considering the experiences and insights of practitioners. Some researchers do this via open review of study design, analysis and conclusions.
Its easier to accept the popular rebuttal from most of the media that this is all just conspiracy theory and get back to one's own personal life and it's challenges than to take a deep and serious look at the issues slowly eroding society. The meme of boiling frogs is most apt to what's been going on because it started out slow and light and once that first generation that was slightly dumbed down had kids those pushing this in public education increased the intensity with each successive generation. The ONLY reason they were exposed was because if covids forcing remote learning. This was a major miscalculation by those pushing it all from the dumbing down and sexual perversion of kids to the controlled demolition of the economy. We can thank covid for providing parents a look at what is actually going on at the schools.
At my kids' public school system, yes indeed the school district was promoting social media use by the kids. In around 2012 they actively recruited their own middle and high school students to subscribe to their new twitter page so they could get to 1,000 followers. And a brochure for parents they still use gives a green light designation to twitter instagram and facebook for social media platforms. And in 2017 there were at least 3 bomb threats made by young middle school students via twitter. And yet they still have that brochure available in the front office.
The word phrase "Social media' appears no where in the post. Since you don't seem to be aware of this, not everything that happens on the internet is social media. The various systems like zoom used for remote learning are not social media. Was every teacher using remote learning? Of ours not. Some taught in states that respected people rights and didn't try to self-imprison everyone via lockdowns. Yes some of it is parental related especially those parents who were the first millennials in that generation and who now have school aged kids. They were indoctrinated and b/c of that teh school can be more aggressively harmful towards those woke parents kids just as we see with drag queen story time where most parents are early millennials.
Yes it did start before covid. I only said covid and the use of remote learning exposed what was already going on.
To be precise, there was a rampant shift in depression and mental troubles starting in 2010. It definitely is a parental problem no matter which way you slice it, but Covid lockdowns definitely contributed to more kids online longer, a fear imposed at young ages for 3 years, and it has provided a good look into what wasn't happening at many schools, which was learning.
Bravo! Thank you for your persistence on this topic.
I understand that it’s the nature of academia (and possibly also the nature of denial?), and that it is better to have more and more evidence, but part of me also rolls my eyes at your opponents in this debate. We’re not talking about marginal benefits of one formula brand vs another, we’re talking a Gutenberg level revolution in how we think and relate to the world and each other - and yet still some people play dumb and think it can’t possibly be a big deal. Thank you for having the patience to continue engaging the holdouts!
this argument—trying to convince people of the toxicity of smartphones + social media + constant internet access—reminds me most of when i was younger and trying to help some of my friends get over drug addiction.
you can almost see the brains squirming in any and every direction to avoid facing the truth!
I'm just grateful for 2 things that mattered in my life. 1. My boys (born in 1995 and 1998) never really got into social media. 2. I was able to do without and stay home with them 24/7 so I never felt guilty about saying no.
Same for me as a dad. My kids born 97 and 98, never saw social media as a thing and was very protective about their personal life. The where in to playing online games of course, bu they involved me, and we even played together. But I having a new family now, with a teen step daughter, and she's struggling, with Snap and Tik-Tok as a main factor, so the problem is indeed there. I was born 63 so long before mobile phones or internet... I have to say it was better, sorry!
I realize you didn't say this was your situation and maybe it isn't but what you say prompts the question of what's the tradeoff between minimizing social media and kids not having unsupervised time.
I wish I knew. I honestly don't. I knew you weren't talking about me, I just see a pattern in this area with kids. As a teenager before the rise of social media, I had a rough time, even as someone that didn't get picked on. I can't imagine the pressure these girls have now.
Software and smartphones are designed to be addictive -- the goal, as I understand it, is to increase usage. I've been meaning to fully read, "Hooked: How to Build Habit-Forming Products." This concept is slightly terrifying and based on psychology. Sadly, there wasn't foresight to see the negative consequences that this type of product development would have.
Yes 🙌
Those people tend to be like some of my family members. Both parents work full-time, are really tired when they get home, and feel guilty saying no. My two year old niece had some form of entertainment in her face by the time she was 2 years old. It's how they went to dinners, gatherings, and now how they entertain their children. It's probably really hard to solve this problem because when all the kids have it, how do we say no?
I think mental health providers on the frontlines would probably have a great deal to weigh in on this topic. The major downside is that anecdotal evidence is widely dismissed.
The book "Dopamine Nation" by Dr. Anna Lembke (a practicing psychiatrist) weighs in heavily on the correlation between social media and poor mental health. She would find absolutely nothing about this substack post surprising other than the fact that we're only just now waking up to the major issues at stake here.
I agree, I really want to see a compendium of qualitative takes from frontline mental health providers, so we can get a finer-grained understanding of what's going on.
Hey Joe and Rachael,
This is a good idea. We are trying to compile as much research as possible — qualitative and quantitative. If you find any qualitative studies from mental health providers, please add them to our google doc. That would be of huge help
Here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1w-HOfseF2wF9YIpXwUUtP65-olnkPyWcgF5BiAtBEy0/edit
Or here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1diMvsMeRphUH7E6D1d_J7R6WbDdgnzFHDHPx9HXzR5o/edit
I wonder if the "device-free summer camp" idea would be a worthwhile addition to the "The Rewiring Childhood Hypothesis" section in the Google Doc
https://jonathanhaidt.substack.com/p/social-media-mental-illness-epidemic/comment/13022301
Summer camp seems like it could be less of an uphill battle than getting an entire school to go device-free. If it proves effective then the private sector can expand the program quickly in response to parent demand.
We don't need finer grain. The truth is there. Common sense and a beating heart is what we need now.
Money is motivating Zuck and the rest of the Internet, not goodness, not value as a positive force.
No number will convince someone who is scared of an alternative future.
Plenty of people condemn Zuck. Condemning Zuck hasn't changed much. If we have a better understanding of the mechanism of harm, that may suggest other possible solutions beyond generic condemnation.
I think all research could be improved by considering the experiences and insights of practitioners. Some researchers do this via open review of study design, analysis and conclusions.
Sorry, Trish, normally I work with trees so they don't have parents who can talk. Of course, you're right. And patients themselves as well.
Its easier to accept the popular rebuttal from most of the media that this is all just conspiracy theory and get back to one's own personal life and it's challenges than to take a deep and serious look at the issues slowly eroding society. The meme of boiling frogs is most apt to what's been going on because it started out slow and light and once that first generation that was slightly dumbed down had kids those pushing this in public education increased the intensity with each successive generation. The ONLY reason they were exposed was because if covids forcing remote learning. This was a major miscalculation by those pushing it all from the dumbing down and sexual perversion of kids to the controlled demolition of the economy. We can thank covid for providing parents a look at what is actually going on at the schools.
Are you suggesting that teachers are universally using social media in schools? They’re not.
This is a parenting issue, not an educational system one.
Not to forget, this all started well before Covid was ever on the scene.
At my kids' public school system, yes indeed the school district was promoting social media use by the kids. In around 2012 they actively recruited their own middle and high school students to subscribe to their new twitter page so they could get to 1,000 followers. And a brochure for parents they still use gives a green light designation to twitter instagram and facebook for social media platforms. And in 2017 there were at least 3 bomb threats made by young middle school students via twitter. And yet they still have that brochure available in the front office.
The word phrase "Social media' appears no where in the post. Since you don't seem to be aware of this, not everything that happens on the internet is social media. The various systems like zoom used for remote learning are not social media. Was every teacher using remote learning? Of ours not. Some taught in states that respected people rights and didn't try to self-imprison everyone via lockdowns. Yes some of it is parental related especially those parents who were the first millennials in that generation and who now have school aged kids. They were indoctrinated and b/c of that teh school can be more aggressively harmful towards those woke parents kids just as we see with drag queen story time where most parents are early millennials.
Yes it did start before covid. I only said covid and the use of remote learning exposed what was already going on.
To be precise, there was a rampant shift in depression and mental troubles starting in 2010. It definitely is a parental problem no matter which way you slice it, but Covid lockdowns definitely contributed to more kids online longer, a fear imposed at young ages for 3 years, and it has provided a good look into what wasn't happening at many schools, which was learning.
You just explained all in such perfect detail. Nail on head.
🔥🔥🫰❤️