Talk:Judea/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

"supporters of the Israeli occupation"

Abu Ali, before re-inserting the POV that the term is used by "supporters of the Israeli occupation", please think about WP:V and WP:NPOV. Jayjg ^(talk) 00:47, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

It is the current usage of the term Judea and Sameria which is POV, not my edit. In the current context the term is used to emphasise the Jewish link with these areas and by implication justify continued jewish rule over them. This is not a question of language but a question of political stand regarding the settlements. Pro settler groups + the Israeli government since 1977 use this term (in english as well as hebrew), whereas opponents of the occupation (hebrew or english) would use the term West Bank (see [1]). Whether you intended it or not the edit you re-instated is misleading and makes wikipedia look like a setteler propoganda site. Abu ali 11:26, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Maybe we can find some consensus here again, maybe this wording will help: "...is mainly used by Hebrew speakers...". --Magabund 12:06, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

No! The language of the speaker is irrelevant. It is the politics that count. Why not just remove the sentence "In modern times, the name "Yehudah" may be used by Hebrew speakers to refer to a large southern section of Israel and the West Bank, or in the combined term Judea and Samaria to refer specifically to the West Bank area south of Jerusalem." Abu ali 12:11, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Quoting The Forward:

I have touched on this matter before, yet I feel the need to say it again: Although William Safire is simply repeating what for years now has been the conventional wisdom of the American media, “Judea” and “Samaria,” the Hebrew “Yehuda” and “Shomron,” are not biblical words for the hill districts south and north of Jerusalem that were revived by Israeli nationalists after the 1967 war. That is, they are indeed biblical words, but they have been used by Jews through the ages and have been the standard Hebrew terms for these parts of Palestine since the beginnings of Zionist settlement in the late 19th century...

Judea and Samaria are the proper Hebrew words for the central hill country of Palestine between the Galilee and the Negev no less than Connecticut is the proper English word for the area between New York and Massachusetts. And Hebrew speakers can and should use these words, regardless of what they think the future of the territories designated by them should be. Indeed, such is the tendency in Israel today, so that even Israelis on the left talk more and more about the need to leave “Judea and Samaria,” or to give the Palestinians a state in “Judea and Samaria” rather than “in the West Bank.”[2]

The Forward is a left-wing, liberal Jewish newspaper, founded by socialists in 1897. Jayjg ^(talk) 17:35, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

You say "Hebrew speakers can and should use these words" and that is your opinion. But I don't think that the role of WP is to tell hebrew speakers what words they should use. You say that even Israelis on the left talk more and more about the need to leave “Judea and Samaria,” which implies that up till now they use a different term but that J&S is gaining popularity. If this trend is real and if it continues then some day the Israeli left will all use the term J&S. Until then, the term is contentious in its current application. Abu ali 18:38, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Huh? I didn't say that, I was quoting the article in The Forward, which basically contradicts everything you have said here. It points out that "West Bank" is the new term, "Judea and Samaria" is the traditional term, and that left-wing Hebrew speakers also use it. That pretty much covers the issue here. Jayjg ^(talk) 20:56, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi Jayjg, on 17:35, 27 December 2006 you quoted an opinion column in the Forward "...even Israelis on the left talk more and more about the need to leave “Judea and Samaria,”. The author does not cite any evidence for his statement, and people I know on the Israeli left dispute it. But even if we accept the accuracy of the statement that increasing numbers even on the Israeli left use the term "Judea and Samaria" then implicit in the statement is that some on the Israeli left still do not use the term. And they are hebrew speakers. This is confrimed by the article you cited in Forward

... after the 1967 war it became bon ton among Israeli intellectuals on the anti-annexationist left to refer, too, to Judea and Samaria as “the West Bank,” as if these were areas devoid of Jewish historical associations and Jewish memories

The writer argues that the Israeli left are wrong to use the term West Bank and should use the term "Judea and Sameria". But surely WP should describe the world as it is, rather than as it should be. And today's reality is that the term J&S is contentious even in Israel where it would be used in government communiques but not say in Amira Hass articles in Haaretz [3], or on the Peace now website [4]. So the sentence from the article

"In modern usage, "Yehudah" may be used by Hebrew speakers to refer to a large southern section of Israel and the West Bank, or in the combined term Judea and Samaria to refer specifically to the West Bank area south of Jerusalem."

is misleading to say the least. In my opinion best to drop the entire sentence. Especially as Judea and Samaria has its own article. Abu ali 10:58, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

So, some Hebrew speakers use it, and some don't. Your original claim that it was used by "supporters of the Israeli occupation" is clearly false, but the claim that it "may be used by Hebrew speakers" is clearly true, and not at all "misleading". Wikipedia is not describing the world "as it should be", but simply stating how the term is used today. And, but the way, all Hebrew newspapers except Ha'aretz use it. I'm not sure why you would want to suppress this common usage of the term, which has been used continuously this way for literally thousands of years. Jayjg ^(talk) 16:36, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Hello Jayjg once again...

We agree that some Hebrew speakers use it and some don't.

You state that my claim that it was used by "supporters of the Israeli occupation" is clearly false. But the falseness of my claim is not clear to me. You have not demonstrated that supporters of the occupation do not use the term.

We agree on WP stating how the term is used today, and on Ha'aretz's use of the term West Bank. And Haaretz is one of the 3 main papers in Israel and is certainly an important part of the hebrew usage today.

I can not verify the "continued use of the term for thousands of years". But the sentence in the article talks about current usage. And the article you refered to in Forward even in its title shows that the choice of term is contravertial.

I don't want to suppress the term. But neither should we hide its political connotations.

The statement that "Yehudah may be used by Hebrew speakers" is true becuase the word may turns it into a tautology, anyone may use any term for anything. While not false, the statement is misleading because the choice of terminology depends more on politics than on language.

Abu ali 17:18, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

The claim that it is "used by supporters of the Israeli occupation" obviously implies that all those who use it are "supporters of the Israeli occupation". A more accurate statement would be "it is used by some who support the Israeli occupation, some who don't, and some who haven't made up their minds". However, that would be a silly statement, though at least accurate. As for being a "tautology", that's hardly the case. "Yehuda" is (and has always been) used regularly by Hebrew speakers to refer to a certain geographic area; contrary to your claim that "anyone may use any term for anything", no-one would use the term "aza" or "livanon" or "mizraim" or a million other terms to refer to that area. Jayjg ^(talk) 21:18, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

no-one would, but anyone may. Jayjg, you are not happy with "used by supporters of the occupation" but I am not happy with "used by Hebrew speakers" for the same reason. A more correct sentence would, I agree, be silly. So why not just drop the sentence all together? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Abu ali (talk • contribs) 22:24, 28 December 2006 (UTC).

I'm not happy with "used by supporters of the occupation" because it's misleading, inaccurate, original research. You're not happy with "used by Hebrew speakers" because it doesn't portray the word's use in the political way you think it should be portrayed. There's a huge difference between the two. Simple fact ("used by Hebrew speakers") is helpful, political soapboxing ("used by supporters of the occupation") is not. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:49, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Just when I thought we had made progress and reached agreements on some points, your argument degenerates into name calling. You characterize your choice of phrase as the simple truth, whereas any alternative is original research and political soap boxing. I can assure you that there is nothing "original" in either of our arguments (which are the subject of the Forward article). "used by hebrew speakers" is misleading because

• Some hebrew speakers use it and some do not
• Some english speakers use it and some do not
• The phrase tells us nothing about which hebrew/english speaker will use it and which won't, and why
• The phrase says nothing about the contentious nature of the term "Judea and Sameria"

I am don't think "supporters of the occupation" is a great alternative either. And suggest once again that removing the sentence about the "modern context" would be a solution we could both live with. Abu ali 09:52, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

I've removed the contentious phrase "may be used by Hebrew speakers" and re-worded to accommodate your objections. Jayjg ^(talk) 20:39, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Great... We have found a mutally agreed text. Maybe one day we will be able to find a way for our peoples to live in peace. Till then I wish you a happy new year/Chanuka/Id. Abu ali 21:31, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

To you as well. Jayjg ^(talk) 04:15, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Minor Change

In the chronology it mentions "6 day war." From the book on Israel I am reading, I believe it should be "6-Day War." I am hesitant to change an article on which I am not an expert though. Does anyone know the preferred: hyphenation or not?

Possible Addition to the Article

The Modern Call of Judea (The West Bank) to become a second Jewish state - The State of Judea.

The non-diaspora Jews and their genetic contribution to the pre-1948 population

Re Hertz1888's suggested modification, there is nothing in Oppenheimer's et al research that concludes that the non-diaspora Jews contributed anything at all to the gene pool of the diaspora Jews, which is what the modification would mean if left unqualified. Of the non-diaspora Jews, it's pretty obvious that the group provided the gene pool of itself. I have thus reverted the line to the original "Recent studies indicate that [the non-diaspora Jews] formed the genetic core of the present-day Palestinian people." MeteorMaker (talk) 09:29, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

The source, which is unreliable in any event, certainly doesn't conclude "Recent studies indicate that these groups formed the genetic core of the present-day Palestinian people." It's bad enough to use poor sources, but it's even worse to misrepresent them. Jayjg ^(talk) 01:35, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

The source indeed concludes: "a new genetic study shows that many Arabs and Jews are closely related. More than 70% of Jewish men and half of the Arab men whose DNA was studied inherited their Y chromosomes from the same paternal ancestors who lived in the region within the last few thousand years." The source does provide references to the reports it summarizes. I have added a link to Oppenheimer's original study. MeteorMaker (talk) 08:48, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

And that conclusion has nothing whatsoever with the claim you've made for the source. Please don't misrepresent sources again, thanks. Jayjg ^(talk) 00:52, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

The conclusion is that 50% of the modern-day Palestinians and 70% of the modern-day diasporan Jews descended from the same paternal ancestors in historical times. How would you suggest I phrase it if "Recent studies indicate that [the non-diaspora Jews] formed the genetic core of the present-day Palestinian people" is a misrepresentation? MeteorMaker (talk) 06:27, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

The source does not mention Palestinians. Beit Or 08:36, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

If you read the study, it does. MeteorMaker (talk) 10:54, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

But it also mentions Jews, doesn't it? Something you keep deleting. I wonder why? Jayjg ^(talk) 00:52, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

I wonder where you see that deleted? Re the oblique accusation of anti-Semitism, please see WP:CIVIL. MeteorMaker (talk) 06:48, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

You deleted it right here. As for the "oblique accusation of anti-Semitism", it is oblique indeed, to the point of non-existence. Please don't make false accusations, thanks. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:27, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

You may have missed the first paragraph in this section. To repeat myself, Hertz1888's suggested modification would mean that the non-diasporan Jews contributed to the gene pool of either 1) the diasporan Jews, which is a pretty unsupported theory, or 2) themselves, which is, I guess you agree, so obvious it doesn't need pointing out. Hence the deletion.

He also changed "Palestinians" to the much broader term "Arabs", which would mean the non-diasporan Jews begat the population of the entire Arab world. Quite a misrepresentation of the Oppenheimer report. Would you have preferred if I had left it alone?MeteorMaker (talk) 09:42, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

I would have preferred if you had accurately described the contents of the article, rather than one-sidedly misrepresenting them. I would have preferred even more if you hadn't bothered inserting the material to begin with; it's just another way of attempting to politicize this article, based on interpretations of genetic studies that aren't particularly relevant to this topic. Jayjg ^(talk) 15:37, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

You have yet to show me how I have misrepresented them. The material is just as relevant as the somewhat one-sided line "There was never a time when there were not Jews and Jewish communities", particularly since the studies indicate that those Jewish communities formed the core of the present-day Palestinian people. If we cannot reach consensus, how about just deleting that sentence? MeteorMaker (talk) 18:46, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, how did you misrepresent them? Let's see, the source you used said:

More than 70% of Jewish men and half of the Arab men whose DNA was studied inherited their Y chromosomes from the same paternal ancestors who lived in the region within the last few thousand years.

You summarized that as:

Recent studies indicate that these groups formed the genetic core of the present-day Palestinian people.

and, when reference was added to Jews, deleted it. That's about as egregious abuse of a source as I've seen in a long time. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:33, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Note: "Arabs" in the summarized version, "Palestinians" in the original text, as I've pointed out already. What is your alternative interpretation? How would the sentence be better if it read "There was never a time when there were not Jews and Jewish communities. Recent studies indicate that these groups formed the genetic core of the present-day Palestinian people and the Jews in those Jewish communities"? MeteorMaker (talk) 01:16, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

I quoted the source exactly, and your summary not only expurgated any mention of Jews, but misrepresented what the source said about Arabs. There's no way of talking your way around this. Jayjg ^(talk) 00:33, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

How did I misrepresent what the report said about Arab (Palestinians)? Re my alleged "expurgation of any mention of Jews", I have explained three times already that it's pretty self-evident that the original non-diasporan Jews provided the gene pool of themselves, and that the line I corrected would have stated that diasporan Jews originated in this group as well. Again, quite a misrepresentation of the Oppenheimer report. Please don't misrepresent my edit a fourth time. MeteorMaker (talk) 07:30, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Source says:

More than 70% of Jewish men and half of the Arab men whose DNA was studied inherited their Y chromosomes from the same paternal ancestors who lived in the region within the last few thousand years.

MeteorMaker summarizes as:

Recent studies indicate that these groups formed the genetic core of the present-day Palestinian people.

Case closed. Don't do it again. Jayjg ^(talk) 01:04, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

That is indeed the conclusion of this and other studies. If you insist my one-line summary is a misrepresentation, could that be remedied by adding a direct link to the study itself? Which, incidentally, states:

"The low haplotype diversity of the [Palestinian and Israeli] Arab clade chromosomes, as seen in the network, suggests that they descended from a relatively recent common ancestor. Arab clade chromosomes could have been present in the common ancestral population of Arabs and Jews, and drifted to high frequencies in one of the subgroups following population isolation. The event leading to this isolation might have been the acceptance of the monotheistic Jewish religion by a subset of the population, or geographic separation due to the expulsion of Jews after the destruction of the Second Temple in AD79. Alternatively, the Arab clade could have been introduced through generation flow, perhaps by the immigration of Arab tribes in the first millennium AD. [...] According to historical records part, or perhaps the majority, of the Moslem Arabs in this country descended from local inhabitants, mainly Christians and Jews, who had converted after the Islamic conquest in the seventh century AD. [...] Thus, our findings are in good agreement with historical evidence and suggest genetic continuity in both populations despite their long separation and the wide geographic dispersal of Jews. "[5]

Judge for yourself if your accusation of misrepresentation has any merit. MeteorMaker (talk) 09:26, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

The quotation you picked seems to mention Jews a lot, doesn't it? Jayjg ^(talk) 00:56, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

So shall we include it in extenso? MeteorMaker (talk) 07:41, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

No, since it's both misleading and irrelevant to this article. Jayjg ^(talk) 03:10, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't see how it's less relevant than the statement "There was never a time when there were not Jews and Jewish communities, though the size and condition of those communities fluctuated greatly". When perhaps the majority of this group converts to Islam, they are suddenly irrelevant? MeteorMaker (talk) 06:32, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

So, in the name of neutrality, I have now removed it. MeteorMaker (talk) 06:58, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Term usage note

It's important to not give the impression that the term "Judea" presently has any currency outside (certain camps in) Israel, so we need a usage note. If the article were dealing exclusively with the area during the 6-7 centuries of Jewish rule, there would be less room for confusion, but it's practically impossible to keep an article such as this from expanding into the last two millennia. MeteorMaker (talk) 09:13, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm not following this comment. Do you have any sources supporting this claim, because my knowledge in Hebrew suggests that most mainstream medias use "Yehuda VeShomron" on a fairly regular basis. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 13:57, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Jayjg, apparently a fluent Hebrew speaker, confirms that Israel's third largest newspaper doesn't use the term, so the claim that it's universally accepted in Israel is clearly unsupported. Outside the country, the area is commonly referred to as the West Bank. Since this is English Wikipedia, we should use the term that's accepted in English-speaking countries. MeteorMaker (talk) 16:34, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

The bulk of this article describes the history of the area under Jewish rule, when it was universally called Judea. There are 7 lines dedicated to post 1948 history, and of those 7, 4 describe the fact that it is called the "West Bank". Please don't turn this article into yet another battleground. I am Dr. Drakken (talk) 14:32, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

This is in fact my main objection (apart from the fact that the article, together with its sister article on Samaria, merely duplicates information already available in History of ancient Israel and Judah and gives the impression of being a bit of a coatrack). We don't want to mislead the casual reader into believing "Judea" is an accepted term outside Israel. Could we change the present tense in the lead to make clear that the article is indeed about the history of the area under Jewish rule? Compare to the article on Prussia, particularly the usage note. MeteorMaker (talk) 16:34, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Please don't politicize this article with unsourced claims. Jayjg ^(talk) 00:53, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

I think it's up to those who claim that "Judea" is the universally accepted term for the area to provide sources for their claim. Negatives can obviously not be proven. MeteorMaker (talk) 07:14, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid that using false cliches will not get your pov motivated ideas to stick. 79.181.17.163 (talk) 13:51, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid so too, that's why I refrain from such tactics. Did you have a valid argument you wanted to share or was that all you had to say? MeteorMaker (talk) 14:33, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

But you just did. No, you were refuted quite thoroughly by now. 79.181.17.163 (talk) 14:58, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Since no-one has claimed that Judea is "the universally accepted term for the area", there's no need to provide a source for such a claim. Judea is a region with a unique history that is not contiguous with any of the other geographic entities described on Wikipedia - not with the West Bank, nor Israel. This is the article that describes that region. Jayjg ^(talk) 15:45, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

I believe the same could be said about Prussia, Germania, Livonia, Khazaria and just about every geographical name that has been used for a particular region during a particular historical period. Since the names aren't used any more in the English language, the lead consistently uses the past tense so as not to mislead the reader into believing the terms are used today. The same should be true for the articles on "Judea" and "Samaria". If you feel those terms for the West Bank are different from any of the historical place names I've given you, please explain how. MeteorMaker (talk) 18:37, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm not seeing how this article differs significantly from those ones. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:37, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, it differs significantly in that it uses the present tense in the lead, whereas the articles on Prussia, Germania, Livonia and Khazaria all use the past, because the names are not in current use in English. I have suggested we align this article with that pattern, so we don't give people the impression "Judea" a valid geographical term today. What do you say? MeteorMaker (talk) 01:01, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Um, Judea is a "valid geographical term today", as much as any other. It may not be as commonly used as it once was, but it didn't suddenly become "invalid". Jayjg ^(talk) 00:36, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Again, if you can support that claim, it would be helpful. MeteorMaker (talk) 07:21, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually, you need to prove it's "invalid". Jayjg ^(talk) 01:02, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

How do you suggest one proves a negative, Jayjg? Your claim "Judea is a valid geographical term today" should be easy to prove, if that is in fact the case. MeteorMaker (talk) 09:34, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

How does one distinguish between "valid" and "invalid" geographical terms? Is there some book I can read on this subject? Jayjg ^(talk) 02:05, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, if one can find support for one's position that a term enjoys widespread usage (WP's procedure detailed here), I assume one has a slightly better position than if one just plays obtuse. MeteorMaker (talk) 07:47, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Would it be acceptable to rephrase the lead so that it's clear that the article deals with the history of the area under Jewish rule and that the term "Judea" only applies in that context?

Suggested new version: "Judea or Judæa (Hebrew: יהודה, Standard Yəhuda Tiberian Yəhûḏāh, "praised, celebrated"; Greek: Ιουδαία, Ioudaía; Latin: Iudæa) was the name of the mountainous southern part of the West Bank area, now divided between Israel and the Palestinian Authority, during the periods of Jewish rule.". MeteorMaker (talk) 07:14, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

It's also a name that was used by the U.N., and is still used today. There's no need to add unsourced political views to this article. Jayjg ^(talk) 00:53, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Nobody disputes it is used in certain political camps in Israel (see above). However, this is not he.wikipedia.org. The UN certainly isn't using the term "Judea". Presenting the term as if it was universally accepted is a violation of WP:NPOV and, as I've pointed out above, the whole article appears to be a coatrack. It could be saved with usage note as outlined above however. MeteorMaker (talk) 06:39, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

This is an article about the region known as "Judea". No-one is "Presenting the term as if it was universally accepted"; rather, you are trying to inject your political views into the article. Please desist. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:25, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

It may be known to you as "Judea", but certainly not to the rest of the world outside Israel, and Wikipedia should not be a vehicle for attempts to change that. "Judea" is strictly a historic term and that should be reflected in the article. Compare to the wording in articles like Prussia or Germania. MeteorMaker (talk) 09:51, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

This isn't about me, please stop attempting to personalize the discussion. The article is about the region known as Judea, and your unsourced attempts to politicize the article are unwelcome. Jayjg ^(talk) 15:41, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Are you saying that the region is presently known as "Judea" outside Israel? Again, it would be helpful if you could provide sources for that claim. MeteorMaker (talk) 18:18, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

You mean the ancient region of Judea? Yes, it's referred to all the time as Judea - it was, after all, a Jewish kingdom, and then a Roman province. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:36, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Obviously I'm talking about the region in modern times. In your opinion, is it known as "Judea" outside Israel? MeteorMaker (talk) 01:01, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

If you really want to remove an article based on your argument, you should remove the article Palestine. That region was created into two states Israel and Jordan and Palestine is historical only. However, Judea is a common geographic established fact just like Palestine. The reason you don't hear it much is because people prefer to use West Bank for political gains, but the actual geographic connotation still exists, and in fact is also a district in Israel. Since Israel controls part of the area, it can call it by any name it wishes. It's an official name of a place therefore, certainly not past tense. It's also called like this by Christians around the world btw. Amoruso (talk) 01:18, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

I haven't suggested removing any article, you must have misread. I have suggested changing the lead as outlined above.

"Since Israel controls part of the area, it can call it by any name it wishes", far be it from me to deny Israel the right to call any area anything. However, what a particular place is called in Israel is only relevant in he.wikipedia.org and yi.wikipedia.org. This is English Wikipedia, and you have yet to show that the term enjoys universal acceptance in the English language, outside its historical context. MeteorMaker (talk) 02:50, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Err, what policy is that that insists a term must "enjoy universal acceptance in the English language"? I doubt there is any term in English that "enjoys universal acceptance". Jayjg ^(talk) 00:36, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

From Wikipedia: Naming conventions :"This is the English Wikipedia; its purpose is to communicate with English-speaking readers. [...] If no name can be shown to be widely accepted in English, use the local official name. Non-English names should be used only if there are no established names in English. Rationale for historical usage should be explained on the article's talk page and in the name's section of the article about the geographical place in question."

The procedure to determine the accepted name is detailed here.MeteorMaker (talk) 07:17, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

What, in your view, is the "widely accepted name" of the region known as "Judea"? Jayjg ^(talk) 01:01, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

The widely accepted name today is the West Bank. The area doesn't map 1:1 with ancient Judea, but few 2,000 years old administrative divisions are intact today, and Wikipedia should not give that impression either. Again, compare to the articles on Prussia, Germania, Livonia, and Khazaria. The names have changed, the borders have changed, hence the use of the past tense in the lead in every article about an ancient region except this one and its sister article on "Samaria". MeteorMaker (talk) 09:43, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Err, no, the West Bank doesn't even map 1:½ with Judea. Judea covers part of Israel, about half of the West Bank, and small parts of Jordan. They are not synonyms - not even close. Jayjg ^(talk) 01:01, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Neither is any of the ancient regions I've listed as examples. I can't see the relevance of your objection either, isn't this article about historical Judea and not some kind of artificial modern-day entity? MeteorMaker (talk) 07:40, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Jayjg. There's no such policy. You just invented a new one :) Israel don't call it Judea, they call it יהודה. So yes it's english language - Judea. And like I said, it's not only by "Israel" or "Jews" (God forbid we go by them). It's by practically all Christian following people, making it something like half the world calling it by this name, lots of English speaking people there. [6] [7]. Anyway, like China calls Tibet Tibet Autonomus Region and the rest of the world calls it Tibet... it still goes by that name in the wikipedian article. Just an example... the reality is that Judea is a region that exists today, not historically, people live there and identify the place as such, and don't forget the Judean hills, and generally the name U.N uses too sometimes [8] Amoruso (talk) 00:47, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

I'd welcome some support for your claim that "practically all Christian following people, something like half the world calling it by this name", besides one link to a Israel-based Zionist website and one that reports on the "Third International Christian Zionist Congress", held in Jerusalem. And your link to the UN shows a list of titles of documents supplied by the Israeli government. ;) MeteorMaker (talk) 07:17, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

I welcome your views on the suggested rephrasing of the lead (see above). MeteorMaker (talk) 09:38, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

The area is known geographically as Judea. Some may not use it for political figures but the U.N has previously used it, many people use it, of course Jews and Israelis do, etc. The same thing for Samaria. It's not historic. Therefore, no grounds for any lead change which seems to be POV motivated. 79.181.17.163 (talk) 13:49, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

See my comment to Jayjg above.MeteorMaker (talk) 14:03, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Indeed Jayjg has refuted your claims. 79.181.17.163 (talk) 14:58, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Please refrain from making unverifiable claims and posts that don't contribute anything to the discussion. Thank you. MeteorMaker (talk) 18:18, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Please behave. Amoruso (talk) 01:18, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

So, do we now have consensus that 1) the article is about the historical Judea and 2) that the term "Judea" for the present-day area is not used outside Israel? If not, please support your argument with relevant information. MeteorMaker (talk) 13:21, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

You're the one making claims, you support them with sources. Jayjg ^(talk) 00:36, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

The claim that the article is about the historical Judea is not mine, it has been repeated by several people (see above) and originated with I am Dr. Drakken. We have yet to see anybody disagree with that. As about the toponym's usage domain, I have only asked for evidence that it is used outside Israel. So far, none has been produced. MeteorMaker (talk) 06:27, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

You're the one who keeps making the claims about the term, you have to prove them. Jayjg ^(talk) 01:01, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I conclude we have consensus on assertion 1, that this article is about ancient Judea. As about assertion 2, that the term "Judea" for the present-day area is not used outside Israel, your opposing position would be considerably stronger if you could produce some kind of support for it. MeteorMaker (talk) 09:34, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Please don't assert consensus where there obviously is none. This article is about the region known as Judea. Jayjg ^(talk) 01:01, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

So, Jayjg, to whom would you say the region is known as "Judea"? MeteorMaker (talk) 07:38, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Unlike you, I don't feel the need to speculate. Jayjg ^(talk) 00:48, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

"Speculate" isn't defined as "asking questions and requesting evidence". Again, to whom would you say the region is known as "Judea"? MeteorMaker (talk) 04:39, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Unlike you, I don't feel the need to speculate. Jayjg ^(talk) 02:21, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

For i=1; i<1000; i++ :

"Speculate" isn't defined as "asking questions and requesting evidence". Again, to whom would you say the region is known as "Judea"? MeteorMaker (talk) 04:39, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Disputed

Accuracy disputed: "Judea", a historical or modern toponym?

I have now added a "Disputed" tag to the page, until the toponym dispute started in the section above can be resolved. To recapitulate:

• Consensus seems to be that this is an article about the historical Judea.
• Articles about other historical regions (eg. Prussia, Germania, Livonia, Khazaria) consistently use the past tense (eg "Prussia was, most recently, a historic state", "Livonia was once the land of the Finnic Livonians", Khazaria was the country of the Khazars", "Germania was the Latin exonym for a geographical area of land on the east bank of the Rhine").
• My suggestion: Modify the lead of this article to conform to that pattern in order to avoid misleading readers into believing "Judea" is a valid geographical term today. Suggested wording: "Judea or Judæa (Hebrew: יהודה, Standard Yəhuda Tiberian Yəhûḏāh, "praised, celebrated"; Greek: Ιουδαία, Ioudaía; Latin: Iudæa) was the name of the mountainous southern part of the West Bank area, now divided between Israel and the Palestinian Authority, during the periods of Jewish rule."

Some people have objected that the term is used today, in Israel. The same, however, can be said about "Germania", which doesn't mean the article on Germania should be changed to use the present tense. What a particular region is called in Israel has no bearing on English Wikipedia.

The same people contend that the term enjoys widespread acceptance outside Israel as well, but have so far failed to produce evidence for that position. MeteorMaker (talk) 13:09, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Widespread acceptance is a subjective matter, but it's clearly not a rejected terminology, esp. when discussing Israeli control/municipality:

• Judaea, Samaria and Gaza (Studies in foreign policy)
• Economic development in Judea-Samaria and the Gaza District: 1985-86
• Israel, the Middle East, and the Great Powers
• Judea-Samaria and the Gaza District: A Sixteen-year Survey (1967-1983) Microform
• Separate and Cooperate, Cooperate and Separate
• Report of the Director-General: International Labour Conference 78th session By International Labour Office
• Developing the Occupied Territories: An Investment in Peace By World Bank
• The Israeli-Palestinian Conflict: A Documentary Record International Center for Peace in the Middle East.

I hope this will solve the disputes. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 01:25, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, you could have provided a better selection of anecdotal evidence. Of the eight items on your list:

• five (#2, #4, #6, #7, #8) are simply documents (or quotes from documents) straight from the Israeli government or other official bodies,
• one (Elazar, #1) has worked as an Israeli gov't consultant (not that that is aggravating per se, but you can make fairly safe assumptions why he is using Zionist terminology),
• one (#3) is written by associates at the Tel-Aviv University,
• finally, one (#5), a compilation of texts by Israelis and Palestinians, clearly acknowledges that

  "Israeli officials use the names "Judea and Samaria" and "the Gaza District" while the Palestinians use the terms "West Bank" and "Gaza Strip" or just "Palestine"."

  That would seem to constitute negative evidence for your position.

MeteorMaker (talk) 07:16, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

I disagree for the most part with your assessment of the provided sources; As I'v said, acceptance is a subjective matter.

Seeing that you have strong feelings on this matter and others disagree, I'd suggest that you first provide some evidence to support your theory. I'm not sure what type of evidence would work since I find it to be a "Jews and anyone in contact with Israel don't have a say on naming conventions" theory, so I feel you should at least make an effort to persuade with something other than rejection of 'International/World Bank' sources.

Cordially, Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 13:22, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

In case your disagreement is based on factual reasons and not just pure emotion, it would be interesting to hear your objective explanation how the Israel Central Bureau of Statistics, the Bank of Israel Research Dept, the "Coordinator of Government Operations in Judea-Samaria and the Gaza District", one former consultant for the Israeli government, and (then-)PM Yitzhak Shamir are not affiliated with the Israeli government in any way.

If you really intended to prove that the term "Judea" is in common use outside Israel, one would think you could have come up with a better list, considering every single writer on your list is an Israeli except one, who has worked for the Israeli government. :D MeteorMaker (talk) 13:51, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

No need to get personal just because we disagree on interpretation of sources. From my perspective, the last three sources make my point for me just fine. I think it's time you put some sources which reject the Judea terminology proving your perspective/theory. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 20:08, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

I believe you brought up the subject of emotions first, but let's leave that aside. Your claim that direct quotes in a foreign publication of Israel's Central Bureau of Statistics, then-PM's Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir, the Ministry of Labour and Social Affairs in Israel, the various Knesset political parties' manifestos, the government itself, and several other official Israeli bodies (all in your last three sources) are somehow proof of widespread international acceptance of the term "Judea" is, frankly, pretty silly. The fact that you have failed to come up with one single example in support of your position is in fact good support of mine: that such examples are exceedingly thin on the ground. MeteorMaker (talk) 20:53, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

• "The administration's talented civil service worked diligently: they adamantly resisted Israeli pressure to exclude Judea and Samaria in future negotiations for a comprehensive settlement; sent secret emissaries to Arafat to have the PLO recognize Israel and accept UNSC Resolution 242; negotiated a formula for Moscow's participation; and tinkered in every way possible to solicit Syrian participation." Kenneth W. Stein, Heroic Diplomacy: Sadat, Kissinger, Carter, Begin and the Quest for Arab-Israeli Peace, Routledge, 1999, p. 203.
• "Begin would not accommodate Sadat, but he decided to visit Carter and to present him with his ideas on 'home rule' for the Palestinian Arabs in Judea, Samaria, and Gaza." Herbert Druks, The Uncertain Alliance: The U.S. and Israel from Kennedy to the Peace Process, Greenwood Publishing Group, 2001, p. 172.

Jayjg ^(talk) 03:10, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't own those two books, so I can't verify your claim, but it seems that one professor at Brooklyn's Department of Judaic Studies and one at the Institute for the Study of Modern Israel of Emory University have indeed used the term "Judea" at least once. Interestingly, prof. Stein seems to have rejected the term since:

Indeed, skepticism of Carter's intentions may have convinced Begin to take a harder line about the West Bank, which, in line with biblical terminology, he called Judea and Samaria. [9]

The question is: Does this constitute conclusive evidence of "widespread acceptance"? I had expected something more like hearing proof that the term is used consistently in a news network or major newspaper. MeteorMaker (talk) 07:24, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I said it's there; therefore, it is there. There is no need for you to "verify my claim". Please save further insulting comments for some off-Wikipedia site. Jayjg ^(talk) 02:20, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Apparently you know very little about the scientific process. MeteorMaker (talk) 05:47, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

This isn't a science experiment, and restrict your comments to discussion of article content. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:49, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

History is not an experimental science, as you are probably aware. Nor is any wikipedian exempt from the verification requirement. Please understand that verification is not an "insult", it is an integral part of the scientific method as well as the Wikipedia process. "I said it's there; therefore, it is there" is an attitude which is completely at odds with everything Wikipedia stands for. MeteorMaker (talk) 03:06, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Here are a few more:

• "Let us begin with Judea. This name by which we know the southern portion of the land has not always designated the same extent of territory" - Prof. J.S. Riggs, Studies in Palestinian Geography. II. Judea, The Biblical World, Vol. 4, No. 2 (Aug., 1894), pp. 87-93
• "A photograph of the hill country of Judea showing Mount Scopus" - [10]
• "The Judea desert trails and dirt roads are paint marked by the "National Committee For Trail Marking" - Crossing the Judea Desert, Israel

Canadian Monkey (talk) 19:31, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Let's see. The objective was to find support for the theory "the term 'Judea' enjoys widespread acceptance outside Israel today", and here we get:

• one instance of the term used 114 years ago
• one instance of the term used by a person who studied in Israel at the time
• one instance of the term used by a person who apparently lives in Israel now (at least his e-mail address is with this company, which only operates in Israel).

And those were your best examples... MeteorMaker (talk) 20:15, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't know where you got the idea that these were the 'best' examples - they were merely the first ones to pop up in a simple Google search. The person who took the pictures of the Judea hill country obviously did so while in Israel - be he is neither an Israeli, nor did he put the pictures up on his web site while he was in Israel (clue: the internet did not exits back then). So this is obviously a case of a the term being used TODAY, outside of Israel. Ditto for the last example - which is usage of the term today, on the international site of a multinational company, Toyota. I'll provide more examples shortly, while you think of ever more clever ways to move the goalposts. Canadian Monkey (talk) 02:14, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

It's a reasonable assumption that the evidence a person selects to represent his view is the best he has. Else, I don't see the point in putting it forward.

Daniel Kelly Ogden did indeed study at the Institute of Holy Land Studies in Israel when he took that picture and labeled it with "Judea" in the early 80's, as I've shown you. Roni Mandelbaum, an Israeli, has submitted a one-off article to one of Toyota's sites where he uses the word "Judea". That doesn't mean Toyota endorses the term, only that they don't censor material from freelancers (or even proofread it, judging by the amount of typos). The word occurs on Toyota's site exactly one more time btw - again in a letter sent in by an Israeli, Moshi Simha[11].

I will take a look at your new evidence now. MeteorMaker (talk) 06:53, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Here are a few more for you. As a side note, please stop removing every instance of "Judea" in Wikipedia and replacing it with "West Bank".

• “Moonlight on Judea” – [12]
• ‘In the Negev and Judea hills are formed as a result of these folds.” – [13]
• “Eshtamoa (A-Samua) - Large Arab village in the south of the Judea hills, about 22 km. south of Hebron. “ [14]
• The Texts from the Judaean Desert - Discoveries in the Judaean desert , By Emanuel Tov, Martin

G. AbeggPublished 2002, Oxford University Press

• “Desert of Judea” – http://joi.ito.com/moblog/entries/2004/11/08/003199.html
• ‘Desert of Judea’ – [15]
• “Bedouin Encampment in the Judea Desert” –[16]
• ‘The Judea desert has inspired mystical contemplation since ancient times.’ [17]

Canadian Monkey (talk) 03:37, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

I will assume that these are now your best sources in support of the claim "the term 'Judea' enjoys widespread acceptance outside Israel today", and not merely the next page that popped up in your simple Google search.

• Stephen R Conn consistently uses the term "West Bank" in the article. He never uses the term "Judea" for the area, except in the title, apparently for poetic effect.
• Amos Nur is a native of Israel.
• Susan Holuber, who runs the site, is also involved with the Jewish National Fund.
• Emanuel Tov is an Israeli who currently lives in the Netherlands.
• (Uncredited image, impossible to verify.)
• (Another uncredited image, impossible to verify.)
• Nir Oren is an Israeli.
• Lila Moore is, you guessed it, an Israeli. She currently lives in London however.

Re the alignment of WP articles with the accepted English usage of the word "West Bank", most of the changes I've made were reverts of changes that had gone undetected for some time. Alternative terms that obviously aren't widely accepted should not be frivolously introduced. That probably constitutes a breach of WP rules. MeteorMaker (talk) 07:50, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

So, I am not very surprised that the goal posts have now moved to the point where, if someone is “involved with the Jewish National Fund” (meaning, ‘has been the contact person for her Oregon temple’s fund raising efforts’), then their use of the term is somehow tainted. Really, this is getting ridiculous. Please find something better to do. Canadian Monkey (talk) 13:48, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

One - possible - non-Israeli remained on your list of supposed non-Isrealis that have used the word "Judea" online, and she turned out to have a web site where she pleads for donations to the Jewish National Fund. It appears to be reasonably easy to determine her sympathies towards Israel.

To avoid further accusations of "moving the goalposts": The claim by you, Jayjg and Jaakobou that the term 'Judea' enjoys widespread acceptance outside Israel today obviously excludes statements by outspoken Zionists around the world. Anything else would be like insisting Lord Haw-Haw was perfectly objective in his views. Even so, you have not found more than one possible instance of the word "Judea" on the Web that wasn't written by an Israeli, which I find telling. MeteorMaker (talk) 15:46, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

There's nothing surprising with people who use the term 'Judea' to be more sympathetic to Israel than those who use 'occupied territories'. The term 'West Bank', in case you were not aware has been in use since between 1948-1967, a whole whopping 19 years, Jordan occupied the territory. Do you have any sources to support your theory that the term Judea is rejected? Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 16:01, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

In addition to the evidence of non-use that you, Jayjg and CM produced? My web searches for evidence of widespread use of the term "Judea" outside Israel have also yielded nil. Besides failing to find the evidence you postulate, how do you suggest one goes about to prove a negative? ;)

I could of course point to the fact that no English-language, non-Israeli publications or news networks seem to use the term (other than in direct quotes and letters to the editor), not even traditionally Israel-friendly ones like FoxNews. Official maps outside Israel are consistently marked "West Bank" and not "Judea and Samaria". Official government documents and speeches also seem to use the established term "West Bank" rather than the one you insist should replace it on Wikipedia. MeteorMaker (talk) 16:32, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

The term is still in wide enough use today regarding current territory (rather than a biblical territory) so that this argument seems like an imposition to deem the 'Judea' title archaic, when that is not the case. This would be far easier if this was about clearly forgotten territorial subdivisions such as the Damascus Wilayah or Jerusalem Sanjak, but Judea is a term used today to refer to a current territory/region. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 18:12, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Where is it used today, Jaakobou? MeteorMaker (talk) 18:22, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Mostly in Israel. Happy?

Please work with others rather than reject every source given (above) on account that it's author is somehow connected with Jews.

Thank you, Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 07:19, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Your sources are sort of self-refuting, if you indeed set out to prove that the term "Judea" is widely used by anybody else than Israelis - as 9 out of 10 turned out to have been written by Israelis. I advise you to not misrepresent my views and try to cast them in an anti-Semitic light btw, that does not reflect well on your credibility and appears uncivil.

Now that you have confirmed that the term is used mostly in Israel, could you elaborate on why you advocate replacing a well-established English toponym with it? MeteorMaker (talk) 07:32, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) I feel this discussion has lost it's value; Certainly there is a problem if you feel that you've been accused of anti-Semitism as that was not my intention. I and a few other editors disagree with you regarding the interpretation of sources. To clarify, it is my opinion that anything published under "international" or "world", makes the point that it's an 'international' document, regardless if an Israeli or a pro-Israeli (Jew or not) was part of it's writing process.
With respect, Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 09:37, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

That is a pretty ludicrous unsupported statement. Direct quotes by anybody in an "international" document become the accepted "international" view at the instant they're published? Oe are you suggesting that verbatim quotes by, say, Yitzhak Shamir (one of your examples) should be censored when printed in a publication by the World Bank?

I accept your apology for accusing me of "rejecting every source on account that it's author is somehow connected with Jews". Don't confuse "Jews" and "Israelis" again. Should you overcome the feeling that "this discussion has lost its value", you are welcome back to try to support your claim that "Judea" is a valid term outside Israel. Until then, I must conclude that you have failed not been able to find such support. MeteorMaker (talk) 10:20, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Having now seen the evidence put forward, it's difficult to not draw the conclusion that the number of instances of non-Israelis using the term "Judea" for the West Bank is vastly overrated by the term's proponents. Of the 22 claimed instances that weren't uncredited or earlier than the last 2 centuries, at least 16 turned out to have been written by Israeli individuals or the Israeli government. Even if we generously assume the remaining 6 were all bona fide cases of non-Israelis using the term like the Israelis do (which is far from the truth, in fact not one of them was possible to determine with any certainty, and most of them have all the evidence against them), we find that those who claim the term "Judea" is widely accepted in the English language have their frequency estimate off by nearly 400% absolute minimum. MeteorMaker (talk) 16:47, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

What is it you wish to achieve on the article exactly? Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 22:13, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

It's stated at the top of this section: Modify the lead of this article to conform to that pattern [ie, of articles on historical regions (eg. Prussia, Germania, Livonia, Khazaria) using the past tense] in order to avoid misleading readers into believing "Judea" is a valid geographical term today. Suggested wording: "Judea or Judæa (Hebrew: יהודה, Standard Yəhuda Tiberian Yəhûḏāh, "praised, celebrated"; Greek: Ιουδαία, Ioudaía; Latin: Iudæa) was the name of the mountainous southern part of the West Bank area, now divided between Israel and the Palestinian Authority, during the periods of Jewish rule." MeteorMaker (talk) 06:10, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Your political agenda, ("in order to avoid misleading readers into believing "Judea" is a valid geographical term today") is supported neither by sources nor by policy. Jayjg ^(talk) 00:47, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Is "Judea" a valid geographical term today, Jayjg? If so, could you support that claim with something? If not, why do you feel that WP should switch to non-standard terminology? And please stop trying to make this a personal issue. You know absolutely nothing about my political orientation, and my political orientation is entirely irrelevant to the discussion anyway. I have presented facts to support my position and so should you. MeteorMaker (talk) 04:36, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Even if only Israelis or Jews used the term Judea, and they don't - as demonstrated - Christians use the term as well, it would be ok. To suggest otherwise would be antisemitic. I really don't know why you keep repeating yourself after I already refuted your claims. [18] Amoruso (talk) 19:12, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Since you apparently missed it, I must point out that your "refutal" was conclusively refuted in the post after:

I'd welcome some support for your claim that "practically all Christian following people, something like half the world calling it by this name", besides one link to a Israel-based Zionist website and one that reports on the "Third International Christian Zionist Congress", held in Jerusalem. And your link to the UN shows a list of titles of documents supplied by the Israeli government.  ;) MeteorMaker 07:17, 15 April 2008

MeteorMaker (talk) 21:32, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

And if I decoded yout first sentence correctly, you are using a highly unorthodox definition of anti-Semitism: The ideology of objecting to having words in your own language changed to ithe Israeli equivalent. MeteorMaker (talk) 21:58, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

You can see many more google results here [19] and on many travel guides etc, such as http://www.iexplore.com/cityguides/Israel/Jerusalem/The+Essentials

Let's examine this last source. We don't want it to be tainted by any Jews, Zionists, ZOG related people, and preferbly not religious Christians either, who may be ZOGgers or Zionists.

So let's see. The source is called IEXPLORE:

"Founded in 1999, Chicago-based iExplore is the #1 ranked website for adventure and experiential travel, with over 1,000,000 visitors per month. We are Google's "authority site" in the adventure travel category, and power adventure tours behind many trusted brands like Expedia, Travelocity, Travel Channel, Fodors, Frommers and Lonely Planet, to name a few. OUR OWNERS

Acquired in 2007, iExplore is an independently-operated division of TUI TRAVEL PLC, a multi-billion pound international leisure travel business based in the United Kingdom. Other websites in the Activity Division of TUI Travel include: Perigrine Adventures, specialists in Africa travel, Adventure Center, an adventure..."

Ok, so it seems all right. Possible problem: It seems to be affiliated with the U.S, notoroius ZOG country. However, it is also affiliated with the United Kingdom. This I would say somewhere in between, because UK is part of the axis of evil against Iraq but it also tries to boycott Israel etc.... what do you think ? Anyway, it says about Jerusalem: "Location: Judea, Israel". Amazing isn't it. It also says about the dead sea "flanked by the Judean Mountains to the west and the Moab Mountains to the east" etc. Amoruso (talk) 19:39, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Possible problem is that Jerusalem is in Israel, where the term is legit. We are talking about "Judea" as a term for the West Bank, which the site says nothing about correctly identifies as the West Bank.[20]. The original information was most likely supplied by the Israel Board of Tourism anyway. MeteorMaker (talk) 21:14, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Re the Google.il search you linked to, could you kindly put together a list of ten relevant hits you claim? Even I don't have the energy to sift through hundreds of pages of links to sites about biblical Judea. MeteorMaker (talk) 21:50, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Constantly moving the goalpost is an interesting tactic. In any event, reliable sources using the term have been provided. That is more than all is required. Jayjg ^(talk) 02:20, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Where do you see any goalposts moved, Jayjg? I have requested proof for your theory that the term "Judea" for the West Bank is in common use today outside Israel, and none has been produced. The anecdotal evidence you and a couple of others have put forward so far has been weak, sometimes flawed (eg Amorusos above, which isn't about the West Bank at all), and mostly contradicting your own theory (by being written by Israelis and/or consistently using the term "West Bank" instead). MeteorMaker (talk) 05:47, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Did the Israel Board of Tourism do it as a ZOG initiative or just in general? Hmm... interesting WP:OR there. iExplore is a reliable source. It uses the term Judea and uses the term Judean Mountains. You had no answer to this. You lost. Nobody said that it doesn't use the term west bank as well. You'd note that there IS a an article called West Bank. No one is trying to delete that one to push his POV. Accept that there are opinions different than yours in the world. It is a healthy advice for life. Oh btw, have a look at Category:Cities_in_the_West_Bank when you have time. Amoruso (talk) 08:02, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

It seems you didn't get the point, so I repeat it for you: Your link is about Jerusalem. Jerusalem (except the eastern part of town) is in Israel. It is not on the West Bank. It's thus irrelevant to the question if the term "Judea" is used for the West Bank, which is what you set out to find proof for. Your source also contradicts your claim, because it uses the accepted term "the West Bank" consistently when talking about the West Bank, rather than "Judea". Hope that cleared it up for you. MeteorMaker (talk) 08:22, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Interestingly, the article originally did conform to the "past-tense-for-ancient-regions" convention I have suggested it should adhere to. [21] It was apparently changed without discussion or consensus. That is yet another strong argument to implement the change detailed in the first paragraph of this section. MeteorMaker (talk) 09:18, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

User:MeteorMaker, there are multiple editors (I count four) on this Talk page who disagree with you , and none who agree with you. Whatever your feelings about the quality of the supporting evidence for the opposing position, you can’t just unilaterally declare your position to be the prevailing one. That said, I will, make one final attempt to convince you. I believe you are confusing two things: The use of “Judea” as a political designation (usually in conjunction with the term “Judea and Samaria”), and its use as a designation for a geographical region. It is true that in the political context, there is today a pretty clear dichotomy, with users of the term “Judea and Samaria” being identified with the one camp and those using the terminology “West Bank” belonging to another one. It is also true that in the political context, the term “West Bank” is much more widespread. However, this article is not West Bank, nor is it Judea and Samaria – there are other articles for those political designations. This article is about the geographical region known as Judea and its history, and the geographical region is not identical with the borders of the southern West bank, though there is a large overlap. In the geographical context, the term Judea is still in widespread use – as numerous examples already provided have shown. Your attempt to discredit such usage, on increasingly flimsy grounds, culminating in the disqualification of one source because it came from someone who coordinated fundraising for the JNF at her Oregon temple, is laughable. Here are three additional references – maps which clearly describe the region as ‘Judea’ [22] [23], or "Hills of Judaea" [24]. Perhaps one map maker’s aunt once had a neighbor who collected funds for the JNF, or perhaps the mapmaker of the other map himself once had a 7-hour layover at Ben Gurion airport on his way from Europe to South Africa – save yourself the trouble of such research, because it really won’t fly. You will either get consensus on this talk page for your position, or take it to further dispute resolution – but you will not impose your POV on the article in the face of consensus. Canadian Monkey (talk) 16:23, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

User:Canadian Monkey, I welcome your efforts to find support for the theory that "Judea" is in common use outside Israel today, even if it's merely anecdotal. Let's examine your three new claimed instances to see if they fare any better than your earlier ones that turned out to have been written either by Israelis or in the 19th century.

• Merriam-Webster clearly defines Judea thus:

Judaea, the S division of ancient Palestine under Persian, Greek, & Roman rule succeeding the kingdom of Judah; bounded on N by Samaria, on E by Jordan River & Dead Sea, on SW by Sinai Peninsula, & on W by the Mediterranean.

Note the (implied) use of the past tense, exactly how this WP article was originally written, and the tense other WP articles use for ancient regions. That is the standard this article should conform to.

• On the page your second link leads to, there are no less than 48 maps. Every single one has the area clearly marked "West Bank", except a couple of historical ones, and most also add "(Israel-occupied territory)". The one you are probably referring to is the CIA reference bilingual one (showing what the places are called in Israel and on the West Bank, eg "Nābulus/Shekhem", better known as Nablus in English), which indeed has the word "Judea" on it. In case you have concluded this means the CIA endorses the term, I recommend a simple search on their web site:

"Judea": Search found 0 documents from 7369 searched.

"West Bank": Search found 675 documents from 7369 searched.[25]

• Your third map does not have a region marked as "Judea". The term "Judean Hills" is, as I understand it, way less controversial than "Judea" and does indeed occur on the map, but that is as irrelevant as support for your claim as contending that the existence of the Rocky Mountains leads to the logical conclusion that there must be a US state called Rocky.

Now for your point that verifiability can be suspended if sufficiently many editors have tried their best to find support for a claim, regardless of the outcome. As you correctly observe, three editors besides you have tried to find evidence for the claim that "Judea" is a valid modern toponym outside Israel for the southern West Bank. The result so far:

Of 26 claimed verifiable instances of the term "Judea" used online:

• At least 17 have conclusively been shown to have been written by Israelis or people affiliated with the Israeli government (and whatever your feelings about it, nationality is not a subjective matter)
• One was written in the 19th century
• One was written by a person who studied at the Institute of Holy Land Studies in Israel at the time
• One was written by a person who works actively for the Jewish National Fund (your current best example, if I understand you correctly)
• One is a report on the "Third International Christian Zionist Congress", held in Jerusalem
• One, a travelogue, uses "West Bank" consistently and never uses "Judea", except in the title ("Moonlight over Judea"), apparently for poetic reasons.
• One is not about the West Bank at all (but uses "West Bank" consistently on other pages where it does deal with the area)
• Your three maps, see above.

And remember, this is the best evidence found by four highly motivated editors after three weeks.

Note that even if you had managed to dig up even a hundred bona fide examples of non-Israelis using the term "Judea", (and so far, you haven't presented even one that has held up to scrutiny), that would merely constitute anecdotal evidence. In order to support your claim, you have to find at least one reliable source that clearly states that the term is widely used in English today. I remind you that unsourced claims can be removed without consensus by any editor. MeteorMaker (talk) 19:46, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Additional thoughts: Seeing that we agree that this article is about the history of the region and not about the same-named controversial political modern entity (which, as you point out, has its own article), one might argue that the (apparently extreme minority) view that both denotations of the term can be presented as valid at the same time would create a serious potential for confusion. I assume we agree that it is a serious problem that "Judea" the historical region and "Judea" the current Israeli one-sided designation for the southern part of the West Bank bear the same name and might become conflated in the public mind. How would you suggest we best address that problem? MeteorMaker (talk) 22:35, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't see this 'serious potential for confusion' between the geographical entity and the politcal designation, but it is easily solved by adding "For the modern administrative district see Judea and Samaria" or something similar at the top of the article. Canadian Monkey (talk) 17:55, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Wouldn't that be an indirect implication that "Judea" is not a modern designation for the area? I think it's much more clear to write it explicitly, along the lines I've suggested above.

Compare to the unnecessary confusion it would create if "East Germany", the geographical area, had its own article, separate from the article on the DDR but mainly dealing with the DDR epoch, written in the present tense as if "East Germany" still were a valid toponym. A coterie of editors would reject all suggestions to adopt the past-tense-for-defunct-political-entities other WP articles and other encyclopedias use by pointing to a handful of examples of alleged modern usage of the term "East Germany" - which on closer inspection turn out to be either written by old East Germans wishing to re-establish Communist rule, or contrived misinterpretations of other texts. MeteorMaker (talk) 10:18, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

You are again conflating the use of “Judea” as a political designation (usually in conjunction with the term “Judea and Samaria”), and its use as a designation for a geographical region. Both usages are valid and modern, but they designate different things. You analogy fails in that there is no geographical area called 'East germany' distinct from the geo-political designation of "DDR" - they are two names for the same thing.

A better analogy is the Magreb. The Magreb were once, like Judea, a geo-political entity (8th century). That political entity, like the ancient Kingdom of Judea, no longer exists, but the term ‘the Magreb’, designating the geographical area between the Sahara, the Atlas Mountains and the Mediterranean Sea, is still in use, but is different from the modern geo-political term Arab Maghreb Union. In a similar way, the geographical term 'Judea", designating a geographical area straddling both Israel and the West Bank, roughly comprised of the hill country around Jerusalem and Hebron (the Judean Hills) and the Judean desert east of Jerusalem, is a geographical term in current use, which is different from the administrative district of Judea and Samaria, which lies entirely in the West Bank. Canadian Monkey (talk) 03:57, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

If even I conflate "Judea" the ancient region and "Judea" the unilateral Israeli designation for the occupied territory, don't you agree that there is a risk other people who read the article might do it too? ;)

It all comes back to "current use". "The Magreb" apparently is a term in current use, "Judea" apparently is not. If it were, the term's proponents wouldn't have had any problems finding conclusive proof of its modern usage in English. As it stands, we still don't have anything else than exceptionally weak, mostly self-contradictory anecdotal evidence for modern use of the toponym outside Israel. Contrast that with the mountains of evidence of non-use: No reference works, dictionaries, newspapers, networks, or official documents use the term for the present-day area, while "the West Bank" enjoys universal acceptance. MeteorMaker (talk) 08:49, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't think you should be the benchmark for the likelihood that others will conflate these quite distinct usages, but even assuming there's such a risk, I've alraedy provided you with the simple remedy for that hypothetical risk. It indeed comes back to current use. Many examples of current use were presented to you, which you proceeded to attempt to discredit on increasingly flimsy grounds, culminating in the ludicrous claim that we can't count the usage by someone who was coordinating her Oregon temple's fund raising. At that point, I really lost interest in trying to reason with you. Your refusal to accept evidence of current usage is not a compelling reason for us to change the article, sorry. Canadian Monkey (talk) 22:07, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

To recapitulate: you wanted to prove your hypothesis that the term "Judea" is widely used outside Israel, scoured the Web for several weeks, and returned with a handful of anecdotal and self-contradictory evidence that has been thoroughly refuted (see previous paragraph for a summary). Your current best example of outside-Israel usage is a quote by an unknown-nationality person who has been shown to work actively for the original Zionist organization in Israel, the Jewish National Fund. It should be clear to you that the paucity of evidence for your hypothesis is pretty good evidence against it, in addition to the evidence against it I've already shown. Still you insist that your hypothesis should be presented as fact on Wikipedia, uniquely among reference works. It's like dealing with a group of editors who demand that the article on mammoths should be written as if the animal were still extant, citing as proof a group of pranksters who always say "mammoth" when they mean "elephant", and a few blurry pictures of elephants where tufts of grass in the background could be interpreted as hair. MeteorMaker (talk) 08:52, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

I've provided you with current maps that use the term. I've provided you with academics who use the term, and I've provided you with ordinary people using the term. Enough. Canadian Monkey (talk) 17:58, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

You may have missed the refutals in the paragraph above. Short recap: More than three-fourths of your (verifiable) examples have been shown to have been written by Israelis, or deal with the ancient Judea, or with another area than the West Bank altogether. Of the remaining six, one is by a person who works actively for a Zionist organization in Israel, one is by a person who studied in a Bible school in Israel at the time, and one contradicts your claim entirely by using the term "the West Bank" consistently except in the title ("Moonlight over Judea"), apparently for poetic effect. Of your three maps, one doesn't label the region "Judea" at all, and in the remaining two, the mapmakers themselves have been shown to use "West Bank" consistently and never "Judea" outside the historical or local context, so you're clearly misinterpreting the maps.

And again: even if your alleged examples had been perfectly good and not so laughably weak, you would still only have provided anecdotal evidence for your hypothesis that "Judea" is a widespread modern toponym outside Israel. All the evidence indicates that it's no more valid as a modern toponym than the DDR, Khazaria, Germania, Livonia or Prussia, all of which are consistently described in the past tense in articles on Wikipedia and other reference works. This article should conform to that standard. MeteorMaker (talk) 19:03, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

You are misrepresenting the nature of the evidence, but I have no interest in pursuing this fruther with you. We are done here. Canadian Monkey (talk) 20:33, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Some kind of clarification how I "misrepresent the nature of the evidence" would have made your last post look less like an admission of defeat. MeteorMaker (talk) 20:48, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Begging the question and Moving the goalposts don't really work as arguments. Jayjg ^(talk) 00:06, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Neither do red herrings. MeteorMaker (talk) 01:00, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

MeteorMaker and everyone else: Please take the time to read through the following hypothetical statements:

— I moved to this little town in Czechoslovakia in 2005.

— I moved to this little town in DDR in 2005.

— I moved to this little town in Germania in 2005.

— I moved to this little town in Judea in 2005.

— I moved to this little town in Khazaria in 2005.

— I moved to this little town in Prussia in 2005.

— I moved to this little town in the Ottoman Empire in 2005.

My question is: Do you sense that there is any one example that stands out in any way here? Please take your time, and be honest about it. -- Olve (talk) 00:53, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Depends on your nationality, I guess. If you personally moved to a little town in the West Bank in 2005, you'd probably call the place "Judea". Myself, I admit I still tend to call the Czech Republic "Czechoslovakia" occasionally. MeteorMaker (talk) 01:04, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

To summarize: The use of the present tense in the first sentence of the lead ("Judea [...] is the mountainous southern part of the historic Land of Israel") has been questioned. Support for the claim that it is still called "Judea" outside Israel has been requested. This request has resulted in twenty-six pieces of anecdotal evidence, which all have been shown to fall in one or several of three categories:

• Self-contradictory (by helping affirming the opposing view, that only Israel and its citizens use the term "Judea")
• Irrelevant (by dealing with other areas or considerably earlier epochs than the present)
• Misinterpreted (by drawing faulty conclusions from the material. Case in point: The CIA reference map[26], which has the word "Judea" on it, like it has many other names that are used exclusively by locals. The CIA itself has been shown to never use the word "Judea" however). MeteorMaker (talk) 18:17, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

MeteorMaker: You have tried to prove that Judea is parallel to — and as extinct as — (your own examples:) “Prussia, Germania, Livonia, Khazaria” and it didn’t go too well. I also congratulate you on s swiftly granting me (and many others) Israeli citizenship — especially since I, for one, never actually set my foot there yet. Impressive.... ;) Bye. Olve Utne (talk) 06:25, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I haven't tried to prove anything at all, I have just asked for verifiable evidence that the area is called "Judea" outside Israel, and that "didn't go too well". You are welcome to try and find evidence that stands up a little better to scrutiny than what has been presented so far. It's not in my power to grant you or anybody else Israeli citizenship, and I don't understand where you think I have tried to do that. MeteorMaker (talk) 06:39, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

MM, we've been through this before. You asked for reliable sources using the term. Dozens were provided. You then kept inventing reasons why those sources weren't actually good, none of which held water. By the way, Hebrew and Arabic are the official languages of Israel. From what I can tell, the English language sources provided were all published outside of Israel. Jayjg ^(talk) 03:45, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Jayjg, this has been an ongoing debate for more than a month. You are as aware as I that the (verifiable) sources provided during this time have been pitifully weak — in fact better evidence of the opposite of what you and a couple of other editors have sought to prove: that the term "Judea" for the modern West Bank is in common use outside Israel today. I doubt you'd want to pick even one of the 26 and try to defend it.

Your objection that the sources "were all published outside Israel" (which is not entirely true either) does nothing to change the fact that the sources were all published by Israelis or direct quotes by Israelis, except a few that fell into the categories Irrelevant and Misinterpreted (see above).

If you insist Wikipedia should go totally against the apparent world consensus regarding this toponym, at least you could provide anything better that anecdotal evidence, laughably easy to refute at that. MeteorMaker (talk) 06:46, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree with Jayjg here, I felt you were forcing reasons to disqualify the sources. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 18:27, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I would appreciate if you could elaborate a bit on the factual basis for that feeling, preferably a little more eloquently than your earlier assertion that I "reject every source on account that it's author is somehow connected with Jews" (which in all fairness you did apologize for). For instance, do you feel that the list of cites you provided still is valid evidence for your position that the term "Judea" for the modern West Bank is in common use outside Israel today, despite the fact that 8 out of 8 were found to have been written by Israelis or people affiliated with the Israeli government? MeteorMaker (talk) 18:43, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

One element of that factual basis would be the disqualification of a source because its author also coordinated fund raising for the JNF at her temple. Another would be the disqualification of a source because it comes from someone who studied in Israel at one point in his life. You get the idea... Canadian Monkey (talk) 22:41, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I haven't disqualified those two, only said they're of dubious quality as evidence for your hypothesis. Maybe they don't fall neatly into any of the three categories above though. We don't know Susan Holuber's nationality, only that she currently lives in Oregon, works for the original Zionist organization in Israel, and runs a specialized travel agency where she sells journeys to what she calls "Judea". Daniel Kelly Ogden did indeed study at the Institute of Holy Land Studies in Israel when he took that picture and labeled it with "Judea" in the early 80's, as I've shown you. He was most likely taught that that was the proper name of the area, and things you learn in your formative years tend to stick.

I think you agree that more clear-cut examples of the term "Judea" used outside Israel are needed if you want to base an encyclopedia article on them, particularly one that goes totally against the commonly accepted use of a word. MeteorMaker (talk) 07:13, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Do you have any sources for your claims? Jayjg ^(talk) 01:50, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

It's all above in this section, but it is a lot of text to read. Susan Holuber: Here and here. Daniel Kelly Ogden: Here. The sore lack of evidence for the term "Judea" used outside Israel: Here, plus the fact that no major newspapers, networks, reference works, or governments seem to use it. Feel free to try and prove me wrong if you disagree with my observation.

Now, I have asked you before for sources for your claim, that "Judea" is such an accepted alternative name for the modern West Bank that reference works like Wikipedia should begin to use it. Still nothing after more than a month, besides the weak and self-contradictory anecdotal evidence we have discussed above. Given that Wikipedia's most motivated editors haven't been able to find proper sources, I'm inclined to believe such sources may not even exist. MeteorMaker (talk) 10:00, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

MeteorMaker, we get it, you're not so much a fan of the Jews. Regardless, although the Kingdom of Judea may be gone, the region of Judea still exists and there has been more than enough evidence here to support that. Of course most of the information comes from Israel; if we were talking about Wyoming most of the available information would come from the USA. -a

Please read WP:CIVIL when you have time. Your parallel falls flat on its face, because Wyoming is a recognized part of the United States. If Israel decided to call it "New Judea" in Wikipedia and other places, Americans would most likely not accept that. MeteorMaker (talk) 22:10, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

So, as user:74.85.6.194 observes, most (one could safely say all) of the instances of "Judea" for the West Bank indeed come from Israel. The conclusion is confirmed by the evidence presented above, which has conclusively been shown to be of Israeli origin to at least 95% (19 of 20 cases), where it hasn't been blatantly misinterpreted (6 cases). No evidence has been presented that remotely supports the claim that "Judea" is a widespread toponym outside Israel, despite the fact that the term's proponents have been given more than ample time. The case for Wikipedia going against what appears to be overwhelming world consensus is weak to say the least.

I have restored the original wording (that was deleted without consensus about a year ago) to better reflect this fact. Note: The claim that Judea still "is" the same as the WB area and not "was" is a separate issue that will be dealt with in a separate update. MeteorMaker (talk) 17:16, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

It seems to me that all the vocal anti-Zionists are disputing the use of the term Judea as part of their own agenda/s. And constantly employing the term Zionist/s in a pejorative manner declares such all too clearly. This debate is sadly riddled with ugly prejudice. Maybe instead of focussing on the dispute over the employment of the term Judea, one would better consider the alternative, which instead is to employ the disputed term West Bank. But the terms West Bank and Judea are not synonymous by any stretch of the most liberal imagination or historical revisionism. On the basis that there is no currently employed alternative term for the region known to many people today as Judea, what is the alternative? To invent a new term, to confuse matters more and serve anti-Zionist agendas? To simply deny that millions of people (Jews and non-Jews) recognise a modern distinct region as Judea? To employ the Jordanian (Arabist/anti-Zionist) term West Bank, which simply referred to the land it illegally occupied to the west of the Jordan river, as opposed to Jordan (the name for the land to the east of the Jordan river)? Jordanian occupation was never recognised by the UN, and in fact was recognised by only the UK and Pakistan. That is why according to any universally applicable interpretation of international law, there is in fact no occupation, in the legal sense, because you cannot illegally occupy what was never sovereign. Consequently, despite popular misconceptions spread by those with their own agendas, the term West Bank is in fact the more legally disputable term under international law, with its widespread usage being rooted in anti-Zionism and undermining once widely accepted (certainly in 1922 and 1947) biblical/historical claims that legitimised the creation of the modern State of Israel. Next you will be talking about Palestine in the time of Jesus, despite the fact that the term Syria Palaestina was not coined until a century after the widely recognised date of his widely recognised death. And the presumption that Israeli or Jewish sources are Zionist is a break with reality, especially academic sources. Such presumptions say much about the presumers. There is no shortage of non-Zionists in Israel and not just amongst Arab Israelis, either, nor in the Jewish Diaspora communities. Furthermore, is Wikipedia predominantly about facts or predominantly popular/pervasive opinions? Surely the later are catered for in critical sub-sections? And surely the facts are not subject to be determined by the one who can produce the greatest number of supporting sources for his or her perceptions? Anyone would think that historically the majority view was usually right or even on solid foundations!118.93.61.212 (talk) 15:30, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

User 118.93.61.212, please don't try to politicize this discussion, don't put words in peoples' mouths, and don't adorn fellow Wikipedians with labels they may object to. Thank you.

The question to be discussed is: Does the term "Judea" enjoy widespread use outside Israel? If not, Wikipedia should not give that impression. I have invited supporters of that theory to present proof of their position; after more than five months, none has been presented that holds up to scrutiny, while there is overwhelming evidence that "Judea" is not a modern English toponym for the West Bank area. For details, see above.

You object that "millions of people recognise [the] region as Judea", and I remind you that that was never in question — most Israelis indeed do, and Israeli Wikipedia has every right to use that term. However, this is English Wikipedia, and in English, the toponym is almost exclusively limited to mean the historical region, as we have seen. The modern area has a well-recognized and universally accepted name in English, the West Bank.

From what you write, I can't tell whether you're pleading for adjusting the article to reflect the majority view or to present the facts, but either way, I'd welcome it. If you have another understanding of the facts/majority view, some kind of factual support for the opinions you put forward would also be welcome.

"Constantly employing the term Zionist/s in a pejorative manner", if referring to organizations like the World Zionist Organization-owned JNF or the people behind the Third International Christian Zionist Congress [27] as Zionist is "pejorative", I think the term has lost all meaning.

"The presumption that Israeli or Jewish sources are Zionist is a break with reality, especially academic sources. Such presumptions say much about the presumers." Indeed. Both presumptions are ridiculous, especially the one that I hold such opinions. MeteorMaker (talk) 12:30, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Have you found any reliable sources for your original research? Jayjg ^(talk) 02:26, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, Jayjg, I give you the same reply I gave you the previous six times you asked that same question: I have only asked for evidence that the toponym "Judea" for the modern West Bank is used outside Israel. Again, it would be helpful if you could provide sources for that claim. If no sources can be provided, obviously the claim is original research and must go. MeteorMaker (talk) 09:53, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Are you still on this? To repeat: "Judea" is not (and the article does not claim it is) a toponym for the modern West Bank. This conflation of terms is yours alone. As explained before, "Judea & Samaria" is indeed a geo-political name for the modern West Bank, which is in use, primarily, by the right-wing part of Israeli politics. "Judea" , OTOH, is a geographical designation, which is widely used, by multiple sources outside of Israel. Enough of this game already. Canadian Monkey (talk) 01:13, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Toponym = geographical designation. Again, CM, if "Judea" indeed is a geographical designation, widely used by multiple sources outside of Israel, surely some kind of evidence should be easy to produce? MeteorMaker (talk) 08:27, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Plenty of evidence has already been produced - feel free to review the discussions above. Canadian Monkey (talk) 19:30, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Plenty of non-evidence has been produced, and it has been thoroughly reviewed already, several times more than the quality merits. The anecdotal evidence you and four other editors have put forward to support your hypothesis has been conclusively shown to be better evidence of the opposite — that "Judea" is a strictly Israeli term, as 95% of your verifiable cites are of israeli origin. MeteorMaker (talk) 21:53, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Have you found reliable sources that make the argument that the term "Judea" is used only in Israel? Jayjg ^(talk) 02:54, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, Jayjg, I give you the same reply I gave you the last time you asked that same question: You probably know that negatives cannot be proven. You say "Kangaroos exist all over the world", I say "prove it". If you counter with "Hah! Prove they don't!", I would say that's a pretty flimsy argument for presenting your view as fact in a WP article. MeteorMaker (talk) 07:33, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

You are not being asked to prove a negative. You are being asked to prove a positive, namely, to support the statement ""Judea" is a strictly Israeli term". If it is true, there will be reliable sources that say this. Using your analogy, if I said ""Kangaroos live strictly in Ausralia", and you said "prove it", I'd point you to this, which says "Kangaroos are marsupials found nearly exclusively in Australia, with some living in parts of Papua New Guinea" - and then we might go back and forth on where Papua New Guinea fits in this, or how to deal with kangaroos in zoos, but the statement would have support. Now, go and find a reliable source that says something akin to "the term "Judea" is used only in Israel". Canadian Monkey (talk) 20:02, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

That is in fact a bona fide request to prove a negative, which is generally considered impossible, and not good etiquette to ask of a fellow editor. However, I'm in a generous mood today, so I will do it even though I don't have to (but only in the WP sense of providing a link):

Only some right wing Jewish media in Israel and abroad now consistently and repeatedly use “Judea and Samaria” [...] The international media have adopted the term “West Bank” without demur in virtually every editorial piece they publish. [28]

But the fact remains, the burden of evidence is on the person who claims "X" exists. Now, go and look up "Is Judea a widely used toponym outside Israel?" on www.wanttoknowit.com. MeteorMaker (talk) 20:47, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Plese re-read what I wrote, carefully this time: Go and find a reliable source that says something akin to "the term "Judea" is used only in Israel". Not "Judea and Samaria", which, as I have already wrote several times, is a different term and a different concept, one which I have agreed with you is used priamrily by one side of the political debate. Read agian this article's topic: It is Judea, not Judea and Samria. These are two different things. Canadian Monkey (talk) 23:19, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Again (and please re-read what I've written several times), if you state "X exists", the burden of evidence is on you. You can't put up an article on checkered unicorns and refuse to remove it because nobody can find a reliable source that says they don't exist. If you say "The term Judea is widely used outside Israel", you must be able to prove it, or else you can't have an article that implies so. Enough of that discussion. MeteorMaker (talk) 09:18, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

When giving historical explanations please do not just use israeli sources but also palestinian. This article could be seen as biased or even as propaganda to any EDUCATED person! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.151.159.219 (talk) 21:56, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

'Meteor maker', your contentions simply do not dovetail with the facts.

First of all, attempting to delegitimize the term Judea by claiming it is not widely used outside Israel or Jewish circles is a red herring. You state that in order for one to prove X exists, the burden is on them to prove its existence. This would of course apply to an entity called 'Palestine' inasmuch as it would apply to Judaea. It is therefore a matter of semantics and not of strict legal definitions.

First off, you are incorrect in your definition that 'Judea', 'Judah',and related terms only applied to the mountainous southern portion of the West Bank during certain periods when they were under Jewish rule. It is true that the tribe of Judah was based in that area. It is also true that the pre-Exilic Kingdom of Judah was based in that area, as was the province of Yehud under Persian rule and Ioudaia under early Greek Seleucid rule.

However, after the Maccabee revolt and the rise of the independent Hasmonean kingdom in the 2nd century b.c.e., the term Judaea (Ioudaia) referred to the entire area under under its rule (including areas on both sides of the Jordan), in addition to the original core area associated with Judah. This situation is analogous to the entire country of Persia being called by this name historically, and not just the significantly smaller region of 'Fars'.

When Hasmonean Judaea became a Roman client kingdom and Herod was elected by the Roman senate as 'King of the Jews', the entire territory allotted to him (again, on both sides of the Jordan), was known to the Romans as Iudaea in Latin, and Ioudaia in Greek, not simply as 'Herod's kingdom'.

After Herod's death in 4 b.c.e., there were political reorganizations which saw the reassignment of various portions of Herod's kingdom to his successors, who were appointed as tetrarchs. However, the Roman Province of Judaea, established in 6 c.e. included all those areas of Herod's Judaea which were not under the direct rule of a tetrarch. Initially, the Province of Judaea included core Judea, plus Samaria and some coastal portions, but not Galilee, which was under the tetrarch Antipas. But in 38 c.e., Agrippas, the client king in Judaea took over Galilee, Perea, and the Golan region, and these areas became part of the Province of Judaea.

Hence, in the New Testament, Judaea can refer to both the historical core region of Judah and to the whole region that would later became known as Palestine. I refer you to this New Testament Greek Lexicon web page. http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2449

After the defeat of the Jewish rebellion in 70 c.e. by Titus and Vespasian and the destruction of the Temple, the whole region continued to be referred to as Judaea, as evidenced in Tacitus' writings in 109 c.e, who consistently refers to the entire area as Judaea (never as Palestine or anything else), and defines its boundaries:

"Eastward the country is bounded by Arabia; to the south lies Egypt; on the west are Phoenicia and the Mediterranean. Northward it commands an extensive prospect over Syria...Libanus is the principal mountain, and has, strange to say, amidst these burning heats, a summit shaded with trees and never deserted by its snows."

http://classics.mit.edu/Tacitus/histories.5.v.html

The same with the geographer Strabo:

"Phoenicia is a narrow country and lies flat along the sea, whereas the interior above Phoenicia, as far as the Arabians, between Gaza and Antilibanus is called Judaea" (Geography, 16:2:21; Loeb ed.).

Pliny the Elder similarly referred to Judaea in its broader sense in his 'Natural histories', naming as part of Judaea the fortress of Machaerus, now in Jordan.

In 135 c.e., when another Jewish rebellion broke out and was quashed by Hadrian, this entire region, and not just the southern portion, was renamed 'Syria-Palaestina', as a punitive measure against the Jews for their serial rebelliousness.

However, this should not be taken to mean that 'Palestine' should be viewed as a formal replacement for 'Judaea' for all time. 'Syria-Palaestina' over time was eroded as a distinct administrative unit, and was called by different names by different people who ruled over it at different times of history. For the most part, it was ruled as an integral part of Syria (or al-Sham during the Islamic period).

Interestingly enough, Judaea appears to have been put back on the map by Renaissance-era European cartographers. When it was not shown as an undifferentiated region of Syria, the territory in question was usually given the name Judaea (or Iudaea in Latin).

The favored ecclesiastical term for the region was, of course, 'Terra Sancta', and during the 18th century with the advent of secularization, the term 'Palestine' began to creep back into public discourse, though this was used to describe the general region of the Holy Land, not a specific territorial unit.

That does not mean, though, the term Judaea should be regarded as extinct or superceded. Indeed cartographers predating the era of modern Zionism adopted terminologies like 'Judean Mountains' and 'Judean Desert' to describe specific landforms. Nobody seems to question the legitimacy of naming an entire country, Lebanon, after what was historically a mountain range, Mount Lebanon, which is significantly smaller than Lebanon itself.

Since neither 'Palestine' nor 'Judaea' exist today as territories with established boundaries, it appears, therefore, this discussion is motivated by political considerations. In that case, what you called toMAYto I can call toMAHto. What you call 'Palestine', I call 'Judaea' or the 'Land of Israel'.

Jacob Davidson

Thanks for your long essay, "Jacob Davidson". I don't quite see the relevance, don't we all agree that the area was called "Judea" in pre-modern days? I don't really see where I have argued that "Palestine" is a more legitimate toponym than "Judea" either, so when you say red herring, I say straw man.

You say you are entitled to call the area whatever you want, and I don't disagree with that either, only with your ambition to make a WP article reflect your personal, unsourced opinion.

Do you have any post-19th century facts to bring to the table? I have suggested we revert the edit that changed the tense of the article from past to present, so that it reads "Judea [...] was the mountainous southern part of the historic Land of Israel". After all, that is the standard way to deal with ancient regions in Wikipedia. MeteorMaker (talk) 19:33, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

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