I'd Rather Be Reading

Unbelievably, we’ve reached the season finale of season 13! What a season, huh? Don’t you worry, because we’ve got more conversations to come in season 14. But today we’ve got a great one for you—Julia Boorstin of CNBC is here to chat about her buzzy, powerful book When Women Lead: What They Achieve, Why They Succeed, and How We Can Learn from Them, which came out in 2022 but is still making waves today. The book is, in my opinion, a masterpiece about women, leadership, and business. And Julia knows what she’s talking about—she’s a longtime CNBC reporter and before that was at Fortune magazine, and her work covers business, tech, and entrepreneurship. The crux of the book centers around how and why women leaders thrive, and why women are essential to a successful workplace. Today we talk about what skillsets women specifically bring to a workplace; what women need to succeed in business and what needs to be changed in the modern workplace; women’s adaptability advantage and why resilience matters; and how, if companies care about making money, they’ll invest in women. When Women Lead zooms in on the stories of over 60 female CEOs and is, as Julia writes, a “radical blueprint for the future of business and our world at large.” It’s an absolutely necessary read and I can’t wait to talk about it with Julia today. Julia Boorstin is the senior media and tech correspondent for CNBC and is a graduate of Princeton; she worked at Fortune, has contributed to both CNN and CNN Headline News, and joined CNBC in 2006, and in 2013 created the CNBC Disruptor 50 list, an annual list that highlights private companies that are challenging established industries. She also helped launch the network’s “Closing the Gap” initiative, covering the people and companies closing gender and diversity gaps. This is the perfect conversation to end season 13 on. Take a listen!

Today on the show, we’re talking about the history and power of hairdressing and how, as our guest Dr. Elizabeth Block puts it in her new book, how hair “contributed to the lived experiences of women.” Her new book Beyond Vanity: The History and Power of Hairdressing is out September 10 and looks at hair through an academic lens—and it’s totally compelling. We get into the cultural impact of hair; why hair is, as the title suggests, something that is beyond vanity; how choosing a hairstyle or color is much deeper than surface level; hairdressers, wigs, salons, hair products, hair tools, hair length, and so much more. We dig into when people realized that hair as an entrepreneurial venture could be profitable, hair throughout history, and what historians like our guest today might say about our hair 100 years from now. Walking us through it all is Dr. Elizabeth Block, who teaches us that studying hair and its importance is anything but frivolous. She is an art historian and a senior editor in the publications and editorial department at The Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York City. She is also the author of the award-winning Dressing Up: The Women Who Influenced French Fashion, and her work has appeared in Town & Country, Slate, BBC News, and BBC Woman’s Hour, among other prestigious places. I’m excited for you to hear what she has to say as we dig in.

The 40th president of the United States, Ronald Reagan, is once again our topic du jour today, as we’re talking about Max Boot’s new book Reagan: His Life and Legend, which comes out on September 10. In the fantastic 880-page book, Max quotes someone as having said of Reagan that “there was almost no one who did not succumb to his magic.” Today on the show we talk about what that magic was; about his love story with his wife, Nancy Reagan, who Max writes in the book without her Reagan “would never have been elected to anything”; how he and his presidency are perceived 20 years after his death in 2004; and if, as Max writes in the book, “Reaganism contain[ed] the seeds of Trumpism?” Max and I talk about the differences between Reagan the man and Reagan the public figure, how he was as a father to his four children (one of whom we’ve had on the show!), where his elevated sense of self-confidence came from, and, of course, his legacy. Much to get into, and here to delve into it all with me is Max Boot, an author, historian, and policy analyst who, in addition to writing 880-page definitive biographies, is also a columnist for The Washington Post, a global affairs analyst for CNN, and the Jeane J. Kirkpatrick senior fellow in national security studies at the Council on Foreign Relations. In addition to this new book, Max has also written The Road Not Taken: Edward Lansdale and the American Tragedy in Vietnam, which was a finalist for the Pulitzer Prize for Biography, and Invisible Armies: An Epic History of Guerilla Warfare from Ancient Times to the Present. He has also written The Savage Wars of Peace: Small Wars and the Rise of American Power and War Made New: Technology, Warfare, and the Course of History, 1500 to Today. An impressive man who has certainly written an impressive book.

Let me ask you a question—how much time have you spent really, truly thinking about the United States’ second president, John Adams? Probably not a ton—but today’s conversation will certainly make you think about him, and probably think a bit differently about him, at that. John Adams came into the presidency on the heels of an impossible act to follow—President George Washington, who today’s guest Dr. Lindsay M. Chervinsky writes in her new book Making the Presidency: John Adams and the Precedents that Forged the Republic, was set apart, as “no one else possessed his stature or enjoyed the same level of public trust—and no one else ever would again.” When it came to John Adams, Lindsay writes in the book—which is out September 5—that he “was tasked with navigating the presidency without that unique prestige. He was guaranteed to fall short in comparison to Washington.” Even if Washington wasn’t as beloved a leader as he was, it still would have been a challenge to be the second president of the United States. As Lindsay writes, “Whoever came next was going to mold the office for all the chief executives to follow. John Adams was an experienced diplomat and a thoughtful constitutional thinker. He was also irascible, stubborn, quixotic, and certain that he knew best most of the time. He proved the right man for the moment.” In our conversation today, Lindsay explains why that is so, and how Washington may have created the presidency, but Adams defined it. Today we talk about Adams’ relationship with Washington (after all, he was Washington’s vice president); Adams’ relationship with Thomas Jefferson, who succeeded him in office; how Washington undermined Adams’ success as president; Adams as a leader throughout his 27 years dedicated to public service; Adams as a husband to Abigail and a father to, among others, a future president, John Quincy Adams; and so much more. Incredibly interestingly, Lindsay is the executive director of the George Washington Presidential Library and the author of The Cabinet: George Washington and the Creation of an American Institution. She’s also the co-editor of Mourning the Presidents: Loss and Legacy in American Culture and was a historian at the White House Historical Association. She has been published in Time Magazine, USA Today, The Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post, Washington Monthly, and CNN.com, and, as a presidential historian, is a frequent presidential commentator on national TV and radio.  Today’s conversation is certainly about President John Adams, but it's about the presidency as a whole, too, and I’m excited for you to listen to what Lindsay has to say.

We talk about power frequently in society, but do we ever really put much thought into status? And what even is status, exactly? On the show today, we talk about how much status matters, and our guest, Dr. Alison Fragale, writes in her new book Likeable Badass: How Women Get the Success They Deserve that resources follow respect, and very little advancement is going to happen unless someone has respect—also known as status. Alison writes that women are largely disadvantaged when it comes to status, and that the aforementioned power is based on status so, ergo, when women in particular have lower status, they also have less power. Status is critically important, but we rarely pay attention to it and have sparsely put words to it—that is until Likeable Badass came along. The book came out September 3 and delves into the science of success—one of my favorite topics to study. Alison’s playbook, as outlined in the book, consists of the three steps of understand the game, master the plays, and coach others. She teaches us what the likeable badass solution is, how it’s important for women especially to get credit for both likeability and competence (and how it has, heretofore, been so difficult for both to coexist), how things can often get worse as a career advances, not better, and she introduces us to five limiting mindsets that we need to conquer. If you’re looking to advance in any workplace, we’ve got to figure out status, which, simply defined, is what others’ perception of us is. Here to walk us through it all is Dr. Alison Fragale, who is a behavioral scientist and the Mary Farley Ames Lee Distinguished Scholar of Organizational Behavior at the Kenan-Flagler Business School at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Her work has been published in the most prestigious academic journals in her field as well as outlets like The Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post, Financial Times, Inc. Magazine, Fast Company, and The Boston Globe. She holds a bachelor’s degree from Dartmouth in math and economics and a Ph.D. in organizational behavior from Stanford University’s Graduate School of Business; she is also a renowned keynote speaker, trusted advisor, and genuinely good person, and I’m so excited for you to hear from her today.

Today on the show we’re talking about a bona fide beauty icon—Elizabeth Arden, who built the cosmetics empire of the same name beginning in 1910. Now, if you think about that time period, not many women were running a beauty empire, but she was. At the height of her career, she was one of the wealthiest women in the world, but what do we really know about Elizabeth Arden, the woman? Well, first of all, Elizabeth Arden is not her birth name—that would be Florence Nightengale Graham. Elizabeth Arden is largely to thank for establishing makeup as proper and appropriate, and even necessary, as previously makeup was only associated with actresses and prostitutes. Today’s guest, Dr. Stacy A. Cordery, has written a brilliant book about this remarkable woman called Becoming Elizabeth Arden: The Woman Behind the Global Beauty Empire, which is out September 3. Buoyed by her genuine belief that “every woman deserves to be beautiful,” as Stacy writes, “her salons empowered women—not just to look their best, but to be their best.” Elizabeth Arden was known for its three simple foundational skincare steps—cleanse, tone, and nourish. It’s also known for its red door salons, the Arden look, color harmony, and now, for being an empire. Today on the show, Stacy teaches us about the woman and about the company, which was acquired by Revlon in 2016 for a whopping $870 million. Elizabeth Arden is responsible for fashioning the American woman. She made cosmetics mandatory, if one wanted to be fashionable. Stacy writes that her creative genius still influences fashion and design today, and “From the humblest of origins, pioneering businesswoman Elizabeth Arden grew into a global industry leader." She died in 1966 at 84 years old, but certainly not before leaving her mark. Dr. Stacy A. Cordery is here to tell us all about her. She is a biographer and a professor of history at Iowa State University, and is the author of Alice: Alice Roosevelt Longworth, from White House Princess to Washington Power Broker, Juliette Gordon Low: The Remarkable Founder of the Girl Scouts, and two books about President Theodore Roosevelt. You might have seen her work on NPR, The History Channel, CNN, C-SPAN, and The Smithsonian Channel, and now she’s right here, right now. Let’s take a listen.

Tomorrow, August 30, the biopic Reagan hits theaters, with Dennis Quaid playing President Ronald Reagan. We’re so fortunate on the show today to have a man who knew Reagan well—Ken Khachigian, whose new book Behind Closed Doors: In the Room with Reagan and Nixon, focuses on his relationship with not just Reagan but also President Richard Nixon, as well. Right smack dab on the front cover of the book, which just came out on July 23, Ken is described as a speechwriter, confidant, and strategist to political legends. In today’s episode, I ask Ken what role he enjoyed playing most and why, and which role was the most challenging for him. Ken was a longtime aide to President Nixon and was there for both his resignation 50 years ago this month and the Frost/Nixon interviews. Later, he was President Reagan’s chief speechwriter. Ken is a veteran of nine presidential campaigns, and in this book takes us in the room with not just one but two presidents. In addition to his work as a successful attorney, Ken became California’s premier Republican strategist in elections for governor, senator, and attorney general. He helped Nixon craft his memoirs and wrote notable speeches for Reagan like his first inaugural address, welcome home remarks for hostages taken during the Iran hostage crisis, his acceptance speech at the 1984 Republican National Convention, and, four years later, his farewell address at the 1988 Republican National Convention. Most recently, when it comes to presidential campaigns, he served as a senior advisor on the 1996 campaign of Bob Dole, the 2000 campaign of John McCain, and the 2008 campaign of Fred Thompson. Take a listen to what he has to say.

When it comes to books that have impacted my life for the better, Kara Loewentheil’s Take Back Your Brain: How a Sexist Society Gets in Your Head—and How to Get It Out tops the list. It came out May 21, and in it she writes that our thoughts “are like GPS—they tell your brain what to focus on, how to feel, and what to do. You have to set that GPS on purpose to create the life you want.” To do so, Kara walks us through three steps: 1. How to identify what thoughts are really driving you. 2. How to evaluate whether a thought is serving you or not. 3. How to change your thoughts. Today on the show we’re talking about the Voice as a proper noun, neuroplasticity, the brain gap, the thought-emotion-behavior-return loop, and how to create a new neural pathway through the brilliant thought ladder concept. If it all sounds overwhelming, I promise you, both Kara’s book and this conversation breaks it all down into easily digestible and understandable bits that will improve your life. If my ringing endorsement isn’t enough, Take Back Your Brain is a New York Times bestseller, a No. 1 nonfiction bestseller for USA Today, and a Publishers Weekly bestseller. If you are looking to stop endless negative self-talk and step into power and confidence and joy—and especially if you’re a woman—you have arrived at the right conversation as we aim to take back our thoughts, getting rid of the ones that no longer serve us. Kara is the host of the extremely popular “UnF*ck Your Brain” podcast; she’s also a Harvard Law School graduate, Master Life Coach, and the founder of The New School of Feminist Thought. Take Back Your Brain is her first book, but my goodness, I hope it’s not her last. Take a listen to this powerful conversation.

Today on the show we are talking about American fashion, specifically Empresses of Seventh Avenue: World War II, New York City, and the Birth of American Fashion, the brand-new book from Nancy MacDonell, out August 27. Prior to World War II, American designers were nothing short of second-class citizens to the French. But, after the Nazis invaded Paris during the war, everything changed for French fashion, and by the time the war ended in 1945, the American look was in fashion. What is the American look, you ask? Nancy answers that for us today, as well as introduces us to a fascinating cast of characters who helped birth American fashion: Elizabeth Hawes, Eleanor Lambert, and Claire McCardell, for starters. Soon, American fashion began to beat the French at their own game, and this is all a leadup to the Battle of Versailles, which we interviewed Robin Givhan about on the show last year. American fashion is thriving now—at $500 billion, it’s the largest fashion industry in the world—but there would likely be no Calvin Klein, Ralph Lauren, Marc Jacobs, Tom Ford, Tory Burch, Halston, or Michael Kors without the Empresses of Seventh Avenue. These women have largely been forgotten to history—that is, until Nancy MacDonnell came along. Nancy is a fashion journalist and fashion historian that writes The Wall Street Journal column “Fashion with a Past,” which explores the historic roots of current fashion trends. Nancy has written everywhere from The New York Times to Elle, Vogue, and many other publications, and she’s written five books, including The Classic Ten: The True Story of the Little Black Dress and Nine Other Fashion Favorites. In addition to her work as a writer, Nancy is also an adjunct lecturer in fashion history at the Fashion Institute of Technology. Let’s take a listen to what she has to say.

Today I am talking to author Heath Hardage Lee about one of America’s First Ladies, and perhaps one of our most private ones—Pat Nixon, wife of President Richard Nixon. The timing is interesting: earlier this month marked 50 years since President Nixon’s resignation from the presidency following Watergate, and earlier this month Heath released her really, really fantastic new book The Mysterious Mrs. Nixon: The Life and Times of Washington’s Most Private First Lady, which I absolutely tore through. There is so much we have gotten wrong about Mrs. Nixon over the years. First of all, she was a private woman, which led her to come across as, as the book’s title suggests, mysterious. Misunderstood, even. Heath and I speak about this in today’s episode, but her public persona was “Plastic Pat,” while the real Mrs. Nixon was anything but. Heath and I talk today about her love story with Richard Nixon; how Mrs. Nixon was First Lady and running the East Wing of the White House at a very interesting time, constantly toeing the line between the traditional wife and modern woman; what doors she opened for women; an example of Pat at her best and at her wobbliest; and so much more. Pat Nixon died in 1993, and, perhaps indicative of his love for her and how much he needed her, President Nixon died just 10 months later. To teach us more about Mrs. Nixon is Heath Hardage Lee, an award-winning historian, biographer, and curator. Heath’s book The League of Wives is currently being developed into a television series, and Heath and her work have been featured on The Today Show, C-SPAN, and on the Smithsonian Channel’s America’s Hidden Stories. She also writes about history and politics for outlets like Time, The Atlantic, The Hill, and White House History Quarterly. Take a listen to our conversation.

Today on the show we’re returning to the Alex Murdaugh saga, as I call it—this is actually not the first time on the show we’ve spoken about it and not even the first time in season 13 we’ve spoken about it. It is compelling to me for its savagery—I can’t understand it, a man who could do this evil to his family and to so many others, as well. Today on the show we have Valerie Bauerlein, here to talk about her brilliant new book The Devil at His Elbow: Alex Murdaugh and the Fall of a Southern Dynasty, which comes out today, August 20. Alex was the Prince of Hampton County, South Carolina, as Valerie puts it, and he came from a long line of Murdaughs who believed “To live above the law, you must become the law.” So they did that. They all became lawyers—or solicitors, as they’re known in Hampton County—and ran the town and the county. Not only do we learn more about Alex and his immediate family of Maggie, Buster, and Paul Murdaugh in this book, but also the deeper Murdaugh family history, filled with corruption and crime and callousness, quite frankly. Valerie is such a talented writer—she writes that, for Alex, “duplicity was his birthright,” and in this book we learn information I’d never heard or read before about his murder case for the deaths of Maggie and Paul and other crimes he committed, as well. As Valerie writes, “Three generations of Murdaughs had devoted a century to building a legal dynasty. Now, in a little more than ten years, Alex had burned the whole thing down.” This book details how he did just that. Valerie Bauerlein is on the show today, and she is fantastic. She is a national reporter for The Wall Street Journal who writes about small-town America and Southern politics, economics, and culture. She has covered the South her entire career, including 19 years at The Wall Street Journal and four years at The State in Columbia, South Carolina. I’m excited for you to meet her and learn more about this saga from her.

I’m really excited to bring you this conversation today about a book that came out in 2017 called Beauty Sick: How the Cultural Obsession with Appearance Hurts Girls and Women by Dr. Renee Engeln. In the book, Dr. Engeln introduces us to beauty sick culture and what it feels like and looks like for women and girls. She writes in the book “How might women’s lives be different if they book the energy and concern aimed at their own appearance and aimed it out at the world instead?” If women didn’t have to worry about this, think of all we could get done. The desire to be thin and pretty, to be the beauty ideal, seems to affect girls younger and younger, and in Beauty Sick Dr. Engeln introduces us to what she calls the “tyranny of the mirror,” and writes that looks shouldn’t matter—but they do. Beauty is used as a source of power for women, and girls learn that the most important asset they possess is their physical beauty. We don’t teach boys and men this same lesson. Beauty, Dr. Engeln writes, is a weak and temporary power, and beauty sickness is a barrier to gender equality, where we see women as objects instead of human beings. Today we talk about how social media has played into this, how beauty sickness revolves around shame, how it attacks women’s mental and emotional well-being and their financial well-being, as well, and how we should, in her words, “turn away from the mirror to face the world.” Dr. Engeln writes that she’s looking for “a culture that sees women not as objects to be looked at, but as human beings who are ready and able to change the world in remarkable ways,” and so am I. Dr. Engeln’s TEDx talk on beauty sickness received more than 700,000 views and reveals the shocking consequences of our obsession with girls’ appearance, including depression, eating disorders, disruptions in cognitive processing, and lost money and time. This book combines scientific studies and the voices of real women of all ages, and I’m really excited to introduce you to Dr. Engeln, who has been a professor for 15 years at Northwestern, where she teaches about psychopathology, the psychology of women and gender, social psychology, and the psychology of human beauty. In addition to publishing numerous empirical journal articles and presenting at academic conferences on body image, media, and the objectification of women, Dr. Engeln presents talks on these topics to groups around the country and is regularly interviewed by media outlets, including The New York Times, Chicago Tribune, Today.com, The Huffington Post, and more. At Northwestern, her lab, The Body and Media Lab, conducts research exploring issues surrounding women’s body images, with a particular emphasis on cultural practices that create or enforce the frequently contentious relationship women have with their bodies. Take a listen to this compelling conversation.

We’ve actually already talked about today’s book and author before on the show—back in January, when the book came out, we mentioned it on the show as it was my first #ReadwithMC book club pick. And now, how lucky are we today to have Kate Kennedy on I’d Rather Be Reading discussing her book One in a Millennial: On Friendships, Feelings, Fangirls, and Fitting In, which came out January 23. This book put into words everything I wish I could have said about being a millennial and perfectly nails down the millennial experience into 336 pages. Some of it is nostalgic and fun—stick around for our lightning round at the end of the episode—but some of it, quite frankly, isn’t pretty. In this book and in this conversation Kate introduces us to the millennial paradox, what a lost millennial is, and so much more. In this book and in her work, Kate Kennedy has become the voice of a generation. She is a podcast host of the wildly popular show “Be There In Five,” a New York Times bestselling author—in addition to One in a Millennial, she also wrote a book about her love/hate relationship with social media called Twinkle, Twinkle, Social Media Star, and is a pop culture commentator. She also invented the “remindoormat” in 2014, which she created as a hobby after she decided to paint “turn off your curling iron” on her doormat in an attempt to not burn down her apartment. She then took it to a wider scale to much success, and called it Be There in Five (which later became the name of her podcast), which launched a line of reminder, affirmation, and custom doormats for people on the go. The doormats took off, and Kate left her corporate marketing job to run the business full-time. Kate is still writing her story—as are all millennials—and she’s here to talk about her book with us today. I want to make a special dedication to my dear friend Mary, who loves Kate as much as I do and is a fellow millennial and just about the best friend, cheerleader, and hype woman a girl can have. I love you Mary, and I hope all of you love this episode.

Twenty-five years ago, on September 22, 1999, one of the most beloved television shows of all time premiered on NBC: The West Wing, starring Martin Sheen, Rob Lowe, Allison Janney, Bradley Whitford, John Spencer, and a whole host of other talented actors, including our two guests today—but more on them in a moment. The political drama was created and largely written by Aaron Sorkin, one of my personal favorite writers, and aired from that day in 1999 until May 14, 2006, totaling seven seasons. Across its 154 episodes, we become immersed, as the title suggests, in the West Wing of the White House, where the Oval Office and the offices of those that work closely with the president are located, during the fictional Democratic administration of President Josiah Bartlet, played by Martin Sheen. The West Wing is regularly and often ranked among the best television shows of all time, and during its run won three Golden Globe Awards and a whopping 26 Primetime Emmy Awards, including the award for Outstanding Drama Series, which it won four consecutive times from 2000 to 2003. Beloved cast member John Spencer, who played chief of staff Leo McGarry, died unexpectedly of a heart attack on December 16, 2005, about a year after his character experienced a nearly fatal heart attack on the show. This, naturally, rocked the cast, and the show ended five months after his death. Today on the show we have two cast members, Melissa Fitzgerald and Mary McCormack, here to discuss their new book What’s Next?: A Backstage Pass to the West Wing, Its Cast and Crew, and Its Enduring Legacy of Service, which is out August 13. This book is so great, and it’s long—825 pages’ worth of interviews and oral history about a show that changed culture. Today, Melissa, Mary, and I talk about what made The West Wing such a cultural touchstone, the show’s enduring commitment to public service, the group chat that continues still today, what the book’s title means, the show’s legacy, and so much more. Melissa played Carol Fitzpatrick on the show, an assistant to press secretary C.J. Cregg (played by Allison Janney). In addition to her career as an actress—she has also appeared on Grey’s Anatomy and in The Truman Show—she is also the founder of Voices in Harmony, a nonprofit community theater in L.A., and back in November 2013 joined Justice for Vets as its Senior Director. Mary played Deputy National Security Adviser Kate Harper on The West Wing and has appeared in films like Private Parts, Deep Impact, True Crime, and Mystery, Alaska, and on shows like Murder One, ER, In Plain Sight, Scandal, The Newsroom, Will & Grace, and The Kids Are Alright. I can’t wait for you to hear this conversation!

On May 4, 1970, during a rally on the campus of Kent State University opposing expanding the Vietnam War into Cambodia by United States military forces, as well as protesting the draft and the Ohio National Guard’s presence on campus, all it took was 13 seconds for 28 National Guard soldiers to fire 67 rounds, killing four and wounding nine unarmed college students. One of the nine injured suffered permanent paralysis, and students Allison Krause, 19, Jeffrey Miller, 20, Sandra Scheuer, 20, and William Schroeder, 19, were killed. Students had been protesting on campus since May 1, and after the Kent State shootings, immediate and massive outrage sparked at college campuses across the country. More than four million students participated in organized walkouts at hundreds of colleges, universities, and even high schools, and the shootings made the United States’ role in the Vietnam War even more contentious. It was a loss of innocence, and a Pulitzer Prize winning photo of a young woman wailing over the body of Jeffrey Miller summed up the feelings of a generation. In the photo, she seems to silently scream “Why? Why? Why?” After the incident, eight of the shooters were charged and ultimately acquitted in a bench trial. The Kent State massacre was a cultural moment that shook the nation, and, as Brian VanDeMark writes in his brilliant new book Kent State: An American Tragedy, out tomorrow, “If you want to know when the Sixties died, they died on May 4, 1970, right there and then, at 12:24 in the afternoon.” Today on the show, Brian and I discuss so much, including what Kent State represented on the whole for America, its legacy, and what we learned from it. Brian teaches history at the United States Naval Academy, Annapolis and is the author of several books on American history, including co-authoring Robert McNamara’s bestselling Vietnam memoir, In Retrospect, which became the basis of the Academy Award-winning documentary The Fog of War. Take a listen to this fascinating conversation with him about a moment that changed history forever.

If you’ve been a longtime listener to the show, you know I love to have conversations about faith, and I’ve got two back-to-back ones for you listeners this weekend. Today on the show we have the absolutely lovely Demi-Leigh Tebow, who you might know as Miss Universe 2017. Back then, she was Demi-Leigh Nel-Peters, before she married famous quarterback Tim Tebow in 2020. Demi-Leigh is the founder of The Tebow Group, an entrepreneur, a keynote speaker, and an influencer who was crowned both Miss South Africa and Miss Universe. Demi-Leigh is also a voice for the voiceless for victims of human trafficking, and is now an author, with the release on Tuesday of A Crown That Lasts: You Are Not Your Label. The book’s title pays tribute to her Miss Universe crown, and Demi-Leigh writes candidly and vulnerably in the book about how she lost her identity—lost herself, really—in being Miss Universe. Now, as I tell Demi-Leigh in this episode, not every one of us is going to be Miss Universe, but so many of us lose ourselves in our own titles—wife. Mother. Daughter. Insert your career here. But what matters is not only who are, but whose we are. This book showcases Demi-Leigh’s journey to, as she put it, untangle her identity from her label, and to find confidence in a crown that lasts, not one that is temporary. The book tells her story and also helps us continue to craft our own story; it’s filled with such rich advice and such heartfelt reflection. As obviously beautiful as Demi-Leigh is on the outside, it compares not to the inner beauty she possesses in spades. Take a listen to our powerful conversation.

One of my favorite faith leaders, Max Lucado, is on the show today chatting with me about his latest book, What Happens Next: A Traveler’s Guide Through the End of This Age, which comes out on August 13. Today’s show is a conversation about faith, and about the end times—but it’s anything but doom and gloom and frightening and scary. It’s quite the opposite, actually—I’ve never felt more peace about what will happen to me when it’s my time, and I’ve also never felt more peace about those I love that have already gone home. Max writes in What Happens Next that “God tells us what to expect not to scare us, but to prepare us” and reassures us that it’s all happening right on schedule, writing “Be assured, God is at work. His plans are proceeding at the right pace, in the right places, and according to His will.” In this conversation and in this book, I learned more about paradise, and left feeling so filled with hope of what is to come. I have listened to Max’s voice for so long, as I am a listener of his “Encouraging Word” podcast, and it was such a thrill to have Max speaking directly to me. Max is a bestselling author and minister at Oak Hills Church in San Antonio, and Max has written almost 100 books—100 books!—and regularly appears on the New York Times bestseller list. He was named “America’s Pastor” by Christianity Today and “The Best Preacher in America” by Reader’s Digest; he has appeared on programs like NBC Nightly News and Larry King Live, in the pages of USA Today, and has even been a featured speaker at the National Prayer Breakfast. His voice is so, so comforting to me, and, as the Olympics wrap up this weekend, don’t miss what Max says about our loved ones that have gone before us cheering us on as we run our race, like spectators in an Olympic stadium. I hope you will get as much richness and goodness out of this conversation as I most certainly did.

I am a big fan of the dynamic Lydia Fenet, who has written not one but two books we are talking about on the show today: The Most Powerful Woman in the Room Is You: Command an Audience and Sell Your Way to Success, which came out in 2019, and Claim Your Confidence: Unlock Your Superpower and Create the Life You Want, which came out last year. Lydia is the CEO and founder of the Lydia Fenet Agency, has raised over a billion dollars for nonprofits globally as the world’s leading charity auctioneer, hosts a podcast I love and subscribe to called “Claim Your Confidence,” is a globally recognized speaker, and is a wife and mom. She grew up in Lake Charles, Louisiana, which we talk about in today’s episode, and rose to become Global Managing Director of Strategic Partnerships for Christie’s Auction House. Today on the show Lydia talks to us about confidence, and her belief that, in her words, “you already have everything it takes to be confident” and that “confidence and power comes from within.” She talks about her worst-case scenario moment, what confidence means to a life, why the journey is more important than the destination, why fear is our “greatest learning tool,” what her Southern upbringing taught her, and about the car accident that nearly took her life. Lydia has made a career built on empowering others, and you’ll no doubt leave this conversation feeling just that—empowered. Enjoy!

Both by Lydia Fenet:

One of my recent absolute obsessions is skincare. I am always looking for new information, data, research, and resources about my skin, and that’s how I stumbled across Hannah English’s brilliant book Your Best Skin: The Science of Skincare, which came out in 2022. Hannah is a beauty writer, content creator, and pharmaceutical scientist with a clinical research background who breaks down the science behind skincare in such an easily digestible and understandable format. Hannah’s book teaches us truly everything I can think of that I’d ever want to know about skincare—starting with what skincare is, exactly, and the job of the skin. This book is a wealth of knowledge and answers almost every question you can think of when it comes to the topic. Today on the show, Hannah talks about the piece of advice she wishes more people knew about skincare, the most frequently asked question she gets about skincare, if we should treat the skin on our face differently than the skin on our body, the proper order of skincare products and what skincare products we actually need (as opposed to what is marketed to us that we need), the most efficacious skincare routine, how she really feels about makeup wipes, retinol, and injectables like Botox, and so much more. So much good information that is applicable to everyone with skin—so, yes, that’s every single one of you listeners. Take a listen!

Today on the show we have Jason Ryan, here to talk to us about his new book Swamp Kings: The Story of the Murdaugh Family of South Carolina and a Century of Backwoods Power, which came out in April. We have spoken about the Murdaugh saga (as I like to call it) on the show before, and we’ll actually speak about it again in season 13. This book certainly talks about Alex Murdaugh, but it also talks about the Murdaugh family of Hampton County, South Carolina, and how Alex’s actions—as depraved as they are—are really only the tip of the iceberg. The Murdaugh power dynasty may have ended with him, but crimes like fraud, theft, and even alleged murder certainly didn’t begin with him. Jason had so much access to the key players, the history, and the place—the Lowcountry of South Carolina. Jason actually lives in Charleston, South Carolina, and his deep connections to the setting allowed for some really fantastic reporting here. Prior to Swamp Kings, Jason wrote books like Jackpot: High Times, High Seas, and the Sting that Launched the War on Drugs; Hell-Bent: One Man’s Crusade to Crush the Hawaiian Mob; and Race to Hawaii: The 1927 Dole Air Derby and the Thrilling First Flights That Opened the Pacific. I found Jason to be a delight, despite our subject matter at hand being pretty dark. Take a listen.

We are kicking off season 13 with a book from 2021 that changed my life for the better that I had to revisit and bring to you listeners: Energize: Go from Dragging Ass to Kicking It In 30 Days by Dr. Michael Breus and Stacey Griffith. Dr. Michael Breus is known as “the Sleep Doctor,” and to that end, he writes in the book “to stop feeling so tired and burst with infinite energy all day long, all you have to do is follow the right schedule personalized for your chronotype and body type.” What is a chronotype, and what do you mean by body types? He gets into that in today’s episode, and, of course, in the book. Once you have your chronotype and your body type, you get your Power Profile, and from there your Power Protocol, which teaches us the best time to eat, the best time to have sex, the best time to do basically everything to have more energy. This book and this conversation introduces us to five kinds of movement, why getting eight hours of sleep a night might not be accurate, why we shouldn’t drink coffee straightaway when we wake up and should instead get 20 minutes of direct sunlight, water, a cold shower, and a stretch, and how long before bed we should cut out alcohol and blue light to get the best sleep possible. I am all about optimization and living my best life, and this book really was a key component of helping me get there. (I’m still a work in progress, by the way.) Dr. Breus is a clinical psychologist and has been in private practice as a sleep doctor for nearly 25 years, and has been on every major media outlet you can think of, from Oprah to Today to Dr. Oz. In addition to Energize—which, of course, is out right now—he’s also written other great books, including The Power of When, The Sleep Doctor’s Diet Plan, and Good Night. By the way, the co-author of Energize is Stacey Griffith, who is a founding instructor at SoulCycle. I can’t wait for you to hear this conversation.

I have always been a big proponent of books finding you when they’re meant to, and I recently read Daniel Pink’s latest book, The Power of Regret: How Looking Backward Moves Us Forward, which came out in 2022. I’ll be honest—I don’t think I had ever consciously thought about regret until reading his book. Then, I realized, by learning from the regrets of my past, I could at least try to do my best to prevent the regrets of my future. As I mentioned last week, I am taking a big leap professionally—today, actually, is my last day at Marie Claire, and in August I’ll begin my new role at People magazine. I felt safe and comfortable at Marie Claire, but when this People opportunity came up, I knew I’d regret it if I didn’t try, even if the role intimidated me. So I took the leap, and I am proud of myself for doing that. Dan writes that none of us escape regret—well, save for a select few, which he explains in the episode today—and writes that regrets not only make us human, but they make us better. He writes that regret is “an essential component of the human experience” and “a marker of a healthy, maturing mind”; he also writes that regret is the most misunderstood emotion. Dan went deep on researching regret, even conducting the World Regret Survey to learn more about it. Wait until you hear in this episode some of the data he found from interviewing 15,000 people from 105 countries around the globe. He was able to break down regret into four core categories, which he expounds on in today’s episode: foundation, boldness, moral, and connection regrets. Today we talk about what the most common regrets are universally, if there is a time period in one’s life from which the most regrets stem from, the difference between “if only” and “at least” statements, and why regret, in his words, gives him hope. There’s a reason I bookended the last episode with Kathleen Griffith with this episode. The last episode talked about building the career and life of your dreams; this episode talks about what happens—regret—if we don’t go for it and say yes to the big life, the big goals, the big dreams. I am in a season of saying yes to the big life, the big goals, the big dreams, and I hope you’ll join me there. Let me tell you about the work of Daniel Pink, who is absolutely brilliant—you probably already know who he is, as his work has been so important for so long. He is a No. 1 New York Times bestselling author of seven books that have sold millions of copies around the world and won multiple awards. His books are known for helping both readers and organizations rethink how they live and operate, and some of my favorite books by Dan include Drive: The Surprising Truth About What Motivates Us and When: The Scientific Secrets of Perfect Timing. He is a graduate of Northwestern and Yale Law School, and from 1995 to 1997, he was the chief speechwriter for Vice President Al Gore. This was not planned, but today, July 23, when this episode drops, happens to be Dan’s birthday. So happy birthday Dan and thank you for this conversation. Take a listen.

I am so excited to introduce you today to a woman who will change the world for the better—and already is. Today on the show we have the dynamic Kathleen Griffith, whose book Build Like a Woman: The Blueprint for Creating a Business and Life You Love, came out on June 4 and, I am happy to tell you, is already a bestseller. Kathleen opens the book by writing that “This book is for every woman who is done and ready,” and talks about building a business and a life through the lens and framework of architecture and construction and building—think a demolition, a punchlist, a crew. This book is definitely for founders and entrepreneurs and those starting a business, but it’s also for those, like me for example, who may not be starting a business—yet, anyway—but who have ideas and who want to illuminate both their careers and their lives. As Kathleen puts it, “It will be painful, but it will be every bit worth it” as we construct the careers and lives of our dreams. The book champions the concept of a “total life” and in it we learn about an integrated life layout, where we can make a difference both at work and at home, and, though work/life balance will never be achieved, we can find a work/life integration that works for us. In addition to Kathleen’s own powerful words, the book is punctuated by the voices of boldfaced entrepreneurs like Jessica Alba, Arianna Huffington, and so many more—their voices are the icing on an already rich cake. In the book we learn about the three Cs of culture, category, and customer; what the difference is between a big B and a little b breakdown; what building like a woman means, and why doing so is a force to be reckoned with; and the book features questions to get our brains going to build the life we want. Kathleen says more than once in the book that the goal is to build a life that is “so perfectly imperfect, imperfectly yours.” And that’s just it—it’s your life. If you are living your life for anyone but you, a life that doesn’t fit anymore or maybe never did, a life that doesn’t feel right—then right now is the time to change that and start living the life of your dreams. Kathleen and her book have a roadmap on how to do that. Kathleen is a founder herself and CEO of Grayce & Co., a strategy agency for women. She specializes in the female consumer and is a forefront and outspoken champion and advocate for women. This book is a tool for success that will teach you skills like life design, wellness practices, money management, brand strategy, sales pitches, and so much more; you’ll leave with both a mindset and a skillset after reading. Kathleen is an award-winning serial entrepreneur, business strategist, TV producer, speaker, and now, author that has directed more than $500 million in marketing dollars and generated over a billion dollars in profit for clients ranging from Nike Women to Verizon. Let’s dig into our conversation with her.

This book may have come out nearly four years ago, but it is just as needed today as it was in 2020: entrepreneur Kara Goldin’s Undaunted: Overcoming Doubts and Doubters. Kara, who founded the flavored water brand Hint in 2005, calls herself an “accidental entrepreneur,” and founded Hint after a Diet Coke addiction, which—relatable. Kara’s mission is helping people fall in love with healthy choices, and this drove her decision to found Hint and expand it into verticals like sunscreen, for example. On the show today we talk about the importance of a mission, facing our fears, what living undaunted looks like, why she considers herself a disruptor, what she’d add to the book today, four years on, and so much more. I found Kara to be dynamic, passionate, kind, warm, and authentic, and in addition to writing Undaunted and founding Hint, Kara has also worked at TIME, CNN, and AOL; she is a wife and a mother of four kids; she, too, is a podcaster, and hosts The Kara Goldin Show, which I love; and she created The Kara Network as a place for fellow entrepreneurs to reach out and tell their stories as well as provide helpful insight to those interested in following a similar path. This book is part autobiography, part business memoir, and Kara is as real as it gets. Take a listen to our conversation.

What an episode we have for you listeners today as we conclude our JFK Jr. series. Today, July 16, officially marks 25 years since the plane crash that took the lives of John, Carolyn, and Lauren, and on the show today we have RoseMarie Terenzio and Liz McNeil, who have written the absolutely brilliant new book JFK Jr.: An Intimate Oral Biography, which is out today. RoseMarie also wrote the memoir Fairytale Interrupted: A Memoir of Life, Love, and Loss, which came out in 2012; we talk about Fairytale Interrupted on the show today, too. Rose and Liz’s new book, the oral biography, is one of the best books I have ever read—full stop. And not just about the Kennedys, but period. It is so rich with detail, honesty, transparency, courage, new information—even someone like me, who has read every book on the Kennedys I can get my hands on, learned so much in this read. So many people you expect to be interviewed are interviewed, but then there’s the unexpected barrage of celebrities, with everyone from Brooke Shields to Julia Roberts, Mike Tyson, Whoopi Goldberg, Carly Simon, President Bill Clinton, Wyclef Jean, Demi Moore, and Drew Barrymore making appearances. There is so much good here—I could not put it down. It is a full, robust portrayal of a life—John’s life. Rose was John’s assistant for five years and had an incredibly unique relationship with him—she was his personal assistant, which she writes in Fairytale Interrupted was the best job she ever had. They had such a fun dynamic—full of brother/sister teasing. Of Carolyn, though she was presented in the press as an ice queen, Rose speaks of her as this warm, generous woman, loyal, loving, kind. Rose had a front row seat to the creation and launch of his magazine, George, and was also deeply involved in John and Carolyn’s top-secret wedding planning. Rose was one of the first people to learn that John, Carolyn, and Lauren were missing, right behind Carole Radziwill, who we interviewed last week. This book is perfect to conclude our series on JFK Jr. and to honor John, Carolyn, and Lauren on this anniversary of their death. It’s told in one of my absolute favorite formats—the oral history—and I can’t wait for you to hear this conversation with Rose and Liz, who is an editor-at-large at People magazine, where she has worked for the last 30 years. These days, Rose is a strategic communications professional and also executive produced Paramount Network’s I Am JFK Jr. I can’t wait for you to hear from them both.

Today on the show we have a living legend—Kathie Lee Gifford is here to talk about her faith and, listeners, you know I love to talk to guests about their faith. Kathie Lee has written a really compelling new book that juxtaposes the story of evil personified in King Herod with the living hope of Jesus told through the story of his mother, Mary. Kathie Lee writes in her new book Herod and Mary: The True Story of the Tyrant King and the Mother of the Risen Savior, which is out July 16, that she has been completely fascinated by the historical figure of Herod the Great since she went on a trip to the Holy Land back in 2012. Herod was Christianity’s first true persecutor, and was a tyrannical ruler; Kathie Lee writes that Herod’s story is the greatest story never told. This book is a historical narrative that reads like a modern-day thriller and is really not your typical nonfiction book—it reads like a novel, but it’s all true. In addition to the juxtaposition between Herod and Mary, there’s another juxtaposition in the book, which is the contrast between a king like Herod, with all his privileges, and then someone like Jesus, the King of the world, who was born in an animal pen. At the end of the book, Kathie Lee includes codas of really interesting conversations between her and her collaborator, Dr. Bryan Litfin, basically unpacking the book and talking readers through it. In those codas, she really vulnerably and bravely reveals some very personal details about her own life that helped me get to know her better and respect her even more. There’s no way you don’t know who Kathie Lee Gifford is, but just in case you don’t, she co-hosted Live! With Regis and Kathie Lee alongside Regis Philbin from 1985 to 2000, and also had an 11-year run with Hoda Kotb on the fourth hour of Today from 2008 to 2019. Kathie Lee has received 11 Daytime Emmy nominations and won her first Daytime Emmy in 2010 with Today. She has also served as an NBC News correspondent and got her start on Name That Tune back in 1978. She married sportscaster and former NFL player Frank Gifford in 1986, and he passed away in 2015; they share two children. In addition to her broadcasting career, Kathie Lee has released multiple albums and multiple books, including books about her faith, cooking, children’s books, and biographical books, like 2018’s The Rock, the Road, and the Rabbi and 2020’s It’s Never Too Late: Make the Next Act of Your Life the Best Act of Your Life. I tell Kathie Lee this on the show today, but I feel that all of that work was meant to get her right here, to the place where she has a platform and can share about her faith and invite others to join her in it. Take a listen to this powerful conversation.

Most people probably know Carole Radziwill from her time on The Real Housewives of New York City and while, don’t get me wrong, I loved her on the show—that’s nowhere near the most interesting part of her story. Carole is an extraordinarily talented journalist and had an esteemed career in the field, even working as a war correspondent at one point. She worked as a journalist and a producer for nearly two decades at ABC News, during which time she earned three Emmys. Carole married her fellow ABC News producer, Prince Anthony Radziwill—son of socialite Lee Radziwill and nephew of Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis—on August 27, 1994; he died of cancer on August 10, 1999. Anthony’s best friend was his cousin, John F. Kennedy Jr., and Carole’s best friend was his wife, Carolyn Bessette-Kennedy. In the summer of 1999—which Carole refers to as “the summer of tragedy”—Carole knew the end of her husband’s life was near. What she didn’t know, of course, was that on July 16, 1999, John and Carolyn, along with Carolyn’s sister, Lauren, would die in a plane crash. Carole lost the three people closest to her in less than a month of one another, all of them 40 years old and younger—Anthony had just turned 40 six days before his death. Of her life with Anthony, Carole writes in her brilliant memoir What Remains: A Memoir of Fate, Friendship, and Love, which came out in 2005, that “We are young and happy and have all the time in the world,” except, tragically, they don’t. The book tells priceless anecdotes, like how hilarious Carolyn was—she left Carole a note about her Gap sneakers saying that if she didn’t get rid of them, their relationship couldn’t continue in a growth-oriented way. Carolyn was selfless. She was compassionate. Interesting. She was a wonderful, caring, kind friend. One of my favorite anecdotes from the book was when she declined signing an autograph for someone, saying “You don’t want mine. You want Carole’s. She has three Emmys.” Carolyn had this ability to make someone feel like the only person in the room—the most important person in the room. Carole writes in What Remains “She made me believe I was captivating.” The entire world knows who Carolyn is; very few got to call her a best friend. In this book, we get to learn what it was like to be Carolyn’s best friend. So many of our conversations in this series have been about John—and rightfully so, as he was and, quite frankly, still is captivating. But this episode is basically all about Carolyn. Carole writes that both she and Carolyn were not the women that people expected Anthony and John to end up with. John, by the way, was already, devastatingly, writing the eulogy of his cousin and best friend Anthony before John himself died. Who would have ever thought John, and Carolyn, for that matter, would be lost before Anthony? On that awful night of July 16, as the 16th turned into the 17th, Carole was one of the first to learn that John, Carolyn, and Lauren’s plane was missing. She describes learning they were missing and the time between that and learning that they had crashed “the terrifying quiet.” She must have felt like time was suspended in space. The lack of answers. The ambiguity. The hope. The fear. All of it. After Anthony died, she left ABC News to write what became What Remains, which, let me tell you—the topic is fascinating on its own, but the writing? The writing is unmatched. It, not surprisingly, became a New York Times bestseller upon its release, and we’re talking all about it today.

When it comes to dream I’d Rather Be Reading guests—I’m talking about names at the top of the vision board—Emily Giffin would be right there at the apex. Yes, this is a nonfiction books podcast, but I do read fiction from time to time, and one fiction author whose books I never miss is Emily Giffin, my No. 1 favorite fiction writer of all time. I actually met Emily at a book signing in the summer of 2016 in Nashville—at Draper James, Reese Witherspoon’s boutique—and Emily changed my life. At that time, I was freelance writing some, but hadn’t yet taken the leap to become a full-time writer. During the book signing, I mentioned something about wanting to be a writer to Emily, and even though lines at book signings move pretty quickly, she took a moment to give me words of wisdom I never forgot—and signed my book and told me to not give up and to keep writing. The next year, 2017, I became a full-time writer, and am now a senior editor at a major fashion magazine as we speak here in 2024. It’s really incredible what one inspiring encounter can do—and Emily, I loved you before meeting you in 2016, and I loved you even more after. Actually, I’ll get to see Emily again in person this week, at a book signing in Atlanta for Emily’s latest, The Summer Pact, her twelfth novel—which is the book we’re talking about on the show today. The title of the book is so powerful, and not at all what I was expecting. Emily’s latest is full of so many plot twists, and, while many of her books focus on love and romance, the crux of this book is friendship—although, don’t get me wrong, there’s still definitely some love and romance in here. As I tell Emily in our conversation, I think The Summer Pact is her bravest and most courageous work; she tackles some heavy-hitting topics here, topics she’s never tackled before in any of her books prior. In this book we meet Lainey, Tyson, Summer, and Hannah, who all arrive at college from completely different worlds. They soon become a tight group of friends, but, as graduation nears, tragedy strikes, and they make a promise to one another in that moment to always be there for each other, no matter how much distance or circumstance separates them. Then, a decade later, life turns upside down for one of our characters. She calls in her closest friends, who are all in the midst of their own crossroads. But they made a promise, and they all come together to embark on a shared journey of self-discovery, forgiveness, and acceptance, with, as I said, so many twists and turns along the way, including a trip to Capri, Italy, which has risen to the top of my travel bucket list. Just like I had a different career before I became a full-time writer, so did Emily—after graduating from Wake Forest and the University of Virginia School of Law, Emily was a practicing attorney for several years before moving to London to write full-time. Since then, 12 novels followed—Something Borrowed, which was turned into a feature film with Ginnifer Goodwin and Kate Hudson; Something Blue; Baby Proof; Love the One You’re With; Heart of the Matter; Where We Belong; The One and Only; First Comes Love; All We Ever Wanted; The Lies That Bind; Meant to Be; and, now, The Summer Pact. I am such a fan, and I can’t wait for you to hear our conversation.

Today, we’re talking about travel tips and tricks and tales with a fascinating person to tackle the topic with—none other than Gary Janetti, whose new book We Are Experiencing a Slight Delay: Tips, Tales, Travels is out July 9. On the 1 percent chance you don’t know the hilarious Gary Janetti, allow me to introduce you: Gary is a writer, producer, and actor who has written for Family Guy and was an executive producer on Will and Grace. He also produced the satire animated sitcom The Prince, about Prince George, for HBO Max; in addition to producing, he also provided the voice of Prince George. Gary has written two books prior to We Are Experiencing a Slight Delay—Start Without Me (I’ll Be There in a Minute) and Do You Mind If I Cancel? (Things That Still Annoy Me), and both were bestsellers. I found Gary years and years ago through his Instagram page, which specifically uses a satirical characterization of Prince George as his imagined and often totally catty responses to news items about other members of the British royal family. Gary took that success on Instagram and turned it into The Prince. Gary is married to fashion stylist and television personality Brad Goreski, and, naturally, Brad shows up frequently in We Are Experiencing a Slight Delay, which takes us inside Gary’s travels all around the world. This new book talks about the absurdity and glory of travel, taking us from an Italian spa to the Orient Express to Venice and London and Mykonos and Australia and a family cruise on the Queen Mary 2, just for starters. In addition to telling stories from his trips, Gary also gives a ton of practical advice on all aspects of being a traveler, from packing, suggestions on how to get upgrades, and his restaurant and hotel recommendations in his favorite cities. In our conversation today, Gary talks to us about how to combat jet lag, his top tips for packing, what’s worth a splurge while traveling, solo travel, and so much more.

As our series honoring the tragic plane crash that killed John F. Kennedy Jr., Carolyn Bessette-Kennedy, and Lauren Bessette continues in the leadup to the 25-year anniversary of the crash on July 16, I’m so happy to welcome William D. Cohan to the show, who wrote a book not just about his friend from Andover, John, but also about three other friends from the prep school that lost their lives far too soon. This is such an interesting concept for a book—in his book Four Friends: Promising Lives Cut Short, which came out in 2019, William introduces us to four of his friends from boarding school who all died far, far too soon. One of them is John, who we spend the bulk of today’s episode talking about, but we also meet Jack Berman, the child of impoverished Holocaust survivors, who achieves the American dream—only to have his life ended in a senseless act of violence. Then we have Will Daniel, the grandson of President Harry Truman and the son of the managing editor of The New York Times, who does everything to escape a family legacy he’s ultimately trapped by. He dies tragically, as does Harry Bull, who—like John would as well—takes an inexplicable and devastating risk on a beautiful summer day that ultimately ends his life. Even the story of John—who, of course, we all think we know—is told through a new lens in this book. This book will make you appreciate life and realize how very, very fragile it really is. All of these men met at Andover, the most elite of American boarding schools, and went on to forge lives for themselves, lives that, as William writes, were “ended just as they were getting going.” This book gives us a glimpse into John in his Andover years, specifically, and William writes about what it was like to know a young John, what it was like to meet Mrs. Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis, and so much insight into John, who lost his life far too soon as just 38 years old.

William D. Cohan is a journalist perhaps most known for covering Wall Street and high finance; he’s written for Vanity Fair as a special correspondent and writes regularly for The New York Times, The Financial Times, The Atlantic, The Washington Post, and Fortune, and is an on-air contributor for CNBC. He’s also written other bestselling books, like The Last Tycoons and House of Cards: A Tale of Hubris and Wretched Excess on Wall Street, Money and Power: How Goldman Sachs Came to Rule the World, The Price of Silence (which is about the Duke lacrosse scandal that gripped the nation), and Why Wall Street Matters. Since Four Friends came out in 2019, he has published the 2022 book Power Failure: The Rise and Fall of an American Icon about the General Electric Company. He was a senior Wall Street M&A investment banker for 17 years and also appears regularly on MSNBC, CNN, BBC, and Bloomberg TV, where he is a contributing editor. I enjoyed my conversation with him so much, and I know you will enjoy it, too.

Hi listeners—please be advised that this episode is true crime in nature and contains graphic descriptions of a violent crime. If this may be triggering for you, please skip this episode, and we’ll see you back in your feed later this week. Take care of yourselves.

We have spoken on I’d Rather Be Reading before about the horrendous quadruple homicide that took place in Moscow, Idaho, in November 2022, where four University of Idaho students were viciously murdered—brutally stabbed to death with a military style knife—while they slept in their off-campus home. Kaylee Goncalves, Madison Mogen, Xana Kernodle, and Ethan Chapin senselessly lost their lives on November 13, 2022, and while there has been an arrest made for their deaths, Bryan Kohberger, the accused, has not yet gone to trial. At the crime scene, 1122 King Road, there was no sign of forced entry or damage inside the home. Nothing appeared to be missing. The victims were stabbed multiple times with fatal wounds in the chest and upper body with a large knife. At least one victim had defensive wounds on her hands, and no murder weapon has ever been found. Kohberger was arrested on December 30, 2022, in Pennsylvania; the death penalty is currently being sought in his case, which likely won’t go to trial until next year. He was arrested on four counts of first-degree murder and one felony count of burglary; he pled not guilty to all charges.

Today on the show we have who I consider to be the foremost expert on the case—Howard Blum, who has written a new book, When the Night Comes Falling: A Requiem for the Idaho Student Murders, which came out June 25. Howard’s book, interestingly, is bookended with the stories of two fathers—the book opens being told through the eyes of Bryan Kohberger’s father, Michael, and closes with Steve Goncalves, Kaylee’s father. The level of detail in When the Night Comes Falling is remarkable and heartbreaking, and Howard has a theory about who the target of the crime was—and it’s not who many have speculated it to be all along. In this episode, Howard and I talk about the two surviving roommates and their puzzling actions on that November 13, about Kohberger’s trial and when it’s expected to finally take place, about whether Howard thinks, as I do, that they tore down 1122 King Road—the site of the murders—too prematurely, and so much more. This is a case that haunts me and haunts so many others, I know—many of us remember being carefree college students, and to think of our lives so savagely being cut short as they were really just beginning is tragic and devastating. I know we all want justice for Kaylee, Maddie, Xana, and Ethan, and I hope we find it.

Let me tell you about the dynamic Howard Blum: he is a contributing editor at Vanity Fair, a frequent contributor to Air Mail (which is where I found his work), a former reporter for both The Village Voice and The New York Times, and the author of several nonfiction books, including the New York Times bestseller American Lightning, about the October 1, 1910 bombing of the Los Angeles Times building by union members. Several of his books are bestsellers, actually, and I have no doubt that When the Night Comes Falling will be, too. He earned two Pulitzer Prize nominations while working at The New York Times and has also been nominated for a Pulitzer for his coverage of the Idaho student murders. I can’t imagine that he won’t eventually win a Pulitzer for his coverage in this space. When the Night Comes Falling is the definitive and inside story of this horrific crime, which Howard has covered from the very beginning.

As we continue our series on John F. Kennedy Jr., Carolyn Bessette-Kennedy, and Lauren Bessette to honor the 25-year anniversary of their tragic deaths in a July 16, 1999, plane crash, we are going to be talking to people that knew the victims—and I truly want to thank each and every one of them for their courage in talking about them. As I told each of my guests in our pre-show, I know that, to them, these aren’t just celebrities—these are real people and real friends who they loved and lost, and I am so thankful that they all, first of all, shared their stories in the pages of a book, and then, later, with me on this show. Thank you all for having conversations with me.

Today on the show we have Dr. Steven M. Gillon, author of the 2019 book America’s Reluctant Prince: The Life of John F. Kennedy Jr. Dr. Gillon is a leading historian and scholar who was also a close friend of John’s, and I ask him what it is like to examine John from both a historic lens and a deeply personal lens in this book. In America’s Reluctant Prince—which is a great title, by the way—he not only shares his own experience, but also shares exclusive interviews and information from previously classified documents about John’s life, from before his birth until the day he died 25 years ago, a full picture of, as the book puts it, John’s “complicated and rich life.” Dr. Gillon is the scholar-in-residence at the History Channel, a professor of history at the University of Oklahoma, and senior faculty fellow at the Miller Center for the Study of the Presidency at the University of Virginia. Before his current academic appointment, he spent nine years teaching history at Yale and three years at Oxford. He is one of the nation’s leading experts in modern American history and politics, and his articles have appeared not just in academic journals but also in outlets like The Boston Globe, The Los Angeles Times, The New York Daily News, and The Chicago Tribune. Over the past decade, Dr. Gillon has hosted a number of shows on the History Channel and has also served as the main narrator and executive producer for a number of History Channel and A&E documentary specials, including many about the Kennedy family; he also served as the chief consultant on the History Channel’s eight-hour series, The Presidents. Dr. Gillon frequently contributes to HuffPost and has appeared on Today, Good Morning America, CNN, MSNBC, and Fox News as a commentator and expert on issues related to modern American history, and has written or edited nearly a dozen books, including The Pact: Bill Clinton, Newt Gingrich, and the Rivalry That Defined a Generation and the book we are discussing today, about his dear friend John, who he met while at Brown—they met when Dr. Gillon gave a lecture to a class that JFK Jr. was taking about none other than John’s father, President John F. Kennedy. What a way to meet and begin a friendship!

I still remember exactly where I was on Saturday, July 17, 1999, when the news bulletin flashed across the screen that the small plane carrying John F. Kennedy Jr., his wife Carolyn, and her sister Lauren was missing. The three had flown out of New Jersey’s Essex County Airport the night before, Friday, July 16, in John’s Piper Saratoga plane, headed for Martha’s Vineyard, where they were to drop off Lauren and then go on to Hyannis Port, Massachusetts, where John and Carolyn were due to attend the wedding of cousin Rory Kennedy the next day. But they never made it there, and their plane crashed into the dark waters of the Atlantic Ocean, killing all three passengers instantly. John was 38 years old, Lauren was 35, and Carolyn, just 33 years old.

For our third series on I’d Rather Be Reading, we are focusing on John, Carolyn, and Lauren ahead of the 25-year anniversary of their tragic deaths on July 16. To kickstart our series we have the brilliant biographer Christopher Andersen, who has written 35 books, many of them bestsellers, and two of them about JFK Jr. specifically. Christopher is our guest today to provide context to the landscape of John’s life in 1999; we will later talk to many people who knew John and Carolyn, but to lay the groundwork for those conversations, I thought Christopher would be the perfect person. He has worked at Time and later as a senior editor at People; he has also written for The New York Times, Vanity Fair, Life, and The New York Daily News. He has appeared on nearly every media outlet you can think of discussing culture, and has written many, many books on the Kennedys, the royal family, Katharine Hepburn, Madonna, Mick Jagger, Michael Jackson, the Clintons, the Bushes, the Obamas, Barbra Streisand, and so many more. Today, we’re focusing on two of his books: The Day John Died, released in 2000, and The Good Son: JFK. Jr. and the Mother He Loved, which came out in 2014. Both are fantastic, and I’m excited to kick our series off today and for you to hear from Christopher.

All by Christopher Andersen:

This conversation today with my new friend Glynnis MacNicol is so empowering, as is her latest book, I’m Mostly Here to Enjoy Myself: One Woman’s Pursuit of Pleasure in Paris, which came out June 11. In Glynnis’ latest memoir, she takes us to Paris during the pandemic—a Paris she calls “quiet Paris”—where, because of COVID, there’s no tourists coming in, and because it’s August, all of the Parisian locals are headed out. It was a magical experience, and Glynnis kind of had the city to herself. In this book and in our conversation today we dissect why it’s still so taboo for women to want to experience pleasure—which Glynnis does during this season in her life, leaning into, as she writes, “the audacity of being selfish.” She writes in the book that “The thing women fantasize about most is freedom”; we talk about that in our conversation today, and I was struck by Glynnis’ ability to so vividly make her reader feel as though they were right alongside her in Paris, experiencing all the city has to offer in a very unique time. In this book, Glynnis writes about the way society regards women over 40; she will turn 50 in early September, and she writes that when you’re a woman of a “certain age,” you are only promised that everything will get worse—but what if everything you’ve been told is a lie? After Glynnis—who, at the time, was 46 and unmarried with no children—spent 18 months in isolation, from March 2020 to August 2021 as the pandemic raged on, this memoir sees her break out of her tiny Manhattan apartment and across the Atlantic to Paris; what follows is, as the book reads, a decadent, joyful, unexpected journey into one woman’s pursuit of radical enjoyment, with her weeks filled with food and friendship and, yes, sex. Glynnis also write the 2018 memoir No One Tells You This about turning 40 and also created and hosted the podcast Wilder: A Reckoning with the Legacy of Laura Ingalls Wilder; she’s written everywhere from The New York Times to The Guardian, The Cut, Town & Country, The Daily Beast, Elle, and The New York Daily News, among others. I can’t wait for you to hear what she has to say.

There are so many books coming out this month about rethinking women and the workplace—specifically by former magazine editors, which, as a magazine editor, I’m really into. Out today is one of the best books I’ve read in a long time, Samhita Mukhopadhyay’s powerful The Myth of Making It: A Workplace Reckoning, which opens with a beautiful epigraph from Toni Morrison that reads “You are not the work you do; you are the person you are.” So many of us have bought into, as Samhita calls it, the myth of making it—as she writes, our definitions of success are myths, and seductive ones, at that. She writes in the book that we have a collective responsibility to re-imagine work as we know it, and she advocates for a liberated workplace that pays fairly, recognizes our values, and gives people access to the resources they need. The book traces the origins of, basically, how we’ve been getting it all wrong all of these years—I especially enjoyed the rethinking of Helen Gurley Brown, former editor-in-chief at Cosmopolitan and author of Sex and the Single Girl, as well as rethinking Lean In and Girlboss and hustle culture. Samhita writes about how millions of us “in the past decade—and especially during and after the pandemic—have looked at their lives and said, ‘What the fuck?’ Why are we working all the time to make less than our male counterparts? Why are we doing most of the childcare, even when our partnerships are ‘equal’? Why have we sacrificed so much of our personal happiness to be driven by these undefined measures of success? Why were we spending more time with our coworkers than with anyone else in our lives? Why are we tired all the time?” She adds, “The way we work has become untenable, both personally and globally. We are craving something more and something better,” and she adds, of her rock bottom while executive editor at a major fashion magazine, “all I could think was, This is not normal. There must be a better way. My hope is, together, we can find it.” In this book and in this conversation, Samhita discusses the end of the hustle, Anna Wintour, burnout, working moms, and so much more. Samhita is the former executive editor of Teen Vogue and former executive editor at Feministing. As a writer, her work has appeared in New York Magazine, The Cut, Vanity Fair, Vogue, The Atlantic Monthly, and Jezebel. Let’s get into our conversation.

You may not know the name Judith Jones, but you’ve certainly felt this dynamic woman’s impact and influence on culture. Judith Jones was the editor behind books like The Diary of Anne Frank and Mastering the Art of French Cooking by Julia Child; she was also behind authors like Sylvia Plath, John Updike, Langston Hughes, Sharon Olds, and so many others. Her work, as our guest today writes in her new book, was “unrivaled in the industry.” Book editors are kind of shadow figures—they’re behind-the-scenes, unsung heroes, who, as Sara B. Franklin writes in her book The Editor: How Judith Jones Shaped Culture in America, which came out on May 28, are people who “work in the service of their authors, not themselves, and their touch is meant to be difficult, if not impossible, for readers to see”—a bit of an invisible hand, if you will. Judith Jones rose through the ranks of publishing when it was very much an industry still dominated by men; one of her gifts was the ability to see talent in women writers, especially women writers many had overlooked. It’s hard to believe that, for example, publishers weren’t chomping at the bit for the works of Anne Frank or Julia Child, but they weren’t; it was Judith who saw their books through to the finish line. She is most associated with cookbooks, and Sara writes that Judith may never have fully gotten the respect she so deserved because “books about food were (and to some extent still are) treated with an air of condescension by the literary world.” Sara and I talk about that on the show today, as well as topics like Judith’s portrayal in the 2009 Nora Ephron film Julie & Julia—which Judith didn’t like so much—and some of Judith’s misses, like with the aforementioned Sylvia Plath and The Bell Jar. Through Sara’s book, Judith emerges from the shadows to the spotlight—the amount of passion and dedication Sara put into this bestselling book is remarkable. I can’t wait for you to meet Sara and, through her, meet Judith. A little about Sara: she is a writer, teacher, and oral historian who teaches courses on food, writing, embodied culture, and oral history at NYU’s Gallatin School of Individualized Study. In addition to writing The Editor, she also edited Edna Lewis, co-authored The Phenicia Diner Cookbook, and holds a PhD in food studies from NYU and studied documentary storytelling at both the Duke Center for Documentary Studies and the Salt Institute for Documentary Studies. Take a listen to our conversation.

Alzheimer’s and finding a cure for it is a cause I am deeply passionate about; we have spoken about it on the show many times before. I couldn’t be more thrilled to bring you today’s guest, Dr. Heather Sandison, who is here to talk to us about her brand-new book Reversing Alzheimer’s: The New Toolkit to Improve Cognition and Protect Brain Health, which came out June 11. This book is a much-needed exploration of this awful disease, and how both patients and their caregivers can take back control. There are currently 6.5 million Americans alone living with Alzheimer’s, and that number only grows. As Dr. Sandison writes, the urgency for a solution has never been greater, and this book helps us find one. Dr. Sandison is at the forefront of dementia care and research. She is both the founder of Solcere Health Clinic (which is San Diego’s premier brain optimization clinic) and also Marama, the first residential memory care facility to have the goal and aim of returning cognitively declined residents back to independent living. She sees up close and personal every single day what Alzheimer’s and dementia looks like, and she’s doing something about both preventing it and reversing it. The main takeaway that I got from Reversing Alzheimer’s was that there is hope, and that we have more power to fight back against this disease than we previously thought we did. There is a growing body of evidence that shows that implementing a handful of strategies can improve cognition and quality of life in dementia patients, and this book lays out this customizable and doable approach so that work can begin immediately in that effort. If you are looking to fortify your brain health against cognitive decline, implement lifestyle changes that can reverse the effects of Alzheimer’s, transform your environment to support cognitive wellness, and understand options for brain health to fit any budget—this book is for you. This book, for anyone who has experienced Alzheimer’s up close, is a big exhale; Dr. Sandison wants a future where Alzheimer’s is not a terminal diagnosis, but a reversible condition, a future free of the affliction of this disease. I think you, like me, will find hope in these pages and in this conversation. Dr. Sandison is a renowned neuropathic doctor specializing in neurocognitive medicine and is also the primary author of the peer-reviewed research “Observed Improvement in Cognition During a Personalized Lifestyle Intervention in People with Cognitive Decline,” which was published in the Journal of Alzheimer’s Disease last August. She also hosts the annual online Reverse Alzheimer’s Summit, where she shares cutting-edge insight into what is possible for those suffering with dementia. Dr. Sandison is the doctor I wish my family had when my grandparents were suffering with dementia, but one that I’m also so glad is here now with the mission of making dementia rare and optional, and to shatter common misconceptions about Alzheimer’s and share what she has learned about keeping our brains sharp, no matter our age.

I’m really excited to bring you today’s conversation with Erika Ayers Badan, who you might know as the woman formerly known as Erika Nardini. (Erika got married, and that explains the name change.) Erika is perhaps most well-known as not just the first female CEO of Barstool Sports, but the first CEO of Barstool Sports, period. If you’re not familiar with Barstool somehow, it’s a sports and pop culture blog that also has podcasts and videos under its umbrella—it’s not afraid to be controversial and shake the industry up, and I think maybe the best word to describe the company is chaotic. Intentionally chaotic. Erika was extremely successful at Barstool, which grew to more than 5 billion monthly video views and 225 million followers under her leadership and was valued at $550 million. During her time at Barstool, Erika referred to herself, very tongue-in-cheek, as a “token CEO,” not only the rare female employee but, again, the CEO of a very male-dominated culture. Not only has Erika experienced ample professional success—and I’ll talk more about that in a moment—but she is someone who clearly just loves to work. She loves what she does. She is invigorated and energized by it, and I relate to that, because I am the same way. Erika’s first book is out today, June 11, and is called Nobody Cares About Your Career: Why Failure Is Good, the Great Ones Play Hurt, and Other Hard Truths, and it is basically a career manual for women and men on how to get it done and have a career that means something. It’s advice from someone who is firmly in the arena; it’s real and raw, tell it to you straight—much like Erika herself. There’s more advice in this book than I could ever give in this episode—it’s page after page of it—and this book is all-encompassing; it really is a career guide I’ll keep with me and return to and return to, again and again. It’s a playbook for success by somebody who has found it. Erika was CEO at Barstool from 2016 until earlier this year, January to be exact; she led the company from 12 employees to over 300 employees, and saw it become a national powerhouse under her leadership. Prior to joining Barstool, Erika held leadership positions at Microsoft, AOL, Demand Media, and Yahoo, and is now, as of April of this year, CEO at Food52, a culinary, lifestyle, and homeware company. One of my favorite aspects of Erika’s philosophy is her fail-always mindset—she embraces failure and doesn’t run from it or shy away from it. As she writes, “Falling down and getting back up—awkwardly at first, but, over time, more gracefully—is what has made my career successful.” There’s a ton of good nuggets here, and I can’t wait for you to read this book and hear our conversation.

Just when you think you know everything there is to know about the White House, here comes Corey Mead and his book The Hidden History of the White House: Power Struggles, Scandals, and Defining Moments, which came out June 4. This book is presented by the hit podcast “American History Tellers,” and it reveals behind-the-scenes stories of some of the most dramatic events in American history, told from right inside the White House where they happened. Talk about “if these walls could talk”—the White House has been the soundstage for some of the most climactic moments in American history, and its walls have witnessed history-making decisions, power struggles, scandals, and so many stories from the First Family, their guests, and the staff at the White House. Just some of the topics delved into were Andrew Jackson’s disastrous inauguration; Woodrow Wilson’s stroke and his second wife Edith’s basically shadow presidency as his administration came to a close; Dolley Madison’s courageous act when the White House was set aflame in 1814; when U.K. Prime Minister Winston Churchill visited the White House and plotted, with FDR, plans to defeat Germany; and the decision by Barack Obama to green-light the Navy SEAL raid that ultimately killed Osama bin Ladin. I talk about this with Corey, but maybe one of the most fascinating parts to me about the book—and I wasn’t expecting this—was the actual construction of the White House itself and its subsequent renovations, especially the 1948 Truman renovation, which we talk about on the show today. The book is broken into three parts: part one, Laying the Foundation; part two, The People’s House; and part three, Halls of Power—each as fascinating as the last. As Corey writes in the book, “Every corner and hallway has a tale to tell,” and there’s so many of those tales in this book. We have Corey Mead on the show today, the author of this great book and also an associate professor of English at Baruch College, City University of New York. In addition to this book, Corey is also the author of Angelic Music: The Story of Benjamin Franklin’s Glass Armonica and War Play: Video Games and the Future of Armed Conflict. You can also find his work everywhere from Time to Salon, The Daily Beast, and numerous literary journals, and I know you’ll enjoy this conversation.

P.S.: The Rebecca Boggs Roberts episode we mention in this conversation about First Lady Edith Wilson is from season 7, episode 6!

I’m pulling out the champagne and raising a glass to I’d Rather Be Reading, my passion project and the work of my life, a show that celebrates nonfiction books (and, occasionally, some fiction books and children’s books and cookbooks, too) which aired its first episode three years ago today, on June 7, 2021. Happy three-year anniversary, listeners! Our very first episode on the show was a conversation with Lisa Napoli about her book Susan, Linda, Nina, and Cokie: The Extraordinary Story of the Founding Mothers of NPR, about, at its core, women in journalism. As such, to tie it all together with a bow today, our anniversary special features a trailblazing woman in journalism: the dynamic Lynn Povich. Simply put, my career would not exist without Lynn’s courage. Let’s go back in time to the early 1970s. Lynn was working at Newsweek, and at the time, that magazine, like others at the time as well, only hired men as writers. Women did the researching and reporting, but the men got the byline. Lynn writes in her 2012 book The Good Girls Revolt: How the Women of Newsweek Sued Their Bosses and Changed the Workplace that Newsweek had a serious problem—sexism—and that, in her words, “we all accepted it—until we didn’t.” Lynn and a group of 46 other women ultimately sued the magazine for sex discrimination, becoming the first women in the media to sue for sex discrimination and taking part in the first female class action suit. Lynn’s book, Good Girls Revolt, is the first full account of the Newsweek suit, which, by the way, was later turned into a series on Amazon Prime that I loved. Lynn writes that, prior to the lawsuit, “I don’t think it occurred to many of us that we could actually change the system” and continues “in 1970 we challenged the system and changed the conversation in the news media for the women who participated in the lawsuits. The struggle rerouted our lives and bonded us and gave many of us opportunities.” Lynn went on to become Newsweek’s first female senior editor in 1975 and had a 25-year career at the magazine; she left it in 1991 and has since become editor-in-chief of Working Woman magazine and managing editor and senior executive producer for MSNBC.com. Lynn is from a famed journalism family, and she edited a book of columns by her father, renowned Washington Post sports journalist Shirley Povich called All Those Mornings…At the Post; her brother, by the way, is Maury Povich, and her sister-in-law is Connie Chung. I’d love to be at that family dinner table! Lynn’s husband is also a journalist; his name is Stephen Shepard, and he is the former editor-in-chief of Business Week and founding dean of the graduate school of journalism of the City University of New York. There’s no better person I could think of to mark this important day for our show than Lynn Povich, and I’m excited for you to hear from her today.

When I invited Garrett M. Graff on the show, I did so to chat about his incredible book The Only Plane in the Sky: An Oral History of 9/11, which came out in 2019. What I didn’t realize was that, by happenstance, Garrett had another oral history coming out in June, released two days before the eightieth anniversary of D-Day, which is today, June 6. I don’t feel like I have to explain the attacks on the United States on September 11, 2001, but just in case you don’t remember the details of D-Day, on June 6, 1944, the invasion of the beaches at Normandy in northern France by troops from the United States, the United Kingdom, Canada, and other countries during World War II is one of the most important days in world history; historians often refer to D-Day as the beginning of the end of World War II. At the time, the D-Day invasion was the largest naval, air, and land operation in history, and about 326,000 troops, more than 50,000 vehicles, and some 100,000 tons of equipment had landed. By August 1944, two months later, all of northern France had been liberated, and in the spring of 1945, the Allies defeated the Germans and World War II, blessedly, was over. Today, June 6, 2024, matters, because it’s likely the last anniversary that we will still have any living veterans from that day here with us, as the Greatest Generation has all but left us. Before I go any further, I want to honor those who served on D-Day and in World War II and in any conflict; I also want to honor the lives lost on September 11, 2001. It makes me emotional to think of the debt of gratitude we owe those who served and those who serve, present day. Thank you seems insufficient, but I offer it, nonetheless. Garrett M. Graff, our guest today, has mastered the art of the oral history, a unique way to unpack history that makes it very focused on the human element. Though we do talk about Garrett’s latest book about D-Day, When the Sea Came Alive: An Oral History of D-Day, which came out this past Tuesday, June 4, I’d say the bulk of our conversation is about September 11 and The Only Plane in the Sky, which really is such a vivid human portrait of that tragedy. It is a 360-degree view of the day, a comprehensive, full account of one of the worst days in American history. Garrett has spent nearly two decades covering politics, technology, and national security and is the former editor of Politico. He’s a contributor to CNN and Wired and has written for outlets like Esquire, Rolling Stone, The Washington Post, The Wall Street Journal, and The New York Times; he also serves as the director of the cyber initiative at the Aspen Institute. In addition to the two aforementioned books, he’s also written The First Campaign: Globalization, the Web, and the Race for the White House, which examined the role of technology in the 2008 presidential race; The Threat Matrix, about the FBI; Raven Rock, about the government’s Cold War Doomsday plans; and the New York Times bestseller Watergate, which was a finalist for the Pulitzer Prize in History. The Only Plane in the Sky was also a New York Times bestseller, by the way, and I have no doubt that When the Sea Came Alive will be, as well. He taught at Georgetown for seven years, including courses on journalism and technology, and he’s appeared everywhere from Good Morning America to The Today Show, CBS This Morning, the History Channel, the BBC, Al Jazeera English, and more. He also hosts the podcast “Long Shadow,” an eight-episode series about the lingering questions of 9/11. In this episode, Garrett and talk about these two powerful days in history, ones that should never be forgotten from memory.

All by Garrett M. Graff:

I wasn’t expecting, through Jennifer Romolini’s memoir Ambition Monster, to feel as seen as I was. About workaholism. Ambition addiction. Achievement addiction. Why I am that way. Why I experienced debilitating burnout, which, if you’ve ever experienced true burnout, you know what I mean when I say it is truly debilitating. And then, from the book to this conversation—I don’t like to play favorites, but this conversation has to rank up there with my absolute favorite episodes of this show’s 215 or so episodes. It felt more like a therapy session than an interview. Whatever you want to call it—hustle culture, Girl Boss-ing it, I heard a new term this week actually called “grindset” instead of “mindset”—whatever you want to call it, I know I’m not the only one influenced and affected by it. Jennifer’s book is about what happens when ambition—which certainly is a good thing—turns bad. What happens when workaholism sneaks in, and how this actually relates to childhood trauma. What happens when you get everything you’ve ever dreamed of, and then realize that it’s not enough to fill that hole inside you. And, at last, filling that hole with what is really sustaining, and it’s not work. Achievement addiction and ambition addiction and constantly trying to prove yourself, that addiction—it may not be drugs or booze or gambling or shopping, but it’s an addiction, nonetheless, and nothing done to excess like that is good for you. Jennifer raced up the professional ladder and reached the apex of success: she had a high-profile, C-suite dream job, and even traveled around the country giving speeches on how to make it and what it feels like to have made it. Beyond that, she had a handsome husband, a beautiful child, but, as the book puts it, “beneath this polished surface was a powder keg of unresolved trauma and chronic overwork. It was all about to blow.” This book will make you rethink the way we work, and rethink ambition on the whole. Jennifer co-hosts the podcast “Everything Is Fine,” which examines life for women over 40, with Lucky magazine founding editor Kim France (the show is one of my all-time favorites, though I’m not quite 40); she’s also the author of Weird in a World That’s Not: A Career Guide for Misfits, Fuckups, and Failures, and her work has appeared in outlets like The New York Times, Elle, Fast Company, Vogue, and more. She was a magazine editor in the 2000s, won awards for websites she edited in the 2010s, was a former deputy editor at Lucky alongside Kim, and was also the former Chief Content Officer of ShondaLand.com (as in, yes, the one and only Shonda Rhimes), Vice President of Content for Zooey Deschanel’s HelloGiggles, a writer, speaker, and digital media consultant who likes talking and thinking about women and work. In 2019, Jennifer was asked to be one of 10 authors tasked with creating The New York Times’ “Working Women’s Handbook,” so, yeah, she knows a little bit about women and work. Ambition Monster examines the lies women were and are sold about work and one of my least favorite three-word combination ever, “having it all,” and before we get into it, I should warn you that there is some ample cursing in this episode, as there tends to be when a subject resonates so close to home.

Welcome back to I’d Rather Be Reading—both the start of season 12 and, later this week, our three-year anniversary! We’ve got so much good in store this season, and I’m thrilled, as ever, to be back with you after one long week of a hiatus. Today on the show we have Julie Satow, who is here to chat with me about her latest book, When Women Ran Fifth Avenue: Glamour and Power at the Dawn of American Fashion, which is out June 4. This book and this conversation take us back to the twentieth century department store, a place where women—whether you worked at the department store or were shopping there—could stake out newfound independence, whether you were in New York City or on Main Street USA. Back in the 1930s and going forward to the 1960s, women didn’t rule many places—but they ruled the American department store. Not only is the American department store of those years examined—it’s a whole world unto itself inside its walls—but it’s a story told through the eyes of three women who rose to the top of the department store universe: Hortense Odlum of Bonwit Teller, who came to her husband’s department store as a housewife tasked with attracting more shoppers like herself in the 1930s—and wound up running the company; then we have Dorothy Shaver of Lord & Taylor, who was a champion of American designers during World War II, before which U.S. fashions were almost completely copies of Parisian looks. Dorothy, by the way, was the first businesswoman to earn a $1 million salary. Then, in the 1960s, Geraldine Stutz of Henri Bendel modernized the department store and became an eternal trendsetter in the space. Not only did these women advance their own careers, but they opened doors for all women, as well. We’ve got style, glamour, women’s empowerment, drama, trade secrets, wealth—it’s the department store in all its glitz, decadence, and fun, and looks closely at the women who made the beautifully curated world of the twentieth century department store operate and opened doors for working women everywhere. I am so thankful that, through this book, Julie is ensuring that these three women aren’t lost to history; their fingerprints are still felt today, in both fashion and business. Here to lead us on this journey is Julie Satow, who also wrote the fantastic book The Plaza: The Secret Life of America’s Most Famous Hotel, which was a huge hit and critically acclaimed. Julie is an award-winning journalist, a regular contributor to The New York Times, and she has also been published in Travel + Leisure and Bloomberg Businessweek and appeared on NPR. Take a listen to our conversation!

Both by Julie Satow:

We have come to our season 11 finale, unbelievably, and to mark the occasion we have the fantastic, dynamic Sunny Hostin here to talk about her latest book, the third novel in her New York Times bestselling Summer Beach series, Summer on Highland Beach, which is out May 28. The best fiction, to me, not only takes me away, but teaches me something—and Summer on Highland Beach did just that. Highland Beach along the Chesapeake Bay is the oldest Black resort community in America and was founded in the late 1800s by the son of Frederick Douglass. It is a secluded beach community of about 100 private homes, and that’s where Sunny’s latest novel takes us to. As has become a trademark of her Summer Beach series, this book celebrates family, friendship, and community, and reminds us both of the importance of the legacies of our collective past but also about finding one’s way in the world in the present. Olivia Jones is the star of the show in this book, and her story continues to be told by Sunny, who is a three-time Emmy Award winner and a co-host of ABC’s popular The View. She is also an attorney and the Senior Legal Correspondent and Analyst for ABC News and the author, of course, of the other two books in the Summer Beach series: Summer on the Bluffs and Summer on Sag Harbor, both of which I inhaled, as well as Summer on Highland Beach. She is also the author of her memoir, I Am These Truths: A Memoir of Identity, Justice, and Living Between Worlds. I wasn’t aware of an HBBC—or a Historically Black Beach Community—until I read Sunny’s Summer Beach series. These communities have flown pretty under the radar until Sunny brought them to life through this trilogy, and this series absolutely uses place and setting as a character, which listeners, you know I love. Summer on Highland Beach closes the Summer Beach series, and I can’t wait for you to hear what Sunny has to say—I found her to be an absolute joy to be with.

All by Sunny Hostin:

One of the most important books written in the last few years is Dr. Katy Milkman’s 2021 book How to Change: The Science of Getting from Where You Are to Where You Want to Be, which focuses on the study of behavior change. This is a groundbreaking book in which Dr. Milkman reveals a proven path that can take you from where you are right now to where you want to be and teaches us that change happens most readily when you understand what’s standing between you and success and tailor your solution to that specific roadblock. Dr. Milkman is a behavioral scientist and professor at The Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania, and this book draws on her original research and the work of her world-renowned scientific collaborators. (The foreword to the book, by the way, was written by another of my favorites, psychologist Dr. Angela Duckworth, author of the fantastic book Grit.) How to Change shares strategic methods for identifying and overcoming common barriers to change, like impulsivity, procrastination, and forgetfulness, and gives us practical tips and tactics backed by science to help us achieve our goals, once and for all. Dr. Milkman has worked with numerous organizations on how to achieve positive change, including Google, the U.S. Department of Defense, Walmart, the White House, and the American Red Cross. Her research is regularly featured by media outlets like The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, and NPR, and she currently co-directs the Behavior Change for Good Initiative at Penn as well as hosts the podcast Choiceology, a popular Charles Schwab show about behavioral economics. Speaking of The New York Times, How to Change was not only a bestseller but also named one of the eight best books for healthy living in 2021 by that outlet. Dr. Milkman is a Princeton and Harvard graduate and, as you’ll hear us talk about, wrote a book that truly changed my life, personally. I can’t wait for you to hear what she has to say.

When it comes to people I am most compelled by, living or dead, right there at the top of the list is Carolyn Bessette-Kennedy. And, actually, one of the parts of Carolyn I am the least compelled by is who she married, even though, trust me, I love John F. Kennedy Jr. separately, all on his own. But, while she became one-half of one of the most famous couples in the world in the 1990s, it’s Carolyn herself that I’m interested in. Carolyn was such a mystery and an enigma during her all too short life; she was elusive, stylish, elegant, graceful, glamorous, and, before Elizabeth Beller’s new book Once Upon a Time: The Captivating Life of Carolyn Bessette-Kennedy, which is out today, May 21, largely unknown. The unrelenting media portrayed Carolyn as an ice queen, a snob—but, as you’ll hear Elizabeth explain today in our conversation, she was anything but. In fact, a word Elizabeth closely associates with Carolyn is compassion—unfailing compassion. Like all of us, Carolyn was multi-layered, and the woman you’ll meet in this conversation and in Elizabeth’s book is, arguably, I think one we’d all like to know, and we’d all like to have as a friend. And her marriage is nowhere near the most fascinating part of her story. Carolyn died at just 33 years old; unbelievably, the 25th anniversary of her death is this upcoming July 16. Because of how private she was and because of a lack of information, Carolyn was incredibly misunderstood and, heretofore, I think we’ve really gotten her all wrong. But, according to those who knew her, she made people feel like they were the only person in the room. She had a timeless style that was minimalist, with a muted color palette—inspired, at least in part, because of her relationship with the paparazzi, which we get into today. Carolyn would be 58 years old today, and I’m so pleased to introduce you to her biographer, Elizabeth Beller. Elizabeth is a writer and journalist specializing in culture, art, and travel with more than 15 years under her belt as a book and story editor. Her work has appeared in Vogue, Travel + Leisure, and The Guardian, and prior to becoming a writer and editor, was a script reader for Miramax and worked for 12 years at Sotheby’s Auction House. In this book, Elizabeth really brings us a comprehensive look at a multifaceted woman who is, in the book’s own words, worthy of our attention regardless of her husband and untimely death.

Welcome to episode three of three in my royal fiction series, which we started with Katharine McGee, continued with Linda Keir, and are finishing with Heather Cocks and Jessica Morgan, authors of both The Royal We and The Heir Affair. I would argue that The Royal We released in 2015—actually kickstarted this trend of royal fiction that continues and continues today. In this book—which is inspired by the love story of Prince William and Kate Middleton—we meet an American girl, Bex Porter, who meets a dreamy guy named Nick while at Oxford, and finds herself accidentally in love with, casually, the heir to the British throne. Interestingly, the American aspect was introduced by Heather and Jessica in 2015, before Prince Harry ever met Meghan Markle the next year, in 2016. In 2020, the follow up to The Royal We, The Heir Affair, was released, and in this book, we find (slight spoiler alert here) Bex adjusting to royal life, including a scandalous secret that turned her wedding to Nick into a nightmare, leaving them in self-imposed exile. Trying so hard to not give spoilers here. In this book we get to know the character of Freddie more, and—you know what, you just need to add these two books to your summer beach bag, and you just need to read the books. Because if I keep going, I’m going to give plot points away, and I don’t want to do that. I am so thrilled to have had the chance to chat with the dynamic Heather and Jessica, who, in addition to writing these two books, are the creators of the unparalleled celebrity fashion blog, Go Fug Yourself, and are known as such as The Fug Girls. In addition to The Royal We and The Heir Affair, they’ve also written two young adult novels, Spoiled and Messy, and have written everywhere from New York Magazine to Vanity Fair to Cosmopolitan, The New York Times, The Washington Post, W, Glamour, and more. One thing we actively and intentionally avoid in this conversation is the real-life happenings of the royal family—so if you’re looking for dish and juice on that, you’ll be disappointed—but you won’t be disappointed in this chat, which is fantastic. In this conversation, we prefer to stay in the fictional world of Bex and Nick and Freddie, and I think you’ll find that you’ll enjoy it there with us. These two women are phenomenal.

One of my absolute new favorite people is Stephanie Harrison, author of the book New Happy: Getting Happiness Right in a World That’s Got It Wrong, which came out this past Tuesday, May 14. This book is being billed as “the definitive guide to happiness” and is packed full of a decade’s worth of research that leads us to a proven path of happiness. Who among us doesn’t want to be happier, and who among us hasn’t struggled with happiness? In this book, Stephanie—who has potentially the coolest job title in the world, happiness expert—walks us through the counterintuitive secrets to happiness and gives us a practical guide to help us all learn how to live a happy life. As Stephanie writes, we all want to be happy—but happiness always seems out of reach. Well, until now anyway. Stephanie draws on hundreds of studies to help us find happiness and makes it clear that it’s not our fault we’re unhappy. See, we’ve as a society been told three damaging lies: that we aren’t good enough, that we need to achieve wealth, fame, and power, and that we need to do it on our own. This is what Stephanie calls “Old Happy,” or our society’s false definition of happiness—and, as you may have noticed, it’s making us absolutely miserable. Now, it’s time for “New Happy,” which includes the truths that you are enough, you have unique and important gifts, and using them to help other people is what will lead to happiness. I also have to make mention here that, in addition to the obviously very powerful words included within, the book is just full of this artwork that is extraordinary, too, that helps explain the concepts. We learn in the book how to unwind “Old Happy,” and firmly step into “New Happy.” Basically, if you’ve ever asked the questions “Who am I, really?” or “When will I be happy?” or “What am I supposed to do with my life?”—this book is for you (so, yeah, everyone). In addition to being a happiness expert, Stephanie is a writer, designer, and speaker, complete with a master’s degree in positive psychology from the University of Pennsylvania. She’s devoted her life to the study of well-being—truly, what a noble pursuit—and her company, The New Happy (which Stephanie founded in 2018) has revolutionized the way people understand and pursue happiness. In addition to this new book, there’s a podcast, a newsletter, videos, and so many resources that reach millions around the world each month, a science-backed philosophy of happiness. Her happiness expertise has been featured everywhere from CNBC to the Harvard Business Review, Fast Company, Forbes, and Architectural Digest, and she is a regular speaker at Fortune 500 companies. Before taking on this happiness work full steam, she was the director of learning at Thrive Global. Speaking of learning, I look forward to you doing just that with Stephanie in this episode.

There is no novel better than a Plum Sykes novel, and I have mentioned on the show what a fan I am of Plum’s work—and of Plum, period, end of story. I have another special fiction pick for you listeners as we’re starting to plan summer beach trips and pool days—Plum’s latest, Wives Like Us, is an absolute must for your summer TBR. It comes out today, May 14, and I tore through it and wanted more of Ian the butler (you’ll hear Plum and I talk about him plenty on the show today). Truly, Plum is one of the ultimate icons of fiction to me. Let’s talk about Wives Like Us before we get into getting to know a bit about Plum herself: this book takes us to the Cotswolds, specifically “The Bottoms,” and introduces us to the luxe life there, specifically the life and the concept of “the Country Princess,” which Plum explains in our chat today. Plum lives in the English countryside, so it’s a world she knows well. The signature of Plum’s novels is that they’re so juicy and dishy and high society-focused—upper crust and rich and glamorous. This is her fourth novel, following Bergdorf Blondes, The Debutante Divorcee, and Party Girls Die in Pearls, which came out in 2016, if I’m not mistaken, so it’s been a moment since I’ve gotten my Plum Sykes novel fix. Let me tell you about her, without further ado. First of all, Plum and her twin sister, Lucy, were the “It Girls” in New York City high society, Plum working at Vogue under Anna Wintour and Lucy at Marie Claire, where, actually, I now work. Plum is a fashion journalist, novelist, and socialite and was born in London and educated at Oxford, and remains a contributing editor at Vogue, where she writes about society, fashion, and Hollywood. She has also written for Vanity Fair. I’m a fan of Plum’s writing and just Plum as a person, and there’s no question that you, too, will fall in love with her after listening to our conversation.

First things first: today’s episode is fantastic, but deals with some really heavy, difficult subject matter. Please be advised, and please take care of yourself and listen as you’re able.

On January 28, 1986, the Space Shuttle Challenger broke apart 73 seconds into flight above the Atlantic Ocean, off the coast of Cape Canaveral, Florida at 11:39 a.m., killing all seven crew members aboard. This marked the first fatal accident involving an American spacecraft while in flight. Not only were the families of all seven crew members watching, but so was the country and the world—the launch was broadcast live, and children across the country in particular were watching thanks to schoolteacher Christa McAuliffe being sent into space that day as a part of the Teacher In Space program. Because of this, media interest was higher than normal, and many children watched in horror as the spacecraft exploded, not understanding, and traumatized.

I want to honor those seven lives lost by naming them here: F. Richard Scobee, commander; Michael J. Smith, pilot; Ronald McNair, mission specialist; Ellison Onizuka, mission specialist; Judith Resnik, mission specialist; Gregory Jarvis, payload specialist; and Christa McAuliffe, payload specialist and teacher. This crew was scheduled to deploy a communications satellite and study Halley’s Comet, but never got the chance; the cause of the explosion was determined to be the failure of the primary and secondary redundant O-ring seals in a joint in the shuttle’s right solid rocket booster—our guest on the show today, Adam Higginbotham, will explain that to us. The record-low temperatures on that January morning of the launch had stiffened the rubber O-rings, reducing their ability to seal the joints. After a three-month search-and recovery operation, the crew compartment, human remains, and many other fragments from the shuttle were recovered from the Atlantic Ocean floor. I talk about this with Adam today, but, while the exact timing of the deaths of the crewmembers is unknown, several crew members are thought to have survived the initial breakup of the Challenger. It is especially difficult, at least for me, to hear Adam talk about this.

As a result of the Challenger disaster, NASA established the Office of Safety, Reliability, and Quality Assurance, as well as other changes focused on safety. In his book Challenger: A True Story of Heroism and Disaster on the Edge of Space, which comes out tomorrow, May 14, Adam Higginbotham tells the story of the Challenger but also the arc from 1967 and the Apollo 1 cabin fire to 2003 and the Columbia disaster, 17 years after the Challenger. This is one of the best books I’ve ever read—full stop. The full story of what happened with the Challenger and why has never been told, until Adam’s book. It is filled with extensive archival research and meticulous, original reporting about this turning point in history, which, as Adam puts it, “forever changed the way America thought of itself and its optimistic view of the future.” Adam is a journalist who is the former U.S. correspondent for The Sunday Telegraph and former editor-in-chief of The Face. He has also served as a contributing writer for The New York Times, The New Yorker, GQ, Smithsonian, and Wired and is also the author of Midnight in Chernobyl: The Untold Story of the World’s Greatest Nuclear Disaster, which came out in 2019. This is a truly harrowing and powerful conversation.