Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Royalty and Nobility

What is going on with article titles?

I know we had this massive discussion, but that, I think, ended with the initiator pulling out and resulted in nothing. Now we have articles being moved left, right and centre, and quite frankly, I know a lot of editors, including myself I will admit, are tired of seeing articles break convention and removing consistency on Wikipedia. Why do Margrethe II and Frederik X not have the "of Denmark", but Frederick VIII of Denmark and Christian IX of Denmark do? Why does every single Dutch monarch have "of the Netherlands", even though many of them do not have the same name as any other monarch? Why should Nicholas II of Russia be moved to "Nicholas II" because he is the primary topic, even though that would make that article completely inconsistent with all other Russian monarchs articles? It is clear that monarchs without the "of {country}" are monarchs that have ruled in the past 200 or so years, so isn't this bias from Wikipedia, favouring the present? On Wikipedia, it used to be customary for all monarchs' articles to have "of {country}" (unless of course there is an alternate common name like Charlemagne or Alexander the Great). British monarchs were always an exception and to me that seems fair enough since this is the English Wikipedia and they are going to be of most interest to English-reading viewers. I am bringing this to light because I think it is time that we have a proper discussion. I am not calling for an RFC (not yet, at least) nor for an argument, just for a simple discussion so we can commence talks. - Therealscorp1an (talk) 23:12, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

I guess it depends. So if you are living in Denmark you might consider Queen Margrethe as "Margrethe II" only using the number to differentiate but maybe for those living outside of Denmark they might use "Margrethe II of Denmark", to differentiate from other world royals. The point is, if you are living in said country, maybe there is no need to us the "of Country", because you are already in that country. I propose all English translated pages use the "of Country" designation. However, this would be difficult for monarchs of multiple countries (e.g. the UK and Commonwealth monarchs). GrandDukeMarcelo (talk) 21:00, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose further discussion of this topic - As the initiator of the RfC that is mentioned in the original post, I would like to say the following both to share my experiences with this matter and give a "friendly warning" to other users.

As a human being, I personally agree with what is being expressed. Yes, it is frustrating that not every Wikipedia article on European monarchs follow the same format. But as a Wikipedian, I must respectfully disagree with trying to go back to the (Name) of (Country) format across the board. As noted on WP:COI, Wikipedians must place the interests of the encyclopedia and its readers above personal concerns. And as frustrating as the RfC outcome that started this recent tidal wave on retitling European sovereigns' articles may be, it was a reflection of WP:CONSENSUS, which is the core of how decisions should be made on Wikipedia.

Furthermore, concerning the proper discussion that is recommended in the original post, I have already started two of these. They did not change the consensus of the community.

Finally, I would like to note that one move discussion each on the Peter Krešimir IV and Ferdinand VI articles were subject to a move review, where the decision to move away from the (Name) of (country) format was upheld.

Now, if after reading this post, a fellow user would still like to start another RfC or other Wikipedia-wide discussion on the titling matter, you are welcome to do so. But expect strong opposition from the community, including from myself. AndrewPeterT (talk) (contribs) 17:14, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

The change made at WP:NCROY (via RFC) is the cause for all these 'monarch' pages ending up inconsistent, even with monarchs of the same country. GoodDay (talk) 17:20, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

I have called for a revision of the RFC at WT:NCROY. The RFC was narrowly carried by a handful of royal enthusiasts who happen to be watching the NCROY page. The wider Wikipedia community did not participate in it and have been surprised and strenuously opposed it at individual RMs. It is precisely the concern for readers that is driving widespread opposition to this change. They see this change as detrimental to readers. So it definitely needs to be discussed, as this change seems to be rammed through by the interests of a few editors against the wider Wikipedia community and against the interests of readers.

The closure at Ferdinand VII did not endorse the change but only upheld the NCROY policy qua policy rather than going RM by RM. They expressed concern that the RFC did not reflect consensus and recommended the RFC should be revisited. So I have brought it up at NCROY.

Supporters of the change should welcome discussion, as it gives them a chance to explain how their preferred title shortening improves Wikipedia and is supposed to be helpful to readers. Because that is currently not obvious to the rest of us.

I am not sure where the correct location for a new RFC should be, but would like to ensure a new RFC discussion would draw in a wider audience to better evaluate where consensus actually lies. Walrasiad (talk) 05:25, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Are you still seeing this? I hadn’t been tracking, but my impression is also that the massive discussion you mention about how (or if) to actually change titles was stopped. So some folks perhaps took the preceding RFC to change guidance, resulting in a 14 for vs 8 against, and went into random RMs. But perhaps it’s just showing that RFC had not captured consensus, and/or that as a guideline it should sometimes be ignored. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 06:08, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Was Constantine, emperor of Russia?

An editor seems to believe that Grand Duke Konstantin Pavlovich of Russia was Emperor of Russia from 1-26 December 1825. Historians (and Konstantin's 1823 renounciation) says otherwise. See Konstantin's bio page & List of Russian monarchs, etc. GoodDay (talk) 07:08, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Notification of discussion here

I am just notifying editors of this discussion here, which may be of interest to this WikiProject. - Therealscorp1an (talk) 08:26, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Zog I of Albania#Requested move 14 March 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Zog I of Albania#Requested move 14 March 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Векочел (talk) 01:23, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Otto II, Holy Roman Emperor#Requested move 27 February 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Otto II, Holy Roman Emperor#Requested move 27 February 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Векочел (talk) 14:45, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Swedish Royal children

I have noticed that all the children of the Prince and Princess of all Royal families in Europe have their own articles. While the articles on the children of Princess Madeleine, Duchess of Hälsingland and Gästrikland and Prince Carl Philip, Duke of Värmland have all in AfDs in the part been redirected to their parents articles. Why? And for consistency I propose that we re-create their articles as well. BabbaQ (talk) 07:47, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Probably because of WP:INHERIT and WP:INVALIDBIO. "Consistency" is not desirable in this. It should be determined case-by-case. DeCausa (talk) 08:52, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Pharnavaz I of Iberia#Requested move 6 February 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Pharnavaz I of Iberia#Requested move 6 February 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. RodRabelo7 (talk) 00:42, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Isabella I of Castile#Requested move 29 February 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Isabella I of Castile#Requested move 29 February 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Векочел (talk) 13:10, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Redirects converted back to articles

I noticed that Princess Mathilde of Schönburg-Waldenburg, Princess Augusta of Schwarzburg-Sondershausen, and Theodora of Hesse-Darmstadt which each had AFDs that agreed on turning them into redirects as seen here, here, and here, had them turned back into articles that are more or less article to their previous versions. 98.228.137.44 (talk) 00:47, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for letting us know. I have redirected again and warned the editor. DrKay (talk) 07:10, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Mark Phillips#Requested move 27 March 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Mark Phillips#Requested move 27 March 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 07:46, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:Catherine, Princess of Wales § Simplicity and concision

 You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Catherine, Princess of Wales § Simplicity and concision. Aaron Liu (talk) 12:52, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Backlog of requested moves

Several of the requested moves listed on the main page have been open for several months. 98.228.137.44 (talk) 03:40, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Indeed. See this AN thread. Rosbif73 (talk) 06:39, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Sarukhan, Bey of Magnesia#Requested move 9 March 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Sarukhan, Bey of Magnesia#Requested move 9 March 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. ASUKITE 14:22, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Template:Hanoverian princes

Editors are invited to contribute to the discussion at Template talk:Hanoverian princes to decide whether all princes born after March 1914 should be removed from the template, and that similar edits should be made at other navboxes. DrKay (talk) 16:44, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

The question is not, whether individuals born after March 1914 should be removed. The question is, whether people should be added to the template, when even very specific sources like Lines of Succession or Burke's Royal Families of the World does not support the claim that those individuals are to be titled as Prince of Hanover. There is consensus (at least from my point of view), that any individual can be added when there are proper sources for such claim. --Theoreticalmawi (talk) 17:36, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

The template is for Hanoverian princes not the heads of the house. DrKay (talk) 17:37, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

I never suggested that it is for heads of the house. I have no idea how you come to this claim. I explicitly agreed to add any individual, even born after 1914, when a proper source verifies this claim. I did not wrote Lines of Sucession or Burke's Royal Families of the World and do not know which principles they followed by attributing this titles. But for Lines of Succession I can assure you, that it is not Heads of the House.--Theoreticalmawi (talk) 17:56, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia talk:Requested moves § Adding hyphens to French personal names

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Requested moves § Adding hyphens to French personal names. Ham II (talk) 05:38, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab) § Wikipedia:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility) - RfC drafting for reversion of the November 2023 change

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab) § Wikipedia:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility) - RfC drafting for reversion of the November 2023 change. Rosbif73 (talk) 08:00, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

User:Briannemartindale and articles about royals/nobles

I'm wondering if anyone from this WikiProject might be interested in taking Briannemartindale under their wing and possibly helping them out when it comes to creating articles about nobles/royals. I came across this user at WP:THQ#spelling and grammar help and they seem to need the assistance of someone familiar with this type of article, how its sourced and how to best establish its Wikipedia notability. They seem to be arguing that the Wikipedia notability of the subject's they're trying to create articles about is inherited because they're relatives of someone Wikipedia notable (that's exactly not really true WP:NRVE), but their might be other reasons that some of the subjects being written about are Wikipedia notable. Part of the problem seems to be that Briannemartindale looks to be mainly creating one or two sentence stubs with very few sources cited (e.g. Henry Wentworth, 3rd Baron Wentworth) and then asking others to clean things up on the articles talk pages (e.g. Talk:Henry Wentworth, 3rd Baron Wentworth); I've seen others try to do something similar before and it usually doesn't work too well when it comes to article creation. Many of these articles already seem to have been draftified (probably justified in most cases) to give Briannemartindale a chance to work some more on them, but they don't seem to like that. Given the types of articles and content Briannemartindale appears to be interested in, perhaps they would be interested in becoming a member of this WikiProject. Briannemartidale has already been warned several times over the years about stuff and even seems to have ended up at ANI a few years back. One of the most recent warnings issued is related to poor translating, which actually can lead to problems per WP:TFOLWP and WP:OTHERLANGS if done poorly. Anyway, if someone wants to try mentoring this user a bit, then that would be great. They seem to mean well, and perhaps they be able to turn things around with the help of someone more experienced with these articles. They do seem to need a bit of specialized guidance that probably is something the more general noticeboards like the Teahouse or Help Desk is going to be able to provide. -- Marchjuly (talk) 21:15, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

yes help is what im needing since my spelling and grammar is very bad due to my strokes that i had several years ago Briannemartindale (talk) 21:28, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

There is absolutely no problem with your "spelling and grammar"? Your problem is not understanding the concept of notability. Theroadislong (talk) 21:58, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

question

i have several drafts that could be included on your drafts page including Henry Wentworth, 3rd Baron Wentworth, Nicholas Audley, 1st Baron Audley, Sir Richard Wentworth , Mary Neville, Baroness le Despencer

help would be much appreciated to get these drafts up and running thanks

thanks Briannemartindale (talk) 23:32, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Any reason you didn't link to Draft:Henry Wentworth, 3rd Baron Wentworth, Draft:Nicholas Audley, 1st Baron Audley, Draft:Sir Richard Wentworth, Draft:Mary Neville, Baroness le Despencer? —Tamfang (talk) 03:42, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:House of Bjelbo#Requested move 27 May 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:House of Bjelbo#Requested move 27 May 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 12:16, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Philip of Sweden#Requested move 29 May 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Philip of Sweden#Requested move 29 May 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 01:08, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:James V of Scotland#Requested move 7 June 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:James V of Scotland#Requested move 7 June 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Векочел (talk) 02:36, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

article review/ submission speeds

does anybody know the rough timeframe it takes for a submissions approval in this wikiproject? In the past I have had approvals in days/ just over a week however my current one has been almost a month, just wondering if there was something happening on the back end of Wikipedia?? my page is De'Anyers family. Some formatting errors which i'd be grateful for some help on.. but to my knowledge it is otherwise notable (with links to members pages wikipedia notable) and well sourced. would be grateful for some guidance thank you!!!! Starktoncollosal (talk) 12:31, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

As stated at that page, "This may take 3 months or more, since drafts are reviewed in no specific order. There are 3,222 pending submissions waiting for review." DrKay (talk) 12:54, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Madonna#Requested move 1 June 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Madonna#Requested move 1 June 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Dawid2009 (talk) 15:00, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

a question of quantity

Mere curiosity here: Is it known who had the greatest number of English/Scottish/British/Irish/UK peerages? —Tamfang (talk) 05:52, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:David III of Tao#Requested move 27 June 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:David III of Tao#Requested move 27 June 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Векочел (talk) 07:57, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

De'Anyers family

Was patrolling this article and couldn't really verify much in this outside of references to books that I cannot access. One of the family, Peter Daniell, has written a book on the family history, but that might not be independent. Was wondering if the WikiProject Royalty and Nobility had any view on it? thanks. Aszx5000 (talk) 13:24, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

I see that @AirshipJungleman29 has nominated it for deletion. thanks. Aszx5000 (talk) 15:24, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Umberto I of Italy#Requested move 9 July 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Umberto I of Italy#Requested move 9 July 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Векочел (talk) 18:59, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Francis, Duke of Guise#Requested move 14 July 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Francis, Duke of Guise#Requested move 14 July 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. 98𝚃𝙸𝙶𝙴𝚁𝙸𝚄𝚂 • [𝚃𝙰𝙻𝙺] 22:34, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Rose Hanbury#Requested move 15 July 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Rose Hanbury#Requested move 15 July 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. ASUKITE 16:16, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Mentions of descendants born after the article subject's death in lede

On James Hamilton, 3rd Duke of Abercorn, I removed the note that he was the great-grandfather of Diana, Princess of Wales on the grounds that he died several years before she was born, citing the various removals from the lede of the article of Prince Andrew of Greece and Denmark that he was the paternal grandfather of Charles III, arguing that they never met, and thus had no impact on each other's lives. It was suggested that consensus be gained for this. I posted here instead of article talk page in hopes of getting more discussion. 2601:249:9301:D570:F1A2:5799:7476:D3A3 (talk) 15:38, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree that unless the connection has a special significance (such as an inheritance that went direct from person to great-grandson in the case of Louis XIV), such remote connections are not important enough to feature in the lead. DrKay (talk) 15:49, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Agreed (and I think this is obvious). --JBL (talk) 19:05, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Family tree of Chinese monarchs (ancient)#Requested move 3 August 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Family tree of Chinese monarchs (ancient)#Requested move 3 August 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 05:47, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Old/new calendar

I noticed there are some discrepancies with using old/new calendar for the Russian royalty/nobility (example Grand Duke Konstantin Pavlovich of Russia, where the birth/death date in the infobox were mixed: birth date > OLD calendar and death date > NEW calendar, it's now correct). What is the standard for this? I've been looking for a while but couldn't find any rule, if anyone could be nice to redirect me, I'd be happy to re-edit. Thanks Daphoenyx (talk) 00:01, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Pandukabhaya of Anuradhapura#Requested move 22 August 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Pandukabhaya of Anuradhapura#Requested move 22 August 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Векочел (talk) 21:59, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Original research dispute at Talk:Greek royal family#Original research

Someone is trying to prevent the removal of WP:OR and WP:SYNTH materials in Greek royal family and Prince Christian of Hanover without addressing the main concerns. They are trying to use sources that do not even mention the article subjects in question to make original conclusions about them. Editors are invited to contribute to the discussion at Talk:Greek royal family#Original research. StellarHalo (talk) 19:24, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

Indeed it would be excellent to have more voices in this discussion about the best way to avoid WP:FRINGE content concerning people who are not royalty (despite being descendants of people who were), while also respecting other core policies. --JBL (talk) 19:26, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Category:Unassessed biography (royalty) articles

Would it be posible to rename this category to include (royalty and nobility) seeing as it belongs to this WikiProject? As it is, the names of these articles only include british peers and royalty. EmilySarah99 (talk) 08:35, 26 August 2024 (UTC)