Talk:Königsberg

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This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

This article was nominated for deletion on 16 March 2022. The result of the discussion was speedy keep.

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post-war numbers

"Between October 1947 and October 1948, about 100,000 Germans were forcibly moved to Germany."

Unfortunately the source isn't easily accessible, however, R.M. Douglas (https://www.google.de/books/edition/Orderly_and_Humane/DeOzUL-HXb0C?hl=de&gbpv=1, no page number provided, please search for "October 1947") gives the exact same number for the same period but refers to the region and not just the city of Königsberg. Could somebody check what Stefan Berger actually writes?

The same problem occurs when talking about people of Lithuanian background. The source clearly refers to the whole Kaliningrad oblast and not just the city.("In the region that became part of the Soviet Union, there was only a very small number of people with some kind of Lithuanian background.") As this article is about the City, we should stick to the specific numbers for the City of Königsberg/Kaliningrad.HerkusMonte (talk) 08:23, 9 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

September 2021 edits

In re: the recent addition, Bernhard Fisch and Marina Klemeševa, "Zum Schicksal der Deutschen in Königsberg 1945-1948 Zeitschrift für Ostmitteleuropa-Forschung Bd. 44 Nr. 3, 1995, a source that's also part of the diff, write (assuming my translation is correct):

The previous calculations of the population of Königsberg at the time of the German surrender are obviously too high. There is a strong probability that it was 63000 at the time of the surrender or shortly after. An actual decrease of 47,000 from the German estimate of 110,000 to this figure is unlikely, even if one assumes a high number of casualties during the three-day battle for the city and as a result of the subsequent assaults; in addition, the flight [of the population] must be taken into account.

(Die bisherigen Berechnungen der Einwohnerzahl von Königsberg zum Zeitpunkt der deutschen Kapitulation greifen augenscheinlich zu hoch. Es besteht eine starke Wahrscheinlichkeit, daß sie zum Zeitpunkt der Kapitulation bzw. kurz danach bei 63000 gelegen hat. Ein tatsächlicher Rückgang von den deutscherseits errechneten 110000 um 47000 auf diese Zahl ist unwahrscheinlich, selbst wenn man von einer hohen Zahl von Opfern während des dreitägigen Kampfe um die Stadt und infolge der anschlissenden Übergriffe; ausserdem muss die Flucht im Richtung berücksichtigt werden.)

It appears that Kossert's numbers are not the agreed upon numbers in recent historiography. There's certainly a discrepancy. In general, there seems to be a willingness to use Fisch and Klemeševa for certain aspects (i.e. nutritional estimates), but not for others (i.e. initial numbers of residents). --K.e.coffman (talk) 01:47, 13 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Bernhard Fisch (1926-2020) was a Russian language teacher at a Secondary school in Suhl, East Germany, and later on teached German language for foreigners at an agrarian school. He started to publish books about East Prussia out of private interest after he retired. He was not a historian. The number of 63,000 is based on Soviet post-war estimates. The passport office had officialy registered 23,000 Germans, another 40,000 were added by the Smersh, based on estimatations. The uncritical acceptance of Soviet post-war statistics by Fisch is regarded problematic (https://ome-lexikon.uni-oldenburg.de/orte/koenigsberg-kaliningrad). In any case Fisch's numbers are not based on modern historiography but Soviet post-war figures and do not represent modern research.

de:Andreas Kossert (born 1970) studied history, politics and slavistics at the Universities of Bonn, Berlin, Freiburg and Edinburgh. A book based on his phD on the history of Masuria was a huge success in German bookstores, he was a visiting professor in Dresden in 2007 and worked at the German Historical Institute Warsaw from 2001-2009. He received several prizes for his publications, he is currently the leading expert in East Prussian history. His views are not outdated or obsolete but represent the current state of scientific research. HerkusMonte (talk) 05:14, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the clarification. --K.e.coffman (talk) 17:43, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Lower Prussian name

So the German version of this Article includes "(niederpreußisch Keenigsbarg)", or the Lower Prussian name being Keenigsbarg. However, on this version that information was deleted for lack of a source. Which one is it? Does the information need to be deleted too on the German version or will it be added here? Argacyan (talk) 20:30, 29 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Different language Wikipedias are their own projects. Articles are not required to conform to each other and may find different facts interesting or uninteresting, supported or unsupported. Here, unsupported material should be removed and citations are required when adding. As for German Wikipedia, we leave it to the German-speaking audience... Skyerise (talk) 20:39, 29 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Could the following be used as a source then, cause I will absolutely add it as a source for the German wiki page as well if it can be. Otherwise a dictionary could also be used since it is a word translation and not an argument, fact, piece of data or otherwise: Dorch Keenigsbarg. Möt Riemelkes On 40 Holtschnettkes, Daniel Staschus, Gräfe un unzer Verlag, Königsberg i. Pr., 1924 Argacyan (talk) 21:04, 29 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

How would I know? I don't have a copy and don't know if it verifies the facts. It doesn't seem to have a page number, so I suspect you don't know for sure either. Get a copy, find the fact, then cite with a page number included, I suppose. Skyerise (talk) 21:11, 29 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This sounds like a troll- the source would be cited generally refering to the booklet, which is itself written in Lower Prussian, containing the reference at several spots starting with the title itself which I provided. Argacyan (talk) 21:21, 29 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That was an honest answer. I don't read Prussian. It seems you're the troll, then. Skyerise (talk) 21:26, 29 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

lousy map

The green regional map that appears with this article is 99% inadequate because it contains no lettering whatsoever. Which country is which is left for the poor visitor to guess. This is beneath the standard that is expected of Wikipedia content. I ask, therefore, that either the existing useless map be revised or that it be replaced with one that has meaning. LarryWiki115 (talk) 19:13, 20 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Not all Wikipedia visitors are Americans ;) Synotia (talk) 15:04, 8 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Not all are Europeans either - how’s your African geography without any country labels?

Names would be an improvement.—Ermenrich (talk) 22:28, 8 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

if you cant read the English labels, then I guess you wont be able to read the English article. at the top of the talk page is is specifically stated that this article is in American English. 76.156.6.163 (talk) 00:15, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Flag and coat of arms

Would be nice to add the flag and coat of arms of Königsberg in the infobox, though I don't know how to do this here. Synotia (talk) 15:03, 8 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Language

"....From the thirteenth to the twentieth centuries on, the inhabitants spoke predominantly German, although the city also had a profound influence upon the Lithuanian and Polish cultures..."

The inhabitants didn't just "spoke predominantly German". They were Germans!

This way it sounds like the people of Königsberg had some special national, not German identity. I mean it points out the Polish and Lithuanian influx. But why point out linguistics, instead of nationality.

It would be worth it to point it out, if they spoke a different language but German. KingOfRay (talk) 08:12, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]