Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement
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See also: Logged AE sanctions
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For all other problems, including content disagreements or the enforcement of community-imposed sanctions, please use the other fora described in the dispute resolution process. To appeal Arbitration Committee decisions, please use the clarification and amendment noticeboard. Only autoconfirmed users may file enforcement requests here; requests filed by IPs or accounts less than four days old or with less than 10 edits will be removed. All users are welcome to comment on requests except where doing so would violate an active restriction (such as an extended-confirmed restriction). If you make an enforcement request or comment on a request, your own conduct may be examined as well, and you may be sanctioned for it. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. (Word Count Tool) Statements must be made in separate sections. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as personal attacks, or groundless or vexatious complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions. To make an enforcement request, click on the link above this box and supply all required information. Incomplete requests may be ignored. Requests reporting diffs older than one week may be declined as stale. To appeal a contentious topic restriction or other enforcement decision, please create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}.
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Rusf10
Rusf10 is warned against using purely personal opinion in place of policy-based argument when assessing the quality of sources. They are also warned against engaging in WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior and assuming bad faith in other editors. ~Awilley (talk) 03:41, 4 July 2018 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Request concerning Rusf10
1.June 26 Asserts, without evidence, that a living person (David Cutler) " hates Donald Trump". Also asserts that the subject (Cutler) is "fringe theorist" because "he's a professor, he's liberal, he's worked in Democratic administration". Apparently being a liberal academic automatically makes you "fringe".
2.June 25 "Drmies, is under the false impression that everything published in an academic journal must be true which is really no more intelligent than saying "I read it on the internet, it must be true"" - appears to say that stuff published in academic journal is no better than "stuff found on the internet". Again, a pretty fundamental opposition to our policy on reliable sources. 3.June 26 " You don't have any intent to follow WP:NPOV, since its clear that you here to push a certain viewpoint, so don't lecture me on policies." - Attacks other editors and ascribes motivations to them rather than discussing content. 4.June 26 Doubles down on the "hates Trump" BLP violating claim because... he looked at the guys twitter which apparently has some criticism of Trump's policies. It should be obvious that being critical of some Trump policy is not the same thing as "hating" Trump. More minor (at least IMO) but still problematic
N/A Note: @Fish and karate: despite what User:Lionelt insinuates, I don't have a topic ban on Donald Trump. User:JFG is also incorrect that I am "restricted" from that article. The only thing here is that I told NeilN, after he asked, that I'd leave the article alone for a few days. Also I have not cast WP:ASPERSIONS against anyone. I presented diffs in an appropriate forum. If you don't find these convincing, that's fine. But it's not aspersions, it's dispute resolution. You should also look at the diffs provided by User:MrX below. Note: In this diff I am pointing out that just because there is the "standard disclaimer" on the piece ("does not represent the views of blah blah blah"), that does not make it an opinion piece. Lots of peer reviewed publications have these, it's just legal ass covering. And while Newsweek may call it "an opinion piece" I was objecting and still object to the proposition that this academic source is in any way comparable to "opinion pieces" published as editorials in newspapers and magazines.Volunteer Marek (talk) 18:09, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
For BLP For post 1932 American politics
Here is the broader discussion. Rusf10 appears to have a... strange, idea of how academia and academic publishing works. He also appears to be reflexively distrustful of academic and scholarly sources. Several users, including User:Drmies and User:Neutrality have tried reasoning with him and explaining to him how it works, but it fells on a bit of deaf ears.
Discussion concerning Rusf10Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Rusf10This is a waste of everyone's time and should boomerang on Volunteer Marek just for bringing this here. Is he really trying to take me to AE because I said a professor "hates Trump"? Regardless of whether or not he truly hates him, its 100% he doesn't like him, so this request is really petty. What Volunteer Marek doesn't want you know is that I'm criticizing an opinion piece being used as a reliable source. I never said everything published in an academic journal is not reliable, but an opinion piece that has not been peer-reviewed with a disclaimer is probably not reliable. Any claim that 80,000 people are going to die should obviously be viewed with skepticism. And this edit came right after VM said "And again, your comment basically indicates that you have no intent of following Wikipedia's policy on reliable sources (you dismiss academic and scholarly sources out of hand)." [2], so how is what I said any worse? The reset of the diffs VM provided are even more petty, so I'm not even going to respond to them. One thing is clear, VM doesn't like his views challenged.--Rusf10 (talk) 08:46, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
@NeilN: In that diff, I was trying to make the point that an opinion piece published anywhere (including a medical journal) is still an opinion piece. Perhaps I could have said it differently, but this came after Drmies attacked me. Here is his comment which I was referring to [7]. Being that he is an admin, I took that to be a threat. And now he has come here and piled on even more personal attacks. Look at the diffs I posted, Drmies behavior is clearly unacceptable for an admin.--Rusf10 (talk) 02:22, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
@Drmies: Consider striking your response. First as reported by Bloomberg (last I checked, that's still a reliable source) "The essay, which was not a formal peer-reviewed study" [14]. Now either you're wrong or Bloomberg is wrong, which is it? It seems to me that you are the one who chooses to ignore reliable sources if they don't fit your POV.--Rusf10 (talk) 01:44, 30 June 2018 (UTC)
@Fish and karate, NeilN, Masem, Vanamonde93, MastCell, GoldenRing, Awilley, TonyBallioni, Bishonen, and Black Kite: I'm sorry to ping everyone again, but I really want to know how any of you in good consensus are about to let USER:Drmies off scot-free when he continues to personally attack me. Statement by LioneltCorrect me if I'm wrong, but isn't Volunteer Marek banned from the Trump article? – Lionel(talk) 08:49, 26 June 2018 (UTC) Statement by JFGContent dispute, RfC in progress, nothing to see here. — JFG talk 09:55, 26 June 2018 (UTC) @Lionelt: VM is only restricted from editing the Donald Trump article. This thread is about Presidency of Donald Trump. — JFG talk 09:55, 26 June 2018 (UTC) To admins reviewing the case: it seemed to me that AE's goal is to discuss editor conduct, not litigate content disputes. But since the discussion has evolved into an analysis of the disputed source's validity, let's take a look. Most of the comments supporting the use of this source as a credible study lean on appeal to authority: "the authors are recognized experts", "Harvard is a serious university", "JAMA is a reputable journal". Yes, yes, and yes, that is not the issue. The fundamental problem that is still being debated at the ongoing RfC and at RS/N, is that some editors are conflating JAMA as a peer-reviewed journal and the JAMA Forum, which by their own disclaimer, is only a repository for opinion pieces.[18] Special congrats to the reporting editor here, Volunteer Marek, who first seemed blind to what JAMA stated,[19] then waved it away saying "it's just standard legal-ass-covering and nothing more",[20] and finally came here while the content dispute is still in full swing to get a dissenting editor sanctioned. OK, that's an opinion piece which should have some more weight than a random blog because of the reputation of the writers, however that is still not more than an opinion piece, a fact that should be taken into account according to our sourcing policies. Usage of this particular report is problematic due to the dire consequences predicted, pinned on speculation about long-term effects of the recent relaxing of various EPA regulations. On its face, the source sounds like political scaremongering, and this is probably why it has been so much disputed, both at Wikipedia and in secondary sources. In light of this controversy, I would find it particularly wrong-headed to heap sanctions on an editor who forcefully defends one view of this study, while excusing other editors who forcefully defend the other side. Civility is not great on either side of the debate, so that AE sanctions for this reason would also be unfair. Again, that is a content dispute, let it be resolved at the appropriate forums. — JFG talk 10:52, 30 June 2018 (UTC) Statement by SPECIFICOAs documented in the diffs VM provided, Rusf10 has openly explicitly and repeatedly denied core WP sourcing policies and gratuitously defamed living persons whose professional work was under discussion on the article talk page. This user has failed to respond to the pleadings of numerous editors who have explained this problem and why such behavior is unacceptable. This editor has already drained way too much time and attention, and despite all these good faith attempts to redirect Rusf10's behavior, he has chosen to continue and to escalate his rhetoric. This user has rejected core WP policies and Guidelines and should be TBANed from BLP and American Politics articles. SPECIFICO talk 12:32, 26 June 2018 (UTC) Rusf10's insipid rebuke of Drmies is all the confirmation we need to know that he is unwilling to abide by WP norms in these articles. SPECIFICO talk 18:51, 26 June 2018 (UTC) @GoldenRing: The proposed article content stated the authors' finding as such and with attribution, not in WP's voice. These are notable scholars writing in the field of their expertise. Several times on the talk page it was pointed out, this would be valid article content even if it appeared in their self-published blog. Attempts to disparage the authors as "fringe" and WP editors as dishonest POV-pushers have nothing to do with any "content dispute". BTW, I also see similar over the top interpersonal interactions in this user's history in entirely different contexts. But at any rate, with the explicit Civility Sanction on the current article, there's not much question about his violations. SPECIFICO talk 11:56, 30 June 2018 (UTC) I'm puzzled as to why the only discussion among Admins now has narrowed to the detailed wording of a prospective warning when there were many Admins considering an indefinite TBAN. Even if the latter does not happen, there's a lot of daylight between that and a -- let's face it -- meaningless "warning". There's lots of disruptive behavior that might arguably be prevented by a warning. An explicit rejection of WP sourcing and content policy cannot be changed by a warning. (cannot be changed, that is, if we assume it was a good faith statement of Rusf10's understanding and belief and not a (blockable) bad faith gaming of the discussion thread. For the avoidance of doubt, I read it as the former. SPECIFICO talk 18:08, 2 July 2018 (UTC) @Rusf10: wrote, Statement by MrXAs evidenced by Volunteer Marek, Rusf10 is exhibiting consensus-inhibiting behaviors described in WP:GAMING, WP:NPA, and WP:BLP. Specifically, personal attacks, filibustering, ad hominems about academic sources and similar disparagement of living people, assumptions of bad faith.
A few of such comments could be dismissed as roughhousing, but the intensity and frequency have become disruptive. In fairness, I will say that Rusf10 has made a number of constructive comments at other article talk pages. Also, there is no basis whatsoever for sanctioning Volunteer Marek.- MrX 🖋 15:17, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
Statement by DrmiesI'm just baffled by some editors' opinions which betray a complete lack of knowledge of how science, publishing, and peer review works. That someone could think that an opinion piece in JAMA wouldn't be vetted is amazing to me, and that this would be equivalent to "something on the internet" is ... well. So in that sense, given that kind of lack of understanding, it may well be a good idea to ban them from sensitive areas. I just looked at all the opposes in the discussion, and one or two make the argument that it's UNDUE right now (User:Markbassett argued along those lines)--that's valid. What is different for this editor is not just the empty argument (they're not the only one) but also sort of nihilism which in the end undercuts RS, for starters. Drmies (talk) 16:35, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
Statement by SMcCandlishVolunteer Marek says, 'I ... object to the proposition that this academic source is in any way comparable to "opinion pieces" published as editorials in newspapers and magazines.' I looked and it is not an academic work. It's an opinion piece by academics published in the section for those in a journal. Just go read it. It is absolutely, positively an op-ed, not a science paper. The fallacy "It's in JAMA ergo it's a high-quality piece of academic research" is the same fallacy as "It's in The New York Times so it must be high-quality, secondary journalism." Publications have more than one kind of material, and an op-ed is an op-ed, an ad is an ad, a book review is a book review, and an advice column is an advice column (hint: all primary, not secondary). That an opinion piece in JAMA was vetted is immaterial; it's still opinion. NYT op-eds are subject to editorial review, too. The problem is the nature and purpose of the work. It's the kind of thing we'd use as "According to an op-ed by [Whoever], ...", iff the quotee was eminent and quoting their view was relevant and WP:DUE. Unlike some well-researched NYT op-eds I've seen, this one does not provide citations for the potentially secondary factual claims it makes, so we can't really evaluate them. It may be high-quality, but it's still primary. Both editors at the center of this are generally constructive. I'm inclined to stay out of the inter-editorial personality clash (the more recent-ish range of the WP:ARBAP2 topic area is a cesspool). I noticed at ARCA today that ArbCom is saying "Either have AE deal with this case-by-case, or open ARBAP3", and some parties lean toward the latter. I'm not sure there's much point in AE hearing mini-cases like this in the interim, but that's up to you all. This ultimately boiling down to treating an op-ed as if it were secondary science sourcing can be addressed head-on, however. It's a fundamental misunderstanding of our sourcing policies and guidelines. It's not constructive to try to bend our policies to say what they don't and fire up a huge pissing contest in the process. Just follow the damned policies. I think this may relate to a blind spot among the WP:MEDRS crowd more than to ARPAP2. It's a guideline subject to near-total control by a handful of editors and never subjected to thorough examination by the community. There's a serious conflict with policy in it which I've tried to address several times, and it directly relates to this matter: a belief that primary sources (even press releases and position statements) by respected medical publishers transmogrify somehow into "ideal" secondary sourcing. In a post today [21] at WP:VPPOL in a thread largely about ARBAP2, I explicated this in some detail – starting at "Even MEDRS has an error in it in this regard ..."). Update: Moved to essay page: WP:FMSP#MEDRS. I think this is worth RfCing, because the problems it's causing are clearly spreading from medical articles to other topics like politics.
Statement by KingsindianThis is mostly a content dispute. I fail to see how this behaviour rises to the level of sanctions. Rusf10 responded to an RfC and argued about the inclusion (or not) of an analysis by David Cutler. I mostly see good-faith arguments on the talk page by Rusf10. There is little or no disruption. The purpose of an RfC is to invite comments by a broad cross-section of people. This will necessarily include badly argued or incorrect comments. Claiming that a person X "hates Trump" is not ideal and Rusf10 should refrain from saying that. However, it's rather a stretch to claim that this claim is a BLP violation. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 13:03, 30 June 2018 (UTC)
Statement by MjolnirPants@GoldenRing:"Peer review", like almost every other jargon term, has two distinct meanings. The first is a formal system of review by properly credentialed experts prior to publication as an article in a scientific or scholarly journal, which usually occurs in a well-defined system, with rules and procedures. The second is that someone who knows what they're talking about read it and was okay with publishing it. This piece certainly meets the second definition, and I'll eat my shoe if anyone can prove otherwise. JAMA forums and the associated blog is not a Forbes site, where any popular enough writer can write about whatever they want. Hell, their about us page explicitly states that "we have assembled a team of leading scholars" to write the articles that appear therein, and I've yet to see an article on that site that isn't on a subject the author has immaculate credentials in. While these articles are subject to the usual disclaimers ("the opinions herein are those of the authors...," the same disclaimers that cover a huge swathe of our sources), JAMA clearly directed an effort to produce these articles. They were subject to editorial oversight. Let me reiterate that last, with some relevant details pointed out: They were subject to the editorial oversight of one of the most well-respected publishers of scientific literature in the world. To refer to that as "peer-reviewed" in an offhand way is unusual, but hardly without precedent, and not even close to unjustifiable. Hell, with the phrase "Let me just say that..." Drmies was explicitly laying that out as a heuristic; he wasn't saying "this article was peer reviewed" (which is defensibly true, as I just pointed out) but "you can think of this article as peer-reviewed, for all intents and purposes." In light of that, your comments about Drmies look like a failure to AGF at best, and a blatant personal attack at worst. I'm going to give you the same advice I frequently give to brand new editors, because it seems you need it: don't be afraid to ask for clarification if someone says something confusing or inexplicable. A strawman is a strawman, whether you built it on purpose or not. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 04:45, 1 July 2018 (UTC) Statement by DlthewaveWe can certainly discuss the provenance of the source, and Rusf10 makes a reasonable point regarding peer review, but this is not how we discuss sources. Statement by Seraphim SystemI don't think the JAMA article is the greatest source for the statement Statement by Beyond My KenI'm old enough to have lived through several periods of strong partisan divisions in this country, and I recognize that we're living through one of them now, perhaps the deepest one in many decades, but is concerns me that a Wikipedia editor would believe that simply because someone worked in some capacity in a Presidential administration, that automatically makes that person a die-hard Democrat, or Republican, or a liberal, or a conservative, to the extent that it totally overwhelms the credentials that got them the position in the first place.Yes, there are political hacks in all administrations, and some have more than others, but exceedingly few people in this country ever get called upon to work for the White House, and it's disheartening to think that any Wikipedia editor would believe that simply because someone answered that call to duty, they automatically chucked their learning, knowledge, good sense or morality out the window and became a blind automaton enslaved by Party dicta. Possibly that does happen to some who didn;t start out that way, but it can't (and shouldn't) be assumed that it happens to everyone, or even most of them. Just as we evaluate every source for reliability, each instance should be taken on an individual basis, determined by what is known about the person and their qualifications.To reject the views of apparently well-qualified people simply because of the assumption of bad faith based on their service in a Presidential administration or the like is simply wrong and should have no part in any discussion here on Wikipedia, where we should be (but aren't, unfortunately) above that sort of thing.So, in my opinion, if anything needs to come from this, a warning to Rusf10 that that kind of behavior is not acceptable here is that thing. Whether their other behavior is worthy of sanctioning, I have no opinion on, not having parsed the evidence sufficiently. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:54, 1 July 2018 (UTC) Statement by Sir JosephI echo everything Kingsindian said. I was hesitant to post anything, but I do feel that what KI said is what I wanted to say, among other stuff. I especially echo his part about Drmies' comment regarding Trumpers and about the "garbage" opinion, Sir Joseph (talk) 20:13, 2 July 2018 (UTC) Statement by PudeoSince the conduct of Drmies is being discussed as well, I was put off by his response to another editor with "I hear this all the time from gun nuts" at AR-15 style rifle (June 3 2018) Gun control is another topic covered by sanctions. GoldenRing is right here. --Pudeo (talk) 23:49, 3 July 2018 (UTC) Statement by Geogene"Gun nut" is a frequently used colloquialism, not a pejorative. I also think that digging an entire month into Drmies' edit history, and then complaining about something they said in a completely separate DS area, is unseemly. Geogene (talk) 00:27, 4 July 2018 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning Rusf10
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Icewhiz
No action. Sandstein 20:15, 7 July 2018 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Icewhiz
Discussion concerning IcewhizStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by IcewhizIn regards to the diffs above:
Icewhiz (talk) 07:05, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Beyond My KenIt's getting monotonous, I know, but I'm commenting to point out yet again the number of AE complaints that have been filed in the last few months over the Poland in WWII issue, indicating, yet again, that admins really need to step up their game and more aggressively police this subject area, which falls squarely under ARBEE. And, once again, I renew my suggestion that topic bans for the regular combatants on both sides of the dispute would be a good start. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:36, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
Statement by SMcCandlishConcur with BMK, and think some other editors' activities in the area need some examination. Virtually every time I run across a talk-page mention of Poland, it's about continued disputation over events leading up to, during, and shortly after WWII. It's as if the place did not exist outside this time frame. I get a lot of WP:FRS invites to RfCs, and Poland shows up strangely (too) frequently, always about the same stuff, and featuring too many of the same squabblers. I'm not an editor at these articles other than gnome stuff, and don't have an opinion on the pro/con this and that stuff (it really does look hard to research with certainty, and I don't have a background in it). So, I tried to moderate, for example, at Talk:Blue Army (Poland) from 2015–2017 (archives 4–6), and eventually just gave up. I've mostly stayed away for a year-ish, so any diffs I have are too old to be actionable. Just want to chime in that the perception of a .pl-related WP:ARBEE issue is not illusory. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 06:47, 4 July 2018 (UTC) Statement by KingsindianMost of the diffs above look like good-faith content disputes to me. I haven't edited in Poland-related matters, but I have some experience with Ukraine-related matters, where the same issue of "whether the Ukrainian famine was genocide" is debated (both by scholars and by Wikipedia). Calling something "genocide" is obviously a value judgement, and scholars often disagree. The case about Naliboki should be treated as a good-faith argument, imo. Thus, I feel that no sanctions are warranted here. I would like to, however, like to say to Icewhiz that comparing the Home Army to the Nazi party is a needlessly provocative statement, and is not anywhere near the scholarly consensus. There were segments of the Home Army which killed Jews, and some which collaborated with the Nazis, but the overall stance was neither of collaboration nor exterminationist anti-Semitism. For instance, Joseph Rothschild notes: I do not have any opinion about the broader matter. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 07:53, 4 July 2018 (UTC) Statement by Malik ShabazzI, too, support what Beyond My Ken has written. I used to edit articles related to Polish-Jewish history, but the recent invasion and disruption of those articles by ideological editors -- led by Icewhiz -- has driven me away from the subject area (except for undoing what I consider the most egregious excesses in POV-pushing}. It's time to start thinking about topic banning the whole lot of them. — MShabazz Talk/Stalk 08:12, 4 July 2018 (UTC) Statement by PiotrusI had no time to review the diffs here. My usual attitude is that bans or TBans are not a good solution, but it's not like anyone would listen to me. Recently two editors got TBanned from this, but this clearly had not helped. Perhaps unsurprisingly, as while one of those tbans seems reasonably sound (affecting an editor who has not to my knowledge contributed much content), the other targeted one of the more prolific content creators in this topic arena, author of numerous GAs and dozens of DYKs (see User_talk:Poeticbent#Unfair_topic_ban). So it's not only that (since last year or so) we have more disruptive and battleground minded editors running loose (people who were not active in this topic arena before, and it was much more stable and less prone to appearing at AE), since the last few weeks due to one of the worst AE calls in recent memory, one of the most constructive content creators is gone - so the ratio of flame/noise to good edits has IMHO significantly decreased. None of this, unfortunately, makes me think that an ArbCom will be any less random in their judgement as AE, I am just concurring that this topic arena is overdue for its 'what a random mole' game by AE's big brother. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 08:56, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
Statement by François RobereAh, the gang's all here... The analogy of AK to Nazi Germany was tasteless, but it's pretty clear Icewhiz didn't fabricate, falsify or misrepresent any of the sources; neither was he unduly inflammatory in stating there's a nationalist component to this debate, which is both common sense and something numerous authors wrote about. It's unfortunate that Molobo would choose to file an AE where there's no policy violation, and do so without challenge or warning. Regarding BMK's suggestion: As before, I support more active involvement by admins, and oppose mass bans. Mass bans are just indiscriminate punishment, and if that's what the "community" strives for, then it has lost its right to exist. A better course of action would be if some of the +500 or so active admins we have would just grow some balls (or ova, or whatever it is that gets Wiki admins going faster than a dead yeti). Want some good places to start? I opened this DRN following community guidelines, but some users refuse to participate. If any of them reverts an edit on the relevant page, smack them with a ban. Another? Two admins refused to enact sourcing restrictions on the entire topic area; why? Honest representation of sources is such a fundamental thing in academia, I can hardly think of a scholar who wouldn't get sanctioned if they didn't do so. Why not here? You'd rather dwell on these obtuse soaps-like ANI and AE sagas against individual editors, instead of enacting major (and needed) changes to how the community behaves. If all admins are willing to discuss are editor vs. editor conflicts, then editors will naturally focus on other editors rather than on content. If admins were willing to mediate content disputes, then editors would've naturally focused on content and argumentation rather than on other editors. Piotr laments PoeticBent's ban; PoeticBent was corrupted by the system, and by refusing to engage on a deeper level than "he stole my pencil, he took my icecream" you're encouraging the rest of the community to follow in his path. François Robere (talk) 11:43, 4 July 2018 (UTC) @Ealdgyth: Your involvement is appreciated, not least because we need more unbiased editors on these articles. Your source review was useful, and will be followed up. François Robere (talk) 09:52, 5 July 2018 (UTC) Statement by EaldgythI'm entirely too involved in the subject area to act as an admin, but it's getting beyond ridiculous in the topic area. After the last round at AE, I tried to bring the discussion around to the actual article content with Talk:Koniuchy massacre#Sourcing..., where I specifically stated I didn't want to discuss who added the problem bits - that we should just concentrate on the content. Others can judge how well that went by the replies. The article was full-protected right as I was spending a couple of hours going through all the sources, so in theory, everyone should have been forced to discuss on that article's talk page - instead it appears to have just moved to other pages with the same "discuss the other editors" behavior. This attempt at discussing sources was after a long discussion on my talk page at User talk:Ealdgyth#WP:AE which rapidly degenerated. I even tried to explain how the problems were being seen by outsiders here, but it doesn't seem to have registered or been heeded. There is entirely too much discussion of other editors going on, which fuels the acrimony and thus it becomes a never-ending cycle that just changes articles but never behavior. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:06, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Seraphim SystemRegarding this [36] - no, it's not "Fringey", quite the opposite. The whole thing is Lebensraum. There are multiple sources that discuss Lebensraum as a genocide, including Bloxham's Oxford Handbook [37] so calling it the "polocaust" or otherwise refusing to get the point and work with editors is part of the problem. The debate is over the term "Holocaust", presumably, but conduct on both sides is far from stellar and as long as it continues it will drown out any hope of reaching a consensus through reasonable discussion about how to best accommodate this - a solution that would probably include clearly linking to and improving other articles instead of burying and minimizing. This is where the underlying problems become more apparent. Seraphim System (talk) 13:25, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
Statement by NishidaniThere are irrational components on both sides of this, of course. My impression is that Icewhiz is seen as spending a huge amount of time and effort (some of the materials he brings up are nonetheless cogent on specific points) singularly on Jews versus (other) Poles, and seems wholly insensitive to a general overview, i.e. that the Poles experienced a level of Nazi destruction unheralded in any other area occupied by Germany; that 6,000,000 died, of which, yes, 3,2 million were Jews; that Poland, compared to many other 'Slavic' countries, both resisted German claims, was invaded, fought back, was denied an administration, and Poles were subject to the death penalty if caught sleeping with Germans, that the Generalplan Ost for postwar implementation, foresaw the deportation, extermination or ethnic cleansing (Völkische Flurbereinigung) of Polish lands of 80-85% of Poles; that no SS Polish division was ever raised, unlike what happened in many other 'Slavic' countries. Polocaust/Polokaust like Pallywood is offensive contextually (one thinks of old German stereotypes of Poles as 'pissed as a fart' (polenvoll); or polnische Wirtschaft which has the same connotation as Avoda aravit(Arab labour) in modern Hebrew, etc.etc.etc. (See, to cite just one small study - the field is far more complex than what Icewhiz makes out - John Connelly, 'Nazis and Slavs: From Racial Theory to Racist Practice,' Central European History, Vol. 32, No. 1 (1999), pp. 1-33. Poles are justifiably extremely sensitive about these, as are Jews. It is understandable that in ethnic conflict articles, partisans of either ethnos see only their national perspective, but WP:NPOV apart, solid history is not written by conducting endless negotiations between maximalist positions. It's written with a cold eye to the overall picture, and a sympathetic eye for all victims of a tragedy. Nishidani (talk) 17:28, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
Nishidani (talk) 19:49, 5 July 2018 (UTC) Statement by Vanamonde93Posting here because since the last AE I've discovered some content interactions I had with IceWhiz, that were minor enough that I didn't remember them earlier. I flagged the first diff presented by MLoboaccount in the previous AE discussion. However, Icewhiz acknowledged the error in page numbering soon enough, and I see no reason to believe it was more than an honest mistake. The rest of this is mostly hot air: unless there's specific history I'm unaware of, I don't see that calling someone a "polophile" is a dreadful insult, though it's not ideal behavior. Similarly, I'm not seeing clear-cut evidence of source misrepresentation (and yes, I did read the screenshots that have been presented). Unless we're t-banning a bunch of editors (and that's a solution I've supported before, and may be okay with here), I don't see a need for sanctions in this case. Vanamonde (talk) 18:02, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Volunteer MarekI was planning on filing the following evidence in my own WP:AE report, particularly because it focuses on BLP violations. But since this is already open I'll post it here. Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Editing_of_Biographies_of_Living_Persons Notice of DS awareness: [38] Since he got involved in editing the topic area Icewhiz has made numerous BLP violations, in particular against living historians that disagree with his POV. The sequence of events in this regard always unfolds in the same way:
Here is the list of BLP violations and historians Icewhiz has attacked:
Icewhiz writes "One should also note that in 2008-9 there was a wave of (…) publications in Poland (…) and that at least some of these reactionary pieces (…) were accused of anti-Semitism." [39] Icewhiz falsely insinuate that a living subject, historian Dr. Krajewski has been “accused of anti-Semitism”. He provides a source [40] which is about ANOTHER publication being accused of it, not Krajewski. In the relevant section, the entire discussion is about Krajewski [41], no other author or source is mentioned, so to a regular outside reader it will most certainly appear from Icewhiz’s statement as if it’s Krajewski who’s been “accused of anti-Semitism”. When confronted about this BLP vio [42] Icewhiz neither explained nor struck his comments. Needless to say, Krajewski has NOT been accused of anti-semitism (afaik). Indeed, he’s cited approvingly and extensively by Holocaust scholars such as Joshua D. Zimmerman [43] Leonid Rein [44] Timothy Snyder and Elezan Barkan (et. al) among others Note Icewhiz claims that "I specifically excluded him" - this is completely false.
Icewhiz falsely misrepresents a source by changing "post-Stalinists" (source) to "American Jews" (Icewhiz’s words) [45] in order to make the BLP subject appear anti-semitic. Neither the word “American” nor “Jews” appear in the source [46] When asked about this edit, Icewhiz excused himself calling this smear of a living person a “mild form of OR” [47] (!!!!!!) Icewhiz falsely misrepresents a source by claiming that MJ Chodakiewicz "wrote a column in which he described an on-going genocide against whites by blacks in South Africa”. [48]"This is false. In the very first paragraph Chodakiewicz writes “There is no genocide, but it is true that they have been subject to violence”. To be fair to Icewhiz, the headline attached to the article misrepresents the text as well, but then why is Icewhiz using WP:PRIMARY sources to attack BLPs in the first place? Another case of "mild form of OR" I guess.
Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:38, 6 July 2018 (UTC) Statement by My very best wishesI think the last comment by Nishidani was insightful, but... The problem here is the collision of different POVs. Which POV, exactly? Icewhiz tells about it in his statement (#10, green, "partisans of the Home Army — those clandestine forces in Nazi-occupied Poland loyal to the Polish government-in-exile — were just as dangerous to Jews as were the Nazis."). Just as Nazi. Yes, I understand, this is a quotation from here, but one should read the entire source, and it was written to say something different ("New research, however, demonstrates..." etc.). Can such "Polish anti-Nazi=Nazi" POV be justified as a "majority view" of scholarly sources? No, it definitely can not, even considering the description of the controversy by Nishidani (diff above). The actual question under discussion is different: was the effort by the Polish Government in exile to save Jews significant enough? Yes, there are different opinions about it. Overall, the behavior by Icewhiz looks rather problematic to me. I said this before [49]. My very best wishes (talk) 15:19, 5 July 2018 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning Icewhiz
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Volunteer Marek
Volunteer Marek and Icewhiz are topic-banned from the history of Poland in World War II (1933-45) for three months for treating Wikipedia as a WP:BATTLEGROUND. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Volunteer Marek
VM has also been showing up quite frequently at articles I've edited, including articles he's never edited, and his main contribution has been reverting - see editor interaction tool with 1 March 2018 start date. There are also issues with misrepresenting Polish language sources (general stmts on Jews in an area => specific Jews, specific Jews => general stmts on Jews), which I did not present, but diffs are available (requires reading the Polish).Icewhiz (talk) 06:40, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Volunteer MarekStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Volunteer MarekLol. Obvious "revenge report". Did I mention Icewhiz has a WP:BATTLEGROUND problem? Since April of this year - in the last three months, there has been a total of ELEVEN WP:AE reports in this topic area. For comparison, between April 2015 and April 2018 there have been FIVE total reports in this topic area. This means that regarding Eastern Europe, there have been twice as many reports in last 3 months as there have been in the preceding 3 years! Something's obviously not working. Guess what the common factor is? That's right, all eleven of those reports had involvement from Icewhiz (6 as filer, 5 as subject, 1 as commentator casting WP:ASPERSIONS). Why is April 2018 the month in which the number of WP:AE reports in EE just exploded? Well, March 2018 is when Icewhiz began editing this topic area aggressively, quickly coming into conflict with every established editor in the topic area, from User:Malik Shabazz, to User:Piotrus, to User:E-960, to myself, to users which avoid WP:AE (such as Chumchum7 and Nihil novi). Why has he pursued this strategy? Because his behavior has been tolerated and rewarded. And this is of course ignoring all the WP:AE reports that Icewhiz has been involved in other topic areas, such as Palestinian-Israeli topics. He uses WP:AE as a weapon. And admins here tolerate it. Anyway. #1 not a PA. I sincerely couldn't understand what the user was saying. #2, #3 not an aspersion but explanation of policy to a user who showed up to support Icewhiz in an edit war and make WP:IJUSTLIKEIT votes in support of Icewhiz, without prior engagement on talk. #3 uhh, what? Wait, wait, wait... #4 isn't even from this topic area. Icewhiz is just diff-stuffing. 6,7,8 - yes, comparing the main Polish anti-Nazi organization to the Nazi party is extremely biased not to mention offensive. Only reason I can think of why Icewhiz would make such a claim is that he was attempting to provoke other editors ... so that he could use the diffs at WP:AE. Hey! That's exactly what he's trying to do! Whoa! This is covered in MyMoloboaccount's report above. 9 Actually Icewhiz has already brought this one up at User:NeilN's talk page [52]. NeilN already explained to him [53] why this wasn't a problematic statement. So this is Icewhiz WP:FORUMSHOPPING for a sanction. 10 Same as #9, already discussed at NeilN's page. And yes, the source did have serious nonsense in it (it claimed that a local partisan commander and a major in Abwehr had the authority to negotiate over Poland's post war borders!) 11 Same as #9, already discussed at NeilN's page. 12 ... just ridiculous. Criticism and evaluation of a source is not an "attack". 13 Same as #12. The individual in question is actually a photographer. 14 Content dispute, discussed extensively on talk. After failing to obtain consensus for this material in early June, Icewhiz snuck back to the article about a month later and tried to reinsert his WP:OWN version again, without discussing on talk. I have no idea how there is suppose to be a BLP issue here. Icewhiz regularly makes false allegations along these lines. See for example this discussion where Icewhiz made particularly fantastical false claims of BLP vios. I didn't include that in my report above so as to keep it concise. But if you want to see WP:GAMEing in action, there you go. 15 This was shortly after Icewhiz was caught falsifying sources and using far-right anti-semitic sources on the Chodakiewicz BLP as described in my report above (though that happened earlier, it wasn't discovered till then). 16 Argument on User:Ealdgyth's talk page. What exactly is suppose to be actionable? There was no "HOAX". Icewhiz was just using hyperbolic language to attack and misrepresent other editors. 17 Again, not everything that Icewhiz disagrees with is a "HOAX". The fact that he chooses such language is a problem itself. This one actually demonstrates just how WP:BATTLEGROUND Icewhiz's approach is. See discussion on talk [54]. Initially Icewhiz argued that Dov Levin was being misrepresented. I disagreed, because, well, he wasn't (certainly not a "HOAX"). Then Icewhiz said that Levin's statement does not specifically mention this locality. I say "hmm, that's a good point" and remove it myself. So, I agree with Icewhiz and do what he wants, yet... he still comes running here with that diff!!! That's some low shit. You can see him actually getting frustrated with me agreeing with him (because that makes it harder for him to try and use this diff to get me sanctioned! How dare I?!?) in this comment where he tries to keep arguing or pretends that I haven't just agreed with him, even after I have. This report just shows how dysfunctional WP:AE has become in the past few months. You incentivize bad behavior, you get bad behavior. (note: Icewhiz went back and changed his ordering and numbering of his diffs, so I don't know if my responses match up properly. I'm not going to waste my time chasing his numbering around) Other WP:TENDENTIOUS and WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior by Icewhiz User:Vanamonde93 mentioned lack of conciseness above, but honestly, if I were to bring every instance of Icewhiz's disruptive behavior to AE it would go on for pages. So, the following episode would be sufficient basis for a separate report on Icewhiz, but since here we are... It illustrates perfectly why it's impossible to have a normal content discussion with Icewhiz, how combative he is, how petty and antagonistic, and how he engages in WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT behavior which drives everyone who is forced to deal with him nuts.
This is WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT to a tee. It creates an impossible situation. It's badgering. It's antagonistic. It's WP:BATTLEGROUND.Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:56, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
Statement by PiotrusI am curious if this time Sandstein will find time to review more then 3 diffs. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 08:21, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
Statement by François Robere
Earlier examples:
Admin notifications: This attitude isn't helpful or fun. François Robere (talk) 11:27, 5 July 2018 (UTC) @Beyond My Ken: This isn't only a matter of group membership, it's also a matter of group dynamics. Some of the other editors are perfectly amiable to discussion and compromise, but when you have people like Bella [84] or Marek around they tend to either disrupt the discussion or affect the rest of the group in ways that are counter-productive. We've already seen some progress since Bella was removed; I believe that if this AE request is accepted things will shift. François Robere (talk) 18:34, 5 July 2018 (UTC) @GoldenRing: Statement by Beyond My KenThis entire situation has moved past ridiculousness into farce. This is very close to a zero-sum situation: either Volunteer Marek and MyMolobyAccount and friends are right, or Icewhiz and Francis Robere and friends are right. These can't both be the case at the same time. One of these two parties is distorting historical fact and using unreliable sources to do so, or misusing reliable sources, and somebody with authority needs to sort through all these claims and diffs and find out who is telling the truth and who is dissembling. It is no longer enough to punt, these need to be settled, or it's going to go on ad infinitum. It is not a matter of a mere content dispute, the very legitimacy of Wikipedia is at stake. We cannot allow our articles to be based on the misrepresentation of reliable sources or the use of unreliable sources, so which ever group is doing so needs to be stopped and shut down. Beyond My Ken (talk) 13:32, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
Statement by EaldgythBMK - feel free to take my source check here and figure out who added what to that article. It took me quite a while to do that and I was trying to model good editing behavior by not digging further to find blame. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:22, 5 July 2018 (UTC) Statement by WBGEcho BMK word by word.∯WBGconverse 14:24, 5 July 2018 (UTC) Comment by SN54129Those diffs of Icewhizz' require rather an elastic interpretation of the policy ("personal attacks"—upon sources?). If this filing is deemed retaliatory, then, of course, there is only one immediate course of action to be taken here. —SerialNumber54129 paranoia /cheap sh*t room 15:39, 5 July 2018 (UTC) Statement by יניב הורוןUser:My very best wishes: Regarding your comment, I think you made a mistake. Refering to a "green" statement Icewhiz made - which he did not actually make - he was quoting a Holocaust historian's assessment of the former literature. Icewhiz actually did not offer his own opinion (which is probably inline with Zimmerman's opinion - and differs from the quote of prior research) - he quoted a fairly respected scholar.... That's not POV pushing!--יניב הורון (Yaniv) (talk) 17:23, 5 July 2018 (UTC) Statement by Rusf10I really don't have enough knowledge of the topic to know who's right or wrong in the content dispute. Yes, it should be a long-term goal to figure that out, but its not going to be decided here. What is clear is Volunteer Marek's behavior is extremely disruptive. His constant personal attacks should result in sanctions. He also made unsupported claims of collusion among other editors. His claims that another editor is making too many AE reports is laughable. Overall, Volunteer Marek makes more AE requests that any other single editor. When doing research on AE requests related to Donald Trump, we found that he was involved with 15 cases over the past two years and of those he filed 8, more than any other editor. [85] Over the same two-year period Volunteer Marek filed 18 AE requests overall. In contrast Icewhiz filed only 11. Many of volunteer marek's requests are frivolous, with at least Statement by TryptofishI had not planned to comment here, but the assertion that filing 18 AE requests is a problem, whereas filing "only 11" is not, seems to me to be rather creative quantitative reasoning. The link to the sandbox study is a link to something that reflects the problems with the AP2 topic area, and the data there should not be taken at face value. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:16, 5 July 2018 (UTC) Statement by My very best wishesFirst of all, I agree with GoldenRing and NeilN suggestions, i.e. to request that in the subject area "Only high quality sources may be used... Anyone found to be misrepresenting a source...". This is main issue here, not the alleged incivility or whatever. But I do not think that only English-language sources can be requested. Doing so would be against the policy and beyond the mandate of this noticeboard. Yes, WP:MEDRS might be a good approximation, but it needs to be modified for the area of history. Now, speaking about misrepresenting a source, there is an example of this by Icewhiz: (diff #10 in the previous request). Using this source to justify and promote the idea that the partisans of Home Army were just as dangerous to Jews as were the Nazis is an obvious misrepresentation of this source. In this example, Icewhiz selectively quotes whatever he likes, instead of reading and objectively summarizing the entire publication, just as he fights with historians and sources he does not like. Please see the comment by Nishidani in the previous request for more detail [86]. Was VM engaged in such misrepresentations? No, I do not see it at all.My very best wishes (talk) 16:13, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
Statement K.e.coffmanThe recent AE filings have brought to the surface problematic sourcing and material in articles touching on Polish-Jewish relations during WW2. Some examples:
If I were to pinpoint where the issues exists in Wikipedia articles, it would be the use of shoddy sources and inappropriate synthesis, resulting in distorted content such as the above. I agree that some articles (i.e. Home Army) are a can of worms due to evolving historiography and conflicting academic positions, as GoldenRing points out. However, the murder of Jews during the early months of Barbarossa is not such an area. The scholarship is clear and unambiguous.
K.e.coffman (talk) 00:14, 6 July 2018 (UTC) Statement IrondomeWe are in a very difficult position due to current profound disagreements between governments and academic schools of thought on this topic. [[89]]. This, for instance is the latest Yad Vashem statement. The project can only record what is stable and consensual in the academic real world. I would support K.e.coffmans assertion that "Shoddy sources and inappropriate synthesis" being a major factor in our present trouble. I would support K.e's second proposal in the longer term, and in the meantime adopt his first proposal. Irondome (talk) 00:56, 6 July 2018 (UTC) Statement by Malik ShabazzI support what Volunteer Marek wrote. It's time for admins, Sandstein in particular, to stop sheltering Icewhiz and encouraging his behavior. On 30 May, I warned Icewhiz about his disruptive behavior. He e-mailed Sandstein, complaining that I had violated a topic ban two weeks before the topic ban had been imposed. Even more outrageously, Sandstein accepted his accusations at face value. Either Sandstein is a moron or an idiot, but he has no business being an administrator, certainly not passing judgment on those with whom Icewhiz battles. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 01:25, 6 July 2018 (UTC) Statement by Paul SiebertThese two AE requests actually reflect a broader collision, and this collision is a clash between local nationalistic narratives in the areas that are not in the scope of a broader scientific community. In a situation when high quality sources describing these events are scarce, local writers, journalists or fringe theorists privatised this area and advocate a very specific point of view that support one or another nationalistic myth. Accordingly, some users non-critically choose the sources advocating one or another myth, and in that situation "a plague on both your houses" seems a very reasonable approach. In this battle of nationalistic narratives, poor, questionable and obscure sources become an essential tool. Accordingly, instead of banning certain users, which inevitably is a temporary solution, it would be more productive to apply more strict rule for source selection. That would resolve not only this particular problem, but many problems in this area. I think, Wikipedia in general will benefit if we decide that the articles describing historical events that are covered with ARBEE should be written primarily based on peer-reviewed sources written in English, because western authors are more neutral when they write about EE, and majority of good EE historians either publish their works in the West, or their books or articles are being cited by western peers. In contrast, questionable and poor quality local sources are being essentially ignored in the West. By applying more strict rules in the EE area, we can eliminate the ground for many conflicts. Possible rules may be as follows:
I realise that these rules may lead to deletion of some articles. However, I don't think it is a big problem, because if no good quality sources exists about some topic, Wikipedia as whole will benefit from deletion of such an article: it is better not to have an article at all than to have an article written based on some obscure writings. I think we can easily clean Wikipedia from a significant amount of questionable content if we take these measures in the ARBEE area. For example, such a "renown" author as Volodymyr Viatrovych (one of major nationalistic historians in Ukraine) was cited in the West just 3-4 times, some of citations contain a serious criticism. That means, this "scholar" essentially is not existing for international community, however, his writings fit Wikipeda's sources policy. By applying the procedure proposed above, we can easily get rid of most of highly questionable claims that can be found in Viatrovich's books and decrease tensions around many EE related articles. I am pretty sure the same will work for the articles about Polish, Lithuanian, Russian etc history. --Paul Siebert (talk) 03:18, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
Statement by SMcCandlish
Statement by MyMoloboaccountAs to Paul Sieberts statement, I have to strongly disagree. We can't change overnight rules on reliable sources that were made in different process and required extensive discussion. Some of the topics of Wikipedia aren't researched in the West at all, others have little coverage.As such information about these will be only found in local reliable sources, however still fulfilling WP:RS criteria. For example information about Wehrmacht war crimes in 1939 Poland is mostly covered by scholarly publications in Poland and there is little information about them in Western sources when it comes to details.Likewise a lot of information about atrocities and resistance in communist occupied Europe will be only found in local sources that of course need to fulfill WP:RS criteria.Again, research or coverage is often scarce in Western literature. We have WP:RS as guidance and for example to ban reputable, scholarly sources if they weren't discussed by Western publications seems too much to me like suble historic colonialist attitude.Also such decision would effect such wide range of articles that much wider discussion than here would be needed to enact such policy.As Wikipedia is a global project, we can't restrict our sourcing to just sources in Anglosphere world. However I think one of the problems is using authors that have been widely criticized as having bias or have been controversial. If a view has been widely seen as controversial and is subject to debate, it should be restricted to the author and not be a basis for writing the whole article from such point of view.I would also be fine with restrictions demanding only high quality sources may be used, specifically peer-reviewed scholarly journals and academically focused books by reputable publishers or that anyone found to be misrepresenting a source, either in the article or on the talk page, will be subject to escalating topic bans.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 06:39, 6 July 2018 (UTC) Statement by Seraphim SystemRegarding the above proposal, I think the deletion of articles where foreign language sources are needed to establish notability would be a problem. Instituting this kind of restriction of sources is not going to be a substitute for addressing behavioral problems. There is no source that is so reliable that it can't be misused by an editor who wants to misuse it. Consulting multiple sources, and varying the sources used, so the article doesn't become too locked into a single narrative is crucial, as is recognizing where the author is developing original ideas the acceptance of which needs to be checked in other secondary sources (easy to spot as it usually follows the format of "The past scholars were wrong. What they didn't understand was x. I propose ....") The main problem presented by foreign language sources is that they can't be verified by other editors. Seraphim System (talk) 12:49, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
Statement by NugTo be honest, the idea of excluding foreign language sources seems somewhat xenophobic. Surely we don't want to go down that path. Given that many WW2 articles use Russian language sources, I don't think Paul Siebert has really thought this proposal through. Paul has just recently returned to Wikipedia after a five year break in April 2018, I'm not sure how much weight should be given to his statement, as it seems more about perpetuating his past battleground grievances rather than any real new insight on the present situation.
One could accuse Volunteer Marek of many things, but misconstruing sources or use of unreliable sources definitely is not one of them. Note that IceWhiz has filed this case against VM two days after a similar case was filed against himself. That smacks of a classic battleground tactic on the part of IceWhiz. I think WP:BOOMERANG applies here. --Nug (talk) 01:24, 7 July 2018 (UTC) Statement by power~enwikiI agree with various editors (including GoldenRing) that this dispute is not suited to WP:AE. I recommend referring this to WP:MEDCOM to attempt to determine which references are reliable on the various disputed articles, with an explicit note that discretionary TBANs of either Volunteer Marek or Icewhiz from ARBEE (excluding MEDCOM proceedings) are permitted to any admin that feels it necessary; I don't believe they are necessary now but feel there is consensus to allow any admin to apply such a TBAN without appeals/drama if these editors continue to be disruptive (though both editors should be allowed to participate in any MEDCOM proceedings). power~enwiki (π, ν) 04:05, 7 July 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Vanamonde93After making yet another effort to understand this mess, I have to agree with GoldenRing that understanding who is being disruptive requires understanding who is wrong or right with respect to the source material. I do not believe AE is equipped to handle that, and I do not think we would be serving the encyclopedia if we t-ban both parties simply because we do not have the time and knowledge to discover who is in the right. Aside from being unfair and potentially counter-productive in this case, such a sanction would have the effect of provoking disruption in a number of other areas, because there is no shortage of editors (well, accounts, anyway) who would be willing to face a t-ban if their "opponents" also received one. I acknowledge that I recently recommended a "plague on both your houses approach", but that was in a case where the disagreements did not involve subtle points in non-English sources, and the attitude problems were much worse. My advice at this point would be to kick this to ARBCOM, much as I hate to say so. Vanamonde (talk) 09:59, 7 July 2018 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning Volunteer Marek
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Adamgerber80
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request for Adamgerber80
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Nauriya (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 22:35, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Adamgerber80 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/India-Pakistan#Standard_discretionary_sanctions :
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 03/07/2018 Reverted a vandal-undoing IP with a misleading edit summary.
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- [94] A stray IP vandalized Regional power by erasing a longstanding sourced content.
- [95] Another IP then came along and undid that vandalism.
- [96] But then Adamgerber80 steps in to revert the vandalism-undoing IP with the misleading edit summary of "Back to sourced version.
- This is shocking. Everyone can see that this was a misleading edit summary because in the edit Adamgerber80 actually removed longstanding sourced content. Since this edit involved erasing Pakistan's name from the list of regional powers in South Asia, this comes under the purview of [WP:ARBIPA]]. Adamgerber80 made no sign of accepting this as a "mistake", no self-revert was made and the edit war was continued by others soon after. Thus, I believe this is a case of WP:TE One diff may not be deserve a sanction but again this user is not a newbie making first timer mistakes that we just pass over it.
- [97] Not sure how its relevant, but displaying the block log just in case its needed.
- @Sdmarathe, the IP on History of Gilgit Baltistan shows geolocation in Pakistan. You have provided a link to Wiki-explorer's long term abuse case but all of their IPs have geolocation in India. So you are incorrect when you say Adamgerber80 was reverting a Wikiexplorer sock. It was an edit war over content.
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Adamgerber80
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Adamgerber80
This seems to be a misrepresentation of the series events of not an assumption of WP:AGF. First, I have numerous (greater than 10 edits) on Regional power going all the way back to 10 September 2017. Also, I have been extremely active on the article talk page regarding discussions of multiple countries (nothing to do with Pakistan's inclusion or exclusion). Yes, that edit was a mistake on my part but not out of malice. If you look carefully, there is another editor [98] who edits (June 28) between the vandal IP edit (June 28) and the restoration of the content by the other IP (July 3). On a page, which sees a high degree of vandalism, I reverted back to an edit by a registered editor. This is what I tend to do and add a summary like back to good version or sourced version. Yes, I should have paid more attention to the content but the gap of days between those edits might have caused me to make a mistake. In my defense, when you have more than 2000 pages on your watchlist with a limited time, one can make a human mistake. Now, I have not edited since then to be able to rectify my mistake which I would not have, given no one notified me including the person who filed this WP:ARE. I do see now that another editor did revert me and there is some discussion regarding that on the article talk page which I will join in. If some admins do feel that I have a partisan view of this (give my nationality), like this editor here, then please feel free to go through my edits([99],[100], [101], [102]). I have watched over numerous South-Asian military related pages (which is my interest) and have not shown any bias against anyone. On the contrary, I overlook many pages of Pakistani Armed Forces and have reverted vandalism on them multiple times. If it matters, please free to have a look at my block-log which was sometime ago (year 2016) because of a WP:COPYVIO and little understanding of policies. The blocking admin can testify to the fact that I have been very careful since then and even helped her with other WP:COPYVIO issues. Just as a final note, here I am not accusing anyone, but merely making an observation. The filing editor and I have no previous interaction whatsoever. Our intersect of pages is extremely limited and moreover the editor has no contributions on Regional power even now. In a different world, an editor would revert your edit and ask you to explain your edit if they are unfamiliar with you. Here the editor is not even involved on that page and yet files a complaint here based on another editors edit comment. This leads me to believe that there is something more to this complaint then meets the eye. Also, I am happy to have the CU check if the original vandal IP was me in disguise. Happy to answer any more questions or concerns anybody might have. Adamgerber80 (talk) 20:40, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
- To illustrate my point further, I present exhibit A. An unrelated incident which happened with me soon after this WP:ARE was filed. @KNHaw: reverted my vandalism reversal on Dawood Ibrahim and left me a note at User_talk:Adamgerber80#July_2018. When I engaged him, he realized his mistake and self reverted. His first instinct was to leave me a warning on my page and my first instinct was to engage them which seemed like an honest mistake, not to report each other to WP:AE. KNHaw is in a very similar position with experience and having no interaction or intersection with me whatsoever. @KNHaw: Sorry for using that incident as an exhibit, this was not to report you or accuse you but simply show that we are all indeed human and make genuine mistakes. In addition, having some time looking around, I have a strong suspicion that this editor filed this WP:ARE at behest of other editor(s) who are unable to do so because of policy reasons. In saying so, I do "not" wish to cause a WP:BOOMERANG but illustrate a concern I had raised sometime earlier at an admin's page User_talk:Vanamonde93#Proxy_war_brewing. I do "not" wish to point fingers or file a formal complaint because I am honestly tired of following the numerous forum discussions that have occurred in the last few months. Even currently if you have look at Regional power has turned into a WP:BATTLEGROUND with many editors (including the complaint filer who has not edited the page but somehow discovered this edit[103]) having suddenly turned up there with no prior history of editing the page. Adamgerber80 (talk) 01:06, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
- Replying to the question raised (based on looking at the history), there is a registered editor whose edit 4 mins later and inadvertently masks the first vandal IPs edit ([104]). This is probably what did me in because when the vandal undoing IP came in 5 days later, I went back to the most stable version which I wrongfully assumed was this one. I am a little disconcerted with the continued assumption of bad faith in both filing this ARE and the current comments ([105],[106]) partly because of my nationality. I have watched the page for some time (8-9 months), reverted vandalism on it multiple times, and even discussed inclusion and exclusion of countries (Nigeria, Egypt, Kazakhstan, others). None of these edits on that page even once had anything to with India or Pakistan. If I had an "agenda" to fulfill then I would have showed up there pushing for my supposed POV (Talk:Regional power is a great testament of it). I still fail to understand what was the motive to file this ARE from a then uninvolved experienced editor, having never interacted with me even before they requested a clarification from me. Nor did any of the other editors who watched over the page, notified me of my error (I assume they were done in by the reason as me). If they had found my clarification unsatisfactory then the filing of this ARE would have seemed justified (in my mind). Another note, my edit was "not" a content dispute and there was "no" content dispute nor has this point been up for debate when I edited the page. Lastly, I will be offline and might not be able to reply for the next 48-72 hours.
Statement by Kleuske
From an uninvolved standpoint, i'd say Hanlon's Razor applies. Why suspect malice when a mistake suffices to explain the facts presented? Intervening good faith anons have confused me more than once. Errare humanum est. A (lifted) block in 2016 has no bearing on this case. Kleuske (talk) 20:16, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
Statement by NadirAli
I do have some difficulty understanding why Adamgerber80, who says they have been active on Regional power since 2017, did not revert the first IP which did the vandalism instead of the second IP which reverted the vandalism. The vandalism in which Pakistan's name was removed from the list by the IP took place on 28 June.[107] Another IP corrected it on 3 July.[108] Where was Adamgerber80 during those 5 days? His edit history shows he was active in those five days.[109] So why did he not revert the vandal IP? Why did he only step in to revert the vandalism-undoing IP?[110]
Of course, Adamgerber80 can be given the benefit of the doubt. So I think this incident can be passed over Nauriya, especially in light of Adamgerber80's retrospective talkpage comment here.[111] But what can't be passed over is the behavior of User:Orientls on that same article.
The real problem on Regional power is this edit[112] by Orientls. In it, Orientls basically blanked references added by Mar4d, as well as any old content about Pakistan's status as a regional power, without even providing an edit summary for explanation. This is a vandal as well as tendentious edit.
Nor has Orientls been active on the article's talkpage nor had any activity on that article before that. What is interesting is that Orientls is an account which has only made 182 edits in the past 4 years [113] which raises socking and sleeper account questions.
His edit history also looks aggressive. See for example his aggressive/incivil comment to Joshua Jonathan here[114] and his condescending demands (to which he has no right anyway) on TurboCop's talkpage here.[115]
I would recommend no action, besides perhaps a mild warning, for Adamgerber80. The real problem is Orientls. He is the one admins will need to deal with.--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 03:08, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
- Sdmarathe, I looked at the thread you linked and wasn't aware of it until you pointed it out. Not being prior aware of it means I did not participate in it. You shouldn't accuse me like that unless you can point out which one of those people is me.--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 20:51, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Thryduulf
@NadirAli: I haven't got time to look into this in any sort of detail, but if you believe that action against Orientls is needed it will likely be much better to file a separate enforcement action request regarding them as they are neither the filer nor the subject of this request. Thryduulf (talk) 10:58, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Sdmarathe
Filer never edited this board before or participated in the discussion or the article and has botched a number of edits while he was filing this report.[116][117]
This is a simple content dispute that has been inflamed by a number of editors preparing for tag team edit warring on an online forum, dedicated towards propaganda and bias.
Mar4d used the term "vandalism" for describing a good faith edit.[118]
NadirAli is distracting from one-side and blaming other side for their completely constructive edits and calling them a "vandal", "socking", "sleeper" and misrepresenting a valid concern[119] as "condescending demands". @GoldenRing: have a look at the conduct of NadirAli here, he is again trying to deceive others for clearing editors of one side by engaging in gross misrepresentation, personal attacks and battleground mentality. Also have a look at his recent topic ban violation while he was engaging in same battleground mentality as evidenced by the edit summary he used.[120]
I am surprised by the actions of Nauriya,[121] Mar4d[122] and NadirAli[123] that they are deliberately referring a good faith and potentially constructive edit[124] as "vandalism" which strikes me as battleground mentality.
NadirAli's misrepresentations are large in quantity. He mentions that Adamgerber80 restored to a "vandalized" version of the page that removed Pakistan. If the NadirAli bothered to look into the diffs, he would realize that the "longstanding" version in fact DOES NOT LIST PAKISTAN as a regional power. Please avoid spreading falsehood NadirAli. The diffs are there for everyone to see :) Sdmarathe (talk) 16:22, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
- Masem, another thing I'd like to point out is that these certain users misrepresent evidence by making mole out of hill. Adamgerber80 and everyone else on History of Gilgit-Baltistan[125] was actually reverting an active LTA.[126] These certain users attempts to deceive others to get their opponents sanctioned anyhow, and that is the biggest reason behind this whole mess as evident by this original report as well as the report below. Neither are actionable, however they never really take rest from throwing mud into the wall after already knowing that it is not going to stick. Sdmarathe (talk) 16:18, 7 July 2018 (UTC)
Statement by 2Joules
Confirmed sockpuppet's comments removed, please see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/FreeatlastChitchat Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 12:34, 7 July 2018 (UTC) 2Joules (talk) 08:12, 7 July 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Vanamonde93
I cannot recall previous interactions with the filer, but I've been on the periphery of this conflict for a while, and am acquainted with the other protagonists. Adamgerber generally keeps their head down and edits with due regard for source material and consensus, rather than blindly warring over content they dislike. In this particular instance, they have stated that the first revert was a mistake (an easy one to make) and I'm inclined to take that at face value. I would not recommend action here. All the rest of you, meanwhile, please go and read WP:NOTVAND. Calling people vandals when they aren't can get you blocked. Vanamonde (talk) 11:15, 7 July 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Mar4d
I will just make an exception to Sdmarathe's claim regarding the longstanding version. As was noted in the section below regarding WP:TAGTEAM, the content which got removed has been present in the article along with sources for several years [127]. Please don't attempt to mislead fellow editors on something as obvious and easy to verify. Mar4d (talk) 11:18, 7 July 2018 (UTC)
Statement by مھتاب احمد
The more I am reading the article histories the more I believe the former AE case did not successfully deal with all the problem editors. Thats why the nationalistic war has, instead of becoming history, has carried on to the remaining editors who escaped the mass topic ban. I think we can add RaviC and Razer2115 to the list of problem editors. RaviC's editing is hostile[128] and he has a habit of reverting others, who are adding non-contentious citations, with vague edit summaries claiming "POV"[129], just like My Lord.[130] Rzvas does the same.[131] The modus operandi of stonewalling is alike. Similar story with Razer2115 who ironically supported the same users at ARCA[132] who he opposed at ARE with aspersions.[133]
Adamgerber80 also seems to do edit wars, for example broke 3RR with 4 reverts here[134][135][136][137]. In some of his edit summaries he claimed the IP was a block evading sock. No evidence was provided for this claim. He also edit warred quite a bit on Sindhudesh. [138][139][140] — Preceding unsigned comment added by مھتاب احمد (talk • contribs)
- Masem Have you checked Adamgerber80's history of edit warring, he broke 3RR with 4 reverts here[141][142][143][144]. He also edit warred on Sindhudesh. [145][146][147] In some of his edit summaries he claimed the IP was a block evading sock. No evidence was provided at the time for this claim. No definite finding existed at the time to justify those reverts and edit summaries either. مھتاب احمد (talk) 14:18, 7 July 2018 (UTC)
- {{U}Masem}} Obvious vandalism? Really? I think thats just stretching it too far. It was a content dispute when you look back to when the constant reverting started on 29 April.[148] Follow the series of reverts after that diff and you will see that it was not reverting blatant vandalism at all. It was participation in edit warring , (with users who were later topic banned), over a content dispute. And are you telling me that Adamgerber80 knew in April about IP socks from an off site forum's thread of July? Thats anachronism. And how does WP:AGF mean every IP should be treated as a sock? مھتاب احمد (talk) 16:27, 7 July 2018 (UTC)
Result concerning Adamgerber80
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- I cannot see how Adamgerber's actions given their history on the page in question and in relationship to actions on other pages could be seen as anything other than an AGF mistake - I know I've done similar when I see IP edits on my watchlist on articles that draw vandals, myself restoring the wrong version. If someone pointed out that they restored the wrong version, Adamgerber would have been able to rectify it under WP:3RRNO. Based on history of these other pages, I agree that the situation is similar to what Sdmarathe above describes: an off-site forum upset with how WP's handles Pakistan's status and fighting it with propaganda. I don't believe Nauriya here is coupled with that, nothing in their immediate history shows such problems, and in fact they seem well aware of the socking issue in the I/P topic area; this again to me seems like Nauriya may have been jumping the gun in making sure this off-site forum wasn't using a sock. In other words, this is a case where two accidental wrongs do make a right - I don't see any need for any action here, just a reminder to Nauriya to AGF, and first try to alert the user to make sure it was a mistake (see the next immediate section on Adamgerber's talk page that shows them quickly helping to clarify a situation; I'm pretty confident that they would have done the same if they were alerted to the mistaken wrong version.) --Masem (t) 13:06, 7 July 2018 (UTC)
- @مھتاب احمد: the first set of 4 reversions all look like it is restored content removed by one IP address over and over (following MBlaze's own reversions, and followed by yet another editor to revert). That's reverting obvious vandalism, which is exempt from 3RR. And while the other set of three is just at 3RR, it is in response to another editor that was not engaging in BRD; nor was 3RR exceeded (plus, that was back in April, a bit too long ago). And given the situation with this offsite forum, calling an IP a sock evader, making the same changes the sock was making without comment, is not too far out of line. --Masem (t) 15:34, 7 July 2018 (UTC)
Dan the Plumber
WP:ANEW is the right venue but I will handle this. --NeilN talk to me 23:47, 6 July 2018 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Dan the Plumber
I asked him to revert, User_talk:Dan_the_Plumber#1RR, but he replied that "RT is not a RS". (What I can see from Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard it has been discussed many times, it looks as if it can be used with attribution.) Huldra (talk) 22:20, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Dan the PlumberStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Dan the PlumberIf I reverted some RT report it was because it was superfluous, and not necessary. Using RT on Syria related articles is a provocation really anyhow, and hardly innocently used. On Terrorist showing up , I want to state the Wikipedia Username policy that usernames that are provocative are meant to be prohibited. The following is s serious report. Terrorist, Huldra, and your ilk, look at this report, serious report, but you couldn't give a stuff could you. Yu'r more exrcised by this here 1RR report aren't you. Scary. Statement by ShrikeThis is not correct forum for this complain.Its not arbcom decision so there nothing to enforce.Shrike (talk) 22:41, 6 July 2018 (UTC) Statement by Beyond My KenI agree with Shrike, but also wish to comment that RT is not a reliable source for much of anything, considering that it's a Russian propaganda outlet. Its use should be highly circumscribed - probably only to represent the official Russian government opinion on something, as it is not an independent source. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:08, 6 July 2018 (UTC) Statement by terrorist96He was warned 3 days ago here [149] Terrorist96 (talk) 23:11, 6 July 2018 (UTC) Result concerning Dan the Plumber
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Orientls
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Orientls
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- NadirAli (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 00:10, 7 July 2018 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Orientls (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/India-Pakistan#Standard_discretionary_sanctions :
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 5 July 2018 Vandalism, removed old content sourced content and he also blanked additional scholarly refs added by Mar4d. Provided no explanation in edit summary. He also had no edit on that page or its associated talk page before that vandal edit.
Additional comments: What is interesting is that Orientls is an account which has only made less than 190 edits in the past 4 years[150] which raises socking and sleeper account questions. This diff also seems to indicate a botched attempt of meatpuppetry [151] where he inadvertently seems to have copy pasted something else, probably from a chat browser, which indicates that he is doing edits under instructions for somebody else. This diff [152] confirms my suspicions further.
His edit history also looks aggressive. See for example his aggressive/incivil comment to Joshua Jonathan here[153] and his condescending demands (to which he has no right anyway) on TurboCop's talkpage here.[154]--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 00:10, 7 July 2018 (UTC)
- To editor Winged Blades of Godric: it doesn't have to be a chat browser. It could be something else. This diff[155] shows a botched attempt at copy paste of the entire talkpage, with the result that the talk page became duplicated. My feeling is that this sleeper account (indicated by their low levels of activity since it registered in 2014) was given a whole talk page to replace the existing talk page but messed up. I am also quite surprised that you aren't taking this diff seriously because I recall in another case you took similar activity seriously.--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 03:33, 7 July 2018 (UTC)
To editor Sdmarathe: This unexplained blanking[156] of old content and sources was vandalism. There is no definition by which it can be called a "constructive edit". This blanking edit was even before Orientls came to the talkpage.
This diff[157] is incivility. Read these parts "Do you understand what is an WP:OR or WP:SYNTH? You clearly don't. "
and "since it doesn't you can't make connection only because you feels to".
The message[158] to TurboCop is inappropriate because that disclousre is TurboCop's business and not Orientls'. We can't say its a case of impersonation with certainty when admins have not even decided on that yet.
I also find your AE statement inappropriate.--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 03:56, 7 July 2018 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Notified on talk page--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 00:13, 7 July 2018 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Orientls
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Orientls
Statement by WBG
I didn't have time to look through the diffs. in their entirety (me thinks that it is a content-dispute and out of scope for AE but I might be wrong) but if we were conferring awards for lack of assumption of good faith, the diff. provided in support of the aspersion that some chat forum is being used will make it.
NadirAli, can you please leave your creative thinking skills, (which borders on nonsense), for some time?∯WBGconverse 03:21, 7 July 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Sdmarathe
Regardless of my above message, NadirAli is still WP:NOTGETTINGIT that there was no vandalism.[159]
There is nothing wrong with that message, and this other message was absolutely correct given that impersonation is not allowed and the suspicious account never addressed the impersonation obviously because the account's purpose was to engage in disruption while using identity of a long dormant account. I wonder why NadirAli feels this offended. We cant allow impersonation only because you feel otherwise and you are testing edges of your topic ban by talking about an account who's edits are not supposed to be discussed by you since you are topic banned from the entire subject.[160]
NadirAli lacks the understanding of what is a vandalism and wants to treat everyone to be as deceptive as him or even a little bit, given his own history of siteban and topic ban evasion that was never brought into attention until very recently.[161][162] NadirAli has been making these allegations against other editors [163] by falsely claiming that others are making edits for someone else and he never interacted the editor contrary to great deal of with NadirAli.[164]
NadirAli is bordering on objectionable behavior - noting his gross WP:CIR issues and battleground mentality here alone, including the recent topic ban(link) violation where he was engaging in same disruptive battleground mentality per his edit summary.[165] Ping GoldenRing. I think we might need to consider some reprimand about this behavior . Sdmarathe (talk) 03:30, 7 July 2018 (UTC)
- Mar4d's misconduct and assumption of bad faith is concerning. Here's an example of Mar4d's continued misconduct on Talk:Regional power, where he says other user is "hiding behind one non-Western source".[166] And on this board, he dismisses his opposition as "WP:TAGTEAM", and seeks sanctions against them when they are not in violation. If I recall correctly, it was this same misconduct that led topic ban on him. But now I see it is becoming worse that he evaluates sources by their ethnicity and terms good faith constructive edit as "vandalism". Sdmarathe (talk) 12:20, 7 July 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Mar4d
I'll try to keep this short.
The content concerned (which was blanked unilaterally) has been present on the article for several years [167]. Until it was removed in drive-by IP vandalism. I won't comment on Adamgerber80's restoration of the IP, given he has claimed it was in error. But right after a user restored the article to its longstanding version, Sdmarathe's first ever edit on that page is to restore the IP's vandalism. Then Lorstaking makes his first ever edit, restoring the IP's edit with the misleading summary "your SCO/G20 references don't make point", even though it included old references.
When the longstanding version was reinstated along with references, Orientls' first ever edit is blanking the section back to Lorstaking's version [168] [169] with no edit summary, which itself should be sanctionable. He did not explain his revert, and commented on the talk 13 hours later. All three of course have no history on the article, but edit the same topics, and added similar original research and personal opinions on the talk.
Regarding NadirAli's concerns on WP:MEAT, at the very least there is substantive indication of WP:TAGTEAM which ought not to be ignored. I would like to see scrutiny of the named accounts in addition to monitoring of the article for WP:NPOV issues, and at the very least actionable measures with regard to Orientls to prevent conduct-related damage. Best regards, Mar4d (talk) 10:58, 7 July 2018 (UTC)
- @Sdmarathe: Source details are certainly an issue, as you are emphasising one source in opposition to ten strong references. You have been long enough on Wikipedia supposedly to know by now what WP:WEIGHT stipulates. Please don't diverge this discussion off-rail. I'm not the one who's mysteriously turning up on articles, or edit warring and reverting WP:NOCON edits. Mar4d (talk) 12:30, 7 July 2018 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Orientls
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.