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Bozoma St John is the newest cast member of Real Housewives of Beverly Hills, and she has a take-no-shit approach to life that will motivate you to demand everything you deserve. After working in executive marketing positions for companies like Uber, Netflix, Apple and Pepsi, Boz decided to leave corporate America and do things her own way. She had experienced so much loss in her life that she didn’t want to take a single day for granted. She lost her first daughter after a tough pregnancy, and her husband died of cancer. But Boz is not only working through it, she’s talking about it. In this episode, she talks with Reshma about her life as a corporate girlie, the conversations she had with Housewives producers and what we can all learn from her book “The Urgent Life.”

Follow Bozomo St John on Instagram @badassboz. Her book is called The Urgent Life and her Wig and Hair Care company is called Eve by Boz.

You can follow our host Reshma Saujani @reshmasaujani on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/reshmasaujani/?hl=en

Let us know how you’re doing in midlife! You can submit your story to be included in this show at speakpipe.com/midlife

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To follow along with a transcript, go to lemonadamedia.com/show/ shortly after the air date.

Transcript

SPEAKERS

Reshma Saujani, Bozoma Saint John

Reshma Saujani  00:14

Welcome to My So Called Midlife, a podcast where we figure out how to stop just getting through it and start actually living it. I’m Reshma Saujani, so I’ve been thinking a lot about this word midlife, and you know what? It freaks me out the minute I think about midlife, it’s almost like this time clock pops up that’s moving backwards, and I get this panic of like I’m running out of time. I know that that’s irrational, but I don’t think I’m alone in feeling that way, and that’s why I love our guest today, my friend Bozoma Saint John. She’s the newest cast member of The Real Housewives of Beverly Hills, but I knew her way back when she was one of our board members for Girls Who Code, and we just hit it off. She has had this incredible, impressive career in corporate America. She’s worked everywhere, I’m talking Netflix, Uber, Apple, Pepsi, but one day she woke up and she said, Fuck it, and she retired. Part of that decision was because she didn’t want to live by their rules anymore. She had experienced so much loss already in her life that she had decided she was never going to take a single day for granted. She lost her first daughter after a tough pregnancy, and her husband, her love, died of cancer. That’s a lot of grief for one person to live through in one lifetime. But Boz is not only working through it, she’s talking about it. She wrote an incredible book, The urgent life. She started a wig in hair care business named after her late daughter, Eve Bose is here to share her wisdom with us, and I have learned so much from her about how to just say, Fuck it and live in the moment every single day. So let’s get into it. I miss you. How are you? You better not come to the city again without seeing me.

 

Bozoma Saint John  03:48

I know, right. Let me tell Leo is great.

 

Reshma Saujani  03:52

What grade is she in now?

 

Bozoma Saint John  03:53

She is in 10th grade.

 

Reshma Saujani  03:56

She coding?

 

Bozoma Saint John  03:57

No, she’s not.

 

Reshma Saujani  03:58

You guys, Auntie Reshma.

 

Bozoma Saint John  04:00

You’re right. I do need to, no, but she’s really good. She’s a sports girly who loves makeup.

 

Reshma Saujani  04:10

That’s amazing, right? It’s like, you’re supposed to be what you’re supposed to either be sporty and not like makeup or getting ready, or you could, like, it’s one or the other. And I love it. It’s like, multi dimensional. That’s how women are young girls are That’s exactly right.

 

Bozoma Saint John  04:22

That’s exactly right, yeah.

 

Reshma Saujani  04:23

All right, let’s get started. So, you know, we talk on the show a lot about midlife, and there are people coming like, Yeah, this is like, the best time of my life. Like, every year I get older, it just gets better. And then there’s some people like, I just want to go back to my 20s. Where are you at in this debate?

 

Bozoma Saint John  04:40

Gosh, I’m having a really good time right now in this midlife you know, like I feel totally in my power. And this is, I don’t know, it’s hard for me to say this out loud, because I feel like it might sound unrealistic, but I have. Felt in my power for a long time. I know that now there isn’t a decade where I’m like, Oh man, I wish I had done this differently. Look, I really loved my teens, even I really loved my 20s. I really loved my 30s. I’m loving my 40s, and I’m coming to the end of my 40s here pretty soon, and I’m just like shit. Watch out when I’m 50. Y’all. I mean, you know, so I’m but every decade has felt like its own sort of moment.

 

Reshma Saujani  05:31

Do you think you’re getting more powerful?

 

Bozoma Saint John  05:33

Yes, 100%.

 

Reshma Saujani  05:35

So what’s the hack on that?

 

Bozoma Saint John  05:37

I think part of it is my complete and utter acceptance of who I am, right, that every decade I have felt good in it, but good for different reasons. And I think even the last decade in my 30s, it was just ambition. Ambition, ambition. I was eating everything up. It was just power, because I was racing faster than everybody. And right now I feel more powerful, because, although I’m not racing as hard as I was in my 30s, I am more in control of who I am. You know, this is gonna be an interesting analogy. I work out a lot, right? And a lot of what I am doing now is a lot of balance. You know, as you get older, you need to work more on your balance as you use weights, you know, and my trainer, who I fight with every day.

 

Reshma Saujani  06:30

Because you want you want him to make you do less or more.

 

Bozoma Saint John  06:32

Less, I’m literally like, Jerry, stop it. Like, this is too much. But I one thing he always says to me, which I try to remember in my personal life or in my work life, is he says, control, you know, because, like, when you are holding big weight and you’re trying to balance on one leg or anything, it’s you’re trying to rush through the movement, just so you can get it done. Rush through the reps, you know, okay, you got to get eight done. So you’re like, boom, boom, boom, boom. And what is happening, that’s totally me, yeah, is that you’re you’re wobbling, you’re getting it done now, you’re getting the reps done, but you’re wobbling. And what he always says is control, right? So it means that you might have to slow down a little bit, but the rep is going to be better for you, because you are in control of the weight and in control of your body. And so now I feel more of that control, where it’s like I was racing in my 30s and just getting it, get it. So it was a little wobbly, but I was getting it, so I still got it done, no problem. But now I’m in control.

 

Reshma Saujani  07:40

That’s beautiful, Boz, because when you’re in control, it means you can also enjoy, like, I still feel like I’m in that place in my life where I’m just trying to rush through the next thing, through the next thing, the next thing, and then I’m never present. And especially, you know, when you have kids, you actually have to figure out how you can be present, because you’ll miss everything. And that wisdom and age is supposed to give you more more presence and, I guess, more control. I think that it’s powerful. You know, it’s funny, as you were talking of thinking about a scene in your book, so when you fall in love with Peter, you know, you’re for one culture, he’s from another. And thinking about the scene, when you when you call your father, and you basically say, we’re, we’re moving in together, yeah. And he basically is like, click, you know, I meet and he’s at Peter’s office.

 

Bozoma Saint John  08:30

Yes.

 

Reshma Saujani  08:31

But I was thinking, as you were saying, because I think sometimes we don’t feel in control in our of our lives, especially when we’re children of immigrants. Because you got two masters, you got yourself and you got your parents, but you always had a lot of, I guess, confidence in your own decisions and your choices that you were even able to stand up to immigrant parents, which is hard.

 

Bozoma Saint John  09:00

Hard, very hard yeah, but I think it’s also because I have felt very convicted for a long time about, you know, where I’m supposed to go, what I’m supposed to be doing now, the the I like the word you use hack, you know, it’s like, what’s the hack to that? And the thing is that it’s not always that, like, okay, I know where the road is going or where I’m gonna end up right in that moment when I was telling my father that I’d fallen in love with this white man and that I was gonna move in with him, and he was like, absolutely not. You know, it wasn’t that I knew that, you know this is going to work out. I knew I wanted to marry Peter, if you had asked me, then, is this going to be forever? I probably would have been honest and said, I don’t know, but I know what I want right now, and nothing is going to stop me from getting this right now. And so that is the consistent way that I have been throughout my life, which is that it is actually very difficult for me. You. To think about five years from now, I don’t like thinking about that Reshma like I really don’t. What if God has something different for you? What if you’re not supposed to get to the place where you think you’re supposed to go? Because one thing I can guarantee you is that the dreams that I dreamt in my 20s, I am far surpassing them right now in my own life, I am in awe of where I am. And so if I was to consider what is going to happen five years from now and make plans to get there, I might fall short of what is supposed to be mine.

 

Reshma Saujani  10:40

Or you may not take a risk. The hack is like, live in the moment, figure out what you really want to do right now. And it doesn’t have to be the five year plan. And I think, but, and I think that’s very is opposite of what we tell people, especially women, right? What’s the long term plan? What’s the five year plan? What are you driving towards?

 

Bozoma Saint John  10:58

Yes, and it’s so funny, because I have often these days come back to a saying that, you know, I just think it’s so funny because it’s one of these things that, you know, we say all the time, carpe diem seize the day. You know, we’re always talking about that. And I have never liked that sentence, by the way, because it’s it’s translated wrong. And Carpe Diem doesn’t mean cease the day. Carpe Diem actually means pluck the day. It’s a more intentional taking, wow. So it’s not just like going, boom, get everything. No, pluck the day. And the whole sentence is Carpe Diem, quam, minimum que du la postero, which means pluck the day, trusting as little as possible in the next one. That is how we should be living. Yo, it’s like you pluck the day, intentional taking of things during the day, trusting as little as possible in the next one. So why are you making five year, 10 year plans when you could be plucking this day and taking intentionally what you need?

 

Reshma Saujani  12:13

How is plucking the day related to the urgent life, similar? Right reels like.

 

Bozoma Saint John  12:18

Similar in that I wrote my book about how the tragedies, the grief, the things that came out of left field helped me to become the successful person. So the loss in my life made me feel more urgent about living, and I recognize that that is a very heavy thing to ask of people, because grief is so so so dark, and no one would blame you, and no one would blame me if I were to go into a corner and just lie down. That’s right, they wouldn’t. But for me, what has happened instead is that I really want to live a very full life Richmond, like I want this life to feel like I I’m here. You know, it’s like when Peter died, it was four days before his 44th birthday, and people would say to me, oh, it’s so tragic. He died so young. And I agree, I think he died too young. But at the same time, what makes me less fearful about getting up every day and like,  what if this happens? Or what if that happens? What if my life is cut down short? Is that I want people to look at my life and say, God, damn it, she lived. God. She got everything that she wanted. She did everything in her moment, and that for me, will feel fulfilling, and that is why I choose to live an urgent life, not a fast life. I didn’t say that. It’s not fast because urgency is like carpe diem. Urgency is an intentional plucking, and I’m not waiting until tomorrow to go do the thing that I want to do. I’m not just carelessly running around doing whatever it is that I have an intention of getting that thing and I’m going to get it today.

 

Reshma Saujani  14:29

Yeah, you’re intentional.

 

Bozoma Saint John  14:30

Yes, I’m intentional in the plucking.

 

Reshma Saujani  14:32

You know, as I always say, God never gives you what you can’t handle it like, yeah.

 

Bozoma Saint John  14:36

I mean, look, I have a very unique relationship with God. I think all of us who believe in some sort of, you know, higher power, probably believe that we have our own unique relationship. I think God and I are really homies. We really are. I have honest conversations with God. You know, there’s some reverence there, for sure, but I’m so, like, come on. Like, come on, come on again. Are you serious right now? You know, if I remember sitting in that front pew at Peter’s funeral and having an argument with God while sitting there and thinking, Are you fucking serious right now? Like, are you serious. Look, why am I sitting here? Why am I sitting in this front pew again? And I swear to you, if I sit in this front pew ever again in my life, I’m gonna do something to you. You know what I mean? Yeah, I don’t know what I’m gonna do to you, God, but I’m gonna do something. And I was threatening God, and I still, you know what I mean, because the truth of the matter is that I have had a lot of grief, and it feels unfair. It feels unfair. Yeah, I’m like, why? What do I do? I’m out here trying to just live a good life, be a good person. Why do these things happen? Like, why do I have to go through this? And the answer to me hasn’t been clear, and so the only way that I can reconcile it is to just live my life, the best way that I can to get up every day and be more powerful, be stronger, be kinder, be more loving, be more intentional. Like those are the things that I can I can control everything else that happens. Girl, I don’t have any control over that. I’m gonna live my life and I’m gonna enjoy it, and I better not see that front pew of the church ever again.

 

Reshma Saujani  16:34

You better not so I have a question when you’re when your husband, Peter was diagnosed with cancer because you were separated at this point, yeah. And his wish was to end the separation, get back together. And you said in another podcast, like getting back together with him wasn’t a yes for you, but for him. Tell me more about that.

 

Bozoma Saint John  16:52

Yeah oh, it was such a hard thing. Reshma, it was hard because I had such conflicted feelings. It wasn’t that I ever stopped loving Peter when we separated. That wasn’t it. We had just suffered so much together we couldn’t see our way through and while we were separated, we were trying really hard to be friends. You know, I’m chuckling because anyone who’s ever been separated, probably has tried that, you know, and you find that, you know, some days are really good and some days piss you off, you know, you’re just like, that’s why I want a divorce, you know. And we certainly went through that. But when he was diagnosed and we knew that his cancer was terminal, things really changed. You know, for me, I and I hate to sound so pithy about it, because did it really have to take a terminal diagnosis for me to see better? And in my case, yes, it did, you know, I’m not ashamed to say that. And what I saw in him was that in order for him to go peacefully, he needed to have tied up all of the loose ends, the things he regretted. And I don’t think I would ever forgive myself if I denied him that and I loved him enough to give him that.

 

Reshma Saujani  21:36

So much has changed since you wrote the book. You left corporate America. You spent a lot of time in khana. I briefly got to kind of see you when you were there. And now you’re, you know, on The Real Housewives, before we get to that. Do you miss corporate America?

 

Bozoma Saint John  21:51

I don’t.

 

Reshma Saujani  21:52

Not at all.

 

Bozoma Saint John  21:53

No, not at all. Not a little bit. You know, it’s funny. I miss creating in a structured environment, you know, I don’t miss the bureaucracy. I don’t miss the pretense. I don’t miss the, you know, the pressure of the microaggressions. I don’t miss those things. If we could get rid of those things in corporate America, I’d go back, but that’s not happening in my lifetime so.

 

Reshma Saujani  22:17

Well, what’s fascinating to me is I think a lot of women who end up in the corporate world end up getting imposter syndrome because they’re in, especially women of color, right? Because you’re in these structures that are not built for you kind of walk out of that environment more confident. How the hell did that happen?

 

Bozoma Saint John  22:33

Well, you know what? That came out of failure, though. It came out of failure because, look, I realized actually, very early on that I wasn’t going to get to the corner office competing at the same level that everybody else was competing. And by the way, I had the gift of being at a very large company at Pepsi, and very quickly I recognized the fact that even if I did the work better than my quote, unquote, classmates. I wasn’t going to be promoted at the same time as them, understanding that it meant that there was no clear path forward the way they had the path forward. And so I gave up. Just said, Well, you know what? I’m not going to get promoted with these people. And every review I go to they tell me, I’m too loud, I’m too brash. So I just gave up. And in giving up was actually then what gave me my freedom, which I know sounds so ridiculous, but it is true. Because what happened? Girl? Well, because literally, everybody who worked with me at the time, they know the day that I came in and I had given up.

 

Reshma Saujani  23:41

But when you mean by give up, you mean like I am not gonna fit into your mold.

 

Bozoma Saint John  23:45

I’m not fitting into the mold. I’m never gonna become the CMO of the company. So you know what? Screw it. I had worn the gray suit before. Girl, I came in the next day. I was wearing leather pants and my freaking flower top and my hair gonna be whatever it wants to be today, and I’m painting my nails red, I’m wearing them long, I’m putting on my lipstick, and when I’m sitting in the meeting, I’m going to say whatever the hell I want to say, because none of y’all gonna promote me anyway. Then all sudden, people start paying attention to me.

 

Reshma Saujani  24:13

And then they want you to be the CMO like, so yes, when you stop trying to play the game, they’re like, oh, I want you. Is that what happened?

 

Bozoma Saint John  24:20

Yes, that’s what happened. That’s what happened. It was the oddest, strangest thing. And the thing that is hard to explain and try to give somebody else those rules is that I know it sounds insane, I know it sounds impossible. I know it comes with a lot of risk. I know that you are going to stop doing whatever they’re doing, and they will look at you crazy. You’re gonna stop paying attention to the things they did or they’re telling you to do, and they’re gonna tell you you suck. They’re going to do that. So accept that now, go in tomorrow wearing your leather pants, knowing that somebody’s gonna be like, What in the hell would you wear that know that you’re not. Gonna be invited to the next meeting, because they gonna think you lost your mind. But if you keep going and you stick to whoever it is that you are, you will be the winner at the end, because you are gonna be the unique one, while the rest of them are trying to busy themselves fitting into a mold that nobody wants anyway.

 

Reshma Saujani  25:19

Mid lifers, listen up, man, this is like some gold advice here.

 

Bozoma Saint John  25:22

Yes, I’m telling you.,

 

Reshma Saujani  25:24

This is it.

 

Bozoma Saint John  25:25

And I’ve done it. I’m the one who’s standing on the other side of the large crevice, okay, who’s telling you, sis, jump. I’m not standing on the same side as you, telling you to jump and I’ll come after you, girl, I already made it, and I’m telling you to jump, trust me, jump.

 

Reshma Saujani  25:41

And you got to leave say, Fuck you, and start your own fucking company.

 

Bozoma Saint John  25:49

And I took the knowledge of what I already learned, and I took the money, yes, and I started my own thing where I’m in charge.

 

Reshma Saujani  25:57

I love it, so I want to hear more about your hair and your hair care brand Eve, because I think it’s like, so inspirational.

 

Bozoma Saint John  26:05

I spent nine months learning about the entire industry. So I started with hair, and then I was like, Oh, shit, I need to make hair care, because you actually need specially formulated hair care in order to take care of that hair. So then I got with a black woman chemist here in California who has worked at all the big ones, right, all the big companies, and she’s in semi retirement. I was like, girl, I need you. And she formulated beautiful product for me. And so I created an entire system, and I birthed it, and I named it Eve, both in honor of my first daughter who did not make it into life. But also for the eve of all of us, you know the woman who we are, this celebrated one from Africa, by the way, because whether you are a religious or you’re a scientist, it still started somewhere from us. Okay, yes, it did so, Eve.

 

Reshma Saujani  27:02

Can you walk me through your decision on, like, why you started this? Like, what made you do it?

 

Bozoma Saint John  27:07

Oh, my gosh. Okay, so here’s what had happened when I left my global CMO job at Netflix. I thought I was taking a sabbatical to finish writing my book and to publish it for a year. The year was up, published book, yay fanfare. I’m looking around. I’m like, I really don’t want to go back there and look, I had a few meetings. And again, this is why I’m saying that. Like, in hindsight, of course, and it’s not that far in hindsight, because only two years ago. But what I’m telling you is that this shit is crazy and it’s hard to do because, you know, I’m sitting in these meetings, you know, talking about the next cmo job I’m gonna have. I talked about one CEO job that I could have. The money is big, the security is there. But I have run that play too many times. I know exactly what’s gonna happen. They look at me and they’re like, Oh, she’s so fabulous. She’s so great. She has all these brilliant ideas. She does things differently. Ooh, and I’m gonna get in there, I’m gonna start to move their shit around. They’re like no, don’t move things around. Then I’m like, But you asked me to come here and do that. So now what? And then they get mad at me. So I was sitting there in one particular meeting, and I was really close, you know, to that decision point. And I just felt, you know, that definition of insanity, doing the same thing again and again and expecting a different result. And I was sitting there, I was thinking, girl, you do this and you are stuck. Girl, I said, let me just pick up my purse. And I just would say, walk out of here. Thank you so much for your time. I’m gonna see myself out. And I came home and cried, Oh, my God, I cried.

 

Reshma Saujani  28:53

Cry of joy or just fear?

 

Bozoma Saint John  28:55

No, I cried of fear. I cried a frustration. Girl, I want to cry now I cried because it just felt unfair. I was like, Yo, I am talented, I am good. I’m good. And why? Why is this face? Why won’t they take me as I am. Why do they always want to change me? And I cried for all of us, because if I someone who’s inducted into the marketing Hall of Fame, who has more awards than any of my counterparts, who has had four big cmo jobs, if I can’t be who I am, how can anybody else? And one day, I got up from my crying, and I was like, You know what? Actually, I’m pissed off. You. I’m mad as hell, and I’m gonna make my own thing, and some of it look, I wish I could be a bigger person and say that I just did it all for me. No, I did it to fuck them too.

 

Reshma Saujani  30:14

I’m gonna fucking show you. Oh yeah. That’s hell yeah. That’s like, 99% of why I do half the things I do.

 

Bozoma Saint John  30:19

Look, that’s the energy. I was like, oh okay, you know what? Actually, y’all have made me feel like I’m not good enough this whole time. Meanwhile, I’m better than you, meanwhile I’m stronger than you, meanwhile I’m wiser than you. Meanwhile I know this culture so much better than you know it. And so I’m gonna build something, and I’m gonna do it better. And so I came out.

 

Reshma Saujani  30:48

And you wanna get rich doing it?

 

Bozoma Saint John  30:49

Hell yeah, you know what I mean. I’m taking all their coins, everybody. But the crazy thing is, look, I have had, and you know, a lot of women of color, especially black women, will tell you that our hair, you know, is a topic of conversation all the time and a topic of consideration, which is so crazy, right? It’s like, Look, if you’re gonna go to an important business meeting, you are absolutely not wearing braids, you know, like your hair says something about you before you even open your mouth. And so I thought about it, and I said, well, you know what, what is happening in the hair industry? You know it’s like for me, it’s like, I love my wigs, extensions, like bundles, girl, I love it all. And as I thought about I was just like, man, you know what, when I’m doing my hair, the hair that I’m using is not made for me. It’s made for white women. And if you go and search Google or YouTube or any place, you’ll find millions of videos of black women and women of color who are like they’re kitchen chemists out here trying to, you know, maneuver and manipulate hair textures to match theirs or dying lace to match the complexion, because the lace that the wigs and weaves are made on is too light of a color for our skin. And so just like everything else, I was like, Well, where does this start anyway? And I was like, oh, it starts in it starts in Asia. You know what? I’m gonna go. So I went to Guangzhou, China by myself.

 

Reshma Saujani  32:19

No.

 

Bozoma Saint John  32:20

For the for the largest hair show in the world. And it was like, everybody was there. It was huge cousy bonus. And I had my little, like, you know, my little placard, and I was walking around by myself, six foot tall, black woman alone, no translator, by the way, on day one, but I learned my lesson. Though, day two, I came back with a translator, okay? And I was asking questions, you know, just like the basic questions. And it was the questions I was asking didn’t have complicated answers. You know, when I asked things like, Hey, why is it that the texture that you’re selling doesn’t match like African American or African hair? Why is that they’re like, Oh, nobody asked us to. Why is it that the lace is not brown? Oh, we don’t have to do it. Because I expected, oh, the cogs are gonna go up, right? No, it wasn’t. It was just Oh, nobody asked us to.

 

Reshma Saujani  33:13

Because most of the entrepreneurs probably were not black.

 

Bozoma Saint John  33:17

They’re not they’re not black. Women and women of color consume this particular industry, and there is no representation, not in manufacturing. They’re not considered for anything. So I was like, Oh, this is what I’m gonna do. Yes, I’m gonna go make it.

 

Reshma Saujani  33:34

Oh, God, what an incredible story.

 

Reshma Saujani  33:53

We gotta talk about Real Housewives.

 

Bozoma Saint John  36:35

Yes, we do.

 

Reshma Saujani  36:37

Okay, so you’re the newest member of Real Housewives. Beverly Hills, I gotta say you came on the show with, like, a point of view knowing exactly who you are. No surprise, you’re like, I’m not publicly bound down to anybody. I gotta ask you this, yes, yes, please. When I, when I watch reality TV show, it sometimes feels like it’s another space in place that was built kind of without people like you and me.

 

Bozoma Saint John  37:00

Yes.

 

Reshma Saujani  37:02

So how you breaking through?

 

Bozoma Saint John  37:05

So here’s the real scoop, right? Because sometimes it’s hard to have these conversations in like small sound bites. The real truth of it is that one I knew I needed a bigger platform.

 

Reshma Saujani  37:17

That’s right.

 

Bozoma Saint John  37:17

In or in order to tell the story that I need to tell, there are very few spaces to do that. There have been way too much feedback of like, oh, Boz, you can’t do that, you can’t do this, you can’t do that. And I’m like, Well, why can’t I? Okay, well, I’m just going to continue doing exactly what I want to do. It worked 20 years ago. It’s going to work now. I could do whatever the hell I want to do. Who’s going to stop me? And so having that kind of unapologetic attitude allowed me to look at the entire space and say, what is going to get me in front of people faster? And then on top of that, I’m like, Well, you know, just because they act a particular way, it doesn’t mean I have to act that way. Right again, like my entire life and career, I have never had to conform to a space because it just I wasn’t allowed to, and so I’ve always had to make my own space. So why would this be different? Why would I have to come in and act like a whole bunch of other ladies they’ve been on the show. I don’t have to do that. I don’t have to do anything that they tell me to do.

 

Reshma Saujani  38:19

And I don’t know if that’s what people want to watch. Like I want to watch you telling this story, not, not fighting some catty fight with like, about I don’t even know you know?

 

Bozoma Saint John  38:29

About nothing, what’s really interesting, or for me, anyway, coming into it, and the conversation I was having with producers, with everybody, it’s just like, hey, look, I understand storytelling. I understand the pathway that you need to take in order to make television interesting. However, it can be one note, you know, yes, of course, there’s always conflict in a group of friends. And you know, you need to figure out, like, who’s doing what and why they did it. And however, it can be elevated. It doesn’t have to be small. You have you and I, we’ve just talked about my life and how dramatic it’s been for numerous reasons. And so why would I have to resort to name calling anybody when there’s enough going on in my life that has its own drama? That’s right. It was like, You think building a company is just a cakewalk. It’s not. There’s lots of conflict in there. And do you think that, having lived a life of widowhood for 11 years and raising my daughter alone, you know, trying to find love again? Has that been easy? Oh, girl, no. And so there is so much more that you can get in a life which has been lived that I don’t have to resort to name calling and pointing fingers at people for pithy things in order to be interesting on television. And so when you see me on the. Show, you will say, Oh, I know her.

 

Reshma Saujani  40:02

I watched, and I was like, that’s my friend. It’s so cool that you have literally stayed true to yourself even on reality TV.

 

Bozoma Saint John  40:11

Yeah, same person. You know what I mean. I’m showing up in the same way, and my hope is that by doing that, I am still representing, you know, for the corporate girlies who are doing it their own way, you know, maybe some who aspire to be themselves, wholly and completely, and who haven’t gotten there yet, you know. And so if I can do that, if I can be that, and it will be okay and likable, then you know what? I think we can change, actually, the way that this industry sees us and the kind of entertainment we need.

 

Reshma Saujani  40:53

That’s right.

 

Bozoma Saint John  40:54

Look, I’m not judging anybody. I’m like, Look, you wanna go ahead and square up and squabble do that? Okay, that’s your life, but it’s not my life.

 

 

Reshma Saujani  41:02

Mic drop, this is the best conversation. Thank you. This is so powerful.

 

Bozoma Saint John  41:07

I love you. Reshma.

 

Reshma Saujani  41:09

I love you too.

 

Bozoma Saint John  41:11

Thank you so much. I really appreciate the conversation.

 

Reshma Saujani  41:14

I’m so so proud of you. I can’t, I can’t tell you, like on how many different layers and places that you just a role model for so many of us. I love you.

 

Bozoma Saint John  41:23

Thank you so much.

 

Reshma Saujani  41:36

If you want to get even more wisdom, watch her on Real Housewives of Beverly Hills and read her book The urgent life. See you all next week.

 

CREDITS 41:51

There’s more of My So Called Midlife with Lemonada Premium. Subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content, like midlife advice that didn’t make it into the show. Subscribe now in Apple podcast, I’m your host, Reshma Saujani, our producer is Claire Jones. This series is sound designed by Ivan Kuraev. Our theme was composed by Ivan Kuraev, and performed by Ryan Jewell, Ivan Kuraev and Karen […]. Our senior supervising producer is Kristen Lepore. Our VP of new content is Rachel Neel. Executive Producers include me, Reshma Saujani, Stephanie Wittels Wachs and Jessica Cordova Kramer. Series consulting and production support from Katie Cordova. Help others find our show by leaving us a rating and writing a review and let us know how you’re doing in midlife. You can submit your story to be included in the show at speakpipe.com/midlife, follow My So Called Midlife, wherever you get your podcast, or listen ad free on Amazon music with your Prime membership, thanks for listening. See you next week, bye.