Wiktionary:Requests for deletion

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All Wiktionary: namespace discussions 1 2 3 4 5 - All discussion pages 1 2 3 4 5

This is for pages in the main namespace. For all other pages, see Wiktionary:Requests for deletion/Others.

This page is where users can propose and discuss the deletion of pages in the main namespace (see the nomination category). Requests are archived when a decision has been reached (be it deleted, kept, or transwikied); the deleting administrator should remember to sign.

Notes

• Terms that failed a request for verification are presumed invalid. They should not be resubmitted as the same term without adequate verification (see verification archives) and do not need duplicate listings here.
• Terms should be listed on Requests for verification if their attestation is being called into question.
• Section title should be exactly the wikified entry title, only. The entry should have the tag {{rfd}} at the top.
• Very blatantly obvious candidates for deletion should only be tagged with {{delete|Reason for deletion}} and not listed (here, nor elsewhere).
• The deletion of just part of a page may also be proposed here. If an entire section is being proposed for deletion, the tag {{rfd}} should be placed at the top; if only a sense is, the tag {{rfd-sense}} should be used, or the more precise {{rfd-redundant}} if it applies. In any of these cases, any editor (not necessarily an administrator) may act on the discussion.

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Good nomination guidelines - Page deletion guidelines - Overview of the deletion process - List of deletion templates, categories, etc. Start a new deletion nomination

Oldest tagged {{rfd}}s
No pages meet these criteria.

January 2008

Sheetrock

rfd-senses:

1. A wall made of Sheetrock.
2. Verb. To install a wall made of Sheetrock.

This is a trademarked term. We have an uncapitalized entry as well. I don't see how the trademarked, capitalized term can have these senses. I suppose it is possible that usage of the cap term includes these senses as well. I may be confusing the trademarking and the capitalization. DCDuring 01:04, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

• Delete. Uncapitalized sense is the one people use when they actually use the term. bd2412 T 02:45, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I can't find any citations supporting the wall sense in either capitalized or uncapitalized forms. Unfortunately there are plenty of cites available for the verb sense in capitalized form, which muddies the waters a bit. DCDuring 02:55, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

This term is encountered very frequently in architecture/construction documents and translator’s dictionaries include it because so many translators have difficulty with it. For one thing, it is used very frequently in the industry as a generic informal synonym for drywall. Keep. However, I would say that the verb is always lowercase, and I don’t believe either Sheetrock or sheetrock is used to mean the wall itself. Sheetrock only means the gypsum panels, individually or collectively. —Stephen 20:28, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

As a homeowner I couldn't imagine deleting such a term. I actually added the lower-case version. The upper case version had some senses I didn't believe as well as the basic noun sense, which is hard to deny. I am just trying to sharpen up the entries. I was surprised at how often Sheetrock is used in print as a verb where I would have expected sheetrock. It looks like an author would be well advised to use drywall as a more generic term (noun and verb). Are you voting to keep the two disputed senses? DCDuring 23:01, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

No, not those, just the sense that we know to be right. I know that carpenters and architects are likely to capitalize the verb, but I think that they always mean the lowercase word when it’s a verb. I can’t imagine a valid need for the trademark as a verb. —Stephen 23:08, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

As an employee at the Home Depot, I will vouch for the first noun sense (drywall, plasterboard), as well as the verb. I suppose the third sense (a wall made of sheetrock) is valid, but I think it should be deleted anyway, since it's really just a part of the first definition (or perhaps simply appended to def #1. I have never heard the word used in the second sense, nor have I ever heard a plural form. It seems to me that the only sense which should be at the uppper-case entry is the brand name, with all the stuff we're currently looking at placed at the lower-case. Atelaes 23:14, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I found it used in the plural in legal documents, where it may be written in the plural as a way of including any possible alternative. I could probably find three, but I don't think such documents are great examples of usage. DCDuring 23:56, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

delete both senses Παρατηρητής

keep lowercase and capitalized first letter as appropriate in sentence structure. Only the fully capitalized (ie, SHEETROCK) form is, technically, trademarked (by USG). Like another well-known brand, Xerox, the word has become so widely used that it has come into common use as presently shown in the current Wiktionary definition. 72.73.13.29 15:57, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

keep or move to RfV. DCDuring TALK 10:45, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Hammers

Spam. --Connel MacKenzie 16:39, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

• Delete team nickname; keep surname if authentic.—msh210℠ 17:46, 24 January 2008 (UTC) Subject this to a request for verification of use without context.—msh210℠ 17:51, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Move to RfV DCDuring TALK 18:37, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Definite keep, for reasons listed at Spurs above.--Dmol 21:57, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Move to Appendix:English names of sports teams, now under construction. bd2412 T 00:54, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

The draft Appendix:English names of sports teams is now done and open for business. bd2412 T 14:48, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Of course Keep - also Spurs and the rest. Παρατηρητής

Added German genitive form of Hammer, too. Mutante 18:40, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Gunners

Spam. --Connel MacKenzie 16:39, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

• Delete team nickname.—msh210℠ 17:46, 24 January 2008 (UTC) Subject this to a request for verification of use without context.—msh210℠ 17:50, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Move to RfV DCDuring TALK 18:37, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Definite keep, for reasons listed at Spurs above.--Dmol 21:57, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Move to Appendix:English names of sports teams, now under construction. bd2412 T 00:54, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

The draft Appendix:English names of sports teams is now done and open for business. bd2412 T 14:48, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Of course Keep - does this Connel person know what spam is? Παρατηρητής 08:33, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Bums

As above. But this deals with a US sports team. --Keene 17:39, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Why no RfV??? By what criteria is this per se deletable? DCDuring TALK 17:44, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

It's only listed here because it's a US term, in response to Connel's nominations of UK terms - so that all are treated equally. --Keene 17:47, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Delete as obvious spam. --Connel MacKenzie 17:49, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

It is not obvious to me that this is spam, except in the sense of spam meaning any bit of internet posting that is not to one's taste. DCDuring TALK 18:30, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Subject this to a request for verification of use without context.—msh210℠ 17:52, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Move to RfV DCDuring TALK 18:37, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

The draft Appendix:English names of sports teams is now done and open for business. bd2412 T 14:49, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Move to Appendix:English names of sports teams, now under construction. bd2412 T 00:54, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Cited DCDuring TALK 15:34, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Jints

As above. But this deals with a US sports team. --Keene 17:39, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Delete as above. --Connel MacKenzie 17:49, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Subject this to a request for verification of use without context.—msh210℠ 17:52, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Jints is a nickname for the New York Giants baseball team, derived from eye-dialect for New York dialect for Giants. Accordingly, I wuld think that we would be happy with it being in a sentence that did not include the words "New York" or "Giants".

Why is there a contest about RfDing sports team names? Most sports teams nicknames would seem to be fine if they are actually used. We may need some way to accommodate them when there are numerous referents of the same word {Broncos, Hornets, ...). Or we may insist on mentions outside of newspapers. DCDuring TALK 18:26, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Not a sentence, a broader context, I think.—msh210℠ 18:34, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Move to RfV DCDuring TALK 18:37, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Move to Appendix:English names of sports teams, now under construction. bd2412 T 00:55, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

The draft Appendix:English names of sports teams is now done and open for business. bd2412 T 14:49, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Cited DCDuring TALK 15:07, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Athletics

Previously marked as "kept" - fell through the cracks, apparently. --Connel MacKenzie 17:48, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Comment. That link is of course Wiktionary:Requests for deletion/Archives/2006/08#Athletics, as Keene noted.—msh210℠ 17:59, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Delete this one: unlike the others nominated for deletion above, this is the official name of the team, and is capitalized (initial letter). Anyone wanting to know what it is will check WP or the like. As CFI notes, "To be included, the use of the company name other than its use as a trademark (i.e., a use as a common word or family name) has to be attested.". This is, after all, a company name, in two senses ("group of individuals with a common purpose, as in a company of actors" and "business")  ;-) . I'm willing to change my mind if citations can be brought that fit the standard explained at Wiktionary:Criteria for inclusion/Brand names, which I doubt.—msh210℠ 17:59, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

FWIW, I thought the "official" team name was "Oakland A's." (IMO, all team names are still spam, regardless.) --Connel MacKenzie 18:06, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

move to RfV DCDuring TALK 18:37, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Move to Appendix:English names of sports teams, now under construction. bd2412 T 00:55, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

The draft Appendix:English names of sports teams is now done and open for business. bd2412 T 14:50, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Added sense as nickname for many teams whose full name includes "Athletics". US sports context. DCDuring TALK 15:41, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

QPR

As above (try to keep these all together.) --Connel MacKenzie 18:39, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Definite keep, for reasons listed at Spurs above. Also it is an abbreviation.--Dmol 21:59, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Move to Appendix:English names of sports teams, now under construction. bd2412 T 00:55, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

The draft Appendix:English names of sports teams is now done and open for business. bd2412 T 14:50, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Keep Παρατηρητής

February 2008

akennedness

Defined solely in terms of a redlink "The state or quality of being akenned." Akenned has 474 raw googles, but they seem to be proper nouns and email addresses. Akennedness has 5 raw googles (one of them us). RJFJR 18:06, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

uh, wait. Middle English dict. shows akenned. But that doesn't support akennedness. RJFJR 18:08, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

There seems to be OE: on cristes akenned-nysse daege from Aelfric's Lives of the Saints] DCDuring TALK 18:28, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

• It's OK. You can debate about whether it's English or Middle English, but it's definitely a word. I've now added akenned and aken. Ƿidsiþ 07:38, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Move to RfV. DCDuring TALK 10:49, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

get sick

Edit: To become ill. Per [[get fill-in-the-blank]]. DAVilla 17:10, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

"To become ill" is almost idiomatic. Keep? --Connel MacKenzie 05:14, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

This can also mean "to vomit." So can "be sick," of course, but I don't think "sick" by itself normally has this meaning. -- Visviva 15:06, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm okay with that definition. Changed to rfd-sense. DAVilla 07:07, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Wow it means "vomit"? Just in American English, right? Kappa 01:45, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I think it's regional; I've heard it, and I'd understand it, but I'd never use it, and I don't think most Midwesterners would. (Of course, ~30–40% of the time I say on Wiktionary that a word/sense/construction doesn't exist in my region, it's less than a month or two before I hear someone use it in real life, so who knows?) —Ruakh_TALK 02:42, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Keep, to contrast with "vomit" sense. DCDuring TALK 11:03, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Spanish double l

Note: there exists a previously archived request that may be relevant to this one.

Bad entry title. --Connel MacKenzie 20:57, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

This was matked as kept in November. I repeat my arguments here:-
Books DO refer to this as the "Spanish double l". gbc shows a couple, but more usage can be found in a simple google search, which finds a lot of current usage. Also any Spanish language teaching aid in English will mention the "Spanish double l". There is no other way in English to talk about this letter, which comes after "L" and before "M" in the official Spanish alphabet. -- Algrif 17:29, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

If we are going to re-discuss this, I'll weigh in as weak delete or move to RFV: I think it's SoP (deprecated template usage) Spanish + (deprecated template usage) double l; it gets very few hits on b.g.c.; and your statement notwithstanding, I don't think 288 Web hits demonstrates "a lot of current usage". However, I'll also weigh in as weak wait a few more months before repeating a resolved discussion, unless we have a specific reason to re-evaluate the validity of that resolution. —Ruakh_TALK 00:48, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

It seems to have been marked 'keep' incorrectly - both when I renominated it and now reviewing that previous nomination. (Who added that previously lost link, anyhow?) The title is still bad, no matter what DAVilla decreed unilaterally, when considering it an encyclopedic topic, therefore worthy of inclusion in a dictionary. --Connel MacKenzie 22:01, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Double l is not the same as Spanish double l. The English spell travelling with a double l, unlike the Americans, who use a single l. This does NOT mean that the UK English pronunciation is eλe. This is, on the other hand, the pronunciation of the Spanish double l. -- Algrif 11:54, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Keep This is the English name for a specific letter of the Spanish alphabet. We have alpha, ess, long s, and Eszett. This follows the same pattern of being the name of a letter of an alphabet. This has already been discussed and kept. To re-open the discussion, we should have some new reason to do so, not the same reason as before. --EncycloPetey 04:19, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I think the reason is different this time. The entry title looks just fine to me, but Ruakh has brought up the question of idiomaticity. Certainly it's a descriptive name, which are sum of parts. It also happens to be the name of a single letter, rather than two, as in the English example EncycloPetey gave. That knowledge is not apparent from the name, so keep on those grounds. DAVilla 07:28, 9 February 2008 (UTC)\

Sorry, but that does not follow. The previous nomination was not because it had a bad entry title (but should have been, perhaps.) That subject was not discussed at all, before you mistakenly marked it as kept. --Connel MacKenzie 22:03, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Since I didn't vote clearly earlier, strong delete from this entry title (even if content is retained in an appendix somewhere.) --Connel MacKenzie 21:56, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

I've added a quotation showing attributive use of this word. --EncycloPetey 00:35, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

lapidate

Two identical senses?—msh210℠ 20:58, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

In my experience, stone is at least a specific subset of "to throw stones at" (at least within biblical references, the only place I've ever experienced the verb "stone"). I would switch "sometimes" to "generally." Past, that I'm happy with the entry as it stands (although it wouldn't be the end of the world if the two senses were merged, as they're obviously closely related). Atelaes 21:31, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

If stone only sometimes is to death (which is what you must say if you want to change "sometimes" to "generally", or, for that matter, if you want to keep the "sometimes"), then how does stone differ in meaning from throw stones at? To me they're completely synonymous, which is why I said these are identical senses. Is there some difference between them of which I'm unaware? (I.e., what "specific subset" is it?) (Note we have s.v. stone "to pelt with stones, esp. to kill by pelting with stones", which agrees with the entry lapidate and with my understanding.)—msh210℠ 21:41, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

If I had to pick one sense I would pick one that included the idea of stoning to death, partially because "lapidation" is topical in connection with the use of lapidation as punishment in some cultures currently. DCDuring TALK 21:35, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I have edited his and provided a single real quotation for each of three non-redundant senses. Please inspect. Feel free to edit or RfV or otherwise edit. DCDuring TALK 11:42, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Merge 1 & 2. These fail the lemming test: although MW3 and the OED both acknowledge that this can mean either "stone to death" or just "throw stones at", they both confine it to a single sense. Some lapidations are more thorough than others, but that isn't enough to justify two separate senses. -- Visviva 12:05, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps a legal context? DCDuring TALK 12:18, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

If it is used with the specific legal meaning of "stone to death as punishment" then definitely that would merit a separate sense. But I don't think the current journalistic cite is enough to support that. Are the Sharia-based northern Nigerian legal codes written in English, and do they use this term? (At least in Zamfara state, the technical term seems to be "rajm" and the general term "stoning".) Or are there other current or historical English-language legal codes that use it? -- Visviva 16:13, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

military exercise

—Ruakh_TALK 22:09, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Delete as SoP. The definition is covered under one sense of (deprecated template usage) exercise, with (deprecated template usage) military clarifying what sort of exercise/training. --EncycloPetey 22:14, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Delete as very obvious SoP. --Dmol 15:59, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, delete. —Stephen 16:41, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

The translations of "military exercise" to other languages are not necassarily equal to translation of "military" + translation of "exercise", e.g German Militärmanöver and Finnish sotaharjoitus. I do not know whether we have an adequate solution to this. Of course one solution is simply not to care. Hekaheka 19:00, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

We usually don't consider that. After all, "This is my bag." doesn't translate word-for-word in all languages, but that doesn't mean the phrase deserves a dictionary entry. In the case of military exercise, it should be possible for someone to look up the individual words to determine the meaning. Presumably also, words like Militärmanöver should be listed as derived terms under Militär, so that a person can find such words. --EncycloPetey 19:24, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Del as SoP in the 1st sense and "encyclopedic" in the 2nd. (FWIW, i speak as the creator, a WP-admin who finds himself valuably educated by this discussion. And i thot only "unencyclopedic was a pejorative term!)

At the risk of going off-topic, tho, should i understand "PoV" re the second sense as a claim that the following assertion involves no question of fact, but merely a matter of opinion?

Journalists routinely write "military exercises", when they believe that in planning the events, any training value to be realized has been subordinated to ensuring effective saber-rattling.

Thanks.
--User:Jerzy·t 21:44, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Delete the second sense outright. DAVilla 04:35, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, that depends on whether you can find sufficient citations to demonstrate such use. Ideally, we want quality citations to back up all senses and definitions. In practice however, the most controversial get such quotations first, precisely because they are controversial. Commonly accepted senses may get only an example sentence to start with or may have no usage information at all, as a result of Wiktionary being understaffed. --EncycloPetey 21:50, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

This is my very first visit to this page. I am very disappointed.

First, I encourage participants here to avoid opaque jargon, like "SoP". Its use makes this page impenetrable for those of us who aren't insiders. It took me ten or fifteen minutes to figure out it meant "Sum of al parts".

Maybe I am missing something, but in this particular case I am mystified by the suggestion that "military exercise" is merely "military" + "exercise". I suggest that "military" + "exercise" is much more likely to bring up images of platoons of soldiers doing pushups, jumping jacks, or precision marching.

It seems to me that there is no kind of non-military exercise that is like a military exercise. Do we have "Fire Department Exercises"? Do we have "Boy Scout Exercises"? Do we have "Science Exercises"? "Day care exercises"?

Up here school boards have all their teachers take a day or two per year off from their regular duties for "professional development days". Kids call them "PD days", and love them because they get an extra day of vacation. We don't call them "Teacher exercises". No one would know what you meant if you called them "teacher exercises".

I spent some time looking at this page today. And I am going to offer my overall impression. Sorry, I see a general lack of deep reflection in the judgments placed on this page.

I have to wonder whether those who aren't willing to spell out "sum of all parts", who aren't willing to wikilink it to an explanation, so these discussions are meaningful to those who aren't in the club, are showing they have the patience to give these candidates for deletion the necessary serious deep thought.

Philosopher of Science Jacob Bronowski wrote that the word "Revolution" had no hint of over-turning the established order until Copernicus wrote "On the Revolutions of the Celestial Spheres". Words and phrases have meanings that seem obvious, but really have no tie to their literal meaning. There is no reason, other than Copernicus's work, for us to associate the word revolution with political, scientific or cultural upheaval. And similarly, I suggest, the combination of "military" + "exercise" has no obvious connection to soldiers setting aside their regular duties to engage in training -- other than traditional usage. I suggest this connection only seems obvious through familiarity.

If the wiktionary is going to be a serious project those weighing in on the possible deletion of words have to be able budget the time to think deeply about what they write, and they have to be prepared to think deeply before they write.

Cheers! Geo Swan 03:35, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your thoughtful critique.

While it's true that "exercise" is not frequently used in this meaning, it is used in many similar constructions such as "anti-terrorism exercises," "security exercises," etc. It does not seem reasonable that we would have entries for all such terms. The restricted collocational range is probably best covered in a usage note at exercise.

Also, it's a small point, but it appears that Bronowski may be mistaken; at any rate it is claimed that the term "revolution" was in use in this sense a good 90 years before De revolutionibus appeared in print. But of course you can't believe everything you read online, and I'm not sure where to begin with verifying such a claim. Cheers, -- Visviva 06:28, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Re: the 1450 citation of revolution; it's listed in the OED under III. --EncycloPetey 17:18, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

There are a large number of mathematical texts that will say something like "Proof of this assertion is left as an exercise for the student." There is a widely understood meaning of exercise that entails practice rather than simply "physical exercise". And in regards to you argument by analogy with (deprecated template usage) revolution, you are arguing that the original meaning is the primary one, and the secondary meaning is only through association. Such as argument would actually argue against what you say about (deprecated template usage) exercise. You see, the original meaning of that word is "busywork, practice, training". It is only since about 1533 that exercise has been applied to specifically military maneouvers or physical practice to improve the body. And interestingly, those two new senses are grouped together in the original edition of the OED, from about 100 years ago. So, a distinction between the two senses you are discussing has only been made in the past century. --EncycloPetey 17:28, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Keep. Not the most obvious sense of exercise (despite the fact that soldiers do plenty of that kind as well). bd2412 T 21:22, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

The sense at least needs its own definition line at exercise. Keep per prime number. (What kind of prime? A prime number.) This is a common collocation, and it is the way that the sense is clarified. (What kind of exercise? A military exercise.) Sum-of-parts is not an exclusive rule. DAVilla 04:41, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

So, we're going to have mental exercise, teaching exercise, training exercise, mathematical exercise, physical exercise, lexicographical exercise, illustrative exercise, etc? All of these clarify the kind of exercise by adding a descriptor. The fact that the sense is clarified by the addition of a word does not argue for inclusion any more than it would for candy heart or apple cobbler. Consider: "The military will be conducting exercises today." and "The armed forces will be conducting exercises today." Both of these carry exactly the same sense as military exercise, but without the proximity found in the "collocation", and the second example doesn't even include the descriptor "military". This is not analogous to the case of (deprecated template usage) prime number, since removal of the portion (deprecated template usage) prime compromises the meaning, which is not the case with (deprecated template usage) military exercise. --EncycloPetey 05:38, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

There is nothing surprising about the definition of mental exercise and the others, but I think it's worth pointing out that military exercise implies large-scale manoeuvres and not just physical training, which would be expected from sum-of-parts. One could, I suppose, attempt to include this information in the exercise page. Kappa 00:30, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

The analogy to (deprecated template usage) prime number is that the removal of (deprecated template usage) number does not compromise the meaning. (As I said above: What kind of prime? A prime number.)

The sentences you give don't prove anything to me because context can always make the meaning clear. You don't always need a collocation, but that doesn't detract from the fact that it is.

I don't know about most of your examples, but (deprecated template usage) physical exercise would qualify since it exactly delineates definition 2. There may be another way to allow (deprecated template usage) mental exercise and (deprecated template usage) training exercise, which are collocations that to me are not summed mentally. I wonder if there's always a reason why.

This wouldn't be the best test to use though. At this point we'd have to bring into question how we delineate senses. For instance, Random House, AHD, probably others do not distinguish mental from physical. I think Kappa's take is a little stronger, though I take it as evidence to keep the page, and not just write it off as a note. DAVilla 00:04, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

My point is that for (deprecated template usage) prime number, the analogy is seriously flawed. The expectation is that (deprecated template usage) prime is a modifier of (deprecated template usage) number, but in fact the removal of the second component does not damage the meaning. For (deprecated template usage) military exercise to fit the analogy, you'd have to remove (deprecated template usage) exercise and preserve the meaning, which isn't the case. The order here matters, because in such a combination the first component is typically the modifier and the secoind the noun being modified. The term prime number breaks with this usual pattern in a way the military exercise just doesn't do. I'm sorry, but you've made a flawed analogy. --EncycloPetey 05:07, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Ah, well now I understand that one, at least. I'm not sure what would be a perfect example. What about opposable thumb, presuming you would agree to keep that. Even the thumbs of raccoons are somewhat opposable, if not as much as our own. But anyways Visviva and BD already have a better angle on this. DAVilla 03:07, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Keep. Set phrase, idiomatic. --Connel MacKenzie 04:18, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Delete second sense, which seems PoV and gets into intent. The intent and implications of something are not inherent in the thing itself. We seem to limit concerns of intent and implication to words used in interpersonal interaction.

Keep without prejudice. DCDuring TALK 11:58, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

vector

rfd-sense: (psychology) "a recurring psychosocial issue that stimulates growth and development in the personality"

not in 2 psych dictionaries in this sense, incl APA 2006, contibutor cites one author in edit summary. DCDuring TALK 15:51, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

A section about Arthur Chickering from Professional Orientation to Counseling may shed some light on this use of the word "vector". It still sounds to me like an application of a generic term for a specific purpose that may not be widely recognized as a new connotation, but I'm not a psychologist (nor do I play one on TV). Interestingly, I hadn't read the edit summary of the addition of this sense before I checked, so the fact that my quick search yielded the same Chickering weakly reinforces the idea that this is a very uncommon connotation, maybe only in use by a single professional. Broader evidence is certainly called for. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 21:43, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

everybody's

Do we want to actively delete these or leave them be if someone wants to create them? Conrad.Irwin 13:25, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I want to actively delete them. (I might be more O.K. with them if they were more accurate, though. "Genitive singular form" is misleading on three counts: this isn't really a "genitive"; it's a "singular" only in that (deprecated template usage) everybody is a syntactically singular pronoun, which hardly seems relevant to (deprecated template usage) everybody's, since syntactically it doesn't have a number, and it's not like there's a genitive plural it needs to be distinguished from; and it's not really a "form". And our POS header, "noun", is flat-out wrong: (deprecated template usage) everybody is a pronoun, so there's no way (deprecated template usage) everybody's is a noun.) —Ruakh_TALK 02:17, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

There's a reason the vote was for noun plurals only - to keep entries like this. Move to RFC. Keep. --Connel MacKenzie 04:08, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't know what vote you're referring to, but the vote I remember did forbid entries like this. It explicitly made exception for "the irregularly-formed possessive forms of pronouns", and there seems to have been general agreement that the personal pronoun (deprecated template usage) one's would probably be O.K., or at least was a special case to be considered independently; but I see no suggestion that the vote only cover nouns. —Ruakh_TALK 03:34, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Agree with Ruakh. The vote clearly only allows for irregular pronominal possessive forms, such as whose and its. While I don't know how I would have voted, had I been around for this vote, its mandate is fairly clear. Delete -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 03:57, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

To quote Ruakh: "(I'd actually prefer that there also be an exception for one's, which is the only personal pronoun that we use the apostrophe in, but whatever. This way is quite fine.)". The only one, eh? Really? Not that it is my place to protest deletion: this is not my mother tongue. However, Dutch does have: ieder - ieders (everybody - everybody's) and imho ieders deserves a lemma. What translation should I give [[everybody|everybody's]]?

Jcwf 04:18, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

We do not create English entries simply to provide a translation substrate. I would probably do everybody's. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 04:24, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

I believe that when there is enough reason to we should, even for entries like father/mother's brother which could be linked in place of a translation of uncle in certain languages. It would not surprise me if several languages necessitated this for all possessives of pronouns. Therefore weak keep as a phrasebook entry. DAVilla 10:37, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

The only one, yes. (In Standard English, at least. Certainly "it's" is a very common misspelling of "its".) I don't speak Dutch, but on the face of it, yes, [[everybody|everybody's]] looks like quite a reasonable translation, as does [[everybody]][['s]] [edit:] or, as Atelaes suggests, [[everybody]]'s. (From what I gather, the genitive in Dutch is mostly archaic except with pronouns like (deprecated template usage) ieder. If this is correct, then I agree with your opinion that (deprecated template usage) ieders deserves a full entry.) —Ruakh_TALK 04:26, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, genitives are mostly archaic and in fact less common than the English possessive. They are mostly limited to persons: Jan->Jans etc. Pronouns are a bit of an exception like wiens, wier, ieders, niemands, but then there is a whole bunch of adverbs that derive from genitives. I still don't understand your 'the only one' argument: i.e. I fail to see the difference between everybody's, one's, somebody's and anybody's.

Jcwf 04:45, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

March 2008

fable

One sense (in English) has been split incorrectly into four separate senses. --Connel MacKenzie 19:25, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I know; the editors of Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) really went too far with the whole "Webster's 1913 is not paper" thing. In their defense, though, they were probably prodded in part by their desire to desire to translate words helpfully into every language. Seriously, though, keep; it's probably worthwhile to distinguish between a literal fable, and three extended senses, especially since they give such different connotations. —Ruakh_TALK 01:45, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Keep MW3 retains 7 distinct senses in three groups. One of the things WT should NOT be is WTSimple. Grouping similar senses; displaying simply worded sense or glosses first; and hiding subsenses and subtleties all seem worthy of consideration, but deletion pushes us to be a very specific kind of dictionary, rather than a universal one. DCDuring TALK 02:21, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

The OED distinguishes 5 separate senses and a total of 10 sub-senses! Widsith 08:38, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

As written, senses 1 and 3 do seem redundant; isn't sense 3 precisely describing a made-up story told for amusement? Maybe the distinction made more sense 95 years ago, or maybe the inclusion of "amuse" in sense 1 was simply an error, or maybe there is some still-obvious distinction I am simply missing. Clue, please. Sense 2 does seem distinct, but I have to wonder whether this sense has ever actually been used by anyone besides Dryden. -- Visviva 05:02, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

The 4 meanings are quite clear to me.--Richardb 01:44, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

In the interests of WikiLove, parts of the preceding comment have been redacted. —Ruakh_TALK 02:03, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Not until we ban personal attacks from them. Let's discuss pages not people here, meta discussion and personal grievances to talk page please. - [The]DaveRoss 01:47, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

As I recall, last time you were here you were blocked for a single-minded campaign of attacks. If you're here just to do that again, I'd rather you just leave again. I think we as a community are probably quite impatient with it by now; I know I am. Dmcdevit·t

• Kept due to no consensus to delete.--Jusjih 03:14, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

• Note: target page fable is still tagged. --17:15, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
• Note: target page fable is still tagged. --07:04, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
• Note: target page fable is still tagged. --07:04, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
• Note: target page fable is still tagged. --18:36, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
• Note: target page fable is still tagged. --22:35, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Teepol

--Connel MacKenzie 04:34, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

:Delete per WT:CFI#Company names and abundant precedent including #Microsoft above. -- Visviva 04:39, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Delete as spam.--Dmol 12:15, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Weak keep - it is used generically in the UK by mechanics etc as any detergent to rub into your hands to get rid of grease etc. SemperBlotto 12:19, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Changed to strong keep - over 700 google book hits, many from scientific journals. SemperBlotto 12:25, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Definitely remove company sense. Not being British I had never heard of this, but these and a smattering of Book/Scholar hits strongly indicate generic use to refer to certain detergent compounds. -- Visviva 12:31, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

After finally actually looking at the definition (!) I have rewritten it as a noun, and added a few citations. SemperBlotto 14:57, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

The 1987 quotation is mention-only. You seem to be saying this is in widespread use in the U.K., but it would still be nice to have quotations that demonstrate the term meets CFI. :-) —Ruakh_TALK 15:28, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

I can confirm that the term is (was?) used in the Netherlands. I know it from my undergraduate chemistry labs. Jcwf 16:07, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Keep Παρατηρητής

router

Ancient vandalism [1] that went undetected (original sense's example still with that incorrect, redundant sense.) While there may be a desire to list the literal back-formation definition, it should be listed after the real definition, perhaps as a sub-sense (the back-formation meaning "dispatcher", I'm not convinced even exists, but that would be a question for RFV.) But even if attested, it would still be redundant (or "by extension" or whatever.) --Connel MacKenzie 00:42, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand. Firstly, the sense that you tagged (sense #1) was not the sense added in the diff you linked to (sense #4). Secondly, neither sense #1 nor sense #4 seems like it could plausibly be a backformation. Thirdly, sense #1 doesn't seem even remotely arguably redundant, while sense #4 is after whatever the "real" definition might be, in that it's the very last definition. All told, I'm really not sure what sense you're talking about and what you're trying to say about it. —Ruakh_TALK 00:53, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I am also confused, but note that sense 1 is attested back at least to 1927 in the field of logistics. However, inasmuch as the uses I have found refer to a job title rather than a simple description, they might need a separate sense. Senses 3 and 4 do seem likely to be redundant (defining the same thing in different ways). -- Visviva 03:03, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I would rather say that senses 2 and 3 describe the same thing... where as sense 4, maybe similar but could be distinctly different...--BigBadBen 20:10, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

• Keep now attested RfD'd sense. Agnostic on other improvement potential. Start over if more cleanup, verification, deletion required. DCDuring TALK 23:14, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

router as power tool

Made a new section to keep original discussion clear. -- Algrif 11:21, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

While we're about it...Isn't the power tool definition a different etymology and pronunciation? -- Algrif 16:26, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't know about the etymology, but in UK the power tool is pronounced and the other uses . I believe in the US the pronunciation is used for all senses. Thryduulf 16:56, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Power tool router is from the verb to rout (which needs some work, btw), while the other senses are from the verb to route. -- Algrif 23:49, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

• I hope you don't think I've jumped the gun, but I've separated the power tool out to a separate etymology. -- Algrif 13:40, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

birthday party

Unlike birthday present (see WT:TR#birthday present), this seems to be SOP in both English and all the languages for which translations have been entered. If so then its value as a phrasebook entry would seem limited. Thryduulf 16:57, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Um, distinguishes from a political party? Keep. Harmless. bd2412 T 23:33, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Delete; just as "Halloween party", "Christmas party", "keg party", etc. The context of which definition of (deprecated template usage) party is intended is clear from the pairing with (deprecated template usage) birthday. --EncycloPetey 14:50, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Delete just have party

Do we have any statistics on passive pageviews by anons? There really ought to be some reflection of the interest of our users in an entry in the RfD process. There may be some common collocations (that also form phrases, probably noun phrases) that should be in here for users. Or is this only for smart, alert useers? I suspect that this would be oft-visited. Based on that suspicion, 1,390,000 raw web hits, 235,000 raw news hits, 1900 b.g.c. hits, and 353,000 groups hits: keep. DCDuring TALK 11:00, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

How many hits would you get for the Bible? Does that mean we should have an entry for the Bible? No. We don't use number of hits for a juxtaposition of words to justify it as an entry. Most such common juxtapositions are the result of regular English grammar. --EncycloPetey 18:35, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Keg party seems okay to me, also wedding party, but this one I have a hard time justifying. It's the principal meaning of party, and it's not really used figuratively, so rather than deconstructing a sum-of-parts collocation the only reason to keep it would be to discover it if construction were not straightforward. But as to that, it apparently makes a poor phrasebook entry as well. DAVilla 05:24, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Fairly harmless, but delete if you want. Παρατηρητής

Arian heresy

[ Arian Heresy ]

An encyclopedic concept; this is what Wikipedia is for. Dmcdevit·t 05:55, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Arian and heresy should certainly have words, but the combination is encyclopedic material. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 06:12, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

But wait! It's an Egyptian pyramid! Delete, even though it sort of is one: encyclopedic, compositional, and generally useless for dictionary purposes. -- Visviva 09:59, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

At least a search for "Arian Heresy" will find "Arian", "arian", "arianism", and "heresy". (Analog would be true for Egyptian pyramid.) DCDuring TALK 15:12, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Keep, on the basis of Egyptian pyramid. There is no way to know what this means from the simple assembly of parts. It is a particular ideology, and refers to a specific set of beliefs, like gnosticism or Zoroastrianism, albeit a bit more specific and esoteric. --EncycloPetey 14:44, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

If you know that Arian is an adjective formed from w:Arius, then you know something about it. The details would be findable in an encyclopedia, most assuredly under Arianism. DCDuring TALK 15:17, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

This term is a pejorative for Arianism, a neutral term. Are we, in some way, enshrining the POV of Catholicism? Should that, together with the ease of finding all the associated entries via search, influence our application of the rules? The pairing of evaluative words with the labels of beliefs seems to exemplify SoP. This is a good case for considering what I feel is an issue because the controversy is not heated in the eyes of very many observers (although on WP "Arian heresy" redirects to "Arian controversy"). It seems to me like "American Imperialism" or "Soviet Imperialism". DCDuring TALK 15:17, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Including the name, if it is otherwise worthy of inclusion, is not a breach of neutrality; it's what we're here for. But Category:Heresies should probably go. -- Visviva 15:28, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

How does this differ from "Soviet Imperialism" or Soviet imperialism? DCDuring TALK 15:48, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Primarily in that, as far as I can tell, "Soviet imperialism" really is just Soviet + imperialism. It doesn't mean Sovietism as such, but rather imperialism of the Soviet Union. On the other hand, "Arian heresy" or rather "the Arian heresy" seems to have the specific referents "Arianism" and "body of the church supporting Arianism." It does not automatically mean "a heresy which is Arian," as one might suppose; this is borne out by the overwhelming use of the definite article. -- Visviva 02:02, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

This one has been bothering me. Put me down for a reluctant keep, inasmuch as the specific definition (Arianism) is not particularly clear from the sum of the parts (unless you already know what Arianism is, in which case you probably won't be looking it up). It definitely does need to be moved to Arian heresy; hardly anyone capitalizes the "H." There also seem to be two senses, the Arianism one and another which turns up in phrases like "bishop of the Arian heresy" ([2]), in which case I guess it refers specifically to the ecclesiastical faction supporting Arianism. Interestingly Arianism itself is never used in this way. -- Visviva 15:28, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I never expect a monolingual dictionary entry to enable me to understand something like Arianism. At most I expect it to confirm spelling, provide synonyms (if any), and provide some context (time period, geography, field of study or endeavor) for where I could find more. It is very hard to say what the substance (no pun intended) of the controversy was in a dictionary entry. DCDuring TALK 15:48, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, sure, but we're not trying to enable people to understand Arianism, just to enable them to understand that this is a non-obvious synonym for Arianism. -- Visviva 02:02, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Keep. Cf. Cartesian plane, abelian group.—msh210℠ 16:21, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Keep if it's a collocation. To sum from parts would require knowing more than the definitions of each word. DAVilla 07:12, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

ring

A bunch of interspersed redundant senses. --22:59, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm presuming that you are wanting to merge the following noun senses:

• "A round piece of metal put around a bird's leg used for identification and studies of migration." (3) with "A circumscribing object (looking like an annual ring, earring, finger ring, etc.)" (1).
• "A circular arena where circus acts take place, a circus ring." (5) with "A place where some sports take place; as, a boxing ring." (4)

If so, I can see what you mean about 4 and 5, although the definition of 4 would need to be modified slightly to note that it isn't just sports that take place in that sort of ring.

I disagree that the specific bird ring sense is redundant to the general circumscribing object one though. A ring around a birds leg is used to uniquely identify that bird for various reasons, this is not true of any other sort of ring that I can think of.

Regarding the verb senses, I disagree that any of them can be merged. Thryduulf 23:11, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I can't see the verb senses being combined in any way. But both should be expanded a bit.--Dmol 23:53, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I think that deleting senses usually laughable for us in a common polysemic word like this. For ety 1, MW3 has 28 senses for the noun + 14 subsenses, 10 + 2 for the verb. For ety 2, noun 6 + 2, 14 + 4 for the verb; for a grand total of 80 senses. It seems as if we should figure out how to make sure we have all the main senses covered and context-labelled, and grouped and sequenced so they provide mutual support. DCDuring TALK 00:29, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

A boxing ring is not always circular; to quote w:Boxing ring, "A boxing ring is the space in which a boxing match occurs. A modern ring, which is set on a raised platform, is square with a post at each corner to which four parallel rows of ropes are attached with a turnbuckle." On the other hand I believe that circus rings are generally circular, or at least round, in shape. -- Visviva 06:34, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Bird rings are not always round pieces of metal. Their main purpose is to identify, not to be round. -- Algrif 16:05, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Don't they always sit around something, though?—msh210℠ 18:39, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

They usually do, but they can come off and are still rings. I presume (but don't know) that before they are applied to a bird they are neither ring-shaped nor enclosing anything. Although it is possible they have a different name before they're applied, my guess is that this is not the case. Thryduulf 19:15, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

I believe the bird sense is also specifically UK, as indicated by the Wikipedia article. At least, in the US I have always heard these referred to as "bands." -- Visviva 04:05, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

That's evidence enough for me for a UK tag. Thryduulf 13:13, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

soviet

Adjective sense: "pertaining to a soviet." Seems like just attributive use of the noun? -- Visviva 01:52, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

I have provided 3 citations of the comparative use of soviet, some capitalized. They support a different sense. If there is enough evidence for a different sense of the uncapitalized form that truly forms a comparative, then it might be kind to users to keep the attributive sense, both for the distinction and for a kind of etymology. DCDuring TALK 14:18, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

I have provided 4 quotations with adjectival use that does not seen like attributive use of the uncapitalized form and moved the cites of the capitalized form to Soviet. I think they make a case for keeping the RfD's sense and for some other sense(s). I have added one, but it doesn't reflect all usage. It is tedious to cite because Google's basic search doesn't separate cap from non-cap forms and there are vastly more uses of the capitalized form, used as a noun, used atributively in the same sense as the noun, and used in adjectival senses more distantly derived from the noun or from "Soviet-style". DCDuring TALK 14:59, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for that. To me, the citations you added seem like an alternative capitalization of Soviet (and as such worthy of retention). But I would still argue that the tagged sense be deleted, inasmuch as it is not an adjective. If this is noted, and it probably should be, it should be as a usage note under the noun. -- Visviva 00:36, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't have very strong feelings on the point. My thinking is that, if we have one sense that merits entry (meets CFI), then we may serve our users best by including senses that would not otherwise meet CFI but might confuse the user. If the sense that meets CFI is only an alternative spelling, I don't know. But I have been thinking that we need to include gloss-like entries where possible for links that are targets of alt sp, past of, pre part, etc., unless doing so would be misleading or excessively lengthy. Save'em the clicks, I say. DCDuring TALK 01:50, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Agree in principle -- that information should be available on the page -- but think we need to be fairly strict about what actually qualifies as a distinct sense. -- Visviva 01:42, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

We don't yet have enough citations, either. I'll have to try something besides b.g.c. It may just be an alternative spelling, I'm not really sure that it is all that common, although I limited my search to use in comparatives or adverbially modified without quotation marks. DCDuring TALK 03:49, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

• Delete rfd'd sense. No evidence of use except as attributive use of noun. DCDuring TALK 18:12, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

recognized components

This was added by a bot from an article somewhere (not Wikipedia). Is it any more than a sum of parts? Dbfirs

It was probably created from the singular. That singular was deleted by SB, leaving this orphan. Would you like to put the singular form through RfD on these grounds? It lookls like it is some vocabulary used in the UL process for electrical devices. DCDuring TALK 20:49, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Searching on '"recognized component" UL' gets 75 raw b.g.c. hits. It certainly isn't SoP because it relates to a specific important approval process which is probably essential to allowing goods to become salable in the US. I don't much care about the plural, but the singular should be a keep, or rather a restore and rfc. DCDuring TALK 20:56, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I suppose the "recognized by the US Government" sense might be worth recording (just) - but isn't this officially Recognized Component Mark? Dbfirs 22:31, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

UL is a not-for-profit funded by the insurance industry. It seems to be used commonly more or less as entered. There mere fact that there is an official definition doesn't necessarily mean that much, unless actually usage "wants" to conform to that definition. People don't spend a lot of time making sure that trade-mark and service-mark appear every place the mark holder would like them to, nor are we obligated to uphold their trademark. In any event, I will restore the singular and edit it into shape for our consideration. DCDuring TALK 23:58, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

bridal wear

bridal (sense 1 "of or pertaining to a bride") + wear (noun sense 1 "clothing") = bridal wear ("clothing worn by a bride") = sum of parts. Thryduulf 21:12, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Weak keep. Bridal wear can also mean lingerie but this is different from the intended meaning. Maybe needs another definition. Search google images for a few examples. (Purely for research purposes, of course).--Dmol 22:19, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

PS, There are also regional and cultural differences in what the term means, even within the same country. We might think of bridal wear as white flowing silk, but to someone else it is bright coloured saris or a kimino.--Dmol 09:08, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

It could also be the erosion that happens as a result of wedding day stress ;) --EncycloPetey 14:58, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

But that definition of (deprecated template usage) wear says "in combination". Why isn't it bridalwear? DAVilla 05:30, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I think that most sum of parts combinations can be melded in a few ways: x y, x-y, xy. This does not overcome the SOP issue. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 05:44, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

If this is to go, then wedding cake, wedding dress and wedding ring are also in danger zone? Hekaheka 09:49, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

bowdacious

This is hardly a common spelling of bodacious - almost all the first 2 pages of web hits are mentions (including Wikionary), of those that are uses only a fraction appear independent of the first one. 21 books hits, the ones I can see are roughly 50% mentions. A Google groups search returns a whopping 6 results, only 4 of which are independent and one of the others might be a use. Compare this to 230,000 groups results for "bodacious". Thryduulf 16:34, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Could you remind of the difference between an alternate form and a misspelling? Or eye dialect and misspelling? I thought I knew based on prior experience with other entries here, but I'm losing confidence. This isn't eye-dialect because eye dialect would be "phonetic" throughout ("bowdayshus")? It's not an alternate form because .... ? DCDuring TALK 15:30, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Rainbow Brite

It seems I RFD'd this in june last year. one of our fictional characters from the Care Bears. -Keene2 19:54, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Delete --EncycloPetey 14:51, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Seems to be citable, e.g. Chicken Soup for the Recovering Soul, Stephen King's The Tommyknockers, lots of books on young children and others. DAVilla 17:42, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

hwyl

Sense 5 seems to be just a special case of sense 3, but I don't speak Welsh, so I cannot judge accurately. Dbfirs 23:30, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Don't you think they mean proselytizing or proselytising ? DCDuring TALK 23:51, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I think they're distinct. I read sense 3 as being a character trait epitomised by non-conformist preachers, whereas sense 5 is the name of a method of prosthletising employed by preachers (who may or may not be non-conformist). Only senses 2 (fun) and 4 (sail) are listed in my (basic) English-Welsh dictionary so I am not sure. Thryduulf 23:54, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps this will shed some light on it. I didn't realize that all five senses were in some way part of the same meaning. Another meaning seems to be personal "state", although that might be an abstraction of mood. GTTR. DCDuring TALK 01:29, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately I can't see a preview of that book (it is not unknown for different regions to see or not see different works on bgc), so I can't say one way or another. Thryduulf 01:56, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I can't see the book either, but I accept the shade of meaning, so I've removed the rfd and corrected the spelling (which is what brought me to the entry in the first place). Thanks. Dbfirs 21:29, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I am distressed that the two of you can't use the link. Any thoughts on why? Browser related? Does this problem arise in entries? I thought that I could paste a link and thereby provide all the context anyone would need for our more stringent attestation test. If I can't, ..... DCDuring TALK 01:07, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

From past experience of this (sometime last year), it is almost certainly a region thing. Dbfirs and I are both in the UK, whereas I believe you are in the USA or Canada. The most likely explanation for the difference is Google being cautious over copyright issues. Thryduulf 01:47, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

‘Writers very often mystify matters by using words that are not intelligible to their readers. Some with the air of classical knowledge will tell us that “hwyl” is an “affiatus;” and a good many readers will ask, “What is an affiatus?” They may as well aver that “hwyl” is a kind of atmospheric disturbance cause by windmills. It is mere rhetorical enthusiasm. It is a nautical metaphor. “Hwyl” is a “sail;” and when the Welsh say that a man is in a good “hwyl,” they mean that he is moving along or enjoying himself immensely, navigating gloriously on a sea of good feeling. When a man enters into a discussion of a subject enthusiastically, he is said to be “sailing” into it, which is exactly the Welsh idea of “hwyl.” It is somewhat akin to spread-eagleism in politics. The Welsh word “hwyl” is used  generally in a good and, par excellence, in a religious sense. There is, however, one peculiar characteristic of this hwyl which is especially Welsh. This is the peculiar cadences of the Welsh preacher when he is on the high sea of inspiration, when in a grand breeze and with all sails spread, he moves majestically to the goal of his sermon.’ —Ruakh_TALK 02:01, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

heavy roller

See #light roller

light roller

Both heavy roller and light roller are the sum of roller (sense 3, explicitly marked as "cricket") and the primary sense of both heavy and light. Thryduulf 16:36, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Given that a roller is "a heavy rolling device", would you suspect that (deprecated template usage) heavy roller isn't merely a redundant term, or for that matter that a light roller is "a heavy rolling device"? I'm okay with keeping these, but if not there would have to be a lot more explanation at (deprecated template usage) roller. DAVilla 17:56, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I would favor keeping both of these because they name specific physical items. At least that's how I understand it, since I've never heard of either of these items before (coming as I do from a land where (deprecated template usage) cricket principally refers to an insect). --EncycloPetey 21:48, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Keep both - specific meanings in cricket (played in some Greek islands). Παρατηρητής

en zo voorts

For correct spelling see: here Jcwf 23:53, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

April 2008

internet block

Internet-block

SoP.—msh210℠ 18:50, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

It isn’t the sum of the parts. The sum of the parts could means, for example a physical barrier which prevents a user plugging a computer into a modem. That could also prevent a user accessing the Internet.

An Internet block is a specific type of computer programme. Barbara Shack 19:09, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Note also that among the first 31 Google Books results for internet-block, just one (by Guthrie) seems to be with this meaning, and it has a capitalized initial I. The rest have commas between the words, or the like, or refer to a block of IP addresses. The remaining five Books results are invisible to me.—msh210℠ 19:15, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

I've capitalized it and added a hyphen. Is it OK now?Barbara Shack 19:27, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

It still seems to me, at least, to be a SoP. Others will have their say on that issue, and, doubtless, some of the regulars here will disagree with me. As to whether it's attested (which is what the Google Books results are for), we still have only one result (and it has no hyphen, incidentally; I'm not sure why you added one); can you find more? But attestation is an issue for Requests for verification, not here; and if the consensus here is that this term is not a SoP, then I will recommend moving the discussion to that page for an attempt to find attestation.—msh210℠ 19:32, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

This fails just like and for the same reason that virus checker, virus scanner, and spam blocker all fail, they are simply SoP names of types of programs. An internet-block is software which blocks the internet, a virus checker is software which checks for viruses. There is no information beyond what is contained in the name which requires definition. - [The]DaveRoss 20:35, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Move to RFV or delete. If I thought this phrase were real and always had this meaning, I wouldn't be ready to call it SOP, but I don't, so I am. :-) —Ruakh_TALK 22:37, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Move to RfV to see if some orthography for this has the meaning given: roughly, "selective user-computer internet-site blocker". This longer phrase would seem to be SoP. The phrase in question doesn't quite seem that way because it would seem to me to allow for governmental blocking software not installed on user machines, complete blocking of the open internet while allowing access to intranets, etc. Or am I missing something? DCDuring TALK 15:27, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

The way I've used the term, an internet block is not a program, it is a sequential set or IP adresses (usually specified by a mask). RJFJR 19:23, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Delete - rubbish. Παρατηρητής

Family Feud

If the show meets CFI it needs to be split out, but I do not think it does. --Connel MacKenzie 07:35, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Even an inclusionist like me thinks it should be removed. SemperBlotto 07:19, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand why these things, which regularly survive based on citations, are pushed into RfD instead of RfV. Is it because they can be deleted more quickly? The Proper Noun needs its own entry. The show is used allusively often and attributively on occasion. Why the bias against pop culture? DCDuring TALK 11:53, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Most of the bias against "pop culture" is due to incessant spam from the various media outlets - media outlets that in turn try to get a name out there any way they can - even if it mean crap loading here. (I'm not saying that is necessarily the case here; I'm answering your more general question.) All reasonable dictionaries prohibit product and company names, for many other reasons. But being on the internet, we are a finer target - reasonably, we absolutely should take a much harder line than major print dictionaries. Ans a much harder line than we currently do. --Connel MacKenzie 11:04, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

I've put the proper noun where it belongs. DCDuring TALK 12:01, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

RFV (or just keep per citations:Family Feud).—msh210℠ 19:14, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

The citations on citations:Family Feud are not idiomatic, referring to actual teleivision show (ex: "watching the new Family Feud"). As such, delete.--TBC 13:31, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

head

"Front of a queue" sense. Isn't this just the "foremost part" sense? Does anyone ever say "you can go to the head" when they mean "you can go to the head of the line"? -- Visviva 07:38, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

"At the head of the queue" and "go to the head of the queue" are the most common formulations, "come to the head of the queue" is rarer. When the context is firmly established as being the position in a queue, you could say "You can go to the head" or "I'm at the head", but in both cases I would use either the word "front" instead of "head" or include the word "queue". In other words, delete sense. Thryduulf 11:01, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Can we look at some of the other senses, too, and the rfc, while we're at it? These multi-sense words are killers. Grouping can help a bit. Some of the entries with contexts are closely associated with a more generic sense, more figurative with more concrete (e.g. pus/crisis).

1. 2nd sense "any round object". A ball or sphere is not automatically a head.
2. The sense for hammer/axe head is worded to include striking tools so the business end of a lacrosse stick needs to mentioned separately and other non-striking tools and other implements that have parts called heads that are not included.
3. It doesn't seem to have a good sense for head of lettuce, cauliflower, etc.
4. The sense for nail doesn't seem to include screw.
5. Anyone who is willing to take this on should go to the head of the class. DCDuring TALK 01:29, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

1. No, but many round masses are called heads. I have replaced "any" with "a"; is that sufficient?

2. I'm not really familiar with lacrosse terminology, but my understanding is that the rationale for this is similar to the rationale for the guitar sense; it refers to not to the business/top/working end of the stick, but to a very specific part of the stick. As for other tools, I'm sure it's true, but examples would be helpful. Some, like "head of a rake," might be covered by the principal-operating-part sense; or the striking-tool sense might need to be reworded to encompass all hand tools.

3. I guess it depends on whether a seed/flower head and a lettuce head are basically the same thing. My first inclination when reorganizing the defs was actually to put the lettuce example under sense 2; i.e. a head-shaped lump of lettuce, not a capitulum of lettuce -- but other dictionaries seem to disagree.

4. Huh? Why not? The definition mentions screws, and people talk about the heads of screws all the time.

6. I'd be surprised if the pustulent-abscess and crisis senses have any connection; it seems more likely that it is derived from the tendency for the head of the abscess to become round and swollen with pus. -- Visviva 08:34, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm so sorry. I hadn't looked at the edit history. Wow! This is so much improved that I feel like I'm just quibbling, but quibble we must:

1. I'm not so sure that a round mass not connected to something to make a non-round whole would be said to have a head. The comet usage example is an illustration. Maybe it just has to say "part" in the def.
2. Too bad "business end" is too idiomatic for defining vocabulary. It seems almost a synonym for some of the senses of head.
   1. The ball-carrying part of a lacrosse stick is the business end. The stick is used (within the rules) for carrying the ball and for holding it while throwing it.
   2. Not just hand tools, but power tools, including industrial ones, also often have heads.
   3. MW3 has 11 subsenses for the sense closest to this (75+ subsenses for "head" as a whole).
3. I had never known the word capitulum; MW3 uses it as a subsense for an undefined sense, the other half of which is the head-of-lettuce sense.
4. I think I need another monitor so I can see what I'm writing about while I'm writing. I seem to misrember things. (ie, screw/nail). Huh, indeed.
5. You are the usage example for head of the class.
6. I recently got that crisis/abscess relationship from some non-authoritative, but credible source (Crystal or Pinker, I think). They didn't offer any support for the assertion. It seemed to give me a litte aha moment.
7. Is a well-head ever referred to as the head of a well?

Having a long, single-level list of senses made me use my printer to try to hand-make a hierarchy. A two-level (even three-level hierarchy, as in my MW3) is a little bit of a help in grouping somewhat related definitions. Why is that not done here? The use of "#" allows it technically. DCDuring TALK 11:09, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

7. Seems so. [3] But this is arguably covered by the "topmost part" sense. -- Visviva 12:21, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Maybe we should move this discussion back to RfC. Regarding subsenses, I was thinking about the same thing and put together one possible mockup at User:Visviva/head. I agree that this leads to much improved readability, but a) MediaWiki's handling of ## seems less than ideal (it's confusing to have multiple "sense 2's"), and b) if this were going to be implemented on more than an experimental basis, it would require thorough community discussion and a revision of WT:ELE, particularly since some additional fiddling with indentation rules is required. -- Visviva 12:21, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

RfC seems like the right forum. I'm going to collect prior discussions about subsenses and put the links on a user page somewhere. DCDuring TALK 13:47, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Regarding MediaWiki's handling of ##, it would be ideal to have senses labelled as 6, 6.1, 6.2, 7, etc. I would assume that doing this will require a mod by a developer to allow this behaviour to be set on a per-project basis rather than being js or css hackable?

If it does require a developer mod, then we will need to show overwhelming support to have any hope of anything being done this side of 2012. Where do we have the discussion about this? Thryduulf 16:01, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually it is CSS-hackable; MediaWiki just generates <ol> and <li> tags for the list and leaves the rest to the browser. Not sure how feasible it is to have one level numeric and one level alphabetic (which IMO would be ideal), but there must be a way. -- Visviva 00:16, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

The options described at http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/generate.html#propdef-list-style-type are supported by most halfway-modern browsers (though IIRC not IE 6); something like ol > li > ol { list-style-type: lower-alpha; } would do what you describe (as would just ol ol { list-style-type: lower-alpha; }; the former would only affect ordered-lists that are immediate children of ordered-list elements, while the latter would affect any ordered-list that's a descendant of another). I have no thoughts how to do what Thryduulf describes, barring JavaScript that finds them, sets their list-style-type to none, and inserts the right pattern at the beginning of their content — though that would have the down-side of moving the list markers inside the list. To keep the list markers outside the list and do this would be even more complicated. All told, a great thought, but probably not worth it. —Ruakh_TALK 00:37, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

What I currently have here seems to implement Thryduulf's suggestion fairly well, at least on FF/Windows; however, it may cause undesirable effects with other types of lists. -- Visviva 04:14, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh, wow. One of these days I should re-read the CSS 2.1 spec; I had so completely forgotten that those properties even existed, to the extent that they don't even look familiar! At least, I should re-read it before the next time I decide something is impossible. :-P   Anyway, good work. :-)   Something like this would be even better:

ol { counter-reset: subitem }
ol > li { counter-increment: subitem }
ol ol > li { display: block }
ol ol > li:before { content: counters(subitem, ".") ". " }

since for the top-level it would retain the benefits of actual list style (e.g. the ability to have list-style-position be outside, as it is by default; we can halfway-simulate this with something like ol > li { text-indent: -1.5em }, and maybe we should do so for the nested lists if no one can think of a better way, but for the outer list there's no need).

—Ruakh_TALK 11:55, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

This would have to go to BP and Vote, I'm pretty sure. There has, unsurprisingly, been discussion of this: Wiktionary:Beer_parlour_archive/2007/May#subdividing_definitions and Talk:quaint, for example. There are probably other discussions, but I'd rather someone selected a good one that they were involved in rather than me trying to determine the quality and import of something I wasn't involved in. It's worth a review of the prior discussion before we reopen it to see if the issue looks different this time. There also might be something else we could do that was less dramatic to improve the definitions for long, basic, highly polysemic words. We seem to be a little light on guidelines, let alone policy, in this area. There are a few examples of subsenses for particular words. Widsith has been a reasoned advocate of subsenses. Most of the ongoing head additional-sense discussion is back at rfc. DCDuring TALK 17:39, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

tincidunt

This does not appear in my Classical dictionaries, but that does not mean it isn't a word in New Latin. The problem is that many of the 206 Google cites (linked on the page) are dubious. One of the cites I looked at was otherwise in German, with (deprecated template usage) tincidunt in the middle of it. Many others I looked at seem to be books about software packages, but written in Latin!? I am very confused by all this. Do we have a neologism here? A protologism? Or soomething else? --EncycloPetey 15:55, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

• This is not in my Latin dictionary either - and I can't even figure out what verb is might be a form of. SemperBlotto 16:24, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
• Every bgc result (IINM) is in a lorem ipsum. (There must be some software used by all these authors that generates a lorem ipsum including the word tincidunt.)—msh210℠ 19:15, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
  • So do we delete this, or keep it, since so many books have it, but with a note that it's not a word and has no meaning?—msh210℠ 16:09, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
    • I'm don't think it meets the current CFI, except perhaps for the “general rule” that “A term should be included if it's likely that someone would run across it and want to know what it means.”^link Indeed, that seems to be the reason this entry was created: an anonymous editor found it in lorem-ipsum text generated by a certain lorem-ipsum–generating Web site, and despite knowing the purpose of the site, seemed to believe that it was a real word (which does make sense, seeing as the original lorem ipsum was a corrupted version of an actual Latin text, and one might well expect words in lorem-ipsum text to be real Latin words). So, move to RFD and ponder the nature of meaning. :-) —Ruakh_TALK 23:44, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Preceding is from RFV. Please continue discussion here.—msh210℠ 21:39, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

• Keep. to be nice to users who might not be familiar with lorem ipsum, as Ruakh suggested. DCDuring TALK 14:56, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

  There is at least one other way of being nice, so I take back my keep vote until the finessing more-or-less within-the-rules approach suggested below is evaluated. DCDuring TALK 11:43, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Keep, as it is used and someone may want to find out what it means (or in this case refers to). sewnmouthsecret 15:04, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

• Comments. (1) It's obviously meant to look like Latin (especially considering the text always found around it). But it's not Latin. If we keep this, what language header do we use? (2) and what part of speech? (3) I suspect that there are many other terms in tincidunt's class: non-words that are frequently found in lorem-ipsum text. If we keep this, presumably we'll keep all such.—msh210℠ 22:29, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

  The lorem ipsum entry calls "lorem ipsum" an English noun. It does not have any attestation.

  Perhaps we could finesse the problem. Perhaps we could include "text" including "tincidunt" (not now present in the entry) in the "lorem ipsum" article. That way at least the search engine would lead a user to a place that gave an explanation. (BTW, it would be nice if we could also find at least one real usage example for "lorem ipsum" as a noun. It would also be nice if we had some discussion there about the term on its talk page.) DCDuring TALK 00:39, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

  I have found a few cites of "lorem ipsum" being used as a noun for attestation. I have also found a short nonsense quote in which it is used with "tincidunt", which I have inserted in the lorem ipsum entry. Once the article gets re-indexed, it should direct search to that entry as well as "tincidunt". That would make our decisions about "tincidunt" and the precedent it might set a little easier. DCDuring TALK 01:05, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

  A search for "tincidunt" would find the cited noun entry "lorem ipsum", which is used in English. DCDuring TALK 11:43, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

  I would have thought one of the key points of lorem ipsum is that it is ==Translingual== . -- Visviva 15:22, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

  I wouldn't object to such altering of lorem ipsum. I was just interested in whether we could stick to the form of our practice about PoS and citation, preferably both for lorem ipsum and tincidunt. We seem to be able to do it for lorem ipsum under one of English or Translingual header. I see how by finesse to include in search "tincidunt" and many other frequently occuring pseudo-words without having to have new entries for them, but I don't see how they can be entries under our existing rules. Nor do I particularly want to if search would take a user to an informative lrem ipsum entry. DCDuring TALK 15:59, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

  Well, I think that "lorem ipsum" itself is probably a valid English term, but that the words (or word-like objects) which occur in lorem ipsum passages are best regarded as translingual. IMO the same arguments that apply to having entries for nonsense Hangul sylables that have never been used to convey meaning -- which the community recently decided was desirable -- would apply at least as strongly to lorem ipsum words, which at least are used for some purpose. Given the structure of Wiktionary, I would say that if we are going to cover such words in mainspace, they should each be given their own entry. If not, they could simply be listed in Appendix:Lorem ipsum. -- Visviva 09:59, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

  An appendix is only useful if you know what you are looking for or at least realize that are appendices to search. It's one drawback to citation space. There are many more users who don't know than who do. DCDuring TALK 11:16, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

  Fixed formatting slightly (my goof). Fair enough, but if these are worthy of mainspace inclusion -- and they certainly do provide some user value, if only to let the user know that this is not a real word -- I think they really do need their own individual entries. -- Visviva 14:04, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

• I don't, because they're never used as words. They're nonsense text that appear in a single, specific (albeit widely circulated) "text". The text is in pseudo-Latin, which is not a language and has no ISO code. The individual "words" are never used in Latin nor in any other language I know of. --EncycloPetey 15:35, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

  I don't see how that would make them any worse than random Hangul syllables which are never used to convey meaning, but which the community unanimously decided were desirable because someone might want to know that they are not words (or something like that). At least there is plausible reason to think that someone might actually imagine that tincidunt (et al.) are words, and need to be disabused of the notion. -- Visviva 10:37, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

  The differences are: (1) Hangul syllables are used to assemble words. So, just as we have entries for the letters of the Roman alphabet, we have entries for Hangul syllables. (2) Hangul syllables have a language header; tincidunt does not because it is not used in any language. --EncycloPetey 18:06, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

  Good point, EncycloPetey (15:35, 20 April 2008 (UTC)). All the cites are from the same widely distributed lorem ipsum. So they're not independent, right?—msh210℠ 18:21, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

tío materno

Sum of parts. Spanish, like English, has no word especially for maternal or paternal relatives. Dmcdevit·t 05:03, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Delete, I guess, except that it seems silly to delete it as long as we still have maternal uncle. —Ruakh_TALK 12:50, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

tío paterno

Sum of parts. Spanish, like English, has no word especially for maternal or paternal relatives. Dmcdevit·t 05:03, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

How else would you know that it doesn’t simply mean a "fatherly uncle"? —Stephen 20:32, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

abuelo paterno

Sum of parts. Spanish, like English, has no word especially for maternal or paternal relatives. Dmcdevit·t 05:03, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

R.E.M.

American-rock-band sense. —Ruakh_TALK 11:41, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

From a help-the-normal-user perspective, I've never understood why such a sense is a bad thing. Maybe we could make the sense line slightly more informative and include a link to the WP article. DCDuring TALK 11:59, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Delete sense - it's purely encyclopedic. bd2412 T 02:26, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Keep. Proper, yes, but still part of the English lexicon. DAVilla 06:13, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

maternal uncle

Sum of parts: useful only as a place to hang translations. (Unlike some editors, I'm not thoroughly opposed to having such a place in cases like this where a lot of languages make this distinction; but if we're going to do that, the entry should be structured so as to make that clear, and it should only include the translations that rightfully hang there. A lot of the translations we currently list are either catch-all words for "uncle", or equally-SOP translations.) —Ruakh_TALK 12:54, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Is it really sum of parts? A genealogically naive user might assume it means "mother's uncle." -- Visviva 13:02, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Or a matronly uncle. —Stephen 13:24, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Keep. Not sum of parts. No combination of maternal or uncle will define the term without ambiguity.--Dmol 14:16, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Necessary, and desirable, in English. Translations which are SOP should have their component words wikilinked separately. Widsith 20:46, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

So, question: would y'all argue that since (deprecated template usage) maternal brother isn't already taken as a genealogical term, it might indeed indicate a mother's brother, or to a motherly brother? It's true that (deprecated template usage) maternal has multiple senses, but I believe that (deprecated template usage) maternal <relative> has only one, and various examples of this fact are all SOP. —Ruakh_TALK 03:57, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

No, I would say that "maternal brother" can only mean a brother who is quite motherly. At any rate, it is pretty confusing to interpret it any other way. More to the point, it is an almost non-existant phrase, whereas maternal uncle is a very common collocation, and furthermore is idiomatic in the sense that this is the most natural way to express the concept in English. Widsith 05:41, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, all the b.g.c. hits I can find for "maternal brother" use it to mean "brother with whom ego shares a mother" only... however, a web search for "maternal brother"+"mother's brother" turns up a number of sites which appear to treat these phrases as synonymous. (For example, on a professor's course-notes website, "He notes in European stories the maternal brother is good and the father's brother is evil." [4]) This does seem to indicate that "maternal" can be polysemous even when applied to relatives, at least when the author is not paying strict attention. Personally, if I encountered "maternal brother" out of context, I wouldn't be sure which way to interpret it, if only because the notion of distinguishing siblings by shared parent is rather foreign to me. -- Visviva 06:00, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh yeah, good point. You could obviously have a maternal brother and a step-brother. Widsith 06:31, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

So if I may paraphrase: there's a strong tendency to interpret (deprecated template usage) maternal uncle as "uncle on one's mother's side", just as there's a strong tendency toward that interpretation of (deprecated template usage) maternal <relative> in all other cases. (Is that fair to say?) That doesn't sound like a ringing endorsement of the term's non-SOP-ness. —Ruakh_TALK 21:17, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Weak delete. --Bequw → ¢ • τ 23:15, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Keep. IMO reasonable doubt exists as to compositionality, and the value of this and related terms as translation-hangers adds some weight in favor of keeping. -- Visviva 14:49, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Harry Potter terms

I presume all the other wonderful Harry Potter coinages/meanings abide by the same policy?

• sieppi, seeker, quidditch, kvicken, dunkare, Voldemort, metloboj, tragač, אתה־יודע־מי ,הוגוורטס, Hogwarts, מוגל, Muggle, mugglare, Mudla, מחפש ,קווידיץ׳, metlobal

And probably a few others. For some of them RfD/RfV has already been placed. --Ivan Štambuk 13:04, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

From an above discussion, these should all be looked into and decided upon individually, most can be deleted without prejudice. - [The]DaveRoss 23:42, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but save sieppi. I have already deleted Harry Potter -sense, but the word has other meanings in Finnish. Hekaheka 20:45, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

(deprecated template usage) מחפש (m'khapés) is not just a Harry Potter term; it should be fixed rather than deleted. —Ruakh_TALK 03:25, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

quidditch is now a real sport. That will pass RFV or RFD. I imagine Muggle would pass, as well. sewnmouthsecret 20:49, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Of course these terms shouldn't be deleted outright if they aren't just HP terms. - [The]DaveRoss 21:12, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Native Californian

Seems strictly SoP. DCDuring TALK 11:30, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Keep. This isn't SoP, it's just incorrectly defined. It's a state-level equivalent of Native American. It refers not to those born in California, but to the indigenous people present in the region of the state before the arrival of Europeans, and to the descendants of those people. --EncycloPetey 13:05, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

You want to keep an incorrect sense on the grounds that there might be a real sense? I challenge the entry as it is. I've never heard of the usage you suggest. It is certainly plausible, but needs to be cited. If it is actually used as you say, we will have to keep the SoP meaning to clarify the distinction in use. I'd like see in what context it is used. DCDuring TALK 14:38, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I agree (or disagree, depending on how you look at it) with both of you. I would say that anyone trying to use the term "Native Californian" in the why it's defined would probably be considered wrong, so SoP isn't the issue ("native Californian" seems better), and the term is commonly used to refer to indigenous Californians. At the same time, I find it confusing, or even annoying, when people say "keep" for a bad sense, just because another attestable sense for that word exists. You don't really mean that you want to keep it, you mean "delete-it-but-oh-by-the-way-it-should-be-replace-by-this-meaning." In any case, I have deleted that sense, but oh by the way, I replaced it with EP's, and cites for it. :-) Dmcdevit·t 20:44, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

The problem is, a lot of admins don't give helpful deletion summaries, so a later reader (potential contributor) coming across a deleted entry is likely to think that we've rejected the sense they're thinking of. If there's not consensus to keep any of the currently defined sense, but there is consensus that the term has a real sense that warrants inclusion but that no one has added (for whatever reason), then I'd either (1) change the def to a {{substub}} or (2) delete the entry with a deletion summary that makes clear the need for a better entry. But either way, thanks for side-stepping that by adding the right sense. :-) —Ruakh_TALK 00:08, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Or maybe not. Someone born in California is a native Californian, but not Native Californian, I suppose. Edited the article using entry on "Native American" as a model. Hekaheka 20:37, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Grr, I just edit-conflicted you on the article, and the again here. I just put my version of the article in instead of yours; no hard feelings I hope. ;-) Our definitions were essentially the same, I just added citations for the senses. Dmcdevit·t 20:44, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

SoP sense has been deleted. Entry is now beautiful. It never occurred to me that this is what the phrase meant. In the northeastern US the state names aren't used that way. "Native New Yorker" just doesn't seem likely to be what a Native American from the Six Nations (Iroquois) would call themselves.

Does "Native Californian" merit a usage note or something to distinguish it from "native Californian"? DCDuring TALK 01:12, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

A usage note does seem in order for this entry. I expect that one reason that Native Californian is used, but that the construction is not used for other US states, is that (1) California is highly isolated geographically from surrounding, so indigenous peoples seldom migrated across what later became state borders, (2) there is a highly charged political issue concerning recognition of tribes and their lands in this state, (3) Native Arizonan, Native Oreganian, et.c just aren't as euphonious. --EncycloPetey 21:40, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

This entry is now lacking and misleading. The SoP sense filled the gap between the common meaning of the term and the relatively rare meaning (that we now currently have a definition for.) If the intent was to describe it in a usage note, that never happened. While Hekahaka's observation might be more correct than the common use, most bumper stickers will have the "N" capitalized. Even if pedantically it should be a small "N", it is instead capitalized, normally. Rejecting how the term is commonly used, for the sake of political correctness, seems directly opposite to Wiktionary's purpose. Furthermore, I see only two citations for each of the rare forms, not the requisite three. --Connel MacKenzie 19:24, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

If it makes you feel better, you seem to be wrong: the first few pages of google books:"native californian" and google:"native californian" are almost entirely in the sense we define. (Incidentally, this continues to be true if we ignore the uppercase-N hits.) —Ruakh_TALK 00:48, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

May 2008

-scribe

Characterized as a suffix. It is not. It is a "combining form", which we do not normally allow as an entry AFAIK. DCDuring TALK 18:12, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Delete Actually, this is not a combining form nor a suffix (at least in the examples cited). This is simply a Latin verb (scrībō) which is the etymon of a number of English words. Unless someone can find some words which are the result of an English suffix "-scribe" this really needs to go. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 18:41, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

If it were a combining form, would we keep it? Are you suggesting that this should be an RfV? DCDuring TALK 21:20, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Weak keep. This combining form has meaning to English speakers; just about every combination-word that I thought to Google, including (deprecated template usage) [http:／www.google.com/search?q=omniscribe omniscribe] and (deprecated template usage) [http:／www.google.com/search?q=retroscribe retroscribe] and (deprecated template usage) [http:／www.google.com/search?q=angloscribe angloscribe], had hits. I couldn't find any that seem to meet CFI; but they suggest to me that (deprecated template usage) -scribe itself might be worth including. (Of course, it would need to be fixed — firstly, to change "suffix" to "combining form", per DCDuring, and secondly, to make clear that the terms in the "Related terms" are just that, and not derived terms, per Atelaes, lest we give readers the wrong idea.) —Ruakh_TALK 23:59, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Delete. First;y, this isn't a suffix; it's a Latin root word. A suffix is an ending tacked onto a root, not a root itself. Nor is this an English combining root, well, at least not in the examples given. Each of those comes from a Latin source word formed from a preposition + (deprecated template usage) scrībō. That is, the combination was made in Latin, and the resulting combination was then transmitted into English. --EncycloPetey 00:39, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

This feels like the type of entry that should be well understood by English speakers, in which case there may be productive evidence that it has entered the English language. That is, it might be possible to find neologisms that were formed with an understanding of what this combining form means. But you're right that without that, it isn't an English term. DAVilla 05:57, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

have a bathe

Sum of parts. Thryduulf 18:30, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Delete DCDuring TALK 19:16, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Semper added have a bathe and have a bath. He wrote that the former means to "immerse oneself in the sea" and the latter "to wash oneself in a bath". If this is correct in whatever dialect, then I'd keep both to illustrate the difference, and use {{see}}. Can someone confirm this distinction?—msh210℠ 17:36, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I would never use "have a bath" to mean "immerse oneself in the sea", and using "have a bathe" to mean "wash ones self in the bath" rather than "have a relaxing soak in a bath" would be unusual ("have a bath" can mean the primary intention is either to get clean or to relax, and neither precludes the other as a side effect) - i.e. one can "bath" only in a bath, but one can "bathe" in either a bath or in the sea (or in any other body of liquid). So, yes there is a distinction, but to me though it is entirely that between the verb "bath" and the verb "bathe". Thryduulf 18:43, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Added content at bathe, including UK noun sense. -- Thisis0 21:17, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

have a bath

Sum of parts. Thryduulf 18:32, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Delete DCDuring TALK 19:16, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

See my comment above s.v. #have a bathe.—msh210℠ 17:37, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Keep, this doesn't mean "own a bath". "bath" doesn't even have a verb entry at this time, quite rightly IMO. Kappa 08:48, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

?? If you'll take a quick look at google books:have, you'll notice that (deprecated template usage) have usually doesn't mean "own". Even if you restrict it to google books:"have a", not one of the top ten hits means "own". Also, you seem to believe that in the phrase "have a bath", (deprecated template usage) bath is a verb? If so, then that belief is mistaken; if not, then sorry, but I don't understand what you're trying to say. —Ruakh_TALK 14:40, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

I've just added the verb sense to (deprecated template usage) bath, supported by three citations spanning 17 years. Thryduulf 10:41, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Keep per fancy dress test. Sounds awkward to Americans. DAVilla 05:48, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

B. splendens

This is illustrative of a type of abbreviation common in botany and zoology. It is a context-dependent abbreviation. The meaning of B. would vary according to what genus was being discussed. I would assume that such entries should be deleted on sight or moved to the spelled-out entry name if it does not already exist. Please advise on any better course of action. DCDuring TALK 16:07, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

• Weak don't know. E. coli should be acceptable though, and several more widely used ones. SemperBlotto 16:12, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

  Thanks for reminding me. I wouldn't have deleted that one - almost no matter what was said here. DCDuring TALK 18:25, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Agree with SB. There are a few which we should keep. E. coli is one and C. elegans is another, but that's all I can think of. No one says (nor writes) H. sapiens or M. musculus, and Drosophila always just goes by its genus for some reason. I think anything besides the above two should be shot on sight. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 17:44, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

OK. If I come across any marginal cases, I'll check b.g.c. for use outside of technical literature or bring them here. DCDuring TALK 18:25, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

My experience is that the abbreviations are only used routinely for model organisms whose genus name is long and hard to spell. So, you'll see E. coli and C. elegans instead of Escherichia coli and Caenorhabditis elegans. But each of these is ambiguous, since there is an Entamoeba coli (gut parasite of some note) and Calochortus elegans (a flower). For Drosophila and Arabidopsis, the genus name is used instead. And, as Atelaes has noted, no one bothers to abbreviate Homo or Mus, perhaps because the names are so short anyway. Likewise Zea mays isn't abbreviated.

There is at least one other model organism whose name is regularly abbreviated, and that is S. cereviciae (Saccharomyces cereviciae), or "brewer's yeast". It's abbreviated name deserves an entry as well. --EncycloPetey 19:56, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Disagree with Atelaes. Check each for cites without context and keep. (A valid cite, imo, would be, e.g., a journal article entitled "Bright red B. splendens", even if its text/abstract starts "Betta splendens...".)—msh210℠ 19:20, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, that's the trick. Quite frankly, you could probably cite just about any such abbreviation. That does not mean that anyone except for the twenty or so people working on the species actually understand it. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 20:16, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I hope I don't correctly understand what you are saying. As I understand it, an implication would be that we should have a sense of "fish" that corresponds to each genus, species, and subspecies of fish for which we could find a use of the word fish that was referring to that type of fish.

This is not idle or facetious. I would expect that I could find a few senses each for "A. palmata", "A. palmatus", "A. palmatum", "B. palmata", etc. I'm certainly not going to cite them myself and would be inclined to RfV each instance. I was trying to make our lives easier, not harder. DCDuring TALK 20:10, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I think that the test should be if the abbreviation is used in non-technical publications without expansion on several occasions spanning at least a year; news articles would be good sources of these I suspect. Off the top of my head I'd say that E. coli and C. difficile should have entries, as should the latter's even more abbreviated form C. diff. Thryduulf 20:19, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Semi-relevant newbie question, are the things findable through http://scholar.google.com "durably archived"? Conrad.Irwin 19:29, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

As durably archived as it gets. Now, that's not to say that they necessarily meet CFI; that's a whole nother conversation. But, yes, very durably archived. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 19:52, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

We seem to deem them to be. IMHO, the hard part is getting access if not affiliated with a subscribing institution. In practice, I rarely find useful material-in-context from Scholar, much more from b.g.c. DCDuring TALK 20:10, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I suppose that, in order to avoid misleading the user, we should include all the possible senses of each abbreviation. Thus, based solely on the woefully incomplete coverage of Wikispecies, we should have at least one sense each for Buchnera, Buchanania, and Beaufortia, as well as for Betta. DCDuring TALK 20:35, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

We run into the problem then of all the taxonomic synonyms, obsolete combinations, and nomina nuda that have ever appeared in publications. This is a door best left closed. Having the entry on Wiktionary would add nothing that couldn't be better handled by a good search on Wikispecies. --EncycloPetey 21:34, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Hear, hear. Or even a search for splendens on Wiktionary. DCDuring TALK 21:42, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Delete (per EP and nomination) along with the various similar entries that have been created over the last couple of days for the sole purpose of gaining points in the Christmas Competition. -- Gauss 22:17, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Delete per Gauss. By the way here is the "Christmas Competition list" in case we do delete these: N. g. salvini, R. gularis, R. chavin, N. caspica, A. anarthros, E. aenea, Y. ysypo, K. kieneri, R. dunni, N. nivalis, P. potens, Z. zorro, C. kachetica, D. lyelliana, N. nomurai, R. thomana, T. timens, S. salatis, R. varini, H. koreana, K. kachuga, N. tigrina, M. minimus, D. gelus, D. diraspes, L. siamica, N. sipedon, I. justi, L. varians, L. pacari, R. nereis, R. scita, X. tyrrhea. Sorry if I overlooked one or two. And as there are quite a few among these which are only "defined" by a red-linking Latin full name, I would think it prudent on the part of those who had contributed such to do something about it. You know who you are. --Duncan 18:54, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Turkish loanwords from Serbian

jelek; Turkish yelek (vest, waist, waistcoat); originally that word came from Serbo-Slavic obleka (cloth; Gon-bel-Gon basis; i.e. heblek => jeblek = jelek); cf. jagluk from (h)oglavak, a maiden scarf.

kavez; Kavez (Tur. kafese) comes from the Gon-Bel basis; Serbo-Slavic okov (fetter), hvatanje (catch), gvožđe/gvozd (iron), uvezati (fasten); Serbian syntagma "baciti u gvožđa" (to shackle); cf. Serbian gvozd and Hephaistos Ἡφαιστος; Serb. gvožđe (iron) => zvezda (star), gvožđara (iron shop) => zvezdara (the place full of stars) and Gr. εσεσιδηρωτο (overlaid with iron), also Gr. σεσιδηρω-μενοι; Lat. sidereus starry).

kašika; Turkish kaşık (spoon) is not Turkish inherited word. Serbo-Slavic kašika (spoon) is clearly related to the verb 'kvašenje' (wetting, soaking) and to the Serbo-Slavic word 'kaša' (soup; from kvašenica). It is the reason why we have the forms kašika and kovšika (Russ. ковшик) as Slavic spoon).

jastuk; Turkish yastık (Turkmen ÿassyk) could be compared to OE hassuc (coarse grass); maybe it is related to English husk (Serb. ljuska). Nevertheless, there is a more reliable possibility that Serbian jastuk (pillow) is derived from the verb uzdignuti (lift up) or 'istaknuti' (jut, prominent, protrude) and we all know that jastuk (pillow) is a part of bed that is bulged out from the bed surface.

dusek; The Russian word подушка/poduška (pillow) explains the Serbo-Slavic word dušek (mattress), because poduška is derived from Serbo-Salvic podloga (substratum, pillow, background, backing, bedding, basis, floor, bottom), Serb. podloška (pillow, groundwork, pad, bed); it means that 'dušek' (mattress) is an apheresis of the Serb-Slavic word 'po-dloška' (bed). Turkish döşek (bed, mattress) is a clear-cut borrowing from Serbo-Slavic.

butina; Butina (thigh) is also related to above-mentioned Serbo-Salvic podloga (base); the same compund word from which English foot and leg were derived; cf. Ice. fótleggur.

kobasica; Kobasica appeared be related to Sanskrit gopas (shepherd), but it came from the above-mentioned Serbian okov (fetter) and verbs okivati (shackle, band) and očuvati (keep, preserve, beware). Logically, nothing can be preserved if it is not "fettered" or "fastned" or put into a shackles (cage); therefrom, kobasica is a food that can be preserved from decaying for a long period (shepherd's food); cf. Serbian čoban (shepherd), čuvanje (keeping), okivanje (shackling).

odaja; Turkish oda (room; Turkmen otag) is probably related to Serbian odaja (room); but Serbian odaja is just one of the forms of the words as odeljenje (section, department; cf. Ger. Teil, Eng. deal) or odeljak (Ger. Abteil); from the Serbo-Slavic deliti (devide, separate).

vampir; Vampir (vampire) is the only word that allegedly was borrowed from Serbian although that word seems to be more related to Latin vapor (steam); yes, it could also come from Serbo-Slavic upariti (to steam; para steam); cf. Old Russian упирь (vampire); here it would be interesting to mention that English spirit (from Lat. spiritus soul) sounds almost the same as Serbian ispariti (steam out) and ispiriti (to exhale, expire!!).

kutija; Serbian kutija (box) is related to Serbian words kut (ugao), ćošak (ugao), kocka (cube; cf. Serb. ćoškast = kockast /cubelike/), kuća (house).

leš; Leš (corpse) is probably related to Serbian verb 'ležati' (lie down); cf. Serb. syntagma "leži mrtav" (he lies dead)

kovrdžav; Kovrdža (curl) comes from kvrga (bump, nub), kvržica (a small nub), kurgan; cf. Serb. kvrgast knotty (from krug /circle/); opposite to kvrga is jaruga/jarak (ditch, furrow, harrow, Lat. corrugo -are).

čelik; Čelik (steel; kako se kalio čelik; Ostrovsky's novel "How the Steel Was Tempered"); from Serbo-Slavic kaliti (to steel; Russ. за-каляю); Czech ocel (steel); Serb. očeličiti (to steel, harden); okaliti/ prekaliti (harden, steel).

budala; Budala (fool); metathesis from Serbian poludeti (mad, madden, craze), bludeti (wanton); bludeo - poludeo - budala; hence the Serbian adverb podlo (meanly); podlost (baseness).

kapija; Kapija (gate) is from Serbian poklopac (cover, lid), oklapati, za- klapati (to cover, close); Serb. "za-klopi kapiju" (close the gate!; oklop /shell/ => klapija => kapija).

sapun; Sapun (soap); related to Serbian 'sipanje' (pour) and za-peniti (to foam); cf. Serb. sapunati (to soap).

barut; Barut (gunpowder); from Serbo-Slavic prah/porah (dust; Russ. порох); from Serb. prsnuti (burst, break, explode, spray; Lat. aspergo spray); cf. Serb. brašno (flour; Ukr. борошно), Russ. порошок; Arabic barud; Greek πυρίτιδα, μπαρούτι; Aramaic b@rwt, ˁaprā dust; Akkadian eperu (dust; cf. Serbian pra' dust, gunpowder). According to Xurbelanum HSF formula the basis of all the above words is Bel-Hor-Gon (Latin pulvereus!)

džep; Džep (pocket; Arabic jaib); also gajba (cage); cf. Serb. kavez; Ita. gabbia (cage); from the Gon-Bel basis, kibla, kabal, kabao, kofa; from Serbian kupilo (bucket, cupel), okupljati (to gather together); English gap

sat; Sat (Turkish saat; Turkmen sagat; Hebrew sha`ah /hour/)... Aramaic šāˁtā (moment of time) could be compared to the Serbian adverb 'sada' (now); Serb. vreme sadašnje (present tense); Russ. сегодня/ sevodnya (today); South-Serbian секогаш/sekogaš (ever, forever); svaki all, ever; zauvek forever; Latin secunda... I hope, now you are able to understand that the word sat (hour) is a clear cut IE word that cannot be explained neither in Turkish nor Semitic languages.

dželat; Dželat (executioner; Turkish cellat); cf. gallows; OE galga is related to Serbian kolac (pole; cf. Turkish golcü executioner); In this case, dželat (executioner) is the Turkish loanword in Serbian but this word originally started from Serbian 'kolac' (pole, pale). We all know that impaling was the most favorite punishment in Dark Ages. Serb. kolac (pole) => Tur. golcü (executioner) => cellat/dželat (executioner).

tavan; Turkish tavan (ceiling) and Serbian tavan (attic, loft) are very imteresting words because they seem to be related to Serbian adjective 'tavno/tavan' (dark); Aramaic ṭellālā (shade, ceiling; Arabic zallal dark) might be in connection with Serbian/Turkish/Arabic tavan. Serbo- Slavic tamno (Russ. темный/temniy; Czech temný, tma, tajemný, tmavý, temno; Serb. tmina darkness, po-tamnilo darkened) is derived from Gon- Bel-Gon basis similar to the other Serbian words as dubina (deepness), tamnica/tavnica (prison, jail). In case of the Serbian words tavan/ taman (dark) the b=>m sound change is clearly visible. Serbian tavan (loft) and tavanica (ceiling) are clearly related to Serbian tavnica/ tamnica (prison, jail). In reality, ancient man realized that as you go deeper (Serbian dubina) under the ground the environment is getting more and more dark (Serb. tavno/tamno); it means that prison is a dark space as well as it is the space above the ceiling - Serb. tavan (loft, attic).

Finally, if we compare English ceiling and cellar/cell (German Keller basement; from Latin celare con-cealing covering, hiding) we will be able to understand the logic of the development of Serbo-Slavic words tavan (loft), tavanica, tavnica (ceiling), tavnica/tamnica (prison) and tavan/taman (dark; tmina darkness).

Ko je ovaj moj tekst prosledio ovde? Slučajno naleteh. Imam utisak da neko o tome raspravlja kao da je on autor tog teksta. U svakom slučaju, hteo bih to da raščistim. Zar se ovde može postirati i inkognito?

Who posted this article? I have impression that this guy is pretending to be me. Weird, isn't it?

Dušan Vukotić

Ha, now I see. Everyone can write/post here whatever he likes. Wonderful!

Or you are pretending to be him, or both of you are pretending to be someone else, or you are the same person operating an anonymous sock puppet. Regardless, all edits are logged in the page history, so it is possible to verify which account was used to make any given edit. --EncycloPetey 22:00, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Why would I be pretending to be someone else? I found this web page a few days ago and I was surprized seing that my name has been mentioned here as if I was a regular Wiki visitor/contributor! Yesterday I registered myself as - Vukotic; I thought (wrongly, of course) it would be necessary...

All of these words have been wrongly placed as having a Turkish origin. Could you please provide the correct etymology for a change for both the Slavic and the Turkish words - which is unmistakably Slavic.

Thank you.

I reverted your edits- I don't know anything about Slavic languages, but I figured that it should be discussed before deleting it. Nadando 03:40, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

You have shown some word similarities, but that does not demonstrate the direction of the borrowing. If there are similar words in two languages, that does not tell us which was the originating language. Appealing to German, Arabic, and Latin does not demonstrate a Slavic origin either. --EncycloPetey 03:51, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

These are not similarities but rather explanations of the origin of the words in question and to other words they are related. By giving you German and Latin cognates I am providing you with further proof that they are part of the Indo-European language family which proves that they aren't derived from a Turkish word as Turkish isn't an IE language. Also all of these words cannot be explained using any of the words in the Turkish vocabulary.

But Arabic and Aramaic are not Indo-European; they are Semitic languages. I repeat: you have listed some words you think are similar; other people may disagree that they are similar, especially since in several cases the meaning is quite different between the supposedly related words. Etymology is not based on similarity. It is based on change through time. You must demonstrate that each word existed in Serbian before it existed in Turkish. At the least you must cite a reliable source. --EncycloPetey 04:13, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Are you familiar with any of the Slavic languages? If you are you would clearly see the relation of the words. They are related and thus of the same origin; leš comes from lež[ati]. It's absurd to even question the relation of these words. I don't think that whoever has placed these words as Turkish ('kašika' for example) has provided any proof of any kind as to how it is a Turkish word. All of the examples are clearly cognates to words I have provided. I don't have the time nor the patience to give you a linguistics lecture here. If this site is supposed to help people and provide them with factual information than its clearly far from it. Max Vasmer provides proof on this.

You asked if I was familiar with them, then seem to assume I am not. I have studied some Croatian, Polish, and Czech. I have regularly used medieval Polish records in doing research. I have also done the same for Hungarian, so I am well-aware of the interchange of words between languages in the Balkans. You need not give a linguistics lecture, since your knowledge of comparative linguistics seems dated. It is clear you are only interested in pushing your point of view through handwaving arguments. --EncycloPetey 05:07, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Gon-bel-Gon :))) ? Oh dear, it's Dušan Vukotić with his brain-damaged "human speech formula" theories. Here is his blog which illuminates some of his naive semantic correspondence theories, and also you might wanna look him up on sci.lang where he's been getting on people's nerves for months (usually he's being ignored/mocked). Just block him the next time he comes reversing widely accepted etymologies and starts to provide his "theories"; discussing with him is pointless waste of time.

(_{PS, for those interested, his "Gon-Bel-Gon" theory is that all of IE is somehow derivable from about four syllables, two of which are BEL and GON. It's a bizarre mixture of mysticism, unsystematic and very vague sound similarities, and free association of ideas. You can get an idea from these posts: [5] (yes, that's cybalist!) [6]}) --Ivan Štambuk 06:51, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

This is ridiculous. To the ip user, please do not remove etymologies already in place as you clearly do not know what youre doing. Thanks for the info Ivan. --Dijan 10:20, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Nothing to discuss here any more. No specific entries were nominated or tagged as part of this RFD anyway. Related topics continue to be discussed on various talk pages of Croatian and Serbian users as well as perhaps on talk pages to individual entries. But there is nothing left to do for RFD at this time. Besides: this section was last edited on 31 July 2008. -- Gauss 00:52, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

꿈을

Noun + particle. We're still down on these, right? -- Visviva 12:07, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

We keep declined forms in other languages. I say keep. —Stephen 14:59, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

But as I'm sure you know, nouns don't technically decline in Korean, any more than they do in Japanese; they simply take a range of particles. Just as English has no possessive case, Korean has no accusative case. -- Visviva 15:39, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Delete if I understand correctly that the particle attaches to a noun phrase or other nominal, and not necessarily to an individual noun. (Otherwise no vote: I see no obvious benefit to such entries, but no obvious harm in them, either, and am happy to let y'all sort it out at Wiktionary:About Korean.) —Ruakh_TALK 00:39, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Japanese, like Chinese, Thai, and Khmer, does not use word spaces, so it is debatable whether the postpositions and particles are suffixes or separate words. Most authorities treat them as separate words. In Korean, they are suffixes, exactly like the case endings in Turkish, Mongolian, and Finnish. If it were not for the traditional parsing of Japanese as noun+postposition, these Korean words would probably be considered noun cases. And while having terms such as 꿈을 does no harm, on the other hand they are useful because they yield a useful result when you search for them. If you don’t know Korean and search for 꿈을, and if the only entries are for 꿈 and 을, you would not know what the word meant. —Stephen 15:27, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

This last is a valid point; I've been vaguely thinking that we should have a standard usage note (or sidebar, or something) that notes the more frequent (and semi-irregular) particles, so that the 꿈 entry would also appear prominently in searches for 꿈이, 꿈을, 꿈과, etc. On the one hand, AFAIK Korean grammarians are unanimous in regarding particles (조사) as separate words. The standard South Korean orthography (한글맞춤법) specifically notes particles as an exception to the principle of words being separated by spaces. Samuel Elmo Martin and others even write them as separate words; thus in Yale, this would be transliterated as kkwum ul. So for us to treat something like 꿈을 as a word would be a serious exercise in OR. On the other hand, our target audience cannot be assumed to be familiar with the finer points of Korean grammar, so a templated usage note seems to me like the best approach. -- Visviva 09:45, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Delete. We treat Korean particles as separate words, consistent with standard Korean grammar, so this is just a multiple word phrase with no linguistic value beyond the sum of its parts. Rod (A. Smith) 20:21, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I hate you people. If it looks like a word it should be treated like a word. It's just mean to say "Oh sorry, technically it's not one word according to standard Korean grammar, come back to wiktionary after you've learned it". It's even worse than screwing people on English possessives, at least the 's gives a visual clue. Kappa 10:19, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

It's bad to be mean, but it's also bad to be wrong. Ideally we can find a way to be neither. To this end, I've created {{ko-usage-particles}} and added it to 꿈. Does this address your concerns?

FWIW, I was once of the same opinion regarding the major Korean particles (see the early revisions of Template:ko-noun), but was eventually persuaded of the error of my ways. -- Visviva 10:24, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

A search for 꿈을 only finds that page, it does not find the 꿈 page. The only way to get to 꿈 from "꿈을", if 꿈을 is deleted, is if you know enough about Korean and Korean grammar to try dropping the last syllable when searching. This puts Korean generally out of reach to most Americans. —Stephen 00:39, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Here's my input. As someone who knows nothing about Korean, I have to say that the difference between 꿈을 and 꿈, or rather the lack thereof, is thoroughly confusing. When does one use a particle, and when not? How many particles are there, and how many attach to this word? (Abstain of course.) DAVilla 05:41, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Jesuses

Note: see also Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2008-06/Plurals of proper nouns.

OK User:EncycloPetey is pulling all kinds of bullshit excuses to try to keep this deleted without discussion. If the community intends to screw over its readership let's have some real debate to show them. Kappa 23:17, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

If you look at my talk page, you'll see there was discussion. It is you who insisted on overturning a deletion without discussion or indeed even looking at the discussion that had happened. Your attitude and language are very unbecoming. Please play nice. I have started a formal discussion below. --EncycloPetey 23:31, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

OK I'm sorry I didn't realize you were having a secret discussion, perhaps because it wasn't advertised. Kappa 23:36, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

This is a WIKI. Discussions posted on pages are not secret. The problem is that you didn't look, jumped to conclusions, and proceded to make accusations and use profanity. At what point in this process did I cause you to go astray? --EncycloPetey 23:40, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

... where was I supposed to look? Kappa 23:43, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

If you knew I deleted it, then why not see my talk page? --EncycloPetey 23:48, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I have waited on this to let my anger subside. Why was it OK to delete this outside of RfD/RfV? I do not believe that a discussion which someone is supposed to find if they happen to notice the deletion is in any way a substitute for the public one. DCDuring TALK 19:39, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Administrators have to do this all the time. Not everything which is deleted is brought to rfv/d, nor could it be. If it were, the pages would cease to function, being overwhelmed with junk. People who make a habit of patrolling (as EP does), have to rely on their own judgment to decide what is obvious crap and what is more controversial. There are many difficult decisions, but a good general rule is that if a word is in someway contrary to general convention (as Jesuses is), then it can be deleted on sight. Inclusion of this entry requires a large-scale change to how we do proper nouns on Wiktionary. I'm fairly ambivalent as to what happens, but it's certainly a change. EP was completely in the right on this one. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 20:05, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I know. I delete items that fall within the various categories that we have for expeditious deletion. Anything that I think might be controversial I put on RfV/RfD. I try to not substitute my own prejudices and preferences no matter how superior they may be by dint of my credentials, training, experience, and expertise. I strongly disagree that "someway contrary to general convention" is adequate if it leads to this result. Obviously we have numerous problems with conflict among rules. Our "unwritten rules" ought to have little force. If we cannot write a specific rule that gains community acceptance, then there is no community acceptance and more general rules, principles and process apply. An entry such as this that can be readily cited and is a word but conflicts with some "unwritten rule" which contradicts the capabilities of the applicable template (pl parameter) and WT:CFI. It is precisely because the judgment of even our most veteran contributors is not to be trusted that we need to respect the process. The substitution of insider judgment for a more transparent process is what puts Wiktionary in a questionable position in its handling of newbie contributions. DCDuring TALK 20:51, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

If we do not allow our veteran contributors to use their judgment, then patrolling becomes an impossible task. It is not perfect, as we often like to overturn previous conventions, but it is the best method we've got so far. For every deleted entry that perhaps should have been left, a hundred that should not waste the community's time get deleted (without wasting the community's time). Without the judgment of veteran contributors, we become Urban Dictionary. I think it a bad idea to criticize an admin for engaging in the difficult and arduous task of patrolling, and failing to conceive of every possible consideration for an entry. If we want to keep edits patrolled, we need to be a bit more forgiving of those rare individuals who actually do so (like EP and SB). Because I'll be honest, I hate patrolling, and while I force myself to do it on occasion, I certainly don't do enough of it to keep our incoming edits under control. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 21:11, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Indulging one's prejudices should not be a reward for patrolling. Frankly, I believe that letting a few arguable cases through is not a waste of time for those who do not patrol. I believe that I have detected a greater tendency to submit some such cases to RfD/RfV and I appreciate that. DCDuring TALK 22:43, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

For the record, there are no rewards for patrolling, only aches and pains. --EncycloPetey 23:30, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Like this, I assume. Patrolling is just supposed to keep the vandals under control, not necessarily enforce unenforceably complex rules. DCDuring TALK 23:46, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Patrolling is supposed to make Wiktionary better. Mostly it does consist of deleting ten "Haha, lolzzZZZ" pages in a row, sometimes in consist of purging protologisms, blatant or otherwise, other times it is just a case of keeping things neat and tidy. Anyone has the right to act to improve Wiktionary. If there is no community decision on an issue, then anyone can make up the rules as they go along (otherwise we'd be overwhelmed with borderline cases). If people disagree with your decisions then the rules come under discussion and get changed, otherwise the made up rules get adopted by others and a consensus is formed. You may disagree with people's decision (that's fine, if everyone agrees then boredom ensues) but you have to give everyone the chance to decide for themselves. Conrad.Irwin 00:27, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

OK there seems to be support for the idea that borderline, controversial cases should be deleted without public discussion instead of brought to a forum such as this one. I would like it explained to me (1) why someone on the receiving end of this kind of behavior would not simply leave the project or become a vandal. Why would this not be an entirely appropriate response? and (2) why should the rest of the community not get a chance to voice their opinion? Kappa 18:00, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Not at all, borderline cases should be brought for discussion. The problem lies in distinguishing borderline from not-borderline. i.e. the borderline borderline cases. (1) If they disagree they can (and, from experience, do) ask about it. (2) The rest of the community does get the chance to voice their opinion, hence this extensive discussion. As our patrollers in general do a very good job, for no reward except being moaned at by disgruntled spammers, or picked on by outraged Wiktionarians, I don't think there is any problem in the way things are done. Yes, people have different opinions; No, that isn't a problem. Conrad.Irwin 18:20, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

AEL Jesuses

---

You can say "There were two Julius Caesars, a public Julius Caesar and a private Julius Caesar." When you do this, you "split" the proper noun into two common noun aspects. This means that you are no longer using a proper noun, so the grammar of a proper noun is gone. Normally, a proper noun like Julius Caesar cannot take an article like (deprecated template usage) a, but you can see in the hypothetical situation above, the indefinite article is used. This phenomenon applies to all proper nouns (except those that have an inherently plural form like Alps). The examples I listed above all return citations from Google Books: "A student of Ireland can find three different Irelands..."[7]; "The Three Romes"[8]; etc.

I propose we forbid all "plurals" of proper nouns. This includes "plurals" of countries like Englands, Irelands, Chinas; of cities like Romes, Berlins, Londons; of personal names like Jorges, Anitas, Pauls; and all other such "plurals". I feel the arguments run along the same lines as those we used to forbid the inclusion of all the possessives. Including these should not be allowed any more than the possessive forms, which we specifically voted to exclude.

The alternative is madness. For every Proper noun, we would have a new common Noun section with a definition like this: Rome - Any hypothetical aspect of the city of Rome, whether regional, historical, or cultural. Does the commmunity would want to add a whole section under a Noun header to each and every English Proper noun in the language? --EncycloPetey 23:29, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

We do it for all plural forms of all other nouns, why make an exception for proper nouns? Conrad.Irwin 23:31, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Re-read the discussion above. (1) Proper nouns don't have plurals. (2) Every singular of these "plurals" will have identical definitions. (3) See the discussion on excluding possessives. For (3), note especially the comments about how the -'s attaches to a phrase, which is true of the "plurals" of proper nouns as well. (e.g. Trinidad and Tobagos) --EncycloPetey 23:35, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

You might as well say it's madness to include plurals of common nouns! Personally it's never been my understanding of proper nouns that they cannot have plural forms. But even if that is the case, that is a problem with our classification system rather than with the words themselves. Manifestly, Jesuses and other similar plurals are in use, and therefore clearly we should have entries for them if they are attested. Why on earth not? All the entries need is a simple {{plural of}}. Widsith 23:35, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Proper nouns don't have plurals; only the common noun aspect of a proper noun has a plural. The plural is never a proper noun because it is not a name but a class. Further, all the possessives would need is a "possessive of", right? Yet, we voted to eclude those; we should do the same here. --EncycloPetey 23:36, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

The word exists. Whether you call it proper or common is neither here nor there. Widsith 23:38, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

The problem is that it is both here and there. If we have entries all over Wiktionary identifying words as "plural of" something else, and the something else is marked as a different part of speech, the general internet community will think we're nuts (OK, they probably think that already, but why add fuel to the fire). If we add these "plurals", then logically we also need to go through and add all the common Noun snese of these words. Consider: "There's not a London like that anymore." We don't have an entry with a definition that will fit this sentence, because we don't deal in the common noun aspect of Proper nouns. All proper nouns have such an aspect, and it's part of standard English grammar that they can be used hypothetically like this. Any entry and definition would have to have extensive Usage notes and examples to keep people from becoming hopelessly confused.

Further, lots of words exist that we exclude. Existence of a word does not mean we will include it. We exclude protologisms, possessives, many brand names, names of specific individuals, and many more besides. --EncycloPetey 23:41, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Prolotogisms aren't words. The justification for deleting English possessives is that they are not actually words, but words plus a clitic. We have a test for whether or not a brand name can be considered part of the language. Kappa 23:47, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

The thread of this particular line is that we do exclude some words. Can you agree that existence of a word is not automatic cause for inclusion? That is the point I was making just above.

If you note in the other thread above, the "plurals" of proper nouns are formed exactly as the possessives. A suffix is added to a complete phrase functioning as a proper noun. --EncycloPetey 23:49, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

suffix != clitic. Thryduulf 00:33, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Wiktionary aims to be descriptive not prescriptive, so why not just say that proper nouns can be used uncountably to describe a specific person, place or thing, or countably in the singular or plural to describe aspects of a specific person, place or thing or multiple specific people, places or things with the same name? Why must we be hidebound by traditional grammars if they do not describe what we observe? Thryduulf 00:33, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Because that would be misleading rather than descriptive. "Proper noun" implies a number of grammatical properties of a word. The "plural" of a proper noun never exhibits those properties; it exibits the properties of a common noun. More importantly, the singular of that plural is also a common noun. If I say "The apostles of Christ included two Jameses, I do not mean that there were two "male given names". I mean there were two "people bearing the name James". This is akin to the use-mention distinction. When James is used to refer to a specific individual, it is a proper noun. However, when it refers not to a specific individual, but to one of a class of such items, then it is a common noun, as in: "Is there a James here?" Notice that in this example, we have an indefinite article preceding the word James, which is contrary to use as a proper noun. It also does not refer to a specific individual, but one of a class, much as: "Is there a doctor here?" If we include the "plurals" of proper nouns, then we have to include, for every given name, the common noun sense of "an individual bearing this name". --EncycloPetey 00:41, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Are we really sure that we want an across-the-board prohibition? Also, would we not want to provide some indication of how a plural might be formed for an entry we call a "Proper noun", especially if it is not by mere addition of "s". For surnames, for example, the plural is very natural and common: "Let's invite the Smiths over for dinner." How would you say that for the "Jones" or "Johns" family? Because we do not have a very effective and accessible presentation of the grammatical "rules" of English, I don't really see how we can rely on those "rules" to make up for entries that are not present or information not present in the entries. It is not as if all grammar texts have identical definitions of "proper nouns". It is even less likely that the senses in the entries we have characterized as "Proper noun" would really meet many of the definitions of "Proper noun". DCDuring TALK 00:39, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

We went through this same discussion for the possessives and decided not to include them. I have begun an appendix explaining grammar of English proper nouns, but it will need much more work before it is complete. I have not had a suitably long block of time to focus on writing it, since, as you have noted, it is a difficult topic and most grammars I've examined casually skim over the subject without addressing it. --EncycloPetey 00:41, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I gotta say EP, that's pretty phat. I look forward to seeing it in the appendix namespace. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 00:48, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I think something which should be borne in mind here is the frequency. Common nouns are commonly used in the plural, while proper nouns are only rarely used in plural, and in an obscure function. I see zero difference between this and the possessive forms. It is still a bound morpheme attached by normal rules. You can argue 'til you're blue in the face that this is a clitic or whatever, but it's still a suffix of some type which attaches to nouns (and phrases) in a determined fashion. Now, I don't have much of a problem with including possessive forms, nor do I have a problem with including these common plural forms of proper nouns. However, as EP duly notes, this is a lot of work for little gain. Also, I think that each such form should be subject to rfv, as it is an odd form. Additionally, DCDuring makes an excellent point that we lack good grammar appendices, certainly a current shortcoming of our project. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 00:43, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Comment. EP raises good points, but I'm not convinced. Since indeed every proper noun can be used as a common noun, I don't think it's necessary to include a separate "Noun" section at every proper-noun entry, because an English-speaking reader will see the "Proper noun" section and know what do make of it; however, plurals are different, since you can't visit [[Chinas]] and see a "Proper noun" section. However, I'm not going to vote "keep", because I think that neither (deprecated template usage) Jesus nor (deprecated template usage) Jesuses meets WT:CFI#Names, and while I don't really mind making a few exceptions, I certainly won't vote to. —Ruakh_TALK 02:45, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

The word obviously exists. We aim to include ALL words. Therefore we should keep it. I notice the in Mary, for example, it is defined as a Proper noun, then {{en-noun}} is used to generate the headword. That seems a reasonable compromise to me. SemperBlotto 06:57, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

So, you want to label it on the entry as a "Poper noun", but categorize it as a common noun? Or are you proposing dual categorization for every proper noun? --EncycloPetey 13:40, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

The last time I looked {{en-proper noun}} allowed a pl= parameter. DCDuring TALK 18:44, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

It also allows uncountable, but I cannot think of a single Proper noun that is uncountable. For the typical proper noun, the count is "one". --EncycloPetey 21:44, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

delete - and writing a grammar appendix is a very good idea. Hekaheka 17:22, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

keep as it is commonly used in such usages as "The square in front of the shrine had many vendors selling plastic Jesuses." not so rare, as can be seen from this b.g.c. search. I also agree with Ruakh's point about the need to maintain access via entry of the plural.

Also:

The plural needs to be indicated in the lemma entry.

Further, I would suggest that the RfV process is the means for removing spurious plurals, when as and if they occur.

Most of the "rare" plural forms of proper nouns are much less rare than many of our other entries, including many not marked with rare tags.

The existence of rules that we can effectively render comprehensible and accessible for our normal users, which would truly substitute for the plural entries, has not been established. DCDuring TALK 18:37, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Simplest would be to apply the normal CFI, three independent durably archived citations spanning three years. Jesuses meets this trivially, as do many people's names. Some town and city names do not meet this, and it seems dependent on the size of such places - seems to me to be a reasonable metric. Conrad.Irwin 18:43, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

If we apply "the normal CFI", as you call them, to (deprecated template usage) Jesuses, but the actual CFI to (deprecated template usage) Jesus, then we'd keep only the former. Are you sure that's a good idea? —Ruakh_TALK 19:16, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

As I haven't read through the CFI in a long time, I just remember the "three independent durably archived three year-spanning cites", If we are looking for that then there is no question that Jesuses would be includable (see google books). But, if there's something else that I've forgotten please correct me. Conrad.Irwin 19:24, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps we should also be considering uncountable nouns like alfalfa. These follow a similar pattern, whereby they normally do not take a plural, but can in certain contexts. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 21:48, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

One of my personal hobby horses is uncountability. "alfalfas" would be readily attestable in agricultural literature. DCDuring TALK 22:46, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh, definitely. I wasn't saying anything to the contrary. However, we really ought to come up with a nice way of noting such things. Because nearly every common noun could have a sense of "a type of xxxx", and yet it seems a bit redundant to note that in every single definition, just as it seems kind of dumb to include an abstract common noun sense for each and every single proper noun. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 22:50, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I wonder whether the default views of Wiktionary for non-registered users shouldn't have with all kinds of grammar lessons and extensive display of the obvious through templated text and links. Registered users should get a choice of views that reflect what they think they know. Adepts could get a more fine-grained choice like WT:PREFS. Getting rid of the obvious would be a reward for registering and signing in. I don't know what the software prospects are for that degree of control, but a good number of our presentation concerns derive from the broad range of capabilities of our users. I don't entirely believe that Simple is going to fully address the needs of a very broad range of users, as useful as their efforts seem to be. If we had some sense for the realistic time-frame for that degree of customization, we could resolve many of these disputes much more easily. If there is no time-frame, then the disputes are essentially about who the target user is and what capabilities we can assume, all in the absence of any real facts. The current situation gives personal tastes of contributors excessive weight relative to the needs of users. I don't know to what extent this leads us to have something like 1/60th the visits that WP has, but I'd be surprised if it didn't make a contribution. DCDuring TALK 00:07, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

• Just a couple of extra comments for this already huge debate. 1 – Users shouldn't be expected to know that "proper nouns can't have plurals" – they see a word like this, they're entitled to look it up. How we classify it is our own, secondary, problem. 2 – I totally understand EP's position and I take the point about similarity with possessives. For me the simple difference is that the apostrophe in possessives makes it more obvious that we are dealing with two distinct lexemes, whereas with plurals there's no obvious clue. However, if it came to it I'd rather keep both than exclude this. 3 – Even if in general such plurals are discouraged, arguably Jesuses (and some others) is a special case, because "Jesus" = "artistic representation of Jesus" is so incredibly common in art contexts. Widsith 09:33, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

AEL Jesuses again

• Keep with full support for each comment of Widsith right above. --Gauss 10:07, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Admirably said Widsith, but the question remains: How do we format it? Do we make {{en-proper noun}} identical to {{en-noun}}, so that all proper nouns have plurals? Cuz that seems at least a little silly (but perhaps necessary). Do proper nouns only get plurals on a case by case basis? The burden is really on those in support to figure out how this will work, because hasn't anyone thought that it might be just a bit misleading to our readers if our proper nouns have plurals? Cuz proper nouns don't have plurals......largely. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 14:28, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Seems clear that these should not be linked from the PN inflection line (though I expect that at some point we will need to hash out more thoroughly whether names are always PNs or not). If they exist, they should either be one-way links (Jesuses -> Jesus but not vice versa), or linked only from a usage note in the lemma entry. -- Visviva 14:45, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

I disagree with Visviva on this. There are cases where knowing how to form the plural of an item we present as a proper noun is useful. The cases include all of those that form the plural other than by adding "-s" or "-es" or where it is not 100% obvious whether -s or -es is correct and taxons and other words (where Latin or non-English rules apply). It might also be useful to indicate whether (or when) a proper noun takes a plural verb (eg, mountain ranges). To me it seems that how to form a plural is a dictionary question and whether one should use a plural is a question of grammar. Grammar has not been our strong suit and, evidently, does not fit very well into our entry structure. Perhaps we ought to use our entry structure to do well what it can do and not try to make it do what it is not especially well suited to do.

As to Atelaes' question, frankly, the print-dictionary approach (inserting a "-s" or "-es" after nouns that form plurals simply and only spelling out plurals that are "irregular" or where there are alternative forms) devotes about the right amount of space to the task. I also see no reason to show red-links for missing plurals, though blue links for plurals that are entries can show that there might be more to be learned from the plural entry. DCDuring TALK 17:14, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Ugh, this section is getting too long. I have to scroll up for a half hour just to find an edit button. Anyway, I absolutely agree with Visviva. While some of these plurals might not be a bad idea to have, if we have them, they should be linked to from the lemma in a usage note, or not at all. Anything else would be, in my opinion, misleading to our readers. As to the regularity of pluralization......I don't know if that is really relevant. We certainly don't make a distinction between regular and irregular plurals in our common nouns. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 17:27, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

I guess if our users don't know how to form a plural of a proper noun, we shouldn't tell them because they might use plurals more often than we think they should.

We certainly waste our users' attention with red-linked, spelled-out regular plurals for our ordinary nouns. DCDuring TALK 17:35, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to assume from the apparent tone of the above response that it was intended to be facetious. So, the reason we're saying that the "plural" of the Proper noun should not be linked from the Proper noun inflection line, is that it's not actually a plural of the Proper noun. Rather, Jesuses is a plural of a common noun definition of Jesus. If we link the "plural" from the inflection line, it will positively mislead our readers. Think of it this way: we don't list adverb "forms" of verbs on the Verb inflection line; we don't like hyphenated adjective forms of compound nouns on the Noun inflection line; and so on. When the part of speech is different, because of different grammar, we create a new section or even a new entry (in cases where the spelling is different). Logically then, we shouldn't like to a plural common noun from a proper noun section's inflection line. --EncycloPetey 17:46, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

The first comment was facetious, but it reflected my reading of the direction of the discussion. The second comment on redlinked plurals was not facetious at all.

I had not appreciated until this extended discussion why it is that most dictionaries don't have proper nouns as entries (excepting taxonomic names and abbreviations of proper nouns). Their presentation is almost inconsistent with the manner of presentation of other kinds of words. Part of the problem I have been having is with denigrating the common-noun use of the entries we label as proper nouns. Then, by assumption, we don't need to bother with plurals. I think even the most obtuse of our users would not mistakenly pluralize a word we present as a proper noun, used as such. But a user might want to know how to refer to the Joneses (or is that Jones or Jones's) in writing or whether (or when) it should be "the Andes is" or "the Andes are". If calling something a proper noun leads to us being unable to present useful information, then we should not call it a proper noun. Perhaps it would be better to call them nouns and limit the label proper noun to the senses that are the true proper noun senses (or, less plausibly, show the plural only at the common-noun senses). If I thought that users would find such information in usage notes when our entry layout has trained them to look a the inflection line for a plural, then I could simply have accepted that suggestion without further discussion. I would be disappointed if we could not address this kind of usage question consistent with our overall manner of presentation. DCDuring TALK 18:47, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

As I read this discussion, there seems to be - at least partly - an issue on how to format the Proper Nouns such that the reader gets the information that *plural can exist, but *only exist in very few cases. The template {{en-proper noun}} has already been mentioned: thus I wonder why it doesn't include a "plural" point with the explicit remark "for use as common noun only" (or better formulated)? The plural entries could have a "Noun" header, and the inflection template explains to the user why the PoS's (PoS'es?) seem to differ. I have, however, no comment on whether they *should* be given or not... Just that the issue IMHO *could* be solved. \Mike 18:50, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

That seems reasonable enough. Perhaps we could work a link in there to an explanation of what's happening, when and why proper nouns have plurals, etc. I could live with that, as long as there's a note of caution screaming at the user, I have no qualms about putting it into the inflection line. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 18:58, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Pending the arrival of the Perfect Solution, that seems like a good approach. Something brief like (rarely plural), with "rarely" a bluelink to a appropriate section in the Proper Nouns appendix, one of the much-anticipated magnum opi from EP. If that is too terse, the (plural for common noun only), with "common noun" bluelinked to the same (not to common noun) would be OK. Perhaps a "plc=" parameter to optionally generate the text on provision of the plural form. DCDuring TALK 19:31, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Something like this sounds great imo.—msh210℠ 17:33, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Delete. --Connel MacKenzie 10:12, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Keep Obviously, this is a no-brainer. It's the plural of a non-proper noun word "Jesus" which can be seen for example in the lyrics of Depeche Mode's "Personal Jesus", or in numerous examples listed above. I've gone ahead and added this to the Jesus entry. I got too restless to cite the artistic representation sense, someone else cite that. Language Lover 21:47, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

• Keep - at least two pertinent senses. People named "Jesus" (of which there are many) and competing conceptions of the Biblical "Jesus" (of which there are also many, as cited). bd2412 T 13:49, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

  Consider, in fact:

  Multiple conceptions of the Biblical figure: 2005, Richard A. Burridge, Four Gospels, One Jesus?: A Symbolic Reading, p. 165:

  Four portraits or four Jesuses? The first question concerns whether there are four gospels and one Jesus, or four Jesuses.

  Multiple figurines or other physical objects constituting depictions of the Biblical figure: 1996, Rick Reilly, Missing Links, p. 59:

  One Christmas, he talked me into going around town stealing all the baby Jesuses out of creche scenes.

  Multiple people who happen to share the name, "Jesus": 2003, J. P. Mendum, D. M. Bennett, Revelations of Antichrist Concerning Christ and Christianity, p. 42:

  We may perhaps accept the Talmud as authority for the existence of a distinguished Professor Jesus and his pupil James ; but what feature has either of them in common with the Jesus or the Jameses of the Gospels, that would not apply as well to almost any other of the numerous Jesuses or Jameses of the first century ?

  bd2412 T 14:07, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Ruakh again has wheel-warred this entry, removing all meaningful warnings. Nothing I said in my edit was incorrect, nor did I remove any of the citations provided. However, this entry, as it exists now, is purposefully misleading. It promotes a particular point of view with the explicit intent of offending more than a billion people, by its misrepresentation. IF the entry is to be kept, it needs to say why and how the term is offensive. It is not neutral to promote this term as a ordinary correct English term - it simply is not. Since the entry can't seem to exist without meaningful warnings, it should instead be deleted again. --Connel MacKenzie 19:36, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Once again, you find yourself lying transparently on a widely-read page. Doesn't bother you that most editors realize within a few days here that they can't trust anything you write? —Ruakh_TALK 00:58, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Raukh, what lies? You made this edit to the entry, so you cannot claim that it was not edited by you as you stated [9]. Connel is correct that many Christians are offended by the mere concept of more than one Jesus, just as many Moslems are offended by images of Mohammed, and it is an official and historic heresy. You are splitting hairs in saying that this does not apply to the word that is used to communicate that concept, and are being rude in your response to Connel. --EncycloPetey 01:48, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

EP, thanks for your comment. :-)   Connel says "Ruakh again has wheel-warred this entry". Seeing as I've edited that entry exactly once, he can't even claim that I've wheel-warred (except by a very loose definition that construes a single revert as "wheel-warring"), much less that I've "again wheel-warred". I understand that many (even most) Christians would be offended by the concept of more than one Jesus; but most Christians have enough brain cells to rub together and figure out that the word (deprecated template usage) Jesuses does not, in and of itself, imply such a thing. Connel's edit described the word itself as "intentionally incorrect" and a "violent misconstruction", and said that its use must "purposefully offend[]" Christians. Nonsense; none of that is true, and he knows it, and that makes him a liar; and everyone else here knows it, too, which makes his lies very transparent. As I said on his talk page, he can help craft a useful context tag and/or usage note; but lying his ass off and POV-pushing won't get him anywhere, especially since I suspect (but admittedly cannot prove) that he's trying to abuse religious sensitivity to push his usual prescriptivist this-​sounds-​wrong-​to-​me-​so-​Wiktionary-​must-​lambaste-​it-​in-​the-​harshest-​terms POV. (BTW, this isn't a big deal, but I didn't "claim that it was not edited by" me; I stated — correctly — that I hadn't edited it, meaning that I hadn't edited it by the time Connel made his over-the-top edits to it.) Thanks again for your comment; it's good for me to be aware that not everyone sees through Connel's shit. :-/   —Ruakh_TALK 12:31, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Ruakh, our definition of wheel war says nothing about multiple edits. Granted, Connel made a mistake in saying that you had "again wheel-warred this entry" as you had not edited that particular entry before. However, your choice of words ascribes malicious motive to Connel's statement, and your latest response broadens the insult to other users here. Using profanity repeatedly in an attempt to vent frustration will not endear you to anyone. --EncycloPetey 05:52, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

EP, our definition of wheel war says nothing about anything like my edit. However, I'm sorry that I insulted you; you didn't deserve the insult, and certainly I was wrong to characterize your bold assumption of good faith as failure to see through an editor's lies. (I can't share your bold assumption in this case — I did my best and failed — but that doesn't give me the right to criticize you for your success.) You're also right about the use of profanity, and thanks for that important reminder. —Ruakh_TALK 17:58, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

buried treasure

Treasure which has been buried; sum of parts, not obviously idiomatic. What was this doing on Wiktionary:project-wanted articles anyway? Is there another meaning? -- Visviva 03:47, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

By my lights, a figuratively buried figurative treasure wouldn't warrant an entry, but perhaps someone thinks so. DCDuring TALK 03:56, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I added the term. It has both a literal set phrase sense and a figurative sense. The literal concept of buried treasure evokes images of pirates and piracy, and of treasure chests. This connotation is not inherent in the sum of "buried" + "treasure". The figurative sense shows up in sources like these: [10], [11], [12], [13], [14], [15], [16]. --EncycloPetey 04:34, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Buried treasure has at least two idiomatic meanings. 1) A reference specifically to pirate treasure, even out of context—as in, treasure specifically buried by a stereotypical (mythical) pirate, and found with a treasure map (!), as popularized by Treasure Island and probably all pirate fiction since. 2) Like treasure trove, "buried treasure" is also used to refer to any valuable find, uncoviering something that was hidden, buried or not, as in "The best place to look for buried treasure is the library." [17] Dmcdevit·t 04:58, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, buried#Adjective can also have the meaning "hidden, concealed." So the figurative sense doesn't seem obviously non-compositional to me. And I have to dispute the association with pirates; a cursory check of b.g.c. shows all sorts of references to buried treasure in pirate-free locations like New Mexico, Oklahoma, and the Sri Lankan interior. (I was rather surprised to find that w:Buried treasure focuses on pirates, as I would have expected more general coverage of the topic.) Seems like this can be (and is) used pretty freely in any relevant sense of "buried" or "treasure."

IMO those who write of "the buried treasure of Jean Lafitte" and "the buried treasure of the Kandyan kings" are using this collocation in exactly the same way. But I could be persuaded otherwise -- is this ever used out of context to refer to specifically to pirates -- that is, where it is not obvious in context that the treasure would have been buried by pirates? -- Visviva 05:15, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't care if you delete the article. However, "treasure" has so many different connotations (treasure can mean something different to each person - i.e. gold/goal/knowledge/etc.) Yet, with this definition, I used the common type relating to pirate, and have included a reference to Wikipedia since I retrieved the idea for the definition from there. miranda 05:39, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your work. I don't mean to disparage this contribution in any way (although I realize it probably seems that way). The entry was quite well-composed, and you are to be commended for filling an open request.

To respond to your point, I guess it's the very fact that "buried" and "treasure" can have so many meanings that bothers me -- as far as I can tell, looking at the various uses on Google Books, "buried treasure" can have any of those meanings. That would seem to make it non-idiomatic. -- Visviva 12:54, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, the stuff between the lines makes it worth keeping. DAVilla 06:28, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

OK, I realize that there is a connection between pirates and buried treasure. But is there a connection between the word "buried treasure" and pirates? I wouldn't normally make the connection myself, unless I happened to be on a seacoast somewhere. For example, if my cousin were searching for buried treasure in Indiana, I would assume that an outlaw or a miser was involved, not a pirate. -- Visviva 12:54, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

But in that case, you've added context information by specifying geography. In the absence of other context, I think first of the stereotypical image of a pirate's chest. --EncycloPetey 13:54, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

yadda

Entry only says "See yada yada yada". There is no definition and no support as an independent word in the entry. It is not even splled the same as the target entry. --EncycloPetey 15:18, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

It's clear from b.g.c that both "yadda yadda yadda" and "yada yada yada" are amply attested. It doesn't need support as an independent word, if it did then all our "alternative spellings" entries would be bad. It's common sense, that if someone is wondering what "yadda yadda yadda" means, there's a good chance they'll look up just "yadda". As for whether yadda redirects to "yada yada yada" or "yadda yadda yadda", that's academic. Probably the only reason the entry wasn't just an auto-redirect, is the good possibility "yadda" could mean something in another language. Language Lover 18:28, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

But the entry for yadda is labelled "Interjection". It is not an interjection, and it is not a word. --EncycloPetey 21:01, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Ok I went and rewrote it to be self-contained. If it's not an interjection, is it a particle? In any event, it's most definitely a word. Language Lover 05:48, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Which definition of (deprecated template usage) word applies here then? None of our current definitions apply to this item. It doesn't work as a particle, either, because particles are typically appended to an existing word, phrase, or clause, rather than strung together to assemble a "word". And let me make it clear that I am not being facetious in pursuing this case, but am taking it quite seriously. I believe that it will make a nice reference point for other such situations, so good discussion is to be valued. I know where I stood at the beginning of this discussion, but do not know yet where I will stand at its conclusion. --EncycloPetey 17:34, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Um, the one labelled 'linguistics' applies perfectly well. Maybe it's a US thing and you're UK or Australia or something? Language Lover 18:26, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Nope, I'm US. (see blow) --EncycloPetey 17:50, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, it doesn't quite fit that sense, because it doesn't "have a particular meaning"; it's part of a larger phrase that has meaning, but on its own it seems that it doesn't. (That's kind of an iffy criterion; does (deprecated template usage) a have a particular meaning in “Veo a ella”? Words don't always have meanings, per se, and sometimes just have grammatical roles. But either way, (deprecated template usage) yadda doesn't seem to have either one.) —Ruakh_TALK 21:09, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

As Ruakh has pointed out, either we have a problem calling this a word, or our current definition of (deprecated template usage) word is inadequate. --EncycloPetey 17:50, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

When we first wrote this back in early 2006, there was a question about punctuation as well as about how many yadas. It was decided then to put the main entry at yada yada yada and to add redirects from some of the common permutations such as yada yada. —Stephen 06:37, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Not sure if three is any more correct. Two yaddas gets a good number of hits. One yadda? Send to RFV. DAVilla 05:27, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Keep somehow. I agree that this needs to be done better, but it looks like a word, and even a native English speaker would assume it was a word if (s)he didn't know better. Incidentally, however we decide to format this non-word-that-warrants-inclusion-anyway, we might want to use the same approach for misspellings. —Ruakh_TALK 21:09, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Not to spoil this as a test case, but yaddas are not always found in sequence. I've added some cites illustrating this, based on which I believe we should keep the entry. Also added another POS, but that might be dispensed with; it seems that, much like certain expletives, this can fill pretty much any grammatical role. Maybe we need a ===Placeholder=== POS. -- Visviva 17:31, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

کله کیر

It has been at requests for verification before but does not appear to be verified. The English definition has been removed by 64.62.138.100 (talk) but I reverted and decided to nominate it for deletion, unless it can be verified it should be deleted. 86.152.210.92 01:30, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

The fundamental meaning is correct, but the question is the semantic level. Literally it says "prick head", but I don’t know if it is used only in a vulgar sense or also in medical jargon. —Stephen 06:28, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

trundle along

From WT:RFC:

Is this a sum of parts, as in the example sentence given? Or is the example sentence wrong?—msh210℠ 20:54, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Both. A proper example would omit "the path" from the sentence, but then it's still just use of along as an adverb. You can "travel along (singing a song)", and do many other actions along. The only one of these that I can think of to call idiomatic is run along, which is often used as a mild command to "go away". --EncycloPetey 14:01, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Okay; thanks. Moving to RFD.—msh210℠ 15:39, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Please continue discussion here.—msh210℠ 15:41, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

delete - mere sum of parts. --EncycloPetey 17:28, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Weak keep. b.g.c. is crazy bad at counting, but trying a few searches, it seems like (deprecated template usage) trundle tends to be used with (deprecated template usage) along, making this a fixed expression. —Ruakh_TALK 23:37, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

I get the same number of returns on b.g.c. whether I search for "trundle along", "trundle out" or "trundle in". --EncycloPetey 01:25, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

• delete Widsith 14:54, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

• Strong keep It is a phrasal verb. Try using trundle without along and see what you get. -- Algrif 18:02, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Googled "trundle along to the" and just to give the first of hundreds:- I worked in Northampton in the mid 1980's and so I used quite regularly trundle along to the County Ground. -- Algrif 18:11, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, EP has already said above that "trundle in" and "trundle out" are equally valid. Widsith 21:36, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

• Big Delete. "Trundle", as a verb, is mainly transitive. But even when intransitive, most historical usages (in OED and in literary searches) come up without an "along". Consider the following:

The Wheels of Chance by H.G. Wells, Chapter 27,

...Might trundle back there in an hour

May-Day and Other Pieces by Ralph Waldo Emerson, Una,

But if upon the seas I sail,

Or trundle on the glowing rail...

The Weavers by Gilbert Parker, Chapter 23,

She watched the grotesque thing trundle away

-- WikiPedant 06:23, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry to disagree in a big way. But I don't think they used to wheel themselves to the County Ground. Remove or change the adverb, and you change the meaning. This is the whole point about phrasal verbs. This quote (and it is easy to find thousands more) shows trundle along to mean to go somewhere at a leisurely pace which is a far cry from the meaning of trundle, which has to do with wheels, BTW. -- Algrif 10:06, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

While I think there is some validity to this point, I note that the OED has "trundle" meaning go/walk with cites back to 1680, including for example Congreve's The Way of the World ("They are gone, Sir, in great anger." "Enough, let 'em trundle.") Methinks we should have a comparable sense at trundle, and that it should have a usage note indicating that this usually collocates with "along" in contemporary English. -- Visviva 16:54, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Still a delete. The intransitive "trundle" can mean to move by rolling (on wheels or otherwise) or to walk in a halting, rolling, or leisurely way and both of these senses can be accompanied by a range of modifiers, such as "in," "out," "up," "down," "over," "under," "away," or "toward." In each case, the resulting expression is just SOP. "Along" is not a special case, and I seriously doubt that it is even correct to concede that the intransitive verb "trundle" usually collocates with "along". -- WikiPedant 17:57, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I can only agree with these arguments IF, and only if, trundle can be shown to also mean move in a leisurely pace with any reasonable preposition / adverb, and not specific to wheels, which is a very important point. It will have to fit with the quotes (easily found) about ships, yachts, and boats that trundle along to a port or cove, etc. Though I must say, I've never heard of a boat trundling to a port. Another point is that I have to reject any argument about literal meanings. Most phrasal verbs also have literal meanings, which does not detract from their status as phrasal verbs. I also reject the arguments that because the verb can be found with other prepositions it is not phrasal with along, for the same reasoning. But the argument that trundle is very commonly found with along is in fact a supporing case for this very probably being a phrasal construction. As things stand at the moment, anyone trying to understand We trundled along to John's house by looking up trundle is going to end up being worse off than when he started. -- Algrif 11:49, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

No, the point that it is commonly found with along does not argue that it is phrasal because (as I pointed out above) it is equally common to find the adverb in or out used following trundle. It is also very commonly found as "trundle over" and "trundle back". No one adverb stands out as most common, which is, in fact, a strong argument that it is not a phrasal verb.

As to your entrenched stance and demand for proof, I personally doubt that sea turtles "wheel" themselves onto the beach, or that a memorandum is moved along this way, or that one exits one's car by means of wheels:

• 2005 — Kim Grant, Kimberly Grant, Glenda Bendure, Lonely Planet Publications (Firm), Ned Friary, Michael Clark, Conner Gorry, Hawaii, p286

  Nowadays it's famous mainly for green sea turtles that trundle out from the sea to bask in the sun after gorging on limu (seaweed).

• 1995 — Ged Martin, Britain and the Origins of Canadian Confederation, 1837-67, p107

  When Edmund Head offered to trundle out his favourite weapon, the memorandum...

• 2006 — Dave Van Ronk, Elijah Wald, Lawrence Block, The Mayor of Macdougal Street, p110

  So from time to time we would pull over to the side of the road, and I would trundle out, ice scraper in hand, to peel ten pounds of bird porridge off the windshield.

It's a shame you didn't take the proactive approach to look for these, because they were very easy to find. The problem is only that we need to amend the entry for (deprecated template usage) trundle. --EncycloPetey 13:29, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I did, in fact, take the time to look for these kind of examples too, EP. I agree entirely that trundle needs additional definitions. But that does not stop trundle along from being a phrasal verb, as well as being used literally. You are possibly being equally entrenched in saying that it isn't. What about examples such as-

• Many of us trundle along through life until we reach a tipping point for our energy systems.

Trundle along through ?? Sorry, but this really is a phrasal verb in these sort of examples. It's a shame you didn't check these typically phrasal structures out. ;-) -- Algrif 15:21, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

What about "Many of us trundle happily through life." Does that make trundle happily a phrasal verb? No. This is a case of (deprecated template usage) along used as an adverb, and I did check these "typically phrasal structures" out. My comments above show that I did (see "trundle out from the sea" & co.), so it's a shame you weren't reading my comments carefully. I chose that example deliberately.

I humored you in your demand for proof, even though (logically) the null hypothesis in a situation like this is that your claim is false, and so the burden of proof properly lies in demonstrating that trundle along is a phrasal verb. You have not proven that it is, and I have provided ample evidence that it isn't. Your criticisms have been answered, and you are alone in maintaining your position this is a phrasal verb. Everyone else disagrees with you in this matter. I consider the discussion settled, even if not unanimously. --EncycloPetey 18:04, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't need humoring, nor condescension. Trundle along is a phrasal verb. This is RFD by the way, which is why the burden of proof is on YOU to demonstrate why it should be deleted. I'm with you all the way on most of the comments, including the fact that the example in the entry is not an example of the phrasal verb. But there are literally hundreds of quickly citeable examples, even though (for some obscure reason) you don't accept them as such.

• Not-so-wealthy souls can only hope that someone will trundle along to the funeral with a few nice words.
• Trundle along to February 2005.
• ...as we trundle along in the trade winds.
• Civilizations trundle along through many imagined crises but this time we are facing challenges that will absolutely end our way of life within decades.
• OK, well I'll trundle along down with Nick and a late picnic lunch.

I think it is a big mistake to remove a perfectly good, citeable phrasal verb from the dictionary, while continuing to seriously consider some really stupid (and I know what this word means) entries. You will find some just a few lines below this discussion.

It really is NOT a case of whether you can say "trundle (in, down, null) to the funeral", "Trundle (in, down, null) to February 2005", "...as we trundle (in, down, null) in the trade winds." etc (Although they all sound very odd, particularly the trade winds one). If it were just that, then we could happily eliminate write down, fill up, close down, wander around etc. The point is that these are all used as phrasal verbs in everyday writing and speech. And so is trundle along. Still, have it your own way. Close your eyes to the evidence. I'll be bringing up (oops. Not a phrasal. Silly me) I'll be bringing write down, fill up, close down, etc. to RFD shortly. -- Algrif 13:07, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

You've misunderstood. I'm not saying that other adverbs/proepositions can be substituted to say the same thing; I am saying that numerical "proof" of a verb as phrasal is meaningless. Yes, "trundle" is frequently followed by "along", but no more so than by other adverbs of position or motion. The only argument that has been offered for this item being a phrasal verb is that the combination has some unspecified frequency. My point is that just because two words often occur next to each other does not mean that the combination deserves a dictionary entry.

You're missing another important point. For write down, fill up, etc. the phrasal verb is idiomatic. The verb write down down not mean from the top to the bottom of the page. To fill up something does not necessarily mean that it is filled in an upwards direction. These combinations are themselves idiomatic in a way that trundle along is not. --EncycloPetey 00:33, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm not missing any point here at all. 1. I don't think I ever mentioned numbers, did I? If you refer to the "thousands of easily found examples", it does not mean that I think statistics have anything to do with whether a verb is a phrasal verb or not. 2.To be a phrasal verb construction does not necessarily mean there is any strictly idiomatic meaning. This is why I mention write down and fill up as examples of readily accepted phrasal verbs with a non-idiomatic meaning. fill up = fill. Write down = write. But there are certain characteristics of phrasal verbs which show indivisibility of meaning. Examples such as

• ...as we trundle along in the trade winds.
• I'll trundle along down with Nick later.

demonstrate that this construction is phrasal, and is in use. It is well known that even the most respected authorities argue constantly about these borderline cases. My opinion is that Wikt generally includes this kind of thing rather than eliminates. I propose taking this over to BP to try to hammer out some guidelines for phrasal verbs vs. SoP. I will write a discussion start for BP asap (work commitments allowing). I would just like to add one aside:- When I started on Wikt a year and a bit ago, there were only 22 entries in Category:English phrasal verbs. There are now well over 800. Thanks to all the interested collaborators. There are are considered to be something over 3,000 phrasal verbs in the English language in general use, so we still have plenty of work to do. -- Algrif 10:59, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

(1) Look back at your arguments to refresh your memory. You've pointed at the big numbers more than once in your arguments. (2) You've missed part my last post completely. The phrasal verb write down is idiomatic by virtue of a change in the meaning of "down". Where are you writing it? Down. Obviously that doesn't make sense, because "down" is part of the phrasal verb and not an adverb. The phrasal verb fill up is also idiomatic since a balloon filled "up" is not filled in an upwards direction. How is it filled? Up. Again, it doesn't make sense to ask that because "up" is a directional word, and the filling does not necessarily happen in the direction indicated, not is "up" functioning as an adverb. With trundle along, this does not happen. Where did he trundle? Along. The word "along" fuliflls the function of an adverb and answers the quesiton of an adverb. Your latest supporting examples still do not demonstrate that we have a phrasal verb here. Consider:

• ...as we sail along in the trade winds. ...as we toss along in the trade winds. ...as we drift along in the trade winds. ...as we [verb of motion] along in the trade winds.
• I'll stroll along down with Nick later. I'll mosey along down with Nick later. I'll saunter along down with Nick later. I'll ease along down with Nick later.

In none of these examples do we see any of the behavior of a phrasal verb. And, BTW. the discussion in the BP already started. --EncycloPetey 02:35, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Strong keep - trundle should perhaps be a soft redirect to the common form (the only form I've ever heard, in fact) trundle along. If someone said "I will just trundle." or "I'm going to the beach to trundle." they would not (or rather, should not) expect to be understood. While sail, toss, drift, stroll, mosey, saunter and ease are used in English without along, the word trundle (almost without exception) is only used with along. To suggest otherwise, would be seriously misleading our readers. --Connel MacKenzie 23:51, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Weak delete. It seems the arguments would have us keep a lot of stuff with "along", but I'm willing to reconsider. DAVilla 05:22, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Strong delete. First of all, the entry as it stands is bad: the definition is arguably for "trundle" alone, and the example given is not for "trundle" + adverb but for "trundle" + preposition, which is definitely not Wiktionary material as constructions of the form verb + preposition cannot exist independently of a noun or pronoun (whether after or before).

But here's the real reason this has to be go. There are a bunch of verbs in English that can be followed by an adverb of place that have the sense of "go in a particular manner/direction". For example, "pop", in the sense of "go quickly", can be found as "pop out to the shops", "pop downstairs to see who is at the door", "pop round to my grandmother's house", "pop it through the hole", etc. Dictionary entries for these sorts of verbs are always for the verb alone; each of the adverbs just qualifies how the verb is being done (mainly, the direction of motion). In all of these cases, "pop" can be replaced with "go" (for the intransitive uses) or "put" (for the transitive uses), and "go downstairs", "put ... through", etc, are neither idiomatic not phrasal verbs for the same reason.

In the case of "trundle", there are plenty of adverbs that can be placed after it: here are some examples from Google (note however that "trundle" is sometimes a proper or common noun or something else in many of these hits, and the adverb is sometimes a preposition, so the numbers of hits are only a guide):

• trundle around (8260 hits): [18]
• trundle away (1460 hits): [19]
• trundle in (26,900 hits): [20] (requires log-in to Google Books)
• trundle off (11,700 hits): [21]
• trundle out (6430 hits): [22]

So "trundle along" is by no means a special case of "trundle" + adverb, neither is it a phrasal verb (as it has no meaning beyond "trundle" + "along") and so it certainly should be deleted. — Paul G 12:42, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Comment. B.g.c. searches for phrases like "trundling along toward" and "trundling along by" pull up some hits that suggest to me that for some speakers, (deprecated template usage) trundle along is a fixed expression meaning what (deprecated template usage) trundle alone means for others. (Please click through and see if they suggest the same to you.) Connel's comment above suggests that he belongs to the former group; and I think I belong to it as well (this isn't a word I use myself, but when I hear (deprecated template usage) trundle I definitely expect the next word to be (deprecated template usage) along). If I'm right about this, then I think we should keep [[trundle along]] and seek information about what sort of variation (regional?) is at work here. —Ruakh_TALK 18:03, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Keep per Algrif and Ruakh.—msh210℠ 23:42, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Kept. Conrad.Irwin 20:56, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

scene kid

Is this SoP? Basically a "kid" participating in a popular cultural "scene". DCDuring TALK 22:20, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Doesn't feel sum of parts to me, though I'm not sure why. In any case, this would be sense 10 out of 9 for scene; no definition specific to music is present in that entry currently. -- Visviva 17:02, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I think this is pretty much accurate...— This unsigned comment was added by 91.106.12.38 (talk) at 18:22, 14 July 2008.

-ostomy

I think the proper suffix is -stomy (making a hole). The "-o-" is added for euphony. Should we have this as a full entry, redirect, not at all, or what? DCDuring TALK 01:44, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh no, not this again. I get a headache just looking at that discussion. Agree that this should be a soft redirect to -stomy; -ostomy may (or may) not be a "real" suffix, but we cannot assume that either users or contributors will be aware of this. -- Visviva 16:58, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

-o- is incidental. The real problem to me was that the more correct suffix -stomy wasn't an entry. I don't want to waste folks' time on this. I suppose having an extra "erroneous" suffix really doesn't matter much since suffix entries are rarely used to support or validate usage (which would be new word coinage). The words will be coined by influence of past practice and, now, the emergence of the word ostomy.

MW online has -stomy, not -ostomy. I'd expect the same from most dictionaries that have suffixes. DCDuring TALK 17:49, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I think it would be useful to have this as a misspelling of/misconstruction of -stomy entry with a usage note explaining the -o-. Thryduulf+

Likewise for the OED, but the OED has both -logy and -ology, which seems like an identical situation. Similarly for the Collins Concise I have at hand at the moment. Since the business of infixation is opaque even to most native speakers, including many contributors here, I'd say we should have both such forms for every suffix (though the -o- form should preferably be a soft redirect with usage note, per Thryduulf). -- Visviva 06:26, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

on me

As in "I'm paying". SoP if we have the right sense of on, which would take any noun phrase in this sense. Or am I missing something? DCDuring TALK 01:22, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

It’s a common idiom. If you didn’t already know what it meant, you wouldn’t guess the meaning from on + me. The beer is on me sounds logically as though I’m wearing the beer. —Stephen 02:59, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Definitely a useful expression for a non-native speaker, adds value, SoP or not. --Hekaheka 03:40, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

But the phrase is not "on me". It is "on NP", where NP could be "me, "you", "him", "them", "us", "Uncle Sam", "the house", "the company", "my wife's family", any personal name, etc. How many of the forms would we need as either headwords or usage examples to capture enough of the searches? On the house should make it on its own merits. I have entered the relevant sense of on. DCDuring TALK 04:18, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

In which case I think this should be treated as an idiom and redirected to on somebody.

I don't object. All the pronouns should redirect to on someone or on somebody. (Do we prefer "someone" over "somebody") The same effect is accomplished by including all the different likely forms (all those using pronouns) as alternates, usage examples, or citations (in principal namespace). And that still doesn't fully address all the forms. I suppose that if someone searches for a term that has a space in it, we could generate some kind of help screen that informs them of our someone/body/thing lemma format for such entries. DCDuring TALK 15:58, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Are we obliged to included some reference to all the non-idiomatic possible meanings of "on someone" in the entry to "reduce confusion" by showing the contrasts? Is this really an idiom ? To me it is just a meaning of on that is not necessarily in a language learner's experience. DCDuring TALK 16:09, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

• Delete, but it would be nice to have a Phrasebook entry for it's on me. -- Visviva 06:00, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
• Delete SoP. If we keep, then move to on someone with redirects from on me et al.—msh210℠ 17:58, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
• Keep, probably as a redirect to on somebody (or on something?). Conrad.Irwin 17:10, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

• Delete The financial responsibility sense of "on" is a modest extension of the the general responsibility sense of "on", which is, in turn, a reasonable figurative extension (along the lines of "burden of responsibility") of the more physical senses of "on". How many senses of "on" would we want reflected in the "on somebody" and "on something" entries? We would need to make sure that a user didn't think that the financial responsibility sense was the only one that could connect "on" and a person (or other financially responsible entity) That would essentially mean duplicating much of on. I don't see how we can include this without being compelled to include almost any slightly unusual or regionally restricted figurative use of any preposition with its object. Why should we bother having the preposition entries themselves? DCDuring TALK 18:13, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

• Keep as a set phrase, but determine the most common form (on the house, on him, on her, on their tab, on someone, etc.) and soft-link the others to it (probably this one, as on the house is distinct.) --Connel MacKenzie 01:00, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

• Move to be on someone/body. DAVilla 05:03, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

• Yuk, nasty. In that case, we could have "be in something", etc. In any case, "be on someone/somebody" excludes the possibility of phrases like "this is on the company" ( = the company is paying for this). This is just a special sense of the preposition "on", which is where this sense belongs — something like "to be paid for by (the person, people, organisation, etc, following "on") as a treat, rather than by someone else or jointly". Not my best attempt at a definition, but it's something like that. "On the house" is good to keep ("house" has a special meaning here, so this is idiomatic), but on + pronoun needs to be deleted. — Paul G 12:52, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

The last sense of on#Preposition is currently:

1. Paid for by.

   The drinks are on me tonight, boys.

   The meal is on the house.

Does this need improvement? Or an extra sense? The more general meaning is something like "burdening". For example, "the responsibility for cleaning up the mess in on her." Note the usage examples include the most common objects. on the house is fairly idiomatic though. If we can make "on" good enough, perhaps we can get this to a delete consensus. DCDuring TALK 15:08, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Keep. The entry at on is quite clearly sufficient. BUT, the Phrasebook argument is strong enough for this entry to be kept for that purpose alone. IMHO. -- Algrif 15:36, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Added Phrasebook category. Category has fewer than 100 English entries. DCDuring TALK 16:03, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

wait for

(From RFV)

---

I can see nothing but a sum of parts, wait and for Goldenrowley 03:53, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

---

We don't have that sense of for, and I'm not sure how it would be written. Waiting for someone does not necessarily mean to wait on that person's behalf; you might even be waiting for someone on someone else's behalf ("my boss asked me to wait for his daughter.") -- Visviva 06:10, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

---

I am not sure I understand the comment, two of the definitions of "for" apply after "wait":

1. for =Supporting (opposite of against).

   I wait for you to love me

2. for = Because of.

   I wait for love

Goldenrowley 19:09, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Abstain. I believe that the relevant sense of (deprecated template usage) for is one that we don't yet have — something like this:

1. Used to construe various verbs.

   Don't wait for an answer.

   What did he ask you for?

   He was convicted for murder. (We currently have this as an example for the “Because of.” sense, but that can't be right, as “He was wrongly convicted for a murder that never happened” is perfectly standard.)

   I'm looking for my friend.

— but that's no reason to keep wait for. On the other hand, in my experience we're pretty arbitrary about which verbs we take as phrasal and define on their own, and which ones we define at the main verb entry; if we expect our readers to be able to predict this, we might as well give up now on ever having readers. —Ruakh_TALK 19:58, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

An experienced Wiktionary user will try multiple approaches, knowing by experience that we are often inconsistent. A new user is more likely to type in "wait for" (or "wait") than "for", IMO. I am not yet certain that we have fully and accurately defined the senses of "wait for". DCDuring TALK 20:24, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit conflict]

IMO those are not the right senses of "for".

1. In the first example the emotional content has introduced the idea of support, but that is not common and not relevant to the meaning at hand. For example, in the sentence "I am waiting for the other shoe to drop." the "support" notion does not apply in any way.
2. In ordinary language "cause" usually doesn't refer to a goal or an event in the future, but rather something from the past. "I am waiting for my hanging for my love." shows two sense of "for", the first is the sense that had been missing and the second is the cause sense.

"Wait for" is roughly synonymous with "await". MW3 shows 10 major senses and 18 subsenses of "for". There are obvious parallels among the senses, derived from a basic spatial metaphor applied in various ways, but they are distinguishable. DCDuring TALK 20:06, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree delete. This is just sum of parts, with (deprecated template usage) for leading off a prepositional phrase in the examples above. --EncycloPetey 20:17, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

• I think keep, myself. How would you know how to translate it? wait for is a single transitive verb in many (most?) languages. Widsith 20:52, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I am afraid if we go down the route to say we cannot define "for", then we will have to make entries for things like "hold for", "stop for", etc. I think the word "for" is a word that links the word "wait" with the reason for waiting.. just as it links many other words to their reasons. Goldenrowley 22:29, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. To me, wait for sounds obviously more idiomatic than "stop for". The point is that, despite having a transitive verb await, the natural way to express the idea in English is to use an intransitive verb (wait) with a preposition. This is quite unlike the situation in other languages. It is not a matter of "not being able" to define for, but rather that it is more appropriate and helpful to consider this to be a compound verb. Widsith 08:53, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

For me that's not the issue. We ought to have both the appropriate senses for "for" and whatever phrasal verbs or idiomatic expressions use "for". In gray-area cases I favor being nice to naive users by including more likely-to-be-searched terms both as headwords and elsewhere, in alternative forms, usage examples, and usage notes. DCDuring TALK 23:36, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Weak delete, and wait on too. If we delete, we need a usage note s.v. wait.—msh210℠ 17:46, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

• Delete, and improve the definition of for. My rule of thumb on deciding whether something is a phrasal verb or just a verb followed by a preposition is whether it can be felicitously passivized. In this way, wait for is very different from, say wait on, which is definitely a phrasal verb. "Yesterday I was waited on by a very good-looking waiter" is perfectly grammatical, but ???"Yesterday I was waited for by a very good-looking customer" sounds quite odd. (It's still better than *"The store was gone to", though, so maybe it's slightly more phrasal than go to, which is definitely SOP.) Angr 17:57, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

• wait for cannot be translated by looking up wait and for, because the two words are translated by a single word in most other languages. Using two words is idiomatic English, not to mentiona a common set phrase. Why not have it? Widsith 20:32, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

• I don't know if I agree with your premise. The correct way to translate (deprecated template usage) wait for is to look up (deprecated template usage) wait, find its translation, and see what preposition the translation is construed with. For example, the Hebrew translation of (deprecated template usage) wait is (deprecated template usage) חיכה (khiká), so you'd look that up, and find that in the relevant sense, it's construed with (deprecated template usage) ל־ (l'-). Problem solved. Unless you're saying that most languages use different words for (deprecated template usage) wait for as for bare (deprecated template usage) wait; but I don't think you are, and if you were, then it seems like we'd need the translation of (deprecated template usage) wait for at wait in order to prevent confusion. —Ruakh_TALK 22:49, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

• Er...I'm not sure, until that Hebrew page is created, how clear that will be. From what you are saying, though, I think that case is less confusing than translations which do not take any preposition at all. The French word attendre for instance — to me the defs wait (intransitive) and wait for (transitive) would ideally be on separate lines and link to separate English entries. The English word wait can be used with different prepositions – for, until, about, around, on, up — all of which effectively create very different "indirect" verbs, some transitive and others in-. Now while this can be dealt with through good preposition information at wait (the current entry is nowhere near, btw), I don't see why it's not more helpful to make common collocations such as wait for pages in their own right. As well, if not instead. Widsith 17:16, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

• While I appreciate Widsith's valient efforts to find a perfect translation of words from other languages into English, the primary purpose of English Wikipedia is to define English words and phrases, not to fit what other languages have (that we do not) or to force the translations into English. For example we load English idioms here, we do not load English translations of French idioms (just because they can be translated). That having been said, "wait" implies we are waiting "for" something, in most cases. I never hear anyone "wait from" anything. Goldenrowley 03:57, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

  I don't see how anything I've suggested interferes with this "primary purpose" you are talking about. But whatever, I'm done. Widsith 06:29, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Delete with explanation at wait, and possibly splitting translations (if we still do that). DAVilla 06:44, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

I was about to delete this, but is there anything salvageable (movable) among the translations?—msh210℠ 19:28, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

A sign that something is merely SoP is if it translates literally and nicely into numerous other languages. I don’t know of another language that has this particular construction. English "wait for him" becomes in German "warten Sie auf ihn" (not "warten Sie für ihn"). In Spanish, I’d say "espéralo" (not "espera para él"). In Russian, "ожидайте его" (not "ждите для него"). It’s idiomatic. Keep. —Stephen 22:32, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

(Further to the above) Also, this phrase can be tricky, because it has different meanings (wait for him vs. wait for him to do something...German "warte auf ihn" vs. "warte, dass er etwas tut"), and the sense "wait for him" has at least two subsenses (await his imminent arrival vs. wait part of a lifetime until he returns from duty or is released from captivity, with an eye towards marriage). —Stephen 23:17, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

On the flip side, one can also say "he waited three hours for her", or "he waited three hours for her to finish", so even if we keep [[wait for]], won't we have to duplicate all its information at [[wait]]? —Ruakh_TALK 23:30, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

In the interest of keep the entry for wait of reasonable size, wouldn't it be desirable to have the wait for usage notes and examples separate from any such for wait? Something terse, but not hidden under show/hide, at wait that pointed to wait for would provide users the needed trail to follow. I know that size of entry is not a linguistic consideration, but it is a meaningful practical one for users if we want to give them OED-type depth of information. We haven't solved the problem of how to do that with single large entries. DCDuring TALK 23:53, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

As a staunch supporter of phrasal verbs, I have stayed away from this discussion because I am not convinced it is really phrasal. But following through the debate it is clear that 1. it is borderline phrasal for a number of reasons (although "he waited three hours for her" is a demonstration of non-phrasal status), and 2. trying to put all those usage notes everywhere would be anything but useful!!. So on the grounds of practical utility for the users, I think we should Keep this entry, with usage notes in the entry itself. -- ALGRIF talk 16:13, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

June 2008

cosmocrat

Five redundant definitions, to my mind. What does anyone else think? Conrad.Irwin 23:25, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

IMO, rfv for each sense, given the long history. Either it's truly citable or the senses need to be merged so that there are enough cites to cover the overlapping senses. So far there are some uses, but the citation effort seems to have been misdirected. Perhaps the OED is citing some obscure theological sources that have not been scanned and are not readily available to us. DCDuring TALK 00:34, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

The OED Online gives only two cites for (deprecated template usage) cosmocrat proper — this one from 1820, which capitalizes it, and this one from 1870, which does not (though the OED Online transcribes the latter cite a bit differently from what you see on b.g.c. — it omits the word (deprecated template usage) just — so there may be more to the story). Also, in the same entry, it gives one cite each for (deprecated template usage) cosmocratic, (deprecated template usage) Cosmocratores, and (deprecated template usage) cosmocrators. —Ruakh_TALK 02:06, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I have a rather different mix of citations of uses in "modern" histories that use the word in closely related, mostly non-divine ways. One sense is something like cosmopolitan bureaucrat, another is the B-School "masters of the universe" sense, another is ancient imperial divine king (Nero, Augustus, Pompeii), and a more divine sense, which gets its citations as much from Tantra as Christianity, though they may be separable. Some are a bit mention-y, but not purely so. The senses certainly show a lot of relatedness. DCDuring TALK 03:40, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Delete/Merge. The senses listed for "Deletion" look redundant to me. I don't see anything in any of the supplied citations to warrant these additional "senses". --EncycloPetey 19:06, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

• Keep - each definition adds meaning and depth to the word. The definitions are individually different and each is correct. None of the definitions should not be deleted or merged. WritersCramp 02:06, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

• Move to RfV. Probably not possible to cite all, but worth a shot. DCDuring TALK 02:19, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

WritersCramp has done some merging. It looks good to me now, but if someone wants to, the citations page can be rearranged to match. DAVilla 06:34, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

zorb

Looks like spam, but might not be. NZ? DCDuring TALK 19:08, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

I think the Concise Oxford English Dictionary has now accepted the noun zorbing (since 2002). —Stephen 17:43, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

We've had it since '06. Maybe zorb just needs cleanup by someone who knows or cares. DCDuring TALK 00:26, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

The existence of the noun "zorbing" does not automatically imply the existence of the back-formation "zorb", if that is what it is supposed to be. — Paul G 11:57, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

CL

rfd-sense Prefix for Canadair aircraft models. We have government aircraft prefixes, but not DC, as in DC-3, for the fabled twin-prop. DCDuring TALK 20:47, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm clueless about the topic, so please bear with me. By "we" do you mean Wiktionary? Can you give some examples of "government aircraft prefixes" that we include? What are CL and DC instead? (Canadair used to be nationalized; would that make its prefix a government one, at least during that time period?) Why does this distinction bear on inclusion here? (I'm not saying that it doesn't, I'm just really clueless about this). —Ruakh_TALK 00:28, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

The Imperial Wiktionary we, yes. Both are arguably "private". If government enterprises are exempt from our rules on things like trademarks and such, do we have to keep track of shareholdings to know whether an item should be included? How much government ownership would get an entity over the hump? I really hope that government ownership will be a red canard.

DC stood for the Douglas Commercial, Douglas being Douglas Aircraft, the leading commercial aircraft company until Boeing came from their second position at the onset of the jet age. DC-3 through D-10 were their model numbers. The MD-80 is a descendant of the DC-9. US military prefixes are abundant. There are many, many naval ones, ranging from USS, to CVN, similarly for armored vehicles and helicopters. Surprisingly the Air Force hasn't gotten very many of their designations in. I don;t know about the government equipment designating prefixes. Our standards for abbreviations might allow them. The manufacturers' designations seem different to me. Mind you, I'd think we'd be better to have more trademarks, place names, etc. in Wiktionary, but rules is rules. DCDuring TALK 00:57, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

So are "CL", "DC", etc. assigned by some external authority, or is it just something the manufacturers do? If the former, I'm inclined to think of it as a meaningful and neutral unit that may be worth defining here; if the latter, I'm inclined to think of it as low-grade spam — not a big deal, but not something we'd want to encourage. —Ruakh_TALK 02:59, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

And, thanks for explaining so patiently. :-) —Ruakh_TALK 03:04, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Manufacturers. The manufacturer's don't care enough to spam us. But there are plenty of fans for all kinds of boys' toys, especially "heavy metal". I have not been immune to the fascination of some of this. The two-letter airline codes (now augmented by additional codes), the three-letter airport codes, military equipment designations, .... Lists galore. The idea that we limit ourselves to product and brand names that convey more meaning than what they directly designate seems like a good idea, if we are going to exclude brands and company names. I'm not so clear whether we have drawn the line in the same place for abbreviations. It probably warrants some clarification of how our existing standards apply to determine if we need more. I see a lot of low-quality material in abbreviations. Not every government program and agency really merits inclusion of its abbreviation. I haven't seen terribly many RfV challenges to it. I don't find most of the abbreviations on Ullman's not-counted list to be worth fixing. I also don't think we should swamp the RfV/RfD with challenges without clarifying CFI for abbreviations. DCDuring TALK 04:19, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

artificial_grammar

rfc hasn't elicited good def in one year. DCDuring TALK 09:09, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

The only usage I know of means "bit of made-up language" (a severely reduced, ad hoc construction as opposed to a complete constructed language such as Esperanto or Ido). Made-up language tests are sometimes used to test language-learning ability. The U.S. Government used to use these tests to qualify applicants to the Defense Language Institute. See w:Artificial grammar learning. —Stephen 14:21, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Looking at th WP stub article and the first 2 pages of the 600+ raw b.g.c. hits, it seems SoP to me, but similar phrases have passed RfD. DCDuring TALK 15:54, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

I've replaced the definition and removed rfc, but it still looks SoP to me. DCDuring TALK 16:18, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't see this as SoP any more than artificial intelligence. Since it is used attributively in artificial grammar learning, it should satisfy CFI. I'll try to find a more thorough explanation, since the current definition seems somehow lacking, but I can't articulate quite why I think that. --EncycloPetey 16:37, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the current definition simply defines grammar. artificial grammar means "small bit of made-up language, used for testing language-learning ability". —Stephen 17:05, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

July 2008

drift

rfd-sense: "The material left behind by the retreat of continental glaciers. It buries former river valleys and creates young river valleys. The Driftless Area, a geographical area of North America, was unglaciated for the past 510 million years. Mass noun." Should this be a new entry or is it too encyclopedic? DCDuring TALK 23:39, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Keep it, but remove that part about the Driftless Area (which does make the definition sound a bit encyclopedic). There's no need for a new entry.--♠TBC♠ 02:42, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

I see your point

Not an idiom, as the meaning can be deduced by the literal definition of each word (point can mean view or opinion, as in, "I agree with him. He has a point.")--♠TBC♠ 04:55, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Delete. Hard to consider this anything but sum of parts.--Dmol 12:30, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Delete. An easy case. DCDuring TALK 15:27, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Keep. This particular phrase is only used sarcastically, as the example illustrates. --Connel MacKenzie 21:24, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

I dispute that it is only used sarcastically. I have heard it used mostly in the straight, SoP, sense. Sarcasm alone doesn't give an expression its own meaning. It depends for its force on the inherent straight meaning. DCDuring TALK 21:37, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Virtually any phrase like the one nominated can be said sarcastically (I understand you, I know what you mean), but that doesn't really add to the meaning of the term.--♠TBC♠ 23:50, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Sarcastic only might be legitimate grounds in my view, but I agree that this isn't true of this phrase. We all have our own set expressions, and if Connel claims to only use it sarcastically himself then I have no reason to doubt him, but in general I think the sarcastic use is less common. DAVilla 05:44, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Keep - only applicable to one of the umpteen sense of point. bd2412 T 01:13, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

How does that merit inclusion? Irregardless of how many senses point has, the phrase still uses a literal definition of the word, and as such, the phrase is not an idiom.--♠TBC♠ 03:49, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Ok, how about this, the particular kind of point to which the phrase refers is one that can not actually be "seen". It's an abstract philosophical concept, so to "see" one's point means something other than to "see" a "point".

That might support keeping this as see one's point, but would not favor keeping the entry under the current name. --EncycloPetey 22:40, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

I'd support moving it to see one's point. bd2412 T 23:19, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Seeing does not always refer to physically seeing something. "To understand" is also a sense for "see". As in, "I see what he means", "I see his rationale", "I see why he did this".--TBC 09:21, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Delete. Sum of (deprecated template usage) I + (deprecated template usage) see someone's point (with (deprecated template usage) someone = (deprecated template usage) you), and AFAICT usually not used sarcastically (pace Connel). Further, though Jmabel (talk • contribs) is correct in writing, "this phrase is often used as a polite preface to disagreement" (on Talk:I see your point), this is also true of other equivalent phrases with the same basic meaning ((deprecated template usage) I see what you're saying, (deprecated template usage) I get your point, (deprecated template usage) I take your point; even (deprecated template usage) that's true and (deprecated template usage) I agree). —Ruakh_TALK 05:55, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Delete per nom. (Not only sarcastic.)—msh210℠ 17:18, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Delete per nom; there is not set phrase since multiple pronouns could be substituted here, and the verb may be inflected: She saw my point; Do you see our point?; We can't see their point; etc. --EncycloPetey 18:14, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Delete. SoP. -- WikiPedant 20:27, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Keep as phrasebook entry at least. Highly unusual in that "see" and "point" are not the most common words for the selected meanings, while the phrase is so common as to qualify as a speech act. I don't think moving is a good idea because the latter does not apply in any other frame. ("He saw your point"?) Thus the score isn't too bad on either the never mind test or the "mind was crossed" test. Also, compare to "I get the point." There's an admission of concession inherent in this phrase which is more than a sum of its parts. DAVilla 05:44, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Deleted.—msh210℠ 20:41, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

epicaricacy

This has previously failed with several spelling variations in the past. Resubmitted again without citations, this is a shoot on sight, still, right? Perhaps if more admins paid attention to it... --Connel MacKenzie 21:17, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

See also Wiktionary:Tea_room#epicaricacy. delete This hasn't yet been shown to meet CFI, despite considerable efforts by several people. We should keep the citations page though, as it does contain useful information. Conrad.Irwin 21:30, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

• I am ambivalent about this one, but to be fair it's not true to say that it is "without citations". They are on the Citations:epicaricacy space. Widsith 12:45, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

It has three cites. It certainly can't be shoot-on-sight. How are the cites unsatisfactory? Groups is going to make many of these words rarely (never?) used in print more likely to find some real usage in durably cited media. DCDuring TALK 20:36, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

posthumous execution

There was previously an RFD request on this, but it was withdrawn. I'd like to restore the request, as I think the term is SOP: for example, google books:"posthumous public execution" also gets a few hits, and google books:"execution of his corpse" gets one, and the related google books:"executed posthumously" gets a good number. Also, the current definition makes it sound like this has nothing to do with the normal senses of (deprecated template usage) execution, but as w:Posthumous execution makes clear, the term is used specifically when the body is "executed" in a way that would actually be used for execution — hanging, beheading, crucifixion, shooting, etc. All told, I think this is simply a less-common sense of (deprecated template usage) execute and (deprecated template usage) execution that's missing from those entries, together with a clarifying adjective, and not a phrase unto itself warranting inclusion in a dictionary. (I'm open to contrary opinions, however.) —Ruakh_TALK 14:58, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

How strange. Ammended execution. DAVilla 06:27, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Keep. It's not really execution, but as the definition says, "ritual desecration" . Almost idiomatic in that sense. I'd even say it is a set phrase, although of course there are other similar phrases that can mean the same thing.--Dmol 06:27, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Pokemons

The correct plural is Pokemon (or the official spelling, Pokémon), no? Teh Rote 21:20, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Incorrect, but still quite common. Weak keep as a mis-spelling or non-standard spelling.--Dmol 21:27, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

From what I gather, Pokemons is a tongue-in-cheek "Engrish" way of referring to Pokemon. Not sure whether or not that merits inclusion, though.--TBC 21:35, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Keep per Dmol. Circeus 23:41, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

I might say delete since from my experience (I am a fan after all) this is just an example of "being stupid to be funny" which is comparable to what is done in the following extract from a Will and Grace (the sitcom) script

WILL: [TO GRACE] Hi. [TO PUPPY, PUPPY-TALK VOICE] May I bite your snoots? May I bite your snoots from loves?

GRACE: Please stop pluralizing everything.

WILL: But he's so cutes!

GRACE: Look at mes. I can't believe you are still playing with the puppy. You've been home for 3 hours, and you haven't moved. --50 Xylophone Players talk 20:01, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

300 googlebooks. RJFJR 21:17, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

DAB

Translingual section (transliteration of a cuneiform sign). If I remember correctly, we don't do transliterations unless native speakers use them. Could be wrong, but I think all the native speakers died well before Latin characters were invented, so..... -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 06:40, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Not sure. I seem to remember a discussion about extinct languages regularly written in transcription in scholarly works. I think it was a discussion about Egyptian hieroglyphics or perhaps Coptic, but I can't locate it. Anyone else remember something of this that might help locate the discussion? --EncycloPetey 08:09, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't know if this is relevant, but we're currently using transliterations for a number of ancient languages whose scripts are not yet unicode supported, such as hieroglyphics and the Tocharians. However, it is my understanding that this is a temporary measure, until those scripts become supported. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 08:14, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Keep Yes, it is typical for Akkadian, or Assyro-Babylonian cuneiform signs to be Latinised and I doubt strongly that the questionmark appearing as ("the Cuneiform sign ? ") could ever be comprehensive for anyone. There are transition rules and lists with original and Latinised signs, but in none of the two or three I had seen were the cuneiform signs digitalised, but instead rendered with the help of images, which are the only sensible way (hitherto) for Akkadian, Ugaritic and Eblaite and since original cuneiform signs are absent from Unicode (now and in foreseeable future) and the Latin correspondence is the only wise to reach the original source (in digitalised texts, printing books is another matter) besides .png, .tiff or whatsoever images, I oppose the deletion. Bogorm 22:31, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Delete Cuneiform is present in Unicode, in all it's glorious varieties of signs as they evolved merged to the same code points which should in theory be handled at the font-level (imagine Phoenician and Greek alpha and Latin 'a' all to be handled at font-display level!!) But it will take a lots of time until all the switches inside the {{Xsux}} get proper font support. Ugaritic is also present at unicode (see Appendix:Ugaritic abjad). The policy is to write languges in original script, and creating dozens of ===Transliteration=== redirects for every phonetic transcription of 𒁳 that was reconstructed to be used for writing languages in 3 different families (IE, Semitic and Sumerian which is language isolate) would not be reasonable, as the 𒁳 is already reachable by using usual search on DAB [23] --Ivan Štambuk 23:16, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I do not know about which Unicode you are talking, but my OS based on UTF-16 is displaying but questionmarks and I do not dare to know what happens to the users with OS relying on UTF-8, but if you speak of some imaginary UTF-256, yes, perchance the Akkadian and Eblaite cuneiforms may be included there. As for now, leaving the reader with the questionmarks alone and with not image represantation would be too merciless. In addition, Burmese alphabet, wherever I come across it in Wikipedia, is too rendered as questionmarks and I am sure that if Unicode does not comprise a living language spoken by 40 000 000, one should be far more cautious in what concerns ancient ones. Bogorm 08:40, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Bogorm, you have already established on numerous occasions that you cannot see (or cannot see properly) a great number of scripts that others can. Thus, I think that the fact that you cannot see something is not great evidence that no one can see it. However, with the pending discussion concerning transliterations, I think we should hold off on deleting this. Inasmuch as I would very much like to see this entry go away, if the community decides that transliteration entries are something we want........then I have no power to stop them......much to my chagrin. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 09:00, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I am using a quite modern operating system(from the current decade), live in a European Union state and cannot see this rare, advanced and complicated scripts. Have you ever thought that readers of Wiktionary with even older software should not be repelled from Wiktionary, that in India and Africa there are innumerable users of Windows 98 or Windows 95, when no Unicode was in question at all and that they deserve at least a little bit of mercy from self-conceit users from developped countries (not all of them are such, hopefully you neither) ? Transliteration entries for languages outside Unicode (UTF-8) should at any cost be preserved in order to show understanding for the mentioned users and because one ought not to embrace any innovation and to impose it on others. Bogorm 09:09, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I can only pity users of Win9x and other non-Unicode OSes. There are several free and Unicode compliant cuneiform fonts available on the Web, one trivial search query away, for anybody to use. There should probably be some kind of appendix discussing these "obscure fonts", where to get them and how to install them, on language-specific basis, and this was already partially discussed in BP for some Old Persian entries. One special problem with cuneiform is that it cannot be really "transliterated" as one sign had lots of (reconstructed) phonetic values in various languages it was used, so what gives DAB more prominence than DIB, not to mention akkadian sequence of dib, dip, dab, dap, tib, tip, ṭib, ṭip listed in the entry? Search on transliteration cupled with the keyword of "cuneiform" or "sumerian" yields proper-script entry immediately, usually as the first search result, so it shouldn't be out of reach of anyone willing to utilize his brain cells instead of figuring out how to copy/paste Akkadian.otf to his %WINDIR%\Fonts folder.. --Ivan Štambuk 10:37, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

point of the compass

I'm not really into what goes as "sum of parts" and not, but for me this really looks like a noun being the sum of its parts. --Eivind (t) 15:55, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Huh? It's not a literal sharp point on a drawing compass; it's one of the 16 cardinal directions marked on a navigational compass. The definition could certainly be improved, but it's not merely SoP. --EncycloPetey 16:44, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I would agree .... except that we already have compass point. How about a redirect, if you don't want to delete? -- Algrif 16:48, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, no-one said "point" is a "sharp point". "Compass point" is one of the definitons for "point", therefore I reckoned "point of the compass" must be the sum of its parts. --Eivind (t) 16:57, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Once one is talking about a compass, then isn't the specific sense of "point" obvious and, therefore, isn't it SoP? DCDuring TALK 17:19, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Either keep as is or redirect to compass point. You can’t translate point of the compass into other languages simply by the individual words, you have to look up the specific phrase (or compass point). —Stephen 17:27, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

To answer DCDuring's "point". :-) It is useful to distinguish the various meanings of N,S,E, and W. They can be geographical, magnetic, or compass points(for instance). So, although your argument is thought provokingly good, the term compass point is still needed, as there are situations where the compass has not been mentioned. However, I am behind you all the way if we are talking about point of the compass -- Algrif 18:00, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

• delete or redirect (it's not a set phrase in the way that compass point is). Ƿidsiþ 12:49, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

redirect or keep. Point does mean 'a direction,' as in a 'point of sail,' but it's usage appears to be extremely rare in English outside of idiomatic usages. Yartrebo 02:20, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Ɂ

Not an IPA letter, but used in some Canadian languages. There's already an article at the correct title ʔ. -- Prince Kassad 19:26, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

My list calls this a "capital letter glottal stop". If it is used in some languages, it certainly should be kept and explained. Or at the very least, redirect it to ʔ. —Stephen 17:14, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

It's discussed at w:Glottal stop (letter), which confirms it is a valid glyph. Other IPA letter with capital variant are ɛ (Ɛ, Latin epsilon), ɑ (Ɑ, Latin alpha) and ə (Ə or Ǝ, the schwa). Circeus

August 2008

having eaten one's fill

Deleted per discussion on RFD s.v. "eat one's fill".—msh210℠ 20:35, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

eat one's fill

SoP, even after being put in lemma form. DCDuring TALK 15:26, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Delete. -- Algrif 17:00, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Idiomatic. Move to eat one's fill. —Stephen 15:06, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

If the following is a sense of "fill", how is this an idiom?

fill: 1. A sufficient or more than sufficient amount.

Don't feed him anymore, he's had his fill.

There may be some unstated criterion that we should have for idioms, but I don't get what exisying criterion would include this term. DCDuring TALK 15:53, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I think it’s unusual and idiomatic. There are a number of expressions where you can use "one’s fill" this way, but not many. To translate it into another language, you really need to look up the complete term. If you translate eat + one’s + fill into any language that I know, you’ll get nonsense. German would be sich satt essen or abfressen. Russian would be наедаться (where на- gives the sense of satiety). In Portuguese, I’d say comer o que quiser. In Spanish, I think I’d say comer bien or hartarse. In French, it would be manger tout son content. The only one that comes close to the same construction as the English is the German [sich satt essen]] (to eat oneself sated), but translating the individual English words as though they were SoP will always give a bad result. —Stephen 18:02, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Maybe we need to formalize a translation-target criterion in some way and vote it in. SGB certainly brings it up often enough ;-)) Multiple languages from a single family or uber-family or at least 2 uber-families or 3 families ? DCDuring TALK 19:58, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Delete whatever form.—msh210℠ 23:55, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

How do I, as a non-native speaker, know that this "SOP" doesn't refer to sense 2 at fill, namely An amount that fills a container, and the sentence Don't feed him anymore, he's had his fill. doesn't mean ...he ate a whole bowl and has no right to more? I ask because this was a problem which had actually troubled me some years ago (as far as I can recall in connection with some Walter Scott novel). --Duncan MacCall 08:00, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

"He's had his fill" could refer to a person's container rather than the person. It would depend on context. For example, a supervisor at a feeding line might say "he's had his fill" to a line employee about to put an extra scoop of mashed potatoes on someone's plate. DCDuring TALK 10:39, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

I count three deletes and a keep, so I'm deleting.—msh210℠ 20:34, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

be bound to

bound to

Both of these seem to be direct consequences of the adjective senses of bound#Etymology 1 and possibly misconstructions. Should they be redirects to the section of bound? DCDuring TALK 18:31, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

They need entries, as previously discussed (somewhere), because of the use as an alternative to must in the sense of logical conclusion, where there could be ambiguity with must meaning obligation. The phrase is always in a form of be + bound + to followed by the bare infinitive. It forms part of the modal series. -- Algrif 16:55, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

What I viscerally dislike is the incorporation of what I have learned is a part of the infinitive ("to") into this entry. I find it OK to occasionally split an infinitive in usage, but not to so do in a headword. To me, this is a bit different from phrasal verbs because the prepositions are not part of a PoS as to is part of the infinitive. Without the "to", neither entry would have value, unless we start adding entries for passives (if that is a valid way of interpreting "be bound").

I have an old idioms book that shows "bound to" and "be bound to" at "bound", but I vastly prefer the way Longman's DCE presents it at "bound" with context-like notation indicating the required infinitive, something like what we now have at bound#Adjective. I can't see any reason not to have that at "bound", whatever is decided about these entries. If we help 2 users per entry per year, I'm down with it. DCDuring TALK 17:33, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't rely too much on gut reactions. Modal verbs, which is what we are considering here, are normally followed by the bare infinitive. (Example at the start of this paragraph.) So, just as ought to = should and both are followed by the bare infinitive, this is a case of be bound to = must also followed by a bare infinitive. A typical modal structure. The example given at bound Adjective is particularly good one to demonstrate why we need to use be bound to (unique sense; logical conclusion) to avoid the confusion with must (sense; obligation)

I suspect my gut reaction reflects the response of many users. I offer my gut in lieu of any other evidence about user response. My gut is not much cluttered with linguistic knowledge, therefore more qualified in its ignorance to speak for our purported anon user (if that is our target user). ;-) DCDuring TALK 12:56, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

• They are bound to come into conflict eventually. cf: They must come into conflict eventually.
  I have no problem with leaving the entry at bound Adjective, but to eliminate be bound to is to eliminate the most probable search entry, and leave a verb usage of bound hidden away as an adjective, where it is difficult to find, even when you know it is there.
  To summarise; 1) bound is not a modal verb and as a verb it does not mean must. 2) Bound to is not a modal form, it means tied up with rope to a chair, or stuck to something with glue, and does not necessarily mean must (logical conclusion). But the entry is as it is as the result of a previous discussion about this. I disagree with the result, but that's life on the Wikt! The only way to show bound as meaning logical conclusion, equivalent to a disambiguation of must is the entry be bound to. I refer you to any decent grammar book you care to chose on this one. -- Algrif 12:26, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

• I don't think users can be assumed to convert to lemma form for search. Usage examples including the forms of "[be] bound to" would very substantially address the need for users to find the correct entry for "bound" (or the other entries - at least if our search worked a little better. What about "seemed bound to" and its synonyms? I offered Collins DCE's approach precisely because they are a dictionary (albeit a grammatically sophisticated one) rather than a reference grammar book. I think that we need to find ways of presenting sophisticated ideas that represent the best understanding of language and present it so that it is useful for the target user. These entries seemed to me to be a waste. I suppose they might help someone, but they led to neglect of providing useful information at bound. We may just need to have multiple locations for the information and hope that search will find one of them for a user. DCDuring TALK 12:56, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

  PS, I am unable to locate the previous discussion of this. DCDuring TALK 13:00, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Can't find it either, even though I participated. It was probably a sub discussion. I'll try to find it for you later. I think the entry be bound to should stay, and is useful, for all the reasons I've mentioned. I do not agree that looking up bound is going to get anyone anywhere near the correct meaning of the phrase be bound to = logical conclusion, unless there is is a link from one to the other, of course. And I must question the idea that these entries are "a waste". A waste of what? On that basis, we can have a spree with be able to, have to, ought to, going to, etc. That aside, I am working (using the term very loosely ;-)) on a Modal appendix. The term will be there also, along with some other similar phrases that are used modally. I believe modals are such an important part of English. Native speakers take them for granted, forgetting that they express so much more than just the surface. -- Algrif 14:05, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

"Waste" was my initial reaction. I appreciate the points made, including Widsith's below. I will work to make sure that the component words also contain clues about the phrasal senses, but will be much more selective in my challenges for less usual, long-standing phrasal usages like this. I wouldn't have done so if there were a discussion or a link to a discussion on the entry talk page. Our search engine doesn't even support our needs, let alone our users.

Also, would it make sense to include an explicit etymology section in such entries pointing to the best section of the main component words' entries? I find the logic of language evolution more economical of thought and memory than grammar rules. DCDuring TALK 14:36, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

• The fact that it includes "part of the infinitive" is just a reflection of the way it is used, ie often with the following verb only implied. Consider "Do you think she'll come tonight?" "Oh yes, she's bound to." Ƿidsiþ 14:13, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

• But consider also "She's bound". The usage, whether you care to think of it as "bound" + "to infinitive", or "bound to" + "bare infinitive" is a modal use of the word which is only apparent in that exact structure. It is much clearer if the term "bound to" is considered as what it is, a modal, and as such, is followed by the bare infinitive. Grammar is "invented after the fact" in an attempt to put order to something that is basically disordered. So this is just the kind of rule that has less exceptions if you consider the phrase + bare infinitive to be a typically modal construction. And from experience working with learners of English, the expectation is just this. Learners check out phrases such as ought to rather than ought. going to rather than going. And so on. -- Algrif 15:04, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

• My view is that we should delete the content at bound to but keep the page and refer people to the appropriate section of bound. To me it seems weird to have "bound to" listed as an "adjective". What about "delighted to", "happy to", "obliged to" etc.? Are these all adjectives? Where does it end? Matt 20:31, 12 August 2008 (UTC).

Which is why, in the end, the preferred entry is be bound to, because it is a verbal entry representing a modal verb usage. This entry has nothing in common with the standard "adjective + to inf", because of it's modal sense. -- Algrif 12:41, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I definitely see where you're coming from, but since "seem|seems|seeming|seemed bound to", "look|looks|looking|looked bound to", etc. are so well attested, I don't think that's ideal. (Not the end of the world — we could create redirects to [[be bound to]], with appropriate usage notes — but not ideal.) —Ruakh_TALK 15:44, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I forget the correct term for these state verbs that can substitute be. Later edit. linking verbs. But that argument applies to nearly all the be + something entries. seems (etc) able to, seem (etc) as cool as a cucumber, and so on. I have often wondered what, if anything, could be done about that. -- Algrif 16:28, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Having an entry for verbal "be bound to" makes more sense to me than calling "bound to" an adjective. I confess I didn't notice that "be bound to" was also listed as a part of this deletion request. But is there a fundamental difference between "be bound to" and "be delighted to", "be obliged to" etc.? Or should there (ideally) be separate entries for all these? Matt 20:57, 14 August 2008 (UTC)~.

There is a fundamental difference, yes. I am delighted to attend is a simple SoP statement. I am bound to attend does NOT mean that I have been tied up before attending, nor does it mean that I have made any promise, or any of the other meanings of bound. It means that MY OPINION is that IT IS LOGICAL that I will not miss the function. In other words, it is a modal verb in effect (similar to must), and as such, is not "adjective + to infinitive" and therefore is not SoP. -- ALGRIF talk 09:51, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, indeed, it doesn't mean "tied up"! But I don't have any problem parsing "I am bound to..." with "bound" as an adjective meaning something similar to "sure" (a seemingly reasonable extension of its literal meaning). In fact, both Collins and M-W online dictionaries explain the "bound to" usage under adjective "bound". I agree, though, that there doesn't seem to be any other way to use "bound" with exactly this adjectival meaning. Matt 20:43, 17 August 2008 (UTC).

Personally speaking, I don't even think that this adjectival definition is valid. One day (not now) I will argue the case more forcefully. For the moment, just worth noting that "a bound noun" and "this noun is bound" never have the sense under discussion. The same goes for "a bound to noun" and "this noun is bound to" (where the "to" becomes a preposition, doesn't it?, if we are talking about entry "bound to"). It would be interesting to compare how these other dictionaries deal with be able to, by the way. -- ALGRIF talk 11:07, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

mozy

Just a misspelling of mosey. A OneLook search comes up with no hits for this sense. I don't think it even qualifies as nonstandard. -- WikiPedant 05:27, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Delete. google books:"mozy|mozying|mozies|mozied along" gets only 3 hits, compared to 665 for google books:"mosey|moseying|moseys|moseyed along". —Ruakh_TALK 17:56, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Delete - we can not afford wasting resources for misspellings made by uneducated people. And the misspelling of a slang word goes forsooth too far. Bogorm 22:38, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Keep. Is it in use? Yes. Is it citable? Yes (see Ruakh's link above). Is it rare? Yes. But 574 Google web hits, ~ 100 blog hits, and ~ 15 group hits show me that it certainly exists. sewnmouthsecret 20:11, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

We don't include rare misspellings. —Ruakh_TALK 23:14, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

It's not that I want or don't want to keep this term; I just want things to make sense logically. Per CFI, this term is OK to keep as long as it is cited. There is nothing that states we do not include rare misspellings. A term should be included if it's likely that someone would run across it and want to know what it means. People may run across it. It is attested and used in permanently recorded media.

Furthermore, when searching b.g.c. for "mozy", it yields 688 hits.

The first 6 pages of hits alone allow one to expand to 5 different adjective senses on top of the verb sense (which I shall add).

Point is, one can't pick and choose which words stay or go because one feels a word is a misspelling, especially when CFI says nothing about it. sewnmouthsecret 15:57, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

There are four spellings: mosey, mozey, mosy, mozy, approximately in that order of frequency on bgc. We should be relieved that mosie and mozie aren't also in use in bgc material. "Mozy" might (barely) be attestable basede on bgc hits, but most hits are not for the verb or anything else that we are likely to feel compelled to have an entry for. "Mosy" is sometimes a last name or a nickname or a scanno. If we don't have explicit standards for what makes something a misspelling or an alternative spelling, the four forms would seem to have equal standing under our policies. "Mosey" is the only one of these that is in the OneLook dictionaries, suggesting that other dictionaries can find a rationale for excluding such forms. At least one "z" form would be good inclusion, because a user might well type "moz" in searching for the word as heard in a movie or speech. "moz" would yield mozey if we troubled to enter that more attestable form. DCDuring TALK 16:39, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Our standards are CFI, which don't spell out how to handle rare spellings that may or may not be misspellings. As far as a word's standing, that's why we have tags such as {{rare}} and {{archaic}}, among others. As is often stated, we are not other dictionaries. We can include anything that meets our criteria, which, per CFI, this term does. sewnmouthsecret 17:06, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm confused. Your comments seem to be at variance with Wiktionary:Criteria for inclusion#Misspellings, common misspellings and variant spellings. —Ruakh_TALK 18:39, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I think these criteria are fine as far as they go (not far, IMHO). It would be helpful if we had explicit criteria for when something was definitely an alternative spelling or definitely a common misspelling (or even just definitely common or definitely a misspelling). We could still leave a big gray area for what is not so definite. DCDuring TALK 19:37, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Some of the adjectival senses just added to the entry by Sewnmouthsecret seem OK albeit obscure, although I wish s/he had provided a supporting quotation for each. But to suggest that this is a valid alternative spelling of the verb mosey is not credible for me and I still think that we should delete the verb sense. (Pet peeve: Except for slang bordering on nonstandard and words of very recent vintage, I think that it is inappropriate to rely solely or even heavily on g.b.c. hits or blogs. We should rely on writers and sources which are credible exemplars of English usage, which is why I'm biased toward recognized literary sources, academic journals, and prominent news outlets with good standards like Time magazine or the NYT.) -- WikiPedant 21:42, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

My issue here is this: it seems to me that this is a valid alt spelling of mosey. To say it is not credible for you is to say your opinion is to delete it. I would support deleting it if there was no evidence of use, but there is, no matter how obscure. Opinion should not dictate keeping or deleting a term. To be biased towards any given publication is an unnecessary bias, as new terms, alternate meanings, etc. show up in less recognized sources and are often the bastions of language transformation. I will add supporting quotations for all adjective senses, and I will add quotations for the verb sense as well, as the quotations were already linked to above. sewnmouthsecret 20:38, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

The citations Sewnmouthsecret has added for the verb are probably adequate to justify retaining that sense, for now. But I wonder whether this rather thin set of citations may be the result of sporadic misspellings or typesetting errors by the authors or printers. (Such things do happen, and they do not really constitute legitimate alt spellings.) I'd particularly like to get my hands on a couple editions of that Zane Grey novel to see if they all really say "mozy". -- WikiPedant 01:21, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

hasn't one

Over at WT:RFC#hastn't one, user:86.134.55.120 has suggested this be deleted. I have no strong opinion either way, but I've brought it here anyway. Thryduulf 00:07, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Eek, tag questions! While these are limited in number (they are all of the form auxiliary verb + ["not"|"n't" +] pronoun) there are still a huge number of these, and I'm not convinced they belong in Wiktionary. — Paul G 11:36, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Idiomatic, keep. Useful and interesting once it gets cleaned up. —Stephen 01:19, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

In what way is this idiomatic? It is a simple negative question, tagged onto a statement, asking for someones personal opinion. In other words, a simple question. We might as well put ¿O no? as an idiom in Spanish, mightn't we? (He asked, using a tag question) -- Algrif 12:37, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

If it were not idiomatic, then you should be able to translate it directly into other languages, such as Spanish "¿no ha uno?". And it’s use is not so simple for someone learning English as a second language. I believe the article mentions this in regard to "doesn’t one". —Stephen 15:22, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Somewhere round about lesson 9, Eng L2 learners are taught tag questions. They are questions tagged on to a statement. To allow this entry means that all the following are also OK. am I , aren't I , are you , aren't you , is he , isn't he, are we , aren't we, are they , aren't they , followed by all the positive and negative combinations with do , have , can , could , shall , should , ought , will , would , may , might , must , need , dare. This is a grammar entry, isn't it?. Make an appendix by all means. It would be a good idea, wouldn't it? But we don't really need all those entries, do we? And anyway they should be followed by a question mark, shouldn't they? -- ALGRIF talk 17:52, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

goating

"Present participle of 'goat'", says the page, but there is no verb listed at goat.

However, "goating" is a noun (a participial noun, to be precise) according to this page. It's not listed in FOLDOC, where you might expect to find it, and [http::/onelook.com onelook] only lists the entry in Witkionary. Anyone have any independent citations? — Paul G 11:33, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I believe that there are two senses to the verb to "goat": "to scapegoat" and "to allow goats to feed on". I'd be appreciative of a verification from the OED. I have seen lots of hits on b.g.c. for "goated" and "goating" but need to make sure that the apparent participles aren't really noun and adjective (which they may additionally be). DCDuring TALK 12:21, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I have cited a noun sense of goating. DCDuring TALK 12:58, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

The definitions can be improved. The sense of "goating" at the link above seems to relate to the "hazing", "roasting", "pranking" sense recorded in fraternity periodicals. DCDuring TALK 13:02, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

For the record, the OED (2nd ed., 1989) has no entry for "goating" nor does it list "goat" as a verb.

By the way, is it possible that the 1918 verb sense added at goat is a scanno for "go at"? "Goat" seems to fit, but is that correct? — Paul G 07:58, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

The OED's varied readers don't seem to have been reading enough boring technical literature and fraternity newletters. I found other quotations that have this verb sense. This one provided, I thought, more context that would reduce ambiguity. Perhaps I was wrong. DCDuring TALK 10:38, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Now there is a verb section s.v. goat, so this RFD seems irrelevant. Kept.—msh210℠ 20:32, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

servabo fidem

This is sum of parts in Latin, and seems to have been added principally because it is a motto used by a US military regiment. This does not strike me as being worthy of inclusion in a dictionary. --EncycloPetey 03:00, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

For someone who is not versed in Latin grammar, it would probably be very difficult to divine the meaning of servabo fidem from servabo and fidem. If we delete servabo fidem, then we need to put real definitions in servabo and fidem, not just a technical grammatical description and link to the lemma. —Stephen 19:58, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

How will adding such definitions help? The form servabo has mutliple meanings, just as the lemma form does. Drowning the entry for servabo with all the possible definitions will not make translation any clearer for someone not versed in Latin grammar. This information would be better included on Wikiquote or Wikipedia. --EncycloPetey 20:26, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

That is why it is better to keep servabo fidem. —Stephen 21:12, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

By your reasoning, we should have an entry for every sentence and phrase found in the corpus of Latin literature. Reductio ad absurdum --EncycloPetey 21:54, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Every common or important phrase. My reasoning does not envelope every sentence and phrase, it only includes those phrases that you think are SoP. SoP only works in a language that you know how to put together. servabo fidem is SoP for people who know Latin or at least know another language with similar grammar, but it is not SoP for most Americans. Therefore, if the only reason for deleting it is SoP, then keep it, because for most people it’s not. —Stephen 01:36, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

But that reasoning would argue for every sentence/phrase. In order to understand any of them, you might need to know some basic things about Latin. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 05:32, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

So you think that every common or important phrase includes not only e pluribus unum, but also "I prefer to add a little extra salt to my broccoli when my mother comes for a visit"? If that’s what you think, then you don’t understand what I’m saying. —Stephen 12:23, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

When you say, "For someone who is not versed in Latin grammar, it would probably be very difficult to divine the meaning of...", that applies to nearly every sentences or phrase. The bit about only important phrases and sentences may have merit. There will certainly be people who want to know what e pluribus unum means without having to figure out Latin grammar. But, I am hesitant to accept such a thing, as I don't think a clear boundary can be set. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 20:01, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Delete. SOP. The meaning seems fairly discernible from the parts. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 21:48, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Keep. Coming in to this discussion not knowing what the phrase meant, I first looked up servabo and then fidem. Although the basic idea comes across fine, someone wanting to know what it meant would not be able to get an actual translation without including the phrase. sewnmouthsecret 19:56, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

So, would that mean you'd want to have entry for Cuius ducit filiam? --EncycloPetey 02:27, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, after looking up cuius, ducit, and filiam, I gather it means who/what/which X daughter, X being ducit. So, for right now, I would say include it. sewnmouthsecret 13:58, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Keep. I don't know how I feel about the "common or important phrase" criterion, and I don't know how common or important this really is (~150 b.g.c. hits); so, I'm erring on the side of keep. —Ruakh_TALK 02:15, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

This phrase isn't idiomatic in the slightest. It's (deprecated template usage) servabo + (deprecated template usage) faith. It's no more idiomatic than comedes pavonem. --EncycloPetey 02:34, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

When I look up servabo, it has watch over, maintain, protect, keep, guard, save, preserve, and store for meanings. When I look up fidem, it has faith, belief, reliance, confidence, and trust. So, if I were looking up the phrase word-by-word, I could conjecture that it could mean I maintain confidence, or I watch over trust, or I guard confidence. That, to me, is idiomatic. sewnmouthsecret 13:58, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I caught that, thanks. :-)   —Ruakh_TALK 02:36, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

...and you noticed that the b.g.c. hits were all of the form "the motto of X is..." and not one of the b.g.c. hits I saw was in a Latin context? They were all books in English, and the vast majority then immediately told the translation. Such citations are usually deemed not to meet the requirements of CFI. --EncycloPetey 02:53, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

The fact that they're used in an English context is a major reason I didn't vote delete. Certainly a phrase found only in Latin texts will only be understood by people who understand Latin grammar; but this has been the motto of various groups and persons in English-speaking countries, and contrary to your experience, I found many examples on b.g.c. that used/mentioned the phrase without providing translation. Relevant specialized dictionaries (dictionaries of mottoes, and dictionaries of classical quotations) do include the phrase, and while I realize that their considerations are in one regard different from ours (since they don't have entries for the constituents), they're also in one regard the same (since they're directed at English-speaking readers who would have difficulty assembling the constituents anyway). —Ruakh_TALK 10:49, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

as for reductio ad absurdum, see also decus et tutamen nemo me impune lacessit and wth all sorts of other mottos like non inultus premor and w:Category:State mottos of the United States & fluctuat nec mergitur & labor omnia vincit & semper fidelis & non pro nobis laboramus & de oppresso liber & so on and so on and so on... 128.252.121.54 18:05, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

jest at

Most unlike me to challenge a possible phrasal verb. But I think this is in fact SoP. -- ALGRIF talk 11:34, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Policing the category definitely increases its legitimacy! DCDuring TALK 12:09, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Delete; I agree that this does not seem to be a phrasal verb. --EncycloPetey 18:51, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I guess then you can also talk about scoff at, sneer at and take the mickey out of right away, they have been created in the same run by User:130.226.70.192 / User:All_you_need_is_love. Mutante 18:59, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Delete jest at, scoff at, and sneer at, but hard-redirect take the mickey out of to take the mickey as a likely search term.—msh210℠ 20:28, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Delete all. SemperBlotto 07:29, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

air sport

"any recreational activity performed in the atmosphere" Appears in no OneLook reference word except Wiktionary and Wikipedia. Seems SoP to me unless there is another definition. DCDuring TALK 23:56, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

This needs redefinition, not deletion. All terrestrial sports are performed "in the atmosphere". Basketball is not an "air sport" even though players' bodies may lose contact with the ground. Shooting ducks is not an "air sport" even though the bullet may hit the duck in the air. To my understanding, air sports are those that involve some means of human-powered flight, either as the sport in itself (stunt flying, balloon racing) or as a platform from which to perform (skyboarding or skysurfing, group skydiving). bd2412 T 01:41, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Your understanding would fit with the WP stub article, but also with what one might expect the words to mean, just as we don;t think of an airplane as merely a plane (surface) in the air. Give it your best shot. That other dictionaries don't have makes it more important that we do a good job. It might be a valid category, but I wonder whether it is often used and whether anyone wouldn't instantly guess the meaning. DCDuring TALK 03:33, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Consider, for example, someone who doesn't speak English. Might be easy for you to guess, but for everyone? I'll work on it - at some point. bd2412 T 03:42, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, we do have watersport (I don't know about defn. 2. But since SemperB put it there, I assume it is correct.) -- ALGRIF talk 10:56, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't see a second definition. Single words (former compounds that are spelled solid, like "watersport") are thereby not subject to challenge as SoP. I believe that compelling an English learner to construct the possible meaning of such a collocation is reasonable. It is misleading to treat it as if this were a true idiom. It is the kind of term that is most useful for someone who runs a business serving those who enjoy these activities, such as the apparent spammer w:Airways Airsports. Perhaps it would be useful to put this through RfV to get the cites that would support a meaning, which could then be assessed as to whether it was SoP or not. DCDuring TALK 11:59, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Re: your last sentence: Unfortunately, this never happens. Citing is a fair bit of effort, and editors aren't always motivated to do it in the best of cases, let alone cases of the form, "Let's see if we can get someone to add three quotations for this. Once we've done that, we can decide whether to delete those quotations. Afterward, we can come up with other ways to waste editors' time." :-P   —Ruakh_TALK 13:25, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

easy target

Sum of parts, no? Teh Rote 21:07, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Not quite. It is not the target itself that is easy, but rather that the target is easy to hit, and it's not always a literal shooting at the target. This seems worth keeping along with easy mark and sitting duck. --EncycloPetey 21:13, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Our current definition says "easy to be made fun of", which is not the only sense of "easy target"; bgc shows, in its first twenty hits, maybe one or two in that sense. (Note that "an easy target for barbs" in a quotation is not a citations for the sense we have: if "for barbs" is added, then "an easy target" alone doesn't mean "easy to be made fun of".) I think we should delete as SoP the sense EP seems to be referring to above ("an easily hit target"). I also think we should delete as SoP the sense we have, as the "for barbs" part is implied by context rather than being part of the meaning of "easy target".—msh210℠ 21:27, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I deleted it a bit fast. I have now added it again, but with my own definition. Feel free to improve. SemperBlotto 21:32, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

short cut

rfd-sense: A very short rendition, or snippets, of a film or play, as used in a coming attraction or promotional video.

IOW, (deprecated template usage) short + (deprecated template usage) cut. DCDuring TALK 10:34, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Delete.—msh210℠ 20:21, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Category:Sinhala language

There are 2 separately named categories for this language- Category:Sinhala language and Category:Sinhalese language. The first has no content, so it should be deleted to avoid confusion, or move everything into the other category. Nadando 21:38, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Delete --EncycloPetey 21:39, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Keep, and rather delete Category:Sinhalese language or change {{sin}} to "Sinhalese." I'm undecided as to which is better. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 21:27, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

This language has a 2-letter ISO code of si, for which we have the template {{si}}. The templates should certainly match, but currently they do not. Template {{si}} says "Sinhalese" while {{sin}} says "Sinhala". --EncycloPetey 22:34, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

damakzevki

Definition poor. Seems like spam for a Turkish domain. DCDuring TALK 21:12, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

clocked out DCDuring TALK 18:25, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

arcuate-decurrent

Describes mushroom gills that are in the shape of an arc (arcuate) and run down the stem (decurrent). Couldn't be much more SoP, IMO, but some seem to take that as a dare. DCDuring TALK 00:13, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

clocked out DCDuring TALK 18:25, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

areolate-cracked

Having a pattern of block-like areas areolate similar to cracked dried mud. cracked SoP DCDuring TALK 00:21, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

clocked out DCDuring TALK 18:27, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

veepa

Nothing of note in BGC. nothing of note in BC corpus, nothing in groups...Where did this come from? - [The]DaveRoss 17:12, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Delete. It must come from veep + -a. Where the "humor" comes from I don't know. Perhaps some kind of pun. There are Web posters by that name, included someone detained during the Republican convention in New York. In Telegu it is a spelling of a word referring to the w:Neem tree. It also seems to have been used in the 19th century to refer to a genus of stinging insects. IOW, who knows? DCDuring TALK 19:44, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Deleted with an RFV reason.—msh210℠ 20:19, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

-manship

No. There is no such suffix. The combining forms listed here are from ...man + ship, not from ... + manship. — Paul G 08:32, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

By what criteria does one evaluate the "existence" or, more importantly, includability in Wiktionary of a suffix? DCDuring TALK 10:59, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Good question. Do we have criteria for this? The question is also begged by entries such as workmanship or craftsmanship. Are they derived from + -man + -ship or from + -manship? A craftswoman, or craftsperson displays good craftsmanship. But this does not give rise to craftswomanship or craftspersonship. -- ALGRIF talk 12:25, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

The words evolved from adding "-ship" to (deprecated template usage) craftsman etc. The word appeared and stabilized before there was a regular word (deprecated template usage) craftswoman in English. I think a good avenue for exploring this is the word (deprecated template usage) sportsmanship, since the hypothetical root (deprecated template usage) sportsman is not a common English word. --EncycloPetey 23:42, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually, both (deprecated template usage) craftswomanship and (deprecated template usage) craftspersonship do exist. Also, (deprecated template usage) sportsman is, in fact, nearly four times more common than (deprecated template usage) sportsmanship (also consider (deprecated template usage) (un)(deprecated template usage) sportsmanly &c.). I believe an essential criterion for the inclusion of an affix ought to be (by analogy with the “idiomaticity” criterion that we have for words) that its meaning cannot be reduced — in a sum-of-its-parts fashion — to its constituent affixes; in the case of (deprecated template usage) -manship, unless it can be shown that there exist at least three words ending in (deprecated template usage) -manship whose (deprecated template usage) -man æquivalents do not exist, then I believe it should be deleted. † ﴾^(u):Raifʻhār ^(t):Doremítzwr﴿ 23:14, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

• Easily done: gamesman, one-upman, brinkman (but gamesmanship, one-upmanship, brinkmanship). Keep. Cheers! bd2412 T 00:27, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

• gamesman;
• one-upman (though this is probably by back-formation); and,
• Google Books, unfortunately, refuses to recognise (deprecated template usage) brinkman as anything other than a surname; “a brinkman” yields results chiefly for people named “A. Brinkman” and technical terms named after people bearing that surname (e.g., a (deprecated template usage) Brinkman medium); the world book dictionary lists it, but the results page is blank; nevertheless:

  «Threatening to sue unless something is repaired is a brinkman’s move, as lawsuits hurt everyone involved — except the lawyers. On the seller’s part, the willingness to risk “no sale” can be a brinkman’s move.» — [24];

  «His record shows he is a brinkman. I think he should clearly understand now he is at the brink and he must now seek a settlement.» — [25]; and,

  «But this doesn’t make Galileo a martyr, only a brinkman. When it came to actually dying for ideas, Galileo wasn’t having any.» — [26].

• † ﴾^(u):Raifʻhār ^(t):Doremítzwr﴿ 00:54, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

• The recency of your hits indicates a back-formation, which would necessitate "-manship" having existed before brinkman was derived from brinkmanship. bd2412 T 03:40, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

• Also, not easy to get a citation for a freestanding suffix, but:
  • 1996, Steven H. Gale, Encyclopedia of British Humorists: Geoffrey Chaucer to John Cleese, p. 874:

    Summary Stephen Potter is best known for his gamesmanship theory, a cunning, psychological tactic used to best a competitor, on or off the field. His basic "-manship" principle was later incorporate to include many everyday events.

• And, there is no "exams-man", but :
  • 2004, Jonathan Silverman, Suzanne M. Kurtz, Juliet Draper, Skills for Communicating with Patients, p. 102:

    This exams-manship history is decidedly different from the focused history that we are talking about in this chapter...

• Cheers again! bd2412 T 00:47, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

(deprecated template usage) Examsmanship is valid, considering [27], [28], and [29]. The citation for (deprecated template usage) -manship alone is rather interesting; it should be added to the entry. † ﴾^(u):Raifʻhār ^(t):Doremítzwr﴿ 01:05, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Keep per Algrif and BD2412. All of BD2412's (deprecated template usage) -shipless examples do seem to meet the CFI, but they're certainly far less common than their (deprecated template usage) -shipped counterparts, and IMHO seem to be backformations. google books:"her chairmanship" makes google books:"her chairship|chairwomanship|chairpersonship" look like Taíno, even though google books:"she was chairman" is not far ahead of google books:"she was chair|chairwoman|chairperson". Also, it seems to be a fixed expression, so to speak: (deprecated template usage) -manhood, (deprecated template usage) -manity, and (deprecated template usage) -manness are all almost nonexistent. —Ruakh_TALK 00:47, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Regarding this last point of yours: That doesn’t prove that (deprecated template usage) -manship is one suffix. Due to the esoteric (descriptive) rules of English morphology, certain morphemes are simply naturally prædisposed to be affixed by this or that affix; for example, the (deprecated template usage) en- -en words, as far as I know, form nouns exclusively by the suffixation of (deprecated template usage) -ment, whereas the (deprecated template usage) -less words are almost always suffixed with (deprecated template usage) -ness when nominalised — this doesn’t mean that (deprecated template usage) en- -enment* and (deprecated template usage) -lessness* are English affixes. † ﴾^(u):Raifʻhār ^(t):Doremítzwr﴿ 02:46, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

That's true, but it's an additional reason to keep the entry, just as we keep fixed series of words. (I won't argue that all such fixed sets of suffixes should be included — for one thing, they're not constituents — but taken together with the other arguments, I think it makes a stronger case. Or maybe not.) —Ruakh_TALK 03:07, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

• One more note, the 2002 World Book Dictionary entries on brinkmanship and conmanship present the respective etymologies of the words as "brink + -manship" and "con + -manship". Although this is a citation to a dictionary, it is not to the dictionary's definition of the word, but to the use of -manship as a suffix. bd2412 T 00:53, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

  “(deprecated template usage) Brink + (deprecated template usage) -manship” I can believe, but I reckon they’re wrong with (deprecated template usage) conmanship (which is far more likely to be “(deprecated template usage) conman + (deprecated template usage) -ship”). I get your point though; however, it is not absurd to argue that they’re wrong in according suffixship (  ;-) ) to (deprecated template usage) -manship. † ﴾^(u):Raifʻhār ^(t):Doremítzwr﴿ 01:16, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

  But wouldn't that be prescriptivism on our part, to decide that a use in print is 'wrong'? Also, I have found another such use in the nifty Rice University Neologisms Database:

  • Quippmanship n.
    The ability to produce a catchy soundbyte, witty remark, or clever turn of phrase. The art, skill, or ability to create a catchy soundbyte, witty remark, or clever turn of phrase. Formed by an unknown word formation process.
    [affixation; formed from 'quip' + 'manship']
    "So far most of our intelligentsia have been more eager to explain what this war is not than what it is. Yet the conflict is not a hash-it-out in the faculty lounge, nor a brainstorm over a headline in the newsroom, nor flashy quippmanship in a political d" -From a NationalReviewOnline editorial by Victor Davis Hanson, on Fri Nov 7, 2003.

  Cheers! bd2412 T 16:25, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Here’s the deal: I don’t personally object to this entry’s existence. Nevertheless, I believe the principle I outlined above is a good one; what do you all say? As for the entry, I think (deprecated template usage) examsmanship and the direct use count as two of the requisite three citations, so I’m sure we can find another (deprecated template usage) -manship word that lacks a (deprecated template usage) -man æquivalent; perhaps in one of these three lists… † ﴾^(u):Raifʻhār ^(t):Doremítzwr﴿ 01:22, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

• I think the fact that another dictionary uses it as a word-forming suffix should at least count for a citation. bd2412 T 01:41, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

  I disagree (although I’d be open to debate on that, if it is explained to me their reasoning for specifying those etymologies); we don’t consider as citations the fact that a word is listed as a headword in a dictionary. Neither do I think that appearance in an etymology counts as a “use”. † ﴾^(u):Raifʻhār ^(t):Doremítzwr﴿ 01:50, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

  It is exceedingly difficult to find uses of suffixes in the wild. How would you prove that -ist or -ally exist? We don't accept existence as a headword in a dictionary as proof of existence, but the writers of a dictionary would be more, not less qualified in using a word in its natural form, and not as a definition. bd2412 T 03:47, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

  First of all, whoever wrote that entry isn't actually using the suffix, only mentioning it; it's equivalent to the full sentence, “(deprecated template usage) Quippmanship^[sic] is formed via affixation from (deprecated template usage) quip and (deprecated template usage) manship”. Further, it's not a durably archived word list. So it might be usable as a reference, but not as a quotation. (Not that we need quotations for affixes, anyway, provided we have quotations for the words they form.) Secondly, looking through that page, nothing about it suggests that all of its writers are particularly knowledgeable about these things; for example, one of them describes (deprecated template usage) Quick Outtie as a blend of (deprecated template usage) quick and (deprecated template usage) outtie, and another describes (deprecated template usage) Queasishness as the result of zero-derivation because (s)he thinks that (deprecated template usage) -ness is a verb-forming suffix. It's like urban dictionary, where some contributors know a lot and others just act like they do. (On average I'd imagine they know more than the typical urban dictionarian, since they're submitting these entries for an English-slash-Linguistics class, but overall they're clearly not reliable.) Our CFI don't say enough about affixes; I think it's obvious that we can't expect them to be attested detached-ly, since that would be basically impossible (and counterproductive, since that would be a very unrepresentative set of quotes if we managed to find them). —Ruakh_TALK 14:58, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

  Actually my last comment was about the 2002 World Book Dictionary, which is an actual print dictionary. bd2412 T 17:57, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

  Oh, sorry, long discussion, got confused. So, it is reliable and durably archived — but still a mention. —Ruakh_TALK 19:00, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

  My fault, I threw two different thoughts up at the same time there. But the larger point is that it is virtually impossible to find use of a suffix alone in a format that is not simply a mention (try to find such a citation for "-istic", "-faction", or "-atory" ). And yet we include (and must include) suffixes. bd2412 T 19:47, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

  Yeah, I think we're basically in agreement. Your reasoning seems to be "it's not possible to find uses of such affixes, ergo our quotations for them will have to be mentions", whereas mine is "it's not possible to find uses of such affixes, ergo we can't require quotations for them", but that's a tiny difference, in the grand scheme of things. :-)   —Ruakh_TALK 20:08, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Keep. Whether it's its own indecomposable suffix or a combination of two suffices is academic, subjective and irrelevant. When two separate words are put together to form a new one, the new word warrants an entry; why should suffices be any different? Language Lover 03:09, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

graph cycle

SOP, and not even particularly common. ("Cycle of a graph" actually gets almost as many Google hits as "graph cycle".) —Ruakh_TALK 00:50, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

side wall

back wall

front wall

Someone had marked these for speedy deletion, obviously inappropriate. I'm listing them here, although I personally do not see why they should be deleted. __meco 12:49, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Definitions refer to squash. The phrases seem to be used also in handball, rooms, houses, properties, etc. So if we keep this we'd have to change our definition to "the back|front|side wall of anything" rather than "the back|front|side wall of a squash court" — and it's SoP. Delete.—msh210℠ 20:45, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Keep. On seeing them here, I instantly knew they were about racquetball. As it turns out, I "knew" wrongly (they were about squash), but I do think we should keep the squash/racquetball sense. We can put something like this:

1. The wall at the front of a room or building.
2. Specifically, the wall at the front of a squash or racquetball court, which the ball must hit after each stroke before it hits the floor.

—Ruakh_TALK 23:17, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Even if we keep this, I don't see that those are two senses. Why not combine them into

1. The wall comprising all or part of the front boundary of a room, building, squash or racquetball court, or other enclosed or partially enclosed area.

?—msh210℠ 19:25, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

They're not two senses, exactly, except that one is a term of art used with a precise and well-defined sense that's hyponym-ish to the other. It's like how at [[set]] we include the math sense, even though that's just a special case of the more general sense. —Ruakh_TALK 22:34, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I guess so. (See also the two senses of free: "Unconstrained" and "(mathematics) Unconstrained".  :-) ) Weak keep.—msh210℠ 22:07, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

be sold a pig in a poke

This is entered as a Proverb. I thought a proverb had to be a full sentence. On any other basis it seems SoP. We have an entry for pig in a poke. And it needs cleanup. DCDuring TALK 20:12, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Redirect to [[pig in a poke]]. —Ruakh_TALK 23:14, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Redirect form-of-a-phrase per Ruakh.—msh210℠ 19:22, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Keep at sell a pig in a poke if the concealed value is necessarily lower than indicated rather than higher. DAVilla 05:41, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

It is not necessarily lower. It could be, for example, an unsorted grab bag of items. It is not necessarily a "lemon" with concealed defects. It is just something that must be committed to sight unseen. DCDuring TALK 11:24, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Kept as redirect.—msh210℠ 20:14, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

疯狂英语

'Crazy English', the brand name of an English teaching method. I can't see a good reason to include this, as it has not developed any wider usage beyond being a brand name. Pistachio 16:07, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

hobo

Not a "real" adjective. No comparative or predicative use, AFAICT so far. DCDuring TALK 19:44, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Attributive use of noun, still. DCDuring TALK 01:47, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Move to RFV or delete. —Ruakh_TALK 02:03, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

$x$-American entries and $x$-born entries (ex: Sicilian-American, American-born Chinese)

"SoP" entries. Sets a bad precedent for thousands of similar entries (ex. Korean American, Cuban American, Mexican American, and so on). --TBC 22:22, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

keep Submit for RfV just like anything else. There are usually important as preferred alternatives to usually non-SoP pejoratives. Usage notes alone on each subject would warrant their inclusion. I would suggest that we should have at least one attestable non-pejorative demonym (?) for every ethnic grouping for which we have a pejorative demonym. DCDuring TALK 22:41, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Delete American-born Chinese and British-born Chinese; keep Sicilian-American and African-American. I'll see if I can dredge up the classic Nelson Mandela quote using "African-American" where an idiot American reporter "corrected" him about the term and Mandela explained that the black people of Africa were not actually African-American. African-American in particular is not sum of parts, since it is not used to refer to Americans of North African descent or to white Americans of South African descent. --EncycloPetey 00:42, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't think that these ought to be treated en masse, as EP's views suggest. There may be very different merits for each. I often find that the effort of citing the entries leads to an adjustment of the definitions that clarifies the usage of the terms. DCDuring TALK 01:08, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

That logic doesn't really apply to the [[[Sicilian-American]] entry, but I can see why the African-American entry isn't completely SoP. If it's necessary, I'm for separating this request, as per EP's comments.--TBC 02:42, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Separate these, per above. Otherwise, keep African-American per EP's Maghreb comment, and delete all the rest unless a good argument is made for any.—msh210℠ 22:04, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Sequoyah

We don't normally have entries for specific people, even if their name is the origin of other words (a link to their article on the 'pedia normally suffices). Is this one a special case? Thryduulf 20:13, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Keep, Otherwise we lose Hercules, Zeus, etc. We keep names, we simply do not keep collocations of names which specify certain people (e.g. Isaac Newton). Even if there is only one person who has a name, we still keep it. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 20:47, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Keep - It's also the origin of the words sequoia and Sequoia. If it is also a given name (used by other people/figures) then it has merit on those grounds as well. --EncycloPetey 23:26, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Famous Buildings and Monuments

• Angkor Wat
• Twin Towers 2
• Colossus of Rhodes
• Great Pyramid of Giza (was previously nominated before; result was no consensus)
• Golden Gate Bridge (was previously nominated before; result was keep)
• Hanging Gardens of Babylon
• Lighthouse of Alexandria
• Mausoleum of Maussollos
• Statue of Zeus at Olympia
• Temple of Artemis

CFI explicitly states that entries like "Empire State Building" should not be included. I don't see why this shouldn't apply to other famous buildings and monuments as well. The rationale that these entries should be kept because translations exist doesn't make much sense, since that would merit the inclusion of all famous buildings (including the Empire State Building). --TBC 23:54, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Keep some, but delete others. Should be an RFV matter, primarily. If any of the above are or have been used in an idiomatic comparative sense, those should be kept. bd2412 T 01:40, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

WP:BP would have been a better place for this actually, since this is more of a discussion on policy (CFI) and it's applications to specific entity entries. That's besides the point, though.--TBC 18:28, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Procedurally, Golden Gate Bridge does not belong here at all, having passed previously. I have put it in RfV, to determine whether there are citations that might support its inclusion. Perhaps Angkor Wat would get citations that made it includable. The others especially would appear to be candidates for {{only in|Wikipedia}} entries. Alternatively, move individually to RfV, wait a month (or two or three) for the absence of citations to become apparent, then they will be deleted. It seems extremely implausible that a four- or five-word building name would have quotations that would satisfy us. Even the three-word names seem unlikely. I could more easily see us keeping nicknames for these entities, like Golden Gate, Colossus, and Hanging Gardens or hanging gardens. DCDuring TALK 11:14, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

So what if it's been nominated before? Consensus changes, there's no policy that prevents an entry from being RfD'd again. Anyhow, deleting the full names and keeping nicknames sounds like a good idea.--TBC 18:19, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

The process and general civility are what keep a wiki from descending into chaos. The clear trend in our policy is toward selective inclusion of entries like this that have some attributive meaning, which is not going to be ascertained in the RfD process. We have separate processes because they involve different kinds of effort and process. Incidentally, if what you want is to change policy or discuss whether we are actually adhering to policies, that would belong in WT:BP (horses for courses). DCDuring TALK 18:57, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

WT:CFI mentions attributive use, which might be deemed to imply that such entries have to be usable as adjectives. I think the actual meaning of attributive is a bit broader, which possibly should be explicitly included in CFI. For example, Threadneedle Street refers to the Bank of England (which in turn refers to UK monetary authorities and policy) and Wall Street refers to the US financial markets. The White House, 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, Capitol Hill, the Pentagon, Number 10, Broadway, Fleet Street all seem to mean more than the places referred to, whether or not they are used as adjectives (and whether or not we have them as entries yet!). I would not expect most of the places in this RfD to meet the attributive test. It is possible that we would want to broaden CFI to include such well-known places, which might emerge from this discussion and the discussion of Golden Gate Bridge on RfV. DCDuring TALK 15:46, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

When there are specific translations into other languages for a given building or monument, definitely keep. —Stephen 12:36, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

The translation criterion is not part of any policy, AFAICT. Would the undocumented criterion mean that any SoP translation would warrant keeping the name of the great building or monument ("GBM")? I don't really see why we couldn't be gazeteer, albeit possibly a very selective one. We could provide a service even just by offering pronunciation of place names. DCDuring TALK 13:12, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Dictionaries are the principal tool of my professional trade, translation. Encyclopedias are used for information such as lengths, widths, dates, and histories. Dictionaries are primarily for definitions, capitalization, spelling, grammatical information such as tense and gender, and translations. Few paper dictionaries have definitions as well as translations and grammatical notes, but a book of definitions is a dictionary, and a book of translations is a dictionary. What I mean is, no one paper dictionary encompasses all that a dictionary can be, but some dictionaries are for definition (American Heritage, Random House), and some dictionaries are for translation (Vox, Larousse, Cassell, Langenscheidt). Among paper translation dictionaries, there are also different types, due to the physical limitations of a paper book: there are general dictionaries, medical dictionaries, transportation dictionaries, petroleum dictionaries, etc. General translation dictionaries try to include important proper names such as Empire State Building, Eiffel Tower, Slovakia, etc. Some translation dictionaries, mainly those that use a different script or exotic language, try to include other important names...e.g., Chinese has special specific translations for important names such as Richard Nixon and Jimmy Carter, and a good one lists them.

Since Wiktionary is not limited to definitions à la American Heritage, but includes translations and grammatical info as well, it should fulfill the duties not only of definition dictionaries but also of translation dictionaries, and translation dictionaries, depending on speciality, have entries for names such as Angkor Wat, Golden Gate Bridge, and George Washington.

This is why User:A-cai wrote the definition for the common term 成龙 (chéng lóng), which can only be translated by looking it up in a dictionary. Then someone who doesn’t use Wiktionary for translation purposes deleted the page. —Stephen 13:40, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

This discussion does not really belong here, it belongs at the BP. It would seem to need a vote to be a valid defense of any particular entry. A vote usually needs prior discussion if there is any potential for disagreement. I have already seen disagreement on this point without resolution. QED. If there is an ongoing discussion at BP, the possible deletion of these specific entries would be held in abeyance. There seem to be two issues which have a little overlap: 1. criteria for inclusion of places and fixed physical structures and 2 the translation criterion for inclusion of SoP and other entries. DCDuring TALK 15:25, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I believe there was some discussion of this on BP, but it didn't result in anything conclusive. That's the problem with BP; discussions last for a week or less before they're forgotten in favor of another issue. --TBC 03:52, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

If we have something interesting to say about the name (some etymology, regional variations, not-simply-transcribed translations), we should keep the entry (as we exist to describe words). If we have nothing to say about the word (though I doubt this is often the case if we are trying hard enough), replace it with {{only in|{{in wikipedia}}}} and let Wikipedia describe the entity that the word describes. Conrad.Irwin 23:55, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

September 2008

hold one's urine

From RFV:

< mutante_> can hold_one's_urine really be a noun?
< LinkyC> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hold_one%27s_urine
< Amgine> I... don't think so. I've never ever heard that phrase.
< Dvorty|gone> hold it might be used idiomatically that way, but I don't think that one is really used as such.
< LinkyC> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hold_it
< Dvorty|gone> And it looks like the page only shows up on cleanup lists and categorizing pages: Special:WhatLinksHere/hold_one's_urine
< mutante_> change Noun to Verb ?
< Dvorty|gone> mutante: yes, and then RFV/RFD the whole thing.  I don't think it's really used that way that much.

Mutante 16:12, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Out of context this sounded odd to me, but I checked b.g.c.; google books:"held his urine" gets 110 hits, and when I look through them, in context they sound quite natural to me. I'll add a few to the entry. —Ruakh_TALK 16:43, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Cited. —Ruakh_TALK 17:09, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

What was the entry before? Seems painfully sum-of-parts and wildly uncommon. In what way is it a set phrase or idiomatic? Move to RFD and delete. --Connel MacKenzie 00:56, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

RFV passed. Tag will be removed forthwith. Not striking this section, so it won't be bot-archived, and can be moved to RFD per Connel.—msh210℠ 21:11, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

• Not set phrase, not common phrase, not idiomatic, not a recognized phrase, only sum of parts - but only then, in a very restricted context. --Connel MacKenzie 01:06, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Keep. Regarding its commonness: google books:"hold|holds|holding|held my|our|your|his|her|its|their|one's urine" gets 662 hits, which isn't half bad given its fairly limited context. Regarding its sum-of-parts-ness: I see how you could think that, but I think you're mistaken. Note that the term was originally defined here wrongly, and as far as I can tell, no one suspected the right definition until I actually added a few quotations, and looked through other b.g.c. hits, and the correct definition became clear. (The definition originally given would have been accurate for (deprecated template usage) hold it in, though.) I think that if native speakers can't accurately guess the meaning of a phrase, that suggests that the term is not sum-of-parts. Regarding its restricted context: Odd, I'd have considered that a reason to keep the entry, so that we can elucidate that context. —Ruakh_TALK 14:04, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

No consensus: kept.—msh210℠ 20:11, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Space Shuttle

The entry is about a proper name, but it's not one that has passed into the common language- it's capitalised which can only refer to NASA's STS, and hence isn't eligible to be here. The uncapitalised version would be perfectly valid however.Wolfkeeper 23:47, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Strong keep, either as is or move to uncapitalized (if in fact it should be uncapitalized). —Stephen 17:36, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Keep but move to lower case. While there is some use of the capitalised form, it is normally reserved for the name of a particular shuttle, such as Space Shuttle Colombia. Should not be deleted, but move to lower case with a usage note for the upper.--Dmol 18:08, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Keep. As Wolfkeeper says, it's quite common (and IMHO more correct) to write "the Space Shuttle", capital-S-es, when using it as a weak proper noun referring to NASA's (even without specifying which exact shuttle is meant). It's like how we can use "the President" (capitalized) out of context to refer to the President of the United States, but ordinarily not to the president of a corporation. My personal preference would be to keep both [[space shuttle]] and [[Space Shuttle]], just as we have both [[earth]] and [[Earth]], [[sun]] and [[Sun]], [[bible]] and [[Bible]], etc.; but I definitely see Wolfkeeper's point, and I wouldn't mind if we instead made [[Space Shuttle]] a redirect to [[space shuttle]], with a helpful usage note like you suggest. —Ruakh_TALK 23:16, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

I suppose it can be used in an attributive sense 'The Space Shuttle Columbia', so it meets the definition of Wiktionary:Criteria_for_inclusion.Wolfkeeper 03:06, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Comment. Space Shuttle Columbia is, I think, like Doctor Smith or Mister Smith; we have Doctor in this sense, but, I think, should not, and we lack Mister. But I'm not sure whether Space Shuttle is also used by itslef capitalized. Is this a question for RFV rather than RFD?—msh210℠ 16:20, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

There is also usage like "the Space Shuttle program", "the Space Shuttle booster", and "the Space Shuttle heat shield" which is simply attributive. I wouldn't be terribly surprised to find "the space shuttle Columbia", just like "the aircraft carrier Ronald Reagan". "Mister" and "Doctor" are formally recognized titles, whereas "Space Shuttle" and "aircraft carrier" are not; I think they are merely there to make sure that the audience knows which thing named "Ronald Reagan" (a formal name) is being discussed (office building, airport, aircraft carrier, etc.). DCDuring TALK 18:27, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

• Keep per Wolfkeeper, DCDuring. bd2412 T 04:53, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

defensive line of scrimmage

SoP IMO: defensive + line of scrimmage. DCDuring TALK 15:25, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Delete per nom. —Ruakh_TALK 19:06, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Delete per no. Thryduulf 19:56, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

clocked out DCDuring TALK 17:56, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Deleted.—msh210℠ 20:09, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

flengja með belti

This is a clear sum of parts, has no idiomatic meaning. Therefore, it should no more exist than an English entry of “spank with a belt”. – Krun 23:57, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

ojo

I put this up for rfv a while back but I didn't get much satisfaction. IMO we don't need this at all. Also if this "passes" rfd then please see to the deletion of youkoso(which is only a redirect) and youkai. Discuss--50 Xylophone Players talk 11:42, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Keep. We certainly need the entry page for the Spanish definition if nothing else. Angr 13:14, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

PalkiaX50 is referring specifically to the Japanese section. Don't worry, no one's going to delete the entry as a whole, just possibly remove the Japanese section. —Ruakh_TALK 13:38, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

The Japanese looks very good to me, very useful, and makes finding the correct meaning and kanji easy. As discussed previously, it should be kept. —Stephen 17:55, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

*sighs* But is this not just something like (N.B. this is hypothetical) if you were to put troop at troupe (if troupe wasn't a word)--50 Xylophone Players talk 21:00, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

I know almost nothing about Japanese, and nothing about how it's Romanized, but if accent marks are necessary, then why shouldn't this be deleted (and replaced with {{also}})?—msh210℠ 19:15, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Xbox

Trade name of a product, no attributive use. Robert Ullmann 04:55, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

cited, IMO. (Should have been RfV'd.) DCDuring TALK 00:55, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, and would pass on 2007 Tyree, 2008 French, and probably one of the other quotes although I haven't investigated them. DAVilla 04:35, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

BitTorrent

Another one. Robert Ullmann 04:59, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Note that the sense at torrent is fine, but should refer to WP. Sense at tracker doesn't look like a separate sense at all. Robert Ullmann 11:54, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Shouldn't this entry be modeled on [[Ethernet]]? Are there any facts that would make that impossible? DCDuring TALK 15:44, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

plonk in the middle

The term should be "plonk" as an adverb; it is a synonym of "bang", "slap bang", etc, and can be used in other phrases than the one given (eg, "plonk at the start"). — Paul G 09:31, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

We have that s.v. plonk. Delete.—msh210℠ 20:06, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

got it

Is this worth keeping? If so, it needs serious work. --EncycloPetey 20:20, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't like it. It's just an elliptical form of "I have got it", and we have "to understand" under get. This would open the floodgates for phrases like "done it" (task) and "seen it" (film). Equinox 20:47, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

I think got it is worth keeping at least in phrasebook, in the sense of "now I understand." All these warnings of floods and slippery slopes never seem to pan out. I don’t recall any entry that ushered in a flood of nonsense. The only slippery slopes I’ve seen have been in regard to deleting articles, not writing them. —Stephen 22:35, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps if it was classed as an interjection Got it! it could be a good solution that would keep all floodgates secured for the time being. -- ALGRIF talk 11:48, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Reclassified as interjection. Seems like it needs a {{non-gloss definition}}. DCDuring TALK 11:57, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Careful. This is a pro-sentence (standing for "I have got it") not an interjection. — Paul G 14:12, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Another reason for my dislike: consider the question "Be nice to her -- got it?". "Got it?" is a phrase on equal standing with "Got it", but here the omitted pronoun is "you" and not "I". Or consider "It's none of your business -- get it?", which has a different tense. To me, these possibilities reinforce the idea that it's just got+it, can be inflected any old way, and isn't a special form requiring separate definition. Equinox 13:47, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure it's a pro-sentence so much as a sentence with ellipsis. Would you consider “Going to the store; want anything?” to be a pro-sentence standing for “I’m going to the store; do you want anything?”? —Ruakh_TALK 14:05, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

If we are to have this entry, what is its relationship to get it? It seems as if it is just an inflected form. I don't know about the value of "get it" as an entry. The meaning-in-use just seems to be pragmatics, a worthwhile subject in an Appendix, and perhaps worth having a usage note or example for, perhaps an important subject for WikiGrammary. DCDuring TALK 14:58, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

It seems to me that this should just be a {{past of|[[get it]]}} entry, like getting it and gets it are. The entry at get it has four idiomatic and one literal definition, so that seems highly valuable to me (I just looked it up to see what state our entry was in). Thryduulf 13:23, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Thryduulf.—msh210℠ 20:05, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

there's plenty more fish in the sea

I would say that "There are ..." is the correct form, as "fish" is plural here. Of course, "fish" can be a singular noun and still refer to a plurality of animals, but I think that the form using "there's" is merely an example of the colloquial trend for using "there's" where "there are" is required, simply because the former is easier to say. — Paul G 14:11, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Retain as a hard redirect to the correct form, per Paul G’s arguments. † ﴾^(u):Raifʻhār ^(t):Doremítzwr﴿ 14:21, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Retain as hard redirect or delete. More common form is there are plenty of fish in the sea. That would be the best single redirect target for all variants. DCDuring TALK 23:56, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Could this be reduced to fish in the sea? sewnmouthsecret 05:11, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Kept as redirect.—msh210℠ 20:03, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

twisted in knots

I don't doubt that this phrase can be used, but is it an authentic idiom or set phrase worthy of a dictionary definition? Seems more like just an unremarkable SoP construction using established senses of "twisted" and "knot". -- WikiPedant 05:24, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

delete Might be good in a usage example at knot or twist. DCDuring TALK 20:26, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm. Is "in knots"/"in a knot" an idiomatic intensifying adverb? Not sure how a figurative sense of "knot" appropriate to twisted in knots would be written. DCDuring TALK 20:39, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Idiomatic? No, I wouldn't think so, not anymore than "in pieces", "by steps", or "in thirds". A knot can be any hard lump, such as having one's muscles in knots, which is figurative. --EncycloPetey 20:44, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

We don't have that sense. DCDuring TALK 23:11, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

KEEP. Its idiomatic... most in America (US) understand that people who say it do not think their stomach is LITERALLY in a knot just that it feels that way. Also a non-native speaker would never guess "anxiety" ^confused and busy^ from the sum of parts. Goldenrowley 03:32, 8 October 2008 (UTC) For record I have a small problem with the sense of "confused" but its well-known phrase for anxiety. Goldenrowley 03:40, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

October 2008

broken English

SoP: broken + English? --Hekaheka 15:30, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Delete We even have the right sense of broken with a usage example including the term. DCDuring TALK 15:56, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Keep-ish. Strikes me as a set phrase, although it's never been 100% clear to me whether that is enough in itself to satisfy WT:CFI. -- WikiPedant 05:25, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Rereading WT:CFI and Wiktionary:Idioms that survived RFD, the words "set phrase" do not appear there. If they should, they should be part of a rewrite that gets voted on. DCDuring TALK 15:26, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

The waters are muddied--or, perhaps, the plot is thickened--by the usage note in the WT defn of set phrase, which includes idioms as a subset of set phrases. So it seems that some set phrases are idioms (and, therefore, satisfy CFI) and some are not (and, therefore, ...?) -- WikiPedant 22:51, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Logically: 1., not all set phrases are idioms. 2., idiomaticity is required to meet CFI. Therefore, being a set phrase is not sufficient to meet CFI.

The idiomaticity tests provide plenty of opportunities for arguing that a given collocation meets CFI as an idiom, but no one has seized them. DCDuring TALK 23:30, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, DC, I get what you're saying: Forget about set-phrasehood; just worry about idiomaticity. My problem is that their entanglement just seems to go on and on. Some set phrases are not idioms, some are sort-of wannabe idioms, and some are idioms; but many, maybe all, set phrases (including broken English!) seem to me to satisfy some of the rule-of-thumb tests for idiomaticity at Wiktionary:Idioms that survived RFD, such as the "Egyptian pyramid test" or the "In between test." -- WikiPedant 00:17, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Ultimately, I could live with any solution that ended up being voted on and made part of WT:CFI. That means something operationalizable, yet flexible. Only such a solution will avoid Wiktionary decisions from appearing somewhere on the spectrum between arbitrary and elitist. I thought that the idiomaticity tests gave many ways for something to be included. Evidently many are not satisfied with that level of inclusiveness when it comes down to cases.

I do not think that a real-world institution such as Wiktionary can necessarily rely on academically defined, theoretically pure concepts. At best it can work with the experimentalists' versions of those concepts. More realistically, it needs to further simplify so that tired, busy humans can implement decisions. DCDuring TALK 01:43, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Keep, but needs to be rewritten and expanded. --Ptcamn 13:35, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Are you saying that you believe that the "keepish" reason seems strong enough to warrant a "keep"? DCDuring TALK 15:26, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

I would weakly support this, except that it allows entries for broken X where X is any one of over 2,000 languages. Aaargh! -- ALGRIF talk 16:20, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Comment If we keep this I see no good rationale for deleting broken Norwegian and a few others I can think of off the top of my head... __meco 17:00, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Delete - this is a meaning of broken, and can be used before any language name: "broken French", "broken German", "broken Japanese", etc. --EncycloPetey 17:14, 2 October 2008 (UTC)--50 Xylophone Players talk 20:11, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

I didn't think that there would be 800+ raw bgc hits for "broken French" (700+ German and Spanish; 600+ Arabic, Italian, Chinese, Russian, and Japanese; and 100+ for Norwegian) vs. 2400+ for "broken English", but there are. DCDuring TALK 21:05, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Delete per DCDuring (15:56, 1 October 2008 (UTC)).—msh210℠ 17:47, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Delete per EncycloPetey (17:14, 2 October 2008 (UTC))

Delete per DCDuring; it is English that's broken. Equinox 20:13, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Keep. Set phrase. Meaning is not the same as "bad English" "poor English" or "uneducated English". —Stephen 21:30, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Excuse me but might I ask did you read DCDuring's first comment? broken English=broken(the sense tagged to say that it is related to languages)+English.--50 Xylophone Players talk 21:50, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Read it, completely irrelevant. It’s a set phrase. Definitely a keep. —Stephen 21:54, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Help me out. Why is "set phrase" a relevant criterion? AFAICT by reading + searching, "set phrase" is not part of CFI, the legitimizing cover for all of our RfD decisions. See above for the simple logic of idiomaticity and being a set phrase. DCDuring TALK 23:30, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

I would not be bothered if this were Deleted. (But Stephen – dude, help me out with #wait for above!). Ƿidsiþ 21:57, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Delete. I agree with Stephen that we should keep set phrases, but I think EncycloPetey, DCDuring, and Equinox have shown that this isn't one. (E.g. in that "his English was broken" gets 128 raw b.g.c. hits, all seemingly in this sense.) —Ruakh_TALK 23:21, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Could you explain how being a "set phrase" is a sufficient condition for meeting CFI, as currently written? It might not be a bad criterion for us to vote on, mind you. DCDuring TALK 23:36, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

CFI says it requires "idiomaticity", and implies that that means "the property of being an idiom"; but if you read its examples, I think it requires something in between. (I think CFI's definition of "idiom" isn't much stricter than my definition of "set phrase".) —Ruakh_TALK 00:02, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

"His English was broken" is not a set phrase, but broken English is. Your definition of set phrase is clearly different from mine. For one thing, set phrases are often given a place in dictionaries. No dictionary will have an entry for "his English was broken", but my Simon and Schuster’s International has broken English (inglés chapurreado), Cassell’s German dictionary has gebrochenes Englisch. broken English is a set term that one would expect to find in a good dictionary, and a term that no experienced translator would attempt to translate into any other language without looking in a dictionary or similar resource to see the proper idiomatic equivalent. —Stephen 23:39, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Three questions, that are really one question:

1. Do your dictionaries have separate entries for (deprecated template usage) broken English as for (deprecated template usage) broken, or do they treat (deprecated template usage) broken English under (deprecated template usage) broken?
2. Do your dictionaries have entries for (deprecated template usage) broken French etc.?
3. Do your dictionaries include the relevant sense of (deprecated template usage) broken in addition to an entry for (deprecated template usage) broken English?

My overall question is, do your dictionaries have entries for (deprecated template usage) broken English because they think that's really a set phrase that needs its own translation, or are they simply using the example of “broken English” to clearly disambiguate the relevant translation of (deprecated template usage) broken? If the latter, then I think Wiktionary's already got that covered through our system of define + exemplify + translate + link to full coverage of translation. :-)

—Ruakh_TALK 00:02, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Paper dictionaries may have either of two different styles, either (1) listing these terms in a running paragraph under the head noun, or (2) as fully separate entries. The cheaper the dictionary, the more likely it is that all the related terms will be listed in paragraph form under one head word. The purpose has nothing to do with linguistics or semantics, but is only used to save space (this is fine for the occasional user, but it’s murder on regular translators who are forced to pore over the articles laboriously searching for the pertinent term hidden somewhere in the foot-long paragraphs). My most expensive dictionaries which are designed for regular professional use, such as my Dictionnaire technique du pétrole and my English-Spanish Pan-American livestock dictionary, squander the space in favor of a user-friendly format where all the entries are treated separately. Since Wiktionary is not confined to paper, we don’t have to worry about trying to save column-inches of space, and all such terms should be treated separately. —Stephen 05:39, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I still see no reference to "set phrase" in WT:CFI. Arguably, then, it is completely irrelevant to the question of deletion.

Wiktionary (and Wikipedia) stand bravely alone among the real OneLook English references in having an entry for this.

set phrase offers two definitions. I can't determine the operational meaning of the first sense, so I use the second. I would accept an operationalized version of the first definition.

Using the first sense, as I understand it, wouldn't the following example indicate a lack of "setness"? "Caruso's recording, sung in a broken American English accent, has become a collector's item." DCDuring TALK 00:18, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

"broken American English" is not a set term...broken English is a set term. It’s not unusual that you can do various things to a set term, but doing so usually results in something that is not a set term. "Yellow shirt" is not a set term, but everybody knows the common English term for English that is mangled in a foreign way, or broken English. Sodium carbonate is another set term, in spite of the fact that you can have sodium bicarbonate as well as carbonate of sodium. Set term doesn’t mean fossilized or petrified. —Stephen 04:59, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I would argue that it's not a set term. I can say "He spoke in English that was halting and broken." --EncycloPetey 05:15, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Stephen: What is your definition of a set term. It doesn't seem to correspond to either sense in the entry. It seems not to have anything to do with the potential for varying the structure, using synonyms, etc. How could someone recognize a set phrase of your definition? Is it completely ineffable? Could we identify such phrases experimentally, as by asking 50 uneducated native speakers some set of questions? Is there a way to establish objective criteria that we could actually use? DCDuring TALK 12:09, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Compact Oxford gives a definition: "an unvarying phrase having a specific meaning or being the only context in which a word appears." Wordnet gives "idiom, idiomatic expression, phrasal idiom, set phrase, phrase -- (an expression whose meanings cannot be inferred from the meanings of the words that make it up)". Wiktionary's definitions seem idiosyncratic and technical. Stephen's definition seems ineffable or, rather, has yet to be effed. DCDuring TALK 12:21, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Someone came up with the idea that a set term must be invariable and not dividable, which is convenient but arbitrary. To burn down is a fixed term, even though you can say "burn down the house" or "burn the house down". I got my degrees in linguistics and foreign languages over 30 years ago and I have worked in the industry ever since, applying what I learned then. I’ve translated hundreds of thousands of pages, looking up millions of words and terms in thousands of different dictionaries over the years. I don’t think about definition anymore, it has become second nature for me. When I want to look up a term, I always know whether to search for the whole term or look at the individual words. This rule of invariability that you are applying is faulty. As I said, I concern myself with translations, not definitions, but I’ll try to verbalize what I do in this case subconsciously.

If there is a specific thing or action, there is a term for the thing or action. Ideally the term is one word, but frequently it is more than one word. The customary term for that thing or action is a set term, regardless of whether it is one word or more. A hamburger is a specific thing, and hamburger is the term for it. If, instead of hamburger, we had all decided to call that item a "Teutonic sandwich", and "Teutonic sandwich" became the customary and usual term for it, then "Teutonic sandwich" would be a set term, in spite of the fact that you might vary it in ways that the one word hamburger cannot be varied: "this sandwich is Teutonic", a "Teutonic with cheese sandwich", and so on. That specific thing would still have the customary name of "Teutonic sandwich", and "Teutonic sandwich" in that hypothetical situation would be a set term. You would not look under Teutonic and then sandwich to piece together what that dish is, you would look for the full term "Teutonic sandwich". If you add a different thing to the hamburger, such as cheese, and if you consider it as separate from the hamburger, then you have a hamburger with cheese. This not NOT a fixed term, because it is a phrase made up of two terms referring to two specific things, hamburger and cheese. Since cheese has now become so common on a hamburger, we have developed the word cheeseburger for it. If, instead of cheeseburger to refer to this one specific thing, we had decided to call it a "Teutonic cheese sandwich", then "Teutonic cheese sandwich" would be the customary term for this specific item and it would be a fixed term, even though it would be possible to stick other words into the phrase under some circumstances. The customary term for the specific thing is a fixed term, one word or not.

It does not matter if a specific thing or action is referred to by a one-word or multiple-word term, and it does not matter if the multiple-word term can sometimes have other words interposed, it is still a set term. There are many languages that, contrary to English, regularly use single words to refer to complex ideas, multiple things or actions, mixtures of things and actions. They are the synthetic and polysynthetic languages, such as the Algonquin, Athabaskan, and Eskimo-Aleut languages, and also languages such as Finnish. The fact that one word can be the equivalent of a complex clause or sentence in English does not make the word a set term. By the same token, in analytical languages such as English and Vietnamese, having a multiple-word for a specific thing does not mean that the term is anything less than set, in spite of the fact that, having multiple words, it is sometimes possible to stick other words in the middle of it.

broken English is a specific thing. Semantically speaking, it would be perfectly logical for there to be a one-word term for the phenomenon, and if there were, it would not be questioned. But, English being as analytical as it is, this specific defect is customarily referred to with the term broken English, and broken English is a set term, in spite of the fact that you can also have broken German or say that one’s English is broken (although I have never heard or read "Engish is broken" before now). It would also be very logical if we had a single term to refer to the condition regardless of the language, instead of our actual "broken English" and "broken German", but language is not always completely logical or efficient, and in this case we have a fixed term that applies only to English.

This is the best I can do to describe how I process terms automatically. It may not be crystal clear or cleanly expressed, but it’s the best I can do. The arbitrary rule you’ve been using as a razor to determine set terms is easy to apply but it is faulty and shuts out a great many valid terms. A thing or an action has a name, and that name is a term that we should have. —Stephen 17:24, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Just to add to Stephen's excellent analysis – the key concept to consider is not set term, but whether something is idiomatic or not. You will notice the definition of idiomatic has nothing to do with being sum-of-parts or not, but rather to do with whether a particular phrase is "characteristic of a given language". Terms are idiomatic not because their meaning is difficult to understand (it often isn't), but because they are uniquely common collocations of words that sound natural in English. Ƿidsiþ 17:57, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for that explanation. Unfortunately, for those of us who don't have thirty years' experience, it's not obvious how to tell whether something is a set phrase by that definition. (At least, to me it's not obvious; maybe everyone else is set now. :-P ) Perhaps we should use a variant of the lemming test (the "if your dictionaries jumped off a cliff" test)? This also raises questions of how to cover such terms; it seems silly to try to define (deprecated template usage) broken English as anything but “broken English”, and even the most comprehensive of monolingual English dictionaries, such as the OED Online, don't include it, even as a sub-entry under one term or the other. (For example, all the OED Online has is the relevant sense of (deprecated template usage) broken, with definition “of language: Imperfectly spoken, with the syntax incomplete” and three quotations.) Perhaps we should take this to the Beer parlour? —Ruakh_TALK 20:00, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

There do seem to be some matters for the Beer Parlor. 23:30, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Stephen. That explanation of "set phrase" is an example of what makes Wiktionary rewarding for someone like me. It it difficult to have the benefits of participation by volunteers if there are no operational criteria. Would it be possible to operationalize the criteria at all? Perhaps, by creating a set of criteria that would make something definitely a "set phrase" and another set that would make something definitely not a set phrase. Grey-area cases could be handled by grey heads. Perhaps we could get the greatest leverage from the mix of volunteers we have that way.

I also remain unclear as to how "set phrase" is incorporated into WT:CFI. DCDuring TALK 23:28, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Good analysis, Stephen. Partly how I look at "chunk theory". Most ideas in English, and other languages, are expressed in chunks, or groups of words that have a particular significance to a native speaker. (Not all chunks are set phrases or idioms, but all set phrases and idioms are chunks.) This particular chunk highlights a persistent problem which literally plagues Wikt. I refer to legal precedent (wow. not included yet!) where the inclusion of broken English means the automatic precedent for all other broken X to pass CFI. Is this really the case? OK. We can find plenty of cites for broken French and others, but that does not mean that broken Serbo-Croatian is going to make it, because of the lack of usage evidence. But contribs will continue to argue the case for inclusion on the grounds of precedent.
On the other hand, Wikt, being an online data based dictionary is used differently. I always bear in mind the example of how to teach a student how to find don't look a gift horse in the mouth. The answer is to look first at horse. But Wikt is different. If it was a paper dictionary, the answer to "broken English" would be to look at "broken", as per OED. But Wikt isn't a paper dictionary, and so the entry at broken English should be valid as a "chunk", or set phrase here, but there should also be an entry at broken similar to the OED. And, yes, it's clear that this needs to be hammered out at BP, to make CFI more relevant to usage. -- ALGRIF talk 12:53, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

I think the OED disagrees with you. The OED is not shy about having lots of subentries; indeed, in many cases an entry will contain a list of subentries that only mention a term's existence, leaving it to the reader to infer its meaning. But in the case of (deprecated template usage) broken English, it doesn't even do that; it only defines the relevant sense of (deprecated template usage) broken. —Ruakh_TALK 15:31, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

That's just what I meant. They only have the sense at "broken", but Wikt should have both entries IMHO. Also, being a limited-to-paper dictionary, of course they only make mention of some uses in sub entries. Wikt can be much better than that, if we can address the problem of precedent. -- ALGRIF talk 15:58, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't think their paper-ness is the issue. They define the relevant sense of "broken", and provide two quotations that contain the phrase "broken English" (plus one with "broken English and Dutch"); if they genuinely thought that "broken English" was a "set phrase" or a "chunk" or any other such, they'd have included it, simple as that. If we add [[broken English]], I don't think we should kid ourselves that it's because we're comprehensive than the OED in terms of our monolingual coverage of English, or English set terms, or any other such. It would be because the entry is useful to translators, and that's it. —Ruakh_TALK 01:53, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I see we are most likely in agreement then. We are both thinking about Wikt being useful. In fact I believe that most contribs are thinking about the same thing. I just happen to think that two entries; one a "broken" (sense) and one at "broken English" would be the most useful way to deal with this in an on-line paperless dictionary. And that CFI might possibly need to be modified a little as a consequence. Nothing more. -- ALGRIF talk 12:26, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I think that "broken English" is an example of an expression that we would want to make sure appeared in one or more usage examples if it did not appear as an entry. I don't think that the OED "accidentally" included "broken English" in their entry for "broken". At some point it may be highly desirable for such expressions to have their own entries.

The usefulness of a term for translators could become an explicit criterion for inclusion. I wonder whether there is a class of entry we should have for useful "objects of translation". That a given phrase is useful in that way is evidence that there is a thought-unit or "chunk" that it represents. Such "chunks" might be proto-words of some kind. Usefulness to translators and "chunkiness" are not now part of CFI, however. DCDuring TALK 13:42, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Delete per EP. DAVilla 04:27, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

I see Hekaheka, DCDuring, EP, myself, Equinox, Widsith (weakly), Ruakh, and DAVilla saying to delete, and WikiPedant, Ptcamn, and SGB saying to keep. Deleted.—msh210℠ 20:01, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Corrected your comment, please forgive me. 72.177.113.91 07:59, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Transwiki:Epeen

Very slender usage Goldenrowley 04:57, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

RFV.—msh210℠ 19:55, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

commit a bill

SoP. 1st sense of commit in our def. Synonyms possible for bill ("draft", "proposal"). DCDuring TALK 18:30, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

So it means to give someone a dollar to hold in trust? I would never have guessed that, but it’s as good as anything else I can think of. If you don’t know what it means, you can’t make a reliable guess just by looking at the definitions for commit and bill. Seems cryptic to me. —Stephen 17:21, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Are we to have entries for all collocations? I don't know the right assumptions to make about our users' abilities to make inferences from context, but I suspect that they can make some successfully. They need to be able to use context information to reduce the combinatorial explosion of possible entries. We could make Wiktionary quite unmaintainable by including SoP collocations. DCDuring TALK 18:45, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Just depends on whether we want to tell people what something means. If commit a bill is a term of art in business or some industry, it’s one that I don’t know and would not be able to figure out by looking at the individual words. As far as I’m concerned, if someone has written the article with a reasonable definition and formatting, it should stay. Its presence does not mean that one or some of us should make a project out of finding any other collocations. It’s useful, it explains a term that I with my university education could not figure out, and there is no reason to take it as a mandate to add other collocations. —Stephen 20:13, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Too many meanings to be clear on which apply. Keep. DAVilla 04:23, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Brer Rabbit

Does this meet our CFI? --Jackofclubs 06:58, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

How does CFI apply to folk characters? DCDuring TALK 12:29, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Both Brer Rabbit and Brer Fox are used in other texts assuming the reader understands the characters and the moral of the story. Here's one that it took me 5 seconds to find ---

• For the time being Gordon Brown has decided like Brer Rabbit to lie low and say nuffin'. --- ALGRIF talk 12:43, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

• Keep, per Algrif's analysis. CFI for a character should be pretty much the same as for a brand name: show that it's used the requisite number of times outside the context of the story. bd2412 T 04:37, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Keep, by all that is holy. DCDuring TALK 11:05, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

on course

purportedly an idiom. But see course#Noun. DCDuring TALK 03:25, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Oops. Sense (among others) seems to be missing at course. DCDuring TALK 03:30, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

penalty goal

Certainly not specific to just rugby, but this seems like mere sum of parts to me. --EncycloPetey 21:02, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Looks like a SoP to me as well. Delete. --Hekaheka 09:30, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Delete With that definition it certainly seems SoP. DCDuring TALK 10:29, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

I haven’t read it yet and, knowing nothing of rugby, I have trouble imagining what it could mean. If one team commits a certain offence, is it that the opposing team is given a point on its score as though it had made a goal? Or is it that the opposing team is given the chance to try for a goal by kicking or hitting the ball from a certain distance without interference from the penalized team? —Stephen 17:15, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

For such a question I'd recommend WP or the rulebook. DCDuring TALK 19:08, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

You mean use Wikipedia as a dictionary. —Stephen 20:06, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Keep - I wasn't sure of the meaning until I looked at it. Seems to have been added by Wonderfool, but that's OK. SemperBlotto 08:07, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Keep. Not sum of parts. Along the lines of Stephen, even reading the definition I'm not sure what it means. (Right, I obviously don't watch the sport.) Moreover, one would wonder if it is automatic, awarded to one team as a penalty to the other. Or without context it could be misread as having another meaning for "goal", like a separate area reserved for penalty shots. DAVilla 08:01, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Gallo

This time around, I'm adding the first English definition too - a brand of Californian wine. --Jackofclubs 12:14, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

:This one should perhaps be RfV'd as a brand name that might have enough attributive use for inclusion. DCDuring TALK 19:01, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

It has already passed RfV. What grounds for reopening? DCDuring TALK 19:04, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

How did it pass RFV? Two of the quotations clearly identify it as alcohol. We could use one other. DAVilla 07:50, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

-to-

Not an infix. Not a likely term for searches. content meaning at to. Or is this the prototype for a new class of entries? DCDuring TALK 10:43, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Since I'm the one who requested it (at [[Wiktionary:Requested entries:English]]) and am not the one who fulfilled the request, I feel a bit guilty saying this — but I think you're right. —Ruakh_TALK 01:16, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

The "not-an-infix" point, if true, would just mean it would need a different PoS. We have many terms that are unlikely search terms. I'd be surprised that all and only the senses at [[to]] applied to [[-to-]]. I really could see a case for the entry and it would be a prototype for a new type of entry or, at least, some new material at [[to]]. DCDuring TALK 02:12, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

This seems like a phrase template of sorts, "X-to-X" (or "X-to-Y"). Did we ever come to a decision on how to handle these? IMO there's no particular reason to have them in mainspace, since no one will ever search for either "-to-" or "X-to-Y" as such; but an appendix would be a nice supplement to the entries for individual phrases. -- Visviva 03:38, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

For years, the consensus was to entry the most common form of "X-to-Y" as an entry, with other relatively common forms redirecting to it. AFAIK, the only issue questioned, was if the links should be "hard" or "soft." But each pattern and the entries resulting from that pattern were always to have individual discussions. --Connel MacKenzie 15:15, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Firstly, it would be an interfix (and not an infix), if anything. Secondly, (deprecated template usage) -to- seems better explained as the product of turning phrases into adjectives; e.g., a ground-to-air missle is a missle fired from (the) ground to (the) air. Agreed? † ﴾^(u):Raifʻhār ^(t):Doremítzwr﴿ 17:59, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I like your description. Keep. DAVilla 07:46, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree with DAVilla. Keep.50 Xylophone Players talk 15:32, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

If the description is right, several prepositions would seem to merit such entries. Usage examples: "hand-over-hand", "hole-in-one", "white-on-white", "sleight-of-hand", "tit-for-tat", "side-by-side". If not, why not? DCDuring Holiday Greetings! 17:21, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Err, my argument was meant to be as one for deletion… The hyphens are only added to denote the adjective — e.g., a (deprecated template usage) blue-collar worker traditionally wore a blue collar at work — they’re nothing to do with the “to” or with any other præposition; ditto the nouns, which are formed from the adjectives. † ﴾^(u):Raifʻhār ^(t):Doremítzwr﴿ 21:04, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Delete per Doremítzwr. This is simply (deprecated template usage) , with no special compositional qualities. Any etymologies can rightly link to (deprecated template usage) to. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 21:15, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Delete per nomination.—msh210℠ 19:53, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

semisweet chocolate

Sum of parts? Conrad.Irwin 01:00, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Has a specific regulatory meaning in the US: w:Types of chocolate#United states. -- Visviva 03:42, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I hate to ask, but as applied to chocolate, doesn't (deprecated template usage) semisweet have a specific regulatory meaning in the U.S., and doesn't (deprecated template usage) semisweet chocolate mean simply “chocolate that is semisweet”? —Ruakh_TALK 05:49, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Seemingly not a regulatory meaning, but I'd agree it has a colloquial one. Seems like a SoP to me, but, then again, I'm not in the food (or food law) field.—msh210℠ 17:48, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Hm, that link is dead (viz, was temporary). My intent was to show that the part of the Code of Federal Regulations that deals with food labeling refers to "semisweet chocolate" but never just "semisweet". Search for "semisweet" at http://www.gpoaccess.gov/cfr/ .—msh210℠ 19:03, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

political label

A term used to categorize people based on their political beliefs or tendencies. SoP, IMO. DCDuring TALK 15:46, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Assuming that the current definition is correct (I've never heard of this term before), this is not sum of parts. The intuitive meaning is that it is a means of organizing something to do with politics, but the stated meaning says implies stereotyping and negative connotations. Also, using 'label' to mean a group is not common as it usually. Perhaps someone else knows more about the term, but I would be hesitant to delete it. Yartrebo 06:05, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

accumulation of energy

SoP, IMHO. Extracted from accumulation. DCDuring TALK 15:21, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

So why did you add it? You're just wasting time and resources. (You got the plural wrong as well, but don't bother correcting it just yet) SemperBlotto 15:29, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

I extracted it from an entry to expose it to others on this page. I wanted to expose it to the opinions of others because my judgment is fallible. DCDuring TALK 16:03, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

In the future just remove it from the page, and if anyone doubts you they can prove themselves by creating an entry to pass through RFD. Creating the entry is not your responsibility. Plus, you do not need approval to trim a page, although you would need to document in comments what you trimmed, and it's always better to be surer than not to avoid stepping on toes. DAVilla 08:20, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

This does indeed appear to be a sum of parts. Replacing parts of the phrase with synonyms (ie., a 'buildup of potential') does not change the meaning and the meaning can be derived from the individual words. I suggest deletion. Yartrebo 05:56, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, SoP, delete, and the one below as well. --Hekaheka 21:15, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

accumulation of degrees

SoP. Extracted from derived terms at accumulation. DCDuring TALK 15:26, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to see examples of this to be certain. The definition seems more warped than a straightforward explanation of the meaning would be able to account for. DAVilla 08:13, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

November 2008

derivatives market

SoP. [[derivatives]] [[market]] DCDuring TALK 10:53, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, and these probably too: stock market, money market, futures market, commodity market. They are all listed as related terms under financial market. Maybe that should go as well? --Hekaheka 17:24, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm. "Derivatives market" is in no OneLook dictionary. All the others are in multiple dictionaries. I think that in the case of the ones that are in other dictionaries there are definite non-SoP aspects with regard to the items on the market. Eg, the stock market sells more than stock and not all kinds of stock. In all cases the dictionary terms seem to refer to the markets that have publicly advertised prices set at least daily. The term derivatives market seems to refer to any market on which any derivative is traded, including the infamous credit default swaps. The "financial markets" seems to some kind of personified aggregation, to judge from the media. DCDuring TALK 18:08, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

The reason for derivatives market not being in other dictionaries may be simply that it is a newer phenomenon. I don't see any fundamental difference with, say, futures market. --Hekaheka 06:57, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Some of the markets seem to differ from those we have included: currency market, gold market, overnight funds market, options market, securities market, Eurodollar market, swaps market, swap market, commodities market. (Bond market could be added to the blue links.) Some are old, some are new, some are red, some are blue.

This is the definition shown: "A market where various financial derivatives are bought and sold." I rest my case. Further, I doubt that an accurate definition could be provided that was not SoP. DCDuring TALK 12:45, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

The definition is far from perfect, but that wasn't my point. The point is that the term itself is not materially more SoP than the others that I mentioned, nor is it necessarily less SoP than the red links which you listed. The definitions for money market and commodity market simply list examples of what is traded and futures market repeats the definition of a financial future and combines it with the word market. Both "improvements" can be easily done for the definition of derivatives market. --Hekaheka 13:38, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

We cannot run this process relying on hypothetical definitions. We need to assess what we have. I have been reviewing our business, finance, management, and economics. If I can improve an SoP definition, I try to do so. I can't for this one. Perhaps someone else can. If no one can come up with a definition that is not sum of the parts and not encyclopedic, then it ought to be deleted. DCDuring TALK 15:47, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

• Keep. Strongly agree with User:Hekaheka on this one. Obviously in widespread use, not sum of parts; colloquially it has enormous connotations beyond the literal meaning. But withing the finance industry, the meaning is probably more specific than we should guess at. Not sure how this could ever be construed as sum-of-parts at all. --Connel MacKenzie 15:07, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

• This is not RfV. If it has connotations, let them be laid out as a non-gloss definition. If we don't have anyone who can do it, perhaps it can't be done. If we can't recruit anyone with more expertise and experience in this field than I have, then we may not have the ability to make good on the "all words in all languages" claim in this area yet. DCDuring TALK 15:47, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

E-net_Assignment_of_dec'08_for_NCC_student

E-net_Assignment_of_dec'08_for_NCC_student Talk:E-net_Assignment_of_dec'08_for_NCC_student Security_issues_related_to_a_wireless_network

Not dictionary material. Maybe I've gone soft. A few years ago, I would have deleted it on sight. Now I don't know, maybe there is another project where this actually can belong and this user merely made a mistake by posting it here. I took some effort on his/her part to create it, so much is obvious. Polyglot 07:26, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

If sole copy was put here by mistake, is user likely to find it again? I think not. DCDuring TALK 12:52, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

ridge

Sense "Highest point on the roof, represented by a horizontal line where two roof areas intersect, running the length of the area" redundant with older sense "The line along which two sloping surfaces meet which diverge towards the ground" imo.—msh210℠ 21:05, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm not so sure. Consider the hypothetical example: "The chimney was located at the west end of the ridge." It is possible for the context to pertain specifically to a roof, without allowing for additional interpretations, yet without mentioning a "roof" explicitly. --EncycloPetey 21:10, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

The existence of the fairly common term [[ridge vent]] makes me think that the word has a sense that might specifically refer to a roof. The first few OneLook dictionaries I looked at seem to have more than 4 senses, including one that mentions "roof". The entry needs clean-up at the definition level. (For example, a ridge is never a "point"; a line does not "represent" a point; a single point does not run the length of the roof.) DCDuring TALK 00:00, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

curry

Adjective. Attributive use of noun, I think, though def. is not exact match. DCDuring TALK 00:27, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

• The use of the word curry in the West Indies is different from that in the Indian subcontinent. It always comes before the noun (e.g. curry goat) and seems to be used as an adjective. The dish seems to use different spices (I am not an expert, only having eaten curry goat once (and survived)). SemperBlotto 08:44, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

That raises the question of a split in the etymology. DCDuring TALK 10:33, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

saint&

I tried to add a new word and it showed up as 'saint&'. Could someone help me to delete this? Thanks.

When this happens, you can add the code {{delete}} or {{speedy}} without making a specific request. The best way to produce the right spelling for unusual diacriticals and scripts is to edit a page to produce a link, such as your User page. Then folow the link so created and create the entry. --EncycloPetey 20:28, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

thousand one

I'd rfc'd this, but EP suggested deletion and creation of an Appendix on number-word formation. I agree, though I am not sure that anyone would ever use the Appendix. The entry definitely seems SoP to me. DCDuring TALK 19:56, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Native English speakers might not use the appendix, but there are lots of fiddly spelling and hyphenation issues for English names of cardinal numbers that non-native speakers would find very useful to have an explanation for. There is also grammar to consider, since these words can function kind of like adjectives (but are not comparable) and kinds of like nouns (but the "plural" forms aren't used the same as the singular). --EncycloPetey 00:43, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't and didn't doubt the utility of the information. I doubt only that it would be found, except by a user being given the link, probably in response to an inquiry. We would need to have a very explicit and elaborate effort to provide hooks for such content. Right now I suspect (are there any facts?) that new users never find appendices that contain what they need. DCDuring TALK 11:15, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

2 cents..I try to put an appendix link under See also, or Usage notes, or whatever is the most useful placing. That way, the user will find the info. In this instance, "See also" in the entry number, and perhaps in specific entries such as one and hundred etc. -- ALGRIF talk 17:40, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Should we have a suggested layout for number words (and similar classes of entries, like letters, numbers, symbols) that contain such items as these links? Are there particularly good examples of any of these? We also by now must have guidelines about criteria by entries of the various kinds are to be excluded or included. I have had trouble finding them. Or do we just leave it bots and existing RfV/RfD? DCDuring TALK 18:03, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

The templates I set up for {{cardinalbox}} and {{ordinalbox}} were designed to clearly display an Appendix link in cases where an appropriate appendix exists. There are examples on the talk page for {{cardinalbox}} of what this looks like. --EncycloPetey 17:25, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and in answer to the other part of your question, Equinox went through the ordinal number entries and standardized/expanded them a few days ago, so you can look at entries for words like twelfth for examples of how they might be done. This doesn't, of course, include the additional problem of coordinating all the various numerical script systems that might be included, since ordinals aren't developed to that level yet the way that the cardinals are. --EncycloPetey 19:30, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Fantizi

See the tag in the entry for more, but also I can understand having ti to show how ignorant people often fail to indicate the critical tonal differences between the pronunciation of two things that would seem to be pronounced in the same way but surely we do not need full word "improper Pinyin" entries.--50 Xylophone Players talk 12:45, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

from on high

= [[from]] + [[on high]]. DCDuring TALK 01:20, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Definitely not, since in Webster's Dictionary (ref in the article) it is written: From high, from on high, from a high place, from an upper region, or from heaven., therefore on is dispensable. Bogorm 16:17, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

That's why we have on high as an entry. It is a set phrase or a relic of an earlier, more general way of constructing meaning. From, as a preposition, can be used with numerous words and phrase, both modern and antiquated. DCDuring TALK 16:28, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, delete, SoP.—msh210℠ 07:58, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

No, keep - the fact that both from on high and from high are possible and have a different meaning from the expected, refutes the supposition about "from + on high" and makes me disprove this proposition. Bogorm 11:37, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

The 1828 dictionary entry provides a long list of usage examples with adverbs, like "on high". The multiple forms on the same line are broadly parallel, not definitions of "from on high". They present the long list as an extended usage note for "from". DCDuring TALK 13:15, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Delete per nom. I'm trying to see Bogorm's POV, but I really think that "from on high" means "from" + "on high". The fact that "from high" means the same thing might (or might not) be an argument for a "from high" entry, but it is not argument for "from on high". (The reference to Webster's confuses me. By my reading, Webster's is glossing "from high" as "from on high, from a high place, from an upper region, or from heaven". I'm not sure why that would be considered an argument for "from on high" but not for "from a high place", "from an upper region", or "from heaven".) —Ruakh_TALK 00:53, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Strong Weak keep since on high is an adverb and cannot be combined in this way under regular grammatical rules. DAVilla 07:26, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

And why isn't it marked as an adverb? (On high I mean.) DAVilla 07:28, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Keep. I was previously ambivalent about the issue, but DAVilla's argument has swayed me. --EncycloPetey 02:16, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand the substance of the elliptical argument. Is DAVilla saying that from on high is different from from above? Is he saying that "from above" should be an entry? DCDuring TALK 03:38, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

I would say that from above deserves an entry, but we might also need a usage note at from, since it does not follow the usual rules expected of prepositions. The word from can take objects that are adverb/prepositions of direction, and by that I mean the object (when not a noun) must be a word usable as both an adverb and a preposition as well as indicating direction. That said, not all such combinations with from ought to have entries, since some of them have no truly idiomatic meaning. DAVilla's argument swayed me, but only because the combined expression is also idiomatic. Yes, on high as a separate component has the same idiomaticity, but I can't see how to easily explain at the entry for from that it is one of the preposition/adverbs of direction usable with that word. --EncycloPetey 03:54, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

All of this seems to result from there being no grammatical PoS assigned to "on high", which shows only the "Idioms" header. It would seem to be a noun (like "here" and "above"), rarely used as a subject. DCDuring TALK 11:09, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Hadn't considered that. I also found "from on board..." common in Google books. Not sure what to make of this right now. DAVilla 04:18, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

career break

SoP—msh210℠ 20:22, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Weak keep, but won't lose sleep if it is deleted. Doesn't always mean the person is not working, but that they are not working in their normal career.— This unsigned comment was added by Dmol (talk • contribs).

That would seem to make it SoP rather than a non-SoP euphemism. It is a [[career]] [[interruption]]. DCDuring TALK 11:43, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Weak keep. The definition is pretty straightforward, but figuratively it could be the end or breaking of, or that which breaks or ends, a career. Also there is this question of whether a person could be working in the meantime. DAVilla 02:51, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

No consensus: kept.—msh210℠ 19:49, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

quieten down

= [[quieten]] [[down]]. Synonym for quiet down. Note also that transitive use "to quiten (something/someone) down" is not defined. DCDuring TALK 18:06, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Huh? What sense of down is this? No, this seems very much like a phrasal verb to me, which we keep. I'm curious to know what Algrif thinks, though.—msh210℠ 22:36, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

There are two senses from MWOnline not shown at down#Adverb that might apply:

1. to or toward a lesser level, degree, or rate (3rd sense of 9)
2. to a state of less activity (7th; less likely).

MWOnline has 17 senses, subsenses, and sub-subsenses of down as adverb. We have 5. DCDuring TALK 23:48, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Cambridge dictionaries mark this as a phrasal verb, as do the Collins. They all state that the meaning is equivalent to quieten and that the preferred US usage is quiet and quiet down. I have added to the entry, even though it is still "rfd", BTW.
Phrasal verbs with down are difficult to determine, as are phrasals with up. They often have the same meaning (as this example under discussion), but there is a subtle distinction, which makes the teacher in class shout "Quienten down at once!" rather than "Quienten at once!", for instance. It's a bit like why we say "Fill her up", rather than "Fill her", at the petrol station. Possibly it's "degree", the idea of "completeness". -- ALGRIF talk 11:21, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

December 2008

Nnewi South

IMO this is an encyclopedic, not a dictionary entry (WT:CFI#Names of specific entities); also it tempts me to create Nnewi itself for the Xmas Competition Game 3 ;-).--Duncan MacCall 12:10, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

in office

SoP, IMHO. DCDuring TALK 17:22, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

IMHO, too.—msh210℠ 17:33, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

This isn't exactly sense 3 of office at the moment. Even if it were, I would expect the non-fluent user to assume that "in office" refers to sense 1 (since "in" is a spatial concept, that would certainly be my first guess). It seems particularly non-obvious that this refers only to sense 3 (i.e., that there is a key distinction between "in office" and "in the office"). It's also noteworthy that this collocates differently -- we say "in office as Governor" but "in the office of Governor".Keep. -- Visviva 02:05, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

I thought it was virtually the same as 3. I thought the weak point was that we don't have the right figurative sense of "in" and that the OneLook dictionaries I've looked at don't either. It is parallel to "in country" (vs. "in a country", "in the country"), "in position", "in arrears", "in house" (adverb), and probably many others, whose virtual in-ness is not well shown at [[in]]. Many of those phrases already have enwikt entries. DCDuring TALK 02:29, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Keep. It is a prepositional phrase. — This comment was unsigned. Algrif

Not among criteria for inclusion. We are scores (hundreds?) of thousands of entries short of having all the attestable ones and would be entering completely uncharted waters, since there is not even a specialised dictionary of such phrases. DCDuring TALK 12:31, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, sense 3 probably should be rewritten (it seems a bit too broad), but I don't think that would be enough. In general, when a particular phrase uniquely determines [obscure sense] + [obscure sense], I think it makes sense for us to give the phrase its own entry (that is the Egyptian pyramid test as I understand it). Otherwise, we would be putting the burden of comprehension on the user, which is a rather unreasonable thing for a dictionary to do. ... On that note, if this phrase is deleted, we need to make sure there are suitable examples of it in office. -- Visviva 12:46, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Prepositional phrases are recognised as having an idiomatic function and so are taught as a specific idiomatic area in English L2 courses. Furthermore, they deserve better recognition (IMHO). Wiktionary is the ideal place to develop a proto-specialised dictionary, by using the category. A quick flick through some of the entries already there should convince anyone of their importance. The existence of prepositional phrases was a key element for passing out of a paper bag (which I nominate for inclusion in the list of "Entries which survived RFD" BTW, but I don't know where to do that). And I still maintain that in office is a prepositional phrase, which makes it easier to understand and disambiguate, if it is accepted as such. -- ALGRIF talk 15:57, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm more of a strict constructionist on cfi. We should try to vote on changes/updates to cfi and ele from time to time, especially on bundles technical and low-controversy changes. I don't know whether "prepositional phrase" would be considered non-controversial. In any event, though some prepositional phrases have been deemed worthy of inclusion, that does not give all prepositional phrases a free pass. I have never thought of Wiktionary as a leader of lexicographic conceptual revolution. We are still influenced by NOR, I think. In any event it seems more a BP than an RfD discussion. DCDuring TALK 16:58, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Keep, but revise definition. In the US, we can have: an in office memo (more usually (deprecated template usage) in-office). The combination is used collectively as an adjective. --EncycloPetey 18:38, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Kept. May need attention per discussion here.—msh210℠ 19:46, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

building block of life

SoP.—msh210℠ 17:51, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

delete, unless we keep dated questionable cliches. DCDuring TALK 18:02, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Strong Keep. It's not SoP, it's idiomatic. There are no real blocks involved. Set phrase, widespread, longterm use.--Dmol 04:50, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Weak delete I think that building block needs to be expanded to handle more idiomatic uses, thus making this phrase SOP. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 05:07, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

delete - include idiomaticity at (deprecated template usage) building block. Same for the potential "building blocks of matter". Exactly what is considered the "building blocks of life" varies from author to author, and is spelled out explicitly for the reader rather than left for the reader to determine. --EncycloPetey 18:43, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

• Keep - I've heard "building block of life" with much greater frequency than "building block of matter". The "of life" phrase gets 400K+ Google hits (for singular and plural); "of matter" gets about one fourth as many (although they get similar numbers of Google Books hits). bd2412 T 18:58, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

  Yes, but its application varies wildly. Some authors say that certain molecules (proteins, e.g.) are the building blocks of life, while others say that the (deprecated template usage) cell is the basic building block of life. All of these are saying that pieces (the building blocks) are assembled. The idiomaticity is in the combination (deprecated template usage) building block. The full phrase "building block of life" has no specific meaning. A large number of google hits is meaningless in such a situation because it's sum of parts. I find 963,000 hits for best game ever, but that doesn't mean it deserves an entry. --EncycloPetey 19:01, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

  • I don't think it's that wild at all - the term clearly applies to whatever units, when assembled, can constitute life. The quibble is about the size of the units. bd2412 T 20:10, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

    You don't think a molecule and a cell are that different? But you've understood part of my point: the reference is to "whatever units", so the idiomaticity is in the (deprecated template usage) building block part of the phrase. Adding "of life" adds no idiomaticity that wasn't already present, and is merely an additional prepositional phrase clarifying the context of "whatever units" are intended. And I submit again: the full phrase "building block(s) of life" is never used without the author stating the identity of the building blocks. --EncycloPetey 20:18, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

    Okay, I did some quick empirical research. Despite a handful of outliers, the vast majority of book references to "building blocks of life" are not to cells, but specifically to amino acids and/or nucleotides. Of course, one could say that individual atoms, or even quarks are the "building blocks of life" because they are underlying structures of all life, but they are also the building blocks of rocks and stars and refrigerator lining. It is probably erroneous to refer to cells as building blocks of life anyway, since the vast majority of organisms are comprised of a single cell. bd2412 T 19:15, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

    Since when has the fact that something is erroneous stopped people from publishing it? :P Seriously, as someone trained in field biology, I continually come across books with useless titles like Our Native Birds, with no indication in the title or introduction telling you whose birds are being talked about. I get frustrated every time I see a book titled "Animals of [regional name]" that covers only the land vertebrates (or even just the mammals). I'll end the mini-rant here, and note that plenty of Google books hits show that cells are called the building blocks of life by multiple authors, even if it isn't the majority. Even my introductory biology texts on the shelf here say "all organisms are made of cells", which is true if you allow some organisms to be made of just one. --EncycloPetey 00:57, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

    Cells are the building blocks of cells? bd2412 T 04:03, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

[[building block]] appears in four big US OneLook dictionaries (AHD, RH, MW, Encarta). "Building block of life" does not even appear in any of the idiom or scientific references they carry. We are wasting time including and maintaining multi-word entries that few users will trouble to search for on Wiktionary. If someone starts typing in "building block of life" in our search box, they will get "building block". If they enter the long phrase of Google they will not get us, though it is a very commonly sought phrase. DCDuring TALK 19:46, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

We carry a lot of phrases that other dictionaries don't. bd2412 T 20:10, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Delete. As a high-frequency but sum-of-parts* collocation, this should be mentioned in the entry for building block, but should not get its own entry. * (based on evidence presented to date)-- Visviva 05:34, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Weak keep because of the different meanings for life. Is reproduction a building block of life? DAVilla

No, because "reproduction" is not a (deprecated template usage) building block. Building blocks are physical items. --EncycloPetey 00:51, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, except when they're not. —Ruakh_TALK 01:07, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

delete per EP --Hekaheka 23:13, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

I see six deletes (including one weak) and three "keep"s (including one strong and one weak), so I'm deleting.—msh210℠ 19:43, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

3.14R8

A pun on "pirate" (pi R 8). Nothing on Books, though the very recent one cited (part of an online conversation in a faddy Internet spinoff about ninjas w:Pirates versus Ninjas) is presumably real. On Google itself, ~100 matches but almost all are not real usages but things like user names on forums. The handful that seem like real usages seem to suggest that this isn't at all common and may even constitute a puzzling riddle, e.g. "have a great 3.14r8 (see if anyone else figures it) day!" Equinox 13:02, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Insufficiently precise - should be 3.1415926R8 at least - delete. SemperBlotto 16:17, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

I would keep 3.1415926 itslef on account of rounding error! DAVilla 19:35, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

• Delete - silly Παρατηρητής 14:47, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Seems an RFV issue to me, but I bow to consensus: deleted (with an "RFV" deletion reason, though, to encourage future addition with citations).—msh210℠ 19:47, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

ever since

• Moved from WT:RFV. DAVilla 19:32, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Is this worth having as a separate entry? It is an intensifier + since in each of its three PoS incarnations, afaict. Other dictionaries seem to have "ever" in usage examples at since. DCDuring TALK 19:23, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Move to RFD and/or delete.—msh210℠ 18:11, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree with DCDuring (talk • contribs), dictionaries do see to use "ever" in examples with since, as common practice. Cirt (talk) 07:09, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

I had put this on RfV to give this at least 30 days for someone to come up with citations that show a meaning for one or more of the three PoSes that was not essentially "since (intensified)". DCDuring TALK 16:14, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't see how it's intensified. Using just since in some cases seems just plain awkward. Keep regardless. DAVilla 01:16, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Which PoS are you referring too? I didn't think of any examples that seemed awkward without "ever". DCDuring TALK 02:03, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

The adverb particularly. Without ever it just sounds too formal. For the other two I'm not sure if it's an intensifier or something else. Saying "ever since" seems to establish a causal link moreso than just "since", which more or less establishes a timeline but does not hint that the two parts are more fundamentally related. I'm sure in some cases, though, it really is just an issue of intensification. Or is the relation I pointed out just another form of intensity? Anyways ever since as a conjunction runs off the tongue more easily at the start of a sentence. That at least seems like use without stressing anything. Also note that it distinguishes this meaning from the other definition of since as a conjuction. 67.9.175.207 08:39, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

truthiness

This a request to merge the two (edit:) modern senses. With only a couple of the citations independent of Colbert, no more than one definition could be supported. Sorry if I RFDed both as I'm not sure which is phrased more correctly. Seeing as the word is not used ironically in most if any of the citations, neither may be. DAVilla 16:39, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

It is broadening in its usage and is increasingly used without quotes or reference to colbert. The straight meaning might be "a quality of engendering a feeling of trust in a message or its communicator". News seems the best place to look. I doubt that even Obama can kill this term, which may mean it will be one of the few maven-endorsed Words of the Year that actually enters the language. DCDuring TALK 17:20, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Off-topic, but IMO this is a classic case where representative citations should be on the entry page and not in the Citations: ghetto. The senses are almost incomprehensible without illustration. -- Visviva 17:37, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

The only justification is that the entry is, more than most, a work in progress. The meaning of the term in the language is only gradually becoming settled. The entry may have been a bit premature. None of the other OneLook dictionaries has an actual entry, for example. DCDuring TALK 17:45, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, yeah, but we're better than them. Give us a couple years and we'll be looking at Random House and MW3 in the rear-view mirror. ... The fact that this is a work in progress, as well as a word in progress whose senses are still developing, only makes it more important that we show our work. (Thus endeth my hijacking of the RFD discussion.) -- Visviva 04:21, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

What I'm saying is that the word has been in intensive modern use for only three years and its new meaning is not settled, which is what makes it a difficult target for them and easier for us only because users have lower expectations of definitive, unchanging accuracy. DCDuring TALK 11:56, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Delete sense 2, unless a citation can be found in which "truthiness" (in the ironic modern sense) is attributed of a person. Merge the etymologies; reinventing the same word doesn't make it a new word, and in fact some modern post-Colbert use seems to be rediscovering the original "truthful" sense. -- Visviva 06:01, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, merge as per (deprecated template usage) embiggen. † ﴾^(u):Raifʻhār ^(t):Doremítzwr﴿ 01:24, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Good point. Perhaps we should start over under Etymology 1. We could possibly treat the colbert-inspired ironic usage as a usage note, because it may not really have been used consistently except to evoke his show. The usage note at Etymology 2 describes much of the usage as of a type that we would not accept for attestation. We should probably sort the citations by the presence of characteristics that make them less desirable for attestation (quotes, merely attributed to colbert, appearing with an explicit definition). As I understand it, it is the free-standing, unquoted, independent usage that marks the absorption of the word into the language. Such usage instances should be the focus of our definitional efforts. DCDuring TALK 11:56, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Truthiness was word of the year 2005 (Jan 2006 [30]) by the American Dialect Society. So it has a 2006 entry for Merriam-Webster [31]... and made national news (word & definition & source) [32]. Removing both senses and leaving none of the modern usage, I think, wouldn't be a good idea. It's usage in non-Colbert contexts can be seen [33][34] 76.66.195.159 12:14, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I meant to say that no more than one of the modern senses is supported by citation. Both were nominated only because I'm not sure which is more accurate, but I'm not trying to delete them both, just merge them. Certainly there are two etymologies. DAVilla 05:01, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Meh. Both "etymologies" are just truthy + -ness. If this has two etymologies, panarchy must have at least five. -- Visviva 09:43, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Went ahead and merged something, not sure if it's good or not. DAVilla 09:11, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, I still think that this (now the second half of sense 1) should be deleted. No evidence has yet been presented that anyone has ever attributed "truthiness" (in any modern sense) to a person. If it ever were attributed to a person, that would probably be a distinct sense, just as the senses of credibility and credulity are distinct. -- Visviva 09:43, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Quality of throws me off a bit. Please amend. I would if but how? DAVilla 07:42, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

advatar

Nothing on Google Books. On Google Groups, we have a few typos for avatar and a few puns (not, as far as I can tell, related to advertising), but there's basically nothing. Equinox 17:43, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

• Delete Παρατηρητής 14:46, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

altruistic filicide

I doubt that the two definitions (no citations) given are accurate. I believe that the accurate definition is murder of one's child for altruistic reasons (eg, for the good of one's other [and possible future] children). Speculating about the particular reasons in advance of those reasons become an inherent part of the phrase in usage is at best encylopedic, IMO. DCDuring TALK 19:28, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Comment. I think google books:"altruistic filicide" definitely supports sense #1, though it's not exactly the most common expression in the world (and many hits set off either the whole phrase, or just the word (deprecated template usage) altruistic, in quotation marks). That said, this might be encyclopedic entailment: people simply don't seem to murder their child for other people's good. (See e.g. this hit, which gives a classification of filicide by motive; its altruism category matches our sense #1, but none of the other categories would cover any other sort of altruistic motive. —Ruakh_TALK 20:49, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Speculation about motivation is one of the faults of the definition. Potential "beneficiaries" of a filicide might include a spouse, one's other living children, one's not-yet-born children, one's community (smothering the child whose noises might betray a group is the ethics-classroom case). None of these can be excluded from the basic meaning of the component words. I don't think there is usage that suggests that this term is usable without quotes, except in a way that is SoP. Incidentally, one can define altruism in terms of one's genes instead of one's self to get a more limited potential set of beneficiaries for "altruism". And BTW, fairy tales about evil step-parents seem to be true. An analysis of murders by parents of children showed that adopted children and step-children occurred at a rate 20-50 times higher than of "natural" children. DCDuring TALK 21:37, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Re: "Speculation about motivation is one of the faults of the definition": Well, that's the question, isn't it? If the term means sense 1, then it's not speculation about motivation, but rather an accurate description of what the term means (whether or not it's an accurate description of the actual motivation). —Ruakh_TALK 22:09, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

haxx0r

Leet. RJFJR 17:25, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

See also h4x0r, haxor, haxxor. IMO, the problem with the number-containing forms is that leetspeak isn't a "closed" language with particular spellings; you can play with any of the eligible letters in any word, putting a zero in place of any O, a four in place of any A, and so on. Trying to catalogue all possible forms in a dictionary would be a futile exercise in exponentiation. Incidentally, hax0r is commoner than haxx0r, but we don't have that "spelling" at all. Equinox 17:35, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

It may not be closed, but attested forms are certainly finite (even small) in number.—msh210℠ 17:41, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

I really really want to agree with you, but I think my desire to allow Middle English (which has the same problems) outweighs my desire to exclude 1337. —Ruakh_TALK 18:44, 16 December 2008 (UTC)e,

On a side note, Middle English might be subject to different standards than leet. Ancient Greek requires only a single citation to pass rfv, as it is such an ancient dead language. Middle English is certainly not quite as old as (most) Ancient Greek, but I wonder if a similar standard might be set for that (once someone starts working on it, that is). While this isn't really settled yet, I was kind of thinking anything older than 500 years would qualify for the....senior special. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 19:49, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

So what if it's leetspeak? Submit to RFV (where I think it will pass).—msh210℠ 17:41, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Incidentally, note that Google Groups now searches all sorts of fora, not just Usenet, so, if one wants to restrict to Usenet, he must check the option "search only Google Groups" and also specify group:*.* (I think). Perhaps {{google}} should be adjusted accordingly; I'll raise this at template talk:google.—msh210℠ 17:41, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

RFV. DAVilla 04:56, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

gadfly

Definition of horsefly appears to be a duplicate of previous. DAVilla 04:53, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

art exhibition

Definition suggests simple sum of parts. Equinox 14:15, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

• Delete (even WF thinks so) Παρατηρητής 14:45, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
• Delete per nomination.—msh210℠ 18:12, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

methionylglutaminylarginyltyrosylglutamylserylleucylphenylalanylal...serine

Sorry to be boring, but... Conrad.Irwin 18:56, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

This seems like a question for RFV, no? —Ruakh_TALK 19:39, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

I think so.—msh210℠ 22:24, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Delete. Nobody would seriously use this in writing. It seems to be the result of some kind of automated process for producing "words" from chemical formulae, which might work for shorter ones but is useless here. Equinox 22:08, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Delete or RFV if necessary. The entry predates the current CFI, which it clearly cannot pass; the very idea of this being used "in context to convey meaning" is absurd. We have not yet had the Big Discussion about chemical nomenclature, but I can't imagine those issues being resolved in a way that makes entries like this acceptable. -- Visviva 02:04, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Delete per msh210 and Visviva. If someone is really set on finding cites for this one, by all means go ahead with it, but I think it a priori futile, and thus a move to rfv would be simply delaying the inevitable. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 02:14, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Delete. Nobody uses such names other than for very short peptides. SemperBlotto 08:36, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

• Delete Παρατηρητής 14:44, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
• Delete It has wormed its way into only 2 other sites ; www.haikudojo.com and allwords.com, the latter giving what seems to be an almost tongue-in-cheek Italian translation. Anyway, can someone tell me what the fuck is going on here:

The following appeared when I tried to go to google books results for this ridiculous thing

Bad Request

Your client has issued a malformed or illegal request. 50 Xylophone Players talk 12:45, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

It looks like Google Book Search is using HTTP 400 Bad Request as a catch-all client error, rather than sending an HTTP 414 Request-URI Too Long. (See §10.4 of RFC 2616.) —Ruakh_TALK 16:31, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

civilization

"Communal understanding" sense. The example given seems to apply to sense 1, and I'm having a hard time thinking of a more suitable one. -- Visviva 02:27, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Agree. Also senses #5 and #6 could be combined. --Hekaheka 22:28, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, I had split 5 and 6 per the anon's comment on the talk page, which I found persuasive ... one can use "civilization" to refer to sophisticated modern life, without preferring it ("I don't much care for civilization"), but one can also use "civilization" to refer to a particular society without regard to its level of sophistication ("I'm so glad to get away from the city and back to civilization"). I don't see any way to cover both of these under a single definition. -- Visviva 02:10, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Adjusted. The latter is used sarcastically to say that another group is not part of civilized society, or I guess literally if one really believes that another society does not have civilized rules. DAVilla 08:55, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Deleted. And I also deleted the sense of "countries" since Western civilization is not the members of NATO or the G8 summit. DAVilla 08:55, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Much better, thanks; that needed someone with fresh eyes. BTW, I have added another sense just now ("the quality of being civilized"), which I assume to be non-controversial. -- Visviva 09:47, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Before this change is buried it needs to be fully resolved by merging some of the translations and marking most as TTBC. 72.177.113.91 07:48, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

True... but before we do that, let's make sure we really want to erase the "stage" vs. "system" distinction. These do seem kind of distinct, though I'm not sure if/how to best separate them. -- Visviva 11:01, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

YLSer

Rather scant evidence of usage even on the Web; certainly nothing in Books or Groups. I have to wonder whether the creator would have felt it worth creating if not for the Christmas game (to follow ammoniumyls). Equinox 17:59, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

You're quite right in that I wouldn't have created it if not for WT:FUN. There are a handful of questionable entries in WT:FUN. However, with 3 decent hits on Google Groups this terms could just squeeze in. --Jackofclubs 13:46, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

All three are on user-created Google groups, not Usenet groups. Can we use those as "permanent sources", when the groups can be deleted at the creator's whim? Equinox 13:51, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

If they can be, then I'd say no. As a side note, we don't need permanent sources (do such exist?) but merely durably archived ones.—msh210℠ 19:16, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

RFV.—msh210℠ 19:16, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

War on Terrorism

POV; SoP. Same likely life and dictionary value as war on poverty, War on Poverty, war on drugs, etc. DCDuring TALK 20:13, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Delete. I don't think the lifetime is necessarily a factor, but in my view it's encyclopaedic. Equinox 22:23, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Delete. Bogorm 17:45, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Keep (and submit to RFV, I suppose). It's not SOP, as it refers to a specific war on terrorism, not any old war on terrorism (and also not the general war on terrorism that includes all specific wars on terrorism).—msh210℠ 19:13, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Keep - Idiom, same as: World War One, World War Two, World War III, Cold War, Falklands War WritersCramp 17:32, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Keep per Msh, although I wish this logic would have applied to Vietnam War. Any chance we could revisit that vote? DAVilla 07:28, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

The only issue I would have with using the generic "Vietnam War" is which one? Vietnam has had many many wars! Reference WritersCramp 22:47, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

War on Terror

Same as above. DCDuring TALK 20:16, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Delete as for the one above. Equinox 22:24, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Delete. Idem.Bogorm 17:46, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Keep per my comments on War on Terrorism.—msh210℠ 19:13, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Keep - Idiom, same as: World War One, World War Two, World War III, Cold War, Falklands War WritersCramp 17:32, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Not exactly the same, because those are accepted names for wars in history. This isn't a specific war (it's a policy) and the term often has overtones of propaganda. Equinox 08:02, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Keep and stronger than above. This is not set to stop terror but terrorism. DAVilla 07:30, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

hardware switch

Any switch that controls, or comprises, hardware. Sum of parts, just like software program would be. Equinox 22:22, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

It's almost a backronym, like acoustic guitar, but not quite. Weak delete. DAVilla 05:53, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Delete, sum of parts. Bogorm 17:47, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

• Delete Παρατηρητής 14:43, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

[[ω]

I can see a case for having a Greek entry for this, as it is a letter in Greek. But the English sense is identical to the first translingual sense, which, surely, is the point of having translingual entries. — Paul G 15:46, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Agree. In fact, I also think that the numeral bits should be removed from the translingual entry as well, as those meanings are certainly not translingual, but are limited to Greek and Ancient Greek. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 16:04, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

• Delete English part only. Παρατηρητής 14:42, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

English section deleted. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 20:22, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

new (Redundant senses)

There are a few overlaps in new.

Sense 5, - in original condition; pristine; not previously worn or used - is the same as sense 1, - Recently made, or created.

And sense 10, - Recently arrived or appeared - is the same as sense 9, - Strange, unfamiliar or not previously known.

Even the examples given could be interchanged. --Dmol 23:05, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't find either redundant. Cnsider:

1. "I wrecked my new car, a 2009 Prius." It is still considered recently made, but it is no longer in pristine condition.
2. "Hilary Clinton was the new Senator from New York in 2005." She was newly arrived in New York and newly elected, but not especially strange for a politician and not unfamiliar to most Americans over ten years of age. DCDuring Holiday Greetings! 00:18, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

I wrote a first page in my blank notebook. It was blank before I wrote in it, just as the car was in pristine condition before it was wrecked. Or if it wasn't this is covered by sense 3, my "current" car.

Merge 1 and 5, keep the other. DAVilla 08:26, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Delete sense 5, unless cited. Not redundant, but dubious nonetheless; IMX we normally use "like new" or "mint condition" for this, not just "new". A quick b.g.c. search for "still new after" is not encouraging; the relevant hits seem mostly to be synonymous with "fresh"/"unfamiliar". It's possible that a more finely-targeted search would find something, but I have my doubts. -- Visviva 10:00, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Popular Mechanics‎ - Page 39 - Jul 1989 - Vol. 166, No. 7 - 128 pages

I wouldn't ask my new car or truck to do sustained high speeds, tow a heavy trailer or idle for extended periods until it has several thousand miles clocked

It can still be new after several thousand miles. The towing is not what makes it other than new. I'm surprised that this does not seem to be perceived as "widespread use". DCDuring Holiday Greetings! 21:11, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Keep; as per DCD. The tagged senses are distinct and do not mean the same thing as any other senses. --EncycloPetey 20:06, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

computer chess

Certainly a noteworthy topic in an encyclopaedia, but here I think it's a sum of parts. Compare computer checkers, computer darts, computer draughts, etc. Equinox 06:59, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Comment: Certainly enough citations on Google and "Google Scholar" to justify it being a word that should be in a dictionary:

Google Results 1 - 100 of about 248,000 for "computer chess". (0.40 seconds)

Google Scholar Results 1 - 100 of about 3,110 for "computer chess". (0.51 seconds)

WritersCramp 18:52, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

These statistics are irrelevant. It should be kept because it is idiomatic, as required in WT:CFI. Per Visviva, I have not been able to find any uses of "computer chess" to mean a computer platform on which two people play each other. Instead there is a strong current the other way, where e.g. computer chess is sometimes contrasted with online chess. DAVilla 08:13, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

• Strong Keep: Computer Chess is a word used around the world for describing a particular game. It is not a "computer" and it is not "chess" it is "computer chess". Here are some interesting links to this word:

Tournaments: World Computer Chess Championship

Books: Computer Chess ISBN 9780713482072

Software: Computer Chess software

Internet: Online Computer Chess Game

Webboards: Computer Chess Club

History: Bill Wall: Computer chess history Chessbase: History of computer chess History of computer chess

The list of ways the word "computer chess" is used in the world goes on and on. WritersCramp 01:27, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

It is chess played on a computer system. I'm not arguing that you can't find a million Web pages that discuss it as a topic. You can also find a million pages discussing, say, "militant feminism", but that doesn't mean it's not the sum of militant and feminism. Equinox 02:26, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

That's what I expected, but actually the entry defines this (correctly, it seems) as chess played by a computer system. This is different from computer darts or computer poker, where people play the game by means of a computer; it would be more similar to something like robot darts. -- Visviva 05:04, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Okay, that's interesting. The entry has been changing at a phenomenal rate, so I don't know whether I read the same thing you did, but if there's reasonable evidence for "computer chess" only being chess where the computer makes moves, we have something more than SOP. I believe that if two people play chess with each other and merely use the computer to display the board and track moves (e.g. Yahoo Chess on the Internet), that is still "computer chess". Do you disagree? Equinox 21:13, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Comment: computer chess is the same as many entries, such as, Islamic fascist, political system, Christmas tree and the list goes on and on! WritersCramp 02:36, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, no. Not every tree that happens to exist at Christmas time is a Christmas tree. Political system is sum of parts and probably shouldn't be in Wiktionary either, yes. Islamic fascist is under discussion; see requests for verification. But any computer playing chess constitutes computer chess. Equinox 02:48, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Comment: Hello, how do you explain away the many other words in Wiktionary: computer game, video game, arcade game, online game, mobile game, electronic game, computational linguistics, computer graphics, computer security and there are many others... WritersCramp 14:46, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Stop editing my comments please, WritersCramp. I explain them away by saying that either they aren't sums of parts (a game where you had to collect videotapes wouldn't be a video game, etc.) and also that Wiktionary has some erroneous entries that shouldn't be there. Otherwise why would we have RFV/RFD pages at all? Equinox 19:56, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Comment: Stop editing my user page please, Equinox. Or the alternative, is your opinion is incorrect. Commercial dictionaries go by citations, not by 'sum of parts', there are plenty of citations for "computer chess" to be considered a word in Wiktionary. My final words on the matter. WritersCramp 20:02, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Uh-huh. Rather petty, when you know very well I edited the link on your page because moving a Wiktionary entry prompts you to fix links to the moved page. Equinox 21:28, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Delete SOP -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 04:47, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Keep, fried egg. I would have expected "computer chess" to include any use of a computer to play chess, but in fact it is used by the World Computer Chess Championship etc. to refer specifically to computers playing chess without human guidance. -- Visviva 05:04, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Keep clearly not the most obvious definition, and a widespread term.Wolfkeeper 22:18, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Keep, computer game. Mutante 11:46, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Keep per Visviva and DAVilla. —Ruakh_TALK 05:33, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Keep I suppose - but the definition is a little strange? Παρατηρητής 14:40, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Keep per Visviva assuming the definition is correct. I wouldn't have thought so.—msh210℠ 19:09, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

go apeshit

Synonymous with go postal, go crazy. Go + adjective structure wouldn't seem to warrant an entry. Looking up the adjective should get users what they want. DCDuring Holiday Greetings! 18:34, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

I think I agree with you. I immediately thought of go ape (where ape, unlike apeshit, is not used without go) — but, according to our entry at ape, it can be used that way ("we were ape" in an example sentence, albeit a fabricated one). In any case, if this goes, go ape should go as well. Equinox 21:08, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure I agree with myself on this either. There is currently a discussion about off the deep end/go off the deep end (TR?). I'm thinking that "go" + new adjective/sense leads to free-standing new adjective sense, leads to gradable/comparable adjective sense, but that the "go" form may remain very common, possibly overwhelmingly so ("go ballistic", "go postal", go/get medieval). DCDuring Holiday Greetings! 21:20, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Trang Chính

A redirect to the Main page of the Vietnamese Wiktionary? How odd. Doesn't really seem like something we really want. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 09:59, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

• Yes - delete. Παρατηρητής 14:39, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
• Delete speedily.—msh210℠ 19:06, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

  Deleted -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 01:56, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

father's

Any reason why this particular possessive is kept? --Jackofclubs 13:42, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

• Keep - this use of the apostrophe is confusing for us johnny-foreigners. Παρατηρητής 14:38, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

No reason to keep that a johnny-foreigner-me can see. --Duncan 14:56, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Delete; neither the possessive nor the contraction is a special case. Equinox 15:11, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Delete and modify adjacent words' {{rank}} calls to refer to father{{!}}father's rather than to father's. (That will work, right?)—msh210℠ 19:03, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Probable Delete, but can anyone explain why we accept simple plurals (e.g. fathers) but not simple possessives? SemperBlotto 08:59, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

See the pertinent section of the CFI, as well as the explanation therefor. The technical argument is that the possessive “word chunks” (<’s> usually, but <’> after some terminal esses (usually sounded as [z])) are not suffixes but rather enclitics, added to mark the possessive of an entire noun phrase, not just a single word in it, and so, therefore, there is no “word” to speak of when we speak of the coöccurrence of (deprecated template usage) father + (deprecated template usage) ’s as ^ʀ(deprecated template usage) father’s. † ﴾^(u):Raifʻhār ^(t):Doremítzwr﴿ 14:06, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

I would say because a plural is a "word in itself" (lexeme or something?) and may be irregular (children, cacti) or non-existent (arguably rice), whereas the possessive suffix is pretty much standard and can be tacked onto anything. For me it's a similar argument to that against the French s'en, m'a, etc. we had a while ago (though few enough agreed with me on that!). Equinox 11:21, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Deleted. DAVilla 07:13, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

liberation army

SoP.—msh210℠ 20:04, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Delete. I think this is only noteworthy in the names of specific armies, and those are for Wikipedia. Equinox 20:50, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Delete as sum of parts, only noteworthy as part of name (capitalised), to follow on from an abreviation such as INLA--Dmol 01:53, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Not sure how this one should go just yet. Lots of Google Book hits for "a liberation army" so it's "noteworthy" even apart from proper names. There could be some credibility to keeping it in that the name of an army is supposed to convey the literal meaning, but the effect of that is the type of army which is formed, one that contrasts with a mercantile army. Could use some more heads on this. DAVilla 07:10, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

The usage note makes an important point. Useful article, keep. —Stephen 05:59, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

below the poverty line

SOP? below the poverty line Equinox 20:23, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Delete per nomination.—msh210℠ 20:28, 30 December 2008 (UTC)—msh210℠ 19:38, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Delete, per nom.--Dmol 01:51, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Redirect to poverty line or delete. DAVilla 06:50, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Delete or redirect per DAVilla.—msh210℠ 19:38, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

retro trend

Sum of parts: any trend that is retro. Equinox 20:48, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Delete per nomination.—msh210℠ 17:52, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Doesn't seem like a set phrase to me. Hesitant delete. DAVilla 06:51, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

January 2009

wedding anniversary

SoP.—msh210℠ 20:54, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Delete. Equinox 04:34, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Weak delete. The syntax here is funky; I'd say that "the anniversary of his wedding" → "his wedding anniversary", but not "the anniversary of his birth" → *"his birth anniversary", nor "the anniversary of his graduation" → *"his graduation anniversary". ("His birth anniversary" gets a heck of a lot of Ghits; it looks like it might be valid Indian English, but not U.S. or U.K. English.) So, part of me thinks this might be a fixed expression. On the other hand, I think the meaning is quite clear, and we don't want to include every collocation of two English nouns. —Ruakh_TALK 05:50, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Keep because of the same reason Ruakh gave and also because it is one of the definitions of anniversary itself. DAVilla 06:57, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Delete as sum of parts; it's simply a noun with an attributive noun specifying the primary noun's nature. I don't follow DAVilla's logic. One of the definitions of (deprecated template usage) drum is "The encircling wall that supports a dome or cupola", but that doesn't mean we should have an entry for The encircling wall that supports a dome or cupola. The fact that a phrase is used as a definition does not entitle it to an entry of its own. --EncycloPetey 23:57, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

federal government

Sum of parts? Equinox 10:04, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Keep. Has a specific meaning in the U.S. which is almost proper, and not any longer federal. DAVilla 06:39, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Okay. Could you please change the definition to reflect this specific US meaning? Equinox 08:00, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Keep; the second (US) definition has been added, and the first defn. is therefore necessary to avoid bias towards the US-specific one. --EncycloPetey 23:59, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Looks okay. Closing RFV. Equinox 16:22, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

機巧童子ウルティモ

Name of a specific manga series. 50 Xylophone Players talk 12:34, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Delete. Not an encyclopaedia. Equinox 08:00, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

I think these are popular with a lot of young people. Entry is concise. Keep. —Stephen 05:57, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Judging from the 102 Google hits, this is either misspelled or not very popular. -- Visviva 12:31, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Delete per WT:CFI#Names of specific entities. -- Visviva 12:31, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

adolescentilism

request for deletion after seeing AfD on en. wiki, not a word/neologism/misspelling either way (checked define: in google, dictionary.com, and one AfD participant checked two print dictionaries). (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Adolescentilism#Adolescentilism) Noian 05:59, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Seems to get a handful of Google Book hits, RFV. DAVilla 06:54, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Agree, not a hoax but seemingly just a dictionary word: frequently defined but never used. [35] -- Visviva 06:56, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

International Phonetic Association

Encyclopedic. -- Visviva 10:47, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

The definition doesn’t look encyclopedic to me. Keep. —Stephen 05:54, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Delete - The content is encyclopedic (belongs in an encyclopedia). We don't list organisations or "define" their meanings. This fails CFI by analogy with being the name of a specific person. This is the name of a specific organisation. --EncycloPetey 17:08, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Delete per EP. —Ruakh_TALK 18:02, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

I can't imagine this will satisfy the CFI of specific entities. If it does, great. Otherwise, delete.—msh210℠ 21:18, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

in two shakes of a lamb's tale

Do we really need this? --Hekaheka 11:38, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, I was surprised that this pointed to in two shakes rather than in a shake of a lamb's tail, which is how I've always heard the phrase. IMO there is more here than meets the eye. -- Visviva 11:53, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

I have only ever heard the "two shakes" form. I don't think we need the spelling error (nothing to do with "Lamb's Tales from Shakespeare" I assume). SemperBlotto 11:57, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Er, right, I missed that somehow (I thought the redirect was just about the funky apostrophe). Delete speedily (as I will do in a day or so if there are no objections.) -- Visviva 12:11, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Deleted. —Ruakh_TALK 23:32, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

woollyback

It's unattested rubbish resulting from nothing more than a rubbish Wikipedia article built by editors who haven't read a dictionary (see w:Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Woollyback). The correct spelling, and the attested meaning (as documented in other dictionaries, no less), is woolly back. And that's how one finds it spelled in the wild. (People use this spelling as a screen name. But when used in running prose as an ordinary phrase, the two word phrase is the spelling that one will find.) Uncle G 23:21, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

keep Cursory examination of Google Groups shows this abundantly present there in approximately the defined sense. This seems like it ought to be an alternative spelling if not the primary. There might be some merger of content onto the primary page. Someone from the UK should do it though. DCDuring Holiday Greetings! 23:52, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

I suggest fewer cursory examinations and more thorough ones. As I wrote, you'll find that the people using it actually write woolly back, as I said, with this only occurring as a pseudonym. The first page alone of Google Groups results contains "woolly back" several times, in boldface even. ☺ The second result on that list contains "woollyback", true, but as someone's pseudonym. The second page of results is composed entirely of usages as a pseudonym ("wollyback is offline."), indeed.

This is almost certainly because the people writing know how to spell, or have looked this up in a dictionary. As I noted in the edit summary, woolly back is how Partridge's dictionary lists it. Uncle G 00:30, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

It wasn't that cursory. This Google Groups search is needed to separate the two spellings. It seems to provide examples sufficient for attestation. I would not be surprised if woolly back was the main entry. We are governed by what is attestable and only influenced by what other dictionaries do. DCDuring Holiday Greetings! 00:42, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Keep in some form, per DCDuring. The spaced or hyphenated spelling is much more common on Google Books and Google News, but much less common on Google Groups SFAICT. —Ruakh_TALK 02:20, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

The term is in common use, but spelling is not a Scouser's strong point! Nevertheless, I was amazed to find the main entries at the American spelling. Has the transatlantic trade influenced Liverpool (UK) to this extent? Dbfirs 09:35, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

melt into

This doesn't seem like a real phrasal verb to me and there aren't any objective criteria for determining such either, afaict. DCDuring Holiday Greetings! 00:01, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree, it's not a phrasal verb. The "into" is a preposition that takes an object, or else is an adverb when the object is unstated. There's a difference between "The blue melted into the purple" and "The child ate up the information." In the first case, the prepositional phrase makes sense as a prepositional phrase. The latter sentence, which has a phrasal verb, cannot be parsed as having a prepositional phrase "up the information". Likewise, one can say "The child ate the information up," but one cannot say "The blue melted the purple into." --EncycloPetey 00:08, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, EP. That helps. But, I get the feeling that what you describe would be a sufficient condition for "phrasal-verbity", but not a necessary one. Am I wrong? Should I just lie down until that feeling goes away? DCDuring Holiday Greetings! 18:54, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Delete because melt into doesn't suggest anything that melt + into doesn't. Equinox 00:31, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Move sense 2 to RFV; if it passes, then keep. I know of no other intransitive use of (deprecated template usage) into — the intransitive counterpart is always (deprecated template usage) in — I find it really hard to believe that are speakers for whom "the ice melted into" means "the ice melted", but if there are, then (deprecated template usage) melt into certainly warrants coverage.

If sense 2 fails RFV, then weak keep, because there are still idiomatic senses, like in this quotation (via google books:"melted into a chair"):

• 2004, Julia London, Highlander Unbound, Simon and Schuster, ISBN 978-0-7434-8868-6, page 122:

  Ellen pushed away from the door, drifted toward the couch, smiling, and melted into a chair, burrowing deep into the cushions, hugging herself as she thought of the bold man who had just left her sitting room.

As you say, it's not a phrasal verb, but it still seems like an idiom.

—Ruakh_TALK 00:45, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

I would say the idiom is in (deprecated template usage) melt, not in "melted into", since she could have "melted from fatigue". --EncycloPetey 01:01, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

It seems that way to me. There are lots of varieties of figurative melting, most of which seem to occur either with or without prepositions, let alone with "into". One could "melt" "over the arm of the chair", "onto the floor", "under the blankets", "away from the advancing forces". More troubling to the RfD is "melt into" in a sense of "become". "In a moment, the brave soldier melted into quivering protoplasm." This would seem to possibly be a copula, albeit with a semantically limited range. "Brittle melted into gooey." DCDuring Holiday Greetings! 18:54, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Not a copula, since it requires a preposition. I don't see this as any different from "The company closed as a successful experiment." It is the preposition (deprecated template usage) into that carries the sense "producing, becoming", which is already given in that entry. --EncycloPetey 21:11, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

In the second example the putative preposition "into" was followed by an adjective, which is why I thought it was possible that it was a copula. One would have to infer a noun that was "understood" (a word from grammar classes long ago) or that "gooey" was functioning as noun. I'd be surprised if there were no scholarly work on the concept of "phrasal copulae". ;-)) DCDuring Holiday Greetings! 23:36, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

But there are plenty of examples of adjectives functioning substantively, and it's easy to fabricate examples: "The rich turned into the poor." "The happy bled into the sad." "Light dimmed into dark." In all of these situations, one quality is transforming or grading (deprecated template usage) into another. By definition, it's not a copula if there is a conjunctive word in addition to the putative copula. --EncycloPetey 23:46, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

It is not as easy to fabricate examples with bare adjectives, which would seem to be the minimal requirement for a copula. I was careful enough to avoid any determiner before "gooey". I'm not trying to be difficult: I just want to make sure that I've pushed this as far as it can go or have somebody buy me a really good English grammar (either cgel or the previous best one) to shut me up or raise my quality of discourse. DCDuring Holiday Greetings! 00:32, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

There is nothing about a copula that requires a bare adjective, or any adjective at all. A copula can work with any subject complement, whether adjective, noun, noun phrase, or any nominative compound construction. --EncycloPetey 04:35, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes, but the bare adjective test is a potential test for discriminating. A bare adjective cannot be a substantive, can it? A preposition cannot "take" a non-substantive, can it? DCDuring Holiday Greetings! 12:05, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

In fact, a bare adjective can be substantive: "Meek wins." And a preposition can take a non-substantive (sort of). However, the prepositional object becomes a substantive automatically, in every case I can conceive: "She wrote the book on clean." ... even when the object is an adjective. --EncycloPetey 19:57, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree. NOT a phrasal verb, for all the above reasons. The definition should be at melt. -- ALGRIF talk 18:57, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

make clear

Same as above. DCDuring Holiday Greetings! 00:07, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Delete the transitive sense; it's just making something clear (SoP), no better than make unhappy or make worthwhile. I don't understand the intransitive one (is it an error?). Equinox 00:39, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

It seemed erroneous to me but English often surprises me. I put in the intransitive tag to clarify and distinguish. If you can suss out some other reading, good on ya. DCDuring Holiday Greetings! 11:01, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

So sussed. :-)   —Ruakh_TALK 14:45, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Merge into clear. (Specifically, make clear distinguishes two very different senses of (deprecated template usage) clear that clear lumps together very vaguely as sense #5.) —Ruakh_TALK 14:45, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

mesh with

Same as above. DCDuring Holiday Greetings! 00:09, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Delete because mesh with doesn't suggest anything that mesh + with doesn't. Equinox 00:31, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

cyberhole

Press citation is from 2001. Doesn't appear to have been used in any significant way since then. Protologism? Equinox 01:07, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Now cited. Shouldn't this have been on RFV? -- Visviva 13:19, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

mainstream media

Sum of the parts (deprecated template usage) mainstream + (deprecated template usage) media. --EncycloPetey 21:06, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

The definitions given don't seem quite right, but this is used in the blogosphere in a way that I would consider non-SOP. Fox News, for example, is part of the MSM, but it is hardly mainstream. -- Visviva 13:56, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

google:"fox news" "mainstream media" suggests that some speakers consider Fox News to be MSM, while others do not. Notably, Fox News itself does not seem to consider itself MSM: <http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2008/05/28/fox-news-blames-mainstream-media-for-recession/>. This suggests to me that "the mainstream media" means basically what its parts suggest: parts of "the media" that are "mainstream", for some value of "the media" (newsmedia, entertainment media, etc. — but not so much novels, academic journals, etc.) and some value of "mainstream". —Ruakh_TALK 22:49, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

The sense that I'm thinking of is basically synonymous with "corporate media," i.e. media outlets in which access is controlled by corporate gatekeepers (thus, it would include a blog run by Fox or MSNBC, but not an independent blog with identical content and viewpoint). This does not mesh with any sense of mainstream that we have. Unfortunately, while this would be easy to cite in non-durable media, it is difficult to find in the other kind. I suspect Kos's book would be good for a cite, but I just lost my copy in the bathroom of a Costco (long story), and it's not searchable on Amazon or b.g.c. Will poke around a bit. -- Visviva 01:46, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

delete. There may be subculture-specific meanings, but I think they are beyond what a dictionary can readily covey. For example, "mainstream media" is certainly not usually pejorative in its use, except among those who don't like mainstream media. In any event, most of the meaning is in the components. DCDuring Holiday Greetings! 15:47, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Delete per DCDuring. First sense is SoP; second sense is the same SoP with a particular subcultural sneer, like "Oh, ew, he listens to mainstream music". Equinox 16:17, 12 January 2009 (UTC)