Talk:Kroměříž Castle

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A fact from Kroměříž Castle appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 23 May 2006. The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that, although Mozart never visited Kroměříž, much of the Academy Award-winning film Amadeus was filmed at the local episcopal residence (pictured)?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2006/May.

Wikipedia

Castle x Château

I am not sure, whether it can be called "castle" in English. I think that castle is always fortified. Therefore I suggest renaming it to "château". Jan.Kamenicek 10:06, 22 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It occured to me that castle is not the best appellation for such structures as Litomysl, Mir, or Nezvizh. The word Château is certainly more adequate but it seems to be rarely used in the context of Central Europe, where castle is a conventional tradition of German "schloss". Check the World Heritage Website, for instance. If you think it is really appropriate, I'll gladly move the article to Château of Kroměříž. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 10:45, 22 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In Czech language the two structures are distinguished as well. There is "hrad" for a fortified castle and "zámek" for an unfortified representative seat of a member of aristocracy. The Kroměříž building is called "zámek" as well, and therefore I thought it would be more appropriate to rename it.

I think the problem is that buildings of this sort are not very common in Britain and therefore the British are not used to use the word "château", which is of French origin.

The British are weird. They prefer such vague words as "manor" or "stately home". --Ghirla ^-трёп- 11:55, 22 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The official Internet pages of this Kroměříž building use the word "chateau" in the title, but continue with "castle" in the text. So I really do not know, which could be better, although I personally would prefer "Kroměříž Château", with the "Kroměříž Castle" as a redirect.

It could also be interesting to ask a native English-speaking expert for an opinion. Jan.Kamenicek 11:47, 22 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia displays a "Palace of Versailles"—with a Talkpage where that usage is defended even after the gaffe is pointed out; so anything is possible at Wikipedia. The Central European architectural type of which Kroměříž is an example is an episcopal Residenz— except that all German words are taboo in popularist Slavic contexts. As the official residence of a bishop, in England it would correctly be "palace". In the UK, once a castle, always a castle, seems to be the non-rule—even when all trace of fortification is razed for pleasure grounds. The English never seem to use "manor house" as Americans do, but "House" or "Hall": a farm tenant is on his way to do seasonal business at the "Hall", not the "Manor." A chateau in the course of time gathers a village round its entrance; it is never built in an existing village, though it may be elaborately enlarged. Hrad is familiar to the Anglo ear: zámek remains unfamiliar in English. "Stately home" is no more than non-U for "country house".

In the present case, where the building has a front on a square and a back on a parterre garden, there is no fully acceptable substitute for Kroměříž Residenz, which would offend sensibilities. Kroměříž Castle is too awkward. How about Kroměříž Zámek. Or is the structure's context too urban? The best English would be Kroměříž Bishop's Palace. --Wetman 13:48, 22 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I agree, this is probably the most acceptable translation. Just in case somebody wanted to find "Kroměříž Chateau", I will make a redirect. Jan.Kamenicek 18:20, 22 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What is "Pleasure Garden"?

I was working in Kromeriz for 10 years, been everywhere, seen everything :-) - but what is "Pleasure Garden"? There are TWO gardens associated with Castle - one directly under the Castle is called "Podzamecka zahrada" (English park style) and the one sligtly away from castle, on the higher grounds (therefore not damaged by recent floods) is called "Kvetna zahrada" and is in distinctly French "Versailles" style. When writing about those things, put more trust in people who were there and actually seen it. I never was in Tibet = therefore I do not write about Tibet. :-) Ross.Hedvicek 16:25, 22 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

English version of oficial site: Archepiscopal Chateau and the Gardens of Kroměříž. Here are Two Gardens and relatively wide apart. Cinik 05:48, 9 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for proof that it is FLOWER GARDEN, not a Pleasure Garden. Ross.Hedvicek 16:14, 9 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In Czech it is called "Květná zahrada" while in German it is "Lustgarten". Because there is probably no English name, a translation is necessary. I personally would prefer "Flower Garden" as a translation of the Czech name, because it is a garden in the Czech Republic. "Pleasure Garden" would be more acceptable to me only if there was some evidence of a longer tradition of using this name, similarly to the long tradition of using the name "Lustgarten" in German. The official site of the palace uses the translation "Flower Garden", too. Jan.Kamenicek 18:15, 11 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Renaissance detail in 1497

"...bishop Stanislas Thurzo in 1497. The building was in a Late Gothic style, with a modicum of Renaissance detail." The presence even of a modicum of Renaissance detail in 1497 is an extraordinary fact that needs to be made more clear. --Wetman 20:11, 9 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it's extraordinary, given that the Palace of Facets and Archangel Cathedral were built by Italian masters as far east as Moscow at about the same time. The article says: "The first residence on the spot was founded by bishop Stanislas Thurzo in 1497. The building was in a Late Gothic style, with a modicum of Renaissance detail." Does it follow from this that Renaissance detailing dates back to 1493? I think not. The reference I provided says: "In 1497 the wealthy and well connected Stanislav Thurzo became Bishop of Olomouc. He set about reconstructing and modernizing his castle at Kromeríz. At first this work was carried out using the Late Gothic style of the period, but Renaissance elements began to filter in as the work progressed". --Ghirla ^-трёп- 14:24, 10 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]